Biblical Answer to Wearing Masks or Not

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Welcome back, and as promised, we said we were going to readdress the issue of whether to wear masks or not.

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Why are we readdressing this issue? Because, well, we got a lot of feedback last time when we had

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Dr. Silvestro in, and we talked about masks, and people felt that we just didn't get time to giving the biblical perspective.

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How does the Bible give us answers on things like this? And so we wanted to be able to do that for you.

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So this week, Bud and I are gathering together, and we brought in a heavy hitter.

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Well, okay, actually, if you've seen him in person, you realize he's actually not that heavy. I think he's lighter than both of us,

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Bud, I could be mistaken. He's got a little bit more than skin and bones, but not much, not much.

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But we welcome someone who is not new to podcasting, and actually not new to this podcast.

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You may have heard him in the past when we talked about some history, and that is Andrew Smith from the

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His Story podcast. So welcome, or it's actually today in His Story, right?

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Yep, today in Church History. Yeah. So, Bud, how are you?

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I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for asking. Bud made me close the shades back there,

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Andrew, because I know you guys are down there in that sunny state, and you don't know what snow is, and with the windows open, it looked like it was just a whiteout, and he thought that, you know,

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I got tons of snow or something. You know, he doesn't know the difference. I'll confess the problem was, we had painted this week at the church, and I left with just this throbbing migraine.

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So that flash of brilliant snow set back there in your background was just really too much.

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I'm just glad to know that you left because you had a migraine, not that I was...

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And it wasn't premier preaching? He was hoping I left under conviction.

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You know, I actually did have, Andrew, I don't know if you've ever had that experience where people leave under conviction, but I remember once I was preaching at a conference.

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Most people didn't know who I was, there were only a handful of people who knew me. And I'm preaching this passage,

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I was basically going through much of Genesis on this basically the life of Joseph, dealing with the topic of perseverance.

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And I was just teaching on, you know, Joseph's life, and then you end up seeing throughout his life that he persevered.

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And the perseverance, I think, was because he didn't get bitter toward his brothers and his circumstances.

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I think he was a man of forgiveness. And just as I'm preaching this, I mean, like a third of the people there left.

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I'm thinking it's like the worst sermon I've ever preached. I'm thinking this is horrible. This is pathetic. Like I knew because we were doing some open air all week.

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So I thought my voice was raspy. I'm figuring like people are just tired. They're just like, they just want to leave.

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And even a woman who worked for our ministry left. And I'm like, oh, man, this is so bad.

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And then like the table was mobbed afterwards. And she asked me to come over and help. And then we start getting to where we're cleaning up.

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And I'm like, just beating on myself because it was such a bad message. She's like, Andrew, you have no idea what's going on, do you? And I'm like, yeah, everyone was leaving.

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She's like, yeah, there were people like calling people, asking for forgiveness. There were people that were like repenting.

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And I'm like, I've preached that message plenty of times. Never happened again. But the one time

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I'm like thinking a third, literally, it was a third of the people left. And I'm like, this is so bad. It actually turned out that the message was penetrating.

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People were like going and addressing it, I guess. That's tremendous. So that it'd be better than hearing, you know,

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I had a migraine. But Andrew, it isn't reassuring that it wasn't your preaching that gave him a migraine?

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His preaching, no, his preaching doesn't give me a migraine. And I leave plenty convicted. Mine is a constant life of confession and repentance.

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I ask my bride. You know what? I learned a long time ago not to try to gauge the effectiveness of the sermon by the deportment of people.

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And I actually had a wise minister tell me when I was really young and beginning in the ministry that you never preach as well as you think you do.

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And you never preach as bad as you think you do. So I don't know how to take that.

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But that's probably fairly accurate. You know, I don't want to get into trying to gauge what the

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Spirit of the Lord is doing. But it was weird that Bud left so quickly because he's one of the last ones to stay.

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And I enjoy speaking to him. But I get to talk to him. I knew we were doing this. Yeah. Well, you know, this is neat because you, so Bud is, you're

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Bud's pastor. And that even, that turned around. Actually, that was, it came about because the three of us were together at G3.

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And we just went out for dinner. And I don't believe either of you knew each other before that dinner.

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Is that correct? I'm going to take the silence as yes.

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They're thinking silence on a podcast is usually not good. And silence usually is agreement in business.

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But I don't know that in this circumstance. I'm trying to remember. Yeah, I honestly don't know.

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Yeah, I don't either. I think we were friends on Facebook. Does that count? That may have to count.

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Well, hey, look, let's get into our topic. Andrew, we wanted you on. This has become, even in many churches, this idea of wearing masks or not has become a divisive issue.

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I've noticed, I don't know if you have, it just seems ever since these lockdowns and COVID and all this stuff, our whole culture has been less gracious with one another.

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People seem like at workplaces, I heard from a small business owner, a friend of mine, who he said, just people at work, they have no tolerance for anyone anymore.

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And it just seems that our society has changed with everyone being alone, being kind of locked up.

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And it just seems that everything triggers, I mean, some parts of our culture were triggered at a drop of a dime before.

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But it seems even more so. I don't know how it is down in Florida, but you go to a store here and you have people like, do you have a mask on?

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Get your mask on. Mask on, cover your nose. I actually had to get permission to not wear a mask on a flight.

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It's crazy. People seem to be getting very divisive. And I'm hearing now from some pastors

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I talk to that one guy called me last week and asked, what do we do about masks?

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In our church, our church has a position, I mentioned this last time we were on with Anthony, we don't wear masks.

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If people want to wear masks, they can. We have sections where people want to sit separated from each other, they can.

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The majority of people sit in the center. And then on the kind of the wings, on each wing, we have some seats that are separated apart.

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And if you want to wear a mask, we feel to wear masks, they sit in the center section, fine. But if someone's wearing a mask, we try to keep a distance.

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We respect them for that. But we don't demand it. We don't ask for everyone to wear one. I don't know, how is it down there in Florida?

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Do you guys have issues with members wearing masks or not? Do people get upset over it? Yeah, we've not had any issues with this whatsoever.

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Our church has, just in the providence of God, actually grown numerically through all of this.

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We, at the beginning, we were meeting in a school. We've been in a school for the last three years. And when all the shutdowns occurred and everything kind of went haywire, we just continued to meet one extra week.

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And then the school called us and called me personally and said, look, with the school shutting down and everything, we can't allow your church to meet anymore in the school.

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We said, fine. We had already had a facility that was going to be ours, but it was being preoccupied by another church.

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So we got on the phone and called this church and just developed a relationship with them. And they accommodated us so that we could begin meeting in the afternoon.

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But it took about three weeks to make all of that happen. They had to make some arrangements.

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We had to make some arrangements. So there were, I think, three, maybe four weeks that we did not meet. And but then we just started meeting.

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And we have not been overly restrictive of people. We just said, come. And we want people to come.

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And if you feel like you need to keep your distance, keep your distance. If you don't want to shake hands, that's fine.

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But we don't really talk about it. It's not that we're oblivious to it, but we don't tell people what to do.

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And people haven't complained. And people generally don't even ask. They just come. I think, and Bud could probably help me on this, but I think there's just a handful of people that had masks on this morning.

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I could probably count on one hand. Yeah, I think I noticed maybe three.

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But yeah, Andrew Rapfort, we've kind of been. I guess that is a problem for this episode, huh?

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We got to go by last names. Yeah. The Rapster. We've pretty much, in my view, been taking the approach that Grace in LA has.

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Expecting people to take personal responsibility to do what they think is prudent, given their own particular health circumstances.

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They've accommodated distancing like you guys have done. I think they're also offering maybe hand sanitizer and that sort of thing if you come in.

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So they're making accommodation for that. There doesn't seem to be any real emphasis.

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And as Pastor Andrew said, we haven't had any. I don't remember discussing it with anyone, except in my desire to discuss it here with both of you.

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Yeah, and we have hand sanitizer stations for people.

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We don't want people to think that we're unclean. And if I walk by one,

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I'll put hand sanitizer on. And we have, just to keep people more cognizant, it's almost flu season anyway.

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So it's not a bad thing to stay clean. And we've had some people in our church who have not made it back yet, who have some pretty significant underlying conditions.

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And we're trying to minister to them from afar. And we actually started to have an online stream of our service, which we had never done in the past.

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And we started doing that and purchasing some more equipment to make it as qualitative as it could be.

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And we have a guy who specifically works on that, and that's his ministry, and he's done great with it.

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So we're trying to reach out to people in our community who are afraid to go to church, who will watch it on Facebook.

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We still want the gospel going out. And we want our own people who can't come because of extenuating circumstances to be able to hear the word and still be a part of our church.

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But as far as having super strict restrictions or talking about it every

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Sunday or preaching on it every Sunday, we just haven't addressed it that way.

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And our people have responded positively to that. Well, let's deal with some of the biblical arguments.

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I think the argument that I have heard the most when it comes to wearing of masks is to love your neighbor.

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That somehow, if you're not wearing a mask, you are not loving your neighbor.

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That is the argument I hear the most. So that might be a good starting place for us.

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If we are choosing not to wear a mask... Now, let's be clear. There are some people that have medical conditions that wearing a mask is actually bad for their health.

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I'm in that category. When I'm breathing in the carbon dioxide, it's not very long before I start getting very lightheaded and start having some other issues.

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So there are people that it is not in their best interest, it's not for their safety.

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But an argument that I heard in a store where I wasn't wearing a mask, and I tried to explain to a woman for health reasons, and she literally said, well, it's not for your health, it's for mine.

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And I was like, well, okay, but you're wearing a mask for your health, right?

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Or is that for mine? And so the argument people use is, well, you're supposed to love your neighbor.

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And part of loving your neighbor is to wear a mask. Do you think that that is a good argument to use when it comes to that usage of the text of Scripture?

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Who are you asking? I was asking you. You are the guest. I apologize.

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Yeah, well, obviously, we should love our neighbor as ourselves, because that's what the Scripture teaches. But I think when you begin to use the mask as sort of this test case of whether or not you love your neighbor, and whether or not you're spiritually committed to the

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Lord, as if this is some fulfilling of God's law by wearing a mask, not only do

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I think it's dishonest, I think there's a great degree of hypocrisy to that, because the bottom line is,

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I'm part of other organizations and things. I'm not going to mention their name. But they have certain policies and procedures in place in terms of when you're supposed to wear a mask and when you're not supposed to wear a mask.

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And quite frankly, it is the most hypocritical list of processes and procedures.

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They absolutely make no sense. I mean, who determines when it's okay not to wear a mask, and that's still equivalent to loving your neighbor as yourself, and when it's not okay to do that?

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Scripture does not give details on this. It gives a general principle where to love our neighbor as ourselves.

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But I think that whole trajectory of saying you're not loving your neighbor if you're not wearing a mask, or you have a bad

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Christian testimony, or you're giving Christians a bad name, I don't buy into that at all, because undergirding that is the assumption that a mask actually works and is protecting you.

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And there's plenty of medical and scientific data, people way smarter than me, who haven't bought into that.

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So why should I buy into that? And then as a minister, sort of make this blanket statement that you're not loving your neighbor as yourself if you don't wear a mask every opportunity you're given.

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I just don't buy into it. And that's why in the last episode, and I'll probably link that in the show notes, we went in the scientific, we had

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Dr. Sevestron, who wears a mask as a dentist, and he explained it's for blood splatter.

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It's not to keep them healthy, it's so that when you're working on someone's mouth, it's not getting all that into your mouth.

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But I think that one of the things, this is so used, I think that this passage in Matthew 28, 39 about loving your neighbor gets so abused that it could be used for so many things because I think the underlying argument of loving your neighbor the way so many are using it is that you have to do whatever they want.

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Well, how far does it go? I mean, if your neighbor is a serial murderer, do you let yourself be killed because that's loving your neighbor?

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I mean, I'm doing an extreme example, but when we look at this, it doesn't mean you do for your neighbor anything they want.

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I think that you brought up the issue of these masks, and this is really what convinced me, is the masks are being used for a couple things, right?

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They became an issue politically where it was a way of virtual signaling that you don't like Trump. That's when it started.

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It was like this big thing to show anyone who wore a mask was a Trump supporter.

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There was even recently a joke that went that said it'll be the easiest way to do the polling data after the election because all you've got to do is see who wears a mask and who doesn't.

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Those who wear a mask are Biden supporters, and those that don't are Trump supporters. That's how they're trying to make it sound like this is a political thing.

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I think there are some people that have a genuine fear, but as Christians, I guess,

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Andrew, what do we as Christians really have to fear? I mean, what is the worst case scenario?

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That we get COVID? And then what? We die?

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What happens to the Christian after we die? Is that a bad thing? When we look at this, what

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I'm curious of, Andrew, the way people seem to be using this passage seems to be an abuse of the context, an abuse of how they're using it because I think that they're using this argument to say we should be doing anything our neighbor wants if it's better for your neighbor.

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In Matthew 28, sorry, 2239, what's the context there?

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What is the view? What does it mean when we say that we should be loving our neighbor as ourselves?

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Well, I mean, obviously, that's a summary of the law, and the law is not subjective. The law is very objective.

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It's crystal clear. It's black and white. I preached from Galatians 3 this morning and it speaks about quoting the

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Old Testament that we're to obey all the things written in the book of the law.

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So the law is black and white. It's as black and white as our Bibles, and there are specific demands of God that flow from his holy character.

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And so there is an objectivity to love that conforms to what the law says.

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And that's another interesting point because these mask suggestions in some places, at least here in Florida, there are places where there's a demarcation between what is a law and what is not a law.

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It's a suggestion to ask. So a Christian couldn't say, well, this is an issue of Romans 13 when the sign on the door says we suggest you wear a mask, or we would like you to wear a mask.

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Well, okay, there's things that I would like a lot of people to do, and I don't wear a sign around my neck saying that.

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So that tells me that if I don't want to do it, I don't have to do it. But I think in Matthew 22, the summary of the law is love of God and love of neighbor.

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And you can know that you're loving God, and you can know that you're loving your neighbor. The objective measurement of that is found in the black and white laws of God.

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And so it's easy to see if you're doing that. The problem with Christians today that are making this issue of loving your neighbors yourself by wearing a mask is that that is such an easy thing to say, but how can you objectively prove that someone is not loving their neighbors themselves if they choose not to wear a mask in a certain context?

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You can't prove that. Yeah, and I think because you hit the point of the context of that passage is a summarization of the law, right?

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Really specifically the Ten Commandments. The first four commandments are about loving God, and the last six commandments are about loving your neighbor.

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And so he's saying it can all be summarized in these two. Now, last week Bud and I did a whole episode dealing with Joe Biden who's saying these two laws are the ones that govern his entire way of being in service.

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So I don't know that we can look at his record and say that that really follows with loving

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God and loving his neighbor with some of the policies he supports. They seem to go against it.

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But this passage seems to get abused because they don't see it as a summarization of the law.

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They don't see this as they're trying to use this as a command of its own to say you do everything your neighbor wants.

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Now you brought up the Romans 13 because that's actually the second most used argument is to obey authorities.

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Now in some states there have been the, as we look at some states that mandate it and it is interesting because in many of the states what

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I'm seeing is they cannot mandate you wear a mask because of health reasons. So they can't mandate it for the individual.

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What they've been doing is mandating it for the businesses. And so the businesses are required to have everyone wear a mask but the people they can't require that of.

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And so in some places down there in Florida where it's more a suggestion in other places

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I think they're trying to mandate it but they're doing it through businesses is that really fitting under a

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Romans 13 issue if and it might be different if it actually was a law on the books but if it's a governor who just makes the decree you're gonna wear masks or states that businesses through the health department the businesses to stay in business have to require masks is that really fitting under a

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Romans 13 issue in your opinion? Yeah I would say not.

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Well this was the this was one of the things that when all of this first started you heard these appeals to Romans 13 so yeah

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I think most churches did the obligatory thing in saying okay we'll shut down until we kind of see what is going on with this and then as more and more data comes in really from the testing that affects the fatality rate the mortality you started seeing well you know what this is really not the black death we don't see millions of bodies stacked up in the street like we were originally warned about and then

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I think it sort of shifted into this love thy neighbor thing but many churches and I know pastor you and I both know several churches in the

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Jacksonville area I know other pastors from around the country that are in jurisdictions of a mayor who has mandated masks in public spaces including churches so the question then becomes well you know let's say in our circumstance the nearest big town is

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Jacksonville I don't know that the mayor of Tallahassee has actually done that so you've got two competing authorities it's a recommendation so from a

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Romans 13 perspective as a citizen blessed to be in America we really have to question what that authority is because it's not a law and in our case in Jacksonville I've talked to two police officers with the

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Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and they have been explicitly told you know what if some store calls us because someone comes in and they won't wear a mask and unless there's an issue of violence we're told specifically we're not going to respond to that so there's even no enforcement to these recommended mandates but you do see a lot of churches that are still following that because the mayor has said it we're going to in a

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Romans 13 spirit obey that we're going to submit to that magistrate which causes for the parishioners causes for the congregants a lot of questions am

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I being faithful by wearing a mask to church or I can't wear one like Rappaport said you know you've got people with medical conditions that can't so it's a huge mess really and the thing that concerns me is how do you counsel somebody like that what's it look like to be faithful with such a you know you and I are black and white

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Andrew's black and white when it comes to truth and objective principles from scripture but this surely seems like a gray area for a lot of Christians not just with Christians this is divisive literally as we're talking and as we're recording this

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I just got a text message from Justin Pearson some that follow on Paul Jack's live know who

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Pastor Justin is he he had a death in his family and they literally he's texting me just now about a fight that broke out in his family over masks they started cursing out one another these are unbelievers but they're cursing out one another and refusing to show up to a funeral if everybody doesn't wear a mask and it is interesting because he was saying that it ended up getting into a fight over Trump so it's virtual signaling there but I just I look at this and say okay

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I don't I think it's an abuse of the passage love your neighbor I don't think it really fits in under Romans 13 especially if it's not actually a law and when you look at it this is a law in some states where what they've ended up doing is they've turned to you know saying well we're going to sue this law because it's a law that actually works against some people's health and so as I look at this the next argument

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I've heard the most comes out of Romans 14 and that is that you know when we have someone who's weaker this is the meat offered unto idols if you look at Romans 14 and this is where you know you have this issue of conscience if you have someone who is a weaker brother you don't want them to stumble so the issue being addressed there is you have meat that's offered unto idols you know you see someone who is struggling with it you know something that's against their conscience the way that this ends up becoming argued is you know the food is nothing you know there's nothing to it but your brother thinks there's something to it because he came out of that idol worship and for the sake of the weaker brother and really

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Romans 14 before I ask you this Andrew is the question of does this fit our circumstance

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I do want to give a caveat here because there's something that is also people don't recognize in Romans 14 when you look at Romans 14 there's so many people that will say well for the sake of the gospel you basically you got to be willing to do anything you know if you have a choice between offending a brother in Christ or an unbeliever you offend the brother for the sake of sharing the gospel that's exactly the opposite of what

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Romans 14 teaches that is Romans 14 you have the choice between offending a brother in Christ or an unbeliever who do you offend you offend the unbeliever and you care about the brother in Christ you worry about his conscience so that's a side note no extra charge for that thanks

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Andrew but Andrew does this really apply to Romans 14 and the argument of caring for a weaker brother who is struggling with mask wearing does that fit does that text properly fit wearing masks well this is going to go back to an article that I wrote that I never published that well if you would have published it we could have been done right here we just would have read that yeah we could have read that and been done with this come on when is that going to be written it's already been written it's written but it's not been put to the public yet you know

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Bud I do believe you are the editor at Striving for Eternity so you know maybe you could get your hands on this from your pastor we could stick it over on there if he's you know we'll link you in and that'll be it

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I can't plagiarize I have it I just can't do anything with it and that's okay why don't you create a user

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ID form and just put it up there I already live in a

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Romans 7 world I don't need to add this to the burdens that I constantly battle so you want to submit to your leadership

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Romans 13 in a more biblical way that's exactly right more of a Hebrews passage so I mean what do you think is this really caring for a weaker brother

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I just don't buy into that argument you know fundamentally speaking because we have a responsibility as Christians to promote the truth so if I know my brother is being led astray in a certain area

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I think there's a responsibility that I have to address that you know and I think of Hebrews 13 17 obey your leaders and submit to them for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account let them do this with joy and not with grief for this would be unprofitable for you so Christians are to obey their

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Christian leaders their elders but it says they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account what troubles me is that there are

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Christian leaders and Christian elders who are who are preaching this idea that if you aren't wearing a mask you're not loving your neighbor as yourself if you're not if you're not wearing a mask you're disrespecting the weaker brother but there is an account that elders and pastors are going to have to give to the

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Lord for how they treat these issues in the context of their own church and so there might be an occasion where even a member of a congregation goes to an elder that they are to submit to they are to respect and they are to love and to tell them that they're going to give an account to the

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Lord for how they're dealing with this very subject of wearing masks all the restrictions and what they are telling their parishioners they can do and they cannot do

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I think this is a tremendously serious thing so when

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I see other pastors write articles that suggest this is an issue of making a weaker brother stumble or this is an issue of not loving your neighbor as yourself those people will stand before God accountable for how they are using scripture to tell other

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Christians how to live to me that is the biggest issue there's going to be disagreement but what

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I hate to see is pastors buying into pastors buying into this huge narrative that just assumes masks protect everything that assumes all of this and they're going to give an account for the way that they handle this and the way that they lead their congregation in terms of how to observe these things and I just I know that I have limited maybe

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I have a limited circumstance because I'm in Florida I'm in a location where people aren't taking it as seriously as maybe other parts of the world

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I'm a pastor so I'm with church people a lot of the time but I can just say this and let me just go back to the sports world because I spend a lot of time with unbelievers in the sports world where I coach kids when it's okay and I'm not speaking about any one particular organization this would be true anywhere when it's okay to you know this must be a pretty smart virus you have to wear your mask to the sporting event onto the field onto the bench but as soon as you make it to the bench you can take your mask off you know the virus is not going to attack you on the bench and on the playing field when you're breathing and sweating and there's blood everywhere but when you walk from your car to the bench you have to wear your mask

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I just and then people don't follow it the reason people don't follow it unbelievers included is because it's unreasonable and it's hypocritical on the face of it and what's troubling to me is then you go to church on Sunday and you have a pastor that preaches about the fact you're not loving your neighbor as yourself if you're not wearing a mask and you're making your weaker brother stumble and everyone in the church is wearing masks and just following this thing that is very concerning to me because these elders these leaders they will give an account are

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Christians to submit to them in their leadership absolutely but they will give an account for how they are handling this situation you know you go ahead

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I was going to say the point of Romans 14 we are to acknowledge that but the goal is not to help perpetuate their weakness we are to instill faith and not promote fear

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I mean we need to promote fear of the Lord certainly so that's the flip side pastor of what you're talking about is that we may nobly be motivated to obey our magistrate who has said you got to do this but I haven't run into the situation going into a store

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I haven't worn a mask maybe three minutes all year and stores have a little sign up saying we would like you to wear a mask no one has approached me one person and that was the funny circumstance not at all hostile so I don't encounter that where somebody is going to be bold and say

36:49

I don't love them because I'm not wearing a mask but churches are doing that and so it isn't

36:55

I know a couple of people right now that this has scared them because now their church is requiring this and I'm like no to live as Christ to die as gain we don't have that fear but it does give that appearance so if you're virtue signaling love of neighbor you may also be virtue signaling fear of death and this is what

37:16

I'm hearing from both of you and I think this is the underlying issue with masks Andrew you're talking about the fact that it's perpetuating a lie but you're talking about that it's perpetuating fear are these things that Christians should be perpetuating this is not the

37:34

Christian character Christians are not to be characterized by living in fear and we shouldn't be lying or perpetrating lies and so I think that as we look at this this is the underlying issue we end up getting to and when

37:50

I look at the masks it's crazy that it's so divisive but I think it's because of the fear that so many have been living under for these past several months they've been alone they've been separated from people no fellowship and now they're getting together and people are afraid in some areas to get together they wouldn't do this for the flu they wouldn't do this for anything else we saw with the president three days of medication done right?

38:22

not with everybody but there are cures for this there are things you can take and those that are in the worst condition there's people who for health reasons before any of this didn't go certain places and that's their own choice now it's interesting when you said

38:40

Andrew about the lie and the intelligence of this virus because I thought it was interesting

38:47

I had to get onto a flight and they required me not to wear the mask that I had because it was vented in other words it had a filter on there that gave me fresh air but they're like yes but it doesn't protect the others on the plane like okay but am

39:05

I wearing a mask to protect myself? no the actual argument they're saying is you're wearing a mask to protect everyone else so wear a mask that doesn't protect you because somehow that's going to protect everyone else but guess what they're wearing a mask that's not protecting them the mask

39:22

I'm wearing is not protecting me it's not really protecting when they sneeze or something else it doesn't really protect as much as they think it's not a cure and the fear they have is becoming irrational and so in my view as Christians should we be standing up and supporting irrational thinking but you mentioned this the fact that when we look at Romans 14 it's not that we leave that person in the state of sinning against their conscience with this issue of meat no we instruct them that that meat is nothing but until they get to understanding that we will treat them like okay

40:05

I don't want you to sin against your conscience for your sake I'll do it but it comes with instruction I would see the same thing here we instruct and that's why we're doing these two episodes we did on this is to instruct

40:15

Christians and give them both the scientific argument and now the biblical arguments why it's the case but one of the things you sent me

40:25

Bud and Andrew I'd like to address this with you if you haven't seen this that's a wonderful comment only because I'm sure this is going to be good and I just I might forget what

40:36

I want to say you know by way of maybe analogy to me the issue is what

40:45

Christians think I can control to a degree what Christians think because I'm a pastor and they

40:52

I have a platform where at least my congregation hears me and listens to me as I speak forth truth and instruct as Bud said

41:01

I'm instructing them in the truth I have less control in the unbelieving world so let me give you an example we visited

41:09

West Virginia which we do every year which is where I'm from we always end the trip with a

41:15

West Virginia football game I have some dear cousins that were able to get tickets to a

41:20

West Virginia game that hardly anyone could get tickets to so it was a privilege to be there hardly any fans there

41:26

I was one of just very few fans that was able to go and they wanted you to wear a mask during the whole game and I basically didn't do that I had one of those things that you wear around your neck but as I was leaving the facility one of the mask police that's what

41:45

I call them as I was leaving they said you need to put your mask on now as a matter of principle

41:52

I could have stood there you know with my sons watching and really made a scene where I tried to convince this assumingly this is an unbeliever full of mostly unbelievers at this game taking a stand and giving all the reasons why

42:07

I didn't think it was necessary to put a mask on but probably much like you on the airplane that's just going to be a fruitless thing it's not wise it's not my place

42:16

I don't really care so I put the mask over my nose walked by her and then pulled it down and walked out of the stadium that was the end of it but what

42:25

I will refuse to do is come to church every Sunday with a mask where I preach in a mask in the presence of other

42:36

Christians where I have influence and seemingly perpetuate a lie because the mask has become symbolic for way more than just putting it over yourself to protect yourself or to protect others so I may put it on at a

42:50

West Virginia football game but as a matter of principle I will make sure that I shake the hands or at least give a fist bump of other

43:01

Christians on Sunday mornings and that I will not wear a mask so that's just me personally but that's because to me the issue is an issue of I can't stand to see

43:12

Christians that are living in deception and leaders that are leading them that way so as a matter of principle where I can control it

43:20

I will not perpetuate the lie by wearing a mask Yeah and I think that's the thing and it's even further for some and after this break what

43:30

I'd like to do is Bud had sent an article to me and I don't know if you've seen it but this is from Christianity Today and it's titled

43:38

Christian Colleges God Wants You to Wear a Mask so I want to address the question can we make the argument that God wants us to wear a mask right after this break

43:53

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45:58

good little book it's a small book you can get through it quickly Andrew this article that was put out the title of it alone makes it sound like God is demanding that people that go to Christian colleges that God wants them to wear a mask

46:19

I mean is that something that we could argue that God has that demand on us no

46:26

I just I think that's just absolutely ridiculous and that just goes back to what

46:31

I said before it's troubling to me that it seems like Christians are willing to more than willing to lead the way in this

46:43

I expect that sort of thing from unbelievers you know to be deceived and to not have wisdom but I mean we've got the proverbs of scripture you know we have the truth we know the truth incarnate

47:00

Jesus and yet it seems like the church is just falling right along with the world in some places and other places leading the way and I have unbelieving friends who are very successful businessmen or whatever and they've not bought into this so for a

47:20

Christian president to do it it really makes me wonder what sort of things are at play here are we afraid of our status and clout in society being taken away are we afraid of lawsuits if we don't do this

47:35

I mean what is the motivation here because a true Christian who is able to be discerning because of the indwelling of the

47:43

Holy Spirit ought to be able to see through the lies and the hypocrisy yeah and I think that what

47:52

I've noticed I have noticed a trend that the pastors and church leaders who are more on the side of that we should all wear masks also happen to be pastors and leaders that seem to be more on the side of social justice as well which a lot of this virtual signaling is really about as well so I mean

48:18

I think that a lot of people early on myself included

48:23

I was done with the lockdown when they had those protests going on and saying well that had to continue because it was so important but everything else had to stop because you know people can die and that's when it was like look clearly there is something else going on here this is not about you know health care anymore when you see them sitting there and they'd be on the streets wearing no mask at all screaming and chanting in close proximity with lots of people and then they're telling you if you sing at church you're gonna kill your neighbor even though you're six feet apart and it revealed the hypocrisy of it and I just was like at that point

49:05

I don't want to give in to the hypocrisy when we didn't know like Bud was saying when we didn't know what was going on we didn't know the details we were told that it was much deadlier than it was there's caution and I think caution is good but once we realize this has nothing to do with that caution being needed anymore

49:24

I think it was time you know to stand up and say no enough is enough we need to get back to doing what we need to do you know which is going to work going to church being able to live our lives and I think that a lot of the governments are just saying we got a great way to keep everyone controlled and I believe that this is just one area we got to stand up now

49:48

I forget where it was in France I think it was where they actually had a day that they promoted that everyone was just going to go out in the streets take their mask off throw it down and that was it they had a protest against the masks and that's almost what we need to stop nonsense you know

50:08

I mean it just it's mind boggling well Andrew my main concern and I've shared

50:15

Bud and I have had these conversations because we're part of the same church we see each other regularly and talk regularly but I am very concerned about future generations of Christians I'm concerned about my own children my grandchildren

50:30

I'm concerned because I think religious liberty in our country is slipping away and we have

50:37

Christians Jonathan Lehman is one of those he came out with an article when all of this started and I had a response to it that I wrote and he's never gotten back with me on a personal level on it which is okay but I think his article was very dangerous because basically what he was saying was this was not the time for Christians to fight there's going to come a day in which

51:02

Christians need to stand up for their religious liberties but this is not the time to do it and I completely disagree you see these restrictions these mandates by these liberal governors these liberal mayors in some cases these liberal people that want to become president of the

51:19

United States who will absolutely use this to persecute the church there is no question about it so now the issue is do you love your neighbor as yourself and what

51:30

I'm talking about is your own children and your grandchildren do you love them enough to take a stand which is not anything abnormal that Christian Americans have always done the constitution allows us the free expression of our worship that is beginning to be restricted suddenly but surely being restricted in some cases quite directly like in California with Governor Newsom and John MacArthur's church so we're just going to sit back and say well we'll fight when it gets real serious no this is the time to fight right now we have a very small window of time and that's why you know

52:12

I say that's my concern for convincing Christians I don't think many

52:18

Christians understand this is the hour of war because if we love our neighbor as ourselves meaning our children and our grandchildren

52:29

Christians need to stop swallowing the narrative and they need to begin to speak for truth and that might mean taking your mask off and throwing it down I don't know but it's certainly we can't continue in the direction that we're going without doing serious damage to future generations

52:50

I think it is loving your neighbor by allowing them to assemble in church and hearing

52:59

God's word preached I think even more so to a historical I know you do a podcast on history but that's church history let me give some other history what we end up seeing is we look at the holocaust and what happened to the

53:15

Jewish people there there were many people who made the same exact argument now is not the time to fight they made that argument when they were being taken out of their homes and being put into the ghettos and the argument was hey look okay we lost all our possessions but we haven't lost our life you know let's just get they're not going to kill us you know they're just we're going to undergo a little bit but it's just a little bit of restriction for a period of time and meanwhile other people moved into their homes took over all their possessions and that was the time to fight because when it came time for them to be sent from the ghettos to the concentration camps then it was too late at that point they lost the fight and so I think that that you know

54:02

Andrew you're right this is the time to fight because if we keep waiting on our Christian liberties we will lose them because the government is going to see oh now is an opportunity we now have that we control that it's no longer something you have a right to discuss anymore and that's the fear that I have that is what

54:22

I can see with the coming persecution of Christians but I don't think we respond just because well we know a persecution is going to be coming

54:31

I think that I don't see any biblical case that is made for wearing a mask and I think as Andrew and Bud you have made the argument there's a biblical case we can make against wearing masks because it does perpetuate a lie it does continue people living in fear and those are the reasons

54:49

I stopped but you know when I really realized what was going on when I had enough of this nonsense with the lockdowns and the masks was when

54:59

I watched Resurrection Sunday and all the churches that tried to meet and they just met in parking lots where they didn't even get out of their cars and someone would be up front preaching with amplification and they were given tickets and they were given fines you know when the

55:15

Jewish people in New York were trying to do for their holidays they were being arrested they were being fined so you have that with the

55:22

Christians you had that with the Jewish but then for Ramadan in New York, New York City which was arresting and ticketing the

55:30

Jewish people the Jewish population the Christian population was going around city workers going around making halal food for Ramadan so that it was available in over 70 places and they were going to increase even more that was the mayor who said that you know

55:44

I thought there was a separation of church and state but city workers are going to be preparing food for their holiday and even more they went into the mosques to tape out where people can go to pray now you can't go to church you can't go to synagogue but you are allowed to go to the mosque you saw the hypocrisy and once that hypocrisy is there you realize this has nothing to do with a health issue anymore because if it was they would have told the mosques you can't meet either so they are separating out certain groups they're choosing which businesses can survive and which ones can't because they're not letting some open they're deciding what kind of things you're allowed to buy in stores in some states and they're deciding what groups can have houses of worship open and which ones can't and who are allowed to assemble for the worship of God and who can't and so it's no longer an issue of well this is obeying government or this is loving your neighbor no this is this is giving in to the persecution of the world system that wants to shut down the church and so I agree with you

56:54

Andrew this is the time to fight I think this is the time to stand up and say enough is enough I agree with you when

57:01

I'm sitting with an unbeliever I'm not going to sit there and they're going to say well to be in our store you have to wear a mask then

57:08

I guess I won't be in your store or I'll put on a mask I'm not going to sit and fight with you because a lot of the stores and that's the thing a lot of people don't realize these stores are kind of fighting the stores have no choice the stores are being mandated to have everyone wear a mask and the guy working in your

57:28

Walmart or wherever they're not having any issue like some of them don't care to wear a mask

57:34

I was talking to one guy at Home Depot he thinks it's ridiculous he doesn't want to wear a mask but he's required to ask everyone to put it on you know but some of them when

57:45

I walk in Home Depot and I say I have a health issue they're fine with it others they wouldn't make a big deal of it so I think either way you do have that case and so I just I think that we have to recognize that there's more to this than the arguments being made and I want to close out but Andrew I want to give you the last word anything that you you want to promote anything you want to share even about your podcast which you know

58:11

I haven't gotten a recent one episode I think there's something wrong there I think there's there's a lot of history that you haven't touched on you know so I think it's a shorter podcast come on it doesn't it doesn't take as long as this one you know you know with these close downs you know shut downs you've had nothing to do all right you've just been sitting at home anyway right but no

58:32

I want to plug your podcast let folks know if they're in you know Florida and they want to find a good church plug your church so people know where to find you how to listen to your sermons so they can maybe get the live feed and folks

58:44

I do recommend his live feed I have heard his preaching outstanding so if you want more preaching more sermons in your life go check it out but anything you want to close with well

58:57

I just I have a question did you miss me no we weren't even going to mention that to the audience we realized your phone dropped out and you were going to come back and I didn't want to have more editing to do but thank you for bringing that up I'll edit that out in my truck yeah so what was the question again so anything that you want to close out the show with I want you to give folks an idea where they could find you find your sermons find the church find your podcast well

59:31

I can I just touch on one thing when I heard the last thing that you had mentioned about you know someone having someone that works beneath them and they have the responsibility

59:43

I'll tell you what since I'm going to edit this I'll tell you what you missed basically what I did was I talked about the holocaust and issues with the holocaust how they didn't give they got moved into the ghettos and were like hey it's not time to fight we at least have our life and by the time they were going to move to the concentration camps their liberties were already gone and then

01:00:02

I was talking about the fact of if I go in a store I'm not going to fight with them over it I'm not going to you know as basically agreeing with what you had said and when you go and listen to the podcast you'll realize that I made it sound like you were still here so no one knew you were gone

01:00:15

I'll just drop it so I'll pick up with the podcast thing pick up with whatever you want to say with what

01:00:24

I just updated you so anyway you want to close out the show go for it yeah I think that was a great point about just you know you know we need to be people of peace you know

01:00:36

I don't think that we need to go start a war by every time we go to Walmart or we go to a restaurant that we're trying to get the establishment shut down and we get dragged out because we refuse to wear a mask and or whatever other thing that we're trying to do to cause problems but I do think that as Christians we have a responsibility to speak the truth and whatever consequences flow from that flow from that and you know

01:01:03

Paul says live at peace with all men so much as it's possible for you but there are times in which it's not possible and so at those moments we need to be willing to stand for truth but as far as my podcast goes the reason that I've not had any shows is because all my podcasting equipment is broken and I've not purchased anything new so I haven't recorded any episodes

01:01:29

Is that a good enough reason? Like you don't know my number? Alright, we'll talk later

01:01:34

Yeah, we probably should talk later So let folks know where they can find your podcast and your church

01:01:44

Yeah, I pastor Christ Reformed Community Church in St. Augustine, Florida and the website is christreformedcc .com

01:01:52

We just moved into a brand new facility and the Lord is really blessing us in spiritual growth and numerical growth.

01:01:59

It's just a privilege to be able to preach God's Word every Lord's Day and that's my full -time job.

01:02:06

I'm just an amateur podcaster on the side, not like Andrew and Bud who are professionals but the name of my podcast is

01:02:14

Today in Church, His Story and you can find it on Apple iTunes. You can also access it on pastorandrewsmith .com

01:02:24

I have some articles and podcasts and that's where all my sermons are archived as well Yeah, and for folks who don't know,

01:02:33

Steve Lawson recommends your preaching so that's high marks there You know, so if you get

01:02:39

Steve Lawson, you know, recommending you, that counts for something. So you guys want to go check that out,

01:02:46

Andrew again I recommend him Bud recommends him So if you go if you're in the area of Florida, you get both

01:02:55

Bud and Andrew. Check it out. You can see them both. You know I was going to say kill two birds with one stone but something about that there's two of you.

01:03:05

Yeah, no we shouldn't go that way. But I appreciate you coming on. Next week folks,

01:03:10

Bud and I plan to be interviewing a award winning podcaster.

01:03:18

That's right. Chris Honholz from Voice of Reason Radio He has done a book review on the book

01:03:23

White Fertility basically teaching wokeness. White fragility

01:03:29

Fragility, sorry. Not fertility More to edit out

01:03:36

White fertility. Now I can't say it Fragile Fragility He's done a book review on White Fragility and it's basically teaching people how to be woke

01:03:52

It is a bestseller, unfortunately, and we're going to deal with that with him So I want you to tune in to that next week.

01:04:00

We look forward to coming back next time and Bud, you know what? What's that? That's a wrap.

01:04:06

This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity .org