Beth Moore Defends Egalitarianism with Justin Peters and Jim Osman

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I hate having to do this again. We always seem to have to deal with her. Beth Moore.

Oh, no, not again. Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rapaport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity in the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

All right. Well, welcome to The Wrap Report. I am your host, Andrew Rapaport.

Glad to have you with us. And I am joined by two brothers, Jim Osmond and Justin Peters, because whenever talking about Beth Moore, well, it's good to bring in the big guns because, you know, they know a whole lot more than me.

But I sent this clip to you guys last night, I guess, just to ruin your night.

And said, okay, let's record on this. By the time this airs, Justin, you and I will be still,

I believe, in California, just wrapping up Truth Matters. I'll be up in Northern California because I leave to head up to Redwood City.

But by the time this drops, I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of discussion that people will be discussing this video clip we're gonna play in a bit by then.

And so a lot of what people may hear by that point, what we cover may already have been covered or things like that.

But let's start. I want to play this clip because it's really, this is where we're gonna end up talking about.

And so there is a clip of Beth Moore. This is her speaking at the

Caring Well Conference. And Flying Free put it as, excellent clip on the question, does complementarian cause abuse?

And that is the topic she's looking to raise. So let's listen to her.

It may be a little bit light or soft. I'm gonna try to boost the volume as best

I can. So you may need to just be aware that it's gonna be a little hard to hear.

This is from someone's phone at the conference way back. And so let's give a listen to this.

Anybody else but me. Does complementarian theology cause abuse?

The answer's no. Sin and gross selfishness in the human heart cause abuse.

Demonic influences cause abuse. However, has a culture prevalent in various circles of the

SBC formed and emerging out of it contributed to it? Absolutely and heavily.

Now I ask you to hear me out on this. Even if you could not disagree more, even if I thought you were sitting over coffee late tonight talking about how you didn't like it.

I would know you were talking about it. Because see the world is watching to see if we will bring up what they believe is the biggest elephant in the room.

Yes. Complementarian theology became such a high core value that it inadvertently, by proof of what we have seen, look at the fruit of what happened.

Became elevated above the safety and well -being of many women.

So high a core value has become. That in much of our world, complementarian theology is now conflated with inerrancy.

Case in point, notice how often our world charges or dismisses equalitarians by saying they have a low view of scripture.

Because unless they think like us about complementarian theology, they do not honor the word of God.

It is their law of scorn. Test it and see if it is so.

Far too many SBC congregations and SBC seminaries. So few women are in the visible area of leadership.

That women who are being abused by the system itself or within it are people that are in places of power.

They don't even have a female to turn to. That's right. They don't even know where to go.

Here's the best way I know to prove it. If complementarianism were a woman,

I'd tell you that woman is being abused and somebody needs to call the police and start an investigation.

And God help us. If the police are in on it. And I guess now

I'm going to enter the witness protection program. Yes.

What is that noise? I'm certainly not suggesting you throw out the moment.

Interesting. Sorry about that. It seems that I have to keep it in a smoke. I'm saying it is imperative if the

SBC is to become a healthier church culture, that she be protected from abuse and exploitation for the sake of owning all the power.

We must be willing to courageously face all that makes us vulnerable.

The Society has no place in those who are being conformed to the image of the

Lord Jesus Christ. There is a thing in here, a child of grooming.

Very prevalent in many of our environments. And it is this. Not to question those in high position.

That must become a thing of the past. Those who cannot be questioned.

Cannot be trusted. Take the courage.

We are in a culture where we have watched shepherds protecting shepherds instead of protecting the sheep.

Oh Lord, how smellable. Take courage, present generations, for this moment has been defiantly entrusted to us.

If we are cowards, the generation coming up behind us will either despise us or be like us.

We have the courage to move out of the church because we love the church.

We can embrace ourselves for the accusation that indeed we do not. But in this we can fellowship with the saint before us.

It was the Apostle Paul himself who said in the Galatians in 416, Have I now become your enemy?

I'll tell you the truth. We take courage today church because some sweet tomorrow we shall see the face of Jesus.

Our savior, our deliverer, our redeemer, our strong tower and our healer.

And we shall be the one who outshines the sun and we shall know as we have been known and we will be shown what we have longed to see.

And all our openness will be limited and He shall make us whole.

Okay, so we'll stop that there. She walks off stage. There's a whole lot there.

I'm going to put a link in the show notes. Someone was kind enough to transcribe that. I sent that to you guys or at least transcribe some of that.

And I'll have that in the show notes along with the Facebook link. Unfortunately, this was Facebook.

I couldn't download it. Therefore, we had some technical issues. Sorry about that. So guys, let's talk through this.

There is a lot here that she said that I think really needs to be exposed.

First off, what's your overall thoughts of why she did this?

What her message was at this conference? Where, by the way, if you didn't notice, there were men in the audience.

Why do you think she's becoming this voice for abuse in the SBC? Jim, you want to go or?

Go ahead. Well, I think a number of reasons. One thing,

Beth Moore is heavily, heavily invested in the social justice movement. And this is one of the cars that follows that social justice engine.

There's a lot of different cars following that engine. And egalitarianism is one of those cars.

And so, yeah, Beth Moore claims to have a high view of scripture. I mean, she just quoted there the

Apostle Paul. And yet, in a recent tweet, she actually seems to...

Here, I'll just read it to you and we can talk about it. She says, no, I was not subtweeting the apostle, but I would like to say something here.

I believe wholeheartedly that all scripture is inspired by God, authoritative truth.

But the persons themselves, Paul and Jesus, are not equals. I know this is hard for some to swallow, but Paul is not our

Savior. Paul would be horrified, I believe, by the way he has been deified.

So Beth Moore seems to take this kind of tack as along the lines of what's called the red letter

Christians that Tony Campolo was well known for beginning that somehow the red letters, the red words are more inspired and authoritative than the

Apostle Paul's words. Beth Moore, as is common for her, she tries to have her cake and eat it too.

She says, yes, I believe that all scripture is inspired, but Paul is not our Savior. Well, nobody ever said

Paul is our Savior, but she's throwing shade on the Apostle Paul and what he says about the roles of men and women.

Beth Moore claims that she's complementarian. I don't believe it. I believe in her heart of hearts. She is egalitarian.

She openly preaches on Sunday morning, corporate worship in clear violation of 1

Timothy 2, verse 12. So she's trying to have her cake and eat it too.

She's trying to keep one foot in the conservative wing, but really, I believe in her heart of hearts, she is egalitarian, and she is part of this social justice train, this worldly philosophy that has invaded the

SBC and other denominations. Jim, what do you think? She obviously gets a lot of positive feedback and affirmation and support from people who want her to go this direction.

You could hear the people applauding in the audience when she said things like that. She is the champion for this voice, not only within the

SBC, but also among people not in the SBC who follow her teachings. She's the champion of that voice of plain outspoken egalitarianism.

And Justin would know better than I do if she claims to be a complementarian. But if she does, she's equivocating on the meaning of the word complementarian, because she wants to affirm that she's a complementarian, and then she wants to come out and smash complementarianism and equate it with misogyny and abuse and all of these high crimes against women throughout all of the history.

And she conflates it with inspiration and orthodoxy. And so she wants to, like Justin says, have her cake and eat it too.

She's attacking complementarians while claiming to not attack complementarians and complementarianism.

And so she's speaking out of both sides of her mouth. And either she's not defining it properly, or nobody has told her what it actually means.

But she's flip -flopping on both sides of that issue. She's clearly attacking an orthodox position with her.

And so therefore, we should really start with some definitions, because we're speaking of terms that may be new to some people, complementarianism, egalitarianism.

The idea that we see in these is the fact, and some people have broader definitions for it, but the issue is really dealing with the women's role in the church.

Can a woman be a pastor? Can she preach a Sunday morning sermon? Can she have authority over men?

This is the issue. Now, the egalitarians would say, no, a woman can do anything a man can do. Women can be pastors.

Women can do as she's doing, preaching at pulpits. And there's different levels some people have.

Some people will say they're complementarian, and they're going to say, well, a woman can preach at a conference as she was doing there, but not on a

Sunday morning service, which she does do anyway. So either way, she's fitting in the definition of egalitarian.

There's some people that have an abusive definition of complementarian, where they're going to say that a woman is to submit to every man, so your wives are supposed to submit to every other man in the church.

That would be an abusive definition and not found anywhere in Scripture. The issue really comes down to what role a woman can have in church.

And so we first have to start there, because I think you're right. She equivocates on this.

I think in what we just heard in this clip, she clearly is defending egalitarianism. But I think what you said,

Justin, is really interesting in this tweet between Paul versus Jesus that she tries to pit, because this exposes a real problem that she has.

And she has very bad thinking. Yeah. The question is not

Paul versus Jesus. No one is deifying Paul. Right.

The question is who wrote the Scriptures that especially those verses she doesn't like.

Reason she's pitting Jesus versus Paul with this red letter view is the fact that Paul wrote things in 1

Timothy 2, 12 to 14 that she doesn't like, because that limits her to not have authority over men, to not be preaching and teaching men.

She doesn't like that. That's where this is coming from. The question really isn't, are people deifying

Paul? The question is, and this isn't an inerrancy question, does she actually believe that what

Paul wrote is from Christ? Not did he actually speak it, but did he,

God, actually write it? That's the issue. Because Jesus didn't write a single verse in Scripture.

He said things that are quotes, but he didn't write a single one the way she's trying to say

Paul did. But it's all written by him. Yeah, and she's making a false dichotomy.

She says that Paul would be horrified, I believe, by the way he has been deified. As you said, you know, nobody is deifying

Paul, but what we know of Paul is recorded in the New Testament, and Paul's words are just as Theonoustas, God -breathed, as Jesus' words.

Paul himself was not deific, but his writings were just as inspired as everything that Jesus said.

There is no difference between the authoritative level of the words of Christ and the words of the

Apostle Paul, because as Paul wrote Scripture, they were Theonoustas. They were God -breathed.

And so she's creating this false dichotomy. She's trying to create a crack between the red letters, if you will, and Paul's words, because Paul said some things that she just does not like.

And earlier in the clip, she says that we have conflated complementarianism with inerrancy, and if we look at people who are egalitarian, we claim that they don't believe in inerrancy.

Well, show me an egalitarian. Show me a denomination that has gone egalitarian that still holds to inerrancy.

It doesn't exist. It's like Bigfoot. You know, there's rumors and grainy photos, but it doesn't really exist.

Every denomination that has gone egalitarian has gone liberal. Every single one of them. Well, the issue,

I think here again, it's conflating, because looking at the transcript right, complementarian theology has become such a high core value that it inadvertently, by proof of what we've seen, look at the fruit of what happened, became elevated above safety and well -being of women.

So high core has it become that in much of the world of complementarian theology is now conflated with inerrancy.

Case in point, notice how often our world changes or dismisses egalitarians by saying they have a low view of Scripture.

Well, you know why we say they have a low view of Scripture? Because they do. True, because when faced with the

Scripture they don't like, like what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, sorry, 1

Timothy 2, 12 to 14, what do they do? They reject it.

They reject what it actually says. They either try to come up with some other meaning for what it says, or they say that's just Paul.

That's not Jesus saying this. What have they done? They've had a low view of Scripture because they're putting

Jesus versus Paul? It's all Scripture. This is why we would say they have a low view of Scripture, because they do.

Right. It's not that we're saying you have to be complementarian to have a high view of Scripture or to be complementarian is equal to inerrancy.

We're saying that if you're going to believe in inerrancy, if you're going to believe God wrote this, then you believe

God wrote all of this, even the parts you don't like. Yep.

Yep, that's right. Yeah, go ahead, Jim. Oh, I was just going to say it's interesting how she very subtly shifts the focus of the debate, because she smuggles something into the discussion here, and it's worth noting.

She says we have deified Paul, and what she's doing there, she's saying if you take

Paul seriously and believe in complementarianism, that's deifying Paul, as in worshiping Paul instead of Jesus.

Well, no, we're taking what Paul says as inspired Scripture and taking it seriously, that a woman should not exercise authority over a man, that the office of preaching and teaching

Scripture in the public worship assembly should be reserved for men and not women. And so she subtly says that if you are a complementarianism, you've deified

Paul. And this is what liberals do constantly. They shift the terms of the discussion to redefine a word so that if you affirm this thing, well, then you're affirming

X, Y, and Z as well. If you affirm A, B, and C, you have to affirm X, Y, and Z. So she'll say things like complementarianism has led to abuse, therefore complementarian theology is abusive theology, and we're against abusing women.

So she begins with that. We're against abusing women. And all of us complementarians say, absolutely, we're against abusing women.

That's horrible. And we should treat women as spiritual equals in the church. That's right. We would affirm that.

We should treat them as spiritual equals in the church. Yes, we're on board with that. Well, complementarianism doesn't treat women as spiritual equals in the church.

Complementarianism leads to abusing women, which you say you're against. And that's when we stop and we say, hold on,

I didn't say I was for abusing women. I am a complementarian, and therefore you're in favor of abusing women.

You see how she smuggles in the definition, a definition of complementarianism in the discussion when she says, we're against abusing women.

We agree. Complementarianism abuses women. Well, that's something that you can't point to.

I don't know of any complementarian that would embrace abusing women.

I know people who take complementarian theology and abuse that theology, which leads to horrible consequences.

But you could do the same thing with egalitarians, too. I know of egalitarians who would lead to horrible consequences and horrible actions from that theology as well.

So she doesn't want to have a discussion on the relevancy of the text. Instead, she wants to smuggle in this concept of abuse.

Well, if you take Paul seriously there, that women shouldn't teach or exercise authority over men, then you must be a complementarian.

And all of us know complementarianism is misogynistic and is abusive to women. And that's just something that we have to, you know, that's a form of begging the question.

She's smuggling that conclusion into the premise of the argument and then arguing from there. Well, I mean, this is filled with logical fallacies, right?

Her topic for this conference is does complementarianism cause abuse?

We heard in the very beginning of the clip. She says, does complementarian theology cause abuse?

The answer is no. She should have got off stage then. Right? I mean, that's the answer.

But then she wants to, like you're saying, smuggle this in because what she does, the rest of what she says is to basically say, yes, it does.

And people that aren't trained in logic or debate, they don't even pick this up because, and you obviously did pick it up,

Jim, right? Because everything she then goes on, the rest of that clip, what she goes on to do is to answer that, yes,

I said the answer is no, but the real answer is yes. Yeah. She says that in the beginning.

She says, no, it doesn't. Abuse is caused by satanic influences and the wickedness of the human heart.

But, you know, and she emphasizes that but, and then she switches gears. But yes, complementarianism does cause abuse.

Imagine if we were to set the terms of the discussion the opposite direction and use the same way of arguing that she does.

We'd say, does egalitarianism lead to an all out apostasy with women in leadership abusing and oppressing men?

Well, no, of course it doesn't. But we all know that egalitarians who put women in leadership had led to the abuse of men.

And here are all the ways that men are abused by egalitarians. And so we've done the exact same thing that she has done.

But just on the other side of the coin, does egalitarianism itself lead to the abuse of men?

No, technically, it doesn't. Does complementarianism itself lead to the abuse of women? No, it doesn't.

But she views abuse as I'm not allowed to preach in the Southern Baptist Church. Therefore, I'm being abused.

And that's a misogynistic position. Well, that's a complementarian position. This is one of the other things

I saw that she slipped in right from the beginning, right? Because she says, it's not the theology, it's demonic or it's sin and gross selfishness and the human heart cause abuse, demonic influences.

However, has the culture prevalent in circles of the SBC formed?

So she's given us the context. Okay. She's answered the question. It's not complementarianism that does this.

So when she goes to address everything else in complementarianism, it is a false argument because she's already answered that question.

But what does she do? She's telling us this is the view of the SBC. So right there, what she's done is another fallacy by equivocating because she's using complementarianism.

Now, if she is attacking the complementarianism that says that all women have to be submissive to all men, well, that's not the

SBC's view. Nor is it a complementarian view. Correct. We'll see some complementarians might say that's their view, but she's given us the context.

She's talking within the SBC. But if that's not the view of the SBC, therefore, she can't be taking that extreme definition to be saying that's what causes the abuse.

She has to stick within the definition for the SBC. Therefore, what she hasn't proven and she'll never prove is that preventing a woman to speak at a pulpit or pastor a church causes them to be abused sexually, which is the issue that the

SBC was addressing. The reality is you can't prove that. It's not going to be there.

She does this over and over again where she's going to try to say, well, this is what the

SBC has to let women preach. That's where she's going to end up going with this. She's finally coming out of the closet with her egalitarianism that we've all known she holds to by practice.

And what I think you end up seeing here is she's going to equivocate on all this stuff to use things that she has.

She's already said that theology isn't the cause. She's already defined it as the SBC. Well, show us where in the

SBC they've done this, because you know what? There's plenty of men. Jim, I know in your church, you got a lot of godly men, but they're not all preaching.

They're not all pastoring. In fact, I know you, you're pretty protective of your pulpit.

You don't let just anybody preach at your pulpit. Is that abusing all those men?

No, I don't think so. We guard the pulpit. We did let you in there a couple of times. Hey, a broken clock is right twice a day.

We don't let every man here preach, and we do have standards that we keep.

We guard the pulpit. In fact, just recently we addressed this very issue with having a local

Gideon's presentation where we've decided now that we're not going to have Gideon's come and present from the

Gideon as a member of our church, and the reason being is because a lot of Gideon's representatives come from churches that don't hold to some of our theology.

Some of them don't hold complementarian theology or cessationist theology. Some of them come from charismatic churches that have horrible doctrine, and in years past, we have allowed them to come and present the

Gideon ministry and to talk to people about what Gideon's are doing, and we just said, no, we're not going to do this anymore.

Under no other circumstance would we allow one of those guys to take our pulpit and address our people. So, why should them being a

Gideon all of a sudden give them a pass for that? But that's not because we don't like those people or we hate those people or anything like that.

It's not being abusive. Justin, I want to ask you this question because there's something she said toward the end that just totally shocked me that she would have the audacity to say this.

So, I wrote it down because this wasn't in the transcript that I found online of it, but she said, those who cannot be questioned cannot be trusted.

I was blown away because, you know, on this podcast, we had Michelle Leslie come on with an open letter that several women had signed asking her, questioning her about her position on homosexuality, and she basically slammed those women as saying, well, they didn't come through the proper channels.

They didn't do it the right way. They don't have it. They shouldn't be doing this. And going after and attacking the women who had the nerve to question her.

So, Justin, by her own word, does this mean that we can officially say Beth Moore cannot be trusted because she cannot be questioned?

Absolutely. Absolutely. The open letter was very clear. It was very succinct. Softball questions.

I mean, the ball was sitting on the team begging to be knocked out of the park. And Beth Moore dodged.

And she did just exactly what she did in this video. She says, oh, I affirm all scripture.

I believe that all scripture is authoritative. But she did not answer the simple, direct questions.

So, yeah, she cannot be questioned. She is that of whom cannot be touched.

She is, I tell people, if Southern Baptist had a female pope, it would be

Beth Moore. You cannot question her. Sometimes I'm just gobsmacked at her lack of self -awareness.

The things that comes out of her mouth is just utter hypocrisy. And that's a great example of what you just cited.

Yeah, she's above that. She's above us little peons asking questions. She's above these ladies submitting the open letter.

She just won't lower herself to that standard and ask questions that should be very easy to answer.

And this is why I say, I mean, this is hypocritical to her. She's playing the victim in this being like, oh, look, you can't question these leaders about this stuff.

But no one can question her either. So that's part of the social justice mode of operation.

That's how they operate is you're always the victim, this perpetual victimhood status.

I'm the victim. I've been oppressed. And that's exactly what Beth Moore is doing. She is playing the social justice victimhood card.

You know, poor Beth Moore, all these people picking on her. Yeah, I'm convinced that Beth Moore is,

I mean, and here's another thing that the social justice tactics, part of the social justice tactics, is that they use conservative lingo, but they redefine those terms.

They will use the terms with which we would identify, but they ascribe to those terms different meanings.

For example, in the topic of our conversation here, yes, I'm complementarian.

I just believe that a woman can preach to the gathered body on Sunday morning.

Well, if you believe that, then you're not complementarian. Yes, I believe that all

Scripture is inspired. I just don't think Paul's words are inspired as Jesus.

Well, then you don't believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of Scripture. I believe God speaks to me today, but what he says to me is not as inspired as Scripture is.

You see, they make these false dichotomies, and they try to wrap themselves in a conservative mantle, but they completely redefine the terms.

It's like what the Roman Catholic Church does with grace. Oh, yes, we believe in grace.

We just believe you have to merit it. Well, then it's no longer grace. See what I'm saying? So they use the same terms, but they ascribe different meanings to these terms.

But see, in our culture that we're in today, it has been so confused that in her mind, this now makes sense.

I mean, you have people that are, when you look at this whole thing with gender and just the nonsense that goes on where people are, my wife and I were just talking about this earlier today, like we're waiting, the health industry is, you know, they're companies that provide health care for women to get pregnant.

Women. You know, I'm waiting for our culture to be like, well, that's not fair. I, as a man, want to get pregnant.

I think you need to pay for medical so that I can be pregnant. Well, it goes against the very definition, right?

I think this was an interesting quote she had, and I thought that this shows how she gets spun up in her rhetoric and doesn't even think about what she's saying.

She said, far too many SBC congregations and SBC seminaries. So few women are in any visible area of leadership that women who are being abused by the system itself or within it by people that are in a place of power don't have any female to turn to.

They don't even know where to go. You know where I would go if I wanted a female opinion?

My bride. Same here. They can't find a woman.

They don't know where they are. In my house. That's where they are, you know, and where do the, you know, if you're going to, if you're trying to say that she's saying this, that the women being abused have nowhere to turn to because all the men in leadership, that assumes that every man in leadership is an abuser.

And every woman in the church is complicit with it. If you have nowhere to go. Yeah. You're telling me that there's not an equal number of women in the average

Southern Baptist church and there are men. I would bet that in most Southern Baptist churches, there are more women than there are men.

She's going to argue that the women aren't in leadership because think about what, so you have a couple of different ways to parse this.

And with her, you end up having to parse it different ways because she is never clear in her words. If you're going to parse it that the men in leadership don't have a woman to turn to because there's not a woman in leadership.

Well, they don't need a woman in leadership to turn to a woman. If it's at the women are being abused because there's no women in leadership that can put a stop to this.

Well, okay. First off, you put a woman in leadership. If her, if her thinking is correct and every man is an abuser and every woman, the victim putting a woman in leadership doesn't change it because the man's still going to abuse the woman that's in leadership.

Right. But when she argues that she's not an egalitarian, there's no way you could take this quote and say she's complementarian.

There's no way because what is she arguing for? Women in leadership. The very definition issue that we're bringing up.

So I think the one thing that really is clear is she has finally come out and made it very clear she's not a complementarian.

She's very much against it. Yeah. And she, she does another sort of slight of hand here is that she begins to speak about she begins to speak in all these generalities again, that we would agree with that abuse is wrong, et cetera.

And, but then she describes these situations where women are in these churches. They have nowhere to go to and they're being abused.

And the men who are abusing them are just protecting the shepherds, shepherds, guarding shepherds and not shepherds, guarding sheep.

She mentions that at one time. And my challenge to her would be, where is this church? What, which church is it?

Give me the name and the city that it's in the name of this church. And who are the leaders? Can you point me specifically to anything that fits this description?

And chances are good, you would not be able to point us to any Southern Baptist church that fits this description.

And, and, and so she speaks in these generalities and, and, but without naming any specifics as if, as if what she is describing is so widespread that it deserves the entire revamping of the entire

SBC to, to remedy the situation. You know, we have, we have one of the speakers at Striving for Eternity.

He's a SBC pastor, Pastor Frank Mullis. He's involved right now with a pastor who the, the

SBC group, the local group is preventing a guy. They basically, he was, he resigned from a church over claims of sexual abuse.

It was a strange thing and he stepped down and some other church brought him in and all the guys, the

SBC pastors, local pastors said, no, that's not going to happen.

And so there, so what do you have? You have men in leadership in SBC, putting a stop to a man who wants to be a pastor again, who has, you know, been involved in, in some questionable practices as a leader.

So right there, this isn't, as she puts it to every, like every SBC church and it's everywhere in the

SBC, she does this strange analogy. I don't know if you guys really understood this.

I mean, I think what she does is she gets like herself, kind of like the, the African American pastors where they get into the cadence and everyone just gets into it and they don't think about what they're saying.

I have a friend of mine that says, you know, black pastor can preach Little Miss Muffet and people will amen it. And I was like, it can't happen.

We were in this missionary housing and he's like, he's doing it with the whole cadence and this woman is walking past and go, amen, preach it.

And he's preaching Little Miss Muffet. I think she gets into that because she's like, if complementarianism were a woman,

I tell you that the woman is being abused and someone needs to call the police and start investigating and God help us if the police are in on it.

And now I will enter the witness protection program. What in the world was she saying? She's playing the victim card again.

So is it complementarianism that is being abused or is it complementarianism that is abusive? That's unclear.

She, she, she's having that both ways. You know what, you know what, Andrew, there's an aspect of this that just makes me sick.

And that is that Beth Moore has put me in a place where I have to defend SBC churches and pastors. I was about to say, we're a lot comfortable here in SBC.

Oh my goodness. It's a new low in American evangelicalism when Justin and I have to come to the defense of the

SBC. Well, see, I've never been part of a denominational church. I've always been independent

Baptist. I've never supported denominations anyway. But you know, it was interesting at the end of this, because you said she plays the victim card.

She quotes a passage from Ephesians and she does it so she could play the victim card in, in she quotes it where she's saying, you know, well, we're, we're being attacked because we're speaking the truth.

What truth is she speaking? She, she said is competent. The topic of her thing is complementarian, complementarian theology causing the abuse.

The answer is no. So she's not speaking the truth on complementarian theology.

She says in the thing that we just read, right, that she's talking about complementarianism causing the abuse, but yet it's not.

She's also saying in this quote that complementarianism itself is being abused. So, you know, you're like, what truth is she actually saying?

The, the, when you read through this whole thing, the truth she's claiming is egalitarianism.

That's what she's defending. Yeah. She's, as I said a minute ago, she is using the same lingo, but she is ascribing new definitions to that lingo.

This is part of what the social justice movement does. They take your language and they redefine it.

And, and this is how she gets away with it though, is because of the fact that she does this, it's a smoke screen.

People don't see it because they hear what she's saying. They hear the emotion she has in it and they, they feel she's right.

But when you parse what she actually says, she says she's complementarianism while defending egalitarianism.

She says that complementarian theology doesn't cause abuse while she defends that it does cause abuse.

You, you, you know, there is that thing where people say one thing, but their actions speak louder than their words.

Well, what she's defending speaks louder than what she's claiming. She might have a solid statement of faith, but her actions and what she defends deny it.

It, it's much in the same vein as you hear Democrats on the political level.

We're, we're patriotic. We love the United States. We're patriotic. We just believe the United States of America is the single largest cause of evil in the world.

We're, we're patriotic. We love the United States. We just believe it's the most unfair country and it oppresses the poor.

It's that kind of thing. They, they, they claim the patriotic label and then they go to trash the country.

Social justicians claim evangelical lingo, claim conservative lingo, and, but they redefine those terms and make them mean something that they never meant.

You just triggered Jim there. I'm patriotic, but I fundamentally transformed the

United States of America, right? Yeah. Well, he did just in a bad way. But no,

I, I was actually thinking of a different politician when, when you started talking about that, because I was thinking

Hitler. Everyone likes to say Hitler was a Christian and you, what did he do with Bible believing

Christians? He killed him. He put him in prison. He used Christianity and said,

I'm a Christian. Look, I'll, I'll put it on my, my logo, but he didn't believe it by his practice, by what he wrote.

If you actually read what he wrote, you realize he wasn't a Christian. He, he, he was a human secularist.

You know, do you guys get the feeling with Beth Moore that part of this coming out against complementarianism is, is a, is a run or an assertion of her own, her own qualifications to take over as the president of the

SBC? Do you think that that is an end game play that she might be making with this? I, I don't

Jim, I don't. And here, and here's why I don't. A couple of things. I believe that even if the president of the

SBC, that position, if it was handed to her on a silver platter by fiat saying

Beth Moore next year, we are going to install you as the president of the

Southern Baptist convention. She would turn it down. I fully believe she would turn it down because she doesn't want it.

She doesn't want it. Even if it was given to her, she doesn't want that position because her current gig is too good.

She wouldn't, she wouldn't take it. Even if it was offered to her on a silver, on a silver platter. But that having been said, the fact that these conversations are even taking place in the

SBC, that there's the fact that there's even serious discussion about her possibly being the president of the

Southern Baptist convention tells you that the SBC has lost. The battle has been lost.

The war has been lost. If the SBC was as conservative and was as faithful to scripture as it claims to be, we wouldn't be having these kind of,

I say we, I'm not in the SBC anymore, but they wouldn't be having these conversations. Those conversations wouldn't be taking place.

It's just like in the United States of America, what, according to Gallup, roughly 70 % of the people in the

United States of America claim to be Christians. Well, if that number were even remotely close to be true, we wouldn't be debating abortion.

We wouldn't, we wouldn't have enshrined homosexual marriage by the

Supreme Court of the United States. We wouldn't even be having those discussions. So the very fact that those conversations and discussions are even taking place shows you that you've, yeah, that you've lost.

The Southern Baptist denomination ends up enhancing the gig that she currently has.

Well, that's what I think she's doing this for. I was going to say, I kind of agree with Justin, but for a different reason.

I think she would reject it because she will gain more power in the

SBC, attacking the abuse and being the spokesman for all

SBC women. She will gain more power than being president,

I believe, because the president won't be able to do anything without first checking with her. That's where I think it's going to end up being, and then she gets a much bigger platform without having to deal with any of the issues of being president.

Which is basically the way it is now. I mean, J .D. Greer and Beth Moore joined at the hip.

Yeah, and by being the president, if she was president, what would end up happening would be she would have to deal with a whole lot of other issues than just going out to conferences and speaking and doing what she does.

She'd have to deal with a whole bunch of things she doesn't like doing, probably. I mean, being the president of SBC is dealing with a lot of issues, and she doesn't deal with issues.

She avoids them. So it's a role that she wouldn't be able to really do that in. So being in a role that I think she's set up for is where the

SBC can't do anything without first checking with Beth Moore. Name me one prominent

SBC leader who is actually in a position of leadership within the convention.

Name me one single man who has the courage to speak out against Beth Moore.

There are none. None in positions of leadership. None. None. No seminary president will do it.

The president of the convention will not do it. The president of NAMM will not do it. IMB will not do it.

Nobody on the executive committee will do it. Nobody would. Now, you have a few guys like Tom Buck and Tom Askell, but they're not in any official position of leadership.

No one in the hierarchical structure of the

SBC has the courage or the theological wherewithal to go against Beth Moore.

Okay, so here's the challenge. Here's the challenge. We have a seminary president who does a daily podcast,

Al Mohler, The Briefing. What's the purpose of it? Deals with social issues. Deals with how things that are going to affect

Christianity. Will he address this clip?

He addresses all these other issues. Will he address what Beth Moore's defense of egalitarianism in this clip?

The way that Beth Moore has cast this conversation is going to make it even more difficult because, again, how she smuggled into the discussion some of the assumptions and the presuppositions.

If Al Mohler does come out and address this, of course, it's going to be seen as an attack because that's how she has framed the discussion.

If you come out against my position on egalitarianism and complementarianism, well, that's just you as a male in leadership of the

Southern Baptist Convention and the Southern Baptist Churches and seminary. That's just you, again, putting women down, oppressing women, trying to put us in our place.

So that, again, is just evidence then. If he does speak out, it's evidence of what she's said because of how she's framed the debate.

You can't even have a conversation now about complementarianism versus egalitarianism or whether complementarianism equals misogyny, which is basically her presupposition.

You can't even have a conversation about that now without coming out and looking like a misogynist and abusive a complementarianism.

You're abusing complementarianism because she says, I'm a complementarian, and complementarianism doesn't lead to abuse, but complementarianism leads to abuse.

So now if you come out as a complementarianism, a complementarianist, she can put you in either the abused category where she is at or the abuser category, whichever is most convenient for her.

So yeah, I'd be great for Mark Dever, for Al Mohler, for any of those guys in the

Southern Baptist denomination to come out and to address this and to throw their full weight behind pushing back against this abusive scripture that Beth Moore is promoting.

But to even open their mouth and to mention Beth Moore and call her wrong is going to put them in the misogynist, complementarian, abuser, oppressive of women category.

Just the very act of speaking out is going to put them in that camp. And all she has to do is sit back and play the victim again and put out on Twitter that, oh, people that are abusing me and I need to take a break from Twitter for a week and kind of go to be alone with the

Lord and just get off of this. She's got to just play the victim. And there's no way that Al Mohler, if he had the courage to speak out, he could ever walk away as anything other than a villain.

Well, I'll frame it a little differently. I mean, because she does say in this thing, misogyny has no place in those who are being conformed to the image of Christ.

Well, okay, we can agree. But I would also add to that, that it's not us attacking her.

She's, you're right. She's framed it that way. It's us attacking her. I'm not attacking her. I'm attacking what she said.

Why? Because what she said is an attack on the Bible, on God, on biblical

Christianity, even against the SBC that is supporting her. She's attacking the very organization that props her up because she's saying they're all guilty of this.

I'm attacking what she is believing because what she's believing is an attack on me, on biblical

Christianity, on my Lord and Savior. She's the one doing the attacking. Remember, she's the one trying to change the terminology.

She has already stated that the view of complementarianism does not cause this sexual abuse that's being addressed in the

SBC. Therefore, now we're done with that. So everything else she's saying is not to answer the premise that she's there to answer.

Yeah. Everything else is her support for something that is anti -biblical and not found in Scripture.

It's actually very clear in Scripture. She just doesn't like it. So she wants to attack

God's very order of things. Well, who else is it that we see who attacks the very order that God has set up?

Satan. So as we close out, Jim, you have a couple books that you have written that would be excellent resources for people who may be challenged by what we're saying about the way people think

God speaks to them because Beth Moore has people, you know, God speaks to her about brushing people's hair.

You have some excellent books that might help with some of the nonsense that we see that she's actually starting to be pulled into, and we're starting to see, and a reason

I think Beth Moore is so dangerous is because she's still in the conservative circles while not only preaching the liberal theology, but word of faith theology.

So why don't you give some folks the books you've written so people can get some good resources to get a hold of?

Yeah, one that's out right now that kind of deals a little bit with a lot of the stuff that's connected with things that Beth Moore says concerning demons and Satan, etc.,

is Truth, a Territory, a Biblical Approach to Spiritual Warfare. Currently, I haven't written it, but I am writing it currently, is a book on whether God speaks to us through visions and dreams and still small voices and nudgings and promptings and impressions and themes and all the other nonsense, extra biblical revelation.

I'm currently in the process of writing a book on that and hoping that that will be out by year's end, but see, this is

October, probably early next year is kind of my goal. I'm hoping to do it by this fall.

But I am going to be dealing with that issue in an upcoming book. You know, Justin, you have a book out that I think would be helpful because really what's a big issue here is understanding

God's Word and what it means to be converted. And you have a book that may seem to some folks strange because your book is about child baptizing children, and yet really the core part of it is, what is conversion?

Why don't you talk about your book? Sure. Yeah, the title of the book is Do Not Hinder Them, A Biblical Examination of Childhood Conversion.

And I hate to say the title is misleading, but it is a little bit counterintuitive because Do Not Hinder Them actually deals with the precautions that we must take with children before we rush them off to the baptistry.

Just because they've made intellectual ascent to some basic gospel facts does not mean that conversion has taken place.

Conversion should look the same in everyone, regardless of their age, whether you're talking about a 15 -year -old kid or an 85 -year -old man or whatever.

There should be a godly sorrow over sin. There should be a growth in sanctification, a decreasing pattern of sin in our lives, increasing pattern of holiness, a love for the brethren, a love for God's Word, a desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ, a desire to be able to—an ability, rather, to be able to withstand persecution and temptation.

And that's just not something you'll be able to ascertain in a young child. They're just too young.

Yeah. And I think that, folks, if you're listening, if you're watching it on YouTube, this is also a podcast.

You can listen to, subscribe to my podcast, The Wrap Report, Wrap With Two Ps, Andrew Rapport's Wrap Report.

The long one is where this one will air. If you're listening to it, I also have a daily Monday through Friday podcast.

It's just two minutes long. Give you, basically, quick answers to some questions people get, some challenges people get.

So, we defend the faith in two minutes. Give you quick answers, things that we put the transcript there so you can copy and paste it as well.

So, you can go to strivingforeturning .org to get all of the different questions that we've answered on there.

Justin has a podcast. We started dropping some of his older episodes.

It's called Didache. And you're going, well, I can't spell that. Okay, just search for Justin Peters and look for Didache.

You know, only Justin will come up with a Greek word for an English podcast, you know? Hey. So, make sure you subscribe to his podcast.

If you are ever in Northern Idaho, make sure you go to Kootenay Community Church, which is where Pastor Jim pastors.

You want to check that out. I will state, Jim, if people watch the video on the

Striving for Eternity page, the YouTube channel, earlier we got to see something when

Justin was speaking. There was this little, I mean, really small ball of hair that kind of moved.

I mean, I think Justin calls it a dog. Yeah, he would call it a dog.

It's so small we couldn't really see it. Look, any man can have a big lab or a

German shepherd. It takes a real man to be secure in his manhood to have a little 10 -pound frou -frou dog like I've got.

Hey, I don't need a German shepherd to make me secure in my manhood. Justin needs a dog that he can outrun.

Oh, that's great. Well, I thank both you guys for coming on. It's always a joy. By the time this podcast airs,

Justin, you're going to Truth Matters, right? I am. Yeah, looking forward to it.

The joke there is Justin's speaking at Truth Matters and I actually asked him if he was going and he's just like, oh yeah,

I'm going to go. And then afterwards I realized, wait, you're speaking. He's like, yeah, I didn't want to embarrass you. They're like, of course,

I'm going, I'm speaking. So, by the time this airs and podcast, we'll be at Truth Matters.

If folks haven't listened to last week's episode of The Rap Report that I did with Jamal Bandy, anyone who's followed this

Amber Geyer case, this Dallas police officer that shot the gentleman

Botham Jean, we covered that, but we covered it different than every other podcast or anything that we've heard.

I've been listening to a bunch of people deal with that issue. Nobody had the perspective that I had.

I even spoke to the guys at Just Thinking and Virgil was like, yeah, I never even thought of that.

There's another angle of this that has to be considered, isn't being considered. So, go check out that episode of The Rap Report on her and dealing with the whole issue of is this a racism versus justice issue?

I do not know what's going to be next week's podcast because I'll be down with Justin at the

Truth Matters conference. I may grab some interviews from there. I'll have my equipment. So, we may play some interviews.

Maybe we'll do that or something, but check it out either way. Make sure you subscribe.

I want to thank you guys again. I really appreciate the ministry that God has in your lives.

It is a blessing to me and so many others. So, thank you for coming on and helping with this.

Thanks, brother. Thank you. Our pleasure. And then, folks, we want to remind you to remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry. For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

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