Utah Coming Full Circle

Apologia Utah

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00:17

Thanks, guys. Andrew, brother Wade. What's up, guys? What's going on? Chillin', bro.

00:23

Andrew, here we are. We might as well just say it. Both of you are here because your desire is to plant…

00:31

We're planting a church in the Utah area. And it's interesting too because like Coltish has the same mission that you have, that both of you have and like somehow and you're still part of it.

00:46

So it's just interesting to see how this whole thing plays out. But maybe for anyone who's kind of new to this and understands that in many ways, this is going to be new for if you follow

00:55

Apologia or if you follow Coltish, really almost going from outside of the studio, talking to people to actually engaging firsthand the world of the kingdom of the

01:08

Colts. Just like this past week in comparison to the first time that we were all out here on this porch, what's changed?

01:17

What have you seen that especially now in light of like two years ago?

01:23

Sure. Just share with me your mind of like where you guys are at right now. Yeah. You know, I think coming here two years ago for the first time, you know, obviously everyone was an object of my evangelism, the object, an object of the gospel.

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And everyone still is. And yet, as I consider, as I'm being commissioned and sent by Apologia Church back from Arizona, I feel like I'm developing a more pastoral mindset for these people.

01:59

And even so, over the last few years, I'm developing a greater love for these people as well.

02:07

So it's funny, I've talked to you guys about this a little bit.

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I feel as if coming here, I at least sensationalize things a little bit.

02:22

With that said, it is a dark place. You go downtown, you see the

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Capitol star, that pentagram, you see Brigham's house.

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The Beehive house. The Beehive house. You see the statue of him pointing. Yeah, you see the temple, you see the pentagrams on the temple, all the

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Masonic handshake, all the symbols. You see everyone acting almost robotically when you interact with missionaries.

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Everything's scripted. It feels like as if there's no individuality, there's no individual faith.

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They're all being given a handbook on how to relay their faith. So there's no sense of ownership over that faith.

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And so, again, when we came here years ago, yeah, it just felt like, oh man, these people, they need the gospel so bad.

03:20

So what you're saying is there's character development that has happened with you. So the people are the same, right?

03:27

The cult is the same. Yeah, they've made some changes in terms of COVID and how they do things.

03:34

However, you have character development here. There's more wisdom that you've acquired. Yeah, that'd be the better way to explain it.

03:41

Speak about that wisdom in a sense. Or when you look now at the Mormon missionary who's standing outside the temple, which is typically women now, interesting enough, that stand outside the temple to lure people in, what do you see with the

03:56

Mormon missionary now than what you saw with the Mormon missionary two years ago? It's no longer as simple as just, in my mind now, it's just the simple gospel presentation, the quick go -tos of Mormonism.

04:17

Who is God? Who is Jesus? How can we be saved? Those will remain the same, for sure. But also now when

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I see them, the burden on my heart, what I think about is, hey, in the future,

04:31

Pastor Wade, I'm thinking about coming out of the LDS church. How do I do this?

04:37

My mom and dad are gonna disown me. How do I get through this? I'll have to give everything up.

04:46

Hey, Pastor Wade, my wife, I've left. Will you disciple me?

04:52

But my wife hasn't left. What do I do? Her family hates me now. So I just see now people who not only need the gospel, but they need care.

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They need, after so much spiritual abuse and lies, and feeling that.

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Because once they kind of, when the Holy Spirit wakes them up to that, they feel it. They feel abused.

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They feel hurt. It's real. Yeah, it's real for them. And that's why

05:22

I imagine so many of them go through a period of just hate and actually questioning

05:30

God. Can I really believe that there is a God? Because the God who I've known, who I've prayed to, isn't actually real.

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Things like that. So it's more of a pastoral mindset, I guess. Yeah, so you're like in the form of character development with yourself and the sanctification of the

05:45

Lord's bringing you through. There was a point to where you see an LDS person, when we're going to general conference and we're doing evangelism, to go out and evangelize that person, right?

05:56

Yeah. Which is a good thing. We should. We should have those arguments with the Lord. We should contend for the faith with love.

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But at the same time, what needs to be understood is that these are real image bearers of God who have faced years of spiritual manipulation.

06:13

Right. Is what you're saying. Yeah. And so behind our conversations, it's not that you're trying to win an argument. It's developed into this love for an image bearer of God who has been manipulated into a cult.

06:26

Right. And so like you said, we feel as if things are coming full circle. You know, the investment of the kingdom and of the gospel through Pastor Jeff, Pastor James, Pastor Luke, Pastor Zach.

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Their investment over the last decade or more, well, for Pastor James, many decades.

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Yeah. And you there with Pastor James and Pastor Jeff two decades ago. That investment, and boy,

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I don't take this for granted. Yeah. I sure don't. That investment is allowing us now to participate in this.

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What a legacy. We reap from the benefits. What a heritage. We're reaping benefits of a longstanding thing.

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So anyways, that's the full circle aspect. And so again, when I look at them, it's not just the gospel.

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It's what comes after too. Discipleship, love, care, shepherding. So everything has this full circle aspect.

07:27

It's every aspect of how the gospel heals. Yeah. It's every area. So let me say this, because I'm thinking in regards to culture.

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I'm thinking about the role of what a church should be. Depending on where it's planted, there's always going to be unique needs of the church.

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And in many ways, this is, you think about Kauai would be an example. There's a whole slew of people that are in bondage to the world, the kingdom of the cults, the kingdom of the occult.

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And in many ways, this whole area is cult central. I think that you see here this dualism between the

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Mormonism, which is really what was founded upon. In fact, I think as I was flying in to Utah just a day ago,

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I mean, just seeing that the mountains here are just so captivating. I was thinking through the mindset of what it must have been like, because even though they believe in a false gospel, just the humanity side of Mormonism, that longing for hope, being over those mountains and seeing the valley and deciding to call this place home.

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You're talking about the pioneers who took a thousand mile trek to get to this place where Brigham Young, when it opened up, said, this is home.

08:40

Yeah, this is home. And so in many ways, they use this home to really spread this false and counterfeit gospel.

08:49

And that does not in any way take away and actually perform the humanity of the people who were trying to be genuine of really seeking after hope.

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And in fact, one of my favorite lines of Walter Martin, when he had this prayer he did for one of his lectures, he said, help us to have compassion, the love of Christ, for these people who are seeking for help, but not from thee, but from the forces of evil.

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And I remember he said that with emotion when he prayed that. So that's one of the things that tugs on my heart, because in many ways,

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I think the Mormon people are still one of the most wonderful and sincere people. They wear their beliefs on their shoulder in many ways.

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They're very outspoken, very affronted about what they believe. But when you think about just the idea of a church plant here, and how does cultish, how does a church plant, how does it evolve together?

09:47

Because I think about the many examples, not just within Mormonism, but you think within Scientology, within Jehovah's Witnesses, when you regard the message with William Branham that we're going to be exploring in the upcoming couple of weeks, what you typically have, and this is part and parcel of every single cult story, you have someone who's a true believer in a particular movement.

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Something happens where there's a fragmenting. They have this, wait a minute, and there's this other edge of the looking glass.

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And then when we look at Mormonism, let's just say there's someone here in the valley right now, and they watched Murder Among the

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Mormons, which we just, we did a podcast with a group with cultish. They start looking up things, and all of a sudden, maybe that leads them to a

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Google search and look up the Book of Abraham translation. They look at the original facsimile of what they thought was

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Abraham on the altar, but it's really the God of Osiris in this very sexually explicit image.

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And I've seen Mormons watch, like see what it actually is, and I've seen their world fall apart.

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And I honestly, if I think about the times where I show them this, I kind of did it in a cage -stage sort of way, where I wanted to win the argument, and I won.

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But I don't know, I honestly feel bad about it, almost guilty, because their whole world comes crashing down.

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I wasn't really looking to win them the Christ, I was looking to tear their world apart, which I did.

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So it needs to say, in a place like this, where there's so much cultish infrastructure, where it's your family, your job, your everything, and the question is, there's weight behind, like this is the video you showed me of you talking to the sister missionaries, or just someone on the street.

11:35

You're sharing them with these verses, and in many ways, Walter Martin would talk about, I want to go ahead and just give them some ideas, hopefully share them the truth, and plant some seeds of doubt, and allow the

11:49

Holy Spirit to do its work. Amen, that's what we're talking about. I think my greatest moment, when I think about talking to cults, is when you ask them a question that throws them off of their script, and all of a sudden you see them think, and they're like, wait a second, they're like looking through the

12:07

Bible. There's this thrill, not because I'm like, oh look, I got them to do this, but this is the moment where they're thinking outside the way they're supposed, they're taught how to think.

12:19

Yeah, and so where I'm going with this, the need for a church, and part of why we're here, why we're talking about this, is if indeed there is that fragmenting that happens in the conversation, whether it's the documentary,

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Murder Among the Mormons, or whatever happens, and they're like, where do I turn to? Where do

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I go to? Where's a safe haven? Where can I, if I lose my job, if I lose my family, like where can

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I go? Where can I get a community? Where can I get assistance? Where can I get help?

12:48

Yeah, right. In many ways, like what if Apology of Salt Lake is in many ways sort of that beacon that could be a place, a safe haven, a place of rest.

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A place of healing. Yeah, a place of healing, a place where people could come to whose life has been fragmented, and they can put the pieces back together.

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Not just, not in a very like clinical, very academical, like Steve Hassan sort of way, but ultimately, not from a point of neutrality.

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Washing themselves in the word of God. Not from a point of neutrality, but to understand that all things were created by Christ and for Christ, and there's true healing.

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There's true freedom of who you are in Christ. You're counted righteous, and to have that love and acceptance before the living

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God, not in any particular organization, but you're having your identity be in Christ, and maybe like having that there, because in many ways, you think about our intro to cultish.

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We have Walter Martin back in the day. I think he actually did that lecture here in Utah, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, with Ed Deckard?

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Yeah, and he says, you're in a cult, I love you, and I want you out of it and with Christ.

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But here's the thing though. If you need to be out of it and with Christ, it also means being part of Christ's bride, which is the church.

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And my burden too is that so many people who get out of the world of cults, people who are generally saved, people who love

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Jesus, people who are born again, there's almost this wanting, there's this shell over themselves where they want themselves to be like this wandering nomad, where they don't put themselves in a church community.

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Like a ronin. So that's what I'm seeing, like us being out here and the potential for cultish to really be an extension of really...

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I don't know what God's... I kind of know what God's doing, but at the same time I don't.

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Jesus says like, right now you don't know what I'm doing, but soon you will. So I don't know, I'm just outward processing what

15:05

I'm thinking, because I feel like I've experienced a lot of what God has in the last couple of years with this podcast, and how it's impacted people.

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I see the heart behind people who are in Utah, and I feel like there's this hunger for a central hub for Christians to stand up and to really take this city and the society back and put it under Christ.

15:32

Jerry, what I'm hearing, bro, is something that I haven't really thought about yet, which is extremely important.

15:39

So for example, when we go to the abortion mill and we're talking to people there, we're saying, hey, do not murder your child.

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There's hope in Jesus Christ, and guess what? It's not just the gospel presents, which is the power of God to salvation, but the fact that God's people provide options for others with love.

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So we say, hey, we can help take care of that child. We can adopt the child. We can get you into a home.

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We can provide for you. But in terms of coming out of the cults, there's people who will give up everything.

16:12

They'd have to give up everything, their jobs, their financial position. We need to be there for them.

16:19

In that very same sense, right? Because when they're looking down the barrel of leaving the

16:25

LES organization, they are literally looking down the barrel of every single leader and probably manager and boss in Salt Lake City who is over them, right?

16:38

So there's got to be... There's so much to lose. Exactly. So there's got to be an aspect to our outreach, though, in Apologia Utah, where we can actually help them in that situation.

16:46

Sure. Right? Yeah, and I think like in many ways, if you look up the YouTube discussion between Walton Martin and Ned Decker, and there's a moment towards the end where he's talking about like,

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I can't leave. I've got this girl that, you know, is waiting for me to come back on my mission and we're going to get married in the temple.

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And Walton Martin is like, is she worth hell? Is she worth your soul? Like, is anything worth your soul? And I think like in many ways, it's kind of...

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They're like stuck between an option of, do I leave this? Or do I essentially have to sort of like, literally like be stripped naked and like walk out with nothing?

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Or live a lie? Or live a lie the rest of my entire life?

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Like, I remember the very first, like we made the track that we hand out, the Gospel for Mormons.

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And in the very beginning of this is, Mormonism is founded by a lie. Right? And so as Jeff said that, so that's like the first part of the

17:49

Gospel for Mormons track that we abbreviated from that talk that Jeff gave. And I remember handing a track to this guy, and this is at the

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Mesa Temple when this is pre -COVID, when everyone will be 100 ,000 people around each other without a worry in the world.

18:04

Right. What a strange trip it's been since then. But anyways, I remember I handed him this tract.

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He looked at the tract. He's like, Mormons is a lie. Yeah. Yep. Yep. That's true.

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Like... Yeah. Yeah? Like, what are you doing here? The indoctrination.

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Yeah. There's stuff. Like he knew who I was. And he knew like... And that was just... Most people know me.

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Like I'm a pretty easy guy. I'm a pretty easy guy to get along with. So anyways...

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You really are though. I am. I am. I'm like really back, very chill. But he just looked at me and he stopped and he looked at me and he got like teary -eyed.

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He stopped. He looked at his wife. He looked at his kids. And then he looked back at me and just like...

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Like this is my life. Like... Yeah. What am I supposed to do? Speak to that. Well, you know, again it even taught...

19:01

Going back to even what I talked about earlier and just looking at them more pastorally.

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So you said a Walter Martin quote said, I want you out and with Christ.

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Well, the issue is for many Christians is they just want them out.

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Right. We just want the out. We... If you're a street evangelist, you're there to just sometimes, let's be honest, to get them out.

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Right. And not with Christ. And so that's the burden I have is like every time

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I talk with one of these people, with one of these image bearers of God, these Latter -day

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Saints, or whoever who's ever unsaved, is do I want them just out or do

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I want them out and with Christ? And so with that comes a whole host of things.

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It comes with a healthy church. It comes with biblical preaching. It comes with biblical discipleship and teaching and deprogramming and renewing of the mind with the

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Word of God and all those things that go with it. You know, so that's my concern always is that we're not just kind of a one and done.

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And that's why lately I've been in my conversations saying things, and I definitely got this from Pastor James when he spoke to us years ago when we first went out.

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He said, you know, you ought to not want them to lose faith but to place that faith in the one true and living

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God. So I tell them, I'm not trying to rob you of your faith. You have some sort of aspect of faith.

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It's in an idol. It's in a false god. It offers no hope. It offers no salvation.

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But there is some sort of faith. In fact, I mean, I think all people end up putting their faith in something.

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We have to be honest about that. Yeah, we have to be honest about that. And so am I concerned about what comes after this conversation?

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Are you ready? Are we ready as Christians for when God does His work because it's not us?

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And he goes, yeah. Someone says, I want to repent.

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I want to know this Christ. I want to know this God that you're talking about. Are we ready for after that fact?

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And I think we're just ready for the out and not with Christ. And that's where the plant kind of comes in.

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And like you said, there's a hub now. There's a place of healing. There's a place for sanctification, a place for reprogramming.

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And so we can put our money where our mouth is. We don't just come do a mission. You know,

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I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the teams that come out here from other states.

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And they'll go to a general conference. We learned about a team that came here from out of state, was here from and they, even though it was virtual conference, they were here.

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And I'm grateful for that. And it's kind of like what I've heard concerning international missions.

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They're tired of the one month visit by your collegiate or youth group who go to Mozambique, Africa or wherever and build relationships and then leave these people in dust and never come back.

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So this is a mission field. Utah is a mission field. It's fertile. Brigham Young came into the land.

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He said, this is fertile. Yeah, he was right. Yeah, it is. And it's ready. And the harvest, you know, the harvest is ready.

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So we need we need to get to work. So what you're saying then is we can't just come in, preach the truth to somebody, right?

22:54

And then leave them at that. Yeah. These are people that are losing everything. So they've been spiritually abused.

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Exactly. Do you want to do that again? So if they were to come to tell you and say, I repent, are you going to be silent?

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Are you going to give them the ability to go meet an elder, get plugged into the local body and help them know the true and living

23:14

God? Are you there just to leave them in the friar? You've destroyed their religion and now you're gone.

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Yeah, because James 2 talks about it, the epistle of James, where he says, you see a brother or sister in need and you say, be warmed and be filled.

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I know it's talking about brothers and sisters in Christ, but I think there's a general principle or application, you know, where.

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Yes. And now they're regenerate in my in my, you know, story here. It's it's that we're not just giving the gospel.

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We're not just spiritually feeding. We're not just giving the bread of life. Jesus, who is the manna from heaven.

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We're not just giving the liver, the living waters, acting as Christ. We're also giving the physical aspect.

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So, yeah, so that if they do, my hope is that we do have a fund where if someone loses everything, we can help them.

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We can help them find a job. We can do this. We can do that. And and yeah, so we have to develop that.

24:15

Yeah, and that's one of the things, like you mentioned people that came from out of town and I'm and.

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And we've done that. And we've done. Paul G has done that. And we've done that too. But honestly, like when

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I when I think when I was out there and I remember there's this one girl who is it was this conversation that I had.

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And I remember like you jumped in for like a little bit. And you felt bad at first. It's all good.

24:39

It's all good. It happens. But I remember. No swarming. Yeah, it's warm. Yeah, don't swarm. No swarming in evangelism.

24:45

Yes, yes. But I remember this girl. It was almost like it felt very spiritual in the sense that it was almost like she was just started.

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It's kind of like like she was like tapped into something. I was totally convinced she was becoming she was going to become a goddess.

25:02

It was basically I want to be a goddess of my own planet. What's and this is like, remember, Alexander told me that there's a difference between like regular

25:09

Mormons and Utah Mormons. Like I was talking to a Utah Mormon. And yeah, and yeah, she was fully convinced she was going to become a goddess of her own planet.

25:19

And I remember like I was in Isaiah just hitting her with forces. It was like volley like loose, you know, like firing like he's like not at this time.

25:30

I'm like firing my I was like, like finding these like volley of arrows, you know?

25:36

Yeah. And like you jumped in a little bit like someone else did. And he kind of wanted to end the conversation. It was interesting to like it.

25:43

I always try to be careful because sometimes I don't want to get caught in an evangelistic conversation with the goal for me is to like win the argument.

25:52

The goal is I'm not trying. Yeah, the goal isn't for me to be right. I always say like,

25:57

Michael, I don't need to be right. Like God is right. Yeah, I'm just I'm just there to try and articulate what he is saying.

26:05

Like I'm just I don't write the mail. I just deliver it. Bridge the gaps, scale the language barrier, right? Scale the scale the language barrier.

26:11

But he was trying to end it on the fact that I have my testimony of your truth. You have my truth.

26:17

And I wouldn't end it. I wouldn't give like I just I can't remember what he was saying, but it was something that he was trying to end on note that that was totally unbiblical.

26:25

And I wouldn't give him what he was wanting. Yeah. And he was. I remember that. Yeah. He was angry because I would not back down.

26:32

Yeah. Like every single time. He wanted the last word kind of theologically in a way. And every time he tried to lay that down, like I kicked the foot back under him.

26:40

Yeah. But in all honesty, though, what I think, though, is that I was one of the people who

26:46

I'm there for a week. I'm there for. Honestly, we were out there for only like a half a day, even though we're standing on the ground for like what felt like forever.

26:58

And that's one thing that James talked about when you're like, you feel like your your legs have aged almost like a year.

27:04

Yeah, we were singing. Yeah. A couple of years. You're like, oh, well, to be fair, though, Jerry, hold on. Yeah. Be fair.

27:10

Like we had other conversations with people who came to the coffee shop with us. We exchanged numbers with. Sure.

27:15

Yeah. It was very fruitful. Yeah. I don't think we're the people that were just there to preach and then dip. Right.

27:20

If it came to it, our hearts, which has been shown through evidence of people who have received our phone numbers, was not just to leave people with nothing.

27:29

Right. Of course. But to truly show them the love of God. Yeah. But I tell them the truth as hard as it is.

27:35

But I think, however, like being where we were then versus where we are now, where we're headed to be able to sort of have a church.

27:44

Yeah. Have a safe haven where people can actually. So when a team of 30 people from Apologia come up, they can go.

27:50

They can point to that. Right. OK. I got you. Because we didn't know a lot of churches back then either.

27:56

Yeah, it's true. Because I'm just thinking in the sense where someone someone has a conversation with us like that. And I know tons of people like Walter Miller talk about people who are extremely angry, hostile.

28:07

Yeah. And like spent three years like going through, like trying to angrily refute them.

28:13

And God used that to break down those barriers to eventually save them. Yeah. Maybe save them and have them be born again.

28:20

But my point being is that if something happened where I talked to that couple and let's just say they viewed the tract, they looked up stuff online that I said.

28:30

And because I remember at the very end, I said things about Adam God. I gave them like literally I was I remember like sources.

28:35

I remember like the dates of when Brigham Young said this. And I quoted word for word. And they were like,

28:41

Brigham Young never said that. And like but what if this girl later on in like a spirit of anger googled, researched

28:48

Adam God doctor and found those quotes to be true word for word. And she had that Neo like that looking at the battery,

28:55

Morpheus holding at the battery moment. Yeah. She fragments. But then it's like I'm back home in Arizona.

29:03

Sure. Or we're all back home in Arizona. Yeah. My world fragments falls apart.

29:09

Who do I go to in Utah? Who do I talk to? So my point being is that maybe this is the importance of having a place here.

29:17

That's a safe haven, a church where people can go to have their doubts. We've had people come to our studio in Arizona in a similar circumstance.

29:26

Yeah, we've had that. So I think that that's one of the I think the huge opportunities that in many ways like cultures is just one little blip in the real world, the real evangelistic need for the world of cold.

29:41

This is the real mission field that no one else can handle. And this is why we need to have a church in a place like this.

29:48

Wow. That's why I love. So not to puff you guys up, but that's why I love cultish.

29:53

I don't think people really understand how it started and seeing you guys after church all giddy, being like, dude, look what

30:02

I just looked up and stuff like that. And no, but really, it's always been about people.

30:11

It's always been about reaching people. These guys could, in a way, care less about being top 100 on faith and spirituality on iTunes or something.

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It shows them that at least they're reaching more people. That's what they that's what they're concerned about.

30:28

So I think I think that's something to give glory to God to. It's a legacy.

30:33

And that's just something that we want to continue to carry on here to leverage what you guys have done with cultish and to perpetuate it to continue it.

30:44

So I think that's something important that people need to understand. Literally coming to Utah, doing evangelism when we do ward outreach, and you've been there for the past couple of months.

30:57

That's the end goal. It's not even about views. It's not about all this stuff.

31:04

It's not even really about the media. The media is a tool. The media is a medium that we can use in the public square to further get this out.

31:13

At the end of the day, that's what it is. Oh, it's beautiful. When we talk about cultish 2 .0,

31:20

and where Jerry and I wanted to position cultish for 2021, 2 .0 means let's get on our feet.

31:26

Let's get out there. Let's get dirty. And let's preach the gospel with love, right?

31:31

Let's scale the language barrier. Let's be soldiers in the army of God dancing in the crossfire, right?

31:40

Singing psalms in the crossfire because Jesus is one. It's nothing about us, right?

31:47

When we have these conversations with everyone else, or people who have left the cults, the main goal is to show how beautiful the

31:55

Jesus of scripture is, and how scripture is the sole authority in our lives.

32:03

Jesus doesn't need us to prop him up. It's the exact opposite. Jesus props us up.

32:09

Without him, we would fall flat in every area of our lives, right? Cultish 2 .0,

32:16

and where we're at in 2021, is let's get out there. Let's get on our feet, people. Everyone who's listening to our podcast, let's go and evangelize, but not in the sense of where you want to destroy somebody, right?

32:30

If you're listening to cultish, and you've listened to the last 121 episodes, you should know by now that there's real people who have faced real issues, who have had real spiritual abuse coming out of those cults.

32:43

So we need to level with them in their affliction, and show them that there is a way to heal, but it needs to be done within the body of Christ.

32:51

Yeah. That this healing cannot be done on your own, that you don't want to evangelize and leave someone spiritually broken out there in the middle of nowhere.

32:59

Yeah. It's to give them options, and it's... The local church is one of the greatest means of grace.

33:07

That's exactly what I was trying to say. The local church, that's what we harp on.

33:13

It's not celebrity guys. It's not podcast figures. It's Jesus.

33:19

It's getting plugged into a local church, a church that models Christ and his teachings.

33:26

Yeah. So thinking about Salt Lake City, and say, I'm going out with Wade to plant a church.

33:33

It's not like cultish is over by any means. This is the next step, right?

33:38

This is what we're looking for. This is what we want to do to leverage ourselves. And Jerry, how do you feel about that?

33:48

What do you think about that? Just so the listeners know. I know how you feel, but just so the listeners know. Just regards to where we're headed with the church plant?

33:57

Yeah. So in many ways, I think that Jeff initially talked to me, and this is probably...

34:04

We launched in October of 2018. So I'm pretty sure, if I recall it, it was probably around the beginning of March of 2018 that Jeff just sort of mentioned to me in passing.

34:17

We're at this Thai food place at the vineyard where we used to meet up at. And Jeff just looked at me one day and he said, you know what?

34:26

You should start up a ministry. You should probably be the go -to guy for starting up a ministry to the cults.

34:33

That's always been your passion. You just think about and pray about it. I don't know what prompted him to do it.

34:39

He just reached out to me and said that, which is just one of those things, too. Because you talk about, too, how the idea of church planting, how you need to be sent out by someone else, whatever.

34:50

So it's just interesting the fact that I was never... I always really enjoyed the aspects of evangelism with the

34:57

Mormon Temple, which is part of my history, both with Apologia, with Jeff, and with James White.

35:06

And I wasn't really looking like, oh, I'm going to start my own. I wasn't even looking for that.

35:12

Jeff approached me about doing a ministry. And I'm like, well, what would that even look like?

35:18

What's the way that we could have a central hub of how we could just have this be a starting point?

35:27

So in many ways, my idea was like, Coltish would be the starting point for this podcast.

35:33

We really didn't even know about what the title would be. Jeff came up with the idea, like, Coltish. Probably...

35:40

He did? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. I couldn't... I thought for months... We were going back and forth with ideas.

35:46

I cannot come up with anything. Like a picnic with the Colts or something like that? Yeah, and just... Nothing was good.

35:51

Yeah. And Jeff came up with it. I'm like, wow. How just... Wow. Like no one's thought of that.

35:58

Yeah. That's crazy. So like what I think in regards to like Coltish in relation to into the plan of just being here is that it's an aspect of like Walter...

36:10

I think like with Walter Martin, like he was a... Walter Martin was a genius in regards to not just...

36:19

Excuse me. That's a little parts... I'm not used to the weather out here in Utah. It's really dry. Give me a pardon.

36:24

But... Give me a pardon, please. Yeah. But I think that Walter Martin, he was a genius in not just in regards to being able to speak out like the issues of apologetics, the aspect like communicating the importance of reaching out to the

36:42

Colts, but really speaking in people's native tongue in a very basic, simplistic way that people would understand.

36:49

And so... But not only that, I think he was also a master of media.

36:55

Yeah. Like he understood content distribution for like back in the 80s. There's a video...

37:01

There's video footage of him talking about wanting to create the central hub and archive where anyone around the world could access any information about any particular

37:10

Colt. And they could be... Somehow they could access it. That's awesome. So he's almost describing the internet, but like Al Gore says like, well,

37:17

I invented the internet or whatever he said. But Walter Martin, like he would... There's a video where he was describing the internet before it was ever invented.

37:25

That's crazy. So what I think in comparison to this is that in many ways, this is just one aspect of really communicating the importance of evangelism to the

37:38

Colts, understanding that people... There's hope if you've been in a destructive

37:44

Colt organization where you've been spiritually abused or burnt, like the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original and there's true hope in Christ that can be found.

37:58

And I think like now having like an actual church here where you can like do the outreach on the grounds, like being out there, like in the field, like person to person, face to face, like it's indicative of just the need of this mission field.

38:16

I think that... And again, we talk about, you know, because there's an aspect where I'm a bit of a marketing nerd when it comes to like promotion, how to do things, how to get stats, how to make a post that gets a lot of likes and comments, or even like you said, when

38:33

I look at the top 100 in iTunes, I never think of it in regards to like, oh my gosh, like Andrew and I were so smart, we're celebrities, we're so popular.

38:46

Like when I look at like the Church of Wells, the episode we recently did ranking in the top, you know, four, like ranked number 40 amongst like, you know, the

38:55

Joel Olsen podcast and those other things. The reason is not because we're so great.

39:01

Like we're not. Like I'm just a nincompoop. I'm a fool behind a microphone.

39:07

Like I'm... And so, but I think what you're seeing there is really,

39:12

I call it the pulse of the marketplace. Yeah. This is the marketplace of ideas in the same way how a couple weeks ago when one or two books or three or four books by Dr.

39:21

Seuss got canceled. The reason there's a marketplace of ideas behind now, all of a sudden, like the top 40 bestsellers in Amazon were

39:31

Dr. Seuss books, right? Yeah. So gold. Right. So in many ways, people who are in cults, this whole aspect and having a

39:40

Christian perspective on it, which is unique that I don't think too many other people really have on a regular basis.

39:47

Like there's just this hunger and need for truth because people know indicatively that when they look at the world, the cults, the presuppositionally it is the people are assuming that there's deception.

40:02

Yeah. Right. But deception, like deception presupposes there is a standard of absolute truth.

40:08

The way the truth should be communicated, the way that truth should be articulated and the way that it, the way like there is, there is a standard of ultimate truth because otherwise, what are we even, we're just blabbering if there's not an ultimate standard of truth.

40:24

Hey, and what did you say earlier about that truth? The truth is a person. Right. The truth, yeah.

40:30

The truth, yeah. Truth is a person. In other words that Jesus said,

40:36

I am the way, the truth and the life. Yeah. I love that so much. So I think that that is when you look at this, the mission field that's out here in Utah and really the kingdom of the cults in general is that you have all these false spirituality, that you have these false systems that abuse people, that manipulate people, that put people, the mental health epidemic that are just in the world of cults where you have to put on this perfect religious face.

41:05

You can never admit your brokenness to people. You can never, you know, James 5, in James 5, it says, confess your sins to one another so that you may be healed, right?

41:18

The cultic systems have a standard where you have to always put on this fake face of perfection.

41:26

Yes. That you always have. You can put on this fake face, but I can never really confess my sins because if I confess my brokenness,

41:36

I can never really show people for who I really am because no one would really accept me and I'll be discredited,

41:44

I would be shunned. And every, if I might add, every other solution is sinking sand.

41:52

So there's only one solution, you know? There's only one truth.

41:58

We talked about it today, all these people say they have different truths, but there's only one objective truth and that is the

42:05

God -man Jesus Christ. Amen. And so, you know, I think that's why people are attracted to a show like Cultish, to bring it back to that, because there's redemption there.

42:21

Yeah. You know, it's not just a docu -series, an informative docu -series, learning of the deception.

42:30

Ooh, people always love deception, but I think you guys bring objectivity.

42:36

You bring truth. We bring Christ to the conversation and that's redemption.

42:43

That's not just empty deception, because you could watch any other documentary on Mormonism or whatever.

42:52

You could even watch Murder Among the Mormons and go, okay, I get that. Wow, the

42:58

Mormon Church is deceptive. The Mormon Church believed and was gullible in this white salamander letter and all this stuff, all the different things that Mark Hoffman did.

43:09

But at the end of it, where's the redemption? So what you're saying is pretty much is you can go to all these secular sources on what cult is false and why it's false.

43:23

But what they are ultimately telling you is that, yes, Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

43:28

Yes, these things may not have happened, but guess what? You're highly evolved fish. And that the universe is 14 .5

43:36

billion years old and you're nothing but meaninglessness. Therefore, rejoice in the fact that once you die, there's nothing left.

43:46

Yeah. Like what type of hope is that? Yeah. And how is that truth by any means when it's nothing but something that cannot be observed?

43:55

Were you there 14 .5 billion years ago to observe the Big Bang and the evolution of the human species according to Darwin and the origin of species?

44:05

No, it's not science. That's not truth. That's not objectivity. You know what that is?

44:10

It's another cult, right? It's another offshoot of aping what truth is and redefining it to your own terms so you can tell people that they can choose to be their own gender.

44:22

Right, right. Well, and that's why among Utah residents, it's the number one place for prescription antidepressants.

44:35

It's the number one place for a pornography problem. It's one of the highest in plastic surgery among the nation.

44:44

I mean, there's no true healing. Every other solution is sinking sand.

44:50

It won't really change anything. It's in a sense hopeless, of course.

44:57

And so these are just counterfeits. They're just Band -Aids that won't stop the bleeding wound.

45:04

You know what I mean? Amen. And so they need true hope. Right. Even you said like there's a huge marketplace here for plastic surgery.

45:12

Yeah. Which is just, I found that just fascinating just because just a little bit

45:17

I've understood and studied just about the pressure that Mormon women have to sort of be that perfect sort of Stepford wife, like have everything all together no matter what.

45:31

And just like the perfect image I have to have to be that perfect Mormon person rather than just having, you know, what the

45:40

Bible talks about that gentle and quiet like spirit. Right. It's all outward focused.

45:45

Think about, we're called, they call themselves Christians.

45:51

Right. We say, oh, I'm Christian. Well, I am too. You know, well, Christians are called to have joy.

46:00

And we do have joy. We have the spirit of the living God in us. We can have joy in Christ. Think about it.

46:05

If you're LDS, the Mormon church has robbed you of joy.

46:10

You are in bondage, essentially. You have no joy. Antidepressants, pornography, nothing's ever good enough.

46:19

I can never fix it. I can't go to my stake president. I can't go to my bishop. You've been robbed of true joy.

46:25

And that joy can only come with peace with God, with repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

46:33

Amen. No, you know, that's a huge thing. And that's why I think that with what we've just done with coldness in the last two years,

46:42

I think we've just really shown that there's just a hunger in the marketplace for, like, really a hunger for truth and really biblical truth.

46:51

And I think that any of the other, even like secular shows on cults, like they can kind of talk about those things in passing, but they can't really give a deeper explanation other than why, by the way, this just happened.

47:08

Like 900 people killed themselves by drinking potassium cyanide because they believe that Jim Jones was

47:14

God and he told them to do it. Right. Well, they understand that they did that. Well, that makes them a cult.

47:20

But like, what's the real reason behind the reason why they did that? Right. Even the psychology and the brainwashing, it can't thoroughly explain that.

47:27

No. I think that's just something that is like, then that's why the reason why cult just has been unique, because it's giving real biblical answers to like a lot of these questions without the biblical worldview.

47:41

You can't give an ultimate accounting why any of the aspects of cult, why the idea of manipulating, brainwashing, like even like if you look at the story of Mark Hoffman, in just a secularist, materialistic worldview, what's ultimately wrong with Mark Hoffman with what he did or the

48:02

Mormon church on the other side suppressing what they did. They're just, both of them are all, they're all like Gordon B.

48:08

Hinckley was just another bag of biological protoplasm. Yeah. That his chemicals fired in his brain that he wanted to accept what

48:16

Mark Hoffman's chemicals firing in his brain to write out on some, you know, rearrange some stardust.

48:25

Right. To make it look like the white salmon or these forged documents to make it look like something else. To make, to really just make the church look good so they continue to make money.

48:34

Yeah. Well, if you think about it, when it all boils down to it is that the secular world says, leave your cult and do what feels good for you.

48:44

It's Epicurean philosophy. That's what it is. Do what makes you happy. Do what feels good to you.

48:50

But you notice... All of it's become a God. You come out of one where you're like,

48:57

I was trying to be God and I realized I sucked as a God. Now I'm going to go into the secular worldview or atheist worldview.

49:03

No. And I'm going to try to be a God again and it sucks again. No, no, no. That's exactly what I'm saying. Because if you get into conversations with LDS people, these are serious conversations.

49:12

Yeah. You're trying to get to the core of what is truth. And like what Jerry said, the truth is a person who took on, it was

49:19

God who took on flesh, Jesus Christ, the God man. They get to the part where they go, well, your truth is your truth.

49:24

And my truth is my truth. They get to Epicurean philosophy. Yeah. Do what makes you feel good and what makes you happy.

49:31

But the saddest part of that is it falls flat to the question. Well, if you are nothing but highly evolved fish and accidental consciousness, why does happiness mean anything at all?

49:43

Yeah. Right. But for the Christian, joy supersedes happiness. You want to know why?

49:48

Because even in the midst of suffering, you have joy and suffering is the opposite of happiness. Yeah. So joy in itself, in a human finding joy, shows you that there's an objective level of truth that regardless of your circumstances, you can worship the one and only

50:03

God in spirit and in truth. But it takes the one, the God man who suffered, right?

50:10

A death that we deserve for, for us, gave us his righteousness to have peace with God to actually overcome happiness, to overcome suffering and see the joy in the midst of trial in human life.

50:22

But you can't have that unless you know the truth and the meaning of the suffering that you're experiencing.

50:29

Right. Right? Yeah. That's what the Christian worldview offers. That's what Jesus offers.

50:34

Yeah. The way he offered it, which is the most beautiful thing to think about, is that he offers it with his blood.

50:40

Yeah. He offers it with his blood. That's how serious he took it. Well, yeah,

50:46

I think it will be interesting to see too as, I mean, we're just kind of talking back and forth about it. We're talking about going full circle.

50:54

Cultish, church plant, it's all mixing together. Yeah, but in all seriousness,

51:00

I feel like the mindset that we have about this place two years ago, like now, versus when we were driving up here,

51:09

I think it's just, it's a lot deeper. There's a deeper level in which we are viewing things.

51:16

Yeah. And so in many ways, I'm like, I would say I'm super excited for it, which is funny if you watch the very beginning,

51:24

Colston and Ben and us, we're super excited. Super excited for this. Super excited. But I think though tomorrow, for example, we have our

51:32

Q &A. I think there are going to be a decent amount of people that show up to it. And again,

51:38

I don't think that, like, if there's like 200 people tomorrow, like not for a second would

51:46

I even like flinch in the sense of like, ooh, look, all these people are here to see me. Like my mindset is like, whoa, what is, there's a deep, what's the reason behind why so many of you are here?

51:59

And I think the reason why if there's a lot of people who show up tomorrow, maybe there'll just be a few, is that it would be in conjunction to how you felt two years ago when

52:11

Wade was filming you inside of your car and talking about these saints up here in Utah who have this hunger for the truth to be proclaimed.

52:21

And the fact that in many ways, we've been able to speak out and give a voice to that hunger that there's a void there because the church as a whole isn't really speaking to the kingdom of the cults.

52:31

Right. That the secular worldview isn't giving an answer for cultists. No. When it comes about the hope of the gospel.

52:37

Not at all. And so everywhere I've gone, I've seen people start to come up to me.

52:45

I was just in Gilbert and someone came up to me and said, oh, I love your podcast, it's great. Wow. And I was like, oh, hi, how are you?

52:51

No kidding, wow, that's great, it never happened to me before. Yeah, but in any ways, my point being is that if people show up tomorrow, which they will, it's indicative of just this hunger for truth, the hunger for the truth to be proclaimed, and really the hunger for a central hub to be here.

53:15

And there needs to be a central hub here in Utah and any other places where there's these spiritual voids because you have the very religious people like in downtown

53:24

Salt Lake. You probably have a lot of people who are in very fragmented

53:29

FLDS groups all over Utah who are really enslaved to that idea.

53:36

And all of them need the gospel. All of them need to know the real God, man, Jesus Christ.

53:43

Really, they need to know him for who he is. And that's really the only way they can have hope. So that's my heart behind this.

53:51

So I mean, I'm excited to see where the Lord leads. And it's funny too, because sometimes people give us coldest flack because somehow we're this secretive

54:01

Christian recruitment podcast or whatever, or we're really about cults, but we're actually very secretive.

54:08

I'm like, no, I think we're pretty out in the open. I think we came out of the closet on day one.

54:14

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we're in the Christian, the religion and spirituality category. Yeah. Read the description.

54:22

The real solution for dealing with the kingdom of the cults is repent, believe the gospel. Yeah, we've been saying that since day one.

54:29

When it comes down to it, let them open book. Yeah, I think thinking about tomorrow night, coming full circle, all these things.

54:39

It's also about how over the years, you guys have gotten messages. You've gotten letters like, hey,

54:47

I'm in this city in Utah. Where would I go? Where do I go?

54:52

You guys have gotten that. I've gotten a few, you know? And that's heartbreaking.

54:59

We know now, thankfully, of a few faithful churches, but we didn't have answers sometimes.

55:06

Yeah. Back then. And so I think what's exciting is to be able to...

55:15

The dog's barking. Yeah. We're in a real life situation here. We're in a backyard.

55:21

Behind the park. Yeah, the dogs are barking. The real answer is, we want a hub, right?

55:28

We want a station, a church, planted Apologia, Utah, where people could be appointed to, at least out here, right?

55:35

Or where we can do even more things in the future to position ourselves to better engage the spirit of darkness with the light of the gospel.

55:46

The light, which is the life of all men, and the darkness will never overcome. And we're not saying we're the solution. No, Jesus.

55:52

I'm talking about Jesus. No, no, I know. And we're not saying we're the only church, by the way. We're not saying...

55:57

No, no, no. We're not saying we're the guys, and we're going to bring this amazing new solution.

56:03

Nope. There's faithful churches here. There are. And they're working hard, and we want to just join them in the fight, the good fight.

56:12

And so, yeah, if you're listening, we're super excited.

56:19

Super excited. We're so excited because we have heard people's cries. We have heard people's stories, and we just want to minister to them.

56:30

We just want to be there for them. That's it. That's it. At the end of the day. That's it. We want to be there for them. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good way to wrap up things because,

56:38

I mean, the idea was that we're here... Bark, bark. Yeah. We're here in the back patio, and I'm thinking of like the wake, especially like waking up the first morning after driving 10 hours and hanging out with Brian and his wife, and just really experiencing that full circle.

56:58

Bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. And just kind of understanding just the huge need and everything like that.

57:03

So in many ways, I'm just excited to see where the Lord leads. So, yeah, all that being said, we'll talk to you guys next time, and I hope you enjoyed this conversation.

57:14

And just be praying for the future of Coltish, and also be praying for Salt Lake as a whole, and how we can help, not just Apology at Salt Lake, but really help really churches and the whole body around Utah really begin to do something that...

57:31

And I was thinking about this, like Apology at Church started because Jeff had gotten this call to be a chaplain at Calvary Addiction Recovery Center.

57:42

And as people were coming to Christ, they were saying, well, almost like drug use, the whole drug culture is a cult in and of itself, because you have to hang out with certain people in order to use.

57:55

But people would come to Christ and realize, I can't hang out with this group anymore. Like, where do I go?

58:00

Where can I go for help? And that really laid the burden to start a church, those flappy ears.

58:07

Sorry. No, that's all good. And so yeah, and here we are. I think in many places where people are saying, well, now

58:16

I've left this cult, or now I've left the Mormon church or whatever. I mean, there's a whole slew of cults outside of here.

58:22

I remember being at a place two years ago called Jack Mormon Coffee, and inside there was an advertisement for Scientology inside this coffee shop.

58:33

So needless to say, there's plenty of places where there's cults. There's cults everywhere.

58:38

It's a cult dystopia. Syncretism. Yeah. One of the largest Hare Krishna temples in the

58:45

U .S. So in summary, people will say... Cults attract cults. Yeah.

58:50

What do I do now? And hopefully this aspect of this plant may be in the same way how

58:57

Apology of Church was for people coming out of addiction, like a safe haven where people could go, be shepherded, be preached to.

59:05

Hope, Lord willing, that Apology of Salt Lake can be the exact same thing. Amen. Amen, brother.

59:10

Amen. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening, and wherever you watch this, just pray for the future of Koldish and Salt Lake and whatever the