February 14, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Andrew Rappaport and Jeffrey Rice

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen You Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida Champaign County, Illinois and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming to iron sharpens iron radio My name is

Eric Nielsen I'm sitting in once again for Chris Arnzen and this is day five of interviews from recent conferences

Today we have two interviews from the recent g3 conference in January of 2020 and Today we are interviewing our immediate neighbors.

I aren't sharpens iron radio had a exhibitors booth immediately to our left was

Andrew Rappaport of striving for eternity ministries and then directly across from us with a stack of beautiful leather bound

Bibles Was Jeffrey Rice of post tenobras luxe Bible rebinding

We have interviews from both Andrew and Jeffrey today Let's begin by listening to Chris's conversation when

Andrew Rappaport stopped by the iron sharpens iron radio booth Here I am again on site at the g3 conference 2020 at the

Georgia International Convention Center And I am with Andrew Rappaport dear friend of mine who is the founder of striving for eternity ministries

And it's always a pleasure to have you on iron sharpens iron radio Andrew Rappaport Well, Chris, it is always a pleasure to be with you whether on the radio or in person, which this time we get that both that's right, and It's amazing.

You know people often make jokes about how many people I know and how many people they've seen me photographed with and they'll make the

All too often regurgitated joke about seeing me photographed with the Pope and you know that kind of a thing

But you I think maybe surpassed me. It's amazing how many people know you and Have been involved in some fashion with striving for eternity ministries.

How long has that ministry been in existence? Hmm, we I guess incorporated.

I'm trying to think now, right? I Think 2007 2010 somewhere in that time frame

Yeah, so and why don't you give a brief overview for our listeners who have not yet heard you on My program or have not yet heard your podcast.

Tell them about striving for eternity Well, it's driving attorney is discipleship ministry. And so we find it a lot of different ways to disciple we have an online

Academy we have videos on YouTube for free. That's how we make our money But No, we we we offer classes out there

We've actually the neat thing with the classes being on YouTube is that we've been able to train pastors in China where They're getting training.

All they need is English and Internet. And so we've been able to train them and they've contacted us

But it's you know, they're always having to be careful what they say But but we've we've been able to train people around the world with it and that was never the plan

We go into churches and do seminars so that's really what we tried to do is to encourage a local church we have a

Very different model than most ministries most ministries want to be where they have the big platform lots of people lots of money

We go to the churches that have less than a hundred people on purpose We target those churches because those are churches that don't have the encouragement they're the ones who don't have the ability to bring people in to have speak and It's it's kind of like your pastors lunch that you do where you know guys get there they get they get books they get you know

Good teaching They need that Rejuvenation. Well, there's churches that need that to churches need, you know to be encouraged to be taught to be having being able to have a weekend where people come in and do

Training hands -on training workshops, but then gets them excited about doing ministry and to serve the local church

And so we have our you know, we have monthly donors that support us so we can go into churches I can't afford to have us come in.

Okay, we can still come in. We've we can go to any church. We don't care The smallest group that I spoke to is five people and I was perfectly found that the pastor was all apologetic

He wanted to cancel. Why are you gonna cancel you have at least five people, you know They end up is five to twelve people that showed up for their their conference that they tried to do great

Now what would what would fall under the umbrella of discipleship when you describe yourself as a discipleship ministry specifically, what would that entail when you are

Assisting brothers in Christ, especially as you were saying in these smaller groups to conduct and Live out the

Christian faith. Well, we tried doing a lot of different ways one is through the

Academy It's that's more individual they can they can get the training get our the syllabuses that could be done also in a church setting

We have a bunch of churches where they take the syllabuses They use the syllabuses in like a Sunday school and then they they'll play the videos or some people will ask

Hey, can I just teach this material and use the syllabuses fine? So one thing we do is provide materials the other through seminars

The other you mentioned my podcast that's been a something new we we've seen how a change from YouTube to Podcasting has occurred people don't watch as much on The YouTube when they can listen to the same content in a podcast to the podcast they take with them anywhere

And so we did was instead of just teaching through podcasts, which we do which is another means of discipling

We actually are discipling other podcasters So what we've done is we get we have the

Christian podcast community and what we do with that is we're trying to help podcasters to improve their content and their quality and That helps them with the audience that they have but what we're looking to do is to train them to disciple them in in an area

Both in the audio area, but also in good theology You know not trying to and you'll understand as you've been in ministry long enough

Where you see people that start to get a platform then everything becomes about the platform and that that's a mistake

Because we should be about Christ not about the self -promotion and things like that And that's what we try to teach people that are starting to get into ministry and do things like that So we have a lot of different levels that we try to do the discipling

Some is providing materials for churches. Some is more hands -on We do some conferences that we try to do where we'll train people how to evangelize and then we immediately take them out on the street to do it and I'm assuming that your training starts anywhere from Your basic Christianity 101 your milk of the word all the way into the deeper meat of the word the the

When you are really plumbing the depths of the unsearchable riches of Scripture to Learn more and more about those things that perhaps are commonly avoided in your average

Evangelical church, so I'm assuming that there is a wide range of Training being accomplished here.

Yeah, I mean we can start with things we have a one of our classes on how to disciple

So to disciple others, which is so needed in the churches. That's basic. That's one -on -one stuff

We work through a book that we have that starts off with things like okay. What's salvation? What's prayer?

What's the Bible? I mean very basic things, but then it gets into what's what does it mean to be holy? What does it mean to deal with temptations now?

You're getting into a little bit more depth when you're working on one -on -one with someone, but then we go up.

We'll have you know evangelism Well, that's you know evangelism son every Christian could do you get we get into the apologetics

That's something that not every Christian is gonna do but you know it's gonna work a little higher then one of the things

I'm working on now is I'm working on two programs that we're gonna try to do as a both as a course, but we also do as a seminar one on logic and one on Textual criticism or you know basically getting back to what the original text meant super needed because You know anytime you go evangelizing the first thing that comes up is well

You can't trust the Bible Bible's been edited it's been copied. It's you know whatever things a bit all fits under that classification and The reason is because a guy

Bart Ehrman who has been able to Dumb things down in a sense of textual criticism to make it easy to understand the way he wants everyone to understand it

But he's he's not a believer And he's trying to convince everyone that we can't know what the original Bible actually an apostate because he was

Professing believer for quite a while yeah, and so he's got all the credentials But what people don't know is when he writes for scholarly works versus masses.

He writes very differently You know he's he's gonna be honest when he writes scholarly works when he writes for the masses you'll see he'll get have some scholarly things in there, and then he just gives his own opinion and People don't realize that that's just his opinion this the data doesn't back that up so we want to train people to understand and we think that there is a way that we can make that simple to understand and In a way that people can take that onto his streets when evangelizing and say no you're wrong the

Bible is 99 .98 % accurate Yes, that's better than CNN any day of the week

Yeah, it's interesting that Because of part airmen's

Christian background and I'm assuming he is still

Identifying himself as an agnostic and not an atheist right as far as I know yes, yeah, because he

Doesn't want to claim to have all knowledge which somebody who is a hardcore atheist would have to claim But because of his not only knowledge of Christianity and church history and Because he believes unlike some others who are professed atheists or agnostics who deny that Jesus ever existed although I've Come to understand.

That's a very rapidly shrinking number of Atheists because the historical evidence is so overwhelming that he existed even if they want to deny his deity but you can the a naive or Person who is not familiar with Bart Ehrman who sees him in some kind of a

National Geographic special or some history channel Special that might even be involving

Jesus or Christianity they might be sitting back thinking they are listening to a Christian Historian because he is speaking

As one who believes that Jesus existed, and they don't even realize this is somebody that denies

Everything that the scriptures teach Well at least he he denies that the scriptures are are

God -breathed Yeah, and and here's the thing Bart Ehrman he his book is

New York Times bestseller which really got him on the map was misquoting Jesus and If you're gonna write in New York Times bestseller, you're gonna put your best arguments first Well, here's his best argument for the claim that we cannot know what the original

Bible said he his argument was that some manuscripts refer to Jesus as a carpenter and Others as the son of a carpenter.

I mean that's just like shocking I mean there are so many doctrines based on that right in fact when he had the paperback edition to that book

They wanted him to add an epilogue so he could get some more get people who had the hardcover to buy it again

So in that epilogue in the first printing he had something that was removed by the second printing because they realized how damaging this one quote was to the entire book and that quote is that Bart Ehrman actually said

There is not one single Christian doctrine affected by any of these textual variances boom

Okay, this is like, you know, there was a another New York Times bestseller. He came out of Islam moved to America professed to be a

Christian Aslan I'm drawing a blank on his last name. He wrote the book zealot and What he ended up doing is he built this whole book trying to say we can't know what the original

Bible said We wouldn't be able to the meaning is all different, but in the introduction He refers he says that we we know that they're the

Gospels all had a base Document called Q that's short for quillum or in the

Greek or sorry in the grit in the German It means source so it's the source document they claim from Mark Matthew and Luke because that's the order they think that it was written and then you have

John many years later and they'll say we'll see John makes Jesus out to be God because it's it's been many years and it got embellished but they say this original document

Q Jesus was human and So this entire book is based off of the teaching of this

Document Q, but in this his introduction he makes the mistake of saying we have no evidence

That Q existed hmm Okay, then everything in your book is is made up of fairy tale.

It's all wishful thinking Because it's not based on what we actually see as evidence

It's not based on what we have before us It's assumed and it's so easy to break this down for people because if you the way they argue it

Bart Ehrman or any of those are gonna argue that you had to have one document that Mark got his information from Then Matthew took what

Mark had he embellishes Luke take what took what they haven't embellished But they all had to have it from one source

So that takes from one source copies to another copies to another copies to another and that argument sounds really good

They say it's like the telephone game except for one problem You could go right now.

We have the Democrat conventions going on You take any newspaper this morning, and they're gonna report on that convention

So you go and you're gonna see the New York Times is gonna have a comment And then you're gonna have the Washington Times in the

New York Post and all of them They're all going to be reporting on that they're gonna have a lot of similarities does that mean they had an original source document

People yes that question people are gonna go no they were I wouldn't they were there. That's right So there's similarities, and there's differences in all those articles because they were eyewitnesses

That's exactly what you expect to see in an eyewitness account, which is exactly what we have in the Gospels We have eyewitness accounts, so we have lots of similarities, but we have differences you might have someone that says hey

Here's here's ten lepers that were healed, but one person only wants to focus on the one leper that came back

Well, that's not a contradiction. That's a difference in focus right. That's why

I have heard from Christian attorneys Who will say that one thing that will immediately look suspicious or false or fake in Regarding those that claim to be eyewitnesses to a crime

Or eyewitnesses in the defense of a criminal on trial is

When they all parrot the exact same story with no difference at all Yeah, you know

I don't know if you know of Jim Wallace. He goes by as an author Yes, J. Warner Wallace and Jim Jim will say when he was a he was a 20 -year

You know homicide detective who did cold cases and he'll tell people First thing the very first thing he does he gets to a crime scene is he you know they call him up He says okay separate the witnesses

I don't want them talking because if they start talking they all sync up their story And you you end up not being able to find out what actually happened then he said you need to have those

Differences, but if you if everything's the same It's probably a manufactured story, and that's exactly what they're arguing for with the with the

Gospels there should all be complete Similarity with all four of them, but if there was and that would be manufactured the very thing they claim it is

They say it is manufactured because there's these similarities, but we also have the differences Well the differences are what help us understand that it is eyewitness testimony

Because it's it's more than just having some differences in some similarity. It's how they're different right because they're not just You have for example the one

I gave an account where someone focuses on ten Ten people they're healed well

He's focusing on the healing aspect of it where you have another author who's not focusing on the healing

He's focusing on the reaction of the one that returned Well you're gonna have that So I think that this it is easy for people to understand these things we just have to find ways to break it down So that it doesn't stay at the ivory towers.

It doesn't stay in the seminary levels textual criticism is a difficult area But it doesn't have to remain that way

This is you know you you have James White on here a lot you're friends with him very much

Or and and you you know that if you listen to his programs he deals with this stuff why

I think so many people are Attracted to his dividing line. It's because he takes these complex things

Breaks it down simple to understand So that people that don't have a background in Greek can understand some textual criticism

That's a unique ability I think those of us who are in the area disciple need to work at is to take

Complex things break it down so that everybody can understand it Yes, and it's interesting you brought up dr.

White because during a debate with Bart Ehrman the aforementioned agnostic textual critic

Dr.. White cornered Bart Ehrman to publicly admit That there are less textual variances in the

New Testament Manuscript evidence than there are for any work of antiquity, and it was like a monumental difference

Oh, yeah, even admittedly by Bart Ehrman. Yeah, I think Dan Wallace says that if you were to if you were to compare it

You'd have enough evidence that would take us from from Earth to the moon Because there's there's that much in manuscript evidence

You think about how much evidence we haven't so close to the writing and here's the reason why this becomes important If we have let's take the

Gospel of Mary Magdalene This has been a recent thing people based the book Da Vinci code was based off of off of this a lot of thought

But the only copy we have just put my leather -bound copy today The only copy we have of that is in French Which means it wasn't back in that we don't have an original back in the time of Mary Magdalene But you have it and because of the fact we know the pages numbers

We know that there's more missing that we actually have that there's so little there But you have one copy and yet you have all this that's been built all these doctrines and theories built off of this

Now if you have one copy, you can't tell what the original said if you have two or three copies

It's still hard to work to get back to the original but when you have 8 ,000 copies

Well, you have a lot you can compare there We have enough copies of the New Testament just in Greek to be able to see where those variances occurred

Because the number of copies but because we have copies that date so back so close to the original writing

Now that we know there was enough time for those editing mistakes to occur another thing that's important in this is to know where they are for example if I gave you a letter and you go off to Italy and I gave it give

Eric a letter He goes to Spain and I go off to Mexico and we have the same letter We make a copy of it and we're all making copies

But in your letter, I was just dyslexic and I misspelled something now You don't want you to hate

I don't want to I'm gonna copy it word -for -word exactly as it is so everywhere that you are is going to have that same spelling mistake, but Everywhere else that doesn't have that what's easy to determine now is to say, okay

This is probably one copy that had a mistake Typo in there and it kept being reproduced and it's just in this area

So that is a really good indicator to say that it's just that that one Family of text that has this and the others are probably correct one

That's how we do this stuff to try to get back to the original meaning and the original text itself yeah, and for those of you that may have had your faith challenged or Had you astonished and shocked and depressed when you hear people like Bart Ehrman Talk about the thousands of variances the vast majority of these variances do involve minor things like punctuation and misspelling and sometimes that is because of the

Material that the scribes were copying the scriptures on and they're not they're not being completely smooth

Paper like we would have today, you know You're talking about animal skins and so forth with with grain in them and an ink reacting in different ways to the the grain and and and how radically

A word or a sentence may appear differently than intended just by One of those tiny punctuation marks or or jots or tittles if you will being misread

Yeah, well, I like what Dan Wallace says He said that you know because Christians were actually the first to start what we would think of as books today

So Dan Wallace goes that that was the only time in history Christians were ahead of the technology curve

Because you know, they really were it was cheaper. It was cheaper to produce They were able to do it and copy because they were concerned with the gospel going out

But let's look at this Bart Ehrman will say that there's four hundred thousand or sometimes five hundred thousand variances

That sounds like a lot especially when you consider there's only a hundred and sixty eight thousand Greek words in the

New Testament So, how could you have? Three four times the number of variances that you do words and it sounds really really impressive

But it's it's really not fair because what he's comparing is all of the words in all of the manuscripts

Compared to the number of words altogether and that's not an apples -to -oranges type of thing Really what he needs to do is compare all the words a hundred sixty eight thousand words in the

New Testament and How many of them of those words actually have textural variances?

Well when you do that, you're at about fifty six hundred Okay, so we start with that you you go there sorry fifty six

Fifty -six thousand so you start with that now Seventy -five percent of them as you mentioned punctuation spelling easy to get back to the original punctuation wasn't in the original anyway

Okay, there was no punctuation in the original manuscripts, so That's something you have that shouldn't even be counted actually

But seventy five percent fit in that category so we can get back to the original because they're spelling errors

We fix the spelling we fix the punctuation. We're done So those are not a concern You then you end up looking at this in two categories

Can we get back to the original and that's going to be a topic called viability and is the meaning changed?

So the only category we really care about because if we can if we can get back to the original text

Then it doesn't matter What the meaning if the meaning changes in this one versus that one because we can get back to the the original done if the meaning changes and And it we can't get back to the original it becomes an issue because now we we don't know what it actually said

This is where this the son of a carpenter versus carpenter comes in we can't get back to the original

We don't know the meaning the meaning actually changed When you look at that the the number that most people will use is 1 %

Okay, so we're now at maybe fifty six hundred right now of that though the more conservative number

Maybe 1 % but the more realistic number is one -fifth of 1 % So when you start to break this down you realize we're at at 99 .98

% accuracy that's where we give that get that number from that of things where the meaning changes and We can't get back to the original.

It's only two point two percent That's very small. And so when we realize not a single doctrine is affected by that.

Nothing is changing in the doctrine It's not like you're seeing this where Jesus is

God or he's not God There's no text that says he's not God You don't have that occurring and that would be a major issue

But you don't have that you have it in things of whether he's a carpenter or not or whether a woman came to him that They put brought before Jesus who committed adultery or not or whether the ending of Mark You know 16 is there

But none of those things affect any Christian doctrine, okay, maybe if you're a snake handler it might ha but So as far as your experiences as a parachurch ministry a leader and disciple er and having written and Vocally Declared and taught the

Word of God and various venues What are the hugest?

Most serious problems in your opinion that you experience in your average run -of -the -mill evangelical church at large

I Would say probably the biggest is that people don't know how to interpret the Bible. I think if people if churches taught their congregation how to interpret the

Bible No one would stand for Joel steam Creflo dollar

Benny Hinn You wouldn't have that because they would look at what these guys are saying compare it to Scripture and say foul

No, you're not you're taking that out of context No, you're interpreting the

Difficult passage or an easy passage by a difficult passage those that would be wrong. You don't do those things

I mean, this is the problem that you end up seeing with people is that they don't know how to interpret So what they typically do is they come to the

Bible and you'll see this in a lot of churches unfortunately, they have these small group studies a Show your ignorance study where everyone shows up and shows how ignorant they are and what the

Bible actually says because they open the Bible So what do you think this passage means to you? Quite frankly,

I don't care what it means to you. I don't care what it means to me I care what it means to God who wrote it and what he intended to mean by it.

That's what I want to know That's what we need to teach. So what you end up seeing is that people don't know how to handle the

Word of God and If they did we wouldn't have a lot of the stuff that you see on the radios and on the

TVs so I would think that that's a major issue, but that leads into so why don't people teach the

Word of God and How to interpret it for a very simple reason they don't believe the Bible is sufficient

They don't believe that you can look to Scripture and get answers No, we need counseling or we need social justice or we need we need some from the culture to inform us

About the Bible like God isn't enough like God can't handle it the the one who created he he just spoke the entirety of creation into existence and Yet he can't communicate to us in a way that we can understand and live out our life

I mean we must be insane to think that he couldn't do that That's that's a simple thing compared to the creation of the universe out of nothing

Right, but so many churches think they have to go to an appeal to the world We have to interrupt this interview for a moment to take a break and hear a word from our sponsors

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My name is Eric Nielsen. We are hearing conference interviews from the g3 2020 conference today and We're continuing to listen to an interview that Chris Arnson had with Andrew Rappaport of striving for eternity ministries

Well, one of the things that I've heard From professing

Christians and some that I would say are genuine brothers and sisters Who speak in error is

That they are It's obvious. They are reacting overreacting to the truth

That there are those amongst us who are so arrogant and So proud of their own knowledge and Have a cultic mindset

Where they would condemn as either being lost Moronic or both anybody that disagrees with them on nearly anything

They overreact to that reality and They have developed an idea that God has many different servants

Who focus on one aspect of truth and may not necessarily pay any attention to other?

Important elements in the Bible and I've heard even Joel Osteen defend himself

Without mocking or without intending to insult Others that would

Guided by the whole Council of God Declare repentance and and focus on the fact that that one must repent of their sin and That a minute that the grace is not an amazing thing unless you understand what you've been delivered from and so on Joel Osteen will say well my goal in life my mission and my gifts

I'm paraphrasing of course is to teach things that build people up that comfort them that excite them that Remove their their cowardice their self -doubt and so on and Have them think positively about themselves.

So This false teaching that you have these compartmentalized servants of Christ who only focus on one aspect of the

Bible, and I'm not saying that Anything that Joel Osteen emphasizes in his teaching our aspects of the

Bible although there I mean, I'm sure that a broken clock is right twice a day But The the key issue here is

We must all Be discipled to consider the whole

Council of God when we are Evangelizing when we are defending truth and exposing error whether that be in a formal evangelistic setting in a church or open -air preaching or just Common discussions and friendships and family member with family members

Where you are You are excited about Your one and only hope for eternal life, and you do not want to hide that from those whom you care about so Isn't this one of the main issues that is a problem is this?

avoidance of Viewing the whole Council of God as something vitally important. Well, it is here's a real simple thing

If you take Joel Osteen and his message to Iran to the

Christians there does it preach well I Mean is he is he gonna be able to preach the same message.

He does here in America and comfortable Christianity America Over there in Iran. No he's no one's gonna even give him the light of day.

Why because it's not gonna work Preaching a comfortable Christianity in a place where people are dying for their faith doesn't work

They need the rest of that Bible that teaches them how to persevere He doesn't teach about perseverance because he knows nothing of it.

He's he's living off the hog milking the poor And that's the problem

You know now that's why he doesn't want to teach the whole Council God He reminds me of the the the slavers in in Europe and then in America where they they basically had their own

Bible They didn't they'd read things in the Bible and like an exodus and it goes Kidnapping you're not allowed to kidnap people.

Oh, let's just take that out like we can't we can't have that They took everything out that would would say anything about Things that they were doing wrong, and they called it the slave

Bible And it was a Bible that was designed to basically justify the slavers

Well, that's exactly what Joel Steen and his ilk do They just take they just ignore the parts of the

Bible that they don't like that condemn them to justify what they're doing So the issue is okay, so you have your slave

Bible But then there's the real Bible and that real Bible says what you're doing is wrong You need to repent and you need to stop doing that That's the important issue they skip that which they need most because of their pride they skip what they need most and Say we're just gonna focus on these other things and yet They're gonna be accountable to God and even worse

They're gonna be accountable to every person that sat under their teaching and believe them

Because those people unless they actually dig into the Bible They're not getting that which is missing and it's missing because some teachers prideful and doesn't want you to know he's an error

He's taken thousands and millions of people to hell I Wouldn't want to be him on Judgment Day for sure he may he may have the largest platform in quote -unquote

Christianity But that platform isn't gonna do him anything on Judgment Day One of the things

I've noticed that false teachers commonly do Not always because there are different kinds of false teachers there are false teachers in rigid and legalistic cults that make everybody tremble in terror and You know the only way that you could possibly ever

Enter into a better existence after you die is to be in full obedience and submission to the cult leader

Our leaders and their specific teachings, but then you have on the other end of the spectrum the aforementioned

Joel Osteen and many others that we could mention, but as far as the the end of the spectrum that would include

Joel Osteen and many of the false charismatic teachers that I could think of Rodney Howard Brown comes to mind immediately for a reason.

I will tell you in a moment And let me just quick give the caveat that I don't include all charismatics in this description that I have brethren in Christ Who are dear friends who are biblically solid in many ways?

I just have a serious disagreement with them over the signed yes but When you hear a teacher

Especially if you see that he is Either see or know that he is speaking to huge crowds of people

When those people in that audience are all being being spoken to as if they are

Christians and they are saved there's something really wrong with that because You should not

I even told this to Paul Washer in a recent interview I had with him my first Interview with him and only one so far, but I said to him.

I don't want you to take this as an insult and he didn't Well, I said I have never heard you speak

Or preach where I feel where I feel completely comfortable throughout the entirety of your message

I Said to him I know that you always direct people to the

God of perfect peace To the Savior the merciful

Lamb of God Who take away the sins of the world you always?

Ultimately deliver us there in his arms but at the same time you drive us to self -examination and that can be a very uncomfortable and sometimes even agonizing and depressing thing and a

Person who is teaching the whole counsel of God Should never always and perpetually have you

Grinning ear to ear with a with a with a sense of satisfaction and Joy At all times and of course

I want to remind our listeners. I'm not saying that you should never have that in fact It the opposite would be true as well that if you were always in a state of Horror especially if you are a

Truly regenerate Christian, and you're always in a state of horror after hearing the word of God accurately preached and taught

There's something wrong there as well But that is not the prevalent error in our in our church today, so don't you think that?

Again we have the importance of the whole counsel of God because There are different responses and reactions that we would go through as average

Christians hearing this word There are times when we should Be grieving over our lives in the way that we've conducted them yeah,

I mean you Mentioned Paul Washer because a couple of us last night We're talking and Paul just he has a clarity to things we're talking about the issue of social justice and he just Cuts all through all of that.

He's like Maybe like four or five of us there, and he's like he said my brothers. It's about the gospel

You know we this is what we're Christ died for That we would be redeemed.

This is the focus not not on Politics and all that he has a way of just making it clear

I think of what John MacArthur has said many times And we're sitting right next to the booth here grace to you with John MacArthur looking right over you in this big big statue

Of John here, but you know he always says that unbelievers may come to his church But they shouldn't feel comfortable until they get saved and There is an aspect there where it's there's the church has tried to Grow within this church marketing movement that's begun

They want to grow big and the size becomes the important thing and to do that Well, you can't you can't be teaching doctrine.

You can't talk about self -examination you can't talk about things that make people uncomfortable because they're gonna leave so the church has started to cater toward unbelievers and The worst part is try to convince them.

They're believers because they attend church. They walked an aisle They said a prayer whatever it might be, but it's to convince them that they should be comfortable

In fact it doesn't always include church attendance You are you are very often if not most often told

That you are saved the moment you recite a prayer at an altar call so -called That you have eternal life and that you should never doubt that Some some have you sign a card if you ever doubt go back and look at this card this

The prayer didn't save you that the the card didn't save you Walking down the aisle didn't save you baptism didn't save you

Christ saved you if you're saved You know, but you mentioned different types of false teachers.

There's the teachers who are deceiving and There's those that are deceived Paul talks about that You know to Timothy because he's saying yeah, there's there's two

Aspects to it and I think the more concerning thing that we have to be aware of is there are some false teachers

That are sounding conservative I mean we could we could list the name of names But you could think of like a

Francis Chan who came out of a good seminary It was on a good trajectory, but you look at him now and say You're saying that the

Catholics are right on transubstantiation what like you know, this is how far he's for I was

Taken aback Listening to James White dissect that message because I The Lord has privileged me with having met and Benefited from the ministries of men like James White and even the pastors

I've had Throughout my Christian experience after being delivered from the Church of Rome That this kind of church history was basic to me and I'm not saying this again because I think that I am

I'm so highly intelligent and learned and knowledgeable and Well read and or any of that.

I'm just saying as again, I reiterate That thankfully providentially I've had good men as teachers

But I was shocked that Francis Chan having been a graduate of master's seminary

How he could be totally ignorant of the concept? that these ideas of the transubstantiation were

Developments in the the so -called Catholic Church, and there wasn't even a Roman Catholic Church Two thousand years ago.

This was a development where eventually centuries after the true church was established there were these false notions of the papacy and so on but to have somebody that should be knowing better who

Has a huge following enormous following how he is just regurgitating

The nonsensical and Dubious and outright false lie that the church has always believed that the elements of the

Lord's Supper were literally and physically the body and blood of Christ This well, no one wakes up saying

I feel like being a heretic today Right. I mean there's you have two different paths that you see people go into heresy

One You get someone that they they are studying the scriptures And they think they found something new or they they have some light bulb that goes off It doesn't line a hundred percent with scripture, but it makes things clear for them

And so what do they do they start defending that they defend it Till you know over everything else

To the point where they end up defending it to the point where they start denying

Things that are very clear you look at open theism. That's exactly how that's happened open theism came about because people didn't agree with Calvinism So what did they do they start defending

Calvinism? But they would need to be consistent and they keep working out. How do we be consistent with denying

God's sovereignty and salvation? Well, well, we have to start to say that God really didn't know who would be saved that way.

He's not accountable for it Yeah, I think you misspoke. You said defending Calvinism. I'm sorry defending open theism.

Yes. Thank you That's why they Very often call themselves consistent

Arminians. Well, I think that's more what we would call them. I don't know I've heard

I've heard that. Oh, really? Because it is that it would be it's it is consistent because what they start to do is they start to deny that God's omniscient

They they end up denying that God's eternal because if he's eternal then everything's the same now

So he's got to know everything so they have to deny those two elements But then they start getting into areas where they're gonna have to start

Just they start rearranging scripture or ignoring scripture that that doesn't fit like all of Romans 9

You just let's ignore that then that's not there Because they have the starting point that they gotta prove this one hobby horse

Thing that they're trying to defend and they get into denying who God is denying the gospel and They're so far afield it's not funny now, that's one aspect to help you become a false teacher.

Another way is Where people get enamored with their platform and their pride gets blown up or puffed up.

I'll probably get myself in trouble Beth Moore clearest example because she's got this big platform and She says oh,

I'm a complementarian Then why do you keep defending egalitarianism, well, why do you say

I'm this but everything in your actions denies that Why do you say that you you stand for conservative

Christianity and yet all the people you endorse our heretics? You see but the reason she's done it is because it's a slow progression

Probably through the influence of publishers and people wanting to get it. Hey, you got it You're looking at the people you're you're impacting.

Well, what does it matter? She's impacting a lot of people falsely or says a couple things that are true.

But in her overall actions She's teaching things that are anti scripture So that becomes a problem, but it happens slowly it always false teachers always occur slowly.

It happens over time with small Small things that they're gonna say. Okay, we can excuse this we can justify this we can do that And what they're doing in each one of those steps is they're getting further and further and further away from God and what his word says and This is the problem with the false teachers because as they go astray they never want to go alone they always want to take others with them and It's worse when you have the platform that like a

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My name is Eric Nielsen and I'm sitting in today for Chris Arnzen we're listening to interviews from the recent 2020 g3 conference this past January and We've been listening to an interview with Andrew Rappaport from striving for eternity ministries

Let's return to that interview. Now. That's one aspect to help you become a false teacher.

Another way is Where people get enamored with their platform and their pride gets blown up or puffed up I'll Probably get myself in trouble

Beth Moore clearest example because she's got this big platform and She says oh,

I'm a complementarian. Then. Why do you keep defending egalitarianism? Well, why do you say

I'm this but everything in your actions denies that? Why do you say that you you stand for conservative

Christianity and yet all the people you endorse our heretics You see but the reason she's done it is because it's a slow progression

Probably through the influence of publishers and people wanting to get it. Hey, you got it You're look at the people you're you're impacting.

But what does it matter? She's impacting a lot of people falsely or says a couple things that are true.

But in her overall actions She's teaching things that are anti scripture So that becomes a problem, but it happens slowly it always false teachers always occur slowly.

It happens over time with small Small things that they're gonna say. Okay, we can excuse this we can justify this we can do that and what they're doing in each one of those steps is they're getting further and further and further away from God and what his word says and This is the problem with the false teachers because as they go astray they never want to go alone

They always want to take others with them and It's worse when you have the platform that like a

Beth Moore has because she stands up there and just can you know? Here's a clear example.

I don't know when we'll you'll air this but I'm on my rap report podcast I basically played clips of Al Mohler.

He's very clear on the issue of homosexuality He has he has a 10 -second clip that I have of him that was the clearest explanation that homosexuality is a deviant sin

It was and he did it in just 10 seconds It's all took him to make it so clear and he argues that there's a

Catholic politician in Canada Who has asked his homosexuality sin, and he says if you're gonna claim to be a

Christian you can't not answer this Well on the podcast I I'm looking at this and saying well

Here's Beth Moore who was asked by over a thousand women signed a petition to get her or an open letter to get her to ask a simple question is homosexuality a sin

And she won't answer it wrong and so the question is if Al Moore Al Mohler thinks that politician who's a

Catholic Should answer that how much more should an SBC speaker?

One who's got books in life way and and you know big promotion Which that's me how much more should

Al Mohler be asking her to answer that you know in fact? What I was talking with Justin Peters about the podcast when he listened to it

He says really the issue is not Whether Al Mohler thinks that a Catholic should answer that question

It's why does Al Mohler not think the Catholic needs to get saved that should be the first concern It's not worrying about the what a

Catholic politician is gonna do with homosexuality the Catholic politician needs to get saved first But you see this is where that you have this you you end up having a big platform

And everyone wants to endorse you and and placate you and so if you're not if you're willing to say that a

Catholic Politician had stands to that question, but you're not willing to say one of your own Has to answer that question well,

I agree with Al Mohler every Christian has to be able to answer the question is Homosexuality a sin and I agree with Al Mohler's argument that it is

I just disagree that he won't call out Beth Moore for doing or for not answering it.

I should say Well it reminds me of the fact that Too many people and I think that all of us

Have in one way or another been guilty of this at least momentarily during some kind of unprepared incident

Where we at the moment are more concerned Over the feelings of the person that we are speaking with than we are over their eternal soul

We would rather Them leave our conversation liking us and Not being offended

We would rather that happen Than prevent them from spending an eternity in torment well this gets us right back to sufficiency of scripture, right?

I mean that we're right back there People want our culture is informing the way people are going to teach the culture says it's all about feelings

It doesn't matter. What's true. It matters about how you feel. It's true. We have we have guys now thinking well

I identify as a girl my biology is all male, but Huh, I'm just different and and they think we should accept that that's a mental illness

That's not normal. That's that's not for the for the atheists that say they have in science

That's not science because of science if we're just chemical reactions if you're a male you're gonna be male

That's the chemicals in your body So you have people that are just saying well. It's all about how we feel that's more important now

You have people that bringing that into the church to say well We shouldn't preach this because people won't feel good

Well, that's nice that people don't feel maybe they're not supposed to feel good Maybe God doesn't want them to feel good

That's the issue. What does God want you see when when we as believers?

We live to an audience of one now You know the phrase for people who preach to an audience one, but we live to an audience of one as well if we are accountable to one being and And we're gonna we're gonna have to give it that account it doesn't matter how someone felt

It matters how God feels that's the only one that matters, and if he doesn't feel good about it Don't do it if you're avoiding things because you might make someone feel uncomfortable, but God says to do it well do it

That part God knows better than you and I God's omniscient He knows what we don't know but a lot of people aren't willing to trust them

The even even within reformed circles where people say well, I believe in the sovereignty of God there's a difference between those who believe in the sovereignty of God and Those that live it

Plain people will give lip service. I I believe in God's sovereign Well, well, let's see that live out when tragedy strikes.

Let's see that live out when you're having to Confront someone on something and you don't like confrontation

That's when you're gonna see that lived out because if God calls you to do so if you see in the scripture Oh look at these principles. You know all right.

I got to do that even though. I'm not comfortable with it That's different than saying and you know what I can avoid that He'll just be better without me doing that maybe he won't be

Maybe and this is where you see in churches a lot of times where people will just say well We'll just kind of push it under the rug and and and ignore an issue

You know, you know very well that doesn't help a brother You know very well that when when people come and confront you and say no what you're doing is sin

That actually could be a very necessary thing to bring a person out of error and into spiritual maturity it from error to being on a right path and That's needed but pushing it under the rug actually justifies a person to continue in sin

That's right we Often all too often for the intention of avoiding something uncomfortable or some kind of expedient way of finding peace of mind or happiness in a situation we will not look at the bigger picture and not

Look at what is best for a certain person or a group of people

We want what is immediately going to make them happy because that will make us happy in some way we we we want to spare

Homosexuals from the the Discomfort of being told that their behavior is an abomination that will send them to hell and we would rather Either be so ambiguous in the way that we speak to them

Or actually be comforting to them in some way by using using a slogan re like we all sin

To the point where that person is not motivated to Objectively view what they are doing as wicked and There's no motivation to repent and they wind up perishing in their sins and spending an eternity without Christ and in torment

People think that it is more loving to homosexuals And I'm just speaking of this one sin because it is the most

Celebrated group of people that I Don't even like using that term, but I'll explain in a moment that sin has been

Retranslated into a group of people as if it's an ethnicity or nationality. It's not it's a sin that Certain people are participating it but The The understanding that They are to be treated with more

Tolerance and lenience Than those involved in other sins is

Just mind -boggling because you are not doing what is most loving to them when you treat that sin that way

You're you're giving them more reasons to remain In that sin You know, one of the quotes that I've been most known for is one that's where I've said this

People do not water down the gospel because they care about that person's soul

They water down the gospel because they want to be liked. Mm -hmm. We got to get over ourselves

You see the problem is that what you see and what I mean by that in that quote is we have too many people

That they want that person to like them not Christ They're more concerned with their themselves rather than God and that's where we have the problem because It's God that we're gonna be accountable to it's

God. We need to point people to Not ourselves, but too many people are focused on pointing everyone to themselves and I want to make

I want you to like me so I don't want to say things that might hurt your feelings or get you to avoid me or or get you to To to in nowadays what we have with this issue of homosexuality like Abraham nowadays, it's an issue

Well, if you if you don't agree with me We got to get you fired from your job or we need to shut your business down or whatever

You you must agree with them or else and so it's so now you have the case where you have so many people that are willing to just cut a little corners and And try to compromise.

You know what Joseph when he was sitting in Potiphar's house didn't compromise We know that Potiphar's wife made several advances at him and she she gets over the one chance

Where she gets all the servants away. She has him. What does he do? He runs leaves his jacket behind Yeah, that jacket ends up becoming used against him, right that that coat

But what you see is he doesn't sit there now think about this. He's probably at that age. Many people think 18 20 years old

Think about what we're like as an 18 year old male 20 year old male. Could you have said? Potiphar would never know.

I mean, she's not gonna tell him I can't I mean, she this is my I'm the slave She's I'm them.

You know, this is the master. I just obey you want me to do it? He could have made a thousand excuses to just be it would have been easier to do that But was he more concerned about God or himself?

He's more concerned about God and he landed in jail Now that's the motive we have to have that we have to be motivated by having

God first Not ourselves first and that's what that's what it's the heart of the issue what you're bringing up People in our culture don't want to bring up the issue of homosexuality

Because there is very clear what they want from the culture. They want you to celebrate it

And if you don't celebrate it, they want to come after you Well, then we have to be willing to say if that's what you want you're gonna have to come after us

Because we got to stand for God first. I Don't know if you've ever come to an opinion because it is speculation but I have often been led to the conclusion although I can't say this is with certainty true that Potiphar knew that his wife was lying.

Otherwise, he would have had Joseph executed Well, I'll give you a reason why I would agree with you

When we look into the title that Potiphar have has we actually see that he would have been the chief

Executioner not just a regular executioner, but the head of the executioners How do you think it was for Potiphar to go to work that next day?

Having even even putting the guy in jail In the prison to sit there and say go to work with the claim that this slave of yours

Tried to attack your wife. I mean you you know, I don't see executioners as that kind of guys that go to work and Just lovey -dovey type of things

I mean These are these are gonna be guys that are kind of rough to work with and to go to work and be like oh, yeah You know, yeah some some slave of mine tried to assault my wife

No, the chief executioner would have executed. He would have known exactly how to execute very well, right?

So I think that he believed him now the curious thing that we don't have anywhere in Scripture that I've always wondered is

If Potiphar was still alive when Joseph was released and made the second in the kingdom I would like to know what that conversation was like Joseph going over.

Hey Potiphar. How you doing? Yeah, but I think it would be much like it was with his brothers

His brothers were nervous. And what what do you have his brothers go? Hey Dad said you got to forgive us and he goes am

I God? You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good

That's called the doctrine of concurrence and what you see here is something we have to understand this Kind of can wrap up what we are saying

What you see is God knows better than us in all these factors God can take even an evil thing and turn it for his glory

But often we don't trust God enough to sit there and say, okay, this is something that's wrong

But I got to go confront that well, I'd rather not confront it Well, maybe God wants you to confront that he's gonna use that for his glory

But a lot of times we're gonna shy away because it doesn't makes us uncomfortable We got to get over ourselves

You know Yes, and of course the there is a plausible alternative understanding that it could have been just to the divine mercy of God that prevented that execution, but it just but when you look at it in The human side of Providence.

It seems like an unlikely. Yeah But I want you to now just give our listeners a brief overview of how you can help them what they can expect of striving for eternity ministries and how they can

Contact you to receive those benefits. Sure. I mean the easiest way is go to striving for eternity org

What we have there is we have an Academy a free Academy They can take classes so that they can get a solid education from Scripture We have our

Christian podcast community so they can listen to podcasts if they like teaching that way in audio

The The other thing is they can have us come out There's a way to contact us on the website, or they could just email speaker at striving for eternity org

Have one of us come out to their church do a seminar Do be able to teach and get that church excited to get out there and evangelize

Use apologetics learn to study the Bible something that's going to help that church grow So if they want what

I recommend my book, what do we believe? It's a it's a systematic theology. It's not intimidating.

It's only 200 pages So it's a great book to use in small groups to give a good foundation

But let me close out with this Chris because I know you you don't do this so I will for you

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With Chris's interview with Jeffrey Rice of post tenobras Lux Bible rebinding when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years

His name is Dan, but a few go Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer

But not the type that typically comes to mind Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself

Recently, he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the Bible Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword

Dan also has a master's degree in theology Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states

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That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio

My name is Eric Nielsen and I am sitting in as host for Chris Arnzen today

And we're playing interviews that were done live at the recent g3 conference on -site

This next interview is with our booth neighbor directly across the way Postanobris Lux Bible rebinding was positioned directly across from our booth

Jeffrey Rice is one of our advertisers, of course and it was a tremendous opportunity to get to see the marvelous craftsmanship that Jeffrey does and Chris took the opportunity to sit down and speak with him about how he got started and about his business in Rebinding Bibles.

This is Chris Arnzen again on site at the g3 conference at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta And I'm delighted to have someone on the program whose ads you have heard on iron sharpens iron radio.

You've heard them In the voice of dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries an enthusiastic customer client of Postanobris Lux Bible rebinding

I have the Founder owner and operator of Postanobris Lux Bible rebinding

Jeffrey Rice here with me for an on -site interview And it's great to have you on as a guest for the first time an iron sharpens iron radio.

Yeah, man Thank you so much. I've been listening to you for a long time you're a great voice in my ear from day to day and whenever I noticed that I was right across from you in the booth and I just looked around and see

Quite a few people and I was like God has me around friends They know I was grateful and it's our privilege to sit with you.

Well now amen Well, why don't you tell our listeners exactly what you do? It's fascinating what you do

I don't think that there's a lot of people doing what you do, but You are certainly as James White says in the ad for Postanobris Lux.

You are an artisan and a craftsman and It's just breathtaking to View your work your your

Bibles that you have rebinded Genuine leather Bibles. Why don't you tell our listeners exactly what you do typically from start to finish?

One someone contacts you either saying I would like a Bible that you have bound or that you will

Bind or someone who says my Bible that I treasure is falling apart and I want to rebound

Yeah, so what I I typically do is we have an order form for people to fill out and kind of tells us about their

Bible How big it is and and then they'll walk It has a process that you walk through to pick the leathers like there's so many different options to pick sometimes

It can be a little overwhelming from the the style of leather the colors color of the liner ribbon colors

Stamping like there's so much you can choose whether it's embossing debossing whatever and But but for me, it's a the construction side and the artist side of it

So I want my Bibles to be constructed in a way that when you pick it up You think man this thing will never fall apart

But I also want it to where when you look at it you say man That thing is beautiful, right?

and so, you know I roofed houses for 25 years and I was a master coppersmith like I could form copper around anything and But I've also

I've been an artist. I've always been able to draw paint. I'm an art major myself Yeah, and and I've been able to do those things

I was a tattoo artist for a while and a lot of people that's trying to get into the business They'll ask me, you know, how do

I go by and do it and and I'll ask them and I'll say to them well, you can be good if you're too if you're good at one or two things and No, I what

I said. Well if you're If you've ever worked in construction and you know how to measure, you know how to build things

You can be good at rebinding. I said or if you've ever if you're an artist, I said you can be good at rebinding

I said, but you can't be great So you can only be great if you're good at both and so I instruct them that if you you know, if if you if you're an artist and You're getting into rebinding.

You need a volunteer for your church and build stuff Watch videos learn from someone.

That is a true Craftsman in their trade Even if you have to do it for free if you really want to do this

You need to learn how to build you need to learn how to measure You need to learn these things, you know, even like the skills that come to mind

That a tailor would have yes to me. That's a master upholsterer Absolutely.

Absolutely, and I would tell the construction worker the same thing take art classes. I Said because if you don't you're only gonna be good

You're gonna be good and good it's good, right, you know people you you're gonna make a living you're gonna make bibles, but listen

You're not going to be great. If you want to be great, you need to put the work in and do both

Now, what was it that made you take that leap that that fascinated you?

About the idea of becoming a Bible rebinder. You said you were a contractor an artist

Tattoo artist How did those things lead to you saying I want to get my hand on Bibles and I want to make those things last 500 years with beautiful breathtaking leather covers that people just love to feel and smell and Having their hands as often as they can how did you get that excitement over that specific area of Life of that that career.

Well, I actually feel like that. It just fell into my lap in a way Like I said, I've roofed houses for 25 years.

I woke up one morning to go to work and I passed out and then

I I Got my footing. I stood back stood back up my equilibrium went out again.

I fell out and I started screaming I didn't know what was going on Everything around me was shaking like it was spinning as if someone had picked me up and spun me around and then

I try to walk But but it was worse than that because I would actually black out kind of like you

You know those old school TVs when you would cut the power off It would be black and it would go down into like it was a small little light to that disappeared

I was just literally black out. I didn't know what was going on. My wife took me to the hospital we actually had to call my

Old boss who was a friend of mine to come and pick me up and carry me out because I kept passing out we couldn't afford an ambulance or anything like that and They didn't know what was going on with me

They've never seen anything like that when I would move from one position to another I would just pass out

So so they figured I had positional vertigo and positional vertigo is where if you know

When you would move from one position to another you would get dizzy But they didn't know why

I was passing out well, they started rooting around in my life and realized that I had

PTSD hmm and whenever Is this from involvement in the military or no?

I was kidnapped as a child. Oh wow. Yeah, I had a really rough childhood and Robbed at gunpoint beat up at 14 joined the gang

The next day and just just and this was in what part of the country, Nashville, Tennessee but it was mid 90s late night like it was crazy at this time and Just a bunch of I don't know

I don't know how I got involved but Just wrong place at the wrong time and now with that with it's post -traumatic stress disorder.

Does that involve Flashbacks from those days that would cause you to you know faint and all that kind of thing.

Well, she well so posters Oh, I mean, excuse me pose PTSD So PTSD has this thing called fight -or -flight and so you don't

So like whenever I would get into it with someone like growing up being so violent that I didn't know how to fight

Anymore as a Christian and so when I got to the point where I would have a verbal argument or Like getting into it with my pastor or something like it.

We have a disagreement. So instead of Talking it out and figuring it out. I would just leave the church

Well, you know and I didn't know why this developed to be like it was just becoming normal, you know

I'd argue well, well, he don't see how where I'm coming from He don't know what it's like to be in the streets and stuff like that.

So I would just leave And it was like that was a relationship after relationship because I didn't know how to fight with a woman

You know, so I can't punch her, you know So I would just leave or all my friends or something like that Like like like I didn't know how to be a

Christian and I guess a better way of putting it would be that you didn't have to argue with a woman I Didn't know how to how to be a

Christian and do these things and so I would just leave every time and So that was one of the things about PTSD in order to keep yourself from from hurting someone you just get away from the situation and that was a

And that had been something that haunted my life for a long time and so It just took me some places that I never intended to go and And So the flashback part like like it does have something to do with it like it gives you symptoms like I can remember being 14

And my tongue Would feel like it was swelling In my mouth and like as a car would drive by and I could be blocks away from it

It would hurt my ears. Well, it was one of the signs of having PTSD but anyway, so the the

PTSD like It was so bad That whenever I would get dizzy that it would

It was like influencing the PTSD and then like as I would start to panic my brain didn't know what was going on So it would shut off.

They say your brain has a shut off switch And so when I get dizzy, I start to panic the brain would shut itself off And that's what that's what was causing me to pass out and while it was happening

Did you always know this was connected with your past or no, I did not It is how did you come to learn that that was exactly why this was happening?

Well, the doctor started Rooting into you know asking me questions, and I'm a very open guy, you know,

I don't try to hide anything I was just being honest and telling what was going on.

And so they figured that's what was going on and they put me on some Kind of medicine or whatever, but it had me seeing visions man

Wow, yeah, like it was weird and so I called my doctor and said look man, this is what's going on So they took me off of that.

And so now all I do is I which I take it's called CBD I put a little CBD drop under my tongue and I and my

PTSD is under control I still get dizzy, but I don't pass out so once again in your journey from Having to leave that career where I guess those kind of episodes would be very dangerous if you're up on a roof

How did you Come to the point where you say I want to work with leather and I want to specifically work with Bible rebonding

Well, my doctor saw me fidgeting with my hands. Like I'm always you know fidgeting with my hands and she said that I needed a hobby and I had bought a

Very expensive Bible Skylar. I paid like 250 for it. And as I was looking at it,

I was So man, I can make this My wife didn't believe me at first Like no,

I could make this and so I was like and the doctor said I needed a hobby So I'm gonna sell some stuff and just buy some leather and see what happens.

I mean, I wasn't able to work I felt I didn't feel like a man every time I try to get a job

I I would pass out so I wasn't able to provide for my family well and I just needed something to do and then

I started posting pictures on Facebook and people was like man, can I buy that and And Took off from well,

I didn't take off from there, but that's when I started a business But how did you actually learn how to rebind a

Bible or a book? I don't I wouldn't know how to do that There's very limited videos on the internet

And I kind of think some of the videos hindered me because I was trying to do it like everyone else did but uh when

I really sit back and I remember one day I was just sitting back and I was looking at a

Bible without a cover and I had a piece of leather out and I said, how do I need to go about this? Then I started thinking about roofing.

I needed to come at this as a construction worker And so the same way that I would mark off a roof the same way that I would go about preparing a chimney

That's what I did. Well, I went at it from that angle again. Remember what

I said Now I want someone they'd be able to hold and say man this thing will never fall apart and that didn't happen until I looked at I came at it as a construction worker like this is a no different than a roof or a chimney and And I did it the way that I would do that and not the way other people were doing it

So you've actually developed Unique methods or a unique method.

I would say the way that I'm doing it No one that no one else that's doing rebinding is doing it that way.

Wow, and Well, I know that Our mutual friend.

Dr. James R. White who is one of your happiest clients customers He is a very finicky fussy guy

But he also is a bibliophile and he is also Somebody who

I think has a great discernment When it comes to beauty and aesthetics and certain things and he is just in love obviously

With your work and can't stop raving about it and in fact my friend

Gary DeMar who Has visited your booth was so eager to visit it before even coming here because of what he had seen

As far as your work is concerned I am just so impressed by what

I see I'd like you to Spend a little bit of time to discuss something even more important and that's your salvation testimony if you wouldn't mind

We heard a bit about your background Unfortunately has violent connections and involved as you said kidnapping and involvement in a gang

How did all that? All of those circumstances, how did

God use those things to draw you to himself and eventually save you well When I was 21

It was Yeah, actually 9 -11 when the towers fell. I was 21 years old and That was the

I was outside in the trailer park while I was staying You know and I was playing hacky sack was drinking a beer.

It was probably you know, it was early morning and then people start running out talking about We're being attacked

The world is ending. This is in the Bible type of language and I just thought that was all crazy

And I went there and watch what was going on and that night I picked up a Bible for the first time But it turns out, you know, cuz

I I do have I don't know if I have a learning disability But I'm dyslexic and that right there

You know, like we moved a lot when I was a child I can remember switching school six times in one year.

I just got to the point where I just stopped trying And so I went to pick up and it was a

King James Bible with the pick up to read it, man I could read like three words and I have to skip ten of them babies and then but every day

After that, I picked up the Bible whether it was 30 minutes to an hour and I would attempt to read that Bible and For about five years it took me about five years for I was able to read well but So I started reading the

Bible 9 -11 when the towers fell 2003 I started going to church at a

Southern Baptist Church. I walked in there. They had altar call They asked me where I was from I told him where I was from he pointed me to the congregation there and asked him

But would they receive me in they received me in I just like is that it what's going on? Yeah, that's true story right there and then

I mean weeks later they had me teaching Sunday school Wow Yeah, it was crazy.

And well, so that was 2003 two years later 2005 I'm watching

TV in where the master comes on and Ray comforts It shows a little snippet of him on the box preaching the gospel of all the places

TV in you know, right? That was the moment when I saw myself

Naked before God and exposed and knew I needed to repent and put my faith in Christ that I was living a lie praise

God and how then Perhaps it was some connection to Ray comfort

Although I'm not Certain how reformed he is. I know that many reformed people love him and benefit from him

But how did you discover and embrace reformed theology? well, I was I was actually ordained in the assemblies of God slash

Church of God is like a little movement happening in between them and I was Like I was going around preaching and at different churches and stuff like that So there was this church plant taking place and they and I was preaching through the gospel of John But I had been preaching at the jail and I had been preaching verse by verse through Genesis And so I was like, well, so someone mentioned it about verse by verse

I can do that and so I said I'm gonna do the book of John and well that thing put me in a headlock

Oh, yeah, I was trying to be faithful with the text and I got to John 3 Verse 3 being of being born again.

And as I was preaching through the text, I told the Other people I said so what I'm about to to tell you

I'm not sure. It's true I'm not sure what to believe us. I'm just gonna tell you what the text says

And I just told them, you know, like According to what I see that you must be born again before you can see the kingdom of God It's kind of like before a a baby before you can hold the baby.

The baby must first be born right, so in order to hold the baby the baby must first be born and And I said so what happened what needs to happen before you can hold it?

The baby must first be born. So before you can see the kingdom of God what needs to happen? It must be born again

I said so this is something that we have no control over That is something it's the power of God and I start talking language like that Well, that's the last time

I preached And this was even before you even heard of anything nicknamed

Calvinism or sovereign grace or reform It's like I heard someone mentioned it at that church one time and I said what is that?

It's all they believe you're a predestined worst these socks you got on. I said, well, I don't believe that but then

I Heard I was just I didn't know where to go after that.

You know, I don't know if I was a heretic or what? But I heard John MacArthur Preach on being born again.

I was like, that's it. That's what that's what I believe and he did a Hey, and he what but but I had already been listening to dr.

White here and there But it was like on a debate of the Trinity and stuff like that, but I I didn't know about alpha and Omega ministry

You know, so every once in a while like I saw him on TV and it was a Trinity debate. I don't the Jewish voice

That's why I've heard and this was in 2011 But then was that with the

Michael Brown Michael Brown tag -teaming with yeah, yeah, absolutely They were debating to Anti -trinitarian unit area.

Yeah. Yeah, so John MacArthur. They had a Conference from grace to you strange fire and then like it really opened my eyes to The Way I was walking in the the

Pentecostals and stuff like that and Trinity Pentecostals Church of God's in this guy and I Could just open my eyes man.

I was Like back then I couldn't imagine watching a preacher preach that just stood behind a pulpit

What is he doing do something? You know, but man when I first saw Steve Lawson preaching all their movements like I was so captivated man

He had his hands going I couldn't even keep up like I was and I just I watched every one of those strange fire things but then

I also started Watching the videos elsewhere of these guys and then the word started, you know,

RC Spro Reformed theology book and I just started devouring it man and and there for a while, you know like I was afraid like I Have Calvinism in a headlock and it would have me in a headlock and you know

And finally I had to say uncle I give up Yeah, that actually is very close as far as that aspect of the the battle

That I had when I first became a believer I was at a Bible study run by the man who would become by the pastor and who would later baptize me and During a break when we were having refreshments and coffee,

I overheard a conversation he was having about predestination And I walked up to him. I said What do you believe and he explained the unconditional election and predestination.

I said man, that sounds like Hinduism or something I don't think I'm never gonna believe that and I Shared this with some of my friends at church

I said I don't think I'm ever gonna believe this Calvinism stuff and then when it came time for me to be baptized I told my elders.

I love you guys I trust you to be my shepherds, but I don't think I'm ever gonna be one of these Calvinists And they said as long as you don't undermine the teaching of the church and submit to the fact that that's what we believe

We're not going to require that you already Understand it and believe it before we baptize you you believe that Jesus Christ Sinless life is atoning death is bodily resurrection or what you were trusting in for your salvation.

We will baptize you so I was baptized and This Englishman who's now in heaven who is a member of the church

Nigel Stone? When he heard me complaining about my disagreements with Calvinism, he handed me a booklet

George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on election And I read that and I said to myself.

Oh, no, this is true, but I hate it But then in about a month's time,

I fell absolutely madly in love with it. Yeah It's a beautiful truth Kind of similar

I was at a Bible study and someone asked about predestination I said, well, I don't believe that and it was like well

I don't know why and he started naming off verse like it just kept coming coming coming verse at the verse that's verse

I said, you know what? I don't either but I'm gonna look into it So, where are you attending church or where are you a member now?

Well, I was a member at the well still a member at the Reformed Baptist Church of Nashville I think I've been there about five years

We just recently moved too far away in order to attend there. Well on my because I Used to do a lot of street preaching and on my street preaching.

I met a Good faithful brother named Adam Cutshaw and he became a pastor of a encounter life church

It's in Manchester, Tennessee It's a Southern Baptist But it's reformed like he's fully reformed and so We moved to Tallahoma, Tennessee, which it's about a 20 -minute drive to get the church.

So we serve there we put in our Membership, you know

We apply for membership and it's not like the Southern Baptist where you walk up shake a hand sign a card and they welcome you

In there's a process, you know, you you got to meet with the elders Got to answer questions about the gospel and they present you and it's a you know, it's about a three month

Thing and as far as Post -tentative first Lux Bible rebonding.

How did you finally become convinced that that was the name you wanted for that business?

Well, we wanted something that didn't point to me like Like there's many

Rebinders out there and the rebonding company would be their name or their last name or something like that I wanted something that would glorify

Christ So we wanted something that would point to Christ now a lot of people They look at post -tentative or slugs and they think it points to the

Reformation and it was one of the models of the Reformation But it's one of the deep truths that's found in Scripture out of darkness light

Yeah, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, but God Made you alive in Christ.

That's post -tentative breast Lux You know, so we wanted something That pointed to Christ and I did not point to me did not point to one man

You know, I want this this is bigger than me You know, God is just using me right now.

And eventually I pray that he uses my kids in the future to carry on this leather craft

Amen, and I can remember Immediately the website PTL Bible rebonding calm.

Yes, because I've heard the ad so many times PTL Bible rebonding calm perhaps just give a brief

Description of what a potential customer could expect they might have no idea what the beginning range of cost would be and of course,

I'm sure that the the prices vary because of the kind of leather the the size of the

Bible and the extent of the rebonding and How fancy you go with with?

engraved Logos and things so give us kind of a range of What would be involved financially and so on for your average customer?

Oh, well, let's just look at the large size Bible So so you have to open your cover of your

Bible and measure from the top of the page to the bottom of the page So if it's nine inches, it's a large size

Bible It doesn't matter if it's a study Bible or whatever it is if it's nine inches tall

It's a large size Bible and a large size Bible can range from 190 to 215 to be a basic rebond a basic rebond includes a leather cover leather liner

Spine hub. So if you look at the spine, they'll be ridges like ribs spine hub spine stamping

Which would be Holy Bible or study Bible? The Initials where the

ESV KJV whatever and then our logo and you get three bears for ribbons double -sided bears for ribbons, so But we also have the bells and whistles which is hand stitching around the perimeter gold guilt lines

You want the five solos On your spine we can do it. You want the five solos on the end sheets.

We can do it You want the doctrines of grace on your spine we can do it if you want a tulip

Embossed on your cover we can do it if you want it lasered engraved I mean like there's this so there's so much that we can do

I mean, but if you want a basic rebond and it's a large size Bible you can get it done

Without the bells and whistles, but it was still a good lifetime Bible All of our leather is a hundred year shelf life.

You can get it done for 190 to 215 or It can range on up to four or five hundred dollars depending on what you choose and in virtually any color or are there only

Or there are lots of colors so we can do around 30 different colors around there like somebody who wants an electric purple

I can do a Pretty purple. I think we call it a violet purple, but I do have an electric blue Yeah, I heard

James White mentioned that actually yeah They did the Bible that he did for that Mormon from the three

Mormons. It was done in an electric blue Well great and once again

It's PTL Bible rebinding calm. That's the website for post ten of us

Lux Bible rebinding post ten of us Lux being the Latin phrase from darkness light yeah after darkness after darkness light and I just want to thank you so much for being on the program today.

It was utterly fascinating and God willing we'll have you back on the program with some updates that you might have for us that are interesting

There are listeners might enjoy here. Yeah, man I hope everything goes well with you and definitely let me know in this thing broadcast nothing like hearing yourself

Hopefully my webmaster Eric Nielsen who's sitting behind us will have that Available for broadcasting in the not -so -distant future.

All right. Thank you so much Chris. God bless you God bless. I hope that you have enjoyed these interviews and found them profitable

I hope that you will take the opportunity to visit striving for eternity ministries and post ten of us

Lux Bible rebinding and as Chris always says I hope that you will remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater