August 11, 2023 Show with John Bingaman on “The Necessity of Church Planting”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 11th day of August, 2023.

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I'm very excited about some major events that are rapidly approaching, and one of those events includes a three -day event in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, more specifically

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Mannheim, Pennsylvania, in Lancaster County. This is the Future of Christendom Conference, which is going to be held

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Friday, September 15th through Sunday, September the 17th.

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The Sunday portion will be the worship services of Independence Reform Bible Church, and this three -day event is going to be held at Spooky Nook Sports, very bizarre name for a gorgeous, breathtaking event facility,

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Spooky Nook Sports and Events in Mannheim, Pennsylvania. This is the

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Future of Christendom Conference, which will feature Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and the theme is

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The Gospel at War. Dr. White is the keynote speaker, but there are quite a number of other speakers at this conference, including my guest today, who

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I will be introducing momentarily. There's also going to be a debate during this three -day event that I have orchestrated.

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It will be held on Saturday, September 16th, starting at 3 .30 p .m. This is a debate that Dr.

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White will be having with an individual who identifies himself as a gay

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Christian. His name is Dr. Gregory Coles. And the theme of the debate is,

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Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

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Dr. James R. White will be opposing that thesis, and Dr. Gregory Coles will be defending it.

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I hope that all of you listening will make every effort to be there, no matter where you live, take a train, plane, automobile, to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and I would love to meet many of you that I've never met before at this event.

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And you can register at this event at futureofchristendom .org, futureofchristendom .org.

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Register as soon as possible so that you can take advantage of the discount price. And by the way, the price comes with free lunch and refreshments on Saturday.

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So I hope to see you there, and we'll be repeating that, and you'll be hearing ads during this program promoting that event as well.

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But today I have a first -time guest, who I just mentioned briefly earlier, is one of the speakers at the

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Future of Christendom conference. His name is John Bingaman. He is a board member of the

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Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society, and today we are going to be addressing the theme, The Necessity of Church Planting.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, John Bingaman.

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Chris, thank you. Appreciate it. Am I pronouncing your last name correctly? You are, Chris, yeah.

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Many years ago there was a TV show called McHale's Navy, and there was a guy on there named

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Captain Binghamton, and all my life I've been getting that. But it's been off the

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TV so long that people actually struggle with my name now and get it right more than not. Yeah, in fact,

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I remember that captain very well. I don't recall ever seeing that actor again in anything else, but he was quite humorous, had the perfect voice, annoying, nasally voice, and nerdy appearance.

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And by the way, I'm going to tell our listeners right away to mark on your calendars the second

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Friday of September. My guest's wife, Beth Bingaman, will be our guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio as well.

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So you might as well mark down your calendar for that date, which is

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September 8th, by the way, the second Friday of September. Yeah, I should point out,

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Chris, that actually my wife Beth will be speaking and I will not. When you were able to arrange the debate, we deep -sixed some of the speakers.

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I just didn't make the cut. By the way, I didn't either, but I told

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Joel, if anybody needs to be cut, make me first because I would rather give as much time to James White as possible.

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So I fell on my sword and got cut. Well, and I'm happy to do so.

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Beth will be speaking about the Gospel at War with Feminism. So she's really looking forward to giving that talk.

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Is there such a war? That's amazing. Yeah, well, let's ramp it up.

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Now, she's an author also, correct? She is. Beth's passion is in mentoring women.

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Like me, she's a gray hair, but she takes the Titus 2 passage very seriously about the older women mentoring and helping the younger women.

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So she's written a book on that, and I'm sure she'll be happy to talk about that when she's on your program.

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She blogs two or three times a week as well, and she speaks at women's ministries whenever asked.

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She gives as much time to it as possible. She's got one coming up in Western PA at the end of August.

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Now, what is the title of her book? You know, I should know this, but it's not right in front of me.

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I think it's titled The Trials of Being Married to a Man with a

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Bad Memory. There you go. She would appreciate that, yes.

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But tell us something about the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society for which you serve on the board.

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Yep, thank you, Chris. Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society, and I'll shorten it to MARS for now, got started in 2010,

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I believe. It was several guys getting together at restaurants and just talking about how does the

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Bible apply to things that are outside of church and outside of what the church is talking about.

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I was not at the first two meetings, but I was invited to subsequent ones.

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After that, I was able to insinuate myself onto the board. For the good number of years, from 2010 through 2016 or so, we were doing weekly meetings,

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I'm sorry, not weekly, monthly meetings in and around either Brooks County, which is just north of Lancaster County, or sometimes in Lancaster County, where we would go to a restaurant.

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They would give us a meeting space because a number of us would have supper there, and then invite anybody who was interested, anybody who we could catch their ear, to listen to several of us give talks about how the

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Bible applies to various issues of life. Joel Saint, who is the executive director of MARS, will tell you that our original thought was that we would develop

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MARS into an organization that could help churches, perhaps by going in to teach a

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Sunday school class or have a Saturday meeting at their churches and point out how the

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Bible deals with immigration or taxation or feminism or various issues of the day.

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Boy, were we wrong. The pastors gave us one big, fat, silent treatment.

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We did get a number of pastors come out one time when we bought their supper, but as one of our members, he said, yeah, you got the plate lickers, and that's where our work with the churches kind of stopped.

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But anyway, we were getting a bit of a following, and it's in 2016 or 2017, we decided that we would try to have a larger conference, a bigger meeting that would last for a couple of days.

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So we started those, and we had the first couple of those in Redding, Pennsylvania, and then we moved to Lancaster, and then we got shut out by COVID.

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We had plans for a 2020 conference that got, you know, we got frozen out of the venue, of course.

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So since then, we've been having smaller events at campgrounds in and around Lancaster County where we would have, instead of a two - or three -day event, we would just have a single -day event.

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But that's the origin of Future of Christendom. Our very first conference was entitled

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The Future of Christendom, and we invited a number of speakers.

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Actually, we had the late Gary North at that very first one. Although, yeah, he did not come physically.

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He had just been diagnosed with the cancer from which he died.

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But he did dial in and give a presentation by, I guess it was

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Zoom or something like that, something that resembled Zoom at the time.

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And yeah, so this Future of Christendom conference that we're looking forward to, that you gave us such a nice big plug for, is the latest of those, and we're looking for big things.

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We're just thrilled to have Dr. White involved. Out of Mars grew our church,

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Independence Reformed Bible Church, and we'll talk about that later as being a possibly viable way of getting a church started.

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But Independence Reformed Bible Church is Reformed Baptist, and of course, you don't get any better spokesman for the theology and the mechanics of theology than Dr.

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White. And I'm sure especially now that he has not only become post -millennial but a theonomist, which is even more of a reflection of Independence Reformed Bible Church.

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That's a fact. When I was a new Christian and somehow, by God's providence, by the way,

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I'm confessing right now that I'm still a millennial, but I'm very open to be educated on other eschatological views.

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There's still time. Well, especially since you're a post -millennial, there's definitely a lot of time.

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A lot of time. But when I first became a Christian and somehow, by God's providence, very quickly developed friendships with not only post -millennialists but theonomists, never had a problem with that at all, even though I had disagreements.

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And in the beginning of my Christian life, in fact,

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R .J. Rushduni was a client of mine on WMCA Radio, an affiliate of Salem Media, the largest

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Christian radio network in the world, where I worked for 15 years. I worked for their New York affiliate,

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WMCA. And R .J. Rushduni was one of my clients on a program that I invented called

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The Voice of Sovereign Grace. It was on every night, Monday through Friday, and five different pastors hosted the show, and R .J.

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was one of them. And at that time, you could hardly find anywhere in the world a

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Baptist who was a theonomist. The only one that I was aware of was William Einwechter of a church in—I can't remember if it's

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Enola, Pennsylvania right now. I'm drawing a blank. Yeah, I think it's in Stevens?

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Perhaps. Yeah. Emanuel Free Reform Church. Emanuel Free, yes.

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Yes, which is an odd title because there is a Pato Baptist denomination in the Free Reform Church, but they are

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Reform Baptists. And Brother Einwechter used to write articles for Rushduni in the

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Chalcedon Report, and he was the only one that I was aware of for decades.

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And now there is a volcanic eruption of Baptists who are embracing not only post -millennialism but theonomy.

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So it's kind of an interesting phenomenon that's happening. Yeah, it truly is.

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Here's a little bit of trivia for you, Chris. William Einwechter was

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Joel Saint's roommate in college. Wow. So, yes.

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So we know of his writings and of his church for sure.

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Great. Well, we have a tradition here that I've been conducting ever since we launched this program in 2005.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, and that would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

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Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.

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And we would love to hear a summary of your story. Okay. Well, Chris, I'm 69 years old.

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I grew up here right outside of Reading, Pennsylvania, and I still live in the same little borough that I grew up in.

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And my parents were at least nominal Christians, but we attended what's known as a denomination called the

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UCC, United Church of Christ. Very, very liberal. And that's putting it mildly.

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Yeah. I would call it apostate leftist. Well, it certainly is now.

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I mean, there's no question that I would not attend a UCC any longer.

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But it was a church that I grew up in. We walked there. This little town that I live in called

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West Reading is a live, work, play kind of place. And we walked to church.

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And so I grew up there. I grew up in the church. I sang in the choir. My mom was what you would—often people would call her a church lady.

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You know, if the doors were open, Mom was there. And she was very involved in the choir. And so I grew up singing.

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I grew up going to—I was in the cherub choir, and then I was in the junior choir, and then

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I was in the intermediate choir, and then I was in the senior choir. Grew up singing the hymns of the faith.

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It may have been a liberal denomination, but they still had a hymnal. And I never got anything out of the service, per se, but I learned a lot from Sunday school teachers who taught the classic

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Sunday school curricula. And I learned a lot by reading the hymns, not just singing them, but reading them.

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And so I had this ingrained love of the harmonies in the hymnody of the

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Christian faith. So I got to 18. I left for college, and I left the church, and I didn't look back.

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I lived a thoroughly pagan lifestyle through my 20s and 30s.

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I had met my wife at the University of Delaware, where I went to college. And we were good people,

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Chris, you know, the kinds. We had two children. We didn't kick the dog.

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We paid our bills. We're good, right? My wife grew up Methodist.

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And when we had kids, she took the kids to her

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Methodist church here in Reading. And, you know, I didn't object to that. I wasn't hostile to Christianity.

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I just didn't see much sense in it, didn't see much value in it. But of course, as we know today, the

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United Methodist Church is hostile toward Christianity. It truly is.

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With some exception, I know some conservative Bible -believing pastors who are still in the

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United Methodist Church, some of whom are intending to leave for the global Methodist denomination, the new conservative group.

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And may God help them. I mean, I believe that there's a remnant of people in a lot of these churches.

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So much tradition goes on that keeps people in the church. It's my church, after all.

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This is where I grew up, and I'm not leaving, yada, yada. But anyway, so back to my salvation.

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So the kids were getting a little bit at the Methodist church, and the

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Lord was working on my wife. And I was,

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I am, I should say, a serial entrepreneur. I grabbed for the brass ring a number of times in my career.

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When I was first out of college, I became a CPA. And then after that, I became a carpenter and a contractor.

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And after having been put out of business, that business, by a tornado, got involved in a couple of other startups.

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And, you know, so I was scrambling, always scrambling. And I found myself in the late 80s, 89, 90, 91.

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I was driving from Berks County towards Philadelphia for a part -time job to keep some food on the table.

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And you could only listen to talk radio for so long. You know, I was a political junkie, listening to all the politics of the day.

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And it just started getting a little tiring. And one day, as I was driving down to work,

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I was casting about on the radio, and I came across a Christian station, WBYN.

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Actually, it was WBYO then, out of Boyertown. And they were playing hymns.

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Well, I knew the hymn, so I was singing along with the hymn. And I started timing my drives to catch the hymns.

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Well, what was interesting is that after the hymns were over, that little period of like 6 .30

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to 7, they had a preacher coming on. This guy is preaching the gospel.

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And, well, I didn't know it was the gospel. I was just listening to it. And one day,

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I said to my wife, I said, Beth, you really need to listen to this guy, Chuck somebody, on this radio.

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And it was Chuck Swindoll. Now, Chuck Swindoll is a dispensational preacher, but you don't listen to him for too long without getting a serious gospel message.

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And, I mean, I got saved listening to Chuck Swindoll and radio preachers like David Jeremiah, also wildly dispensational.

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But that's what God used to get my attention.

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He used the hymns to get my attention. And then he used that preaching to get me into the

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Bible. And then, you know, once God has you opening the scriptures and actually reading it and giving you some eyes to see what's in there, you know, it's not even fair.

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The Holy Spirit is just going to do its work, and that was that. So there it is.

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I got saved listening to dispensational preaching on the radio. My wife came to me about the same time saying, you know,

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I'm a Christian. I said, well, great, Beth. There's this church up on the hill that I knew about from my contracting days.

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They used to be on a job site, and there was this old man who was a flooring contractor, and his knees were just done,

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Chris. You would see him on the floor. He'd be pounding the carpet in, or he'd be laying tile, and he was in obvious pain.

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And he would get up, and he would smile. And one day, I said to one of the other guys on the job,

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I said, what's with Bob? The man's always got a smile on his face. Ah, he's a Bible thumper from up there on the hill.

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He goes to that church up there on Hamilton Boulevard. So, you know, it's just something that stuck in my head.

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And we went in there, and it was a Reformed church. And so we parked there for a number of years.

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That's where we met Joel St. He had walked in there with his family shortly after we started there.

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And I learned a lot there, and I learned more from Joel. And then, you know, the reading just kept coming and coming and coming.

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And Joel's the one who really, you know, turned my head. I had pretty much left the dispensationalism behind after about a year.

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But I was like you, Chris. I went to the Aumil camp for a while. And then Joel got a hold of me, and then it was all over.

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And, by the way, I want to let our listeners know, since I clearly identified the

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United Church of Christ denomination in a very negative light, there are a minority of those congregations that are still faithful to the

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Scriptures. And one of them is Salem Church of Martinsburg, Pennsylvania.

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The pastor there, Michael Klaus, is intending to draw the congregation out of that denomination.

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It just hasn't happened yet. And you might want to listen to, after this live program is over, an interview

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I did with Michael Klaus and also Ed Boyle, who's the pastor of Trinity Christian Church of New Bloomfield, which is a former

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United Church of Christ congregation. That church already left that denomination.

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And the theme is, Is There Hope for the United Church of Christ? So you might want to listen to that. It took place on June 16th of this year.

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And if you type in Klaus, C -L -O -U -S -E, into the search engine at irontreppanzionradio .com,

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that will be the only recording that comes up. I just thought I'd throw that out there.

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Well, I'm glad you did. That'll be an interesting interview to listen to. It does seem that if anybody's faithful in the

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UCC, they're working at getting out. Right. In fact, after interviewing Michael Klaus, whose church is still in there,

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I found out that in some ways, in some areas, he's more conservative than I am. So he certainly could not survive too much longer in that denomination.

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Yeah, it's a shame. I mean, it's just— It's awful. Yeah. I mean, they are almost neck and neck with the universalist

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Unitarians or Unitarian Universalists, however they order those words, the most left -wing denomination,

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I think, known to man. But we're going to be going to our first break, and when we return, we are going to be diving into the discussion that is the main theme of our broadcast, the necessity of church planting.

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And if you have a question for John Bigaman, please send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N, gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

27:20

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

27:26

Let's say you are in disagreement with your own elders at your church over an issue that involves church planting.

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Perhaps you're even a pastor yourself, and you have disagreements with your own fellow elders or your denomination or something like that.

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We would understand that those reasons and others would compel you to remain anonymous.

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But if you're asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

27:58

Don't go away. We'll be right back with John Bigaman and the necessity of church planting right after these messages from our sponsors.

28:06

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

28:23

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,

28:34

Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the sixth

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Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

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Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the

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Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

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Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

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I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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That's royaldiadem .com. Make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We're now back with our guest today,

38:02

John Bingaman. We're discussing the necessity of church planting. If you have a question, give us an email at chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

38:11

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Well, tell us, first of all,

38:18

John Bingaman, especially for the fact that there, in addition to people who listen to this show who are seasoned

38:26

Christians and pastors and seminary professors and theologians, there are also very new babes in Christ who listen, and there are also people of different religions who listen.

38:39

So why don't you define church planting? Because I even was speaking to a young man recently who's a new convert, and he didn't even know what

38:46

I was talking about. Okay. Well, I mean, church planting is really nothing more than starting up a new church.

38:55

The question ends up being, when I say the necessity of it,

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I think that is because of the state of the church that we see around us in America today.

39:10

We were just discussing the UCC and the United Methodists as being churches that really have gone off the rails as far as conforming to anything that you would recognize in the

39:25

Bible. And so it seems necessary that we get churches started again.

39:34

Then there's the question of the megachurches. I don't know if you've ever read

39:44

Gary Gilley's book, This Little Church Went to Market. No.

39:49

But it's kind of an indictment of the big churches, those churches with thousands of members, as being essentially just a business.

40:02

It turns into the money. And so if the church that you're in is neglecting the

40:11

Bible, has abandoned the Bible, if the church that you're in has more or less abandoned you because you're just a number in the pew, then

40:23

I think it's incumbent on us to think about, at the very least, think about getting a church started.

40:33

It's not something that you do lightly. There are some things that you have to have in place in order to do it.

40:41

But if we could get thousands of little churches started that were biblically literate and biblically sound and who were devoted to the

40:54

Bible, God could fan those little fires into one big conflagration anytime he wanted to.

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And I think that's what we're seeing without seeing it. Some years ago, my pastor,

41:10

Joel St., and a number of young men from our church went to a debate sponsored by Apologia Studios out in Arizona.

41:20

And the most encouraging thing that came out of their trip was the fact that they ran into a dozen guys like themselves.

41:31

A dozen, let's say, churches like IRBC that were just this little church that's completely off everybody's radar.

41:41

Nobody knows about it, but there they were. And if that's going on, and you can meet those guys at one debate, then there's a lot more of that going on than we realize.

41:57

And I think it's vitally important. I called this—the topic that I wanted to talk about was the importance of church planting.

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And it's mostly based on the experience that Joel and I have both had with churches.

42:20

Well, actually, you used the term necessity, and I wanted you to clarify that, because I'm assuming you do not mean that it is a required necessity that every single congregation is involved in the planting of another church somewhere.

42:38

No, not exactly. But I would encourage people to think about, in their churches, think about, if they're growing, to spin out daughter congregations so that the pastoring, the shepherding, can take place on biblical terms, on a biblical scale.

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When things get so big, it gets very impersonal. A lot of churches try to work around that with small groups or adding pastors of visitation and pastors of this and that.

43:20

But I think that the models of churches that we see in Acts and in the

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Bible are much smaller affairs than that.

43:34

So it seems to me that there's this necessity that comes about because of the apostasy of some of our churches, of the mainline churches especially, and also the size of our churches.

43:49

I think it becomes necessary to start spinning these out into new churches or maybe daughter, if you want to call them daughter churches, that's fine too.

43:57

But our experience was that we couldn't just leave the churches that we were in, that we were dissatisfied with, because we couldn't find anything that was seemingly, well, that was theonomic, that was post -mill, and of course we see that as a biblical way to organize your church.

44:27

So, I mean, that's where the necessity comes from for us. If you can't worship in the church that you're in, then it may be necessary to start one, and it's not impossible to do.

44:41

We already have a listener question who happens to be an anonymous listener. All right.

44:47

The anonymous listener says, I am remaining anonymous because I'm very disturbed about a church that is being planted, and even though this church is being planted by a close friend,

45:01

I am in strong disagreement with how he is conducting this plant.

45:08

He basically just took it upon himself to plant a church, to make it publicly known through flyers and social media that this church was being planted, but this was not a plant of another established congregation.

45:25

Isn't this a violation of biblical principles? It may very well be.

45:30

A lot of people say, oh, I've had the call, and when we began our own church, we did look to outside help for ordination and for confirmation of the call.

45:48

You can run into some real problems if you're just running off half -cocked and you don't have a strong team of advisors and believers alongside.

46:03

So your listener, I think, is right to be concerned, but maybe he really needs to speak with the fellow who's planting the church to find out where his call is coming from and if he has some sort of backup on his calling and on his startup.

46:29

Now, I'm assuming that since the listener said it was a friend of his or hers that that conversation happened.

46:38

Yeah, and so it's something to be very concerned about.

46:44

It's always a concern if what you're trying to do started on the force of your own personality.

46:50

I mean, that's a cult, not necessarily a church. And there's no shortage of pride going around.

46:59

I fight with that every day. Do you? Yes. Everybody that I know does, except for me.

47:07

And you're proud of that, Chris. I hear that. People who are endeavoring to plant a church really have to prayerfully rule out wrong motives.

47:22

I personally know of some instances where vengeance was even a motive, where somebody left a church in bad blood for some reason or another and they planted a church very close to that church.

47:40

Even if there's no bad blood or vengeance involved, isn't it wise to do some investigation about the theological makeup of churches in a specific area?

47:53

And if there are already churches there that reflect your theology and doctrine and so on, shouldn't you be not only more respectful of the existing church, but if you really believe what you stand for is biblical and vital, wouldn't you want to have that church planted in an area where that viewpoint or viewpoints, plural, were a minority or perhaps even non -existent?

48:23

I would agree with that, Chris. With the proviso, again, that you're not moving into perhaps a megachurch.

48:34

It's certainly something if we could have found a church where we could worship, where we were not constantly fighting either dispensational thought or some sort of overbearing membership requirements or things like that.

48:58

We found churches. Both Joel and I tried a number of different churches that we thought, well, rather than start a church, let's go here.

49:11

I tried this. He tried that. And always found something that was preventing us from actual truly worshiping.

49:21

And so that's why we landed on a church plant. And so for us, we found it to be necessary.

49:32

I believe that it's, as I said, I believe that it's possible to do this.

49:40

The topic of our first Future of Christendom conference, it's actually what

49:46

Gary North spoke about, was church planting and church building and what to be looking for.

49:53

And I would encourage people to go listen. While I wouldn't necessarily agree with everything that Dr. North said in his talks, they were both very helpful, and we have those posted on our

50:04

Future of Christendom website in the archives. Great. The area of church planting, if I'm not mistaken, the importance of it, seems to, in your understanding, be coming from an apprehension of the idol that many people have, many pastors, elders, congregations, and denominations have made an idol of the huge congregation.

50:41

And I have to be very careful because there are huge churches that I admire what they're doing greatly.

50:49

John MacArthur's congregation where he pastors, Grace Community Church is one. But there are obviously megachurches that, in comparison, make

51:00

Grace Community Church a dwarf church. So the size can be relative, you know, according to who you're speaking with.

51:10

And, of course, Grace Community Church is probably enough elders to adequately oversee a congregation that large.

51:22

But it was kind of funny. I've interviewed Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You.

51:28

I've interviewed him probably more times than any other guest on Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, perhaps with the exception of Dr.

51:36

Joe Moorcraft of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia. But Phil, one time during an interview, made me chuckle when he was describing a gathering of believers within Grace Community Church that he was involved in the oversight for.

51:57

And he described it as, it's a tiny chapel of folks of about 500.

52:04

I said, do you realize that's about five times the size of your average

52:10

Reformed Baptist congregation? Right. But in fact, I'm going to let you pick up where I left off there after we return from our midway break, because we have to go to our midway break, and I'll have you respond to the whole matter of church size and the area of being compelled to perhaps break apart a large church so that they are receiving more adequate oversight and that kind of thing.

52:39

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. So send in your questions to John Bingaman on church planting at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

52:48

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. I want to remind you, please be patient. This is the midway break, which is longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:59

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, is required by the FCC to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, where they're located, and they do so with their own public service announcements and other things.

53:12

While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely.

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Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more successfully respond to our advertisers.

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And we hope that that sometimes at least means that you buy their products, use their services, and visit their churches.

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But when you can't do any of that, there's one thing that you definitely can do if you love this show. Thank our advertisers for sponsoring this program.

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We absolutely positively need our advertisers to exist. The funding that comes from advertisers on this show is indispensable.

53:52

So please thank them at least. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. The Mid -Atlantic

53:58

Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

54:08

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,

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Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the sixth

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Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

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Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

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Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

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Head to futureofchristendom .org. Back together again.

55:10

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and Dr.

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Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Oh, hail the power of Jesus' name.

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Before I return to my guest today, John Bingaman who is one of the board members of the

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries September 15th through the 17th but before I return to that discussion,

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I have some important announcements to make. Once again folks, if you really love this show you don't want it to disappear, you look forward to the topics and guests that I have on this program daily sometimes you'll never hear some of these folks ever anywhere else and these are very often brilliant people who are among the shining lights in their field and and yet the majority of the milquetoast neo -evangelical or evangelifish radio and television networks would not touch them with a 10 -foot pole because they're too controversial but if you love this show please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com

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First Love Radio who live streams this program that you're listening to they are a subsidiary of First Love Ministries and they are having a conference coming up very soon

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August 26th and 27th which is a Saturday and Sunday and this is going to be held at the

01:13:07

Reformed Baptist Church of Tama, Iowa and the conference speaker is my dear friend

01:13:13

Joe Jackowitz president of First Love Ministries and Austin Huggins of First Love Ministries and also the pastor, a pastor in Baghdad, Florida the theme of the conference is sanctification, how to grow in holiness if you want more details go to www .firstloveministries

01:13:35

.org www .firstloveministries .org also don't forget about the three -day event that you've been hearing advertised every day on this show the

01:13:43

Future of Christendom conference in Mannheim, Pennsylvania which is Lancaster County featuring Dr.

01:13:48

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries which also includes a debate on homosexuality go to www .futureofchristendom

01:13:55

.org for that three -day event www .futureofchristendom .org and also

01:14:01

I just got word that we are we finally have our full

01:14:08

Iron Sherpa Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon established with a speaker

01:14:14

Jeff Noblitt who is the pastor of Grace Life Church of the

01:14:20

Shoals and Muscle Shoals, Alabama one of the most powerful preachers I've ever heard in my life he is our guest speaker on Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m.

01:14:29

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Louisville, Pennsylvania absolutely free of charge for men in ministry leadership and not only is admission free and the meal for free but everybody there will get a heavy sack of free brand new books personally selected by me which have been donated by Christian publishers all over the

01:14:48

United States and the United Kingdom for more details on registering for that go to www .IronSherpaZionRadio

01:14:55

.com www .IronSherpaZionRadio .com and we would love to get you registered and last but not least if you are not a member of a biblically faithful Christ honoring church like the

01:15:08

Independence Reform Bible Church in Lancaster County that we've been discussing well please no matter where on the planet

01:15:15

Earth you live if you are without a biblically faithful church home send me an email address to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:15:22

and I may be able to help you find a church as I have done with many people in our audience spanning the globe that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:15:30

and put I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address to send in a question to our guest today John Bingaman on the necessity of church planting and we were saying before the break

01:15:41

John that there are and I don't want to impugn the motives of everybody who is the pastor of a very large church possibly even correctly identified as a mega church but there are people

01:15:55

I have met some men who have no interest in church planting because they want their empire to grow and grow and grow and remember folks

01:16:04

I'm not broad brushing everybody with a large church everybody who pastors a large church but that is something that people have to really on their knees in prayer contemplate if their churches busting through the walls and they have thousands of people don't you think it is a really wise and biblical and Christ honoring thing to contemplate the planting of other churches so that these churches can have adequate oversight and so that the good news can be spread in a further direction geographically yeah

01:16:40

Chris I'm kind of getting in the weeds here when I when I talk about these the size of churches because you're right there are there are faithful pastors out there who have large churches you know during the break

01:16:55

I looked it up here in 1st Thessalonians at the end of the at the end of the book it talks about the beginning chapter or in verse 13 it says live in peace with one another we urge you brethren admonish the unruly encourage the faint -hearted help the weak be patient with everyone see that no one repays another with evil for evil but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people and that's all being said in the context of Paul's letter to a church he's talking about that church how do you do all those things with 500 people it's it's it's going to be very difficult to to do those things so you know

01:17:33

I I'm not saying leave your your large church what I'm saying is examine yourself examine your motives are you going to a large church so you can say oh gosh

01:17:42

I go to so -and -so's church and you know he's heard on the radio from coast to coast are you going to that church because the teaching is absolutely so biblical that you can't wait to get there on a

01:17:53

Sunday to get recharged are you going to you know large churches you can go to the church and hide it's it's sometimes it's tempting if you've been in a tough situation where you feel like you've either been neglected or even abused in your church and I'm you know like emotionally abused or just ignored or cast aside it's easy to go to a big church and hide you know

01:18:19

I'm still going to church but you're just you're just putting in your time you're marking time so I don't

01:18:25

I don't mean to make this whole thing a diatribe against against big churches I don't I really don't

01:18:31

I'm really arguing for people examining their hearts looking at the

01:18:37

Bible finding out in examining whether their church is is doing the things that the

01:18:43

Bible says the book of Acts and the epistles were Paul's writing and Peter's writing to these churches it gives us so much insight into what's intended in Christ's church how he wants his churches to be to be organized and and to care for one another and so that that's where I see the necessity of church planting coming into play so I you know perhaps

01:19:12

I should have said importance of church planting or even just scaled it back to to mechanics of what we did at IRBC to get going but that's you know that's that's where I kind of land on the big church thing it just seems to me that it's almost impossible to meet the the biblical admonitions when you get in a church it's too big that's that's that's my that's my two cents on on big churches so well what else would you like to tell our listeners in regard to the necessity of planning

01:19:51

I think I can give you some of the mechanics of what we did and to get

01:19:59

IRBC going in many ways it sprang out of the the startup of Mars you know

01:20:09

Joel was endearing himself to two people locally in his most of his most of the talks that we gave at Mars were done by Joel and he's very a very strong personality and he's got very quick and ready answers for for the questions that people will throw at him you've interviewed him

01:20:30

I believe and you know you know that to be true and so when we when we were decrying the state of our current churches back in 2013 to a friend of ours

01:20:46

I don't know if you've ever interviewed Paul Michael Raymond out of Appomattox actually

01:20:52

I've known I've known Paul Michael Raymond for decades but I am interviewing him for the first time coming up in September before the conference that you're having of course he'll be a speaker that's

01:21:09

Thursday September 7th he is going to be on yeah yeah well

01:21:15

Paul was visiting here Pennsylvania in over the 4th of July in 2013 and we we had dinner with him at Joel and Audrey's house and judge

01:21:27

Joel and I were wringing our hands about the our churches I was in a church that was dispensational in its leanings and we were into he was the pastor was going through Matthew and we were getting into where we were into the

01:21:41

Matthew 23 and I was I was dreading getting to Matthew 24 and anyway we were we were talking and and Paul said to us well why don't you guys you know you you have a following with with Mars why don't you start a church and and we both kind of looked at each other and said well you know it's starting a church is a pretty serious business which is what your previous listener had written about is gosh you know here's a guy kind of out on his own starting a church but we we talked about it a little bit and and he again he challenged us what what in earth is holding you back and Joel looked at him and said

01:22:31

I'm afraid it won't be successful and and Paul just he put his finger right in Joel's face and he said that's the wrong answer

01:22:38

I said hey he said it's not your work it's it's the

01:22:44

Lord's work they said what you need to do you need to be faithful at it if you're gonna if you're serious about it just go at it and be faithful and and let the

01:22:55

Lord bring the increase let the Lord bring success it's his church after all so Paul Paul had to leave and Joel and his wife and my wife and I sat and we talked about this up to to about almost midnight and decided that indeed we would we would start a church with the with the help of the members at on the board of directors at Mars and with Paul Raymond's help and a couple other pastors that we knew we would craft a statement of faith a constitution put some things in place and and see if we if we had enough interest and that's why we're named the

01:23:43

Independence Reform Bible Church because it was on Independence Day in 2013 that we decided to to start our church and so the mechanics of it were that we we had found like -minded people through the

01:24:03

Mars lectures we we were talking about how the Bible applies to all of life and so we knew that people who would be attending the church are coming with that mindset already that's what they're gonna hear and that's what we're gonna try to fill them with on a

01:24:20

Sunday morning is some admonition and exhortation and edification on how to apply the

01:24:31

Bible to day -to -day circumstances and so we we began in a rented fire hall and I think we probably had 50 people at our first our first church service and now we well we've moved to a school a

01:24:52

Christian school where we meet in their gym on a Sunday and we probably have 140 to 150 on a

01:25:01

Sunday and we're starting to get you know we're starting to feel like is this is this getting too big not to not to revisit that theme but it you know we grew because we didn't shut down over COVID although we did get tossed out of the the building we met in a pavilion during the summer of 2020 until they allowed us in the back into the building but again with the mechanics we we often look at the idea of should we be finding our own building or continue to meet in a rented space and and Joel's Joel's stock answer to that is when when the building would serve

01:25:49

Christ Church and not us serving the building that's time to get a building when we don't have to be worrying about keeping the parking lot paved and the roof on and that kind of thing but that the building is getting worn out by homeschoolers in there every day and that kind of thing well then then we should have a building and at the moment it seems very very simple to continue to rent and and stay lean and that's kind of that's that's the way we're operating now there are some other maybe quirks that we have we're not big fans of we're not big fans of the state as you might guess being

01:26:33

Reformed Baptists we didn't like what they did with with COVID we like even less when they're looking over your shoulder with banking accounts so we've you know we've we stay pretty small and we simply operate on cash our needs are very limited you know because all we got to do is pay the rent and some expenses here and there but that's we've we've just decided that we're not having the government look over our shoulder for every every check we write and every check we receive so that's we've just decided to stick stick with that and and we continue to be active in the community we just did an event in an outreach to a gay pride festival in Littitz Pennsylvania that was gosh what was that back in June during Pride Month so -called

01:27:35

Pride Month and our our goal is really to feed our people who come on a

01:27:44

Sunday and and encourage them to go out and be Christians all week we don't want to beat them up with programs all week long that they need to be coming into the church to you know keep them out of their houses instead we encourage them to to be

01:28:04

Christians on the job be Christians in whatever their passion may be we've had abolitionists we've had people who are very active in in adoption ministries we have book writers we have speakers it's it's it's our job we see to to feed them and keep them going and to hold their arms up in the fight so that's that's kind of the story of IRBC how we got how we got going the question ends up being at what point do we try to spin out daughter or sister congregations and we hope for that problem we'll face that when we get to it not quite there before I go to another listener question

01:28:57

I have a question of my own can pastors be too possessive of congregation members that have developed different perspectives on theology and doctrine where they would respond overly negatively if that's even grammatically correct about a group of people perhaps even one of the elders who says to the the pastor and the the other elders we have come to let's say we've come to believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace or we have come to believe in post -millennialism we have come to believe in theonomy or perhaps these are people in your congregation and they say you know we've come to believe in a non -millennial position or we have come to believe in pedo -baptism you know you could go on and on with these things where they say we believe it is best for us to leave and possibly plant a church calling a man qualified to pastor it we you know we don't want to be too close to yours we don't want to create a conflict as far as geography is concerned but we feel this is best and you may have pastors that blow a gasket over this and act like a serious crime has been committed and I'm not talking about people that are delving or devolving into aberrant heretical theology

01:30:39

I'm talking about people who just have developed an understanding within a church that is significant enough in its difference from what that church stands for that they believe it is best that they part company and and don't you think that elders of churches even though they might want to have a series of sit -downs with them and go over these things in a study and things like that but don't you think that too many pastors might be overly possessive not wanting these people to go oh yeah absolutely

01:31:12

Chris and so boy that's a that's a minefield the when we when we got started with Mars as I mentioned earlier we thought that while Mars will be a lovely adjunct to a number of churches in order to teach how the

01:31:27

Bible applies to all life well you know and and the pastors put this you know the old

01:31:33

Heisman trophy arm out I said thanks anyway we're not interested and I think that what you just elucidated there is exactly what was going on is the threat was that okay we're going to come at them with a theology that these that they've never heard it's a bit more robust form of Christianity than what most people are accustomed to because it's it's putting feet to your face and saying no you need to go out and get something done you need to go out and apply the

01:32:08

Christianity that you're learning on a Sunday all week long and we have I think there are too many there are too many churches who have bought into the two kingdoms theology that there's this kingdom in that kingdom and that Sunday's what you need to worry about and you know we're also you start to get involved in the idea of you know when people leave they're taking their their tithes with them and so you know because IRBC runs so lean we're not we're not concerned about that we have people in our congregation who lean towards paedo -baptism you know they have

01:32:47

Presbyterian tendencies we have people who came to us during COVID who were Presbyterians and they tolerate us because well we're at least you know being faithful to the scripture and and so just a matter of fact it was last weekend we had a baptism we

01:33:05

I think we had seven candidates we that we that we baptized and then

01:33:13

Presbyterians came along and watched you know it's it's it's a wonderful thing but we're not we're not going to kick people to the curb for their their paedo -baptist beliefs but on the other or if they leave that it's a matter of their own conscience and that's so you know we try to hold on to our congregation very lightly but you're right that there are pastors who are looking at the bottom line there are pastors who are looking at the empty pews that are going to react very negatively to even honest and sincerely felt differences in in theology where people feel like like they got to leave my my pastor of the church that I left when we started

01:34:01

IRBC we thought it was the only decent thing to do was go in and have a an exit interview and as as he was actually a great disciple of John MacArthur I think he'd been to 24 or 26 straight

01:34:18

Shepherds conferences and you know really sincerely held dispensational belief that I just didn't have and we talked very honestly about it and to his credit after the after the meeting he sat back in his chair and said and said well

01:34:38

I guess we really see things differently and and he sent me out not necessarily with his blessing but he sent me out with his understanding of why

01:34:48

I was leaving and I was grateful for that I truly was and he was he was a very nice man

01:34:56

I really had a lot of respect for him he was a great evangelist he hated public schools with a passion which was made him very admirable in my estimation and the terrible irony was that he ended up getting killed by a school bus on this motorcycle oh yeah it's just a few years after after we started

01:35:18

IRBC so anyway that's a that's a little bunny trail nonetheless

01:35:24

I couldn't agree with you more that it too many pastors are looking at their churches as if it's a business they're worried about about too many of the peripherals not not that they're majoring in the minors

01:35:41

I'm afraid and that's that's a shame but we have to go to our final break right now and if you have a question

01:35:47

I would advise you to send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time Chris Arnson at gmail .com

01:35:54

don't go away we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors the Mid Atlantic Reformation Society presents the future of Christendom 2023 the gospel at war

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that's HopeReformLI .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram Long Island New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron hi this is

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John Sampson pastor of King's Church in Peoria Arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would all the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com getting a driver's license running a cash register flipping burgers passing sixth grade do you know what they all have in common they all require training assessments and certifications but do you know what requires no training at all becoming a parent my name is

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AM Brewster I'm the president of truth love parent and host of its award -winning podcast I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what

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-800 -NOW -HURT .com we are now back with our guest John Bingaman and we have

01:52:31

Arnie in Perry County Pennsylvania who says in your opinion when a church is being planted how much diversity of thought and over which areas do you think is permissible for elders to have well so in our in our church we we believe that it to be an elder you would have to subscribe to Baptist theology we we use the 1689

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London Baptist Confession if you can sign off on that that you know that's fine we don't we don't actually require you to sign anything but then there's the questions in our own

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Elder Board we have questions about membership whether or not we should have a closed table at communion and we have differing opinions on that within the

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Elder Board as far as what other diversity

01:53:35

I think you have to you have to agree on the on the doctrines of grace and and you know yeah

01:53:44

I mean it we we are theonomic and post -millennial

01:53:51

I think that we would have a little bit of wiggle room for how post -millennial you want to be there are some different views on on whether or not you're going to be an idealist or not but how about a very optimistic

01:54:03

I'm a little yeah thank you Chris you know as far as being on the

01:54:11

Elder Board I think we'd need a little bit more conformity than what we are expecting in the pew but I don't know how else to answer that I think you've answered it sufficiently and okay before we run out of time

01:54:26

I really want you to summarize the primary things the most vital things that you want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this topic before we go off the air okay yeah well

01:54:40

Christian in one of your breaks you had talked about the brilliant people you have on your on your show I'm not one of those I'm just a guy that got saved and trying to put feet to it well you did a fine job as far as I'm concerned and when

01:54:53

I when I said that by the way I love having local pastors and elders on my show because they are the guys on the front lines and in the trenches when it comes to the body of Christ and discipleship and so on so I don't

01:55:09

I don't only have celebrity theologians on my show I just want to make sure that that's clear understood thank you for that Chris um

01:55:18

I would like to say to people you know we got our start at IRB see through Mars and and people are going to say well

01:55:25

I don't have a Mars to to start a church out of but what we often do is encourage people who are if you're theonomic and if you're postmill there's we don't copyright anything that we've written or recorded and if you were to go to the future of Christendom dot org you'll find links to the

01:55:47

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society you'll find links in there to previous videos and some audio that we we've done in the past you know get people together see if you have interest in these kinds of things if people are like -minded you may find that you blossom into what can easily become a church and so you know build on what we've got what we've done before look around to find to see if you can find a work that that is getting started and and find it that those people love the

01:56:26

Lord if you can if you can help put your helping hands in there it's it's what what this world needs is not more churches on corners what this world needs is the

01:56:38

Church of Jesus Christ out there in the public square in society doing what the church is supposed to do which is proclaim the rights of King Jesus and and you know and and that we love his law and that his law is perfect and good that that's what

01:56:56

I want people to take away from what they've heard from me today put put feet to it well thank you so much for doing such an excellent job today and I want to remind our listeners please if you are able to get to Lancaster County September 15th 16th and 17th please register for the future of Christendom conference featuring

01:57:24

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who is the keynote speaker there are a number of speakers but he is the keynote and on Saturday September 16th during that three -day event at 330 p .m.

01:57:36

Dr. White will be conducting a debate with an individual

01:57:41

Dr. Gregory Coles who identifies himself as a gay Christian and the theme of the debate is is gay

01:57:49

Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's Church so I hope that you register for that three -day event as soon as possible at future of Christendom org future of Christendom org and don't forget about the

01:58:06

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society who is putting that event on and that website is

01:58:13

Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society org actually

01:58:18

I think it's admitted no I'm sorry there's no society in the website I apologize Mid -Atlantic Reformation dot org

01:58:24

Mid -Atlantic Reformation dot org and also don't forget about the

01:58:32

Independent Reformed Bible Church in Morgantown Pennsylvania and that website is

01:58:43

IRBC dot church IRBC church and make note folks also

01:58:51

James White is returning to Onyx Sharpens Iron Radio again for another interview on Wednesday September 6th 4 to 6 p .m.

01:59:00

Eastern so please make you mark your calendars for that as well and folks one last time please don't forget that we are in urgent need of your financial help

01:59:11

I always hate to bring this up it really makes my stomach churn to have to do it but we are in really a dire need of your financial help ever since the

01:59:22

COVID crisis and the mandates the giving to this show plummeted and we've never bounced back if you want to donate or advertise please go to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio dot com click support then click click to donate now or send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com

01:59:38

and put advertising in the subject line I hope you all have a wonderful safe blessed joyful and Christ honoring weekend and Lord's Day and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater