Will Brent Leatherwood Take the ERLC in a Different Direction?

Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast, I'm your host John Harris. Glad to be back in the chair today, not on the road, looking at a fall day, an overcast fall day outside as I think we're still actually getting the system from the hurricane that hit Florida, it's traveled on up the coast and I think that's what's causing what I'm seeing right now.

But we definitely need the rain, so I'm thankful for it, but man, it's been, in my life personally, very busy the last few weeks and I was able to celebrate most recently over the weekend with family my grandfather's 100th birthday, which is incredible.

I can't believe that he's still able to walk and he has his mind, he has his wits about him, he can still make jokes, and so that was a big deal. We had actually like three different kind of celebrations during the course of the week and it's just, it's wonderful to be with family.

I was in California for the last week and we flew back very late getting in on Sunday night and we, of course, are on California time, and it always happens this way, doesn't.

It?

We get in and I'm waiting there for our, we had parked our car at a garage and I'm waiting there for like, I don't know, 45 minutes and finally I said, you know, I don't know if the shuttle's coming, so I called the company and they said, well, we're waiting for the police to show up because there's been an accident with the shuttle.

So I thought, okay, I gotta take a taxi, so I took a taxi and we got to have that experience, taxi riding in New Jersey, and then get into our car and we drove whatever it is, the two hours almost it is to get to our house, and so we get to bed late and I'm laying there exhausted from the day and I can't sleep because I'm on California time.

So I was probably up to like three in the morning Eastern time, but Western time, that's only midnight, only midnight, and I know some of you, you go to bed at like 7, 8 p .m., but in the course of, it's funny to me, in the course of only a week, actually a week and a half, I acclimated to staying up to like 1130 midnight and I'm still trying to get out of it.

I'm still, my days are lopsided, so I don't know what I'm going to do, but I need to do something exerting, something that makes me really tired, I guess, so I'll go to bed earlier. Anyway, that's what I'm going through, all the woes of first world problems, right?

And then I get back and my propane tank is, the company that I use for fuel, they haven't delivered the propane tank and it's been like three weeks, I've said, I need a propane tank for the upstairs apartment that we've been renovating, we're almost done with that, and it's still not there.

So I've been on the phone yesterday and today and I'm probably going to have to switch companies, so that's, when you have, what do I have, like four subs, it's, five I think actually, five subs, that is also an ordeal, so I'm dealing with that, and then we had another birthday, family birthday party last night, which was great, but I just feel like I'm like driving here and there and I sat down at this chair right here that I'm sitting in right now and I thought, ah, deep breath, I'm home, and we're going to get into some, now some social justice stuff.

But seriously though, there's been a lot on my agenda as far as things to talk about. People have been asking me a lot of questions and I realize, I said all that I just said to give you this information, I am getting to it, it's just been one thing after another, so yes, the questions about the retreat, I am going to be answering those within the next two days.

The questions about speaking or just other things, I know a lot of people have sent me, John, have you seen this, have you seen that? I am keeping an eye on things as much as I can, but there's going to be just a lot of me digesting information over the next two days.

And so I wanted to give you some things that have been a little bit on the back burner since I've been traveling that, it's old news, but it's not. It's old news in the sense that some of the things that I want to talk about have, other people have been talking about, but I don't think they brought up some of the things that I'm going to bring up about those situations.

So we're going to do some SBC stuff I think today and tomorrow, and then after that, we'll get to some other things, we'll step outside SBC stuff and we'll talk about more national things and that's the plan at least.

We'll see how that goes. For those who have asked about the book club that we're going to do, yes, we're going to do that still. And the book is, the first book we're going to go over is Ideas Have Consequences.

And I explained, I think it's important to have really good books, really good information that helps us understand the context in which we're living. We also need really good biblical analysis, exegetical preaching, understanding of the text.

We need that. And I think a lot of you who listen, I'm not saying all of you, but a lot of you I think have that. You have resources to go to, whether it's, you know, I was about to say Desiring God and then I caught myself, I meant, Renewing Your Mind.

Is it Renewing Your Mind?

R .C.

Sproul. What's R .C.

Sproul's?

I'm forgetting the name of his, well, R .C.

Sproul.

R .C.

You listen to R .C. Sproul or Grace to You, John MacArthur, or, you know, you have a pastor, hopefully a good local pastor that you're gleaning from and you're in the word yourself. That's the most important thing.

But I think often what, I think in terms of supplements, what needs to be supplemented oftentimes is an understanding of the world we live in. You can't apply the scripture you're learning at least as well when you don't understand and you don't have to be an expert like philosopher or something, but at least you need to know a little bit about what's going on.

And I think there's so much deception out there, especially in the Christian world, so much just incomplete or flat out wrong analysis of what we're living in and what the working issues are that I think it neutralizes Christians.

Even Christians who understand the Bible very well, they don't know how to exactly apply all the principles that they have in their mind because they're misreading what is right in front of them. And so my purpose with the book club, at least initially, is to give you some really good books that I think help you understand the context in which we're living.

And the first one is going to be Ideas Have Consequences by Richard Weaver. And this isn't like a Christian book in the sense that we often think of a Christian genre.

Of books.

This is really just a book, kind of pop philosophy, but it's analyzing the world that we live.

In.

And even though it was written in 1947, it's a critique of modernity. And I think it would help a lot of us. I know it helped me tremendously in understanding how to navigate issues. So that's going to be coming probably closer to the holidays.

And I think it's important we do this also just to have a positive, something positive that we're about something. So it's not just, look at what these evangelical leaders are doing. Look how they're deviating from biblical orthodoxy.

But we're also rebuilding also. We have something positive that we want to advocate. And so starting out with some books that I can recommend to you, not just books that we're going through for the purpose of showing you the error, but books that actually have something positive.

I think that's important. We need that. So that's coming probably closer to the holidays. I'll let you know. If you're a patron, I'm figuring out ways to include you in a more intimate fashion. I'm not sure exactly how that's all going to work yet, but there will be probably a live stream link that you'll have and the recording will be that particular link.

And then you'll be able to participate in a chat box or questions or something like that, something of that nature. And then I'll broadcast it to everyone on the podcast, but the normal listener won't have the opportunity to interact like the patrons will.

So that's what I'm thinking. So anyway, that's coming. The retreat's coming up. You can, by the way, still sign up. We are past the deadline, but still have not filled up. There's still some spots left.

So you want to get on it quick, but you can still sign up for the retreat. I'll put the link in the info section for that October 28th through 30th with Dr. Russell.

Fuller.

It's going to be a great time. I know some of you have been maybes, and I would encourage you to get off the fence and commit if you're going to come. So more information for those who have committed to coming later in the week.

Right now, though, before we get started with today's topic in which we'll start examining the ERLC a little bit and just some changes there, and we'll see how far it takes us into the Southern Baptist world, I want to let you know about a great company if you're looking.

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Well, on Gold River, at Gold River Trading Company, you don't have to worry about that. So get yourself some tea for the season. Now, let's get into what I wanted to talk about today, and this is now going back at least a few weeks ago, but I'm on the website for the ERLC, the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission for the Southern Baptist Convention, and here's my prediction for the ERLC.

They have a new president, Brent Leatherwood, and my prediction is more of the same. You're not gonna get someone that comes into the ERLC that's going to change the direction of the ERLC. Russell Moore obviously was the previous head of the ERLC before he went to Christianity today, and he's now the editor-in-chief there.

He obviously led the Southern Baptist Convention in a very left-leaning direction. If you doubt me, go look up all the videos and podcasts I've done on Russell Moore. We've talked about it. Off the top of my head, I could probably rattle off a number of things that Russell Moore did while he was in that position to compromise Southern Baptists.

He was the one that said he wouldn't attend a homosexual wedding, but he would go to the reception for a homosexual wedding. Well, what does that mean? He played this kind of, I'm conservative, but I'm also kind of liberal, I'm on the fence, so often, and what it ended up doing in a conservative denomination like the Southern Baptists is it pushed the needle left.

At least he helped a lot with pushing the needle left, and I also know that from being a seminary student at Southeastern. I know how many of the young seminarians kind of looked to Dr. Russell Moore as this just wise sage, this person who was able to, in a very nuanced way, navigate cultural landmines that are normally problems for Christians, but he could do it in a winsome way in which, let's just say the world, the forces against Christianity weren't offended, and they respected Dr. Russell Moore.

I mean, he got to write for the New York Times, the Washington Post, and he was prophetic, and his prophetic-ness was him calling out the church, conservative Christians for hypocrisy in certain ways.

He put a lot more energy towards calling out the church, quote unquote, than he did calling out the world and the sins that are popular that the church is tempted by, and it's sad to me. So we did a lot of material over the last few years on Dr. Russell Moore, his immigration policies, his partnership with the Evangelical Immigration Table, his sexuality and his just halfway measures on sexual issues, homosexuality in particular, on his disdain for evangelicals who supported President Trump.

I don't really know what else to call it. It really was. And so with Russell Moore, you had the ERLC going in this terrible direction. And the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission hasn't really changed.

Some conservatives want to abolish it. Some just thought, well, if we get the right people in there, then we could have a better Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. The Southern Baptist Convention can really do a lot better.

It can get involved in politics in better ways. And so the moment came very recently when the new head of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission was named. And that's Brent Leatherwood. Now, Brent Leatherwood has been with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission for some time.

He was serving as the acting president since September 2021, and he had been previously involved as the executive director of the Tennessee Republican Party, the director of communications and policy strategy in the Tennessee General Assembly.

And he worked for several years on Capitol Hill. And so he is someone, you know, Russell Moore came from Democrat politics. Well, Brent Leatherwood came from Republican politics, right? Isn't that good?

And I thought at the time, this is someone from within the ERLC. This is someone who's been there. This isn't going to be someone who's going to come in and change the direction and break everything up.

They're just not going to let that happen. So I was not surprised to find out that Brent Leatherwood was very much in the same vein as Russell Moore. And so how do you know that, John? Well, let me play for you this clip first and you tell me what you think.

Does this sound like he's going to change the direction from where Russell Moore took it or does this sound like he's going to keep the direction going the same way it has been.

For a while?

What are some very tangible things that Christians can do to engage the culture in the midst of a global pandemic and in the midst of such a volatile political season?

Yeah.

You know, my boss, Russell Moore, one of the things that really attracted me to come in and serve here at the ERLC is he's got this phrase, we need to engage the culture without losing the gospel. And so, you know, what we try and counsel Christians to do is get out there and engage people on the issues that matter, the only issues that Christians really care about, but do so in a way that builds a constructive bridge so that the gospel can actually be shared with people who might be unbelieving, might be skeptical, just overall a watching world because we are, you know, we are, we're ambassadors for Christ.

And particularly in this culture that is fallen. And, you know, a lot of people would say is very adversarial towards Christianity, which, I mean, newsflash, since Genesis 3, culture has been adversarial towards us.

But what I would say is just make sure that you are comporting yourself, you are conducting yourself in a way that honors Christ. And, you know, that is a way that I tried to govern myself in my previous roles.

I ran the Tennessee Republican Party for four years before coming to this role and ran a number of campaigns prior to that. And I always tried to govern myself with this principle in mind. Is it, do folks find you agreeable to disagree with?

Are you a joy to disagree with? In other words, you can have very deep disagreements, but are folks, do they see charity emanating from you? Do they see that you are actually trying to help them along?

And I think if we all did that as Christians, particularly in this chaotic, very polarized moment that we're living in, man, that would go a whole, that'd go a long way.

Well, there you have it. Brent Leatherwood wanting to follow the pattern of Russell Moore in engaging culture, engaging culture without losing the gospel, he says. Now, this particular interview dropped on YouTube, November 2nd, 2020.

And Russell Moore was still at the ERLC at that point. And so Brent Leatherwood is basically saying, this is the pattern. This is who I admire. We're going to do it this way, except for the fact that if you think about it, and if you've listened to this program for any amount of time, Dr. Russell Moore did compromise the gospel.

I give an example in Christianity and social justice, religions, and conflict, where Dr. Russell Moore says at the MLK 50 event that Christians who don't care enough about sanitation workers and other social justice issues, they need the gospel preached to them again because they don't really have it.

But you know, who had it was Martin Luther King Jr. And of course, Martin Luther King Jr. was a false teacher. He didn't have the gospel. He didn't have, he wasn't orthodox in his understanding of the gospel.

And yet here you have Dr. Russell Moore in that particular speech saying, follow the pattern of MLK. He had, he knew how to really preach the gospel. And Christians today, evangelicals today, they don't have it because they just don't care enough about justice issues.

So who's, what's the basis for the, for receiving, understanding, apprehending the gospel? What's the basis for the finished work of Christ being applied to our accounts? Is it our works? Is it the amount, the level to which we care about social justice, or is it Jesus Christ's work and his work alone?

That's the question. And that's always been the question, the soteriological question with social justice. And Russell Moore at best monies the water. I would say he preaches a false gospel at times. And this is the person that Brent Leatherwood thinks really does a good job because, you know, he builds this constructive bridge to the watching world.

And how does he do that? Well, it's a joy to disagree with. If it's a joy to disagree with you and from the world standpoint, from people who disagree with Christianity, then you must be doing it right.

And the question I have is from whose perspective is it, does the watching world that hates Christianity, when they disagree with Christians, are they thinking such a joy to disagree with this person?

And because they say that you're then vindicated, or is it, I mean, could you wind up with a scenario where you've done everything you possibly can? You've spoken in a very nice tone, but they're still offended because you've spoken the truth.

You've said that marriage is between a man and a woman, and they just can't take that, even though you say it very gently. There's some Bible verses, I think that apply to this. There's many actually, Matthew 10, 22, you will be hated by all because of my name.

And, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. John 15, 18, the world hates you. You know, that hated me before it hated you. And we could go on and on. There's so many verses. And in the old Testament as well, there's verses along these lines.

So if you look at the old Testament example of what being prophetic is, there's a lot of hatred, especially toward towards the people that are being confronted for their sin, which are people that are disobeying the law of God and in blatant ways, idolatry, sexual immorality, and they don't want to be corrected.

And Russell Moore saves his powder. He keeps it dry until there's an evangelical to blast for some kind of hypocrisy or something he can come up with. That's the way that Russell Moore has practiced being quote unquote prophetic.

It's not the pattern you have from the old Testament. It's not the pattern you see in Jesus or the disciples. In fact, if the world loves you, that's a bad sign. Now that you do have verses like in first Timothy three, verse seven, you have verses that say that if one wants to be an elder, it's in the qualifications, he must have a good reputation with those outside the church so that he will not fall into the reproach and snare of the devil.

Well, why is that there? Well, it's simple. Think about the job that you have. Are you ethical on the job? Are you pilfering from your employer? If you're doing unethical things, then that's not something that's going to get you a good reputation necessarily in the world if it's hurting other people, people that you're accountable to, people that rely on you, people you have obligations to.

So if your family, even if they're not Christian, knows that you're stealing from them or abusing them in some way and you have a bad reputation because of that, that's a good indication that you shouldn't be an elder.

And so I think I'm trying to think of verses that you could appeal to to say that you must have a good reputation with the world. This one though, I don't think would, it wouldn't be, at best what it would mean is that you just have a good overall, a good character.

So you could have someone, I had employers like this who just did not agree with my social views that came from Christianity at all. Yet they knew I was a good employer and I was, I had a good reputation.

I've always had good reputations on the jobs that I've had pretty much. So that's what first Timothy is looking for in the actual relationships where you have obligations, where people can see your day-to-day life.

Are you who you say you are? You could, I can think of Matthew 5, 16 as well as another verse that might apply. It says, let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your father who is in heaven.

Now, the question I think here is what, what mechanism exists for that transfer or that not transfer, but that reaction of glorifying God based upon noticing these good works. Well, that that's going to be, I think, a work of God that's going, it doesn't come from a darkened heart because in the book of John, it says that the darkness hated the light and because its deeds were evil, men hated light because their deeds were evil.

So they run towards darkness. That's the natural state of man. So if you let your light shine, then it, when people see your good works and the, and they glorify your father who is in heaven, that is what we're commanded to do.

But that doesn't mean that people who hate God, that's going to be their reaction. There's, God's going to have to do a work in order for that to happen. That's what I believe. So, cause I have to make sense of all the various verses.

And there's so many about the world, hating us as Christians. Matthew 24, nine, same book, right? That we just quoted from about letting your light shine before men. Then they will deliver you to tribulation and we'll kill you.

And you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Sounds great, right? You have to just, you have to realize what the full, the full spectrum of Christianity, what the Bible teaches on this. You have to understand that.

I think first, before you can start making these honestly irresponsible statements that Brent Leatherwood makes about, well, you need to, you need to be a joy to disagree with. I think there's a sense in which we can say, yeah, you should, you shouldn't be a raving, a raging lunatic, and you shouldn't be just going off on people and you shouldn't be just angry at full steam.

And the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. But that's not what he said. He said that you should build a constructive bridge to a watching world, meaning the people that disagree with Christianity, and you should be a joy to disagree with.

From their perspective today, I don't see how that's going to be possible in most instances. I mean, there's no way to sugarcoat that you believe in traditional or biblical marriage. How, how do you make, how do you get someone from the other side of that debate to say, well, it's just a joy disagreeing with you?

It's, it's going to become more rare and more rare. And there's wartime leaders and there's peacetime leaders. And in the situation we're in right now, Brent Leatherwood is showing he's not a wartime leader.

If that's his posture, if it's not, we need to take every thought captive to Christ. We need to destroy these earthly philosophies that are making war against Christ. We need to make sure the church remains pure because there's so many threats from the outside.

We need to make sure we are a true prophetic voice, which means the world is going to be angry at us. And guess what? When they persecute us for Jesus, we counted all joy. That's what you need to hear from Brent Leatherwood.

And he's not saying it. He's not saying it. So that's, that's Russell Moore-esque. And that's, I think, why a lot of people who knew who Brent Leatherwood was, weren't that excited about this. But I wanted you to hear from his mouth exactly what he's saying.

So, well, John, maybe Brent Leatherwood is more in that Russell Moore vein, but what about, you know, the positions he has? Maybe he's not as radical or social justice-minded as Russell Moore. Well, here's Brent Leatherwood on social justice, specifically the BLM iteration of social justice.

The sanctity of human life from, from the womb to the tomb. And part of that is social justice reform, justice reform. And we look at what happened earlier this year with the killings of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd.

And, and the church must acknowledge, right, that, that even in the midst of a, a highly, a highly….

Contentious.

…pretentious, yes, that, that, that we are, that we're recognizing that, that the, the, the human dignity, the sanctity of life is that wide, that wide gap from beginning to end.

That's right.

Yeah.

And that we need to stand and, and, and, and be a part of the answer to, to the world's problem in that regard, right?

That's right. I mean, look, Christians are called to, to be advocates for the widow, the orphan, and, and the marginalized. And for, for folks who, you know, that they feel embattled by their local law enforcement, I really feel like we can be a voice that, that gets in there to, to help rectify that.

Situation.

Because you can both affirm, right, that the vast majority of police officers out there are good folks. That are, they're just trying to keep community safe.

Yes.

But then at the same time realize that maybe some of the, the policies themselves are, are, are in some ways oppressing the folks that are in the community. Like we can bridge that gap. This is not an impossible thing to, to, to bridge.

And I think we could be a really helpful voice in that. And, you know, you mentioned several instances that have taken place over the last year that are just heartbreaking. You know, so whether it was George Floyd or Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, those, those are instances that should grieve the heart of Christians.

And I feel like we have a duty to speak up for those individuals, for their families that have been afflicted, and to say that we can do better because that's, that's what.

God calls us to.

So you can see he accepts the basic premise of much of the BLM movement, although the where he deviates somewhat is he tries to say, well, you know, most police officers are, they're not bad, but he blames policy.

So these policies though are, and we need to change them. And he doesn't get specific, what policies, what, what policies would have led to different outcomes? I wonder with George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, what, what was the flaw that the URLC can then step in and do what he's saying, bridge the gap.

I don't think you're going to get specifics. Uh, it's the assumption that these things are motivated somehow by racism is, is just, it's there in this particular clip, uh, that it's not all police officers, but there is this, uh, this hyper-focus on, uh, incidences that BLM has then used to try to push for a narrative that there's systemic injustice in police departments and that there needs to be fundamental change somehow.

And, and Brent Leatherwood is going along with that. So instead of pushing back, which is, I think what you would need to hear from someone on the URLC, who's going to lead the URLC and pushback would look like, you know, listen, we're getting a false narrative here about the police and it's, it's tragic.

And, uh, we need to realize that there's, this is actually harming real people when police officers stop doing their jobs. It's called the Ferguson effect and they don't police areas. They pull out of areas.

Their rules of engagement are less aggressive. And so, uh, you end up letting criminals do what criminals do. And we need to, as Christians take a stand against that. We need to uphold law and order. We need to, uh, make sure that there's not this misunderstanding and misrepresentation lying, right?

That's kind of a bad thing. And this equal unequal weights and measures in which, uh, when things happen to white people that are comparable, they're not focused on at all. It's only those, uh, particular circumstances that will forward the agenda that paints the police as somehow racist.

We need to, uh, make sure that we're not in league with people who are lying and using unequal weights and measures to afford a amounts to a Marxist agenda. You're not hearing that from him though. He goes along with it once again, which is similar to Russell Moore.

So I don't expect any change from the ERLC based on that. Well, you say, well, John, maybe, maybe the greatest threat though, is the whole COVID stuff we saw. We saw what the federal government did to churches and how churches were marked in so many areas as non-essential.

Whereas even liquor stores were essential. How does that work? Well, here's Brent Leatherwood on that particular topic. Listen for yourself.

One of the main things I think that a lot of Christians are asking today is, um, with everything that's going on with, uh, John MacArthur in California and other pastors throughout the nation is religious liberty under attack in America.

You know, actually, if you just look at, uh, this just expired Supreme court term, I mean, we're talking here the 1st of October. So a new Supreme court term has started. But the one that just ended in June, uh, actually, if you just take a step back, uh, religious liberty is in many ways, the strongest that it has been, uh, at least in recent history.

Uh, we just had a Supreme court case, um, that was decided the, um, Our Lady of Guadalupe case where the majority opinion actually cited, uh, the amicus brief that the RLC, uh, submitted to the court, uh, which we were thrilled about.

I mean, that, that's just not something that, uh, happens a lot. Now, granted, you kind of have to be a bit of a legal nerd or a court nerd, uh, to probably really appreciate that. But the, the core of the finding stated that, uh, churches and religious institutions, they can hire people consistent with their beliefs.

And there's nothing that, uh, any secular institution or government can do to, to overcome.

That.

So essentially what that means is, is churches like yours, churches like the one I go to, uh, they are protected in their Orthodox beliefs to build the teams, uh, that are consistent with their, with their, uh, beliefs.

And so that's a really important religious liberty holding, uh, and it's something that we want to draw attention to. Now, look, in this moment, we are living in just an incredible time. Uh, so there are naturally going to be, uh, collisions, uh, between, uh, church and state.

And we have spoken to, uh, the ones where there are, uh, really legitimate concerns where maybe the government has overstepped its ground. So, uh, just recently Capitol Hill Baptist, uh, in, uh, Washington DC, um, they have really tried to extend themselves, uh, to meet the standards, uh, that the city of Washington DC has put in place, uh, for religious institutions.

And, uh, they've worked within the parameters. They, they even, uh, have tried, uh, to get, uh, feedback from the Washington DC city folks, uh, saying, hey, we would like to host an outdoor service. They have been meeting across the river in Virginia, uh, at a satellite location.

But just recently Washington DC said, hey, we're going to start permitting outdoor services. And they tried to get an answer from them and they just haven't been able to do that. And so they, they finally said, hey, we're going to, uh, file a lawsuit against you.

And that is a very legitimate thing for them to do because they have tried to partner with officials in Washington DC. So, um, like this is a, uh, this is a crazy time for sure.

So there you have it. We're at an all-time high apparently for religious liberty. It's, it's in better condition, uh, than it has been in recent memory. And, uh, John MacArthur's situation just ignored by Brent Leatherwood, even though that's brought up by the interviewer.

And he goes to a site, Nine Marks and Capitol Hill Baptist Church, because, you know, they worked with the officials. They're working with them. And that's the important thing. You work with those officials.

I'm all about working with officials, but you got to know who you're dealing with. And, uh, if anything, I mean, Jonathan Lehman was the one who was, you went out there and said, uh, before you follow John MacArthur and just open up, wait, wait, right.