Pastors' Panel Podcast

Prayer for Wisdom and Humility

This is the pastor's panel podcast. I'm with Claude. I'm with Dan I'm with Jonathan and I'm thankful for these guys joining me Before we get started and jump into our subject tonight. Let me pray for us father we We know apart from Christ we can do nothing.

We can We can not we can't do good. We can't obtain knowledge. We can't apply what we learn. We can't know who you are. Without your spirit without your son without your word and father we are in total reliance and dependence upon you for everything for salvation for our sanctification our justification for for all good works for our our gospel proclamation and We come with humility and gratitude that you Work in our hearts and Drew us to you.

We pray that you would use this time. That we have together tonight for your honor and your glory. Would you teach us modus and make us to who you would have us to be as brothers as men? As we Lead our families as we lead in our churches.

For the For the glory of Jesus Christ our King and we pray in his name. Amen. All right. Oh, we lost Jonathan. He'll be back. It's really he'll be back. Alright, so we're gonna continue. I Don't know usually in this conversation We're talking about partial preterism.

We're talking about Post millennialism because we're we have some folks that have questions want to learn more about this this side of eschatology and so from my understanding the the subject The subject kind of Begins and ends with with verse 34, but I know that there's some Other questions once you get past 34, so we may end up going to the through the whole The whole chapter and that would be cool.

But at least up to verse 34 until everybody gets tired of talking about eschatology and we could talk about something else but I Think it's a wonderful subject as we we sharpen iron with one another and we grow together.

Defining Preterism, Futurism, and Millennial Views

We've been through verses 1 through 20 and tonight we're starting in Matthew chapter 24 verse 21 and it's a it's a good one to start on because it I think it can open up a can of worms and verse 21 says.

For then there will be a great tribulation. There's a big buzzword for eschatology. It will be a great tribulation such as not Occurred since the beginning of the world until now nor ever shall be. I Have a response.

I guess I would be coming with a defense of the partial preterist position and I don't know if you guys want me to to throw my two cents in first or if anybody because I know You're coming this coming at this verse from two different Viewpoints the futurist viewpoint where we're looking for this great tribulation to come.

And then you've got the partial preterist that says this was fulfilled, of course. The culmination was 70 AD so Does anybody want to start or or I can start us off so so you just defined right?

You just defined what partial preterism is and I think on the previous episodes that You had mentioned you just use the term preterism. So the difference I think in in in eschatology is harsh as important as it is in our day and time it's important that that churchmen really understand that difference between preterism partial preterism.

Futurist view right in in the kind of the the overarching. That the kind of kind of like the parentheses that are around the terms right we think about Postmeal all meal and pre meal, right? So the pre meal position and and I'm not.

And I'm just wanting to kind of frame this to make sure that that I'm coming at this the same way as you all so When we think about the futures position. Are you referring to the premillennial? Dispensational view.

Mm-hmm, right? Yeah, and then and then the the the preterist view Really is an extreme. Would you agree? Do y 'all agree? The full preterist view is Yeah. Yeah, because they say that basically, you know prophecy all of the prophecies have already been fulfilled.

Right, right including the second coming which would include the resurrection. Which really when it comes down down to it when we get to the you know, the biblical challenge of full preterism I mean we can go to 1st Corinthians chapter 15, right Paul in in in ad 50.

Whatever is it 1st Corinthians was written. He's addressing the issue that the same issue that was coming up. Concerning the resurrection, right? Because that's what he goes into he addresses the issue of the gospel.

And then he reminds him there's some among you who say the resurrection is already passed or already taken place so that's that's that thing gets important when we talk about this for me to keep you know, kind of subdivided in my head and then partial preterism basically is Already fulfilled and not yet fulfilled, right?

But hey when when we think about Revelation or Matthew 24 Luke, you know latter portions of Luke in Mark's Mark's accounts there as well we see those things fulfilled or the Postmillennialist all-millennial sees those things fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70.

Am I I'm on the right track here where you all have been I just want to make sure that I'm not you know, I'm not behind or or throwing in something. Something is that's wrong. Here, I just wanna make sure that I'm on the same page so I can I can understand what you all say or you know are talking about and saying.

So and for me, you know, we I was probably I was raised I was raised, you know pretty hyper premillennial dispensational, you know and Probably now I lean Historical premillennial, which is sort of like I'm not convinced of a pre-trib rapture holistically.

But I'm not post meal right now either, you know I'm still there's a lot of questions that I have and and so I like hanging out with people different points of view than me and that's where. You know I think that's what's so beautiful about this is is I think the heart behind all this is too is this is an open-handed issue that we don't have to divide fellowship over but it is great to have joyful conversation and and and and be honest about questions and be humble to learn and you know and grow together in that and and learn each other's perspectives, you know at the end of the day because I think as.

It's it's not that scripture evolves at all. But we are constantly changing, you know, we are constantly being sanctified we are constantly growing and there's things that I held great value in growing up and You know, for example the discussion on Calvinism, you know, and those things, you know it I was pretty angry when I first preached through the book of Romans I was I was pretty mad, you know, and yeah.

With these things and then all of a sudden it's really not not about me and it's not me in control. And it's not me that did all this. There's somebody else that did this and so anyways, you know I think that's where we're at.

I hope I hope everyone's humble enough to say we're all still in journey and none of us. Figured out but we do all have convictions too and we have good reasons to have our convictions, you know. And so we respect that and share that so so you feel free to share your position.

I know I've not been in the last few For being out of town and stuff, but I think that captures the heart of it on it Robert. I mean, that's. So I think it's fair for you to go ahead and start with your definition.

I didn't mean to cut you off Carl if you want to say no, no, no, that's fine. In any general it genuinely. It just helps me, you know to as far as dividing dividing up my thoughts. To have those definitions and and I think that's a to to what you were saying there too is is a big plays a big role in our.

How that we relate to one another if we have set defined terms. Right. For so when we say I'm talking about a all meal. I'm talking about a post meal. I'm talking about a pre meal. We know what we know what's being said amongst us.

Without there being any kind of a negative, you know a negative connotation. Yeah.

Absolutely. I appreciate you bringing up that point because I think it is good for those that may be watching for us to to make clarifications from to draw lines to let people know where we are and and all of us.

The reason we can have unity is because we all do draw that line at Full preterism because we would I think we would all agree that that's heresy yeah, but on the other side of that line and it was brought up in a past video that Those who are on the the pre meal dispensational camp They would I think they would cross their arms and they would say, you know, I'm not partial preterist and kind of Turn their eyebrows down to the term preterism, but it was it was a good point was brought up that well, we're all partial preterist because preterist preterist just means past so we believe that There were there were some prophecies fulfilled like the virgin birth That that's in the past that was fulfilled.

That's preterist. That's bad. But.

Hope, Judgment, and the Meaning of Matthew 24:21

Carry carry. Consequences with them because of people's experiences, right? And and I've met really condescending hateful pre-millennials, and I've met really hateful condescending post meal and You know that we're kindness is not there and then that kind of sticks with you as an identifier.

Then all are this way, you know, I've met militant Calvinist and militant Arminianist. I would say everybody in this chat rooms charismatic if you go by the strictest definition of just gifted but if I call you charismatic then.

Hold on a minute now that.

Again again the importance of defining the terms. I saw both of you.

You know, no, but really I mean if we do the word charisma, you know, we have gifts now. We could discuss that again. That's another one of those open-handed issues in my opinion. Of course hyper in any of those directions.

I don't think any of us agree with but I'm just saying, you know, but but Just the Greek word charisma. I mean just it's okay. We can have some charisma we can have Gifts and but if you say well, we're all charismatic.

No, are we you know? What you relate that to you, you know what you what your experience with that is and and. But I want to be a charismatic preacher. I want to be a gifted Preacher that matches with passion if I define it that way, you know with passion and with zeal and with with understanding and and Relating it to people and exegeting the word correctly.

And so if that's your word of being a charismatic pastor versus a guy that's slinging his coat and You know knocking people over. So that makes sense. I think it's the same thing eschatology terminology too is yeah, we have a We have a term that.

You know and and I would say Not only are all Preterists but all our future is to I mean all have a hope of the future of promises that was made for the future. So so again. It really that's why I'm taking passages like this and sort of breaking it down of seeing where in those points of view.

This is what I see in this and my understanding of this and here's my multiple plethora of cross references and then here's another perspective and here's my plethora of cross references and and at the end of the day, you know.

We we have to continue to seek and to search the scriptures and search the spirit and truth and and so that's where you know, I. But I have tons of questions. That's what I'm saying for me coming at this because I want to understand the post-millennial Perspective I want to understand where that comes from just because you don't you don't find many of those weird monsters to talk to so.

Yeah, and so let's dig into those questions and and just to. Kind of go along with what Paul was saying to to move forward. When we say partial preterism associate that with 70 AD and you know the the first century there so the the prophecies That would fall under eschatology or in times.

Happen at that time when we.

And I would say to when we anytime we talk about eschatology, it's it's very easy for no matter where what camp a person is in or to get the the ideas of The How can I phrase this or how should I phrase this the What we read what we're reading about in Matthew Understanding that to be the end of time period right the second coming of Christ as Opposed to the end of the age the you know the the end of the age Old Testament era there.

There was that that overlap there from a post millennium post millennial view, by the way I'm not a hyper post millennialist. I'm not an extreme post millennialist. I am of I am on the I would say I'm on the The low end of post millennial ism coming from With just what we've heard all our all our lives.

I mean, I'm 48 years old and You know, I probably outside of the last 18 years I've not been able to articulate a position because all I ever heard was the pre-millennial. You like if we all raised our hand there right at the beginning well, I don't know if Dan did or not, but Did you yeah, I mean so we've all come from that.

Yeah. I mean it's and it's just kind of the The pre-millennial view is just kind of the Understood rule or View that's taught and really it's not even taught to a large degree in a lot of churches It's just kind of the understood here.

It is. This is what's gonna happen. Don't question it And that's it.

Well Robert could I ask a couple overarching questions. Before we dive into the text, is that okay? Because that's because I threw a couple of things at Robert of the day is I've been studying in the background for a few weeks and.

And I just like perspective on a couple of things. So number one if I understand the post-millennial view. There's supposed to be a progressively the world becomes more Christian overtime. Is that correct like in other words the kingdom of God is taking over the world and so so.

So, but but in my reading of Matthew 24 If if there is a futurist and and what the way I read Matthew 24, and I don't know if it's even fair to do this I Actually read it both preterist and futuristic.

I think there's there's I feel like the first part of Matthew 24 is definitely from a preterist point of view. I feel like this transition in 21 Becomes more futuristic in my opinion, and I think there's a shift.

So I think there's like a both and in the chapter. But I don't know that that's doing justice to the to the exegeting of the whole thing that this will happen in this generation. You know and I and I get the point of view in that so.

So but it feels like in Jesus's tone even in reading this and stuff there's a shift at this point because it's like there's almost a progression but in Matthew 24 even in the progression is. It's getting worse and worse and worse if it wasn't even for the sake of it as we'll get into in a few minutes.

Had it not been even for the sake of the elect those days being cut short, you know. No one would would have survived, you know, but but for the sake of the elect God intervened and what is that intervention?

You know, so that's a that's another question that that that I think to be posed later. But so to me it feels like in Matthew 24. The trend is it's getting worse that that that even though the kingdom of God is going forth and dispelling darkness.

But it feels like skin or this so the second question I have to in parallel with that is from Systematic theology from a historical context. We have great people of God that came like for example from London and and like a ton of the Writers of our age if you will You know came from London and came from those things and now when we look at Europe, it's it's a primarily atheistic Continent, you know, I mean you go through Ireland and the revivals of Ireland, but now Ireland is an atheistic Country, I mean like so so rather than becoming more Christian.

They had great revivals. They had great awakenings, but then there's been a great falling away, you know in those countries now and so. So it's not trying to disprove it. I'm just asking what is the perspective?

If if we are if the world is becoming more Christian, so I do believe with all my heart. That's where I do align with post mill. I do believe with all my heart. That the kingdom of God is going forth and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

In other words, the gates of hell couldn't even stop it. So So there is no doubt wherever God works and wherever he chooses the kingdom of God always dispels darkness. First John light always dispels darkness.

But where is there places to where God has turned things over to? Depravity the judgment of God in Romans 1 have already come into the world and things have been turned over and they're not going to Become more Christian.

They're actually going to become more evil and more wicked as the days go along. And it's going to be more like the days of Noah. Then it is more like the days of Christ and so that's that's a that's a big question for me in the post mill versus.

Futuristic point of view. So so I'm sorry. I don't. Dan you got you want to answer that? I'm sorry. I don't want to.

Let's let's look at the what you said about Matthew. How it looks like in Matthew things are getting worse and worse. From the predators perspective we view that the Passage in Matthew 24 is talking about the end of the Old Covenant age the Old Testament so that while the Old Testament would be passing away while the the temple and the sacrifices and all that had been fulfilled in Christ and Their usage is past is being passed on.

Seeing the judgment on those people of God who had The Jews had who had not accepted Christ would turned him over beaten him Put him on the cross. The judgment upon those people is what we're seeing in Matthew 24.

So it's not really dealing with the kingdom of God going forward in in one sense. It's not that the king that things are getting worse and worse that the Christ's enemies are being put down. They're being punished in Matthew 24.

Does that make. Well, I don't. I don't totally disagree with that. But at the same time he is speaking to the Christians and it is the Christians in this text that are suffering.

So right Christians are told that when they see the abomination of desolation to get up and get out of town. Right, which 70 AD they did. They all saw it going down. They grabbed all their stuff. Well anything they couldn't they just ran.

Well they were running before that too with the Nero and Acts tells us that to the scat. So all I'm saying is like I don't disagree with that. I mean I and don't get me wrong I'm not discrediting in 70 AD.

I understand the end of the age. But it but for me too it feels like from this point on there's a transition to not just a location. But a but it it very much appears. Not just for this like one little geographical area.

It seems like a pretty. Such as not has been from the beginning of the world. So the only other worldwide epidemic that would be That that drastic would be the flood.

Be worldwide in scope of tribulation just a tribulation that took place within the world. Because what he's not necessarily getting at it's going to be that bad across the entire entirety of the planet.

Just that it's. How does verse 22 fit in those days have not been cut short. No human being would be saved.

No one will be saved for unless those days been cut short. No life would have been saved. He's talking about the the The Time leading up to the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem. So unless the the tribulation the Fighting against no one Titus came and he was attacking and sieging against Rome unless those days have been shortened.

Unless God didn't intervene and cause things to come to an end it would have gotten so bad that not a single person would have escaped or.

Come away from there. So I guess what I'm saying is in 70 AD the Africans felt nothing the Asians felt nothing right. Does that make sense, you know what I mean? I'm not a little I mean in there in the spiritual realm, of course, but I'm just speaking and I don't get me wrong.

I'm not combative. Okay, I'm just pressing it I'm just pressing it a little bit. Is that That. That's what that's. All I'm saying is I just thought there's a shift here and and to me. It's it's not it doesn't satisfy the text just to say 70 AD fulfilled all of that.

I don't think 70 AD was significant enough worldwide To to have that kind of description.

Sure, well, I don't believe though the text is talking about worldwide in Matthew 24. And the reason for that is is you find it back in the first part of Matthew 24. Jesus came out of the temple is going on his way as disciples.

They came up they pointed the buildings. They had a specific place in mind. It was the buildings Surrounding the temple. And then Jesus says don't you see these things. Not one stone would be left upon another.

And so they left they went to the Mount of Olives. He went to him said hey What are those things gonna happen? And what is the sign of your coming at the end of the age? So the question that he's answering is When are these things going to take place?

When is the stones going to be taken off of one another? So he's he's limiting his answer by what was asked of him in the first place.

Well, if I could just piggyback on that and I'm trying to find the person Luke but the context to me right before that. When he's telling them those of you who are who were in Judea or when you see the.

When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel Standing in the holy place. That you know, that's your part of your location, but those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. And I think there's a verse that I'm trying to find in Luke that says.

And those who are outside of Judea. You know. You're talking about maybe Christians who were in Africa or any anybody outside of Judea when this is taking place. Don't go in if you're out. If you're out don't go in.

And so it kind of zeros in on that location.

And I would add to Going just a little bit further because I think in your the second part of your question John. You would. Yeah, you had made reference to the fact that you know as it was in the days of Noah, is that correct?

I didn't want to I don't want to take you out of context.

No, no, you're right. I'm just saying it it it feels like. For the of course that's that. What I'm saying is part of the pre-millennial view is it's going to get worse and worse and worse. And the coming of Christ will be as in the days of Noah and so my my reading of Matthew 24 through that lens Has lended me to see Matthew 24 as it is getting worse and worse and worse, too.

You know that it starts at a sort of a higher point and then there's an erosion and there's greater Tribulation. Now at this point there was there was suffering in the first part of Matthew 24 now There's greater tribulation and then it's and and then the end will come, you know, so.

So so in Everything everything that we're talking about has to be understood in the New Testament has to be understood a lot of Old Testament, right? So Noah is the point of reference that Christ gives, right?

So one a question that I have that I had to ask myself. Concerning this was this was the the flood. Was the flood the end of all mankind forever. The answer is no, right. Because the waters abated no one his family were in the ark, right?

So the flood led to a. And I'm gonna use this lightly y 'all just tell me if I shouldn't or not but to a new creation, right a better hope right that there was a better hope that God brought them to and so even though it was at the cost literally of those in Noah's Day of every person in Humanity being destroyed with the exception of Noah and his family.

It was pointing to a better day, right that destruction bought brought a. It's somewhat you understand what I'm saying somewhat of a better day. So the destruction that Christ is pointing to here again isn't the end of the world.

That's why that's where we have to get we have to make sure that we we have our you know, our definitions there. We're not talking. He's not talking about the end of the world in general. He's talking about the end of the age and what is this end of the age bringing?

It's bringing a better day. It's bringing a better time because the old is passed away and the new has come even though from a human finite perspective. There was that overlap maybe of what 40 years or so if we if we're holding to the talking about the prejudice view there was that overlap of.

You know from the time the temple was destroyed, right? It was basically the temple was basically useless after Christ died on the cross anyway. Right, he cried it is finished and the veil of the temple was torn and entwined from top to bottom man signifying the way was made into the holies by Jesus Christ so the the temple.

The temple bore no more importance. I mean really it bore no more importance. I May get hate mail after I say this but it it bears no more importance. It makes no more holy the Christian than a church building does it does it's done.

It's it's finished because Christ paid the price. So this this destruction though awful though Horrible when we look at it from a historical perspective, right? So Jesus said there'll be date. There'll be a time of Tribulation such as which has not been from the beginning of the world.

Again, we take it that word by word phrase by phrase. If if we look at it at a from a futurist perspective, we see tribulation as a future event. Right as a future event we look at it from a partial preterist perspective.

We're looking at it literally as a as as a time of trouble a time of sorrow time of sadness. And so when we read I mean we just go to history. Can can I read one one paragraph from Josephus about this guys?

Is it? Okay, just seriously just tell me to shut up.

And why you look that up. Please read that what why you look that up there too and one of the key factors for me is is an exegete. I mean, I know I was double-checking myself while you're talking, you know, it is it does say world.

It's it's cosmos and like all the universe. And so all I'm saying is Jesus is is is talking on a very grand universal scale. That that's all I'm trying to say is is it and I know I Know I'm gonna think the pandemic of 2021 or whatever 2020.

You know. You know, that's been the worst time of my life, you know. Or I mean not really Honestly, but but but what I'm trying to say is there are brothers and sisters in Christ that are being tortured as we speak.

That's right. You know, they're they're dying as there'll be several Christians martyred in the time frame of this podcast. So so I know it's I know there is like a limited scope of view. Universally, you know, I'm just again and I want to hear what Josephus said as well.

But again, I'm just pressing a question in my mind. That I don't know that 70 ad had a cosmic Effect it did spiritually I get at the end of the age. There's a shift. There's the what's the end of the kingdom of God and and those kind of things?

But I'm trying to say is I don't I don't disagree With the kingdom of God being ushered in I'm just not so convinced that 70 ad is. Is that be all end all either like it had that it has to be the marker?

You know what? I mean that that has to be like. We're laying the stake in the ground on this one because I think there's been other catastrophic events all throughout history that That even going on in through it through Caesar hero and all of those kind of things.

That was horrific things of lining miles and miles of roads with crucified Christians and. And all the way through you know, and so so it so no matter where we go in history. There's horrific events that people think.

They're reading those events through Matthew 24. Well now we're in this time finally now we're in this greatest tribulation now. That's the future's perspective, yeah, it's wicked and and so. So anyway, go ahead and read what you just had to say.

I'd like to hear that. All right so.

Where was that one paragraph? Oh here's. So it says and now since his soldiers were already quite tired with killing men. And by the way, if I look hateful right now, it's not because I'm actually hateful.

It's because I'm squinting see the screen and. Now since his soldiers were already quite tired with killing men and yet there appeared to be a vast multitude still remaining alive Caesar gave orders that they should kill none.

But those that were in arms and opposed them but should take the rest alive but together with those whom they had orders to slay they slew the aged in the infirm and firmed in. But for those that were in flourishing age and who might be useful to them They drove them together into the temple and shut them up within the walls of the court of the women.

Over which Caesar set one of his freedmen, right? So so I mean Josephus is given us giving us Another historical reference. I know it's not scripture. It's but it's his historical reference right to the court of the women.

That's the outer court, right? So so It says this fronto slew I guess that's the guy's name so fronto slew all those that he had been That had been seditious and robbers and were impeached by one another but of the young men he chose out of the tallest and most beautiful in reserve them for the triumph and as for the rest of The multitude they were above 17 year old 17 years old.

He put them into bonds and sent them to Egyptian mines. Titus also sent a great number into the provinces as present as a Present to them that they might be destroyed upon their theaters by the sword and by the wild beasts.

But those that were under 17 years of age were sold for slaves now during the days where in fronto was Distinguishing these men there perished for one of food 11 ,000 some of them did not taste any food.

Through the hatred their guards bore to them and for and others would not take it. Any when it was given to them the multitude was also very great that they were in want of Corn for their sustenance. I mean, that's just one little example of talk of you know, a historical documentation in in to the to the idea of Using 8070 as a marker I mean really again, certainly there have been horrible events, but there have never been Horrible events outside of the destruction of Jerusalem by which we have a biblical point of time reference that we can look at and say because the generation was what 30 to 40 years right so Jesus said There are some of you standing here who will not taste death until you see the kingdom of God coming in power.

And in in relation to a judgment idea there so so but but I agree with you there John to that, you know, it's It would be very easy for anybody just just the plain reading of the text because we are tainted all of us we're all tainted with a Preconceived idea of what the scriptures talking about right there.

But when we when we take and we measure scripture according to scripture again setting some Setting some guardrails for ourselves that that everything that we're reading in the New Testament is in light of what is already written in the Old Testament in Every point of reference that we that we see every statement every phrase every idea That is conveyed by Matthew by by Mark by Luke by John in Revelation.

Every idea when we we see that this judgment talked about is in reference to that of the Old Testament. So when when we do that, it really for me I'll say that for me it it really makes it it makes me unable to set any other landmark.

Or you know to tether to any other event in history To to determine an eschatological point of view there. So I mean that's for me.

Does that make sense? Yeah. No, no. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Totally. Yeah, I understand where you're coming from.

The World, Judea, and the Scope of the Tribulation

Yeah, would y 'all mind if I piggyback off that and and give it My defense on what I had looked up and before I do that I was just looking at the verse again. Verse 21 and If the Greek word order is different than than what I'm reading in the my English translations.

Let me know but if we're This is the perspective that I'm coming from and I don't I don't know if we're in in full agreement but if the context is Judea Jerusalem the temple if the that's the geographical context.

The verse is Has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, so This is just the way I'm reading it and I could be wrong when it uses.

No, no, no never shall be right, right. So it is that's what I'm trying to say. There's a tension here of Preterist and futuristic Jesus is making This statement that this great tribulation not only to interrupt you both.