WWUTT 805 Q&A American Gospel Review, What About Bullies, and Eugene Peterson's Legacy?

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Have you seen the documentary American Gospel? It's a good one. What does the

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Bible say about bullies? And how should we remember the life of Eugene Peterson? The answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

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This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study in the word of Christ, whose words have the power to convict a person of sin and raise a dead man to new life.

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Find all our ministry resources at www .utt .com.

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Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. And thank you to you and Sonia for making my sweet tea.

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Oh, you're welcome. I was going upstairs to get more tea before recording the podcast, and I realized as soon as I opened the fridge,

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I was like, oh, we drank the last of it at the end of Bible study. There's not going to be any sweet tea in here.

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And lo and behold, there's a full pitcher. And I knew exactly who had made me some more sweet tea.

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So thank you, Sonia, if you are listening for my fresh pitcher of sweet tea, co -made by my co -host.

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Did you all do it together? No, she chatted with me while I did it. Oh, you did it? Yeah. Well, thank you.

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And thank you, Sonia, for keeping my wife company while she made my tea. It was lovely to chat with her today.

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So being Friday, we take questions from listeners, and you can submit a question to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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On Thursday, I think I answered like seven or eight emails, so I got caught up on quite a few emails.

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But none of those emails are in the broadcast today. Of course. We have to pick up where we left off, so we still have to answer the second part of Debra's question.

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Yes. And then Anonymou from over at Theology Driven had a question about Eugene Peterson, who passed away this past week.

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I don't think he's known as Anonymou over at Theology Driven, though. Oh, he's not? Is he? I don't know. We're going to keep him

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Anonymou on this program, though. Hi, Anonymou. We do know your real name.

02:16

That's right. And his dog's name. Their brand new puppy. Yes. Oh, so cute.

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His name is Luther. Yes. Now, originally they were going to name him Jonathan Edwards, but honestly, Luther is the better name.

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That is the better name for that dog. Yeah. I think that was a good idea. Before we get to the questions, though, we want to talk about the new documentary that is out entitled

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American Gospel, Christ Alone, that is written and directed by Brandon Kimber.

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Becky and I had the privilege of watching this documentary this past week on Vimeo. You can actually rent it on Vimeo for $4 .99,

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and eventually it's going to come out on DVD. But right now you can rent it. It will be worth every penny to spend the $4 .99

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to go ahead and rent it, and then maybe later on you can purchase the DVD when it comes out. But it is a great, great documentary.

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What were your thoughts? Well, initially, I didn't know anything about it.

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Yeah. I just told her we were going to sit down and watch it. We're going to sit down and watch it. Okay. So, first things first, when

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I saw the time. Yeah. That's the first thing Becky sees. That's the first thing that I saw. I'm like, I'm not going to make it.

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It is two hours and 20 minutes. It is. And we stretched it out over two nights. We did. And just about right in half.

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And it was perfect. Yeah. It was perfect for that. Because we did an hour and 10 minutes one night and an hour and 10 minutes the next night. Because I'm pretty much a go to bed right as soon as the kids hit the pillow.

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So, it was a good amount of time. Yeah. I mean, in a good way. It was...

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Every minute of that documentary is used wisely. Yes. Yeah. There is never a part that it drags.

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Right. And it kept your attention the entire time. Yes. I didn't know it was a documentary. I don't know why

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I was surprised by that. Okay. But it really was. And I was...

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I don't really enjoy documentaries that well. But this one was just... It was so good. So, basically...

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It really was. Basically, the documentary is about the prosperity gospel. Right. Because that is America's leading export into other nations and other parts of the world.

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Exactly. The things that they teach and how it is contradictory to the true gospel.

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Now, if you've ever watched Justin Peters and you've seen Clouds Without Water, you've seen him do this.

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So, he'll play clips of those guys and then he'll say what the Bible says contrary to the kind of teaching that they present.

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Right. This documentary, what makes it different than what Justin does, from the very get go, presents the true gospel.

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Right. And then shows the American gospel. And then you're going back and forth with that through the entire documentary.

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Right. And you're hearing it from multiple teachers. Yeah. There were a lot. So, many different sound teachers who are presenting the true gospel.

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And then you're getting clips of the most popular teachers in America and what it is that they're teaching that is contrary to this gospel that is being presented.

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Right. To the true biblical gospel. Because you get that contrast even in the title of the documentary.

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Right. So, you have the American gospel, you have Christ alone being the true gospel. So, you see that contrast in the title and you get that back and forth all the way through the entire documentary.

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The whole way. Yeah. Now, there is... It was interesting. The way he...

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Like, one person would say the gospel and then the next person would be something totally contrary to what that person just said.

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Yeah. Like, exactly the opposite. Yeah. And it was just dumbfounding. Because, I mean,

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I kind of... I didn't really go with that crowd for very long, but I kind of swayed that way from time to time.

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And, man, that was just... I just can't believe that that prosperity gospel just...

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It's so... It engulfs everybody. Right. How many people go with it? Yeah. But it's the whole thing of, you know, the

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Apostle Paul saying to Timothy, the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching.

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Right. That's true. But they will accumulate teachers for themselves to scratch their itching ears. I know. But it's just amazing about what they say.

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I mean, just... If you open your Bible, you're gonna know that they're wrong. I mean... Yeah. You just have to read even one book out of the

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Bible and you know it's wrong. So... One New Testament book will undo a whole lot of false teaching.

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Yeah. No joke. It was just enlightening. It was eye -opening. Crazy. You had testimonies from people in the documentary.

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Oh, heartbreaking. Talking about how they had been sucked into this theology and how the

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Lord rescued them out of that into sound teaching. And yeah, Becky and I, we both laughed.

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We cried. Oh, my goodness. There were tears. I don't like crying.

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Especially... I especially don't like crying. Especially at night when she's about to go to bed. Yes. No. Because she doesn't want to go to bed on that note.

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Give me something happy before I go to sleep. Let me laugh. I don't cry. I don't like to cry.

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But yeah, I couldn't help it. I was blubbering. And some of our friends, people that we personally know, were in the documentary.

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Right. So it was wonderful to see them. That was so cool. Yeah. And hear their stories and hear their teaching and things like that.

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And then other people that we haven't met... But we probably know them through Twitter or something like that.

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Yeah. We were able to put a name to a face to a voice. Yeah. It was really neat to have all three connected.

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Yes. Now, there's a way the documentary starts and ends that was very surprising.

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And I will say that it was the most surprising thing for me. I did not expect that coming into the documentary.

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And I've heard people say things about it and did not even mention that at all. And it really was one of those heart -catching -in -my -chest sorts of things.

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And I can't tell you why. Because you just have to watch the documentary to see it. Right. But it's absolutely wonderful.

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People are going to get saved watching this documentary. Oh, amen. I wanted to... Right away,

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I'm like, where is the DVD? I need to send this to this person, to this person, to this person. I'm making a mental list.

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Right. And I'm like, if only they will sit through a little bit, even. Yeah. And maybe it'll catch them.

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I think this is something that in the future you will probably be buying copies of and putting it in your church.

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So that you can hand off to somebody. Right. And say, here, please watch this. Yes. So it was like for the first 20 minutes or so,

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I didn't time it. I didn't even really watch notes. I just... Or I didn't keep notes. I just enjoyed watching a documentary.

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But for about the first 20 minutes or so, you're getting just gospel. Yes. That's what you're getting at the very beginning. Yes. And then it starts throwing in the

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Americanized gospel. Mm -hmm. And you start getting the contrast throughout the rest of the documentary. And then it ends about the same way that it begins.

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Mm -hmm. But again, with that kind of surprise to it. That I just wasn't expecting. Brandon, you did a fabulous job with it.

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Oh, amen. And Brandon told me that he saw me at G3 this past January.

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Mm -hmm. But we just didn't connect with one another. Aw. And it's these kinds of things that we're hoping that the booth is going to help to...

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Yeah. That people know, hey, you can just come and chat. We'd love to meet with you. And I know there was a couple of times that people had mentioned on Twitter after we got back home.

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Yeah. Saying that they tried, but we were busy chatting with somebody else.

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Yeah. They saw us talking with somebody and couldn't make it over. So just come by the booth and come by again and come by again.

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You know? There's a giveaway that you can only qualify for if you've visited every single booth.

09:53

Oh, yes. That's true. So see, you have to come visit us. Yeah, you do. If you're at the

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G3 conference in January. Speaking of that, Jeff contacted me this past week. Last week, we mentioned that for the last two years, the

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G3 conference has experienced snow and ice. Right. That isn't true. Oh. It was only this past January.

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Oh. It wasn't the year before. I think I thought I heard... I think I thought. I think I thought. I think

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I thought. I thought I thought. I thought I heard somebody say, oh, again, we had this problem last year.

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Let's see here. I'm gesturing again. I'm bumping into my microphone. Stop it. It was...

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So I just misunderstood. I thought I heard somebody say that this is the second year in a row that we've had the snow and ice problem.

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Apparently, it's only been one year. Okay. So we're in luck. Freak phenomenon. Yay. Yeah. And hopefully in talking about this, we're not discouraging anybody from going to G3.

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Oh, it was great. It was totally worth it. Yes. Certainly was. It was totally worth it. It was a wonderful conference, which is why we're going back.

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Right. And hope to see you there. Yeah. If you want to help us get there, which we've already covered the cost of the booth.

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And we want to thank our special contributor for covering our hotel stay.

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Oh, my goodness. Thank you. Thank you so much. Somebody contacted me this past week. That's so sweet. Yes, it was wonderful. Thank you very much.

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But we still need to put the booth together. And while we've covered the cost of our travel expenses and all of that now, we haven't covered the cost of the booth.

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Right. So if you could help us in putting the booth together, that's what any additional contributions will go toward.

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Right. Simply go to www .utt .com, click on the Give tab, and then follow the instructions.

11:36

Getting to our questions today, we come back to a question that we answered half of last week.

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And now we're going to get to the second half. Debra had sent this email. She said, should

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I be listening to this song called O Taste and See? That was the part of the question we answered last week.

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Right. And then the second part is, what does the Bible say about bullies?

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What does it say about bullies? I had pulled out a lot of scriptures to answer this question last week.

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Okay. And then we ran out of time, so I didn't answer the question. Right. And then I didn't save all of the scriptures that I had pulled out.

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Oh, no. So I had to do this again, pulling out some scriptures to respond to this question.

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Well, it's good exercise for you. That's correct. So first and foremost, you have the greatest commandment that Jesus gave us, that we love the

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Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And the second one is like it. Right.

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To love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hinge on these two commands. Right. Leviticus 19, 18, you shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

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I am the Lord. So when it comes to how we should behave toward other people, we need to show love.

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Right. Now, one of the things that we do need to understand is that we as Christians will experience suffering, and we will be ridiculed.

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Right. And we will have people who will shun us and speak ill of us, and we will be persecuted.

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Right. Second Timothy 3, 12, indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

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So that is a reality that we need to come to understand and accept, that as Christians that's simply something that we are going to face.

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Yeah. But Jesus saying to us, when they hate you, remember that they hated me first.

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It's not really us that they're hating, it is Christ that they hate. Right. But we need to know how to behave and respond like Christ.

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Not responding to them with the same ridicule that they show us, but we behave like Christ even when there are going to be those who will otherwise bully or speak ill of us.

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First Peter 2, 20 through 23, but if you do good and suffer for it, and you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

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For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example so that you might follow in his steps.

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He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return.

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When he suffered, he did not threaten, but he continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

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So we see there in the actions of Christ when he was arrested and put on trial for doing nothing wrong.

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Right. Even he did not revile anyone in return and he did not threaten anyone.

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So what Peter shows to us there is that there was no word that came from Jesus' mouth that responded to his opponents like they were treating him.

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We need to respond with kindness. And just as Christ entrusted himself to him who judges justly, so we need to do the same.

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Entrust yourself to God and do not respond to those who speak ill of you the same way that they're talking about you.

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Right. Peter will go on to say a couple of chapters later. First Peter 4, 12 through 16. Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you as though something strange were happening to you.

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But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

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If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed because the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

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But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. Yet if anyone suffers as a

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Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. In other words, don't do things to encourage bullying to come upon you.

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Right. Don't behave like a jerk because then what a person's responding to is likely not the faith that you have or the

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Christ that you serve. It's likely. It's your attitude. Yeah, you're acting like a jerk. That's what it is that they're responding to.

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So don't suffer because you were an evildoer or a meddler. Be one who suffers as a

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Christian and don't be ashamed, but glorify God in that name. So what if you come upon somebody who's bullying somebody else?

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Not necessarily about Christianity or anything. If they're like, okay, you're saying not necessarily related to Christianity or anything.

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So what kind of bullying are you talking about? Okay, so I was in the store the other day and I am looking at something at one end of the aisle and at the other end of the aisle, these two boys come running around the corner.

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One of them's younger, quite a bit smaller. The other one's taller, older. I don't know how much older, but he didn't act that much older.

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Anyway, so the big guy, the big kid trips the little kid on purpose and the little kid falls down on his face and he's old enough to be embarrassed.

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I mean, he's not little, not tiny. Like our son, Zeej. Not that little.

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Okay, not that little. He was a little bit older than that. I would say about 10, maybe 12. And then the other kid is early teens maybe by the way he was acting.

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So the younger kid is embarrassed and he's not funny and stuff like that and telling the guy to stop.

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I couldn't tell if it was brotherly love or if it was a bully kind of thing. Because you couldn't tell in that situation if there really was just horsing around or if the older kid was bullying the other one.

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The way the younger one responded, it sounded like it happens often. So he just kind of endures it.

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Well, I have confronted situations where I saw two people fighting and stepped in between them and said, hey, what's going on?

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There was one time a friend of mine and I, Andrew, were out at the park here in Junction City playing disc golf and there were two people that got into this duke -em -out fight.

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And so all I said was... At a park? At a park. But there weren't any kids around.

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We really were the only two that saw it, Andrew and I. And so I just shouted, I went, hey. And then they kind of looked up and saw me and they both kind of walked separate ways.

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And the one who was really the recipient of the beating, wasn't really a beating, that's kind of a harsh word, but there was definitely a physical altercation.

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Okay. The one who was more the recipient of the altercation came toward me and said, hey, look, please don't call the cops.

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And it hadn't crossed my mind because it wasn't that bad. Right. But it was definitely, there was anger being expressed and there was some sort of exchange going on.

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Yeah, dispute. Enough to cause me to say something about it. And so I said, if you guys think you got it figured out, I won't say anything, but...

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Figure it out. Yeah, definitely take care of the problem, whatever it is that's going on. Well, these were two minors and they were,

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I mean, it kind of was brotherly, you know, because the way that he endured it and he just kept saying, you know,

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I've told you before, don't, don't do that. And that really hurt. And I mean, he was, he was really hurt though.

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Yeah. He felt pretty hard. I also... And then embarrassment on top of that. Right. That's why I didn't want to go over and be like that motherly person and be like, oh, are you okay?

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Yeah. You know, make it worse. So... I've also, I was an RA in college.

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I worked at a high school. And so I've been in those situations where I'm kind of the person that should step in front of those.

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Right. True. Those kinds of things. I'd say it's a case by case basis. I mean, do you really think that you can do anything for one?

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I mean, when it's kids, yeah, you can certainly jump in there and say, hey guys, no, knock it off.

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I'm bigger than you. Well, it didn't keep going. So that's why I didn't. Right. It sounds like it was a situation you really couldn't tell if they were just horsing around or if somebody really was beating someone else.

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But if somebody was, then you should step in. I think you should. Right. Mm -hmm. Depending on if you really...

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Or call the cops. Or call the cops. If it's that dangerous. I mean, right. Do you think you could make a difference in that situation? Right. Or do you think you're going to make another victim?

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Mm -hmm. If you see somebody being ridiculed by somebody else... Mm -hmm. ...stepping into that situation and defending someone or saying, why are you using words like that to put this other person down?

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Mm -hmm. Maybe even have an opportunity to share the gospel in that situation. Because you can say, we are made in the image of God.

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Mm -hmm. You are an image bearer of God. They are an image bearer of God. Right. So when you speak so disparagingly of that person, you are actually blaspheming

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God. And Jesus said in Matthew chapter 5, it's the same as murdering in your heart.

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Right. For you to think so ill of a person. If you say you fool, you are guilty of the fires of hell.

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Mm -hmm. And the judgment of God will be upon you. And so, how can you be forgiven of this sin here?

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Well, you must turn to Christ. So, see, you could turn that into an opportunity to share the gospel.

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True. When it's some sort of a situation that you can actually step into and separate. Right. And you think you could make a difference there.

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But there are probably other times, depending on how serious it is, it's probably better to either call the authorities or go another way.

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Right. Whenever we are—when it comes to the way we are bullied, you know, if we're ever bullied, scripture is pretty clear on how we're supposed to respond to that.

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Romans 12, 19 through 20, Mm -hmm.

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So, Jesus also saying in Matthew chapter 5 that you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

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Right. Of course, we should know as Christians that we are not to be the bullies.

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1 John 2, 9 and 3, 15. But just to clarify, if we get a punch thrown at us, it's okay to call the cops?

22:35

Yeah. Exactly. Depending on the— I mean, if it's going to be a brawl, like if they're just going to pummel you type of thing.

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Where you feel very threatened. There might be a situation where, depending on your wisdom and discernment concerning that particular situation, maybe you think that in your attempt to share the gospel with this person, calling the cops might—

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Hinder it? Yeah, hinder you from sharing the gospel. And that's up to you. It's a case by case. Yeah, it is. It is okay to call the cops if you feel life -threatened.

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Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, there are friends of mine who have gone out and done street evangelism, and they have been physically threatened by people out there because they were evangelizing.

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Right. Well, it's fine for you to call over a police officer and say, hey, this person was physically threatening us.

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There's a video of, I believe it was Tony Miano, who was sharing outside an abortion clinic.

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There was a man that ran up with a can of Comet, like the bathroom cleaner, and threw it at them.

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If that gets into your eyes, that will blind you. Oh, yeah. And so there was a cop passing by, and Tony flagged down the cop and informed him of what that man had just done.

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I don't know if charges were ever pressed on him or not, but don't feel like you can't do that.

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Right. Like, as a Christian, I'm not supposed to press charges against anybody. I'm supposed to just turn the other cheek.

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Right. In some cases, it's not appropriate. You love justice, and so justice needs to be done in those particular situations.

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A person should not be allowed to get away with that kind of behavior. Right. If you were in the position of a judge, you would certainly convict that person for that kind of threatening behavior.

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So it's perfectly fine if somebody is going to threaten you that you can contact the authorities and let them do something about it.

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Right. That goes to Romans 13. Oh, hey. Segway. Which is right after that passage in Romans 12, where it says that God has instituted all of the governing authorities, and the governing authorities are an avenger who punish the wrongdoer and praise the person who does good.

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They promote good behavior and punish wrong behavior. Right. So leave it up to the governing authorities to take care of those particular matters.

24:55

If that is appropriate. Yes. Yes. If the situation certainly calls for it. Yes, exactly. Okay. So this past week,

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Eugene Peterson passed away, and Eugene Peterson, of course, was the author of the

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Message Bible. You say, of course, like I should know that. Well, that's what he's most known for. Okay. Sorry.

25:14

So saying Eugene Peterson. Becky's not great with names. I'm not great with names. No. I try. We were watching the

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American Gospel documentary. Yes. There was somebody whose name I didn't get, and you did. Yep. Do you remember who it was?

25:26

Nope. Okay. She had a moment there where she remembered a person's name

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I couldn't remember, and she was like, yeah, I got one. I'm so happy. I don't remember the name, though.

25:38

Yeah. Sorry. But Becky's terrible with names. I'm working on it. Doesn't do well with names.

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I'm honestly working on it. Improvement. Yes. Well, of course. You have.

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But it's still struggle. She recognized Justin Peters and Kosti Han when they popped up on the documentary.

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Of course. So, anyway, Eugene Peterson, most known for having written the

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Message Bible. So, he died this past week of old age, 85,

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I think it was. Okay. He was put on hospice about two weeks ago. So, it's kind of like, you know, his family knew that this was coming.

26:17

Anonymous, who is with Theology Driven. Yes. Thank you guys for your podcast.

26:23

Great job. Yes. He proposed this question, presented it on Twitter. And this was in an exchange that you had with him.

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So, he says, I don't understand all the praise for Eugene Peterson. I mourn his death, and I certainly hope he was saved.

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But most of the comments I see, even some from people I think are solid teachers, are praising him for his theological contributions to the church.

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What did he contribute that was so great? I wonder if you and Pastor Gabe can address this subject for Friday's episode.

26:53

I certainly understand not trashing the guy when he dies, and I do hope that he repented.

26:58

But the horrible things he did with God's Word, not to mention his ambiguity on sin, shouldn't be ignored, right?

27:07

And I would agree with that. Yeah. We should not ignore the things that Eugene Peterson said and did in his life, thinking that he was some great hero of theology.

27:19

He really was not. To Peterson's credit, before I get into this, let me first say,

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I really don't know much about Peterson. So, let me say that up front. Yeah, I don't either. I've never read a book by Peterson.

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I've never listened to one of his sermons. I catch bits and pieces in articles, and I know that he wrote the message, and I've read a lot of the message, enough to know that this is not a

27:41

Bible translation. Right. You've told me that, too. Yeah. It's Eugene Peterson's version of the

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Bible. So, when somebody quotes the message, they're not quoting the Bible. They're quoting

27:53

Eugene Peterson. Interesting. It is so far removed from what the Bible actually says, you can't use it as a

27:59

Bible translation. It is only Eugene Peterson's commentary on the Bible. That's all it is.

28:05

Okay. Now, to his credit, I remember there being a quote, and I tried to find it before recording this episode, but I couldn't find it.

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I remember there being a quote from Peterson where he lamented the way that the message gets used in so many sermons, that pastors will actually use it as though they're quoting the

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Bible instead of, you know, quoting the Bible and then using

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Eugene Peterson to try to give a little bit more understanding to the text, which is that's what

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Peterson would like to be done. That's what he wanted the message to be used for. So, somebody would quote an actual

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Bible translation and then maybe use the message to give a little bit more clarity.

28:48

So, he was trying to do a commentary? Well, Peterson wrote the message to help a

28:55

Bible study class at his own church. Okay. And he's a Presbyterian minister. He used to be a pastor, and this was like 25 years ago, so he's been retired for a long time.

29:07

Okay. But he used to be a pastor in the PCUSA, which is the Presbyterian Church USA, the very liberal side of the

29:14

Presbyterian denomination. Okay. And Peterson was very liberal. Okay. He was liberal in his theology.

29:21

He was liberal in his political views, which I'll get to here in just a moment. But, again,

29:28

I want to say that to his credit, I remember there being a quote from Peterson where he said this is not the way that he intended the message to be used.

29:35

So, he really didn't mean for it to be a Bible translation. Yeah. What I gathered from stuff that Peterson has said about the message is he really did intend for it to be received as a

29:46

Bible commentary. Okay. Not as an actual translation. But that's the way it's been presented.

29:52

And, honestly, shame on the publisher for presenting it that way. Right. And shame on any pastor who has ever used it that way.

30:00

Now, I don't think the book is any good, and I don't think anybody should use it. I have a copy of the message, but it's only for reference.

30:07

Yeah. Got your stamp on it? No, I did not put the heretical stamp on it.

30:13

But it's not, I will say it's not on my Bible shelf. Oh, that's bad.

30:20

It's not with the rest of my Bibles. It is just a Eugene Peterson commentary. It is not a translation of the

30:26

Bible. So, that was what Peterson was most known for. And, at the same time, it's the very thing that he should be most criticized for.

30:34

Okay. Even though he did not intend for the message to be used that way, I also don't think that he really made much of a case of, hey, guys, stop using the message as a

30:44

Bible translation. Yeah. You could probably find Peterson saying a lot of things. I get the impression that he was kind of an

30:51

N .T. Wright sort of a figure, where you could find Wright saying one thing about one doctrine and then saying something completely different about that same doctrine.

30:59

Oh, okay. And it seems that would be the case with Peterson as well. And I'll show you why here in just a moment.

31:04

Okay. But, first of all, here's some of the comments that have come from various teachers following the passing of Eugene Peterson.

31:12

And you kind of get a better understanding of the kind of people that loved

31:17

Peterson and his theology. Okay. So, this one says, I just learned that Eugene Peterson is with Jesus.

31:24

So many thoughts. I knew him. He encouraged me in my writing. And he was my role model for doing the work of a pastor in the impossible modern

31:31

American context. His legacy is incalculable. Brian Zond.

31:38

Brian Zond is a pastor over in St. Joseph's, Missouri, just about two and a half hours from where I live.

31:44

And he's a heretic. He denies the atonement of Christ. Not just penal substitutionary atonement.

31:50

He denies atonement. And so, this man is not a kind man on top of that.

31:56

I've had an exchange with him, and he's just not very nice. So, Brian Zond is one that I hope repents.

32:03

But for him to praise Eugene Peterson kind of says something about Peterson a little bit.

32:11

This next one. Eugene Peterson. God has used your exceptional writing skills to deepen and revitalize the spiritual lives of many.

32:19

And God has used the fruit of your pen to deeply influence me. Thank you. Well done, good and faithful servant.

32:25

Brian Houston. We mentioned the name last week. Doesn't ring a bell? No, sorry.

32:31

Like I said, Becky doesn't remember names. He's the pastor of Hillsong.

32:36

Oh, oh, okay. Next comment. And you won't know who this next person is, and that's okay.

32:43

I just learned that Eugene Peterson has passed away. His wonderful words and insights have inspired and guided me for most of the past 20 years.

32:50

Not just when I was a pastor, but just a few days ago. A life well lived.

32:55

My brother who just passed loved Eugene as well. Sean King.

33:01

Sean King is. There is no evidence in Sean King's life that this man is even a follower of Jesus.

33:08

I was just on his Twitter today, and he was dropping F words. And yet this man used to be a pastor.

33:14

That's what it says. Yeah. And yet is very praising of Eugene Peterson. Would you expect any of these guys?

33:20

Brian Zahn, Brian Houston, or Sean King to be as praising of a guy like John MacArthur or R .C. Sproul?

33:25

Oh, no. No. Sarah Bessie is another one who is very praising of Peterson.

33:31

She's a feminist. This next comment came from Dan White Jr. And I've had a couple of conversations with Dan White on Twitter before.

33:41

He said, Thank you, Eugene Peterson, for your faithful prophetic resistance to consumerism, success driven,

33:49

McDonaldization of Christianity. Now, the reason why I included that quote is because I don't get

33:54

I don't really get any impression at all that Eugene Peterson was against the McDonaldization of Christianity.

33:59

Unless I'm missing something. Because, I mean, he has one of the best selling books on Christian bookstore shelves.

34:06

See, that's what I was thinking. And that's the message. And Peterson would do pretty much anything to try to defend the selling of that particular publication, including saying one thing and then walking back that comment later so that he could protect the sales of that particular book.

34:26

Not to offend anybody. Yeah, not to offend anybody. Right. But then, even though you have all of those quotes from from all of those not sound teachers, then you got a guy like Andrew Wilson.

34:39

And Wilson's a pretty stand up guy. I've used some of his writing before. I've even recommended some of his articles.

34:45

And he said, I will always remember Eugene Peterson for three adjectives he uses in The Contemplative Pastor, which is a book that Peterson wrote.

34:53

Pastors, he says, are to be, number one, unbusy, number two, subversive, and number three, apocalyptic.

35:00

So countercultural, so wise. Now, not only is it odd, I believe, for Andrew Wilson to be praising of Eugene Peterson.

35:09

I don't agree with that quote. I'm a little dumbfounded.

35:14

What does that even mean? So pastors, he says, are to be unbusy. Okay, I got that. Subversive and apocalyptic.

35:21

First of all, I don't really understand how pastors are supposed to be unbusy. I'm actually quite busy.

35:28

You are quite busy. But maybe just taking, I don't know. You might have to read it in context.

35:35

I guess. I would assume just taking the time out to listen to people and make sure you're available.

35:40

Well, that's part of my busyness. I know. But maybe to appear unbusy for others to approach.

35:48

Very rarely. You know what I mean? Very rarely have I ever told anybody, I'm sorry, I don't have time.

35:54

I know. And even in those situations where I don't have time. Even to me. Sorry, babe,

36:00

I don't have time. Sorry. Like if I ask you to go to the store, do the dishes, fix the laundry.

36:18

Trying to collect my thoughts here. And it's just too comical. Too many things bouncing around in my head when you said that.

36:23

Now, my mind is busy. Even if there is a situation where I don't have time to talk to with this person right now.

36:32

I'm still trying to find somebody who they can visit with. Right. So, my response to them is not,

36:37

I'm sorry, I'm too busy. But it might be something like, so and so would be a really good person to talk to about this.

36:44

And then putting the two of them together so that they can talk about that. Right. So, even in those situations where I don't have time to be able to.

36:51

I'm still not saying, hey, I'm too busy. Right. So, I don't really. You make the connection. Right. I still don't understand what that's supposed to mean.

36:58

So, yeah, like you said, in context. Yeah. But then the next one really doesn't even make sense. What is subversive?

37:04

A pastor is supposed to be subversive. Subversive means to undermine the power and authority of an established institution.

37:11

Say what now? Where is it written that a pastor's responsibility is to undermine the authority of some sort of established institution?

37:24

On the contrary, one of the pastor's responsibilities is to uphold. That's what

37:29

I was going to say. An established institution. And that's the church. And everything that has been written about the church.

37:36

Yeah. From the Bible. Right. According to what Christ has said the church is supposed to be. That's one of the pastor's responsibilities.

37:42

So, again, unless in context it's supposed to be some sort of countercultural thing.

37:48

I don't know. But even the church itself is a culture. Yeah. So. I don't know. Yeah. Again, I don't even agree with the quote.

37:58

Though I have loved Wilson. I've even had some exchanges with him in the past. I just don't agree with that quote that he mentioned.

38:04

Although he said that a pastor is supposed to be apocalyptic. Now, if you take the definition of apocalyptic at heart,

38:12

I agree with that. Okay. To be apocalyptic means to prophesy the destruction of the world. Oh, okay.

38:17

Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. So, one out of three. Yeah. Yeah. A pastor absolutely should say, hey, this world is about to be judged and all sinners will be judged along with it.

38:31

So, repent. But here's the thing. I have never read anything from Eugene Peterson saying that.

38:38

And it always seemed to me in all the passages that I would read in the message that he would soften that message even when it came from Christ.

38:45

Kevin de Young, who's a wonderful teacher, and we have some of Kevin de Young's books at our church.

38:51

Yeah. I've recommended his books. I've quoted him in sermons before. Kevin de Young mentioned kind of an anecdote from Peterson.

38:58

It was something that Peterson shared either in an article or a book or something like that. Okay. And so, Kevin de

39:04

Young shared that on his page on the Gospel Coalition. Okay. But de

39:09

Young wasn't praising of Peterson's legacy. He was just sharing an anecdote, a story that Peterson had shared.

39:15

Okay. So, some have said, why is Kevin de Young praising Peterson? Well, he didn't.

39:21

De Young wasn't praising of Eugene's legacy. He was just sharing a story that Peterson shared. However, Tim Challies was kind of praising of Eugene Peterson.

39:31

Okay. And Challies is a real solid teacher. Yeah. And I love

39:36

Challies' stuff. I think I've even linked to his blog from our website. So, if you go to www .utt

39:42

.com, you can get to Challies .com through our website. So, it's odd that he was rather praising of Peterson.

39:51

So, where do we see an example of Peterson saying one thing and then changing his mind and saying something different?

39:59

Well, the most notable example happened just last year when Jonathan Merritt had published an article through Religion News Service in July.

40:10

And he had asked Eugene Peterson that if he was still pastor.

40:15

And again, at this time, Peterson had not been a pastor for 25 years. But Merritt had asked Peterson, if you were still a pastor, would you conduct a same -sex marriage?

40:24

And Peterson said, yes. One word, he said, yes. He would officiate as a pastor a same -sex marriage.

40:32

The very next day, Peterson walked that comment back. And he changed his mind and said that he would not do that.

40:41

Now, this was right when the whole firestorm had just kind of started calming down after Jen Hatmaker had said to the same person,

40:49

Jonathan Merritt, had said to Merritt that she believed same -sex marriages were holy.

40:55

And after that, Lifeway responded by pulling all of Hatmaker's books off of their shelf.

41:01

I remember that. So then what ended up happening after Eugene Peterson said this in this article, again to the same author,

41:09

Jonathan Merritt, there was now this talk that Lifeway was going to pull the message off of their shelves.

41:15

Yeah. Take it back. Take it back. Right. The biggest Christian bookstore chain in the country was going to withdraw the message and no longer sell it.

41:24

So Peterson changed his mind. And here was the response that he made a day later.

41:31

Recently, a reporter asked me whether my personal opinions about homosexuality and same -sex marriage have changed over the years.

41:38

I presume I was asked this question because of my former career as a pastor in the PCUSA, which recently affirmed homosexuality and began allowing its clergy to perform same -sex weddings.

41:49

Having retired from the pastorate more than 25 years ago, I acknowledged to the reporter that I haven't had a lot of experience with it.

41:57

To clarify, I affirm a biblical view of marriage. One man to one woman.

42:03

I affirm a biblical view of everything. Now, in the article that was published in Christianity Today following up all of this, they went on to say,

42:13

RNS columnist Jonathan Merritt asked Peterson, if you were pastoring today and a gay couple in your church who were

42:19

Christians of good faith asked you to perform their same -sex wedding ceremony, is that something you would do?

42:26

And Peterson had responded with one word, yes. So, I mean, you hear the way Jonathan presents that.

42:32

If a gay couple in your church who were Christians of good faith, no, they wouldn't be. They would not be

42:38

Christians of good faith if they were a gay couple. Right. And so he presents that question to Peterson, who just gave a one -word response, yes.

42:46

The article goes on, the interview was published Wednesday under this headline, best -selling author Eugene Peterson changes his mind on gay marriage.

42:54

In his retraction, the 84 -year -old said, so yeah, he was 85 when he died. Yeah. The 84 -year -old said that in nearly three decades as a pastor and in the years since,

43:04

I've never performed a same -sex wedding. Well, of course not. It was illegal when he was a pastor. Right. That wasn't even a thing.

43:11

I've never been asked, and frankly, I hope I never am asked. This reporter, however, asked a hypothetical question.

43:18

If I were pastoring today and if a gay couple were Christians of good faith and if they had asked me to perform their wedding ceremony, if, if, if.

43:26

Pastors don't have the luxury of indulging in hypotheticals, said Peterson. And to be honest, no is not a word

43:32

I typically use. That's a really odd response. It's almost like saying, see, I'm not responsible for saying yes.

43:39

Because it was just a hypothetical. Yeah. Peterson went on to state that because of the biblical view of marriage, he would not marry a same -sex couple.

43:49

And that yes is an automatic response for him. Yeah, yes was his automatic response.

43:55

Right. So then Peterson goes on to say, when put on the spot by this particular interviewer,

44:00

I said yes in the moment, but on further reflection and prayer, you haven't reflected on this issue on this subject before, but on further reflection and prayer,

44:13

I would like to retract that. That's not something I would do out of respect to the congregation, the larger church body and the historic biblical

44:20

Christian view and teaching on marriage. That said, I would still love such a couple as their pastor.

44:28

They'd be welcoming at my table along with everybody else. So that just kind of shows the ambiguity on Eugene Peterson's views on sin and homosexuality, that he would so easily say yes to that question.

44:47

But then, and it wasn't until the message was threatened to be pulled off of bookstore shelves, that he then comes back the next day and said, oh, you know what?

44:55

I didn't mean that. I didn't mean that. Yeah. It was a hypothetical. It was if, if, if, and pastors don't have the luxury of hypotheticals.

45:02

Yeah. I present hypotheticals all the time. Yes, you do. We just went through hypotheticals here in this broadcast, talking about if you were in this situation with bullying and something like that.

45:13

Yeah. All the time. Pastors don't have the luxury of hypotheticals. What is that? That doesn't even make sense.

45:20

So there's an example of, you can find Peterson saying one thing about an issue and then saying something else about an issue.

45:27

The very next day. Yeah. Or he seemed to be very clear with his yes, but a lot muddier with his, let me change my mind on that.

45:36

Backpedaling always is. Backpedal a little bit. Yeah. And again, the biggest problem with Peterson's theology is really the message.

45:45

And we're coming close to the close on our broadcast here. I thought I was going to spend more time on this. Oh, yeah.

45:51

But anyway, here you get an idea. Let me read to you Ephesians chapter two, verses one through 10 from the

45:58

English standard version. This is the version that I use on the podcast. All right. So you're hearing a good, solid, solid, reliable Bible translation.

46:07

Okay. Ephesians two, one through 10 and you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked following the course of this world, following the

46:18

Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind.

46:30

And we're by nature, children of wrath like the rest of mankind, but God being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us.

46:41

Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace.

46:46

You have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus so that in the coming ages, he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ.

47:01

Jesus for by grace, you have been saved through faith and this is not your own doing.

47:06

It is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which

47:17

God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So there you go.

47:23

That's Ephesians two verses one through 10 in a reliable Bible translation. All right.

47:29

Here is what Ephesians two one through 10 says in the message. Okay. It wasn't so long ago that you were mired in that old stagnant life of sin.

47:39

You let the world, which doesn't know the first thing about living, tell you how to live. You filled your lungs with polluted unbelief and then exhaled disobedience.

47:50

We all did it. All of us doing what we felt like doing when we felt like doing it, all of us in the same boat.

47:57

It's a wonder God didn't lose his temper and do away with the whole lot of us. Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, he embraced us.

48:07

He took our sin dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on his own with no help from us.

48:14

Then he picked us up and set us down in the highest heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah.

48:20

Now God has us where he wants us with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ.

48:30

Jesus saving is all his idea and all his work. All we do is trust him enough to let him do it.

48:38

It's God's gift from start to finish. We don't play the major role. If we did, we'd probably go around bragging that we'd done the whole thing.

48:49

No, we neither make nor save ourselves. God does both the making and the saving.

48:56

He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work. He does the good work.

49:02

He has gotten ready for us to do work. We had better be doing. Did that sound even remotely like all

49:11

I just read there was

49:16

Eugene Peterson's take on Ephesians two verses one through ten. Wow. That's just his take.

49:22

That is not even close to what the original manuscripts said.

49:31

No. And what you get when you read the new American standard or the English standard version is a translation of the

49:38

Bible that is as close in English to the original Greek that we can get. But what you get when you read

49:45

Ephesians two verses one through ten is you get Eugene Peterson's opinion of that. Now, it's said that Peterson actually went back to the original

49:54

Greek to translate the message Bible, but I don't think it matters whether he went to the

50:01

Greek or if he just picked up English translations and came up with that. It's still so far off.

50:07

It is completely unreliable. He missed the boat. Totally. Now, again, there may be a quote somewhere and I couldn't find it, but I want to say

50:18

I remembered him saying it or reading it somewhere. There may be a quote of Peterson saying that he never intended the message to be that, but that's exactly what it is.

50:26

And that's what it's presented as. Right. When you go to BibleGateway .com, which was where I read this from, it's listed in there as a

50:34

Bible translation. When you go to Walmart, when you go to a bookstore or a

50:40

Christian bookstore, the message is a Bible. That's the way that they are selling it.

50:46

It is a false translation. It is not the word of God. It's the word of Eugene Peterson.

50:52

And you saw all kinds of wonky stuff in there. Like, for example, all we do is trust him enough to let him do it.

51:00

Yeah, that was a little awkward. So you were dead in your sins, in your trespasses, but somehow you just trusted

51:07

God enough to let him save you just enough. It is by grace.

51:13

You are saved through faith. And this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, right?

51:19

Not a result of works so that no man may boast. That is exactly what the scripture says, which

51:25

Peterson altered and he changed. And, and again, as a minister, of course, with the extremely liberal

51:33

Presbyterian Church, USA, that has its doctrinal problems in itself. The fact that he was very loose on sin, that he so easily agreed that he would conduct a same sex marriage.

51:46

But then when the, the sales of his book were threatened, then he walked it back again. There's enough there to, to say that Eugene Peterson is a false teacher, not a reliable teacher.

52:00

Now, having said that though, that does not mean that I believe the man is in hell. It's not at all. What I said,

52:05

I would say that. I don't know. And like with Anonymous, I hope that he was repentant, that he had a repentant heart and that he's with the

52:14

Lord in glory. I hope that's the case. Right. And standing before the throne of God, he realizes all that he did and said in his life.

52:22

That was contrary to the word of God, not according to the word of God. See, in that statement where he was apologizing, which wasn't even really an apology, but he was walking back the statement that he made about how he would conduct a same sex marriage.

52:38

He said, I believe in the biblical view of marriage. I affirm the biblical view of everything.

52:45

Right. But really that's not the case. Yeah. He affirms what he interprets to be the biblical view.

52:52

Yes. And that was the way Peterson was. Yeah. At least as far as I know of Peterson and what

52:57

I read of Peterson, articles, quotes, and especially what has come from the message. Right. There were plenty of problems in his doctrine that he should not be heralded as a great theologian or even contributed great things to the

53:10

Christian faith. He did not. Right. He did far more harm than he did good. So biblical etiquette as far as handling somebody's death like that, what would you say?

53:21

You don't give him a tribute. Yeah. Not a tribute in the sense that, Hey, he was a great teacher and we're all mourning his death.

53:28

You don't need to speak higher of the person than what they were. It's like going back to the whole, don't speak ill of the dead kind of mentality.

53:37

People have taken that to the extreme of, well, I'm not going to speak anything bad about them. So they were a great person.

53:43

You know what I mean? Like that's, that's too much. In these kinds of situations, I'm actually in favor of making comments such as the ones that we're making here because Eugene Peterson's on everybody's lips right now.

53:53

He just died this past week. So people are talking about him. Articles are now coming out about him.

53:59

Right. So this is being shared at the same time that everybody is printing and publishing things related to Eugene Peterson.

54:05

And it is necessary for people to understand that this man's teaching had way more problems than it had good things.

54:12

And just notice the people who are praising him, men who are outright heretics and false teachers are praising

54:19

Eugene Peterson as being some great Herald of Christianity. And that enough should be raising some red flags on like, okay, why do these guys like him?

54:30

They bash on every other solid teacher, but suddenly Eugene Peterson is this great guy that, that should be a concerning thing in itself.

54:39

But yeah, some of the sound guys that are praising of Peterson, I can't speak for them. I don't really know why.

54:44

I mean, I hate to say anything bad about anybody anyway. Sure. So, I mean, I don't want to give them more credit than what is due.

54:54

Does that make sense? Give them too much credit. Yeah. Give them too much credit because that's not my intent either.

55:00

I don't want to lead people astray. Yeah. Going that direction. I get the, the want, you don't want to say anything negative.

55:08

Honestly, honestly, we should be able to speak of a person in their death the same way that we would speak of them in their life.

55:15

Yep. And I would be just as cautionary regarding Peterson when he was alive, as I would be right now.

55:23

There's no difference. Right. So, so don't, don't speak ill of a person when they're alive.

55:28

Don't speak ill of them when they're dead. Right. And be consistent. Always point back to the word of God. Here's what the word of God says, and this is what we should follow.

55:37

Did this man teach that in his lifetime? There were some things that Peterson said that were very solid, but what he's going to be remembered for was not.

55:46

Right. And so that's why as a teacher, he should be avoided, not used. Let's conclude with prayer.

55:52

Yes, let's. Our great God and savior. We thank you for a medium such as this, that we could use this for your glory, be able to proclaim your truth, what your word says, and that your word is what brings dead men to life.

56:08

We were dead in our sins and transgressions, and it was the message of your gospel that was spoken to us that brought us out of death and into new life in Christ.

56:18

So help us to walk in this way, following after our savior and following his example, as we are being made more and more into the image of Christ, going through suffering and trials and tribulations, help us to always give glory to God, who means all things, who is working all things together for our good and for your glory.

56:42

I thank you for Deborah's question. And I pray that if there was something very personal about that question, what does the

56:47

Bible say about bullies, that you would give her a peace in her heart and give her wisdom and knowing how to respond to the situations that she might be facing on a daily basis.

56:57

We pray for Eugene Peterson's family, as they are mourning the loss of a friend and a relative that you would give them a peace in their heart that can only come through the true words that we find in the word of God.

57:12

We pray for those who have been influenced by Peterson, that they would recognize that this man was not wholly devoted to the sound teaching of the word of God.

57:23

And they would try to find more sound teachers that would point them to Christ. Indeed, it seems by all accounts that Peterson was a very kind man, but kindness is not what gets a person into heaven.

57:35

None of us are good. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. And so it is only by faith in Jesus Christ that we are forgiven our sins and given eternal life.

57:46

And I pray that Peterson knew that truth before he died and shared that with others as well, that they may know the truth and live.

57:54

Continue to keep us steadfast in your word and according to the ways that are written in it for us to live as Christians in this world.

58:02

Help us to not become stained by the world, but to be missionaries in this world.

58:09

And we pray this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. And happy birthday to Aria.

58:16

Our daughter Aria turns four. Four. On Sunday, right?

58:23

Sunday is her birthday. Yay! What? Oh silently, oh silently.

59:34

Really? How do you say that? Serenade me?

59:40

Serenade? Serenade me. With Oh Little Town of Bethlehem? Sure. I enjoy your singing.

59:48

All right. Not a really serenading, huh? Not really a couples song.

59:55

Give me a concert. Give me a G. Give me a

01:00:00

A. Give me a B. Give me an E. Those are all music notes too, by the way.

01:00:08

You can play my name on a piano. You can't play mine. Give me a B. Give me an