Pastors' Panel Podcast

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00:01

This is the pastors panel podcast. I'm with Claude. I'm with Dan I'm with Jonathan and I'm thankful for these guys joining me

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Before we get started and jump into our subject tonight. Let me pray for us father we

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We know apart from Christ we can do nothing We can

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We can not we can't do good. We can't obtain knowledge. We can't apply what we learn. We can't know who you are

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Without your spirit without your son without your word and father we are in total reliance and dependence upon you for everything for salvation for our sanctification our justification for for all good works for our our gospel proclamation and We come with humility and gratitude that you

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Work in our hearts and Drew us to you We pray that you would use this time

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That we have together tonight for your honor and your glory would you teach us modus and make us to who you would have us to be as brothers as men as we

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Lead our families as we lead in our churches For the

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For the glory of Jesus Christ our King and we pray in his name.

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Amen All right. Oh, we lost Jonathan He'll be back.

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It's really he'll be back Alright, so we're gonna continue. I Don't know usually in this conversation

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We're talking about partial preterism. We're talking about Post millennialism because we're we have some folks that have questions want to learn more about this this side of eschatology and so from my understanding the the subject

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The subject kind of Begins and ends with with verse 34, but I know that there's some

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Other questions once you get past 34, so we may end up going to the through the whole

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The whole chapter and that would be cool But at least up to verse 34 until everybody gets tired of talking about eschatology and we could talk about something else but I Think it's a wonderful subject as we we sharpen iron with one another and we grow together

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We've been through verses 1 through 20 and tonight we're starting in Matthew chapter 24 verse 21 and it's a it's a good one to start on because it

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I think it can open up a can of worms and Verse 21 says for then there will be a great tribulation

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There's a big buzzword for eschatology. It will be a great tribulation such as not

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Occurred since the beginning beginning of the world until now nor ever shall be

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I Have a response. I guess I would be coming with a defense of the partial preterist position and I don't know if you guys want me to to throw my two cents in first or if anybody because I know

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You're coming this coming out this verse from two different viewpoints the futurist viewpoint where we're looking for this great tribulation to come

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And then you've got the partial preterist that says this was fulfilled. Of course

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The culmination was 70 AD so Does anybody want to start or or I can start us off?

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So so you just defined right you just defined what partial preterism is and I think on the previous episodes that You had mentioned you just use the term preterism

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So the difference I think in in in eschatology is harsh as important as it is in our day and time it's important that that churchmen really understand that difference between Preterism partial preterism futurist view right in in the kind of the the overarching

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That the kind of kind of like the parentheses that are around the terms right we think about Postmeal all meal and pre meal, right?

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so the pre meal position and and I'm not and I'm just wanting to kind of frame this to make sure that that I'm Coming at this the same way as you all so When we think about the futurist position

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Are you referring to the pre millennial dispensational view? Mm -hmm, right? Yeah, and then and then the

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Though the preterist view really is an extreme. Would you agree?

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Would you all agree the full preterist view is a dream? Yeah Yeah, because they say that basically, you know prophecy all of the prophecies have already been fulfilled

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Right, right including the second coming which would include the resurrection Which really when it comes down down to it when we get to the you know, the biblical challenge of full preterism

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I mean we can go to 1st Corinthians chapter 15, right Paul in in in ad 50

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Whatever is it 1st Corinthians was written. He's addressing the issue that the same issue that was coming up Concerning the resurrection, right?

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Because that's what he goes into he addresses the issue of the gospel And then he reminds him there's some among you who say the resurrection is already passed or already taken place so that's that's that thing gets important when we talk about this for me to keep, you know, kind of subdivided in my head and then partial preterism basically is

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Already fulfilled and not yet fulfilled, right? But when when we think about Revelation or Matthew 24

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Luke, you know latter portions of Luke and Mark's Mark's accounts there as well we see those things fulfilled or the

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Post -millennialist all -millennial sees those things fulfilled in the

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Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 and I'm on the right track here where you all have been

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I just want to make sure that I'm not, you know, I'm not behind or or going in something something is that's wrong

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Here, I just want to make sure that I'm on the same page so I can I can understand what you all say or you know are talking about and saying

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So We I was probably I was raised

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I don't know about everybody else I was raised You know pretty hyper premillennial dispensational, you know and Probably now

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I lean Historical premillennial which is sort of like I'm not convinced of a pre -trib rapture holistically

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But I'm not Post -millennial right now either, you know, I'm still there's a lot of questions that I have and and So I like hanging out with people different points of view than me and that's where you know

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I think that's what's so beautiful about this is is I think the heart behind all this is too is this is an open -handed issue that we don't have to divide fellowship over but it is great to have joyful conversation and and and and be honest about questions and be humble to learn and you know and grow together in that and and learn each other's perspectives, you know at the end of the day because I think as It's not that scripture evolves at all

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But we are constantly changing, you know, we are constantly being sanctified we are constantly growing and there's things that I held great value in growing up and You know, for example the discussion on Calvinism, you know, and those things, you know it

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I Was pretty angry when I first preached to the Book of Romans You know and With these things and then all of a sudden it's really not not about me and it's not me in control

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It's not me that did all this. There's somebody else that did this and so anyways, you know, I think that's where we're at I hope

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I hope everyone's humble enough to say we're all still in journey and none of us But we do all have convictions too and we have good reasons to have our convictions, you know

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And so we respect that and share that so so you feel free to share your position I know I've not been in the last few

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For being out of town and stuff, but I think that captures the heart of it. Don't it Robert? I mean, that's I mean, so I think it's fair for you to go ahead and start with your definition

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I didn't mean to cut you off card if you want to oh, no, no, no, that's fine in it General it genuinely it just helps me, you know to as far as dividing dividing up my thoughts to have those definitions and I think that's a

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To to what you were saying there too is is a big plays a big role in our

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How that we relate to one another if we have set defined terms

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Right first, so when we say I'm talking about a all meal I'm talking about a post meal I'm talking about a pre meal.

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We know what we know what's being said amongst us Without there being any kind of a negative, you know a negative connotation.

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Yeah I appreciate you bringing up that point because I think it is good for those that may be watching for us to to make

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Clarifications from to draw lines to let people know where we are and and all of us

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The reason we can have unity is because we all do draw that line at full preterism

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Because we would I think we would all agree that that's heresy yeah, but on the other side of that line and it was brought up in a past video that Those are on the the pre meal dispensational camp

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You they would I think they would cross their arms and they would say, you know, I'm I'm not partial preterist and kind of Turn their eyebrows down to the term preterism, but it was it was a good point was brought up that Well, we're all partial preterist because preterist preterist just means past so we believe that there were there were some prophecies fulfilled like the virgin birth

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That's in the past that was fulfilled that's preterist that's bad But when we use them to carry consequences with them because of people's experiences

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Right, and and I've met really condescending hateful pre -millennialist and I've met really hateful condescending post meal and You know that word kindness is not there and then that kind of sticks with you as an identifier

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Then all are this way, you know, I've met militant Calvinist and militant Arminianist I would say everybody in this chat rooms charismatic if you go by the strictest definition of just gifted but if I call you charismatic then

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Hold on a minute now that Again again the importance of defining the terms

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When I say that I call both of you You know, no, but really I mean if we do the word charisma, you know, we have gifts now

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We could discuss that again. That's another one of those open -handed issues in my opinion Of course hyper in any of those directions.

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I don't think any of us agree with but I'm just saying, you know, but but Just the

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Greek word charisma. I mean just it's okay. We can have some charisma we can have Gifts and but if you say well, we're all charismatic

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Well, are we you know? What you relate that to you, you know what you what your experience with that is and and But I want to be a charismatic preacher

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I want to be a gifted Preacher that reaches with passion if I define it that way, you know with passion and with zeal and with with understanding and and Relating it to people and exegeting the word correctly.

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And so if that's your word of being a charismatic pastor versus a guy that's slinging his coat and You know knocking people over So that makes sense,

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I think it's the same thing eschatology terminology too is yeah, we have a We have a term that You know and and I would say

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Not only are all Preterists, but all our future is too. I mean all have a hope of the future of promises that was made for the future

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So so again, it really that's why I'm taking passages like this and sort of breaking it down I've seen where in those points of view

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This is what I see in this and my understanding of this and here's my multiple plethora of cross references and then here's another perspective and here's my plethora of cross references and and at the end of the day, you know

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We we have to continue to seek and to search the scriptures and search the spirit and truth and and so that's where you know,

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I But I have tons of questions. That's what I'm saying for me coming at this because I want to understand the post -millennial

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Perspective I want to understand where that comes from just because you don't you don't find many of those weird monsters to talk to so Yeah, and so let's begin to those questions and and just to Kind of go along with what

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Paul was saying to to move forward when we say partial preterism associate that with 70

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AD and you know the first century there so the the prophecies

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That would fall under eschatology or in times Happen at that time when we

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And I would say to when we anytime we talk about eschatology it's it's very easy for no matter where what camp a person is in or to get the the ideas of The How can

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I phrase this or how should I phrase this the What we read what we're reading about in Matthew Understanding that to be the end of time period right the second coming of Christ as Opposed to the end of the age

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Yeah, you know the The end of the Old Testament era there there was that that overlapped there from a post -millennial

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Post -millennial view by the way. I'm not a hyper post -millennial is I'm not an extreme post -millennial is

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I am of I am on the I would say I'm on the The low end of post -millennial ism coming from With just what we've heard all our all our lives,

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I mean, I'm 48 years old and you know, I probably outside of the last 18 years

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I've not been able to articulate a position because all I ever heard was the pre -millennial

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View like if we all raised our hand there right at the beginning well, I don't know if Dan did or not, but Did you yeah,

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I mean so we've all come from that Yeah, I mean it's and it's just kind of the

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The pre -millennial view is just kind of the understood rule or View that's taught and really it's not even taught to a large degree in a lot of churches

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It's just kind of the understood here. It is. This is what's gonna happen.

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Don't question it And that's it Yeah, sure Well Robert, could

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I ask a couple of overarching questions before we dive into the text? Is that okay?

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because that's because that's because I I threw a couple of things at Robert of the day is I've been studying in the background for a few weeks and And I just like perspective on a couple of things

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So number one if I understand the post -millennial view They're supposed to be a progressively the world becomes more

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Christian Overtime is that correct? Is that correct? Like in other words, the kingdom of God is taking over the world and so so So, but but in my reading of Matthew 24

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If if there is a futurist and and what the way I read Matthew 24, and I don't know if it's even fair to do this

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I actually read it both preterist and futuristic I think there's there's

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I feel like the first part of Matthew 24 is definitely from a preterist point of view I feel like this transition in 21

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Becomes more futuristic in my opinion, and I think there's a shift So I think there's like a both and in the chapter

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But I don't know that that's doing justice to the to the exegeting of the whole thing that this will happen in this generation you know and I and I get the point of view in that so So but it feels like in Jesus's tone even in reading this and stuff

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There's a shift at this point because it's like there's almost a progression but in Matthew 24 even in the progression is

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It's getting worse and worse and worse If it wasn't even for the sake of it as we'll get into in a few minutes Had it not been even for the sake of the elect those days being cut short, you know

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No one would would have survived, you know, but but for the sake of the elect God intervened and what is that intervention?

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You know, so that's that's another question that that that I think to be posed later

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But so to me it feels like in Matthew 24 the trend is it's getting worse that that that even though the kingdom of God is going forth and Dispelling darkness, but it feels like skin or this.

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So the second question I have to in parallel with that is from Systematic theology from a historical context.

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We have great People of God that came like for example from London and and like a ton of the writers of our age if you will

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You know came from London and came from those things and now when we look at Europe, it's it's a primarily atheistic

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Continent, you know, I mean you go through Ireland and the revivals of Ireland, but now Ireland is an atheistic

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Country, I mean like so so rather than becoming more Christian they had great revivals

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They had great awakenings, but then there's been a great falling away, you know in those countries now and so So it's not trying to disprove it.

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I'm just asking what is the perspective? If if we are if the world is becoming more

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Christian, so I do believe with all my heart That's where I do align with post mill. I do believe with all my heart

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That the kingdom of God is going forth and the gates of hell will not prevail against it

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In other words, the gates of hell couldn't even stop it. So So there is no doubt wherever God works and wherever he chooses the kingdom of God always dispels darkness

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First John like always dispels darkness But where is there places to where God has turned things over to depravity the judgment of God in Romans 1 have already come into The world and things have been turned over and they're not going to become more

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Christian they're actually going to become more evil and more wicked as the days go along and it's going to be more like the days of Noah than it is more like the days of Christ.

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And so that's that's a that's a big question for me in the post mill versus futuristic point of view so so I'm sorry.

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I don't Dan you got you want to answer that? I'm sorry. I don't want to Time Let's let's look at the what you said about Matthew how it looks like in Matthew things are getting worse and worse from the

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Preterist perspective we view that the passage in Matthew 24 is talking about the end of the

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Old Covenant age the Old Testament so that while the

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Old Testament would be passing away while the temple and the sacrifices and all that had been fulfilled in Christ and Their usage is past is being passed on Seeing the judgment on those people of God who had

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The Jews had who had not Accepted Christ would have turned him over beaten him

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Put him on the cross The judgment upon those people is what we're seeing in Matthew 24

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So it's not really dealing with the kingdom of God going forward in In one sense, it's not that the king that things are getting worse and worse is that Christ's enemies are being put down They're being punished in Matthew 24

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Does that make Well, I don't I don't totally disagree with that But at the same time he is speaking to the

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Christians and it is the Christians in this text that are suffering So right

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Christians are told that when they see the the abomination of desolation to get up and get out of town

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Right, which 70 AD they did they all saw it going down.

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They grabbed all their stuff Well anything they couldn't they just ran So I'm saying is like I don't disagree with that I mean

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I and don't get me wrong I'm not discrediting in 70 AD. I understand the end of the age

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But it but for me too it feels like from this point on there's a transition to not just a location

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But a but it it very much appears Not just for this like one little geographical area.

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It seems like a pretty Such as not has been from the beginning of the world.

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So the only other worldwide Epidemic that would be that that drastic would be the flood

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Be worldwide in scope of tribulation just a tribulation that took place within the world

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Because what he's not necessarily getting at it's going to be that bad across the entire entirety of the planet

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Just that it's how does verse 22 fit in those days have not been cut short. No human being would be saved

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No one will be saved Unless those days have been cut short. No life would have been saved. He's talking about the the

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The the time leading up to the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem so unless the tribulation the

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Fighting against no one Titus came and he was attacking and sieging against Rome unless those days have been shortened

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Unless God didn't intervene and cause things to come to an end it would have gotten so bad that not a single person would have escaped or Come away from there.

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So I guess what I'm saying is in 70 AD the Africans felt nothing the

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Asians felt nothing right Does that make sense, you know what

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I mean? I'm not a little I mean in there in the spiritual realm, of course But I'm just speaking and I don't get me wrong.

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I'm not combative. Okay, I'm just pressing it So forgive me I'm just pressing it a little bit.

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Is that That that's what that's all I'm saying is I just thought there's a shift here and and to me

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It's it's not it doesn't satisfy the text just to say 70

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AD fulfilled all of that. I don't think 70 AD was significant enough worldwide

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To to have that kind of description Sure. Well, I don't believe though.

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The text is talking about worldwide in Matthew 24 And the reason for that is is you find it back in the first part of Matthew 24

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Jesus came out of the temple is going on his way as disciples. They came up. They pointed the buildings They had a specific place in mind.

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It was the buildings Surrounding the temple and then Jesus says don't you see these things not one stone would be left upon another

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And so they left they went to the Mount of Olives. He went to him said hey What are those things gonna happen?

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And what is the sign of your coming at the end of the age? so the question that he's answering is

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When are these things going to take place when is the stones going to be taken off of one another?

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So he's he's limiting his answer by what was asked of him in the first place if I could just piggyback on that and I'm trying to find the person

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Luke, but The context to me right before that When he's telling them those of you who are who were in Judea or when you see the

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When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel Standing in the holy place

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That you know, that's your part of your location. Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

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And I think there's a verse that I'm trying to find in Luke that says and those who are outside of Judea You know, you're talking about maybe

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Christians who were in Africa or any anybody outside of Judea when this is taking place Don't go in if you're in get out if you're out don't go in and so it kind of zeros in on that location

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And I would add to Going just a little bit further because I think in your the second part of your question

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John You would yeah, you had made reference to the fact that you know as it was in the days of Noah, is that correct?

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I didn't want to I don't want to take you out of context No, you're right. I'm just telling you it it feels like For the of course, that's that what

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I'm saying is part of the pre -millennial view is it's going to get worse and worse and worse in the coming of Christ will be as in the days of Noah and so my

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My reading of Matthew 24 through that lens Has lended me to see

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Matthew 24 as it is getting worse and worse and worse, too You know that it starts at a sort of a higher point and then there's an erosion and there's greater

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Tribulation now at this point there was there was suffering in the first part of Matthew 24 now

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There's greater tribulation and then it's and and then the end will come, you know, so so so in Everything everything that we're talking about has to be understood in the

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New Testament has to be understood a lot of Old Testament, right? So Noah is the point of reference that Christ gives, right?

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So one a question that I have that I had to ask myself concerning this was this was the the flood

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Was the flood? the end of all mankind forever The answer is no, right because the waters abated no and his family were in the ark, right?

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So the flood led to a And I'm gonna use this likely y 'all just tell me if I shouldn't or not but to a new creation, right a better Hope right that there was a better.

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Hope that God brought them to and so even though it was at the cost literally of those in Noah's Day of Every person in Humanity being destroyed with the exception of Noah and his family

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It was pointing to a better day, right that destruction bought brought a

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Somewhat you understand what I'm saying somewhat of a better day So the destruction that Christ is pointing to here again isn't the end of the world

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That's why that's where we have to get we have to make sure that we we have our you know

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Our definitions there. We're not talking. He's not talking about the end of the world in general He's talking about the end of the age and what is this end of the age bringing?

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It's bringing a better day it's bringing a better time because the old is passed away and The new has come even though from a human finite perspective

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There was that Overlap maybe of what 40 years or so if we if we're holding to the talking about the

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Prejudice view there was that overlap of You know from the time the temple was destroyed, right?

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It was basically the temple was basically useless after Christ died on the cross in a way, right?

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He cried it is finished and the veil of the temple was torn and entwined from top to bottom

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Amen Signifying the way was made into the holies by Jesus Christ so the the temple

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The temple bore no more Importance or I mean really it bore no more importance.

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I'm Maybe a hate mail after I say this but it will it bears no more

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Importance it makes no more. Holy the Christian than a church building does it does it's done

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It's it's finished because Christ paid the price so this this destruction though awful though Horrible when we look at it from a historical perspective, right?

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So Jesus said there'll be day there'll be a time of tribulation such as which has not been from the beginning of the world

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Again we take it that word by word phrase by phrase If if we look at it at a from a futurist perspective, we see tribulation as a future event

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Right as a future event we look at it from a partial preterist perspective We're looking at it literally as a as as a time of trouble a time of sorrow time of sadness

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And so when we read I mean we just go to history Can can

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I read one one paragraph from Josephus about this guys, is it? Okay, just seriously just tell me to shut up And why you look that up Please read that what why you look that up there too and one of the key factors for me is is an exegete

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That's who I mean, and I was double -checking myself while you're talking, you know, it is it does say world

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It's it's cosmos and like all the universe So all I'm saying is Jesus is is is talking on a very grand universal scale

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That's all I'm trying to say is is it and I know I Know I'm gonna think the pandemic of 2021 or Whatever 2020

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You know, you know, that's been the worst time of my life, you know Or I mean not really

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Honestly, but but but what I'm trying to say is there are brothers and sisters in Christ that are being tortured as we speak

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You know, they're they're dying as there'll be several Christians martyred in the time frame of this podcast

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So so I know it's I know there is like a limited scope of view

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Universally, you know, I'm just again and I want to hear what Josephus said as well. But again, I'm just pressing a

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Question in my mind that I don't know that 70 ad had a cosmic

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Effect it did spiritually I get at the end of the age. There's a shift There's the what's the end of the kingdom of God and and those kind of things?

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But I'm trying to say is I don't I don't disagree With the kingdom of God being ushered in I'm just not so convinced that 70 ad

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Is is that be all end all either like it had that it has to be the marker

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You know what? I mean that that has to be like We're laying the stake in the ground on this one because I think there's been other catastrophic events all throughout history that That even going on in through it through Caesar hero and all of those kind of things.

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That was horrific things of lining Miles and miles of roads with crucified Christians and and all the way through, you know

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And so so it so no matter where we go in history There's horrific events that people think

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They're reading those events through Matthew 24 war now. We're in this time finally now We're in this greatest tribulation now, and the world is now that's the future's perspective.

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Yeah, it's wicked and and so So anyway, go ahead and read my Josie just had to say

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I'd like to hear that. All right so Where was that one paragraph?

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Oh Here's here's the is so it says and now since his soldiers were already quite tired with killing men

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And by the way, if I look hateful right now, it's not because I'm actually hateful.

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It's because I'm squinting see the screen And Now since his soldiers were already quite tired with killing men and yet there appeared to be a vast multitude still remaining alive

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Caesar gave orders that they should kill none But those that were in arms and opposed them, but should take the rest alive

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But together with those whom they had orders to slay they slew the aged in the infirm and firmed in But for those that were in flourishing age and who might be useful to them

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They drove them together into the temple and shut them up within the walls of the court of the women

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Over which Caesar set one of his freedmen, right? So so I mean Josephus is given us

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Giving us an another historical reference. I know it's not Scripture It's but it's his historical reference right to the court of the women.

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That's the outer court, right? so so It says this fronto slew

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I guess that's the guy's name so fronto slew all those that he had been That had been seditious and robbers and were impeached by one another but of the young men he chose out of the tallest and most beautiful in reserve them for the triumph and as for the rest of The multitude they were above 17 year old 17 years old.

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He put them into bonds and sent them to Egyptian mines Titus also sent a great number into the provinces as present as a

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Present to them that they might be destroyed upon their theaters by the sword and by the wild beasts

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But those that were under 17 years of age were sold for slaves now during the days where in fronto was

36:55

Distinguishing these men there perished for one of food 11 ,000 some of them did not taste any food

37:02

Through the hatred their guards bore to them and for and others would not take it

37:09

Any when it was given to them the multitude was also very great that they were in want of Corn for their sustenance.

37:16

I mean, that's just one little example of talk of you know, a historical documentation and in to the to the idea of Using 8070 as a marker

37:32

I mean really again, certainly there have been horrible events, but there have never been

37:39

Horrible events outside of the destruction of Jerusalem by which we have a biblical

37:47

Point of time reference that we can look at and say because the generation was what 30 to 40 years, right?

37:54

So Jesus said There are some of you standing here who will not taste death until you see the kingdom of God coming in power

38:02

And in in relation to a judgment idea there so so but but I agree with you there

38:09

John to that, you know, it's It would be very easy for anybody just just the plain reading of the text because we are tainted all of us we're all tainted with a

38:23

Preconceived idea of what the scriptures talking about right there But when we when we take and we measure scripture according to scripture again setting some

38:35

Setting some guardrails for ourselves that that everything that we're reading in the

38:41

New Testament is in light of what is already written in the Old Testament and in every point of reference that we that we see every statement every phrase every idea that is conveyed by Matthew by Mark by Luke by John in Revelation Every idea when we see that this judgment talked about is in reference to that of the

39:05

Old Testament So when when we do that it really for me

39:10

I'll say that for me it it really makes it it makes me unable to set any other landmark

39:16

Or, you know to tether to any other event in history to to Determine an eschatological point of view there.

39:28

So I mean that's for me Does that make sense? Yeah. No. No. Yeah, I agree.

39:33

I agree. Totally. Yeah, I understand where you're coming from Yeah, would y 'all mind if I piggyback on that and and give it?

39:41

My defense on what I had looked up and before I do that I was just looking at the verse again verse 21 and If the

39:49

Greek word order is different than than what I'm reading in the my English translations. Let me know but if we're

39:58

This is the perspective that I'm coming from and I don't I don't know if we're in in full agreement but if the context is

40:08

Judea Jerusalem the temple if the that's the geographical context

40:14

The verse is Has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now so This is just the way

40:25

I'm reading it and I could be wrong when it uses No, no, no never shall be right, right.

40:33

So it is that's what I'm trying to say. There's a tension here of Preterist and futuristic

40:39

Jesus is making This statement that this great tribulation now, I don't mean to interrupt you both.

40:45

Sorry, but this it will this event There will be nothing worse than this event in all of history

40:53

This won't even there's nothing in the past it's ever been as bad as this is going to be and there's nothing in the future that will ever be as Catastrophic as this great tribulation

41:07

From what I'm reading, I think that's the key point there. He he's using the word world.

41:13

I know we're talking about Has ever happened nor ever shall happen um

41:20

I think he's using the word world not as a geographical But as a part of the the time frame um, so he

41:31

I know he uses the word cosmos, but I'm not seeing him using it as Um, you know a geographic look look into all the world for all this he's using as as a time stamp um since the beginning of the world

41:48

And that's one part of the time stamp or ever shall be Or yeah, or ever shall

41:55

So so the context is judea jerusalem. So nothing from the beginning of the world until then or after Shall come this catastrophic type of thing in judea in jerusalem

42:12

So so things may have been bad other places, but they've never been this bad or ever shall be this bad again in judea

42:20

Does that make sense? Yeah, but I don't I don't know that that fits So so straight to the definition from the greek is

42:28

I mean and again not to And and I don't want to come across as some greek Hero, okay guys,

42:34

I mean, that's what we got to go back to here. You're absolutely right but yeah, all i'm saying is you know, when you when you go to those strictest definitions

42:46

There's like three primary so there's there's the scope of the universe which includes stars and Whatever that we'll never see, you know

42:57

Until god revisited if he ever does in the expanse and I love louis giglio's

43:03

Descriptions of the heavens and it's just big enough to start to declare god's glory, you know millions of light years away and all that So so it's the universe

43:13

Or it's the scope of the of the globe of the world Or it's the inhabitants of all the world.

43:19

That's that's like the three primary uses in all the scripture, you know of of that that cosmos word and um, so it's the circle of the earth and the inhabitants of the world and so it's it's typically used um in in a in a huge mass,

43:40

I mean, it's typically a very cosmos is typically used as a General term.

43:45

I mean, it's not it's typically not a detailed geographic term and and so that's that that's that's again where Or you challenge it now there is like a few exceptions um talking about the ungodly multitude or the alienated from god those who are alienated

44:05

I mean there is like there is Places where there is exceptions to where it's talking about a specific people group within the cosmos, you know, and but that's

44:16

That's not the normal grammatical Use of it. So anyways Well it in in the greek here is it's not being used as a a noun

44:26

Proper it's in it's in the genitive which is an adjective or it deals with possession

44:33

Uh, so what what it's saying is it's not the word cosmos is or actually cosmo here would be modifying

44:40

What comes before it? which would be A beginning of the world.

44:46

He's talking about time Of the world so he's not talking about the expanse of heaven he's saying what took place in time there won't be in in the

44:56

Global from creation You know from the beginning of time from jesus He's talking about world history in world history

45:04

There will not be a judgment visited upon a people that had been that bad before Nor will come that hard Again, never again, right, right

45:15

Yeah So, so again, so again, that's all i'm trying to say is then There's there's great incredible judgments of god upon the jewish people and upon gentile people

45:33

All throughout the whole testament. I mean they were killing entire cities They were saying don't leave anybody alive kill every man woman and child and every livestock leave nothing alive and take nothing

45:42

Leave it desolate and abandoned So so all i'm saying is there's there's horrific judgments all throughout the old testament, even if we don't include the the the the

45:55

Complete surface of the flood, you know, even since the flood There was probably in my mind worse

46:02

In humanitarian points of view because the flood would have been fairly quick, you know everybody dies in a matter of time, but there's not the suffering and there's not the

46:10

Those kind of things and so that's what i'm trying to say guys is yes to me to me,

46:15

I just I just want to press on it just a little bit not to Not to make it combative at all because I value the point of view of 70 a .d

46:24

It was definitely a huge event in history. I am not discrediting the importance of it in eschatology

46:30

Because no matter what position you have in eschatology, you cannot deny that was a significant point and that's why

46:38

I don't mind saying yeah, i'm partial prejudice. There's there's definitely I think part of the book of revelation has been fulfilled, you know

46:45

So so if I could ask my second question and then and then then i'll be quiet for a while you guys can unpack

46:52

Uh, if that's okay because my second question kind of ties in Kind of ties in with that and I told robert this on the phone the other day too if if post -millenniumism

47:02

Is is indeed true And try to really put myself like in that place like if I really

47:10

Holistically believe this in my lifetime right now Then it actually leads me to great despair

47:17

Rather than than an eschatology of hope Because because I see the world

47:23

Becoming less christian even though there are pockets of movement and i'm i'm thankful in our culture where robert and I are at I think we're beginning to see a gospel movement.

47:32

I mean, I think we really are we're catching vision of that. We're having churches unite We're we're reaching into our city

47:39

There's there's beautiful things happening. So So i'm not I'm, not belittling that you know what i'm saying?

47:46

so I think there's pockets of that happening across the world that we celebrate and we lift our hands and we worship christ and But when i'm seeing the culture as a whole

47:56

I see it becoming more godless. I see it promoting It's calling what is evil good and what is good evil and I see

48:04

You know that and it's not just american culture, by the way, it's it's actually for once in my lifetime

48:11

It's actually a worldwide culture of celebrating what is evil and calling what is good, you know, and so so again, if if if that's the case of of that then it leads me to To ask where and robert did help with this since we're not full preterists um

48:33

There is a second coming there is a judgment. There is a vindication But if it takes away

48:40

If if if post -millenniumism is true and it does take away a a literal seven -year tribulation that there's not a literal

48:48

Seven -year tribulation and it annihilates that Then there's a part of me that's that's really frustrated

48:54

Because then there is a sense of no vindication in the earth until just one

49:01

Judgment that that that there's not and there's not those crying out from the throne room of god in the book of revelation

49:08

How much longer are you going to allow this as the martyrs were crying out from under the throne of god? and that kind of stuff so for me, it it actually leads me to to sort of more of a despair

49:19

Because then I don't have nothing else to look forward to Or even to give warning about Because there's not

49:26

There's there's there's not a season of judgment. There's not a season of purification. There's not a season of of that and it's just there's just an end so I'm i'm hearing you it would would you are you guys?

49:41

okay, if I So i'll be quiet for a while. So piggyback on that big Big questions

49:48

And it's still in line with these texts, you know, so i'll i'll i'll try to answer that one that second question, particularly

49:56

And and i'll answer it from the text Okay, because we want to we want to write scripture interpret scripture.

50:03

That's the rule of biblical interpretation There's you know, there's no understanding of the scripture outside of the scripture

50:09

So that one verse there verse 21 for then there will be great Tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now

50:19

And then what does it say there? nor ever shall be nor ever shall be

50:27

Do you see the the hope there? Sure that that that that there is never going to be

50:36

A tribulation like this again That's the future hope that's that's that's the that's the hopeful

50:44

The hopeful part of the eschatology here that christ himself said That there's never going to be anything like what you're fixing to pay getting.

50:53

Oh, that was country right there fixing the face But y 'all understand Yeah, I mean there's there's there's you're never gonna face any kind of tribulation like what you're fixing to face after this

51:07

So we have the the hope of the the of creation being made new similar very much like with with mo with noah, right the the hope even though it's in the face of Horrible destruction and judgment yet.

51:25

There is hope and so After this there is hope and and and and to the uh to the idea of of There's no way that anybody in their right mind can look around in our day and in our time in the last five ten years

51:43

You can tell we're getting old when we start talking like old people, right? I never thought i'd see this in my day but There's no doubt that certainly things have seemingly forgot

51:58

Progressively gotten worse and worse But if we're objective and we stand back and we read the scriptures

52:05

We find that there is nothing new under the sun That it that things have have continued since creation and will until the lord returns

52:16

Exactly the same the difference for us Is that we've got the interwebs?

52:22

We've got youtube's we've got all these we've got access to everything the the you know

52:27

Every new story everything that comes out good or bad. It's right in our head. It's right in our face

52:33

So we're made aware of it visually and audibly we can oh, sorry

52:39

We're we're made aware of it visually and audibly but in reality again from an

52:46

From a objective christian standpoint just from the scripture alone Things haven't gotten any worse

52:54

They they haven't gotten uh, they have gotten progressively better Because we go through periods of time where revival happens you mentioned uh over in ireland

53:05

Were you talking about the isle of scott of uh? Oh goodness Wales, yes.

53:11

Yeah. I mean we we have we have the uh, you know the dark ages, uh

53:16

Led to the the reformation post tenebrous lux, you know After darkness light we had we had a great revival in those years and then we go through another slump history is cyclical but it's like a uh, like a graph it it doesn't it it

53:35

The lord brings us up because where do we start we started at the bottom in creation, right?

53:41

We go up adam and eve sinned There's a plane god provides a sacrifice

53:47

Provides the promise calls abraham to the promise. There's another in increase

53:53

There's another increase, right? Sin enters again the sack the cycle continues

53:59

But it never ultimately bottom it never falls back out. It's a consistent steady increase now from an infinite perspective

54:11

Um, it's easy to see but from a finite perspective we don't see that we see things only you know

54:17

As our mind can understand them because we are finite we are little But if you take an objective look at history you'll see that there is that there's that planning and increase planning and increase planning and increase and I hope with everything that was within me that we as men

54:38

Get to be a part of history where we see Revivals like the isle of wales where we see revivals like the reformation

54:47

Where we see where we see men and women literally just cast down under the weight of their sin and they fall

54:56

At the feet of christ and and they worship him for who he is in light of who they are but Just because we don't see that now it doesn't mean things are hopeless because christ is still on the throne

55:12

He still makes intercession for his his people. He still He still rules and he still reigns over all things.

55:20

So we we We certainly we certainly certainly certainly

55:26

I I mean, I just want to encourage you all in this. I mean the work that you all are doing this

55:32

Doing this pastor's panel is an encouragement to the body of christ.

55:37

It's an encouragement to me I mean, I you know your first few things that y 'all did

55:43

I mean, I I was eating that up I was in bed, but I was eating it up But but but don't don't lose heart.

55:52

I mean again going back to the scripture What did paul tell the galatians right don't grow weary and well doing

55:58

For in due season you will reap if you faint not the entirety of the epistles of the letters that paul writes to the churches there is a

56:08

There is a positive hope in those and the hope is this that christ sits on the throne

56:16

That christ is lord and that nobody no man No movement no power on earth is able to change what he has done

56:26

And what he has done can't be undone That's that's positive.

56:31

That's what encourages me That's what when I get up in the morning and I say I do not want to deal with stupid people today

56:39

And i'm reminded you're one of them stupid people Get up quit whining right like like elijah in the cave, right?

56:48

I'm the only one left No, the lord said I have reserved unto me And so this is why this is why we can have such a positive outlook concerning the world even in the state it's in because We are living and breathing and god's still letting this thing spin around.

57:09

It means he ain't done yet So that's all right guys, i'm, sorry, i'm, sorry, no, no, no

57:16

So I won't say much to it robert and I want you to go all i'm trying to say is though In my ears

57:23

That sounds more futurist Than it does preterist post -millennial Because that's what i'm trying to say is there's a future hope there is a future

57:33

There's a future promises yet to be fulfilled Even to the body of christ there's there's promises of perseverance.

57:40

There's promises of overcoming. There's usually more than conquerors so so that's what i'm trying to say too is

57:46

I I don't know. Maybe there's not a difference in the two views In what you're saying

57:53

And maybe we've made a difference and when there's actually not a difference That one is no more hopeful than the other

58:00

In my from and it could be from my perspective. Does that make sense? I mean because I don't get me wrong

58:05

I have plenty of preachers that are absolutely hopeless and always woe is me. Okay, I mean but you know from from from that I I guess that's all i'm trying to say is it

58:23

It's definitional john, I I think it I think it's definitional, you know to say that uh,

58:30

The futurist and the partial preterist, you know, it's it's it's just In our minds in our own understanding having the ability to delineate

58:40

What we mean when we're when we're saying that Certainly the futurist the futurist position objectively

58:48

Is that you know, these things haven't happened yet right and the partial preterist view is that These things have been done

58:58

And we can live and move and be and have our being in confidence

59:04

That god is working all things according to the counsel of his will And that he is

59:11

As he said making all things new It's a progressive thing but And certainly we want it when we want it, but but yeah,

59:22

I would agree with you there This is a very selfish statement. Okay, but i'm mad that not more has been done in 2 000 years

59:28

You know i'm saying After 2 000 years i'm expecting things to be looking a little bit different and i'm not i'm not expecting there to be

59:36

You know, not only because of the internet but just because now people are proud of their sin and prideful of their sin and arrogant in their sin um

59:49

You know because I came from a culture That people had sin But they weren't like rubbing in your face and expecting you to To be on their team, you know, and it's actually loving to tell people that this is sinful now.

01:00:04

It's hate But to tell someone That their life is sinful no matter what it is, whether it's drugs or sexual lifestyle or whatever it is

01:00:12

Of addictions or whatever they're entrenched in It's it now it's hate speech.

01:00:18

I can't say, you know, and so all i'm saying is don't get me wrong, that's kind of a A mean statement when

01:00:25

I said well, I don't mean it that way But like i'm like god if this is really what you're doing then get on with it.

01:00:30

I go, you know I mean No, and that's that's a natural human response go ahead dan,

01:00:38

I mean, uh when when the church started well, I don't know about when the church started but at the time of christ when right before uh, the preaching at the time of uh, pentecost

01:00:49

About 120 people sitting in in the room Um tongues of fire fell down.

01:00:56

They preached 3 000 people were saved that day more people were saved in the time afterwards um, and it

01:01:02

Expanded from there to the point where now Today on on the earth. We have more christians on the planet today than there were people on the earth

01:01:12

Back in the time of christ. Sure So I don't know Well, what i'm trying to say is in mine and robert city 66 percent of our city is lost

01:01:24

And becoming more lost every day It's not it's so that's that's again don't get me wrong i'm looking at at at the

01:01:32

We're we're fighting that and lord willing by the power of god and by his grace And by the move of the spirit, we're going to shift that But if if the church does nothing

01:01:43

And that and that goes back to responsibility if god doesn't breathe through his church and the church proclaim the gospel without a supernatural intervention of the lord there's there's

01:01:56

Our city becomes more lost and actually with our population increase Now because it's four and a half percent a year in our city in our region

01:02:04

We're seeing less converts, of course with the pandemic. So now we're probably more 72 to 75 lost

01:02:12

People in our city, so it's going the opposite way And so so that's my question is why and I get

01:02:19

I get it. There's the ebbs and flows and i'm We're praying for that breakthrough man, we're praying for that graph to stop

01:02:28

Declining and there be awakening there be shift. Um But I think in these pockets like in our city,

01:02:35

I don't think it's just our city that's seeing those statistics. I think that is Uh in many ways a a cultural

01:02:43

Statistic it's a cosmos statistic and and so that's that's again a question that That I don't doubt anything

01:02:51

I believe everything claude just said I believe everything that christ is on the throne We live and know and are content in every situation in him

01:03:00

Right now I find myself content in every situation not because I like what's going on around me But my identity is not in my circumstances.

01:03:08

It's in christ you know, and so I get it but As far as an eschatological view

01:03:15

Okay That's that's what i'm saying and I know we're only looking at is a blip in history, but so did so did the disciples and so did so did all of History people see it in a in a blip in time

01:03:27

And so because even the disciples expected jesus to be something else other than he was You know, they expected him to take over the roman kingdom, you know peter

01:03:36

That's why he wanted to pick up the sword and you know, jesus. When are you going to bring your kingdom? you know, and of course they're looking for a tangible

01:03:45

Kingdom not a not a spiritual kingdom. And so So that's so that's all guys, you know, that's that's what i'm just trying to say is the more

01:03:52

I press into this um, it leads me to To Because I guess what i'm saying and maybe i'm wrong.

01:04:02

That's why i'm asking the question. I'm, sorry I said I wasn't gonna talk a lot more If the post -millennial view is true

01:04:09

Then basically i'm just coasting until jesus comes is how it leads me to feel and Because there's not more promises to be fulfilled the promises and the revelations

01:04:21

And those things have already been fulfilled. So therefore There's not going to be the destruction of babylon.

01:04:27

There's not going to be the tearing down of the world kingdom There's not going to be the overturning. There's not going to be the judgments of that.

01:04:32

So therefore Therefore i'm just going to do what I can do In my own little pocket of the world and then i'm just gonna die and then what you know

01:04:43

Those things that you mentioned They are gonna happen, but they're gonna be happening through the gospel

01:04:52

Right So, but not if they're not in a full not in a partial prayerist point of view, right

01:04:59

Yeah, yeah So it we're looking for I'm wanting to get down to the nitty -gritty of that guys

01:05:06

That's what that's what the hope is all about because we're looking for for jesus to progressively

01:05:12

You know take over the world. So all those kingdoms are going to fall And and it's going to it's going to fall through the gospel

01:05:20

That that's our that's our weapon. That's our strategy And so that's the hope the hope is in the gospel and the gospel is going to take over the world um and Claude everything that you said was was beautiful, but i'm going to tell you

01:05:34

I almost jumped out of my seat when you said, um when you when you first started off and you said nor ever shall you you in the verse, um 21

01:05:47

I almost jumped out of my seat because that that is so beautiful Uh, what

01:05:52

I thought about what come to my mind was this that Adam couldn't do it Abraham couldn't do it.

01:05:58

Moses couldn't do it. Noah couldn't do it. David couldn't do it. Solomon couldn't do it Israel couldn't do it.

01:06:05

None of the gentiles could do it We can't do it. So there was an end of an age and when jesus age came

01:06:11

There's not gonna there's not gonna be a need for a great tribulation again and there's not going to be a need for an end of Another age because the end of the the jesus age

01:06:22

Is going to go on forever. It's perfect There's not going to be another need for an end of an age

01:06:28

He's he's got it. That's right. He's done it. Oh about my seat on that And john too again because we remember that all any of our um

01:06:41

Feelings or ideas that we're having or notions or whatever you want to call them That you're not alone in that.

01:06:47

I mean Think about jonah

01:06:52

Right, the lord told him go and preach to nineveh this

01:06:58

It was the wickedest place around right? He said go and preach to nineveh

01:07:04

Well, he went and preached and what did the lord do during him? He had compassion on them

01:07:11

They repented right they repented and and jonah got mad because God didn't bring judgment like he said he was going to but he brought mercy

01:07:24

And they repented of their sins. Therefore they were spared now 150 years later after the revival there

01:07:31

Back to the same old thing But at that moment in time God showed mercy to them and so we again

01:07:42

Just I just want to encourage you don't lose heart man, don't lose heart Because in the in and here's the thing to to to those questions that you have

01:07:54

Right. What what is the answer? What is the answer to those things? It's because i'm

01:08:00

Overly simplistic, but this is my answer to that question. How do we fix that?

01:08:05

How do we remedy that? you gave the statistics of the The unconverted right the loss the conditions of men and women.

01:08:13

How is that remedied? There's only one way that is remedied and that is through the gospel of jesus christ so what is our task while we're here to occupy until we die or until he comes

01:08:28

And while we're occupying we have but one One thing to do and that is to proclaim that jesus christ died for our sins

01:08:39

That he was buried and that he arose again on the third day That is it the rest is up to the lord

01:08:46

Don't don't take more upon yourself Then then to say i'm not making an impact i'm not making a difference or or this city's going to hell in a handbasket

01:08:56

No, it's not Just and i'm very hopeful Keep preaching the gospel brother.

01:09:03

Amen. Amen. Then don't don't take my point of view as negative I don't but I just want to encourage

01:09:09

Well, it's not a problem it but it's it is a problem I am the eternal optimist and I love it

01:09:17

I mean they told me that we couldn't have a successful church plant in this city I mean praise the lord

01:09:22

I had this convention and all the ones said we hadn't had a successful church plant in this city in 100 years

01:09:27

This is a wicked place and and and now praise god. We're having a church planting movement, you know, because Me and a few other pastors just said, you know, okay

01:09:38

I you don't it's kind of like david and glide, you know, well, give me a rock by golly.

01:09:43

We'll go we're gonna get And that's just that's the spirit that I have and I have a fighter mentality um

01:09:52

But i'm not going to say it's not purging at times and in in claude what you said is so crucial uh, because I think

01:09:58

A lot of our local churches have become so consumed with building their own little kingdom They're they're not about they're not about what you just talked about so therefore

01:10:08

It that to me. That's the lonely place. That's the lonely place of pleading with christians just to be christians

01:10:17

And and instead they're saying no we just we're going to do our own little family church and and that is exhausting it is

01:10:25

Exasperating and um, and so that too I think is part of the judgment That's on some cities because ichabod has been put on the door of and judgment has been placed on many of those houses of god and he's withdrawn their lamp stand and and so now we revival for us in many places in america is not going to be a an immediate

01:10:47

Thousands of people getting saved. It's just going to be actually the church Being the church that would be revival in of itself, you know in many ways

01:10:55

So because I feel like revival is for the church not the lost, you know Definition definitional what is revival?

01:11:02

It's returned to the gospel It's been a return to the gospel from the very beginning. That is what revival is.

01:11:08

It's simply That and I think that's great news all throughout our country I see

01:11:14

I see better preaching a resurgence of the gospel centeredness and and and Seriousness about the gospel among among many many many churches and pastors and I praise god for that So so don't take me as hopeless in that.

01:11:28

I'm just saying this point of view if I run it to the end of of my perspective it it left me very

01:11:37

Exasperated because then then I feel like and and again, it's it's i'm very immature in the study of this, but if yeah, if these promises are preterists

01:11:51

And then and have already been fulfilled Then then I feel like all i'm doing is existing

01:11:58

I'm, just existing in the midst of the promise But I don't have a future promise to proclaim

01:12:04

And that's frustrating to me, you know, it feels like there's there because it's already been done so now what's being done is

01:12:14

Is just piggybacking on what's already been done. And so therefore Where is the authority?

01:12:19

Where is the rising up? Where is the dominion in the world now? Where is the light dispelling the darkness? and so that's

01:12:27

That's where we get frozen chosen. We get those people who get this elitist mindset, you know, and that they're saved and they're elect and so therefore

01:12:35

We're hanging out. So my election Is not for me to just hang out because i'm secure and i'm elect to go elect some more, you know

01:12:43

I'm I have an election with a purpose and a calling and a zeal i've been chosen and given an authority

01:12:49

Over dominion over darkness and now now we have a purpose in that so so again, it is definitions and semantics, but um, and it could have been the people that I was reading and studying maybe had really bad perspective

01:13:05

Again, it just just just keep christ in the forefront really really and truly christ hasn't given us authority over the darkness

01:13:14

He has authority over the darkness. We hold him up He we hold him up Of the world you right we hold him up.

01:13:23

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, of course, of course it's But he but he has

01:13:31

Set us ablaze, you know, you are the light of the world a city That is set on the hillside.

01:13:37

They can't move. So he's putting us on display as ambassadors for him. Yeah You use that term there that was awesome because um,

01:13:45

I think it was just a night or two ago I can't remember if I think it was doug wilson But he talked about the fact that everybody thinks christians are incendiary and starting fires everywhere.

01:13:55

He said we're not It's the world that's changed right christians haven't changed

01:14:01

Uh in on our way home, I just got home from bible study not right before I got on with you all And I told my friend greg.

01:14:08

I said The I said here here's my simple. Um, exegesis of the the condition of things

01:14:17

As christians we are men on fire The problem is that for years and years the world's wood has just been wet

01:14:27

And it's dried up to the point now where everything that a christian touches sets ablaze

01:14:34

So I hope so. I hope our city burns down in the name of jesus

01:14:41

Spiritually speaking I know what you're saying I I get you and maybe regularly in some places and i'll just get it's all right

01:14:48

Well guys, I hate to uh, I hate to jump off right now But uh, i'm gonna have to i'm gonna have to go get in bed.

01:14:55

Um, I gotta get up early. So Thank you for entertaining my my questions and Yeah, and I appreciate

01:15:02

I appreciate again I just appreciate being here with you because again as as men of god We need to we need we need men that we can bounce

01:15:11

Our our thoughts and ideas off of and not have to worry are they going to unfriend me?

01:15:18

I mean And we can just keep pressing through them keep talking through them until you get it figured out because eschatology

01:15:28

It's it's a lifelong learning The only way the

01:15:34

The only the only way that a person I don't think I don't think any of us will ever be fully settled on the matters of eschatology

01:15:44

Until we get home And then guess what then it won't matter but it's good for us to know this day and time

01:15:50

Uh, I mean this I mean this in truth guys robert john dan.

01:15:55

I love y 'all in the lord Thank you for letting me be on tonight. Uh, I look forward to next week

01:16:02

Please come back Thank you so much bye -bye

01:16:09

Dan did you want to jump in? I wanted to give a my defense that i've brought to the table of that verse um, but I wanted to give you some time to To say something if you wanted to jump in i'm going ahead

01:16:25

Okay, you can mute my mic robert you can mute my mic Thank you guys for being patient with me

01:16:33

No, this is fun. This is good. Uh, I really appreciate it. Um, no, I was trying to bring some some defense from the partial preterist perspective uh for that verse

01:16:43

I just wanted to go over a few things that I found um there's um

01:16:49

These are just quotes from different um resources, um from from church history and some of them are are current

01:16:59

Um theologians, but but here and i'm not going to read all of them There's just just portions of some of them, but but this one from homily lxx vi um he he makes this comment in In this section concerning verse 21.

01:17:16

He says and let not any man suppose This to have been spoken hyperbolically

01:17:22

Hyperbolically And that sent me back because I had been I i've been saying this verse was used

01:17:30

Hyperbolically, I read that I was like, whoa um But I was listening to gary demar who who preaches on post meal a lot

01:17:39

And he uses this verse. He says it's hyperbolic. So I think I think i'm going to stay in the middle and and touch on both sides that it's um that it's hyperbolic and from his perspective as well and and from Gary demar's perspective who says, you know, look at this as as hyperbolic language judgmental language that we get from the old testament um

01:18:04

Just a verse that he would use Uh when I when i'm been learning from him ezekiel chapter 5 verse 9.

01:18:11

So if you remember matthew 24 21 Such as not ever been since the world began or ever shall be um, and we're thinking

01:18:22

Hyperbolic judgment language. Do we see that in old testament ezekiel chapter 5 verse 9?

01:18:28

And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what

01:18:34

I have not done And like of which I will never do again So we see similar language

01:18:42

Um used in old testament and then just another example of of that type of language

01:18:48

Um Used in this literature you have first kings 3 12

01:18:55

Um speaking in description of solomon there has been no one Like or as great as solomon and it also says

01:19:04

None shall arise after you that will be like you But then you look at at matthew 12 42 behold a

01:19:13

One greater than solomon has come And so it it's not out of the ordinary for scripture to use hyperbolic language um for for judgment language

01:19:29

And then If you want to stick with homily where he says don't take it as hyperbolic um, these are just a few there's so many here, but I wanted to stop at charles spurgeon

01:19:43

He says for there shall be great tribulation he quotes the verse then he says Read the record written by josephus of the destruction of jerusalem and see how truly our lord's words were fulfilled

01:19:54

The jews impiously said concerning the death of christ his blood beyond us and our children Never did any other people invoke such an awful curse upon themselves and upon no other nation

01:20:05

Did so much such a judgment ever fall? We read of jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city

01:20:21

Of so many of them being sold for slaves that they become a drug in the market and all but valueless

01:20:30

And of the fearful carnage when the romans at length entered the the doomed capital and the blood curling story

01:20:37

Exactly bears out the savior's statement uttered nearly 40 years before the terrible events occurred and then um

01:20:47

Gary demar says any tribulation the jews experienced In any other countries is not in view here

01:20:54

The death of six million jews at the hands of the nazis did not take place in the land of israel The great tribulation is a description

01:21:01

Of what happened to jews living in israel in the first century over 1 million jews died at the hands of the romans

01:21:07

Nothing will ever compare to it because of israel's special covenantal status her sin was great

01:21:13

Therefore her judgment was great The tribulation period cannot be global because all one all one has to do is to escape

01:21:21

Or to escape is to flee the mountains Notice that jesus says let those who are in judea flee to the mountains

01:21:28

Judea is not the world. It's not even the nation of israel. And then just one more da carson he says

01:21:41

Da carson says there there have been greater number of deaths six million in the nazi death camps mostly jews

01:21:49

And an estimated 20 million under stalin, but never so high percentage of great cities population

01:21:54

So thoroughly and painfully exterminated and enslaved as during the fall of jerusalem

01:22:00

And and you mentioned too the about nero about them being you know, we hear the stories of them, you know being dipped in um

01:22:10

Tar whatever to to cause them to to burn they use them as as lamp stands the christians.

01:22:16

Um and and josephus if i'm not mistaken, he tells of You know, basically blood running in the streets.

01:22:24

Um A woman one of the soldiers coming up to a woman and she has she was so hungry

01:22:30

She cooked her child and was eating her child and offered some to a soldier um josephus really describes a horrific time that jerusalem went through um and so I think

01:22:47

I think when it's emphasized or That We we've not ever seen it you'll never see it or never shall be um

01:22:59

But then we think about All the horrible things that we've read in our history books. We've seen in our history books um when you know, we see how bad nazi germany was and and many other stalin all the other things but Josephus didn't talk and and so many of these commentators

01:23:17

You know that that look back at josephus josephus. I think was convinced that Christ words were fulfilled based on What he his understanding of what happened in jerusalem?

01:23:33

um Is is that correct dan that josephus based on? What happened in jerusalem was convinced jesus words were fulfilled and he

01:23:42

Gave a deep description of all the turmoil that went went on I'm, i'm not sure.

01:23:48

Okay I'd like to say yes, it sounds good, but I just I couldn't say that without any integrity.

01:23:55

Okay That's as i've looked at it as as I read these um historians and these theologians

01:24:03

And they quote josephus um, they a lot of these seem to go back to him to point to Well, he definitely gives the most most accurate historical perspective, you know, i'm not sure about His convincing and you're probably probably is is what i'm saying.

01:24:25

I mean he he probably is Convinced of that but either way He gives the most accurate

01:24:33

Historical Documentation of the events even to even to like what claude read to us earlier of the ages of Of who was enslaved and who was sold and who was killed and all those kind of things, you know, so so yeah

01:24:49

I'm glad that you brought up noah because that um That makes me want to go past verse 34 now so that we can talk about all those verses and uh

01:24:58

So So one other question in this on this verse in particular too

01:25:04

So from a from a post -millennial point of view, um So the cross reference of revelation to verse 21

01:25:12

Would would be Going to the seventh bowl Which is at the end of the seals the trumpets and the bowls so so basically

01:25:25

The Because it uses the same Language in verse 18 and there were flat in revelation 16 18 and there were flashes of lightning rumbling pearls of thunder

01:25:36

And great earthquake and then it goes on such as there has never been since man was on the earth

01:25:41

So great was the earthquake. So it's like that same Greek line of thought, you know in that there's there's never been anything as bad as this so so If in preterism then the

01:25:58

The seal like going through the book of revelation then you've got the seals the trumpets and the bowls So is this is this the fulfillment of?

01:26:07

The great tribulation described as in As in revelation where you've got the three phases so is this the accumulation of From a post -millennial point of view is this the accumulation of that final event?

01:26:24

of revelation Is 70 ad the fulfillment of all of that? Dan I want to see if you can tackle that i've not done the parallel.

01:26:35

It's my understanding that revelation um is an exposition of Matthew 24

01:26:42

But i've not done the parallel Yeah, i'm i'm trying to make sure I understand the question before I answer.

01:26:48

Can you ask it again? Yes, in other words, so you've got you've got Seals trumpets and bowls and through revelation, you know the three phases

01:26:58

Speaking to the church and then you break all that down and it gets all the way to revelation 16 and in Matthew 24 21, you've got this

01:27:06

Reference to this great tribulation the world has never seen or ever will again, you know this this event and From post -millennial point of view that's 70 ad so so then you go over to revelation 16 and um

01:27:23

Really particularly in verse starting in verse 17. The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air And a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne saying it is done

01:27:32

And there were flashes of lightning rumblings pearls and thunders and great earthquakes such as there has never been since man was on the earth

01:27:39

So great was the earthquake the great city was split into three parts and the cities the nations fell god

01:27:44

Remember babylon the great to make or drain the cup of wine of the fury of his wrath

01:27:49

And every island fled away No mountains were to be found and great hailstones of about 100 pounds each fell from heaven on people

01:27:56

And they cursed god for the plague of the hell because the plague was so severe and then it goes on to talk about the great prostitute and the beast and all those in 17, so So in other words the seventh bowl though is like the final

01:28:10

Like it is done And here's the final Here's the final wham of god's judgment that's been poured out all throughout

01:28:20

The the seals the bowls and the trumpets which is progressively worse And so the bowls being the most severe of the wrath of god.

01:28:27

So here is the final pouring out of the wrath of god So is that 70 a .d is the final pouring out?

01:28:33

Of the wrath of god is that in y 'all's interpretation? So there's no more wrath of god to be poured out on the earth

01:28:39

What other words is that the final? You know Yes, and no Um, it is in the sense that we believe that's what's being described.

01:28:48

It's not in the sense that Um, at least myself. I don't think that revelation goes chronologically

01:28:55

I think it goes it covers the same material Uh several times on the way through and you see it because when it comes to the end of the different sections um

01:29:07

It will it will give a description That sounds a lot like Uh what you just read sure each thunders lightning

01:29:20

Each segment has like Like an up the ante at the end of each segment, you know what i'm saying?

01:29:27

So you've got the seals and you get and each one gets has this major event that Stairsteps into the next phase of whatever, you know, so they do there's a lot of parallels there's a lot of cross references and then at one point, you know, there's a

01:29:42

A percentage of the world the next thing is a third of the world You know a percentage of the fishes and now there's even more of the fishes in there you know what

01:29:48

I mean, so it's like a progression of of death and stench and disease and Yeah, the way that I would see that is is um

01:29:58

Kind of like a diamond you hold it up and you can see it from different perspectives and sometimes it shines sometimes It doesn't it sparkles as you turn it each one of these different sections that ends

01:30:09

That ends with that, you know peel the thunder hailstones You know that whole language would be a different view or aspect or or perspective on the same period of time

01:30:24

So I don't view the whole book as being chronological So I would say that that would be describing a culmination in 70 a .d

01:30:34

But I don't think that the book of revelation is chronological so that way you wouldn't like say in chapter 17

01:30:41

I don't think you're looking for stuff that would happen after that. I think it starts again um same subject matter as before But now when you look at it, you're looking at it from a different perspective

01:30:56

Okay and the reason I think it's important to to ask that is Is when you when you start cross -referencing the end of Matthew 24

01:31:07

Going back to the especially the bowls Okay, not necessarily the skills and the trumpets

01:31:13

But especially the bowls, there's just a lot of the same language used Like going back to you know, revelation 14 we'll get into later you know collecting the elect going the angels released and going to the corners of the earth and collecting the

01:31:28

Elect and then the angel come out from the temple and with a sharp sickle in revelation 14 and another came out the altar and had authority over fire and and then he put your sickle together and Go gather its grapes that are ripe.

01:31:41

So it's talking about a harvest. There's a bringing in there's a harvest a gathering So he sung a sickle across the earth and gathered the harvest of the earth and threw it into the great wine press you know, so there's a harvesting of judgment, and then there's a harvesting of The elect, you know,

01:31:59

I mean, so it's like there's pictures of The harvesting in Matthew 24 saying the same thing.

01:32:04

So all i'm saying is I'm trying to understand Obviously from a futurist point of view

01:32:11

You know, these are judgments that come up on the earth in that seven -year tribulation and this is the last third of the seven -year tribulation but you know all i'm asking is

01:32:25

I'm still having a hard time having perspective of Of dealing with a greater picture in the entire world versus Just jerusalem and then the second question i'd have robert with with not not to rebut your defense because I thought it was excellent

01:32:43

I mean, it's very very good. And you know, i'm thankful you read those guys because it does make sense from that perspective um but in this

01:32:53

Is it not the christians in matthew 24 that are suffering? There's really not a reference to The jews suffering in this right

01:33:03

Well, this is a this is a judgment on the the jews uh, because they they said let um

01:33:10

You know, they're going to say let his blood be on us and our and on our children. Um, and this is the

01:33:18

You know the judgment that's coming on because one thing is that it doesn't say that in this

01:33:24

Text Now I get it. I get it. Don't get me wrong. I definitely i'm not saying I disagree with the interpretation that Let their blood be on our heads.

01:33:34

I'm not i'm not saying I'd agree with that. I'm not disagreeing even to that from the beginning he's they're looking at buildings and Looking at structures and they say not one stone is going to be left on the other but as far as the ones that are like suffering and dying and being sold and imprisoned and tortured and persecuted

01:33:53

It's the christians that go through that not the jews even though the temple was destroyed and even in josephus's account it was

01:34:01

Christians and jews going through that only those who didn't heed his warning Yes, this this message was to christians and part of that message was

01:34:12

If when you when you see this flee, so it was a message of judgment coming

01:34:19

But you who i'm giving this message to christian When you see this coming flee

01:34:25

So yeah, it is to the christian, but it's about judgment coming on Jerusalem on judea on the temple and you christian if you don't leave this is what awaits you.

01:34:37

Yeah Cool Well, then can we move to verse 22? Because I think it kind of sums up that section.

01:34:44

I think it'd be a good stopping place for tonight, too If that's all right, are you guys okay? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to worry y 'all out either tonight either.

01:34:50

I don't know what time it is. So We're early man, it's just 9 45 Yeah, I got the week off of work so I hear you bro.

01:35:00

You just you're just lord of rings. You're just watching movies all the time I was in the woods most of the week too.

01:35:06

So Hey, I hope you get there before the end of the week, bro I've been sick in the first week, but man, it's getting cold and getting right.

01:35:13

So yeah, it'll be about 25 tomorrow morning That's right. It ain't gonna be that cold here, but it's supposed to be 29 saturday

01:35:21

I've been i've been watching it pretty good. Oh, by the way I just found out today. I got a free hunt to texas in december.

01:35:27

So I am stoked. I am pumped about that So I got I got a big blessing tonight.

01:35:32

I was shouting horses like I was like the lord just blessed me tonight. It's good

01:35:39

So anyways, so if those days had not been cut short No human being will be saved for the sake of the elect

01:35:47

Those days will be cut short. So So what do you think about that verse two because I think that's important in the context of verse 21, you know what

01:35:54

I mean? I think those Because it's talking about that same And tribulation

01:36:01

You know that great tribulation And and and there's a period of time obviously it's talking about days so So what does it mean to be cut short though?

01:36:12

What's what's what's the pre -mail say? Well in cutting short, how was it cut short?

01:36:19

What happened? But why is it cut short?

01:36:26

No, what happened? What what call it? What what? What stopped it? Well, they they actually broke in and Destructed stuff

01:36:40

No, what i'm saying is there the What do you

01:36:46

I mean I what it sounds like if those days had not been cut short. So in other words The picture is here there was some kind of intervention that happens here

01:36:54

So what was the intervention that kept them from just doing the same thing? Not only in jerusalem, but all across the whole culture like he's saying if they did this this tribulation if this let's say it is the the the burning of the temple and the and the romans coming in and the destruction of jerusalem and so So all i'm saying is

01:37:19

If that's if that's 70 ad then why didn't why is it they're not also except for the temple being destroyed don't get me wrong, but why is there not a 71 ad and a 72 ad and I mean multiple cities and multiple things historically what happened in that time frame that kept this great tribulation from just continuing because it says if If it had not been cut short

01:37:44

Then no human would survive So there had to be like an intervention is all i'm saying is what it sounds like to me

01:37:52

Well, they they were they had surrounded jerusalem for roughly three years um

01:37:58

There was no food uh, it was terrible um

01:38:06

Unless those days have been cut short unless god had not caused them to move and act there would have been no survivors

01:38:15

Yeah, gotcha And gotcha and i'm i'm probably

01:38:21

Missing it by a mile, but i'm you know, just looking at the at the text and as far as motivation goes

01:38:28

Um, the lord says but for the it's for the sake of the elect And so, you know, they would have perished like dan was saying if it wasn't for The sake of the elect god god was saving

01:38:41

You know the elect that's why those days were cut short if he hadn't cut them short

01:38:47

Then even the elect that remained in judea Would have perished as well.

01:38:53

Yeah, that's right gotcha And so so from from the future's point of view

01:39:03

That the day being cut short is is the second coming of christ That that there there are days of wickedness there is the days of noah and the in the intervention

01:39:14

Is the literal return? Not not just the rapturing of the church. I mean, I think that's where people get this really mixed up in the future's point of view from from orthodox futures point of view not just I don't even know how to say it tradition

01:39:31

You know, you know, they're they're just looking for a rapture all the time Right, right, but but but the intervention here is the king of kings and lord of lords on the white horse you know, so So so so what i'm asking is going back to my original question earlier

01:39:49

Is it not possible that? that it's both end that there is a

01:39:56

There's a historical point And just bear with me just for a second is 70 ad

01:40:03

Another historical Typology Of a futuristic event of a second coming.

01:40:11

So for example, if we go back to noah We know the story of noah is the wrath of god poured upon the earth

01:40:17

There's an ark and the ark is jesus christ and all that are in the ark are saved So there's a there's there's a typology there of of the gospel.

01:40:25

And so you have a man preaching the gospel His family is the only one there's an elect that enters into the ark chosen by god of all the land

01:40:34

There's this one family They're in the ark. They're saved from the outpouring of the wrath of god And so it's the picture of of the church in christ saved from the coming judgment and wrath of god upon the earth and so So all i'm wondering is too is and it may be a stretch.

01:40:50

So just tell me if i'm in lala land here, but Could it not be possible that that 70 ad even though fulfilled in a preterist point of view

01:41:00

If it's true, this is speaking of 70 ad is fulfilled. It's also 70 ad is a typology of A futuristic point of view as well that there's also another day for the sake of the elect that it will be cut short

01:41:12

But there is a tribulation coming not only in a local region, but even worldwide that this is a picture of a greater

01:41:21

Worldwide that the world has never known So here's the here's the foreshadowing. So the 70 ad a foreshadowing of Of a futuristic event and that's why i'm asking is is it possible that it's both end um

01:41:35

I don't know. I'm, just thinking out loud is all i'm saying I I would say no and I say that because verse 23 says

01:41:43

Uh, then if anyone says to you behold here is a christ or there he is do not believe him so I I don't know how that could be the return of christ to cut short a tribulation if He's saying, you know at that time when it's cut short

01:42:00

Here's jesus and he's like, no, it's not it's not me don't It says false christ

01:42:08

Other kind of try to lead people away um Yeah, I don't

01:42:15

I don't think so Okay, and the reason I say that too is in revelation And that's why that is a confusing point of view for me in millennial interpretations

01:42:24

That that if there is a binding of satan after a thousand years that he's loose that he may go out and deceive

01:42:31

So if matthew 24 is parallel in revelation There's there's if there is a literal thousand year reign of christ that if he if he does return king of kings lord of lords

01:42:40

There's a thousand year reign where satan is bound and he's released to go and and deceive as many as he can in that time

01:42:47

Before he's cast into the lake of fire then Then that fits in that context too is all i'm saying

01:42:56

So, I don't know. Like I said, that's where There's there's just a lot of parallels to me throughout the text as you line up eschatological eschatological texts are

01:43:10

That That it's it's it's broader than than one historical event

01:43:17

Um, or it's got parallels throughout the events and and so that's the reason i'm asking that question to you

01:43:24

So, okay. I just want to clarify make sure i'm understanding. Are you saying that there's a thousand years?

01:43:30

uh tucked in somewhere in verse 23 I'm, not trying to sound smart.

01:43:36

I just I no, no, no, i'm just asking that I mean because it's like there's there's

01:43:43

There's literal times and there's A long time you know what i'm saying where we've we've talked about that too and and and it's

01:43:56

Post -mill and futuristic. I think that is one of the things that that um, that is different there's a lot of Allegorical understanding from if i'm wrong if i'm right from my listening to it

01:44:09

It seems like there's a lot of things that are allegorical In post -mill point of view not literal except for The literal second return the second coming of jesus and so then the futurist point of view

01:44:21

There is some literal things that is futuristic that will be literal and so So like like the seals and the trumpets and the bowls

01:44:29

Those are more allegorical descriptions of a 70 ad event except for The second coming and then for the futuristic point of view is

01:44:40

There is a literal seven years. There is a literal thousand years and there is a literal point of view so So that's what i'm trying to say.

01:44:48

I don't know. I think what we're saying potentially is verse 21 and 22 represents seven years

01:44:55

Is if you're going on the futurist point of view i'm not saying that I agree with that i'm just presenting that point of view

01:45:01

Does that make sense? So because again i'm i'm kind of in the middle right now guys i'm really trying to I won't

01:45:07

I won't not just historical evidence, but I want scriptural evidence, too. And I and I think

01:45:13

I think historical evidence will prove scripture and scripture will prove historical evidence and and so that's that's where i'm struggling but from a futurist point of view then obviously 21 and 22 represent the seven -year great tribulation and then

01:45:32

Then at the end of that, yes, there is a parentheses in there of millennial in that process in there somewhere and then

01:45:41

Then verse 27 for as the lightning comes from the east and the west so will be the coming of the son of man

01:45:46

So that's also where you would get a post -millennial point of view is one perspective because then that That point period of time there has to be a period of time where there is a binding of satan

01:45:59

There is a binding up of forces of evil And they're not deceiving any more nations They're not it's not happening anymore that there is a freedom where the gospel flourishes without the deceiver in the land where he's not blinding the eyes that that people are able to see and so So that's where there's

01:46:16

I think there's both issues here that that doesn't

01:46:22

Get real clear real easy. That's all i'm trying to say. So I'm talking in circles. I apologize

01:46:28

What would and I feel like you'd like to answer that question about way again? Thank you Satan being deceived and and bound and not deceiving the nations.

01:46:36

Um, but before you do that if you wanted to do that, um I did want to answer your question, but I also wanted to ask both of you a question for clarification

01:46:46

So we're talking about the seven This term is used this way very in a popular way the seven -year tribulation but It's it's my understanding that that we get that idea that concept from from daniel whether but there's going to be three and a half years of peace

01:47:11

And then there's going to be the deception and then there's going to be the three and a half years of tribulation so according to that Perspective it's not going to be seven years of tribulation.

01:47:24

It's just going to be three and a half years of bad stuff and and if you look at revelation and you take it kind of As dan was describing some people take it chronologically there's going to be

01:47:36

You know this judgment and this judgment and this judgment then after that there's going to be the bowls and then you know

01:47:41

If you take chronologically and it's stretched out you've got to fit all that into into three and a half years

01:47:48

Um, and and to me that's that's kind of Um, the bowl the bowl's not big enough

01:47:56

Uh, and I agree and that's why i'm saying too there there's a lot it creates more questions than it does answer sometimes

01:48:04

I I definitely get that and that's but so please I'm, i'm just wanting to press this To to to know why we believe what we believe and you guys do that's the reason

01:48:14

I feel comfortable asking you these questions Does that make sense? I mean, so please don't take it as belittling or you know

01:48:22

I'm, i'm wanting to ask questions that are rolling around in our brains and it's not just me that has these questions

01:48:27

You know what? I mean when it comes to The post mill point of view if you if you guys are going to defend this point of view, these are normal questions

01:48:36

That are asking about this point of view and I want you to think through it and and no matter what stance

01:48:42

I land on or you land on we need to be ready to give a defense for why we believe what we believe

01:48:48

Does that make sense? And so so that's all i'm saying is you guys are doing that. Don't get me wrong.

01:48:53

I'm not I'm, please don't take that as a Derogatory term you guys are doing that. Um Well, I appreciate you being willing to ask the questions um, because I've i've always taken the stance

01:49:06

I could be wrong and I need you know, I need to be corrected I need to be sharpened and so it's it's nice to have somebody who's not um

01:49:15

Pointing a finger But willing to have a conversation sure, and so The difference with the seals and the trumpets

01:49:25

In that there there is a lot of hope In those judgments if you want to call them judgments, it's really not even judgments, but it's like in the seals who's worthy

01:49:35

To open this seal, you know for john's weeping who's worthy and in the lamp god who's slain before the foundations of the world

01:49:42

He is worthy and he's the one that starts it, you know, so it's him ushering in Whatever those processes are described in revelation

01:49:51

However long it takes or whatever it is. It's the lamb of god who's slain before the foundations of the world

01:49:57

He is worthy and so there's hope in the gospel all the way through that where it's punitive

01:50:02

Comes into the bowls. So the first six In that the three seals and the three trumpets are redemptive in nature to a degree.

01:50:11

I mean they are pleading with people and and there is in the midst of Really bad things that appear really bad.

01:50:19

It's still redemptive in nature Just like god's judgments on israel or redemptive in nature. And so but then the bowls

01:50:27

Very it appears punitive. It's not redemptive, but it's for the reprobate. It's for those that have Rejected or been turned over.

01:50:34

It is it is uh, it is a very punitive judgment, so um

01:50:40

So that's where that's what i'm saying in the context of matthew 24 if if revelation is an unpacking of matthew 24

01:50:50

Then there's god if we we have to we can't help but talk about those things And where that plays in and where that fits in the story of the revelation

01:51:01

You know and because it the whole book of revelation is talking about the end

01:51:07

You know, I mean it's talking about whatever that is And those that have an ear let them hear and understand and then of course going all the way back to daniel

01:51:16

As you mentioned there too, so you can't take one without the other Um, and I think that's what

01:51:21

I love about the word of god is that it is consistent old testament new testament and it's not that i'm separating revelation as not a part of the new testament, but it's like the bookend of the new testament, you know what

01:51:33

I mean, it's like It's it's having that piece together. So Well, and for me for me to answer your question earlier um, you were you were just talking about revelation and who was

01:51:44

You were talking about it was the the worthy one is the one who initiates it and to me that From my understanding that answers one of their questions in matthew 24 verse 3

01:51:56

Uh, you know, what's the sign of your coming? Well, you're you're coming He was saying i'm coming in judgment and then there you have what you're talking about in revelation

01:52:06

He's the one who who initiates it. That's his coming. He's coming in judgment and then

01:52:12

I think I think the reason I I would say no to the both end view is because of the next question um, they're asking end of the end of the age so this is specific to The the end of the age and so that's why as of right now i'm seeing it as Or i'm answering it as a no because he's answering their specific question

01:52:38

This is the end of the the old covenant age and the beginning of the new one sure

01:52:46

Good, so I have another question about that. So this is this is heretical what i'm fixing to say

01:52:51

So don't take me as a heretic I Think i'm just kidding. It's really not heretical.

01:52:58

It's just it is just a challenge on that I think most all agree with what you just said the end of the age is dealing with the end of the covenantal ages, you know, it's um

01:53:09

So first of all, why is there an issue with dispensation? if we do believe In a dispensation of covenant from old covenant to new covenant

01:53:18

So why do postmeal have issue with the word dispensation? That's one question.

01:53:24

All right, then the second question is So what does jesus mean and what does paul and luke and what does paul mean in romans?

01:53:33

that when the The time of the gentiles comes to an end Where does that fit in eschatology because there's definitely the definitive time when the time of the gentiles will come to an end

01:53:45

And there's still promises Back to the original jewish people

01:53:54

So there's a time of gentiles comes to an end. So so that's where to Not adding something to this

01:54:00

But I think it challenges the definition of end of age With something that jesus taught and paul taught that there's an end of age.

01:54:09

There's an end of gentile age, too There's a there's another ending somewhere That then there's an ushering in of something else that comes in Another focus that god's going to have in the midst of that and moments 11 talks about those things.

01:54:23

So So anyways, it's just another piece of the puzzle to throw out there to be thinking about Because like I told you part of my eschatology and i'm not impacted for you guys

01:54:31

So I don't really fit in any category. Okay, so i'm not going to do that tonight because Everybody really will think i'm veritable.

01:54:37

I'm just kidding. I'm really not that far out there guys But i'm just saying really a lot of my eschatology

01:54:45

Was formulated and my convictions that I have was formulated out of the study book of romans and and in god's relationship with jews and christians and grafting in and and cutting off and You know hardening of hearts so that there's a jealousy part.

01:55:04

And so I do think there's purpose There's always been purpose in tribulation. There's never been just God saying just for fun.

01:55:13

I'm going to just kick the snot out of them, you know, I mean it's there's always redemption in the midst of of tribulation as god's always

01:55:23

Outcome and that's what claude was preaching and you guys have been preaching all night that there's a hope even though we may feel

01:55:30

It's very dark um There's a hope to come out of that. There's a better tomorrow as a result of The struggles of today, you know, and so i'm i'm thankful for that perspective, but um, so anyways, those are those are just some more questions that I think in the long run maybe we could talk about some but um, but go ahead and finish up what y 'all are talking about now,

01:55:52

I mean that's I just wanted to throw that out there too. It's just thought process. Well, yeah, i'm like you i'm

01:55:59

I think we can There's no problem wrapping it up pretty soon. Um, and I think dan would be a good one to answer that first question um about dispensation versus um covenant viewpoints, um, and I think

01:56:14

I could possibly answer The second question about the the the end of the gentile age or end of the time of the gentiles

01:56:23

But I think I would probably need some help filling in the gaps but um

01:56:28

Do you know that it's all fair if you want to later, you know, we can okay. Okay.

01:56:34

Um Dan, do you want to touch on the dispensation versus covenant viewpoint?

01:56:42

Yeah, um, historically people who who Um espoused covenant theology have used the term dispensation they just don't mean the same thing as a dispensationalist does uh

01:56:57

So it goes back to what we're talking about earlier the definitions of it, I guess you could say right right they they would they would

01:57:03

Talk about a dispensation as a a dispensing of of either grace or covenant

01:57:08

So it'd be a revelation of god to man either through promise or revelation um instead of a different Um to borrow a dispensationalist term economy in which god works in the world

01:57:26

And then And then the answer is go ahead go ahead Oh, so so just to kind of put all that together

01:57:32

So if you hear an all -millennialist or post -millennialist who says Who usually the older ones who would use the word dispensation?

01:57:42

They're talking about either dispensing of grace or dispensing of covenant to the the the people of god um, and the dispensationalist would use the word dispensation as a period of time in which god

01:57:54

Uh interacted with mankind in a certain way now before anybody

01:58:00

Tries to get all squirrely dispensationalist historically have not believed in multiple means of salvation

01:58:06

Though I understand why they say that because Scofield and his reference bible is first edition was really unclear

01:58:13

And may have even screwed that up and then gone back and say, you know These guys are right and changed it in the second edition but yeah,

01:58:22

I don't want to like Don't want anybody under the bus for something. They don't know. No, it's good because I even had somebody the other day

01:58:27

I think had just a really bad understanding of like I define dispensationalism just the general term without attaching it to any

01:58:37

System is just how god's related to humans in space and time, you know how god has revealed himself in space and time and And I I actually

01:58:48

Again not trying to take a middle of the road here, but but max locato did a did a Curriculum years ago called the story and And of course i'm

01:58:58

I don't know that he and I would agree a ton on everything well, we would we agree a lot on theologically, but i'm sure there's things we would disagree on I mean, whatever but but what

01:59:06

I liked about it was He he took scripture references that were upper story scripture references and lower story scripture references.

01:59:14

So there's You know romans 8 28 and 29 You know those he foreknew he called as he called he justified those who justified and glorified

01:59:22

You know all things worked together for good those who loved god and called according to his purposes well, we love that and hold it to as a as a promise, but that's really an upper story passage because It's all past tense.

01:59:34

Ephesians 2 we're seated in heavenly places with him, you know, I mean No, i'm not i'm seated right here talking to you guys on a computer, you know

01:59:42

So but what i'm trying to say is that's an upper story passage That gives us a glimpse into The great

01:59:49

I am of no past present or future. There is no changing I change not and and we are absolutely secure in the hope of him and in his promises and and so it's beautiful in that so So I don't know that there's ever been a dispensation.

02:00:02

There's never been a change. It's always been by grace through faith There's that's never changed old testament or new testament

02:00:09

Even with abraham he believed god and god attributed to him as righteousness So it's always been the interaction of god the grace of god bestowed upon man man believes god and in god

02:00:21

Imputes righteousness by faith. I mean it's it's always Been that but then we can't deny there's the blood of goats and bulls

02:00:28

That's foreshadowing of the blood of christ and the lower story. And so it's always been grace and faith the upper story so there's always that covenant that has never changed, but so so anyways, that's all i'm trying to say is

02:00:40

I just I Trying to discern what the difference is between the dispensationalists or why is it why it's an issue to use the word

02:00:48

Dispensations and I and you you said it. Well, dan. Thank you. I appreciate that. I mean that answered the question I think why post -millennialists anomalies don't use it is because dispensationalists do use it so so presently

02:01:02

They won't use it just so they don't cause confusion But in their older writings, you'll read it because that was a language that they used back then

02:01:10

Sure, sure, and I just hate that how We get so dispersed into camps that we can't use words.

02:01:17

Just that's what we was talking about earlier. You know what I mean? That's true. I think it's crazy. So Thank you, man.

02:01:23

That's good. And for me to attempt to quickly answer your question about the the time of the gentiles um

02:01:30

And and dan, please correct me if i'm wrong Don't hesitate to correct me. Um so Claude was hinting at and and it's maybe something that we can discuss at some point but claude hinted at a couple times um the overlap period from the partial preterist post -mill position the the old covenant age

02:01:53

Ending or the old the end of the age the old covenant ending um, you know starting with with jesus and the ending with 70 a .d

02:02:03

And then the new covenant beginning and there was there was overlap in those two ages and from my understanding um, the the gospel was supposed to go out to the to the jews first And so it did

02:02:18

And then there was a going out to the gentiles which began with um

02:02:27

Is either with? I don't think it was stephen. Was it was it paul?

02:02:34

is is that when the the gospel Started going out to the gentiles and then that That time of the gospel

02:02:45

It's at the house of corneas Really with here in the house of corneas was where the first gentiles converging

02:02:53

Right, so that so that time of the gospel going to the jews Um proclaiming this new new covenant going to the jews first and then the gentile time um

02:03:05

Starting with with paul cornelius there was next and then the end of the overlap

02:03:12

The doing away with the old old age and leaving only the new age or the new covenant left

02:03:21

Was at 70 a .d and then it moved forward from there So i'm i'm saying that that time of the gentiles

02:03:29

Was in that overlap period is that right dan am I? Well, are you talking about where it's in uh chapter 11 verse like was that Yeah, go back to 25 and Yeah, it says until the fullness of the gentiles has come in and so all is really safe.

02:03:50

I I don't think that particular Okay, um is talking about the the changing in covenant.

02:03:56

I believe I believe that is talking about um

02:04:03

I believe it speaks of a future restoration of ethnically jewish people to the gospel

02:04:10

Where they'll be grafted back in right, amen, and that's and that's what i'm trying to say is

02:04:15

I think that's huge dan because I I do feel like in That's not a normal postmail statement what you just said it is

02:04:28

Well, well depending on who you read but what i'm trying to say is like is

02:04:34

Do not most postmails believe that the church has replaced israel So therefore israel is no longer israel, but it's like the church is the spiritual israel

02:04:44

No, and that it doesn't This passage here Yeah, this is one of them.

02:04:51

Maybe i'm mixing the views. It may be dispensations. I believe i'm not sure but there's one of the views That and maybe we can that's what i'm saying.

02:04:57

I know we weren't prepared to talk about this question. So, um, but There's one of the views that believes basically the church has replaced ethnic israel and so so I don't believe that personally but because of this text and that's what i'm trying to say is

02:05:14

That's where from this then Is where I is is where a lot of my um where a lot of my conviction of Um eschatology has come from because I think there are time periods where god is going to do something that has

02:05:34

That restores ethnic jews to to the gospel. It's not not just because their jews are saved. They're going to believe on christ

02:05:41

So so i'll pitch this out there and then we can talk about it later because we don't have time to do it tonight obviously So there's an end of age

02:05:49

Okay, so we're so that's what i'm trying to say. There's an end of age Then there's a kingdom comes and the kingdom is is

02:05:56

Going then there's a fullness of gentile age And then there's going to be a heart of god that turns back to ethnic jews.

02:06:03

And so there's events that happen so So how god has always

02:06:10

Always restored jews from their sin To faith has always been through great tribulation

02:06:17

So that's going back to verse 21 too. That's why to me this verse 21 and 22 is such a big verse in the context of all of the

02:06:25

Of all of eschatology understanding because there is a tribulation that happens Somewhere whether it's 70 ad

02:06:33

Okay, we agree that there was a tremendous horrific Tribulation happened there.

02:06:39

So then if it's done then then my concern is

02:06:45

What about this text? because then we've got an issue here because Then then god's not going to use

02:06:56

The work of tribulation to bring the jews back to the gospel because there's not going to be Any greater tribulation than what happened at 70 ad?

02:07:04

and so I would disagree that he was tribulation. I think god brings uh salvation to people through covenant

02:07:12

So he has given he's given the covenants of of grace to uh To the people who will believe

02:07:19

So he's not going to well i'm just going through i'm just going through historical old testament god has always used exile it is what i'm trying to say exile or Tribulation or struggles or trials to bring israel to repentance, you know, i'm even watching israel right now

02:07:39

What's going over there that it's? as far as pandemic goes it's It's worse there than it is anywhere else in the in the world right now and so I think there's a crying out in that, you know,

02:07:51

I mean there's a There's a calling out of god to In in the midst of that he's doing something there to make a better tomorrow

02:07:58

You know what i'm saying? I mean to go back to what we saw earlier. So Anyways, I don't mean to chase a rabbit here y 'all.

02:08:04

I mean, it's just that that's just another question in line with with with our conversation of of There's definitely these ages.

02:08:13

There's these timelines That definitely we can't deny happen in eschatology And and I just don't hear a lot of eschatology point of views

02:08:24

Dealing with this where the time of the gentiles will end. Well, then what about does that mean? No more gentiles will be saved in the midst of that.

02:08:31

Where did they all go during that time? You know and what happens and is that does that mean that there is a rapture there is a rapturing of the gentile church and there's a turning back so Uh to the heart of the jews and it just it just creates more questions

02:08:45

That's all you know, I mean and it's and that's that's part of what we're here for q and a so So is it okay?

02:08:52

Is it okay to pick up on that next time? Sure Okay So so when we end this recording i'm going to have you guys help me to jot down some notes to trigger our memory where we are um, but Let me throw this in there real quick You talked about replacement theology and dan correct me if i'm wrong, um

02:09:12

I would say that replacement theology Is not a legit actual viewpoint but it's just an accusation because of misunderstanding of a theological viewpoint is that Correct.

02:09:30

Yeah. I mean it's used of a certain theological viewpoint all the time

02:09:35

But never by the people who actually hold to it because that's not really what they believe right?

02:09:41

Yeah gotcha so that's all i'm trying to say is I mean it's like It's it's it's another one of those flag words.

02:09:50

Yeah I mean, it's definitely another one and it's worth It's worth talking about because sometimes

02:09:55

I think defusing things with these Like saying your calvinist means you don't believe in praying or sharing the gospel

02:10:05

I mean that's retarded, you know, I mean that's dumb and so um So so I mean defusing some of these things too

02:10:14

That's the reason i'm going to throw some of these words out there guys. It's not it's not that's good It's not accusatory as much as it is saying.

02:10:20

Hey, here's Here's what people think you are. So tell me, you know What are you?

02:10:28

Does that make sense? I mean it gives you a chance to defend Who you are and what you believe and and so I feel like that's part of my role in this too

02:10:36

It's for me to learn but it's also to to help To help people understand too and robert.

02:10:42

It's your show buddy so I hope i'm not I didn't mean to take over to not as much as I did but or talk as much as I did but At the end of the day guys.

02:10:50

I mean my heart is to to press us to the point that people understand And they watch this.

02:10:56

Um And I found I sound dumb sometimes when i'm talking I know but i'm not I'm intentionally asking some of these questions, but it's

02:11:04

It's to show people that there's a lot more in common than there are differences and And even though there's different points of view um

02:11:12

You know claude did an excellent job and our brother was preaching. You know what i'm saying? I mean he is preaching and I don't care what

02:11:19

What eschatology position you come from if you couldn't stand up and say yes and amen and let's roll kind of deal after you hear him sharing what he said then

02:11:30

Then your wood is wet man and and you need to get on your knees in your face before god and and really do some soul searching and and You know search out your own salvation with fear and trembling if you couldn't get excited about those truths that supersede any position that we may that we may try to defend

02:11:50

Um, because really and truthfully it's silly for us to defend the hill um To die on one of these when it's not a hill that we're called to die on to begin with we die on the hill of Jesus christ and him alone and and that's where i'm crucified with christ

02:12:03

And it's no longer me that lives but christ lives in us. And so So brother, you did a great job answering questions tonight, man.

02:12:09

I'm thankful for your Humility and bearing with me tonight. Well, thank you for your questions. And thank you for your answers.

02:12:14

Thank you dan I really appreciate you every time and um, let's let's end right there on the spirit of claude that we we stand in unity together

02:12:24

Um on the glory of god through his son jesus christ and the revelation of the holy spirit on his word the the life and work of jesus christ and what he did on the cross and our desire to See men come to him through repentance and faith

02:12:41

So we we stand on that unity and We we want people to to know him.

02:12:46

We want our communities. We want our families We want people to know jesus christ as our lord and savior and as king

02:12:52

So Thank you guys and i'm gonna End it at that point But i'm going to say