Pastor Durbin vs. "Roman Catholic" Attorney

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I want to read something, just one thing, too, and I'm done. I'm done. This is it. You said you're working your way into Salvation, right?

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I want you to take these words to the heart, okay? Titus 3, 5, where he says, or 4, he says,

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But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the

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Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

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So we're being justified by grace, like it is a mercy of God. You can work from now until the end of your days and still end up in a real place called hell, a

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Christless eternity. I don't want that for you. You can't work your way to Salvation. And listen, coming from a Catholic background,

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I believe as you did, I'm gonna keep working my way till I get there, and the Bible says you can't, but you know,

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By works of the flesh shall no flesh be justified.

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You can't justify yourself by works. Not only that. And I'm familiar with that.

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I instantly thought of St. Paul. It's a letter. Yes. Oh, watch out. I just Titus reference through me because I'm not familiar with that.

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But yes, it's a letter. That's one of Paul's letters, yeah. And, you know, historically, James, the wing of the

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Church of James and the wing of the Church of Paul had, you know, what's fascinating to me is the

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Gospels have, it's an interesting work of these, assuming all of the words in there were all of the words originally said by those people who were either apostles or closely associated with Jesus.

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Yeah. Just assume if you read those words and they're inspired by God, there's differences in the words and there's differences to the opinion.

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So I think there's... Can you explain that when you say there's differences? Sure. I get like an example. Paul had an evangelical, to use a short term,

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Paul had an evangelical approach, such as that letter, that excerpt of the letter you read, while James had a much more, uh, what

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I call an old Catholic school, your good works are what you'll be judging. I know exactly who you're talking about, brother.

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Mind if I... Please, please. I'm Jeff, by the way. Hi, Jeff. I'm Mike. Mike. I didn't introduce myself. Pleasure to meet you.

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For all the obvious reasons, I appreciate, and you weren't hostile, you were worried about what manner

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I was coming here in. We appreciate you out here. We see you out here as God sent you out here to hear this.

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So you're, it seems, Mike, you're saying that there's a difference between Paul's explanation of how a person is justified or has peace with God versus James, like there's two different schools of thought.

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I think there are, from those original works that we have. We have

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James's letter, so are you, what are you taking from James, where you think he's in opposition to what

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Paul is saying? Well, James wrote a whole gospel that's... I got it right here, brother.

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Well, he didn't write, he wrote a gospel, it's the letter of James. Given my upbringing, that's how, and the only difference, it really doesn't matter what one calls them.

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He wrote more, well, I guess it does. There's sort of a hierarchy, at least in my mind, my belief system.

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Gospels are the works that God inspired those people to write.

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Okay. Letters are those people's human messages to folks who were at illiterate.

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So you disagree with St. Peter? I don't know, obviously. Peter says that there were unstable men who were twisting and distorting

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Paul's, his letters. He says, as they do the rest of the scriptures, so he equates

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Paul's letters with the, what is theonoustos, breathed out by God, Old Testament scriptures.

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So he disagrees with you, Peter does, that Paul's letters are just his letters, his own personal opinion.

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He says they're the very scripture of God. So here's the great thing about religion and religious beliefs.

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Can you answer that though, before you change the subject? I think there are other people who wrote gospels who had different opinions.

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Well, I'm referring to how St. Peter talks about Paul's writings. You disagree with him. I don't disagree that that was

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St. Peter's editorializing, not his gospel, but his editorializing on...

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Are you a Roman Catholic? Well, a loose one. Yeah, it's better to say

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I was raised in the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. I have never fallen from the church, so to speak.

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I have certain... Do you believe that Peter was the first pope? I believe Peter went to Rome and founded the church.

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Would you say that, would you say he was like the chief of the apostles? No, I think all the apostles, some of them were better orators and writers than others, frankly.

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I think they were all... I don't think even, I mean, I think if we take the words that are attributed to Jesus as true, then we have to allow that even the worst of the disciples, you know, the deniers and the doubters and the traitors were equal apostles with the others.

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What I was trying to do was try to communicate with you on some ground that I would hope that you accept as a

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Roman Catholic, and that was Peter has a pretty important position as an apostle in the Roman Catholic Church, but you don't accept that.

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That's fine. I don't accept he was the... And I'll tell you,

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Catholicism teaches you that Peter was the favored Roman Catholic. Right, that's why I was pointing you to his words where he disagrees with you.

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I think Jesus believed all of his human companions were people who were trying to be of faith and find meaning in God's word.

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Right. I believe that's true, and I think he recognized, and I think maybe his greatest teaching was his ability to forgive those who caused him to be killed for heaven's sakes.

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Right. What a wonderful, wonderful... Well, not to get too far off the path here, I'm pointing to the fact that the apostles themselves disagree with your assessment of their writings.

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You're saying it's just their personal writings, their opinions, and Peter actually equates them... Well, Peter equates

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Paul's writings with scripture. That's the Old Testament revelation, the word of God. And so... Well, if you look at what they were doing at the time in terms of when they were doing the works, the gospels are accounts where they sat down and said, this miraculous thing happened, and we have enough space and distance from it now to recount these things because we were told to by our boss,

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Jesus, and we feel inspired by God to do so. Those, I think, are the gospels. When they then went out into the world,

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I believe... Trying to remember who went where. I believe

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James... No, Paul went to... Everywhere. Yeah, but he started up towards Turkey.

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Right. James went to Egypt. Well, James was killed in Jerusalem. He was actually in Jerusalem.

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Actually, James remained an ardent Jew who advocated for that there wasn't a separate religion of Christianity, that it actually was a part of Judaism.

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Well, that's what the New Testament argues that Christianity is. We are the sons and daughters of Abraham, so we would agree that we are true spiritual

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Jews. Those who reject Christ, Jesus calls the synagogue of Satan, even though they are Jewish by ethnicity.

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But back to the point. You're arguing that James gives a different version of how a person has peace with God than the apostle

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Paul. So can I ask you where you would get that idea from James? Sure, from the text of their different messages.

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What in James makes you think that James disagrees with Paul? I have not read those...

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So you don't... You're making a claim about a conflict in Scripture that you can't even demonstrate.

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But, and I understand you came later to the conversation. This part of our discussion is my respectful attempt to listen to you, to genuinely actively listen to what you're saying.

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Because I think the path... I think there's a danger, frankly, in reaching a conclusion that the words mean one certain thing.

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But you did argue that the words meant something in James. You believed, and I guess the main point here is,

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Elvis is trying to give you the good news that you can have peace with God through faith in Christ apart from your own sin and unrighteousness.

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I stop for different reasons. I've spent time, good time, valuable time, not wasting time, having this discussion.

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Well, I guess I wanted you to hear my heart on this. My main concern for you was to hear what Elvis is pointing you to, that the

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Bible teaches we conclude that a man is justified, declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

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You know what, if I'm going to jump in real quick... Unfortunately, I have to go serve Caesar.

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Okay, I get it. Like, the issue isn't, you know, Peter and James, and the issue is justification.

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Like, the Reformation, the crux of the Reformation was justification by faith or by works.

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How was a man justified before God? You've heard a few things about James conflicting with Peter or Paul.

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Those things aren't true. Those are in -house discussions. I was just ready to actually discuss it, but that's not your issue.

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Your issue is, you know, your heart getting right with God. You need to be born again. Remember we talked about that earlier? Unless a man is born again, he will not enter the kingdom of God.

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That's your issue. Wrestle with that tonight. Say, what must a man do to be born again? Your first birth is in Adam.

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It's in sin. It'll lead you to hell. Your second birth is a spiritual birth. It's in Christ.

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That's what it means to be born again. And that is what God is looking for in you.

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He wants you to be born again. He sent you out here to hear this message. Because you said you're seeking, right? Always.

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You said you're always seeking. And you drove, you said for 20 years you've been driving past this place. And God put you out here to hear this message,

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Mike? Well, I think I exercised my gift from God, my free will. Yeah.

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Out of concern for, genuine concern. Yeah. For you all. Because I think you better serve your mass.

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Yeah. We have an... Don't worry about that right now, brother. Except you admit your mass doesn't work. Well, it's what

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I have. Yeah, but it doesn't work. Yeah. But again, we can go down that rabbit trail again. Jesus did what he could with what he had.

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Yeah. We can go down that rabbit trail. Listen, we're all going to die someday. Jesus is God. Mass or no mass, we're all going to die.

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And we're all going to stand before God on judgment day. The Bible says, appointed for man once to die and then comes a judgment.

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There's no purgatory, by the way. Purgatory is a myth. It doesn't exist. You stand before God. And the

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Bible says, every man will be judged on that day. It's either you're in or you're out. You're in heaven or you're in hell.

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There's no middle. There's no net that's going to catch you. And someone's going to absolve your sins some meritorious works for the next 10 ,000 years.

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I absolutely understand. So you do agree with that? There's a difference. And it's a sad part of our society.

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Yeah. As we just witnessed. By the way, I filmed that atrociousness. Sure. I didn't think that that's not right.

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They have a right to, I suppose, to exercise their freedom of speech that way. Sure. I wish that we...

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And on this issue, there is no middle ground for folks. I understand. On what issue? On abortion.

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Oh, yeah. And as I said, I'm not here to try to... Because our opinion is... ...anybody out of not being here. I think you have an absolute right to be here.

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Yeah. And I think you and I probably would have more in common at a personal level regarding this issue than we would have apart.

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Sure. That's not the purpose of me. I am not those people. And Mike, you know... Oh, I see that. Yeah. Very, very different.

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Isaiah said... I'm just asking you to watch out for your brothers and sisters. Maybe there's more for you than one.

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Maybe look at some newer literature. I actually refused to wear masks originally based on the same things that I heard about here today from your colleagues.

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There's much better, newer science. And I think if we're true believers in faith and we truly are striving to help to encourage those and encourage ourselves to do what we think we need to do to earn that salvation, that trying to accept the work of good people, trying to do honest work...

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Well, that would be the key thing, Mike. It's just what you said there. That allows us to live as long as we can. To earn our salvation.

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You just said that. Yeah. Yeah. That's the key issue. I think you haven't quite heard yet is that you cannot...

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I understand that you can't earn it. I understand. Right. But you just said to earn it.

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That's my belief. Right. And I was saying that's my main concern for you. That you're not looking to Christ.

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Right. I understand. Yeah. And I appreciate that. It's His righteousness we all need. His perfection. Your life and my life before a holy

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God are unrighteous, sinful. And God is a holy God and a just judge. And He cannot simply let our sins go.

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So they either went to Christ on the cross and we received the gift of His righteousness through faith. Or you and I will stand before God judged because of our guilty life.

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I tend to believe it's a combination of the two. God is not unjust. He cannot give a pass over...

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Which I absolutely believe. He's not a God of confusion either. Well... He's not a God of confusion. There are a fair number of people who will never hear of Christ.

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Never. And I can't believe... One, I don't believe all those people are bad. I believe there's probably lots of good people.

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The Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There's none good, no not one, none who seeks for God.

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That's everybody. That's by the way, Paul quoting from the Katina verses from the Old Testament. That's the testimony of scripture.

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You said you have free will. Jesus says you're a slave to sin. You think you're free.

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You're making choices, yes. But you're not free. You're a slave. That's what

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Jesus said. We see our opinions have to come from a source, right? No. Where's your...

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Okay. So Jesus says we're a slave to sin. Do you disagree with him?

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I disagree. Jesus said that. Okay. What is your textual critical analysis that allows you to believe that?

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Because there is, as far as I know in the manuscript tradition of the thousands and thousands of manuscripts that go all the way back to those early centuries of the church.

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They all say the same thing. I will agree. You all are much more well -prepared today than I would be to have that debate with you.

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Well, can I just challenge you with this, Mike? Mike, just real fast. I want to just read it graciously to you.

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I want you to hear this. This isn't a matter of a battle of wits. I want to say this to you, Mike. You're making a lot of claims about scripture and how a person knows

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God that you can't even justify. You've adopted beliefs that you've never examined.

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After a lifetime. That's an unfair statement that I haven't examined it. Well, I gave you a verse from Jesus where he says you're a slave to sin, and you said that Jesus didn't say that.

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But you have no basis to say he didn't say that. I guess the analogy I would use is I could tell you what cases give you the right to do what you're doing.

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Can you tell me what those cases are? If you can't, you should leave. That would be a very bad argument. No, but we're talking about spiritual matters here.

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Yeah, but I would give you an answer if I told you why I believed we can do this. I would give you answers from scripture.

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I'd give you answers from the law. I would give you answers from the Constitution itself. I'd be happy to do that.

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The Constitution, but the cases that actually support it. And it would be unfair of me because you didn't come here today to debate the

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Constitution. Well, I can, if you want, I can show you a couple of court cases that demonstrate us being able to do this.

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New York City fought against Jehovah's Witnesses for using amplification in a public park. Yeah, Cybers in New York.

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We've talked about that. So, but I get the key issue here. I'm pleased. Can I leave you with two things?

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I'll tell you, you've probably figured this out. I am a lawyer. I would, I would encourage you to think about,

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I'm not telling you you have to do it. If I were representing you on a case involving this,

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I would encourage you to look at the additional data about this. And I would encourage you to do one other thing is, it's great that you have the sound monitor that you're checking regularly.

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I would have you, if you came to me and said, how can we best protect ourselves legally?

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I would say, as well as you can, because it's not the sound from there, that's necessarily the highest.

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It may be from over there. I would, in some context that if you have a, you know, a brick and mortar meeting center, use your parking lot, kind of mock out the same thing and monitor at different spectrums.

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So then you'd have a really clear record of if we're not violating that standard. Well, I appreciate the counsel on that and encouragement.

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But my main concern for you, Mike, is for your soul. And you said, earn your salvation.

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I'm going to point you to this verse, John 5, 24. Jesus says this. Please hear me on this. He says, truly, John 5, 24.

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He said, truly, truly. Genuinely, I've got. No, you know, you have to take it. He said, truly, truly, truly.

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I say to you, he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Those who hear and believe they truly trust in Christ have not will have not might have have eternal life.

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They've gone from death, spiritual death to life. And that's what I want for you, Mike. The call of the gospel is to turn from your sin to come to Christ.

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My life and your life are a wreck before God. We are guilty. You need a righteousness that is perfect.

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That's who Jesus is. And you receive that through faith. I appreciate the discussion. Thank you,