November 25, 2022 Show with Marq Ortiz on “Trusting the Lord to Build His Church”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 25th day of November 2022.

I hope you all had a very refreshing and enjoyable

Thanksgiving with family, friends, and loved ones, and that you not only enjoyed yourself and feasted on delicious food, but that you also were a witness for Jesus Christ to anyone with whom you ate and relaxed and enjoyed the day.

We have a first -time guest today. Once in a while, I am approached by a listener, and this listener was a woman named

Chris Pope, who said, you really have got to get my pastor, Mark Ortiz, pastor at Grace Reform Fellowship of Burnville, Pennsylvania, on your program.

And I very often take up my listeners on their suggestions, recommendations, especially when they're so passionate and enthusiastic, and that is what

I have done today. And I also love meeting new pastors who embraced and believe in and passionately proclaim and teach and preach the doctrines of sovereign grace, and so especially even on top of that when they're in my new home state of Pennsylvania.

So I am thrilled to have on the program for the very first time Mark Ortiz, and he is the pastor of Grace Reform Fellowship of Burnville, Pennsylvania, and today we're going to be trusting, today we're going to be trusting, today we're going to be discussing trusting the

Lord to build his church. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Mark Ortiz.

Thank you, Chris. It's good to be here. It's been quite a while here. We were trying to work it out.

Thank you for this opportunity. Yes, so before we get into your testimony, because whenever we have a first -time guest on the program, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, and that would be you.

But before we do that, tell our listeners something about Grace Reform Fellowship of Burnville, Pennsylvania.

Well, Grace Reformed is an independent Reformed congregation.

It started out, I've been the pastor here going on 25 years, and when

I first got here, we were affiliated with the Atlantic Coast Conference Mennonite Church.

I had come here from Ministry of Teen Challenge in Raresburg, and over the course of the next few years, there were some various changes that were going on with the denomination and with our affiliation, and that's a little story in and of itself.

But we've been committed to Reformed doctrine, Reformed teaching, since I got here, and it's been a journey.

I'd say the last 15 years, it's been a real blessing. We're really blessed here at the church.

The Lord is giving us growth in the lives of the people. I'm privileged to serve a really loving and blessed congregation here in Burnville.

Now, I know it is called Grace Reformed Fellowship, and there are many different kinds of Reformed congregations out there, and the main or primary division amongst us is that there are

Baptist or Baptistic congregations that are also confessional and Reformed, and there are also

Pato Baptist and Presbyterian congregations. Where does

Grace Reformed Fellowship fall? I'd say we fall more in line with the

Reformed Baptists. I'd say we're more in line with the

London Baptist confession of faith. But again, we seek to have fellowship with the

Lord. We don't practice what people do, and we certainly have no difficulty fellowshiping with all those who love the

Lord. But we're not affiliated right now with any particular, we're an independent church, although we hope to see that change down the road.

Well, technically, Reformed Baptists are independent churches. They just have fellowship, or the most closely connected fellowship,

I should say, with those that are also Reformed Baptist and confessional, adhering to the 1689

London Baptist confession, although there are other confessions, Philadelphia Confession, the

New Hampshire Confession, and others. But if anybody wants to find out more about Grace Reformed Fellowship of Burnville, Pennsylvania, go to gracereformedburnville, and that's spelled

B as in boy, E -R -N -ville .com. That's B -E -R -N -ville .com.

And God willing, we'll be repeating that website throughout the broadcast. And so now we come to the point, since you are a first -time guest, we'd love to hear your salvation story, your testimony in summary form, and that would include the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Well, I was born and raised in Pottsville.

Yes, my friend, Pastor Fred Zaspel, used to be a pastor there.

He's now one of the pastors at the Reformed Baptist Church of Franconia, Pennsylvania, but there was a time when he pastored in Pottsville.

Okay, well, I grew up in Pottsville, and I was not raised a

Christian, although I would say our family was more of like a cultural Christian. They paid lip service, if you will, to Christianity.

It was a black Baptist church. My mom grew up in a black Baptist church, but we didn't know

Christ. We didn't know the Lord, and we weren't converted. I spent most of my early years involved in sin, as always, as everybody, drinking, drugs.

I was a musician, and that was very important to me. I would have thought myself as a nice guy, good guy, but I was profane, and you know the drill.

My mom had a lot of issues as well in her life. So in 1976,

I had dropped out of college. I was attending Penn State University, and I dropped out of college and came back to Pottsville and just was spiraling more and more into drug addiction and just a life of immorality and sin.

One day I was looking to get high, believe it or not, and a friend of mine stopped by the house to pick me up, and we were out driving around, and I happened to go past the playground where we used to hang out, and I saw an old friend of mine who

I hadn't seen for a number of years, and he was even more strung out than I was the last time we had seen each other.

So I had my friend stop the car. We got out and started talking to him. I wanted to see if he could direct me to be able to score some dope, and he turned around, and all he said was,

Jesus, and I could look in his face, and I could see that there was something different about him, and I had been witnessed to a number of times, and I laughed at people.

I just didn't want to have anything to do with Christians or the

Bible, but for some reason I just said, Tell me about him. I can't remember exactly everything that he said.

I stood there for about ten minutes, and by then my friend had gotten in a car and left. He didn't want to hear any of it, so I was without a ride.

So I had about a ten -minute walk from there to my house. I walked up. I told my buddy I had to go.

I had heard enough. I need to leave. On that walk from there to my house,

I'd never experienced anything like this before, but a deep sense of, now

I know it was conviction. I just couldn't explain I was lost. I just felt condemned that I was on my way to hell.

There was a hell. I couldn't explain it, but I ran up to my room, and I fell on my knees, and I cried out for mercy and forgiveness, and I got up, and I felt, actually sensed relief and forgiveness.

I can't explain it. I don't have to, but I went downstairs and found our old family

Bible. We didn't even have a Bible Bible. We had a big family Bible, and I opened it up. I remember my friend telling me, you know, like we always do,

Read John or read the Bible. So I started reading it, and it was like a lost...

It was just something that was thrilling. My mom happened to walk downstairs at that moment, and she saw me sitting there at the table reading the

Bible, and the look on her face, I don't know if she thought I was going to get raided upon the Bible or what, but she said,

What are you doing? And I said, Mom, I think I just got saved. I didn't even know how to express it, but she started rejoicing.

So that week, just to show you the providence of God, I was scheduled to play.

A friend of mine, we were invited to play. They had a bicentennial celebration in Pottsville, and they invited me and my buddy to come and do some songs and play.

So we needed a sound system for the meeting, and they told us to talk to this one gentleman.

He came up, and he had a cross around his neck and everything, and he was really nice. So anyway,

I saw my mom out in the audience talking to some people, and they were pointing up at me. So I'm thinking,

Oh, well, she's met some friends. That next day, I said to her I wanted to find a church.

I needed to go to a church. And so she had said she had just found a church the week before. And it turns out that these people that she was talking to were part of this church, and they were out there praying for me.

When I walked into the church that Sunday, I thought they were going to fall off their chairs because it turns out they were out there praying for me.

Now it turns out they were part of a four -square gospel church. I'm not sure how familiar you are with four -square, but I didn't know anything about anything.

I didn't know the Bible. All I knew was something. I met Jesus, if you will.

That was a denomination that wasn't Amy Simple McPherson involved in that?

Yeah. Not exactly known as a giant of theological knowledge? Yeah. It's a

Pentecostal church. I didn't know anything about anything. I didn't know the Bible. I didn't know doctrine. All I knew was the week before, my mom was coming down the street.

Like I said, she had some issues. At night, coming down the street, she had this sudden urge to have somebody pray for her.

She just happened to walk past this little sign. This church was meeting in the former funeral home that our community had all the funerals growing up in.

She walked in, and two couples met her at the door. She said she needed prayer, and they took her in, prayed for her, took her home.

So she had gotten saved at the same time, basically, I did. We just didn't know it. She told me later, she grew up thinking she was a

Christian, but she knew better when she did get saved. So I'm saying all this to say how my journey to reform doctrine actually started that day

I got saved. Because while I didn't know anything, I didn't know doctrine, I didn't know the

Bible, I knew something happened to me that I wasn't seeking.

I didn't cause to happen. I didn't make happen. But it transformed me.

It began this journey of changing my life. Now, it was over a period of time, things started changing.

I started coming to the church, went down to the bookstore, got a Bible, and started reading the

Bible. I didn't understand a lot, but I had this hunger for the Bible. I just wanted to study it, wanted to read.

And I knew, again, just something arrested me, found me.

So my buddy, then I remember him giving me a copy, telling me to read this book by A .W.

Pink, whom I had never heard of. Sovereignty of God? No. The first one was

The Doctrine of Salvation. And I read it, I started reading it, and it was just like, yeah, this is it, grace.

Yeah, I started understanding the wonders of God's grace and the sovereign grace, if you will.

And I just started reading more, I wanted to know more. So I got another book by Pink.

Sovereignty of God was one that really... So I started understanding doctrine.

I started reading the Bible, and so that began my journey.

I wasn't actually being taught, and I don't want to be misunderstood like I'm being critical of others or other...

Even the pastor at the time, I owe him so much, my first pastor.

I owe the church a lot. I'm no longer Pentecostal. I know that's going to shock some of my friends or whatever, but I owe them a lot.

And he taught us about Jesus, and we were really rejoicing, worshipping, and growing in grace.

But the more I started studying and started reading, especially reading the scriptures, I just...

I don't know how to express it, Chris. I'm losing... I just sensed that there was so much more that I wanted and needed.

So I started reading. I felt a call, and I couldn't even put it into words, that I wanted to serve the

Lord. I didn't know what I wanted to do except I was going to play music. I was writing music, playing music, and I wanted to preach the

Bible, teach the Bible. And so, long story short, I ended up going...

First, the pastor appointed me as assistant pastor, and basically it was just...

I didn't know anything. I was a novice, but he discipled me. He was investing into my life.

I ended up going to California. I got married first.

I met my wife. All of those pink books paid off because I was going down to the local

Christian bookstore. It was run by a Mennonite couple, and they were so nice to me and so good.

I got to know them as I was going in there buying books. Pink would mention one of his books.

He mentioned Owen, John Owen. I don't know who these people were, Puritans and Jonathan Edwards.

So anything I could get, I tried to order and find. But going into this bookstore, that's where I ended up meeting my wife.

We got married. A whole bunch of good stuff happening. I'm telling you, it was just amazing.

It was rough, too. Things didn't just start changing right away. I was still struggling with certain issues, but I was growing.

It was all new. It was a strange new world for me to be going to church and cleaning up my act.

I shocked my mom. I shocked my friends. I started wearing a three -piece suit to church. I used to go around and bib overalls with my

Afro. Now here I am. Not that they made me wear a suit. I just wanted to clean up.

Hey, things are changing. So anyway, we got married, and we moved out to Los Angeles to go to Bible college.

I went to Life Bible College in L .A. This was as I was growing more and more in my understanding of Reformed doctrine.

I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Reformed doctrine. I was just understanding certain things in the

Scriptures. Is Life Bible College a theologically Reformed college? It was affiliated with Foursquare, and it was a four -year college.

So it was not Reformed then? Pardon? Then it was definitely not Reformed. I'm really having trouble hearing you,

Chris. But it was not a Reformed college. But I was committed to being in the

Foursquare, and nobody was telling me what not to preach or what to preach, but I was just being faithful to what

I was understanding. But I went out to the school, but I was starting to have some questions, to be honest with you, about some of the practices of Pentecostalism.

But I thought, well, what do I do? I'll just have to pray about it or study some more, as long as nobody's forcing me to do something or do this.

I went out to school. What began to happen, though, as I was studying, and again, good people, loving brothers and sisters, but doctrinal issues were starting to come up, and I remember being in a

Greek exegesis class, and I don't know Greek. I mean, I studied in Bible college, but again, the

Lord, the professor had us pick out verses from a hat. We were going to do our study, our term paper on, and I reached in the hat and pulled out

Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1 through 10. I thought, oh, wow, that's providential.

And so I did my paper on Ephesians, one that, you know, by grace you are saved, you fade that, and out of yourselves is the gift of God, not of worse.

The professor got up. He read the paper in the class, and he said, this is a great example of good scholarship, and I'm thinking, wow,

I'm sure you're reading the right guy, but I thought, okay, that's good, but then he turns right around and starts ripping it apart.

Wow. I raised my hand. I said, excuse me, sir. You just got done saying, what is it about this paper that you don't agree with?

We're saved by grace through faith, and he turned around in front of the whole class, and he was angry.

His face was actually red, and he said, you're a Calvinist. That was my first, boom, like, wow,

I'm a Calvinist. Well, I said, that's fine with me. I mean, I love

John Calvin. I don't have a problem with being called a Calvinist. I said, but this is Bible.

I didn't mention Calvin's name, but I'm here at this school. I'm paying money to learn.

Anyway, that was an eye -opener for me, and I thought, well, I still didn't.

You know, after I graduated, my wife and I ended up moving back to Allentown, Pennsylvania, and started a church.

We pioneered the church. It was still a four -square church, and nobody was pressuring us.

I mean, we started from scratch, and all my ministry, I don't set out, I'm not going to preach Calvin or preach.

I just want to try my best to preach scriptures, and I'm certainly the first one to tell you that I'm well aware of my shortcomings, but I started preaching expositorily.

I like to pick a book of the Bible and work through it, and teaching expositorily.

And the people, it was all new to the people that we were reaching, but they were receiving.

The church was slowly starting to grow, but it was a struggle.

We were there for eight years, and by the time, by the end of the eight years, I have to be honest, we were feeling burned out for a number of reasons.

I was, my last year there, I had the opportunity also to teach at Teen Challenge Training Center in Raresburg.

So my wife and son and I, we would drive back and forth. I would teach at Raresburg, still pastor at Allentown.

So one day I just felt it was time, and it was hard because the people that were there, they loved us and they wanted us to stay, but I just felt that it was time to leave.

After eight years or so, we went to Teen Challenge, and it just was, even that was a blessing in many ways, ministering to the men.

I have a real heart for men, addictions, and struggle because of my past. But there was just growing conflict with certain staff, certain, and once again,

I wasn't preaching Calvin. I wasn't preaching reform. I was just teaching the Bible. They had me teaching

Ephesians and had me teaching Galatians and had me teaching, and I was great.

I was a chaplain. But things started happening in terms of having to have people come who were quite frankly involved in some, in my opinion, extreme behaviors as far as like the

Holy Spirit, and we can get into that later on. But I just, after a while,

I just, I can't stay. I can't keep fighting this. Well, why don't you at least mention something about how they were misusing the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit because obviously we who are reformed believe in, love, preach, and teach the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit. He is one of the three persons of the Godhead.

So why don't you tell us about, at least in summary form, what was aberrant that you could see?

Please just repeat a little bit of that. What was the aberrant doctrine about the Holy Spirit that you saw and heard?

Well, with the gifts, as far as like speaking in tongues and prophesying, to get more extreme in terms of some of the speakers that I was required to have come.

And again, I know there are, and this is one of the reasons why I really feel it's important to trust the

Lord to build this church. And I've been, as a pastor, speaking to other pastors,

I know how easy it is to get discouraged and how people, we can look at the church in general and see there are reasons that we could probably be discouraged, but we must understand, and I think

Reformed theology, at least for me, has really helped given me a foundation, even though I still get at times weary and discouraged and there's reasons,

I have utmost confidence that God will build this church. Now, there are things, the church has always been susceptible to different teachings, wrong teachings, false teachings, different experiences in the body.

And so I just had some of these issues, it seemed to me that they were getting more and more extreme.

And I attribute some of it back to a difference of understanding in terms of theology.

For instance, what I'm saying, to me the overall doctrine, and you had mentioned the sovereignty of God by A .W.

Pink, and to me that's the most fundamental and important doctrine of all.

And we've been studying that book in our Wednesday nights. But the verse that the

Lord said in Matthew 16, on this rock I will build my church, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I see how what the Bible describes, how the Bible describes the church of Jesus Christ, whether it's

Bernville, you know, wherever. It's not a particular denomination. We know that the church, for instance, were the temple of the living

God, where Ephesians 2 says that we're fellow citizens with the saints, members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole structure grows together.

We're the household of God, Paul says, the church of the living God, the pillar and buttress of the truth.

Peter described us as a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a people for his own possession.

Just think of how the Bible describes the church, the kingdom of priests and to God.

And so the sovereignty of God is foundational. He is the one who is building his church.

We're his church. And we can look at it from a human standpoint and see many reasons to be discouraged, all the different denominations people seize on that.

Well, the church is so divided. You've got all these different, and it's true. And later on, if we have time, if you'd like,

I'd like to give you some of the reasons, more specifically why I'm more than confident in the church.

But the sovereignty of God is the foundation of it all. The Bible is so clear, and that's the thing that I was starting to see as I was reading and praying.

The Bible is such a wonderful book. It's God's book because of the revelation that it gives to us of God himself, that we could never have devised on our own.

Man never would have devised this picture that the Bible paints of God himself, sovereign over all things.

Psalm 113, Who is like the Lord our God who is enthroned on high, who humbles himself to behold the things in heaven and earth?

Our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases. The Lord is great and does what he pleases.

And I was reading, been reading verses like this and thinking, yeah, God is, I don't, who can even fathom?

Where would this come from if not from God himself? But then we see in our own lives and even in our, some theology that people want to always place qualifications on the sovereignty of God.

And we try to fit our views and our understanding into, so that it fits in with this view.

And so we limit God to one way or another. And I began to see that some theologies do that, place limitations on God, especially in the area of salvation.

I began to see a distinction between whatever label you want to put, Calvinist or Arminian.

And I'm not saying for one minute that Arminians don't love the Lord or that they're not, they're not saved and only

Calvinists. I would never say that or think that. But I would get into some of the discussions with some of my

Arminian brothers, and they would want to challenge me on, for instance, by grace you're saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of worse.

How can you put a, if you put a limitation on that and say, God's grace is, he's not sovereign in grace, well then you're almost tempted to make faith a work itself.

And I would say, whatever you understand about doctrine,

I would ask anybody, whether they're Arminian or Calvin, Calvinist, Reformed, Non -Reformed, when you're on your knees praying, if you're truly saved, you love

Jesus Christ, how much glory do you give him for your salvation?

Do you give all the glory to God or 99 % of the glory? Because if you take it upon yourself to say, well,

God did all that he's going to do, and now it's up to me to do the rest, then you're taking some of the glory away from God, as far as I can see.

Yes, and we're going to have to go to our first station break right now, and we're going to switch to Microsoft Teams to do our, to conduct.

I'm having trouble getting Microsoft Teams. I'm on an Apple. So am I. I don't know why you'd be, but we're going to have to stick with this then.

Yeah, I'm trying to download Teams. All right, we'll just stick with this method, and you seem to be hearing me now fine.

All right, as long as they can hear me, I'll do my best. My webmaster said you're coming through loud and clear, so let's just stick with what we're doing then.

All right, Chris. All right, we're going to our first commercial break, and we'll be right back with Mark Ortiz, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when making your purchase. That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with our guest,

Mark Ortiz, and he is the pastor of Grace Reform Fellowship in Burnville, Pennsylvania.

We are discussing trusting the Lord to build his church. Right before the break, you were talking about how you were becoming increasingly more troubled by the

Arminians, not only in church, but also in the Bible college and even on the faculty that were limiting the power of Jesus Christ in their words.

Of course, nothing can actually limit the power of Jesus Christ, but in their words and teachings, and especially in the area of salvation.

If you want to pick up right where you left off there, and then we'll move to our main theme of the church.

Again, I think every Christian, if they're honest, when they're on their knees praying to God, has to give

God all the glory. And I said, well, that's basically, if you want to call it Calvinism or reform, that's basically it in a nutshell.

God is the author, initiator of salvation. He planned it, his son bought it, purchased it, and the

Holy Spirit applies it. Now, say, well, what about our faith? Well, again, yeah, we do believe, but reform theology undergirds all of soteriology, if you will.

You can't read the Bible, at least I can't, without being confronted with the fact that we are totally dependent on God for life and breath and salvation itself.

You know, people don't want to deal with, I guess, the full implications of these truths, but the

Bible makes it clear, and it was interesting, because when I referenced Ephesians chapter 2, when

I was in Bible college, I was thrilled that I got to pick that verse, and if that verse was the only verse of verses that we had, it would make it very clear.

It starts out, again, in chapter 2, you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked.

Now, we're not literally dead, physically dead, but we're spiritually dead, not spiritually sick, not spiritually wounded.

We're dead in sins, and we live in sins. We follow the course of this world, following the prince, the power of the air, etc.

What can bring us out of that? Well, certainly not ourselves, not some act of our own will or our own mind or thought.

The Bible speaks clearly that God being rich in mercy, mercy, pity to the miserable, the ones who are lost, even when we were dead in our trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ.

By grace, you have been saved. I did not understand the Scriptures, didn't know the

Scriptures, but I knew, again, something happened I didn't deserve. I had this overwhelming sense of being lost, and then

I had forgiveness and mercy. And as I learned, Jesus Christ gave himself for sinners.

Now, every doctrine is tied into this. You know, people argue over tulip and the five solas.

To me, once again, I can't imagine arguing over these truths as a

Christian. Total depravity. Now, they're misunderstood. All of these doctrines are misunderstood, partly because sometimes we as pastors and teachers do such a poor job in teaching and expressing these truths.

We're novices. I was a novice. If I go back and think of all the mistakes

I made over my years as a pastor, and this really takes me to the subject of trusting the

Lord to build his church, when I think of the vessels that he uses, yours truly included, it truly is a wonder and a testimony of his almighty grace that there will be a church.

There is a church, and yet there is, because of God. But sometimes we are imbalanced in our presentations, or we expect people to chew on these deep doctrines without preparing them, you know, with biblical, as Peter said, the sincere milk of the word, for instance.

We cause so much misunderstanding, but our own flesh causes us to misunderstand. Total depravity.

If you read the Bible, you'll see that it makes it clear that every part of our being, we're not as bad as we could possibly be.

We're not totally depraved in that sense, but every faculty of the human being is tainted and ruined by sin.

Our minds are darkened. Our wills are enslaved to sin. We love sin. That's all we do, our wills, our minds, our hearts.

And so that's total depravity. There's nothing good in us in terms of spiritual good.

People say, well, that's a good guy, but we're all relative. We're talking relative to one another, but not relative to the almighty and holy and righteous

God. We're lost. The Bible makes that clear. We're lost. We're dead.

We're doomed. We're under the wrath and judgment of God, and that's part of the problem with much of the modern church in terms of the preaching, in terms of the teaching.

Too much of it is so human -oriented, self -oriented, and not

God -centered preaching, and that's why, again, I try my best to preach expositorily, to go through the

Bible, Old and New Testament. The more you understand the Scriptures, you can see how human experience lines up.

We're living in... Look at the days in which we're living now and tell me that man isn't fallen, that man isn't corrupt, that man isn't depraved, if you will, total depravity.

People argue over election, and yet I can't see how you can read your Bible and read not only the

New Testament but the Old Testament as well and not understand the doctrine of election.

Now, again, we'll argue over what caused the election, what prompted God to elect.

Is it on foreseen faith or His mercy and grace? I would answer that it can't be foreseen faith because God would wait all of eternity, and the only thing

He would see us do is reject and unbelief. No faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the

Word of Christ. Even faith is a gift of God. And faith, by the way, is not a work of merit.

It's an empty hand reaching out and receiving what God Himself has done. We have to go to our midway break right now.

We're going to pick up where you left off. And if anybody has a question for my guest,

Mark Ortiz, on trusting the Lord to build his church, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We also ask of you, since this is a longer than normal break, required of us to be longer than normal by Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, because they are required by the FCC to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida.

And they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air in the middle of the show.

While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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Please contact as many of our advertisers as you can and thank them for sponsoring this show.

We would love it if you very frequently purchased what they are selling and support their parachurch organizations and visit their churches whenever possible.

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Iron Shop and Zion Radio if indeed you really love the show and don't want it to go off the air.

We depend on our advertisers to exist, folks. We cannot survive merely on the donations that come in because tragically, they have plummeted to an all -new low after the

COVID mandate hysteria that has occurred in our country. We have never recovered from it.

So we need our advertisers. Please let our advertisers know that you value them because they value us.

And also, as I said, send in your questions to Mark Ortiz, to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Don't go away. We are going to be right back with Mark Ortiz after these messages.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Shop and Zion Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Shop and Zion Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Shop and Zion is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Shop and Zion Radio, Dr.

Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the

ReformRookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show, like I do, you can now find it on the

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio and thanks for listening. Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church Reformed Baptist Church Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York Reformed Baptist Church Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York 1 -800 -656 -0231, that s 1 -800 -656 -0231.

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Please let our friends at autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Before I return to our guest Mark Ortiz and our discussion on trusting the

Lord to build his church, we just have a couple of very important announcements to make. First of all, if you love this show folks and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,

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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid, biblically faithful church, no matter where you live in the world,

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of good solid churches and I may be able to help you find a church even sometimes within a few minutes of your home as I have done with many people all over the planet earth in the

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and put, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to pastor

Mark Ortiz in regard to our theme, trusting the Lord to build his church.

Pastor Mark, I would like you to enter into our actual theme right now. You've given us a good base as far as your journey theologically and how you see a lack of trusting in the sovereignty of God in many churches and in the particular

Bible college you went to talk about why we need to trust God to build his church.

Well, Chris, you know, trusting the Lord to build his church.

I alluded earlier, when I think of the church who the church is, it's a make, it's a miracle to me.

The church of Jesus Christ is a miracle. And again, I'm not thinking just in terms of a local church car.

I'm talking about the church of Jesus Christ. When you think of the what God has to work with and here tonight was just an example of our weakness.

I'm feeling like I'm frustrated. I get a little concerning, just technical things.

I know as a pastor and I'm sure I'm not the only one that many pastors struggle with discouragement, not just pastors, but church leaders, church, even

Christians, but pastors especially struggle with discouragement. The pressures that are involved in pastoring the church of whatever size, whatever congregation, it can be a very difficult life.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I remember years ago hearing surveys that the average pastor lasts about eight years, five to eight years in a particular church and either burnout or whatever the reasons are.

And I have gone through, especially my times as well, my wife and I and the family of discouragement, of weariness, of feeling the pressures of trying to make the church grow, trying to be quote unquote successful in the ministry.

These pressures are real, especially when you think of everything that we were up against from the world around us and even within the church world.

I was reminded of the scripture in first Corinthians where Paul said, remember your consider your calling brothers.

Not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many powerful, not many noble birth, but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise.

And that's even more true, I think, of many of the servants that he uses, especially yours truly.

I really honestly feel that way. Sometimes it's a marvel to me that I have been in the pastor for, as I said here in Burnville, this is coming up the end of our 24th year.

It's been eight years. My wife and I in Allentown, five years in Teen Challenge.

We're out in LA and in Pottsville. And when I'm aware of my own weaknesses and shortcomings and struggles over the years, sometimes

I find myself thinking it's a wonder that anybody would want to have us as their pastors.

And yet we've been blessed with such a loving and wonderful group of people who bear with us with our weaknesses and shortcomings, even as we have to bear with others and one another.

And yet God, I believe, because of the commitment to his word and the truths of his word, it's what the church is built on and will continue to be built on.

He said, I will build my church on this rock, the rock of Jesus Christ and the truth of who

Christ is. So I find great comfort in that. And when we came here, again, we were just preaching.

The search committee told me when I interviewed for this position, we want to be taught the

Bible. We want the Bible. And so I said,

Oh great, that's what I want to do. I want to teach. But it wasn't too long when I started teaching that first started flying and started teaching

Ephesians and et cetera. But I think some of the mistakes I made was assuming that everybody felt the same way and maybe everybody was at the same place of wanting these doctrines and these truths.

And I found that that wasn't true and there was a misunderstanding. There was a lot of stress.

People left the church. People were upset for a number of different reasons. And I'm not putting the blame on everybody else and saying

I made my share of mistakes, but I was committed. You know, we were taught some of the church growth tactics that people, you know, we were taught, um, finding people's felt needs and seekers sensitive secret.

I don't see it in the Bible because no one seeks after God. The things that we, that people want many, many ways are antithetical to the antithetical to the gospel itself.

People. So you could, we could decide if we're going to do gimmicks and appeal to the people's flesh and whether it's through music, through the worship, through the, through the message or we're going to faithfully seek to teach

God's word and tell people the truth. Even when it comes to salvation, the message of salvation,

God, we must trust God and it's not always easy to trust God to build his church. God's church though is built upon the foundation of the prophets, the apostles,

Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, but it takes faith. It takes commitment.

It takes the help and the encouragement of believers. And that's what happened here at Burnville began to happen after the first three years, three and a half years,

I started to feel like I made a big mistake by coming to seem like a constant battle, constant challenge to the things we were being taught, having to not continue with certain teachings and certain things that were being popular at the time, word, faith, and different things of that nature, having to come against certain teachings, very discouraged.

But there were a couple families for the original folks that were here when we first got here, committed, said, we want you to stay.

We want, we want to continue to hear, to be taught. And then the Lord, once one here, one there started providentially bringing a few families of a friend from teen challenge days and others.

And it was time and time again, people were telling me we're hungry. We were hungry for the word.

We want to be taught the word and not just stories or not just parts of the Bible.

We want to be taught. And I just was humbled and said, well, that's all

I want to do. And I'm trying my best to do that, to teach the Bible. And slowly the church began to solidify, if you will, the people there's a, and we're all at different stages.

Not everybody, even here at the church now, I'd say would are well versed, if you will, in reformed doctrine or that could tell you the doctrines of grace and the, but they're hungry and they're, they're open and they want to receive, they want to grow and more and more people are coming.

And it's just, it's been so gratifying to my wife and I, and in the midst of, you know, our heartaches, we all have them, not just pastors.

You know, we live in a society right now. That's so antithetic. It's just hatred is growing for the gospel.

Now the church has always had to deal with that, with persecution, with opposition. You go back to the very first generation and the, the world is always hated

Christ and the, and the hate is church. Church has always had to face false doctrines, false teachers and false prophets.

We were just finishing up our series in the book of Job, Jude, where he says, earnestly contend for the faith.

Well that can sometimes bring a pastor into conflict with people because they don't want to, they think you're being too negative or you're always coming against this or coming against that.

But part of our role as pastors and shepherds is to protect the flock and to guard against false doctrine.

Not, as I said to the congregation, it's not every disagreement. We're going to disagree on particular points.

None of us see eye to eye on everything, but the heart of the gospel is so clear and it's so important, but you have so -called

Christian teachers today denying some of the very fundamentals of, of the faith, preaching actual heresy.

And there are many people that are illiterate when it comes to the Bible, that they're just soaking it all up.

And that's part of the stress and part of the trials for leaders, not just pastors, but to contend for the faith, but to feed the flock because we deal with our own shortcomings.

We deal with our own sense of, you know, who am I to be killing people this or to be, I don't want to be unloving.

I don't want to be critical. I don't want to be. And we all have that human nature where we want to be liked.

We want to be accepted. We want to be. So pastors struggle with that. And yet we're called by God to be faithful and not successful.

Too many people, the first question they ask you when you ask about your church is how many do you have? How many were there on Sunday?

How many programs you have? How you do that? And they don't ask, how are the people growing? How are, you know, what?

It's just, it's an amazing thing, but we're not called to be men pleasers, but by nature, we tend to be pleasing wanting to please the flesh.

And the fear of man is a snare. We have a Lister Christian from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says is not an evidence that people are not trusting in the

Lord to build his church, that they are focusing far too much on the number of visitors they receive in the number of members they have.

This is relating to what you were just saying. And when you can be, when you become consumed with this, like it's a contest with other churches, it really is a dangerous sign that you are ready to abandon.

The Bible is the blueprint for conducting church and you start to develop and adopt these gimmicks that you were talking about before.

Am I right? Yeah. It's a, if I heard, heard your question, right?

The question is, is it's not a sign of lack of faith, trusting in God. If you're interested in numbers or the number of people that you have and somebody might say, well, that's because you're not,

I've never pastored a large church, whatever a large church is. Most churches in America, I think the average church,

I don't know, but it's, it's not thousands of people. These mega churches, some are good, but many of them are not.

As far as I'm concerned, we want to be fruitful and we want to be faithful and we want to be reaching people.

But the degree of our quote unquote success to me doesn't depend upon how many you have because again, you can the most prosperous and large church in America is pastored by one of the,

I was just trying to control myself, but not getting to, but some of the false doctrines and false teachers are some of the most successful quote unquote.

Like Joe Austin, you mean? Yeah. You know, there you go. Um, I, we don't, we're not called to be successful.

We're called to be faithful. Now I want to reach as many people as possible, but here's part of the thing with the church and trusting

God, we all don't have the same abilities. I wish I could preach like Spurgeon.

You know, I wish I could preach like, you know, John Calvin or, um, I would, uh, John McArthur or R .C.

Sproul or some of the other greats, you know, um, I don't have the, I'm not as eloquent or, but that's okay.

I'm not, someone else would say, I wish they could play guitar like me or talk. It's not our own eloquence, our own.

I want to do better. I want to learn. I'm still learning. I'm still a student. I want to grow, but it's the bottom line is it's not based upon our successes and measured by how many people or how many, um, again, are we teaching people?

Are we leading them to Christ? Are we teach, trying to teach the whole council of God, not just our particular hobby horses or our own particular things that are pleasing to men.

I think of Paul, um, and Galatians speaking of the, um, man pleasers, you know, and the gospel real quick, you know, why is the gospel hated?

And it is, it is hated in this world. It strips man of all grounds of boasting.

The true gospel, it renders us without any grounds to boast before God. The gospel proclaims the utter sinfulness of man.

We're not just sick. We're not just sad. We're not just, we're lost before holy and righteous

God because it proclaims the absolute holiness of God. It exposes the emptiness of man's wisdom.

Look at the world today. They're going more and more crazy. The things that are being promoted in our society by this culture, it's absolute lunacy.

The Bible speaks of this and sin and this progression of sin. It declares the total defeat and judgment of Satan.

It declares the glorious majesty and victory of the son of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And that's why Paul said, I'm not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation, not gimmicks, not tricks, not, uh, different things that we might tend to, you know, try to find out what people want in church.

And then we do that. That's not biblical. That's not biblical. And proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yes, God loves, but man is under sin, under judgment. That's the most loving thing we can tell people is that you need to repent, repent and believe, not just say a little quick little prayer.

If you repeat this prayer after me, you're saved. How many, how many people, when we were in Allentown real quick, um,

I was involved. We supported a ministry that fed the poor, which was great. They'd have minutes, dinners,

Thanksgiving, Christmas, the community, the homeless poor. So every, um, meaning they would ask me, usually

I would preach. One of the other brothers would preach. I do some singing, you know, the music.

And then the brother in charge would always give an altar call, which that's a whole nother show.

But he would give an altar call and people would come up to the altar. And then they would give out food.

Well, he would, I saw him writing down these numbers every, every year. He'd write down, you know, 50 saved, 80 saved.

I said, what are you doing? He said, I got to send in the report to the headquarters. Uh, whatever.

Next year, same thing. And I, the same lot of the same faces were coming back up to get saved.

Here's Bill, there's Pete, there's Susie. Got to the point where they would be like, Hey, pastor. Hi Bill.

How are you? Yeah. Coming up to get, to get saved. It's like, no, you need to get saved.

The kind of thing where it's just like say this prayer. And so much of evangelicalism, that's what it is.

There's no, in my estimation, a true reliance upon the power of God to bring about true conversion.

And because the message isn't being proclaimed, yeah. And, uh, I just want to clarify something you said earlier.

You said that we're not to be, uh, gauging, uh, the fruit of our labors in a church by its success.

I, I think that you likely meant by success in the world's standards, because obviously, uh, growing in, uh, the understanding and obedience of the word of God and the growth in sanctification revealed by the members and, uh, souls coming to repentance and salvation, you know, those are in God's eyes, successful results, but not necessarily what men would deem to be successful.

I'm sure that's what you meant. Correct. Yeah. And you know, part of the role of a pastor teachers is to equip the saints to do the work of ministry and to go out and not everybody has the same gifts, the same abilities, the same role, the same, but we're all a bear witness.

God gives us opportunity, but it's, it's how the church builds itself up in love.

Paul speaks in, in Ephesians. And I look at the church and again, we can, from a natural stamp, we look at the church and we say, how can you use this?

God, how can you accomplish the purpose that one day you said that you will when the church is so seemingly divided or so weak or so, but we're looking at things outwardly, looking at things.

God sees it different. In other words, the evil build up his church is beautiful bride.

Yeah. We're not there yet. We're being sanctified. We're in this process of, but one day, and we must keep hope, keep our focus on eternal values, eternity itself.

We're looking where the church is undergoing, and I believe the darker days are even, are even going to be upon us.

I don't want to be doom and gloom. I just want to be for real that Christians are not going to be exempt. We never have been exempt from persecution, from suffering, but it's what grounds us will drive us even deeper to put our roots in Christ and our hope and our faith in the world to come.

People say, well, that's pie in the sky. No, it's just being real. It's being honest. It's being focused upon God who is our hope.

It's all about Christ, the glory of Jesus Christ and the miracle, the wonder of being into in his body, being saved.

I've never lost that sense from that first day to this day of wonder.

I fail the Lord. We all do. We're all in this process of growing and the church where we learn to love one another, bear with one another, forgive one another.

We're all in this different stages of growth. That's one of the wonders of the gospel is you can take people from such different backgrounds, different hangups, different races, different.

It's just an amazing, an amazing thing. But sometimes it takes courage. It takes courage to speak the truth in love even to some of the cultural issues.

There are many preachers that don't want to take a stand on some of the issues of our day abortion and some of the sexual lunacy and it's, you don't want to be, we're not being holier than thou or self -righteous, but we were called to warn people.

We need to be a watchman. That's one of the roles I think of a pastor is to stand on the wall and give warning, give warning, leave from the wrath to come because it's real.

The wrath of God is real, but so is the provision that God has made through Jesus Christ and all who believe.

He said, well, I thought you believe in the election. I do. The secret things belong to the Lord, our God, the things he's revealed belong to us.

I can't look at anybody and say whether they're elect or not elect, but all

I can do is say they're sinners and if you repent and believe the gospel, you shall be saved.

But I also know that I must depend upon God to give the increase. Only he can quicken a dead soul and bring them out of death into eternal life.

Amen. And I am assuming you would agree with me that we are not to be totally unconcerned about a church being stagnant in its numeric growth, especially if the growth is solely because of regenerate

Christians finding out about the church and joining it because they like what they have heard and what they see when they visit and that none of the growth or very little of it is from converts to Christ.

But it's not that we shouldn't be concerned and wonder what we may be doing incorrectly and in violation of the scriptures, but we are not to be solely or predominantly driven by numbers and consumed by them, right?

We want to see the church grow and we're excited, believe me, every time a new family comes or a new individual comes and there's a new church, we're open to the things of God and the

Lord's move. It thrills us and we're excited. We're not saying, Oh, we just want to stay a small little church so we can be right or to all large churches and growing churches are wrong.

No, of course not. All I'm saying is we're not all going to be in the same, same place.

We're not going to have the same influence, the same opportunities. It's God, it's his sovereignty, it's his providence.

It's his, I mean, I'm blessed to be here talking to you that I didn't think,

I didn't have, think I'd have an opportunity to be on with you and to have this opportunity to speak to a number of people.

But I'm thankful for the opportunity and I just, I used to have this dream, be honest with you, be a

Christian music star or whatever. I don't want to use that word, but you know, a recording artist and, and that's good for, you know, and I, I think the

Lord had to, I don't want to say beat it out of me, but he took it, he took it from me a long time ago.

It still raises its wear up. I mean, I love, I love music. I love, I want to serve the

Lord that way, but I'm so blessed to be doing what I'm doing where I'm doing it with my wife

Charlotte. I can't tell you, doesn't mean we still don't have times, but God is,

I'm real content with, with who I am, with what he's doing and I pray for all errors who are in the service and in the kingdom.

He will build his church. That's our hope and it's worldwide.

One day we'll stand in glory, pure, clean, and it's hard to see right now, but again, we walk by faith and not by, and not by sight.

And I just, I guess mainly I want to encourage if anyone's listening, pastor or sir, who is discouraged and who might be feeding into that mindset that, man,

I'm not being successful. I'm not being, you know, I mean, people, I've known pastors in past who were so desperate to see their church quote unquote grow that they were buying into, you know, they'd hear about a revival happening somewhere else,

Florida. They would even take bus loads down to Florida so that they could soak in what they were doing there in Florida and then try to bring it back here to Pennsylvania.

And a lot of it was just the music they were doing. We got to do the music, the gestures and the jumping up and down and falling around on the floor.

We got to do that here because it's growing there. It's good. No, this is mentality of, we got to try it.

Whatever's going to work. It must be working there. Not once that they say we got to preach God's word.

We have to, and there's so much of that mentality. It's pragmatism. What works? It's marketing.

It's no, that's not the gospel. That's not biblical. And that's growing the church primarily with goats, not with sheep.

Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And we have to go to our final break right now. Uh, if you have a question, send it in right away because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our number or our email address, I should say, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us a first name at least. City and state and country of residence.

We'll be right back. Please don't go away. As host of iron sharpens, iron radio.

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If you just tuned to center guests today has been for the entirety of the program.

Pastor Mark Ortiz of Grace Reform Fellowship of Burnville, Pennsylvania.

We have been discussing trusting the Lord to build his church, and I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners, uh, before they leave this program about this theme about trusting the

Lord to build his church. Well, again, it's, um, I'm learning that we can trust

God's word for one thing. His word is true. We don't need to apologize for it or, um, seek to water it down.

We need to seek to understand it more and be committed to teaching, seeking to teach the whole counsel of God, working through the

Bible, teaching the people to love the Bible word of God. I've sometimes said to the church, um, there are certain people who accuse us of being bibliologists, which

I don't even know what that name, but why any Christian would ever accuse another Christian of spending too much time in the

Bible. We don't need private words. We don't need private revelations. We need to know the word of God and be fearless in proclaiming it, teaching it, proclaiming it in love, speaking the truth in love, the whole counsel of God.

Paul said, I didn't shrink back from declaring to you anything that was profitable. And so we trust

God to build his church, trusting him that he will accomplish his purpose for which he sent his son,

Jesus Christ into this world. And the world is more and more going mad, but they need truth and we need to have the courage to speak it.

It's the only thing that will set men and women free, the truth, building up his people for that day when he will soon return as which we look forward to.

We even say Maranatha, even so come quickly, Lord Jesus. So pastors out there and servants of God be encouraged and stay rooted and grounded in his love.

And the Lord will accomplish the work which he has called us all to serve and honor him.

Jesus reigns and he will be glorified. Arnie in Perry County asks, what must we not be very careful as church leaders, not to use

Christmas as a means to entertain the lost and just speak about the meek mile and lowly babe in the manger who is harmless.

Must we not remember, although the Christmas story of the babe in the manger is important, that we must preach the whole gospel, which includes the necessity to repent and believe or experience eternal damnation.

Must we not do this even during Christmas? The whole gospel is the message of Jesus Christ, son of God came into this world to redeem a people unto himself.

And we can proclaim a risen, glorious savior, and just pray that he would be glorified this year, this season, every season.

It's all about Jesus. It's him we love, it's him we proclaim, and we're not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's my message and stay faithful and stay committed to him. But Chris, I just wanted to thank you again for this opportunity.

And I want to thank you for the work that you're doing. And I'm so grateful for this chance that I've had to get the name.

Looking forward to meeting you face to face one of these days, brother. Thank you again. Oh, it's been my pleasure, brother.

And we do have another question from a listener.

And this is Susan Margaret from Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

And Susan Margaret says, what do you think is a practical way to prevent church leaders from not trusting in God to build his church?

For not trusting God, I think it's, again, I come back to a lack of trust in the word of God and taking

God's word in totality, that God is sovereign. What does that mean?

He's in control of all. I know it sounds like almost like a cliche, but God's word is true.

We don't have to rely upon man's. It's not like a product that we're selling or something that we have to try to make appealing to the natural man, because it'll never be appealing.

It's the power of God unto salvation. And so I think it's a lack of trust and a lack of teaching and understanding of whole counsel of God that keeps us from trusting

God to build this church, because we walk by sight. And again, we see so much in the outward church that would tend to make us discouraged of ever hoping and trusting that this was all going to work according to God's purpose and plan.

But it is. And even, you know, the apparent weaknesses, the divisions, the stress, he's going to bring about this glorious plan.

I will build my church. But not all that is part of Christendom is part of the church, the true church of Jesus Christ.

He will bring, make it clear as time goes on, the wheat from the chaff, etc.

It takes faith. It takes commitment. It takes submission to the Lord. I'm not saying it's easy because, believe me,

I'm not the one to say I never get discouraged, but we have to resist it. We have to fight it.

We have to continually walk by faith and not by sight. And that's trusting in the word of God.

And I don't have really another answer to give to that. It's just we work it out day by day, day in, day out.

Well, I just want to repeat your website to our listeners. It's gracereformedburnville .com,

gracereformedburnville, and that's spelt b -e -r -n -ville .com.

It's been a great pleasure having you on the program today. I look forward to having you back, Pastor Mark.

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