Dealing With the Big Issues, Nabeel Qureshi, Truly Bad IFD, Thoughts from the Reforma

So, how do you do this? I don't remember it's been so long especially the hey, do you see what somebody gave me in Germany?

I was in Worms and these two guys Actually were just from Worms and they heard

I was gonna be there so they were just sort of walking around waiting for me to show up and one of the things they gave me was

Lutherol Was Martin Luther heute verordnen würde?

and it's a It's a I thought they were like pieces of gum or something, but they're not they're little pieces of paper with quotes from Martin Luther to cure what ails you and so it's called

Lutherol and There you go. I didn't I didn't want to forget that But I wanted to thank the guys for For showing up and I got two of the little guy back there next to the big

Martin Luther And and I've been given a couple before it's a little it's a little what are they called?

some type of a play toy type thing, but he's right up there next to the big

Martin Luther next to the Borg sphere and So I was asked to make sure he would be visible on the divide barely

Yeah, well, he's right next to Martin Luther's right hand. So left hand from your perspective, but Martin Luther's right hand, so anyway

So much to get to but of course a a difficult day everyone woke up this morning

Well, unless you're up late, I'm not a late -night person these days I'm still Still trying to adjust to the nine hour nine hour shift back picked up a little something that Really nothing much of anything but just enough to you know, you had the sore throat and then

I had a little Last night and it's pretty much gone. I hope we'll see you could could could come back with a with a vengeance but Nine hour jet lag shift back here to play mobile.

Yeah. Yeah, that's someone channel play mobile Nine hour shift back here to Phoenix and so we wanted to get a program in we hadn't done one in quite some time and of course we pick a day where We have the

Las Vegas shooting and it does sort of In a way dovetail with some of the things that we need to talk about anyway

The day before I left for the tour in German and Germany. We did a 75 minute long dividing line

That was lost. It was not recorded It just and never happened to us before and I'm gonna try to get back.

I'm gonna try to recover some of that material eventually The one thing that I think

I had spent the most of the time on was the issue of Nabil Qureshi's death and At the same time

I hadn't had the opportunity yet to address The hurricane in in Houston the hurricane in Florida Just so many things

That have been going on recently and There actually is somewhat of a relationship between all of these things

Starting off with Basically, you know,

I guess we'll put all of them together How do we as Christians? respond to Tragedies as a whole whether they are massive

Natural tragedies massive human tragedies in the shooting in Las Vegas Which when

I say tragedy Obviously, there are two completely different things a

Natural disaster is part from a Christian perspective and again, basically what

I'm What I'm going to address today What is is basically along the lines of all right, we have as Christians What we believe to be a revelation from God and Basically you can measure

Where a group is going to be going? by how much they believe this actually is a revelation from God or how much they

Seek to accommodate this revelation to external sources such as what is popular in society, whatever whatever else it might be and We are supposed to have something called the mind of Christ It's not a phrase you hear repeated a lot

Amongst evangelical Christians or reformed Christians the mind of Christ It should be

But we always talk about The necessity of responding in a way that is glorifying to God.

Well, what does that mean? Well, it means having a consistent Christian worldview. Well, what does that mean? Well that that means

Viewing the world as a Christian should view the world so that we respond In a way that's glorifying to God based upon his revealed truth

Specifically in the person of Jesus Christ and explained to us and the abiding Witness of the

Spirit of God and the Word of God called Scripture Okay So, why should we have to have that continually

Pressed upon us well because the world is seeking to conform us to its image and So we want to be conformed the image of Christ.

We don't want to be conformed the image of the world. All right So there is a battle going on there is a conflict going on in Being conformed to the image of the world over against being conformed to the image of Christ having the

Word of God Operating within us, etc, etc Okay, so to what do we expose ourselves more often?

to the consistent teaching of Scripture the explication of that Scripture in the in the church in the fellowship of believers

Where we've gathered to be obedient to God's command and to be encouraged in the things of God Or are we much more often exposed to the thinking of the world?

the music of the world the art of the world the literature of the world the social media of the world which has a greater influence upon us and What's the greater danger that Is it not that we are going to Modify our

Christian worldview so that it fits into a a secular society in which we live or that We are going to compromise very clearly on what we believe

When it comes to these issues as I have listened to Christians responding to Both natural disaster as well as last evening yet again a

Example not of the sickness of man This was not an ill individual.

This was not a sick individual. This was an evil Individual right then as soon as you is as soon as you become can tell that you are

Uncomfortable With the word evil might tell you which of the two influences is greater in your own mindset

Because the scriptures do not hesitate to identify the actions of man as being evil when they are in fact evil and so when we

When as I listened to Christians, it's one thing to listen to and it doesn't matter whether they're leftists rightists

Centrists as long as they're secularists The the interpretation

Provided by individuals of these these events are

Pretty much all the same They are they are interpreted within a naturalistic framework.

And so they may use they may use different language in the sense of you know, it's sort of like the different language you'd see between Fox News and MSNBC You're gonna have different language you're gonna have people it's more likely to hear somebody talking about Sending prayers or saying prayers to Pete for people and the victims on Fox News and you would on MSNBC but when it comes to the motivations of an individual being evil when it comes to Whether God has a purpose in these things whether they be

Natural and all people are when it comes to when it comes to something like where a hurricanes gonna hit

It seems to be perfectly fine then for God to be in charge Because we all know we have

Computer models that sort of give us a cone of uncertainty right because we don't know We're not in charge.

We're not in control We simply don't know where these things are gonna go and As we know weather is a fractal phenomenon and and so no one

I don't think can ever know Star Trek aside Exactly where these things are gonna go exactly what their what impact they're gonna have

We don't know. We don't know so People are a little bit more willing to sort of put that off to You know

God's in control of that but even then Secularists today

God's God's on vacation, you know there if there's a guy at all, he's a deist and he's just observing

He's not really involved But especially when you get something like last evening

What happens last last night? You really start seeing the worldview impact upon how people interpret these events

And as I listen to even Christians responding to these things, I'm really taken aback at how thoroughly secularized many people who claim to be

Christians really are when it comes to these big events these big issues and it comes back to theology and You can even have a good theology but if you really haven't applied it if you're not trying to Really live in light of it and some of you might say well, it's it's too soon to address this

Well, okay, but which shooting do we want to use then? I mean Which which horrific act, you know,

I guess my my hotel in Berlin was What something like a hundred meters from Where the guy last

Christmas drove the truck into the into the crowd of people Okay, I mean so we could that's far enough away from now half of us had forgotten about it

They go. Yeah, was that last year? Oh, you know, and that's the thing We're thinking of and let's be honest three weeks from now.

We'll be thinking about something other than Las Vegas That's the reality But when you think of the level of evil that Lies behind someone on the 32nd floor and this isn't by the way, this is not just a modern thing

What was it University of Texas? Was that where it was the the tower there the tower shooter? I was like the 60s wasn't it 60 right?

I think I think I may have been born then a long time ago You know, you've got the shooter up there and This guy, you know people are already starting to try to Find Motivations and all the rest of stuff.

I just go. Hey, you know what? it's that news cycle time and you got to put people on to say things and so Almost anything that is said for the first week is primarily speculation and I Can't necessarily trust everything that I'm gonna be hearing or seeing or anything else, so I'm One of those folks says let's let's give it some time and make sure that some serious

Research is done. And and even then I tend to be a little bit more skeptical these days, but We don't all we know is anyone standing up there

With an automatic weapon not a semi automatic weapon, which you can buy at gun stores You can't buy what this guy had at a gun store

I Realized that there's a lot of really confused people about that, but that's another issue.

We won't get into today anyway You're up there with a full auto weapon Fairly high caliber.

I I'm guessing AK probably that wasn't an m16. I know the difference between the sounds and Those those were heavier bullets.

That was a that was probably 30 30 caliber 7 .62 something like that.

Anyway, you just pull on that trigger and you're just emptying out banana clips probably 30 rounds each

Into maybe Into People who cannot fight back

You're just committing murder and you know exactly what you're doing. You've been planning it.

We look at something like that and And The secularist who views mankind as merely as merely an animal a

You can't even it's not even properly it's I'm proper to say highly evolved animal because high assumes something that the secular worldview cannot actually provide just a complex

Product of evolution You look at that and when you call that person evil on what basis

Can you can you really say that you're you're begging the existence of a of a objective morality

To give your words any kind of meaning you can find it horrific You can use what you can use terms to just you're shocked that anyone could do something like this, but it's it's just as Has been pointed out.

It's it's one blob of Sparkly stardust

Doing something to other blobs of sparkly stardust. That's really all it is when you boil it all down and So you can talk about man evolving morality and well, this is bad for the group as a whole

So that's why it's morally wrong all the rest of that stuff. None of that does anything in here We all know that's a bunch of garbage we all know that's that's that's made up to explain a

Particular scientific theory that people are absolutely dedicated to religiously, but How's a

Christian supposed to respond to this? Because on the one hand we say this individual is responsible before God for what he does responsible for God and Will be judged by God and so that immediately raises the issue.

Well, could God have stopped this man and Obviously We have to biblically

Say God could stop anyone from doing anything The open theist says no

God didn't know what was coming. He knew his possibility But he didn't know if the guy would go through with it

Which means that that's why the open theist God doesn't know What You know

What's gonna happen tomorrow? He doesn't know when you're gonna die because your death In all probability will be the result of numerous

Free will choices by free creatures and God can't know that and so the open theist goes, nah

You know God will do the best he can to put it all back together And I'm not even including process theology and all the rest that garbage in this right now.

We'll just stick with these things But if you're a Christian and God doesn't have a decree

Then when God created this world, he knew this was gonna happen if you believe in divine foreknowledge

God knew this was gonna happen, but he doesn't have a purpose for it he just you know, either you do the

Molinus thing and I Don't even know how you go there, you know

God's just Those were the cards that were dealt and somehow to get the best

Result you had to include this guy. I'm not even mentioning his name. I'm having memorized his name

I don't want to give him any any any fame but somehow

I guess God had to include this guy in the mix and God knew it is could do because of middle knowledge, but there wasn't any do about it and somehow he just had to Work it in here.

So as to protect man's autonomy and Still get the best result. This was

This was the best God could do That's the

Molinus understanding. Well, someone says how about you?

Mr. Calvinist God decreed that this man would do that It wasn't anything you do about it Wasn't anything you do about it

I was looking at the book of Isaiah and I was Listening to what scripture says

I am this is Isaiah 45 beginning of verse 5 I am Yahweh and there is no other besides me.

There is no God. I Will gird you though you have not known me that men may know from the rising of the setting of the

Sun There is no one besides me I am Yahweh and there is no other the one forming light and creating darkness causing well -being and creating calamity

I am Yahweh who does all these and as you as you know in Isaiah 45 7

Well -being is Shalom creating Shalom and Creating raw calamity or evil.

I am the Lord who does all these and He's talking Similarly to what you have in Amos 3

When in asking a number of questions one of the questions that's asked in Amos 3 6 if a calamity and That's rah, ah

Same thing if calamity occurs in a city has not Yahweh done it. Well, a lot of people would say no

No but the fundamental understanding of Yahweh in the

Old Testament, this is one of the reasons that The Brian Zahn's of the world don't really you know, they they want a different God than the

God of the Old Testament They don't want to believe this they don't want to believe that that Yahweh does whatever he pleases and the heavens and the earth and The seas and all deep places and and that he accomplishes will and no one raises a hand to say why have you done this?

They don't want any of that. They don't that's not something they're interested in. Okay, if you believe that God has a sovereign decree and He's accomplishing his purposes

What happened last night is a blip in History, I mean

What way up to 58? I think the last last I saw 58 dead and over 400 injured

So over 500 Ever heard of the firebombing of Dresden you've heard of Hiroshima Nagasaki but the firebombing of Dresden Where we didn't use nuclear weapons, but we used

Conflagration devices incendiary devices that literally fried

People Where they lay on the streets and turn them into charred.

I mean you had to just dig them off the pavement It was so hot that it melted

People right into the ground There have been horrific things that have happened in human history and I think one of the

Problems is so few people today know anything about history We don't have a context to put things in and As a result

Whatever we're experiencing now is all is the worst it's ever been It's not the worst. It's ever been

It isn't You can you can deceive yourself into thinking it is every generation wants to think it's never been this bad but it's

It the fact of matter is the history of man's ability to engage in these things as long and you go

Okay, fine. Let's we'll take that as a given you mean God has a purpose in all this to which

I respond biblically when that tower fell in The days of Jesus and Jesus made reference to it you remember

How he made reference to it. He didn't say oh that that terrible tragedy.

Oh, I have to question the goodness of God that Something like that could happen because this tower is being built it it collapses that happens

Happened more in the ancient world it happens today, but it still happens today, too Jesus made reference to it.

We're talking about the Incarnate Son of God And He responded to it in the proper way in The right way we need to respond to it in the same way

Jesus did He didn't view it as something that was outside of God's control here is

Jesus taught a sparrow doesn't fall a Sparrow doesn't fall without God's knowledge and it's not just oh, he's just observing everything

Jesus believes in the absolute sovereignty of God the kingship of God I Jesus believes every word of the

Old Testament because it was he by his spirit that gave it to us if you're a Trinitarian you believe that and so Jesus's response to what seems to us to be a random tragedy

Was to remind us of the brevity of life in the judgment of God You think you're better than those people that the tower fell on?

You're not repent and believe repent and believe or you'll likewise perish

What is all this Come to in my thinking what

I didn't hear many Christians and you know what Brother Piper gets really ravaged on this one he he's consistent on this subject and it

Infuriates people but John Piper over and over again

Refers to the reality That If we have a biblical worldview

If we allow scripture if we allow what we believe about God to determine how we interpret

What happens in the world, which is what Christians should do? What most people do is you look at what happens in the world and you create a

God To try to fit what you see around you. You're not big enough to do that. You're not smart enough to do

You don't have enough information to do that this is where medieval man man before the not so much enlightenment

That's a that's a by the way the term using the term enlightenment I know it's just historically been used for a long time. That's so arrogant

It should be the Some other term but enlightenment assumes where we're just so much smarter

No medieval man knew something that we don't know That we've forgotten and that is we are not big enough to be the center of Our thought process about the world.

We are creatures. We need something outside ourselves We need a God who made us they understood that we don't the results been chaos since we've forgotten that and So when we look

At what is happening around us and we ask what is

God's purpose? We cannot demand of God Specific revelation about his purposes in each event and when when

John Piper talks about God's judgment in natural disasters or in things like this a

Lot of times people misinterpret that to say well So you think you know that there was something really bad going on in Houston?

And that's why this storm blew up so quickly and caused such devastation devastation and There was something going on in Puerto Rico and Florida with Irma and and and all the rest it wasn't

Irma in Puerto Rico was the second one Maria So So you think there's specific things in those areas no

No, I can't know I Mean if I were to say that there, you know,

God's judgment has to come where the worst sins are I don't know where they are. I can take a wild guess but only

God knows the hearts of men and Because we can't say hey

This is the sin that caused this act of judgment then a lot of people go what we can't know that at all we can't

We shouldn't talk about God's judgment Jesus did Jesus warned us that we are going to face the wrath of God we are going to face judgment a day of judgment is coming and There is punishment for sin.

And so because we can't know specifically what's happened is the vast majority of Christians When you look at a hurricane they won't ever mention the wrath of God because well, we're naturalists and the fact is

Hurricanes have been hitting the plot of land that Houston is built on or New Orleans or Florida as a whole

For a very long time In fact back in the days of Moses There were hurricanes hitting

What would eventually become known as the United States of America now, there weren't very many people around We don't have any record of them, but I can guarantee you

There were cat ones and cat twos and cat threes and cat fours and even cat fives. Oh, yeah, and they blew over trees and they

May have killed natives Um, but we don't know anything about it

We don't have any barometric pressure readings to be able to compare them with or anything else But they were going on you say well, well, well, how can that be about God's judgment?

How could the falling of the tower be about God's judgment? We live in a fallen world and God allows these things to happen.

He decrees that these things are to happen whether they are natural in the sense of Outside of man's control or whether they are these

Heard of a guy named Herod Heard of a guy named Herod and Bethlehem little children

Did you happen to recall that that was a oh that was a prophesied event if it didn't happen

God's knowledge itself be falsified And God prophesied it not because he looked in the future and said, oh, oh

God had a purpose in it And when he lifts that hand of restraint because that's how this type of stuff happens

Horrible rulers like Herod would do the Bethlehem kill the kids thing Much more often than they do if God did not restrain them

And if you actually believe that then you got to you got to believe all of it. So God Decrees these things to happen for a purpose and if we take

Jesus's example what we should do when we see these things is be reminded of the fallen state of the creation and the need for every single one of us to repent and believe and We should be calling our fellow citizens to repentance and faith

Oh, that sounds so out of step with the world. Yeah, it is. It is.

That's what Jesus did That's what he calls us to do and think about it

Here all these folks I saw Some of those videos started coming out this morning.

Well, the very first one is the guy in the tent Yeah, I saw one of a guy in one of the

VIP tents and they're crawling around because bullets are ripping through the fabric and stuff like that and There in the middle of all of it

Goes this guy. He's still standing up. He's not even running and He has not put his beer down he's got a big old plastic cup a

Beer and he ain't losing it. He may lose his life, but he ain't losing his beer There's priorities for you.

I just sort of watched it like Wow, no one's gonna notice that but I did

Here these people how many of them had given any thought that day to eternity

Very few the fact the matter is none of us

Have any promise of tomorrow? We always say that theoretically when we talk about getting in our cars and driving down the road and That's true

But all of us expect to get home, but here's people

Seem like a safe place to be and then all of a sudden

Death rains down upon them And it takes a while for people to even figure out what's going on You don't expect anything like that.

The Christian message is we should always be prepared for something like that not in a sense of whipping out your sniper rifle and returning fire

But we don't have any promise of tomorrow the great power

That was exhibited in Jonathan Edwards sinners in the hands of an angry

God was in the vivid revelation it gave of the reality

That mortality Is That we are walking on a rotten bridge

Over the yawning chasm of hell and that is where every single person is outside of Christ They're walking on a rotted bridge right over the yawning chasm of hell

That is the proper way of looking at it and it brought such conviction because it brought the reality of one's mortality and The reality of God's judgment and so as Christians We see something like this.

We pray for the victims. And what do you mean we pray for the victims? You know, everybody says that what does that mean? Well for believers, we pray for their comfort their witness for unbelievers, we pray that for the survivors the gospel will come to them and That they will bow the knee before Christ But a lot of people like to say well, but what about those who weren't?

Today's Day of Salvation There's no post -mortem salvation

There's no praying for folks once they're gone. It's a point on a man wants to die That's what makes the gospel so vitally important now

Not somewhere down the road when we look at these things

If you are Embarrassed by the reality that these things demonstrate

God's righteous judgment Against sin that sin is

Romans 1 God's wrath is being revealed not will be revealed. It will in its fullness

But God's wrath is being revealed every single day against the ungodliness of man

You say but I can't I can't hold that together With The idea of God's decree

Well, that's why you need to you need to have Joseph's mindset You need to understand why

Joseph was right when he said you meant this for evil God meant it for good God is big enough to be holy to be omnipotent omniscient and The absolutely free king of all that takes place in his creation and Still hold man accountable for acting upon the desires of his heart.

God's big enough Don't try to bring him down So he's small enough to fit into your categories he's big enough to answer these questions and so as we as We look as we will over the next

Few days and weeks maybe come to have more knowledge of motivations. The reality is that God Was not taken by surprise if any believers were cut down in this event

Can't every believer Read the 139th Psalm my days are written in your book

Is that not true for all believers? All people we don't know what tomorrow is going to Bring to us.

None of us has a guarantee on the one hand as one missionary said until God Has determined the day of my until the day that God has termed for my death.

I cannot die That's true. You think about that way, that's true

Until you know if God has said that I am going to live and serve him until such -and -such a day

All the powers of hell cannot change that I can't die

But the reality is when I come to that day, I can't live God's in control of that and That knowledge is not given to me

That knowledge is not given to me. So I must live each day With my focus upon being a servant of Christ and being ready to meet him

That's really what the imminent return of Christ should mean to us is that whether He returns and gathers all of us together or he returns in bringing me to himself in my own personal death

We should be ready. We should be ready Now as I said before I left for Germany I Had taken the time to talk about Nabil Qureshi's death and I did so in the context of again, the theology

That the Bible gives us of those who are in Christ and his purposes for them we

Cannot help but consider Nabil's youth Just a couple years older than my son and that's why when

I heard the diagnosis initially I was just Initially, I was like, oh so young and yet Immediately, I thought of a 16 year old

That I visited with in one of the first few weeks. I worked as a hospital chaplain who is in the cancer ward at the hospital 16 years old a

Very aggressive form of cancer. It may have been stomach cancer 16 years old half the age of Nabil and at that time

I was about Nabil's age and I could not help but think how blessed

I had been to have as many years as I had had and Now we contrast

Nabil's death So few years to serve Christ So few years

I Think of Keith Green one of the great influences upon me.

Yes. I know all about his theology But he was a he was a bright and shining light and Seven years

Seven years all he had and then we compare and contrast that With a man who died and went to hell

Hugh Hefner Ninety one stinking years old we're reminded of the psalmist.

Are we not? Psalm 73, I think The evil seemed to live a good life their death is easy

Man was about to lose his faith until he entered into the temple and presence of God and realized eternity is going to reveal all these things and Justice is going to be done

God is does have his purpose and he's still on his throne, but you look at someone like Hugh Hefner who

God allowed in his sovereignty to live a life of Debauched rebellion and to bring many other people with him.

He is going to be held accountable For what he did in this life and God gave him a long life to store up an incredible amount of wrath that's frightening

That's frightening And it does strike us as odd why would why would

God give Nabil such a short period of time to do good And Hugh Hefner is such a long period of time to do evil.

Well If you think about these things make sure to think about these things as a

Christian should and that is we always approach our Heavenly Father With an attitude of respect awe and trust

And that means when we don't have an answer to everything The default position must always be the judge of all the earth will do right?

And if I can't see the answer it's because of my own ignorance infinitude Not because of anything lacking in God.

We are so often arrogant When we approach God so often arrogant

Especially with these issues, is it possible?

Is it right to think that? It's a blessing

Upon a people When godly men have long lives of ministry

But it's a curse upon a people when evil men Have long lives now you go we got to be careful

I know some men who've had long lives of ministry R .C. Sproul John MacArthur Piper's getting up there

You know, there's there's and and so many names will that we won't know in this life and yet will have such rewards in heaven

Fact is God has his purposes. He says he does he asks us to trust him that he has these purposes

And that it's all going to result the praise of his glorious grace And so when we think about someone like Nabil we can be thankful for his witness

We can be thankful for his life his steadfastness we can certainly

Given the apologetic context learn something about the the

Responses That people have had to this I did get one Muslim on Twitter only one for me

Telling me this is a sign from Allah and I need to repent and embrace Islam And I've said many times if I do, you know,

I'm such a cyclist that The proper way for me to go is as a old man getting run over by a truck it's just not

I I don't think coming down off Mount Evans at 70 and missing a turn

Yeah, I suppose that would be fitting fitting as well. But however I go um

Every religion on the planet is going to take credit for how I go You know, they're all going to take it as a sign

Any group i've ever addressed? See Of course when their leaders die, it's not a sign of anything.

But yeah There you go um There obviously have been muslims who have responded in very negative ways

But let's also be honest there have been muslims who Have not responded in a negative way And who have expressed their sorrow at nabil's passing if you if you ignore the ones then you can't really pick on the others, you know, you got to be

You got to be honest about the whole thing but One of the issues that that had come up in um this

Issue in this in this event The last time

I saw nabil in person Was years ago In fact, unless i'm unless i'm mistaken.

I could be mistaken But my recollection is last time I saw nabil was right before he and david got arrested

In dearborn. We were at abn together and uh They said they were going to the

Arab festival that afternoon and I still had to record some programs and We had actually discussed reform theology over lunch

And then they had left and I think that's last time I saw nabil and when nabil started writing

He came under attack By his critics who were saying he was never truly a muslim because he was akhmadi

And i've had one person say that I threw him under the bus I didn't um, what

I did is I In a way that I hoped would be heard and taken, you know

Nabil had said my book on the trinity was very helpful to him Very formative for him and so We had had when we were together a good relationship

And so I had said sitting right here I had said this is what I would suggest to nabil qureshi use this

As a positive thing use these attacks as a positive thing. What you need to do Is when you give your presentations?

start off by saying now Sunni some shia don't even accept that.

I was a true muslim and this is why I was an akhmadi muslim and and here's where the akhmadi differ from sunni muslim

And then go however my path to coming to know jesus It's pretty much identical

To the path any sunni muslim any shiite would have to follow because here's what I did believe

And these were the issues about scripture about jesus about All the things that sunni has to get over the akhmadi has to get over as well

And use that as a positive thing to be able to then introduce the things That separated you from faith in christ that separates the sunni muslim from faith in christ

And these were the issues I had to deal with here's the conclusions. I came to you turned into a positive You take away the objection you turn into a positive

So that's what I had suggested And to this day, I think that that is That's wisdom. I think that would be the way to handle a situation like that So it wasn't a criticism it was a it was brotherly counsel

To someone who quite literally is young enough to be my son was quite literally young enough to be my son um and so some people have misrepresented

That incident as if I was somehow Criticizing nabil or or something along those lines and the fact matter is

I wasn't likewise at one point I played a clip Where nabil and ravi zacharias were both speaking at the same event

And even though nabil was on the platform. I focused on what ravi said about roman catholicism

And I dealt with that particular issue. Ah, so you're critical look. Um I recognize that god saves all sorts of different kinds of people and I do not demand

That you look like me and do everything I do and believe everything I do about everything I i'm, sorry for people who think that everybody has to Wear the same clothes and sing the same songs and be identical and everything.

I I don't um I will defend The consistency of my own approach because I think that's very important um, but i'm

I just feel sorry for people who assume that if I disagree with what ravi zacharias says about roman catholicism

And explain why that somehow means well everything he's ever done is is bad

Uh doesn't work that way doesn't work doesn't work that way so, uh, we pray for nabil's family

Uh, we pray for david wood Um, let me say something about david david's you know, i've said on this program that David's testimony video is one of the most incredible things i've ever seen and david does deal with certain muslims who tend to You know, it's sort of like the pal talk level stuff and and I I don't and david knows

I don't agree with That's how he responds to some of them basically egging them on I don't think I don't think that's wise

Um, I wouldn't do it But david stands before his lord not before me I'm, not his judge

David has to answer just like i'm gonna have to answer And i'm not his judge

And if I say I don't think that's wise it does not mean I think the man should be kicked to the curb Does that mean

I don't pray for him? He's brilliant Okay Do I agree with all of his arguments against islam?

No, I don't I don't I I think I think sometimes there are arguments that he presents that You know one of my one of my issues and we're going to get into this when we start talking about the licona thing

Is we've got to be Painstakingly consistent

We can't utilize forms of argumentation That are used against us just because it's used against us well i'm gonna turn around use it against you

I don't think we can do that And I think that when you make your arguments you should do it in such a way where you

Are expecting your audience You're presenting the best form of the argument

Assuming that your audience is going to give the best response from the other side and You know, for example in the video that That david put up One muslim pointed out that one of the quotes that david gave

Is a questionable quote on a textual critical foundation specifically Father forgive them for they know not what they do

I think we need to be just straight up front and recognize that that is a

Textual variant and that there is good reason to question its originality

Okay, that's fair game does that mean I don't love david no It doesn't

I really it just David David's gonna answer to his lord the same way that I am in the same way nabil will

And If I feel there's there's reason to go i'm not going to go there i'm going to explain why and then it's up to david

To deal with it from there It doesn't mean that i'm going to kick. I can't

I can't kick anybody out of the kingdom of heaven Everybody wants to wants people to do that.

I I can say This is a teaching that is dangerous.

This is a teaching that is heretical This is a teaching that'll damn your soul. I can deal with those things, but I can't deal with hearts

I can't look into someone's soul. I can't see what their relationship with god is

And it really gets dangerous when people start demanding that you do that It really does it's it gets a little scary.

So anyway, i'm sorry. I uh, I started going on on another just just so people understand

Nabil was a brilliant young man huge heart And he's going to be missed and You should pray for david wood.

David's hurting. They were close friends And I pray for david wood. We may have disagreements on methodology, but from my perspective anybody who reads hatred

Or anything else into disagreement. You just don't understand how I think you understand It's not like I haven't been talking about this stuff for a long long time

But I pray for david david's my brother in the lord And whether he will acknowledge me or not is up to him

I've not heard him say anything that i'm not a christian or anything else Pray for the whole situation

And that god would be glorified in In that situation. That's that's what any saint wants your death to be is something that's going to glorify god your homecoming

Needs to be something that glorifies the one who has who has saved you okay, um

Now, uh, let me mention just one thing in passing I saw an article, uh yesterday that absolutely

Defines improper unbiblical inappropriate quote -unquote interfaith dialogue

And it is the story of bishop kevin vaughn of orange county california and pastor rick warren and this

Intimate relationship they've developed Everything that i've been accused of falsely in the yasser khadi encounter

Is true about this situation In other words There was no compromise on My part or yasser khadi's part and what we believe

There is in this situation You have interfaith prayer

You have the acceptance of both sides as being right with god in the sense of heirs of salvation

The issues of the gospel are laid aside And we're all just it is a massive huge kumbaya moment

And though both would say they still have differences those differences do not change the fundamental

Spiritual unity that they have with one another none of that none of that Was true in memphis was clearly said to not be the case

So there you've got the example Of everything that we were accused of that didn't happen actually happening

Now I haven't seen anything from all the people who jumped all over me About this yet.

I'm, not sure if janet mefford and steve camp and all the rest of them are going to be doing any major programs about this situation with um with rick warren and bishop kevin vaughn of orange county california but At least in that situation the criticisms that they falsely

Fired at me would at least have grounds If they don't that might tell you a little something about what their real reasons were for doing what they were doing um so There's a good example,

I think it's something to keep uh keep in mind now I need to I may go more in depth in this later on but Allegedly we only have one half hour left and I really haven't even gotten to what

I wanted to do yet uh I'll tell you what i'll do um

Now you've got something going on this afternoon, which is why we did it this morning, right? But what about tomorrow? Okay, so we'll probably do another program tomorrow we've got a lot to catch up on uh, we got a lot to catch up on um

So i'm gonna hold off doing the uh, craig evans bart ehrman jesus didn't say the i am sayings jonathan mcclatchy uh

And what muslim apologists are doing with this? discussion Uh, which came up starting about september 30th or so Uh, we'll we'll hold that off for tomorrow and uh deal with it then because I think

It's a subject we've dealt with many times before But it is an important subject and it does illustrate once again the need for consistency and the fact that a perspective

That does not begin With acceptance of jesus's own teaching on the authority and nature of scripture is doomed from the beginning

Uh, it cannot be consistent it cannot be faithful to his own words

At the same time we will have an opportunity to Uh talk about Um The gospel of john as a historical gospel

What And i've discussed this before but what ipsissimus vox means is

Ipsissimus verba um And some of the issues related to that some of you will remember the conversation

I presented on this at the g3 conference two and a half years ago um but we will

Go into that And i'll also go into I had queued up here some of the comments on Uh, Ijaz Ahmed's, uh facebook page, please don't delete that Ijaz I want to talk about not that you ever do i'm not saying that you do that just I want to Talk about it.

Um Especially this one long comment from Ijaz to samuel green uh on these these issues uh

Just you know, like for example I hate to break it to you. This is Ijaz to samuel I hate to break it to you, but you seem to be falling prey to christian anti -intellectualism

You seem to think scholar is a dirty word. Next you'll be telling me the earth is flat and climate change isn't real

God knows what would happen if you knew what the very poor people who put your scripture together na committee

For example, that's the allen committee believe you might lose your mind You found out that the critical editions of today contain conjectural emendations galore

Ijaz galore Uh from folks who disbelieve and reject and their inspiration altogether yet, where is your voice then?

I I'm gonna find it interesting to look at some of those things. Um But I only want to go for an hour and a half today partly because of my voice

Uh partly because i've got a lot of stuff going on. Um, you know, you get home and There's just a lot of stuff to catch up on Uh, so I I announced

On Twitter that I wanted specifically to talk about this location

On the dividing line when I got back and uh, there is this location

And I was very impressed At how many people on my twitter feed

Know what that is Where it is and what it means I was impressed People did accurately identify uh the location um

But before I do that, uh, if we can go Back from that so I can pick something else

I can go back from that Okay um I do want to uh

First of all, let me just start off by thanking uh

Michael Fallon um Kathy, Janica, they were our sovereign folks on our trip.

Ryan was supposed to get to go but he wasn't able to Would have had a blast with Ryan Um, but he wasn't able to be there

Just an incredible trip. Um Everybody in the group said

It was far beyond what they expected um The amount of work that it takes to put something like this together is astounding

Absolutely astounding done so well And I saw things that just will will stick with me my entire life however long that might be

Um, for example, uh On the night we visited the

Vartberg castle Mike arranged this and he specifically put

Kelly and I at the head of the table and and had some special words of thanks to her and I for our ministry over the years

This was in the hotel, which is attached to the Vartberg And this is our group, uh having an incredible dinner

After an incredible day at the Vartberg Uh, we actually invited uh our uh, one of our guides

Uh, he's right, uh right here one of our guides came up. Uh from The city to be with us and we invited our bus driver

Karim Uh to join us And he came up and uh, I don't think he's accustomed to a lot of groups treating him the way that we did

Um with kindness and things like that. So just a magical magical evening

Uh, just just incredible And i'm gonna go back here. Um Let me just tell you that this picture um

Some of you have already seen that i've uh adopted it as my uh

Profile pic um on facebook and and twitter but We're talking bucket list here um

Yeah, I don't even know how to describe it I think back on uh my first church history class and seminary and uh

Nate Feldmuth my professor making church history come alive because he had gone to germany and switzerland and he had uh visited these areas and and um and everything else but when

I walked up the spiral staircase Opened the little door that Little swinging door that allows you to go there into the main pulpit the high pulpit

In the Schlosskirche in Wittenberg the castle church in Wittenberg um

I knew that was a lifetime experience right there um

I had I think properly prepared for it um Part of the part of the pressure was that I quoted from Luther three times

And I felt that it was appropriate since his remains were What?

10 meters from me there Uh primarily because i'm up above as far as horizontally three meters from me there um

That I quote him in german and so Um pastor Peter Schilt from Frankfurt Had helped me with that Uh, I had gotten the quotes.

I wanted we got tracked him down in german And uh, so that was part of the pressure was

I wanted to make sure that was correct But we will post the video.

Uh, if you do something with Michael Fallon nearby, it'll be recorded in 4k Uh, sometimes you don't necessarily want that but it will be

And I I preached on What has changed? in the 500 years

Since Luther and since the day in that very room where Karlstadt gave the

Supper in both kinds to people And just what what's changed why?

Why does why is it that what was so important then just doesn't seem to be important to people today But that was um, that was an incredible experience that was an incredible experience there's there's no choice about it and One of the things we might talk about i'm gonna take that down Is if you go to a wider view, uh, it's it's pretty amazing.

Um Yeah, here's the The wider view and while i'm preaching and one person on twitter's response to that picture was

Oh an idol factory And so we may have an opportunity of talking about some of that uh

In the future as well, but there you can see the staircase real well, you can see the opening there in the back and There was a fellow on staff with the church who's from america

I could tell because he had no german accent and uh He saw me about ready to go up Standing back there pastor josh byce gave the opening prayer down at the um pulpit down below and the guy

Said to me before I went up. He said I don't want to put any pressure on you. He says but when you stand up there You're at the same level as all the other reformers

And you can see one over here And one over here and then back behind there's one here

And there's one here, but then going back in the church the other direction There are statues the reformers.

They're all the same level and they're the same level of that pulpit So where you stand behind that pulpit? uh is um the same level as the reformers like Thanks, appreciate the appreciate your pointing that out to me.

Uh, that that's that's great so It was a tremendous honor to be there in wittenberg and to go through the luther house and and and all of that And then we went to the vartburg castle

And we we couldn't do it in order you know, it was just a whole lot easier on us to to We moved back and forth and in events and in luther's life but we went to This place

And if you're familiar with this picture, um, this is the vartburg castle

And um, it is an impressive sight i'm going to tell you um, beautiful place and Famous and You know, obviously this is where luther

Was hidden away after the diet of worms in 1521 And um

In 10 months does the translation of the new testament, uh into german and uh in preparation for visiting there i i'd read all of his correspondence from the vartburg and Done a lot of studying and stuff like that, uh for it

So it was it was great to go there and and certainly the the whole issue of his translation um textual issues translational methodology he

He had to use a dynamic translation methodology um, and that's relevant and and all the rest that kind of stuff fine

Well, here's the story that I want to get to in the few minutes. We've got here um

A few months ago a couple months before we got there um Ligonier ministries went on the same tour

And dr. Albert moeller While at the vartburg tweeted a picture

You know that was on facebook one of the two And when

I read the caption, I immediately started doing some reading and it was a picture of the place where fritz erba

Was imprisoned in the vartburg castle between 1541 and 1548 When he died so luther is there

Into 1521 1522 So 19 years later

Fritz erba Is imprisoned In the south tower, uh, actually, let me go back here a second the south tower

You couldn't see it from that other uh vantage point but here

I am, uh at this This would be at the bottom of the south tower looking up kathy took this picture for me

And oh, you gotta zoom back out of that. You're zoomed into it. Uh too far. So you gotta pull back out from that There we go, um there you see the south tower and the stairway

Fritz erba's cell is not where that stairway is. It's it's See how the stairway comes around the side?

halfway down the side over there on the right hand side is where the entrance to fritz erba's cell is

And i'm gonna go back from that Uh and show you what that looks like Um Well, here's looking out

Well, okay here's looking in From the stairway on the side of the tower at the

Point where you lower The person into this cell. Okay. It's a very small area

What we did and I was so thankful to mike and the sovereign staff After kathy and I they

They allowed me to go up early and go in early because they know I wanted to find this And so kathy and I went up It takes 50 cents to go up the south tower

And 40 it's only it's exactly 40 steps up to this you walk in and There is the description of it.

That's what you see looking down now You're gonna have to expand that This is difficult to see it's 30 feet down It's a good 30 feet down I mean it gave me the willies and I because i'm afraid of heights to look over it like that There are no windows

It is a hole In 1541 fritz erba was lowered into that hole.

Can you imagine? What it was like to be lowered into that hole

And to be there for seven years um, why was he there?

well, what we did is after I explained all this to kathy we went up to the top and we were talking and She said would you would you like to talk to the group about this?

And i'm like, yeah, I really would and so on the fly They worked it out to where we split our group in half and when they when they were done doing the castle tour

And we had a tight schedule so we had to do it quick Mike came up to that room set up a camera

And we we split the group in half and we sent one one half one group up And for about five or six minutes

I told the story of fritz erba And then put it in the context of what we were experiencing that day and then that group went down mike went down The second group came up.

We didn't record that one I did the same thing for them and and then we had to rush off to um that dinner that I saw that I showed you

I was simply struck by the The same contrast and the same tension

Standing looking down that hole That I had experienced

In 1990 when I first taught church history In 1990 when

I first taught church history I would would play the martin luther heretic bbc movie great movie

Well done about luther and standing before charles the fifth of the diet of verms and and you know here stay issues communist under his gut health amir and and all that and you're you're excited and it's like wow, that's that's great and And then we'd play the radicals

About michael sattler And how the anabaptists were treated by the reformers

Only a few years after luther stood And risked his life at verms

And how even luther was eventually willing to see the power of the state used to suppress the anabaptists

And I use this as a context to introduce the issue of sacralism And the state church and the fact the reformation was a sacral reformation and And all of that stuff all of that stuff but It just struck me with such power

As I stood there at fritz erba's cell and then went up to the went up to the top and I looked out um

You know, okay. Here's a here's here's a shot I looked out and here you see

The vartberg castle in the background and this right past the tower would be

Where luther's room was or right on this side? I forget which one where he translates the new testament

And I'm talking to kathy about it and it's maybe at most 100 meters

Maybe you know, maybe the length of a football field at most And in the one room we celebrate luther's

Um Bravery commitment we celebrate um

The the making available of god's word To the to people of god and there

I stand right above where fritz erba was imprisoned only 20 years later

And died 26 years later

Why Because he believed what luther translated You won't find much about erba

Don't have anything he wrote He was a farmer read the new testament

Came to conclusion that he shouldn't baptize his children that baptism was for believers by the late by 1533

I think when he's first arrested That's now illegal even in lutheran lands

Initially, he was down in the city um but the

Cell that he was imprisoned in had an outside window And he was preaching to people

And the people were supporting him And so he was dragged up the hill in 1541

And lowered into that hole and left there now, obviously they had to give him food

I don't know how he survived. I mean those castles You can just feel the cold in the stones

Those german winters. Oh my How did he survive for seven years?

All he had to do Was to recant It was just baptism

We have debates on that subject He wouldn't do it They think they found a skeleton in 2006.

They were doing some archaeological digs outside the walls of the castle and they Found a skeleton out there

And it was about where it was theorized. He would have been buried but the contrast

In only a hundred meters between what we must recognize

And honor In luther's stand for the truth translation of the bible

Into the common language all of that and yet If you don't recognize the importance

Of that sacral element that state church issue You know when

I when I told people when I told people in my group about this and I and I knew this is a danger There are some people who just look down that hole and they just go look

No christian could ever do that to another christian I just I can't it's not possible

Yeah, it is possible you can't church history

Can be so encouraging. It's so important to know it's the only time we can ever hold up a mirror to ourselves

It's so important, but it is so complex And it is so often grossly abused by being simplified in a way that it cannot be simplified can not be

Simplified and when you try to resolve the tension

That exists in that picture right there as I was standing. I'm thinking of the distance between where Erba is and luther's and luther's

Room would be And sort of right in between if you try to get rid of that tension

You turn the reformation into a cartoon You turn luther into a cartoon

You'll inevitably be turning zwingli and butzer and melanchthon or columpadius calvin

His successors You're going to turn them all into cartoons. They're not going to be real. I started the very first night

First lecture I gave first night in berlin I said look folks.

I am well aware of the fact that I would not have been welcomed in luther's wittenberg

Zwingli's zurich or calvin's geneva I'm well aware of that, but I can still honor what god did in these men's lives

And we will not be mature christian historians Until we come to that point

What really surprised me is mike said that's not that's not what people are told normally

You you start off with saying something that And nobody else

Had ever gone up, you know moeller went up took pictures of the erba thing We dragged our whole group up there to say

Got to think about this got to think about that and it provided a real deep context

For everything else that we saw when we go to erfurt we see the augustinian monastery when we're in eisleben or eisenach or It helped give us a context for the marburg colloquy

Uh at the castle at marburg the whole nine yards the heidelberg disputation everything that we saw

It helped give a rich meaningful context to it and so If you're one of those folks

That doesn't want to hear About fritz erba Because it makes you feel bad about martin luther

That's a simplistic approach to take And if you're also one of the folks that refuses to honor what god did in martin luther because of fritz erba or because the zwickau prophets or you you won't you won't

Honor what happened in zwingli's experience because of what happens with the anabaptists

It's a simplistic stance to take I know it's the easiest way To deal with what is a real tension, but it's in recognizing that tension and working through that tension that you really

Start to get a feel For what church history is all about And so Honored to have had that opportunity um and hopefully this brief introduction will you know give you an idea of of Of You know when when when

I when I preached from the pulpit in wittenberg And that I call that a life experience.

It's not because i'm idol. I'm i'm idol putting luther up as an idol I recognize

His weaknesses, but what I rejoice in is I recognize my own too

And what church history allows you to do is to look back and go if god could use people with weaknesses like that Then he can use them today, too.

That's me Hello, that's me That's why I can appreciate people in the past that I wouldn't agree with everything

That they did I know some people in my own experience

That would not have enjoyed that trip simply because every pretty much every church you walked into. Oh, oh

Oh, it's different than mine. Oh, there's oh, it's a crucifix over there. There's oh, there's symbols everywhere.

Oh And I and I just go It doesn't does it is it not important to you?

What's what they believed about these things? Isn't it important what god did in their lives?

You do realize you've been deeply influenced by them whether you know it or not Can you can you allow them to be them and you'd be you and maybe to think through?

Where you are in light of some of the things that church history can really be challenging to people

Because like I said, it's the one time you can hold a mirror up to yourself and sometimes what you see in the mirror Isn't what you want to see in the mirror

That's certainly been my experience in in dealing with church history so so much more there but like I said

These videos are going to come out eventually and so the lecture

I gave There in Vartburg at the castle The lecture I gave at Fritz Erba's cell,

I I wonder if anybody else has

Has ever done that? because because poor Mike had to Blast herself against the wall and sort of hold the camera like because there's there's just no room we could get about 12 13 people in there.

That was it And Again, I I can't say thanks enough

They're just you couldn't go on a tour With anybody else that would do for you

What Sovereign will do? Because they're doing it for the right reason Mike wanted to do that because Mike was just as moved by what

I said as anybody else Kathy as well, Janica they're all like wow doc, that's

That's That's deep stuff. We've got to we've got to we've got to record this we've got to get this recorded Did it put extra pressure on everybody?

Yeah But we did it And something tells me that in the future.

Mike's gonna be suggesting to future groups. He takes there. Let me go show you something Let's let's add one other little thing in here and and the sovereign staff even went and got the 50 euro pieces

So that all of our people you're sitting there plunking them into the little thing lets you go up the stairway to the south south tower

That's how prepared these folks are it was it was it was awesome it really really was and So i'll have more to say about that in the future, but especially when the videos come out

Uh, the lectures that we did they've all been recorded. They'll all be posted. We'll let you know about it And hopefully you can sort of come along with us in that way

Um, but I will tell you this right now we don't have dates But we were talking

I did a lot of um bus lecturing because we would take They did it. They did it really smart.

We went to various places We went to three went to only three places. We went to berlin um uh weimar weimar and uh frankfurt and then we took bus

From those central locations to the places where we'd go each day, but you didn't have to pack up and repack every night

That really helped but it meant you had to spend time the bus. Well, we redeemed that time By doing bus lectures

And I had a lot of fun doing that. Uh, nope, no notes or anything. Just Let's talk about where we're going and what why it's important everything else and and everybody loved it um

But I think it was on the bus or maybe it's the last night in frankfurt It was last night in frankfurt the last talk that uh, josh bison

I gave Um And basically I said, all right, this was so great

But we're not done with the reformation. We did the german reformation But we need to do the swiss reformation

We need to hit strasbourg with martin buetzer We need to hit zurich with uh zwingli

I need to hit geneva with calvin Uh, yeah calvin's second generation. I get that but if we do if we do see buetzer

Was at the heidelberg disputation in 1518 And became a follower of martin luther at that time and uh real quick uh

When we went to heidelberg, by the way if you If you ever get a chance to go

This guy I I got I just got I'm I know i'm going over this guy

Was our guide And he took the persona of one of the builders

There are numerous builders because it's done stages of the castle in heidelberg He has a master's degree in history from trinity college in dublin.

He's doing another master's there in heidelberg He stayed in character the whole time till we were done then afterwards

He and I started talking we ended up knowing some folks at trinity and in communist stuff. He was awesome

He was so good so entertaining so knowledgeable That it was

I just can't even we were tipping him because he was just so good

It made the tour Really really worthwhile, but then we went Then we went down into the city where you could uh go, um and find this and thankfully

It wasn't under a car because it's in a parking area uh, but here is the uh mark that the marker of where The and um 26 april 1518 luther representing the augustinian cloister uh

Had the heidelberg disputation And this is where luther first lays out his his perspective

And there are two people there Two people there martin butzer Becomes the reformer of strasbourg very very important And then another man named johann ek

And he will debate ek in leipzig the next year and ek becomes his lifelong enemy a brilliant man ek um brilliant man sadly for error, but a brilliant man, um

So this was down in the in the city. These are the types of things you get to You get to see

And and do and like I said, I could start just going through i've got I took hundreds of pictures One last thing just one last thing, please pray.

Sorry, please pray For kareem uh, that's our bus driver and what

I did Go ahead and minimize that down. You don't have to take but um kareem's from turkey and When I went to the gutenberg museum,

I skipped the museum found a bookstore took me a while and I bought a uh

A bible a german bible for kareem And when

I gave it to him there um, he said ah, but dr. White he says, uh

I'm a muslim And I said, okay. Well You know it says in surah 5 that uh

Allah sent down the gospel and I was just trying to get him to read one of the gospels. I was showing him one of the gospels and uh so pray for him because He had looked me up and he had even said to me at one point

He said I I looked you up last night when we were in weimar So I looked you up last night on on google and he says you're you're an important guy.

He says, uh He says, uh someday i'm gonna be telling my kids that I knew dr. White in germany