Submission: Should Wives Obey Their Husbands Like a Child Would Obey A Parent

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Welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions

You're not allowed to ask We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age -old question

Should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent now.

We've had a lot of pushback from plenty of the episodes that we've put out over the last several weeks and normally the pushback comes from Pagans from you know, the unsaved people who don't understand the

Bible who don't Recognize that there's a God that they should submit themselves to they

Want to rebel at every turn so obviously they reject the things that we have to say that are coming from clear scripture references

But I suspect that a topic like this should wives submit to their husband should they obey their husbands?

I've seen plenty of times where even Christians push back against this idea. They get really riled up by this thought that Women should actually be obeying their husbands.

And so Tim, why don't we just start off by you explaining? What the impulse is behind the wording of our title question should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent?

Well, it is outrageously offensive Title as far as that goes but Yeah, well, maybe we'll just Comment on the obedience part in general the idea of a wife obeying her husband is an idea

That really is not a new idea the traditional wedding vows as far as that Is concerned used to be phrased to include the idea of obedience

And so a bride would say, you know I take the you know husband to be my wedded husband to have and to hold from this day forward for better or worse for Richer -for -poorer and sickness and health to love to cherish and to obey till death do us part according to God's holy ordinance

I there to Give thee my trough Trough Whatever that yeah, that's the traditional what how wedding vows as far as that goes and this vows we've used for for a long time

For a long period of time now the obedience part is the kind of is the thing that's fallen out of fashion And now I think you have different types of people in the church

And so the pagans are obviously going to be offended by any idea of submission in general The idea of submission is a dirty word.

You don't you know, don't go there. Don't don't say that but then The eye of the the idea of obedience now, that's that's the kind of thing that that does distinguish

Christians who are broadly under you know What might be described as the complementarian camp or the patriarchy camp or whatever else?

So so the so the idea of obedience is an idea that's you uniquely offensive Even to the type of Christian to the vast majority of Christians who would consider themselves

Complementarian or who believe that there are biblical roles who believe that a wife would submit to their husband now

The problem is obviously that with the rise of you know a lot of the teaching on servant leadership and things like that the idea of submission really is an idea that is not very clearly understood and I would say for for most

Christians the idea that a wife should submit to their husband to the ones who Believe that that a wife should submit

I would say for most of them The idea of submission functionally is this kind of arbitrary thing that God?

Commands women he could have you know made men be the one who have to submit but it's kind of like a tiebreaker

Scenario where if there's ever a tiebreaker then you know, I guess The wife should follow her husband so long as you know, he's not asking her to do anything

That's too difficult and she thinks it's reasonable and everything else Maybe you know let him have the tiebreaking vote because you know, you're at a stalemate and all that But then the corresponding kind of teaching that goes along with that is that functionally, you know

I can't tell me tell you how many times I've heard pastors Who would would basically, you know be saying that a husband should

I mean they would never say it in exactly this way but that's this is exactly what they're saying, you know, I I'm always nervous if I'm in a situation where my wife doesn't agree

So functionally like the idea of submission is just this, you know mythical unicorn a white

Elephant kind of thing that should functionally never happen So if you're leading, well Your wife should always just willingly follow and there should be never a situation where she staunchly disagrees with anything you say

And so I would say the idea of submission is a very weak idea, but then the church Historically has always understood

Submission to be in a lot of ways synonymous with obedience and and there's what

Bible verses that we'll talk about over the course of the Podcasts that deal with that kind of subject particularly first Peter 3

That use the word obey in a very specific way as it relates to the wife. And so I think it's helpful to really reclaim this idea of obedience as it relates to What we're even talking about with submission and there's a lot of ideas that go with with the broader category of submission or obedience that We really need to talk talk about and so Basically the short answer is the idea of submission is is an idea that is very

Misunderstood and and obedience is a clear idea today. It gets that the nature of the kind of relationship we're talking about Okay, so now now that we've we've talked about why this is going to be probably pretty controversial even for the

Confessing Christians who listen to our podcast I can I can practically hear some of them screaming even now

Basically But I'll go ahead and ask you, you know, what's the answer to this question?

Should wives obey their husbands like a child would obey a parent? This is one of those questions is asked in a way that is so outrageous, but then logically when you actually

When you actually think about what you're communicating if you don't just emote if you don't emote Then one of the things that you realize is that I mean obedience is obedience, right?

I mean obedience is obedience. It doesn't matter who does the obedience whether it's a you know, a servant to a master whether it's a you know a citizen to a king whether it's a child to a parent whether it's a wife to a husband the idea of obedience is

An idea that it's a concept that fits into many different types of relationships

So, I mean essentially the idea of obedience no matter what the kind of relationship is is the idea

Basically do what you're told, right? Mm -hmm so when you think about it that way like the to obey is to is for like a person in a

With a person who is in an authority relationship where there's a person in authority over them to obey is to do what this person

Who is an authority over you is telling you to do and so there's no difference functionally between how a citizen would obey

King or a wife would obey a husband or a children would obey a parent. There's no difference like it's the same act

It's just there's different types of relationships that demand that if that makes sense

So so the simple answer the question is well, obviously, yes if the word obedience means anything if that makes sense

But then what's that? What's offensive about that? Is that instantaneously? What people hear is, you know, you're you're you're equating women with children or something

And it's like well no with I don't understand why your mind goes there.

I don't understand and I think a part, you know part of like What's happening is is that something strange has happened when your mind goes there?

You're saying a wife is a child and like a wife's relationship with her husband is a parent -child relationship

It's like no, it's just there's a feature in a parent -child relationship That's also the same in a husband -wife relationship one feature

There's a lot of other things that make up the relationship to make a wife Relationship with a husband totally different than a parent -child relationship

But as it relates to that one area of obedience, there's no different I mean, there's no like obedience is obedience is so as it is obedience if that makes sense

So obedience is always the same. It's the same thing now the reason I think why You know, it's offensive is in part because I think when it comes right down to it

I think the idea that a wife should obey her husband is offensive period. Do you understand what

I mean? It's just an offensive idea because like we're used to thinking of submission as something that's totally not obedience at all and so I think the real like offense is being taken because We don't actually like the idea of obedience right period right if that makes sense, yeah,

I remember You know back years ago. I I had a job where I worked with the guy who was

I guess I think he was National Guard Reserve Something like that where he only had to go a few weeks out of the year for different training events

Whatever they call him and and the rest of the year he was basically just a normal US citizen

Who could work a normal job and I remember one time we had a conversation of he was a

Christian and we had a conversation about you know, the relationships with our wives and and How they worked and you know

Like when it came down to application, how did we make decisions? As different family units and it's funny because I told him that the way that my wife and I Do things is essentially

You know, I'm the one who's making who's making the final decisions on Not necessarily every single thing sometimes

I delegate but on on most things I'm the one making the final decision and there is no hey, let's compromise or or we're not going to Agree or do anything?

It's just I'm gonna make this final decision and and I might hear what you have to say But then it's ultimately up to me and now keep in mind

I'm telling this to a guy who's from the military who who understands this kind of relationship

Very well, right. I mean your his whole job is centered around Authority structure obeying your commanding officer, right?

Right, but but then when I told him this about my wife and I he just looked At me like I was

I was a total idiot, you know, and now he was not, you know We were we're friends and so he was totally nice and respectful

But you know, he pushed back against what I was saying and was essentially like well, hey I don't I don't do that with my wife

I like to you know, try and treat my wife as an equal and and I was basically just one, you know

Wondering well, hey, why doesn't you know? why doesn't the military do it that way then if it's so wrong and and You know seemingly like an evil thing to do to Run your family that way.

Why does the military do it? Are they evil and there wasn't really a good response to that?

But I just found it so interesting that this guy who is very, you know familiar who understood authority

Yeah, and and loved it. Honestly, I mean, I mean he loved that it was so That it was so Succinct you can make decisions very quickly

You know and efficient you had to show respect to authority and and he really liked showing respect to authority when it came to the

Military, but then when it came to his own family unit, it was just a totally foreign concept

Well, we live in the matriarchy right now. We live in a matriarchal society So the rules are changed, but I mean like this word obey, you know

Just look it up it look it up the word obey means to comply with or follow the commands

Restrictions wishes or instructions of and so I mean that's like what I'm trying to say

And and I mean is that's true of any authority relationship to comply with or follow the commands

Restrictions wishes or instructions of like a wife has to obey her husband to comply with or follow the commands

Just like a child would have to obey a parent just like you know

A cadet would have to obey their commanding officer To comply with it follow the commands restrict like the

I mean the thing is obedience is obedience. It's obedience, right? It's just it is what it is Like that's what the concept means this is the word means and so the question is is that an appropriate word?

To use for a husband -wife relationship is like the question is not like Like, you know is that comparison, you know between a husband a wife and a parent and child

Like exact in every way the question is is the word obedience the same in any authority relationship?

and I think the problem is we live in a Christian culture right now that that has defined submission in such a

Empty way that it doesn't like that It feels like a wife should be doing something very different than obedience

And that's the that's the problem like the words offensive is the word right but the concept is it's like isn't this true of any

Authority relationship yes or no Mm -hmm And so then is a husband and wife and authority relationship and there are other features of authority relationships that are parallel in Across the all the different relationships, right?

Right, if that makes sense, right? So so like just think about it this way Harrison so like ask the question this way like should a

Should a cadet obey a commanding officer like a citizen should obey a kink

Yes But it doesn't feel near as offensive does it no Why I mean,

I think it's just Culturally acceptable, you know, right? Yeah So but in those two comparisons like are they the same relationship like a citizen to a king as a cadet?

No, there's differences, but what's the same is the obedience part, right?

Yeah Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, so you should be able to do that with any type of authority relationship out there and Make the comparisons without all the offense if you actually understand there's something parallel in each one.

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm Okay. All right go for it. Um so Okay, maybe to the surprise of some of The people listening the answer is actually yes wives should obey their husbands like a child would obey

Like a child would obey their parent So I know you kind of addressed this a little bit and the opening question

Well, you know why the impulse behind the wording of this title question, but could you just explain a little more?

Why exactly it is that? Wives should be obeying their husbands

Yeah, I mean I think There's a variety of reasons. I mean the Bible teaches it in various ways.

So There's biblical Passages like direct biblical passages.

One of them would be first Peter 3 which basically uses that sort of language So there's that do you want are you asking for biblical evidence or are you asking for like God's Purpose behind the biblical evidence does that make sense?

No, I Wanted I want to talk about both but for right now. I'm just asking you why should wives

Obey their husbands from a biblical Perspective like are there specific commands?

Are we just kind of making inferences? Yeah, the biblical evidence then for that.

Yeah well I think first Peter 3 is a good a great place to go that just talks about this very thing.

So first Peter 3 says likewise Wives first Peter 3 1 likewise wives would be subject to your own husbands.

So even if some do not obey the word They notice how husbands obey too, right?

Mm -hmm. Okay, but that doesn't you know No one seems to get are you saying husbands are actually wives?

Obviously Wait, isn't it funny though? I mean like everyone obeys

God and everyone obeys his word and then none of us get all indignant about it but so obedience,

I mean like obedience is a good thing like The idea of obedience is a good thing and any kind of authority relationship in the

Bible is going to entail impedance Like that's just the way it works, you know, but wives be subject to your own husband

So even if some do not obey the word they may be one without a word by the conduct of your wife now

Notice how like how it starts with this likewise wives be subject this be subject language

To be subject is to be an individual who's placed under the authority or control of someone

It's the language of kingship if that makes sense so when you think about what's happening there you have

We're we're we're used to talking about The the idea of submission but in first Peter you have a

Greek word, that's basically a hoop hoop a testament away Yes, yes, we're all very familiar with that word you should be yes, yes

Who potassium and I now that's a word basically in this context So that basically is being translated as be subject meaning.

I mean, it's like a is king language is king language is Like a subject is a individual who is, you know placed under the authority of an authority figure, right?

And so are you tell it so are you telling me that when I see the people on Twitter, you know, use it using slang saying

Hey guys, you need to find yourself a woman who treats you like a king They're actually they're actually recommending a biblical idea to their to their friends without realizing it

They this this may be one of those that this they said not of their own

Doing you know, but they? Yeah, yeah little did they know that that they spoke better than they knew there but Yeah.

No, I mean so like you have king language there you have king like You have king language there.

So Even some do not obey the word They may be one without a word by the conduct of your wife

Now if you go down to verse 5 it says basically the argument there is, you know Don't just be fixated on your external appearance, but then you know cultivate, you know, godly traits that are going to be examples of true beauty essentially and then verse 5 says

This is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves like by adorning himself a good character

But notice how notice what it says. It says by this is how they adorn themselves by The same word who potassium and I they they're being subject to their husbands are submitting to their own husbands, right?

Then notice what says this is as Sarah. So what does it mean to submit to their own husbands? What does it mean to don't adorn themselves with godly characteristics?

It as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord and you are her children if you do good and do not fear anything

Frightening so the example of godliness in the Old Testament that Women, you know under the

New Covenant should be aspiring towards is the example of Sarah Who basically Abra obeyed Abraham calling him

Lord basically recognizing that he's a king over her as far as that sense and and obeying him so it's

I mean, I think that right there in the verse there is a Biblical instruction that basically says we should be like Sarah who obeyed

Abraham and like what does it mean? Just you know be subject to your husband. It means to To obey him and and that's what it says.

Mm -hmm. So so I mean, I think you have a command there. That's like That I could very direct like example of the

Old Testament that women are told to follow Do not let your adorning be merely external but you know the hidden perishable

Hidden imperishable beauty just in the way to get that is to do follow Sarah's example of obedience.

It's right there But I mean just you know, you know thinking about what else the Bible says I mean, you know any relationship in the

Bible that is an authority relationship always has this Obedience element to it. That's how authority relationships work.

Mm -hmm So I mean in any relation any authority relationship if there's any authority so God's in authority over us

What do we do? We obey him right God's words authority over us. What do we do? We obey it, right? you remember the

What is that guy's name? Yeah, see I'm gonna look it up The guy who basically asked

Jesus this is The guy who asked Jesus to heal a servant from a distance basically He says

I also am a man under authority essentially is what he's saying the Roman centurion. Yeah. Yeah the centurion

Yeah, he says I also he basically says I understand authority. I'm a man also under authority give or take right, right

And he says and then he says, you know I tell one man to go do this and he does it right and I tell another man to come and he comes right

So he says I'm a man who understands authority. I tell people to do things and they obey my instruction essentially, right?

So you don't even have to go see my servant You can just tell the sickness to leave essentially and it will leave because you have authority over it, right?

Right. That's his point. And so like and Jesus says, you know I haven't seen just great faith in Israel and all that right because he is the guy understood authority

But that's how authority relationships work. And so that's so you have a direct passage like this, but that's just that's the way authority

We're relationships work every time, you know, so it's just it is what it is. It's just how authority relationship work

Okay, so my follow -up question now is what you thought I was asking at first or I was wondering if I was asking

Why why does God so we know that God does command women to obey their husbands?

Just you know, or if they don't they should start What why exactly?

Does God give this command? I mean couldn't it just have easily have been that God said, you know

Hey women, actually your husbands need to obey you Why exactly is it set up this way where wives are meant to obey their husbands?

You know Harrison. That's a that's a pretty interesting question and it's the kind of question that It really does divide the complementarian camps into different positions

As far as that goes and so it's it's there have been over the past few years What many have described as the complementarian debates essentially?

and like Complementarianism as a position is basically just the idea that God made husbands and wives to be complements to each other

And in some sense it's kind of like a marketing scheme that You know, it used to be that we talked about the patriarchy and all that, right?

So feminism came along and now everyone wants to smash the patriarchy and you know The patriarchy has gotten a bad rap and you know, that's just all about, you know, wife spanking abusers and all that.

Yeah, clearly Yeah, so, you know the guys at cbmw, you know, they um, they wanted to rebrand and call themselves complementarians it's kind of like a move kind of like the pro -life movement where you want to be state your position, um in More of a neutral non -offensive kind of way, right?

And so what happened was you had a lot you had a lot of people who basically understood that male and female are

Complements to each other and then they have different roles and you know submission and that kind of vernacular was uh, fine but then the problem was there's been like many people who've adopted that label of complementarian even someone like beth moore would

She is she really? Is egalitarian as you get you know

Like preaching on sunday, I could want to fall under that broad rubric of I didn't know that I didn't know that Yeah, well, you have all sorts of people who basically, you know, basically complementarians took over You know all the major conferences and everything else.

That was the standard state of affairs. So everyone wants to say they're complementarian Uh, you know unless you're just like out and you know crazy world or whatever

But uh in like reform circles, you know complementarianism was a thing but then the like problem was

I think maybe it was piper who came along at some point and He was basically trying to answer the question, um essentially like should

You know should women be you know Bosses of men or you know rulers of men in terms of the political sphere or something like that, right?

And so his his answer and I can't remember specifically how he worded it But his exam his answer was essentially no and this outraged a lot of people.

I mean, I remember when I was at southern Sarah palin was running for vice president and and it was the oddest thing in the world to see

You know the southern seminary making an announcement on you know, do you or do you believe that that wife should submit to their husbands?

Yes, are you okay with sarah palin being a vice president of her country? Yes, you know and so what what happened was there is this these debates and this divide that started to happen over like individuals who thought like basically this idea of um

Wives submitting to or obeying their husbands. No one would say obey because that you know, that sounds too, you know

It's too mean Too mean, yeah insulting and all that but the idea of some yeah submission basically

You had two camps that were formed and you had one camp which called himself kind of soft Complementarians and then one who were more, you know,

I guess hard or strict complementarians But the soft complementarians basically treated the idea of submission as something that was purely irrational

Meaning that there is functionally no reason why god would command uh men and women

Women to submit to men other than it just had to pick one like he's just making an arbitrary decision

Yeah, it's a purely arbitrary Choice and so the self complementarians went that way with it.

It's essentially it's just a purely arbitrary choice, but then someone like john piper was saying well, no,

I think that there are Ontological creational reasons like ontological tied to someone's like the being like your makeup your constitution

There are there are reasons why god Made like god made men to lead and he made women to follow right?

and so like so then when he says like wives follow your husbands and then he made uh,

You know, I did not permit a woman to teach or have authority over men and church Like that's tied to their ontology like who they are

Their creational makeup as far as that goes there So it wasn't just some subjective choice god uniquely designed men to be leaders and he designed women to be followers and that shows up in the way that they're made so that You know

It wasn't just like a command for the church and a command for the home and then you get to the government Sphere and it's like what do you do with you know, or like employment in the secular workplace, you know?

It's like well, you know, I just you know, women are good leaders too, you know kind of thing it's like well, no like god like so the two two positions essentially, um divided in that kind of way and um and you know,

I I When I listened to the southern seminary, uh group, you know

Enthusiastically supporting sarah palin. I just thought to myself. This is absurd I mean the bible says that a nation's under judgment when women and children rule over it.

So Like so like what are we doing? This is a shameful state of affairs.

This is uh, embarrassing this is humiliating You know, like why would that I I want my emotions tied to what the bible says

But then functionally, uh, the the the answer to your question is why could god have done either way, right?

Yeah Yeah, I would say no I don't think I think the bible teaches that god made men uniquely to lead and he made women uniquely to follow

And there's a variety of passages which speak to this various. Uh, this this very thing. I mean,

I think you know just to say something horribly more offensive than um

What i've already said, you know, just let's just uh, take this episode and turn it into a yeah

Turn it into a dumpster fire of offense here Uh, but I mean look my like there are times in the month where my wife goes crazy, you know, so Every man knows exactly what i'm talking about.

I mean, you know, she she's obviously much more sanctified Than she was at the beginning of her marriage related to that But I mean there are you know, there are times of the month where like obviously women, you know are not exactly sane

You know, they're hypersensitive. They're hyper emotional. I mean, but can you imagine like a uh, uh, leader

Like a world leader with nuclear codes or whatever Who has like a rough time of the month?

Push the nuclear codes because the other country was you know, horribly offensive to them and you know

Refuses to listen to what they have to say and you know, like I mean, it's just like god didn't make women to lead

I'm, sorry, like you didn't I mean like creation itself bear witness to that very fact and You know, like I don't have any times of the month

I I don't where i'm tempted towards insanity I don't you know Like I don't and I counseled enough women to know that this is this is a feature.

It's not a glitch, you know And now that doesn't mean that a woman has no. Um, uh, uh, no

Responsibility to control her emotions, you know during um that you know cycle of the moon and all that and That she's just allowed to emote and everything else and you know,

I think that husbands who just like let their wives do that they get like um

They get what they subsidize essentially and it gets worse But I think mature and got all the mature and godly women my wife included that I know

You know, they know that there are temptations that way and they don't pretend like they're there's not there And and and you have conversations like if you're a mature couple who's not just you know, playing the feminist game you have

Conversations to say hey, where are we at? You know, like what's going on? Like you're acting weird You seem like you're crying for no reason a lot

What's going on? You know, it's like how dare you, you know ask if that's my you know, it's like I need to know

I need to know what i'm looking at here, right? in order to uh

Make sense of what's going on. And so yes, I mean, I think it's it's it's just it's just obvious. Um, For just you know biological reasons that god has made men

To lead women often are much more sensitive than men and there's often there's always there's often there's these situations there's a lot of situations that um

That god's put men in where men, um Have to make decisions that are hard, you know

So because we live in a matriarchal society right now that explains a lot of the reaction to covet I mean like you look around the world.

We've turned into a bunch of uh You know helicopter moms and it's just insane.

It's just like, you know, like we've turned into the kind of society that we can't um bear to risk even like, you know, a point oh one percent chance of death, right

Right, right. I mean, I mean that's insane that that's not masculine. That's not manly. That's not like sane

Like right and so like but that's what happens when you you're in a matriarchal society Is that if you prioritize health and safety above all else as the number one chief?

Priority this is what happens like we you live in a society where everyone's locked in the room and we you know, we used to have a funny movie bubble boy we're

You know the helicopter parenting, you know on crack but but we're doing that, you know Like we we literally have gone there fully because of a matriarchal influence in our society

And so you have to like being a man is to is to be able to mitigate risk to be able to have to make tough decisions

You know to have to like make decisions devoid of emotion at times and like that that are based on the cold hard facts

I mean, how do you send a bunch of soldiers in to battle if you can't do that kind of thing, right? And know what you're doing, you know, um, and so I mean,

I like there's just um I mean, I just look at my own life and my own marriage and you know

Like there is burdens that i've had to bear as a husband and a provider with you know Scary situations that we've been in and you know, god's designed men to face those right, right face those and to bear those burdens and and and you know,

I i've never seen a couple where are those very Very few and far between where um, well,

I would say never seen a couple but they bound balance the probability Then god's designed men to bear, you know that kind of thing a lot better than he's designed women and you know

I think by and large women are often more prone to deception than men as it as it relates to Just doctrinal heresies and everything else and so there's just any number of creational reasons why god would do this

It's not just some arbitrary choice It's made to our design, you know, god designed men to be leaders and women to be followers

And when we reject that we get chaos or we get you know, um Covid soccer moms who refuse to let him

Helicopter parents who refuse to let anyone out of their house, you know Yeah, you you talking about that. It made it made me remember.

Um, I don't I don't you probably remember this too Uh, I think I guess it was last year at some point there were these two commercials that came out one was an uh american military commercial and then the other one was like a russian camilla a military commercial and And they were put side by side and in the russian one, you know, you have like this really

Heavy music playing and then you see all these images of this dude with his head, you know with his head basically shaved

He's really muscular and he's he's doing all of this intense training. And I mean the guy looks like he was bred in a lab, you know, and he was

Made androgo. Yeah made made for killing people, right? And then you flip over to the

American military commercial and it's like this animated cartoon almost like a disney

Cartoon where it's this girl talking about how? her parents, you know

Conquered, uh, basically the patriarchy by you know Being two lesbian women who were who joined the military or something and you just have this weird contrast of the one

That looks, you know scary like I mean, I don't want to go. I don't want to be in a room by myself with this dude and only one of us is allowed to leave and then the other one is like a wait, is this even a

Military commercial this doesn't seem like anything the you would be talking about if you're

Meant to be someone who defends your nation from aggressors

Right, and and I think that's kind of the idea that that you're presenting here is as hey, we're we're kind of reaping um some of the consequences of enabling um, really more of a

Matriarchal society. Well, yeah, like that related to the you know more as a deceived kind of idea.

I mean like there's just um Like there's a naive kind of feminine perspective that um, you have a lot of female politicians

And they just don't understand that there's evil in the world you know, it's just like think about all the riots and all the looting and all the shootings of police shootings and everything else and it's just like there's um, like What what a lot of these lady, uh politicians that they don't realize is that You know, if you have someone who is taking your gun and trying trying to bash you in the head

Head with it, you know and is high and everything else It's just like well, why don't you just have a conversation with them and you know

Just try to talk them down and use You know de -escalation techniques and everything else just like this is coming from the kind of person who has never been in a fight before right right and never seen like the terrifying strength of someone who's like Like a terrifying man strength, right?

like before and it's just a naive view of the world the way the world works and it's like I mean being a man like growing up as a man like You know that there is a kind of uh, you know stupidity, uh

There that like, you know, like there are there are evil people out there who are very very strong You know, and if you've never been in that kind of relation that kind of situation where you're in fear for your life

Like it's it's not just an easy thing to subdue. Uh, you know a 250 pound guy full of muscle, right?

Yeah Hey you stop it, you know, you know, and I saw this one video of like some european cop lady cops

Who were there's three european lady cops who were basically, you know, they with their little um batons or whatever they don't even have guns and they're trying to get this guy to you know comply with them and get in the car and Like and and you know, they're just like get in the car get in the car, you know get in the car, you know

No, no No, no, and then he pushes him away, you know And then they come back and try to you know, ease him into the car and he pushes him away, you know

Then finally like some guy from the apartment who comes down there and grabs a guy You know, but it's that kind of thing where it's just like you're telling me they're nice words didn't

To get in the car Okay, so you know,

I think we've I think We've talked a good bit about you know

Um, should women be obeying their husbands? Why should they be obeying their husbands?

I want to ask you um kind of some more questions focused on the application

Of this idea. So I want to start with with just asking you kind of a broad What exactly?

um Does this obeying look like when we're talking about a wife obeying their husband?

What exactly does god have in mind when he's giving that kind of command what does it look like?

Yeah, so I think the idea of obedience is is to comply with or follow commands restrictions wishes or instructions now, um part of the problem is that like with the idea of obedience part of what i've already said is that we typically think of submission essentially as Something that functionally should never happen

If that makes sense So like if a husband is leading his wife Well, she'll always agree with everything he says and so then we have like this servant leader kind of idea of like you're you know

Basically taking a word that's the opposite of leader and making it the definition of leadership

But but basically what one of the things that you have is this is this is a problem where you have a bunch of nice guys who are basically trying to Like this is where the church is producing a bunch of nice guys who are basically

You know coming. Um You know with every decision there is to make they're trying to love their wife

Well, and what one of the things that they do is essentially they just come up their wife and they say hey, honey What do you think we should do?

You know? And that's what they call leadership, you know And that's what we typically and that's what a lot of young guys are doing

They're like, yeah, you know, I I want to be a good husband, you know, I yeah I'm a leader in some sense or whatever But the way i'm gonna lead is by serving and trying to figure out what my wife wants

And so what the way they approach every situation is essentially to ask her what she wants to do So it's like hey, honey, where do you want to eat today?

Right? Honey, what do you think we should do about uh, you know? I have a couple jobs and what do you think we should do?

Like do you think I should do this one or I think I should do that one or whatever else, you know, or even if it's related to you know, um

You know preferences. Hey, what show would you like to watch honey, right? Like like we

Like what do you feel like doing, you know? And so like the way that the husband leads in that kind of scenario is that they're always asking a wife

What to make every decision essentially, right? And so then like, you know, what happens then is you basically train the wife to essentially be like accustomed and used to Always getting to be the deciding voice and everything

And then it's just like, you know when it comes to a situation where you really have a difference of opinion Like then, you know, you communicate that and then she doesn't handle it

Well, then then what you're told by the evangelical leaders today is that you must be leading poorly, right?

Yeah So it must be that you're doing something wrong because you know If you loved your wife like christ loved the church, what wouldn't want to follow that?

So it's like well, what am I doing wrong? She doesn't want to follow me. It's like what? Well, it's like well, are you a leader or not, you know, and so like they must not know how it how it

Ended up for jesus, you know Right, right, right It's like, you know, if that's just the necessary and tell them whatever everything what woman wouldn't want to follow jesus

Well, the problem with that is they killed jesus, right? So we all killed him, right? So he loved us like jesus loved us and we killed him.

We put him to death, you know So like it's not necessarily true that you know, uh, if you love your wife like jesus, she'll want to follow you

But here's the thing. So I think what what obedience actually looks like is to comply with commands But then in your standard relationship, you know, your husband isn't giving any commands

He isn't giving any direction. He isn't giving any instruction at all And the moment he does like the moment he does right

Inevitably what's going to happen is like how dare you sir, you know Who do you think you are?

Asking me to clean up the house while you're at work You know and normally it's like the thing is it's worded in the nicest possible way right

Hey, honey, uh, you know, you think you could maybe um Pick up a little bit Who do you think you are, you know, how dare you treat me like a child, you know, like in that Like how dare you treat me like a child and you know

Don't you know that I have all this stuff to do and it's like well then you know Well, what do you what are you gonna do honey, you know? Oh, you know, you don't know what my day is like And everything else but like so the point though is just to say like what does obedience look like?

What does god have in mind? I do think god has in mind a husband who's much more Active than your standard servant leader type who has some sort of direction who has some sort of You know commands to give constructions to give

Uh, whatever, you know, and they don't have to be like worded in some sort of caveman way like, you know woman go

You know make me a sandwich or something like that, right? Right That's what people think, you know when you think you know, you know, are you giving your wife commands are you giving her instruction?

Are you giving her things to do everyone goes there with it? But I mean like You should be like hey, honey.

Here's what I want. Um, You know, i'm going to work today like a perfectly natural thing would be all right, you know, make sure that you um,

You know mail the packages, you know Uh, make sure that you uh, you know, make sure you you know

We've let the dishes go a little bit. Let's get the dishes clean today, you know You know one of the things that we need to do is like we're going to have company coming coming over and so you know make sure you're doing this or that or whatever else and and uh

All that and so I mean, I just think that uh, you know, hey, you know and make sure you read your bible today I think that there should be like tangible instructions

That are given like like we have a bible reading plan that we're going to follow we have this or that Like here's what we're going to do, you know, make sure you you know have the kids, uh

Do their bible reading today? Uh, like first thing when they wake up, you know There's any number of things that you're going to give that's going to like be tangible directions

And these are commands that you're going to give and like You know You'll know the state of your marriage if submission or obedience is actually there is if you dare to give any kind of instruction or direction

And you see what happens, you know So are you kind of so are you saying? Basically if husbands want

If husbands want to lead their wives Uh, like christ -led then the natural reaction is

Your wife should want to kill you Unless she has the spirit of god inside of her, right, right

Didn't want to kill jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah unless but the thing is like yeah, I mean like that's the thing it's it's um

There are any number of scenarios you can find yourself in so if you're married to an unbeliever then like if you

Try to be a biblical leader. She will want to kill you and probably divorce you And that really isn't your fault and you can't let her win, you know as far as that goes

You have you have to keep on going, you know but then you know, if you're um, you know, if you're in a scenario,

I Like the reality is god's designed the world in such a way that he commands man to Lead and then he gets he equips him to lead and he commands a woman to follow and he equips her to follow

But then because of the fall there's a fundamental conflict that's introduced into the sexes where the men want to be passive, right?

They want to let their wives drive them around. They want to let their wives tell them what to do You know They want to keep the woman happy because she has all the cards and you know

Most of it's about they want to have sex and she's the one who holds the keys to that Right, and so they want to keep her happy and you know so that maybe they can have some hope of you know uh

Doing what they thought marriage was going to be about you know kind of thing Yeah but but mostly what you have is you have a bunch of passive men and then and but then like the the whole thing is that god has made like um

Has cursed, you know the relationships in such a way that a woman's desire will be to master her husband

Fundamentally, that's what her sinful heart will tell her but then the problem is that if he lets her master him She'll despise him and she'll hate him

And so that's that's the problem is that most guys think that the way to keep a happy wife is just to give her whatever You want but then when you do that, she'll never want to have sex with you again.

It's the problem It's because she you're emasculated in her eyes Well Yes, if you want to use the manosphere language

Oh man I mean, but essentially like that's like a woman's looking for a man to like lead them and that's why you know

Like they always go with the you know, like the nice guys finish last kind of thing, you know the nice guys finish last and they always go with the guys who are trashy and You know treat her treat him poorly because what they see in those guys is at least this guy isn't afraid of them

And he's a leader right now. He may be a total self -centered leader, right? But all you are, you know, nice guy is just a follower, you know

Who's not going to provide her any tangible direction whatever and that's why she doesn't look at you as if you're You know desirable to her.

Yeah. Yeah, and that actually Um part of your answer was essentially saying, um,

I think if if I remember correctly, um basically Basically saying hey look

We all obviously Inherently reject god and everything that he's commanded we rebel against him and and part of what that looks like for women is um instead of instead of submitting to their husbands their natural inclination is to want to Rule over their husbands and in so doing they're rejecting something that god has commanded and that means that they're

Rebelling against him and have you know incurred? um Condemnation but no one's happy when that happens, right?

right and And so the men aren't happy and the women aren't happy. Nobody's nobody's happy It doesn't work out

Well, and and what that leads me to is a question that I actually don't have on my on my list here anywhere

But I was thinking about it earlier while you were talking and essentially that question is you know for um

Even any of the christian women who might Have the audacity to have continued listening past all of the the answers up to this point um

Is it is it wrong to say that that anyone who? Any woman who's rejecting?

this uh This command that god's given that wives should obey their husbands.

Is it wrong to say that you know christian or not? Functionally they um

They are rejecting what god has said to do if they refuse to obey their husband and that should

Give them pause when it comes to How willing they are to actually?

Obey god himself. Uh should should the read should the idea that? um, you know, they might they might not want to obey their husbands should that make them worried about Their relationship with god like hey, if i'm not even willing to obey my husband

Why in the world? Would I think that i'm willing to obey god who's given the command to obey my husband?

Does that make sense what i'm asking? Yeah, no Yeah I mean that's essentially what romans 13 says it says let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there's no

Authority except from god and those that exist have been instituted by god. Therefore. Whoever resists the

Resists the authorities resists what god has appointed And those who will resist will incur judgment, but I would say that in in a lot of marriages a lot of christian marriages, um, there's

There's a problem that like a woman absolute like in most that she does not want to uh submit and obey

She doesn't want to obey or submit and the meaning actual meaning of the word submit But then the problem is like and you know, you talk to a lot of ladies as it relates to this subject

The the the follow -up they say is submit to what? um Essentially So it's just like he's not what is he doing?

What does he ask me to do? You know, he comes home every day and you know watches tv or plays games or whatever else

Like what does he ask me to do? He's not asking me to do anything. There's nothing to submit to there's functioning No leadership here, right?

And I mean, there's a kind of woman who might be saying that who wants like, um has like, you know um

Expectations that are maybe a bit unrealistic that you know the husband will come home and you know, the only way he can be a faithful husband is to Preach her and and in our sermon saying all the things that she wants him to say in the order that she wants him to order

But I mean I think in the vast majority of situations kind of what's really happening is you have a bunch of passive men who

You know are really functionally not exercising much leadership in any way Possible and then the only extras the only kind of you know leadership there

Even remotely trying to is hey, you know, the bible tells us to have sex, you know kind of thing. So it's a woman

You know, it's just like well, I think that's all you care about dude, you know, so So like there's no guys.

You're not off the hook Yeah, no I mean, I mean, you know if all you're doing is the servant leader thing where you know

You're basically just asking her opinion about you know, what she wants to do in every single scenario you know, you you're what are you doing to actually lead her and like so Maybe you need to get started and I would say though like once once Here's the thing once things go that way right and you develop a pattern over a you know, uh

Substantial length of time of just doing that kind of thing just if mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy was figuring out what she wants because You know,

I don't want to deal with the craziness that comes from not giving her what she wants kind of thing You know, then what happens though?

Is it it like it it is a substantial adjustment that will occur the moment you start actually taking initiative and You know providing tangible direction in your home.

It's like well, who are you? Where have you been all the time? It's like well, forgive me. I've been a terrible husband. So let's start now, right?

Yeah, and then it's going to get worse before it gets better for sure, you know, right? It'll get worse before and you're going to have to face it, you know

So this is a mess you created in part, you know I'm not saying that all of that I'm not saying that there's not scenario like I think that there's a lie to say that there's some sort of scenario that like anytime

You know a lady is resistant to her husband's leadership. It's all You know failures on his part

That's not true. But at the same time And like it it's a mix of both, you know, yeah, and they should

Yep, and they and they should Husband should probably expect a period of time when you're trying to Uh, correct these issues where maybe your wife does want to crucify you

Yeah, sure. I mean, but I think a woman who really wants to submit to her husband like, you know, if that's the scenario

So there's different scenarios if that kind of woman who really wants to submit to her husband Now i've talked to women like that, you know, and they say yeah, but he's not leading me in any way, you know

There's nothing to submit to it's just like well Honey, this isn't all that hard to think about right? Like what to do like I I want to believe you that that's just you know, you would love to submit to him, you know

Um, but then like just start asking him like if you're in that scenario just start asking him, you know, hey um

You know husband What do you think we should do about this scenario? You know, what do you think we should do about this scenario because I want to follow you, you know

And i'm not i'm not saying it's all up to her to fix the relationship. I'm not saying that i'm just saying That like if you're in that scenario like, um, you can make it real hard for a guy to lead or you can make it easy, you know,

And uh, and you know like and then on the other end it's like she won't listen to anything i'm saying Well, it's like well, you know

Why don't you you why don't you pray for her? And why don't you start, you know asking her to do things like just keep at it, you know

Yeah, ask her to do things that you know, she should have no. Um Problem doing it pick battles that are not just obviously self -motivated, you know

Like make pick the right battles, you know, and just stick stick to your guns, you know Hey, we're gonna go to church every week

I'm gonna expect you to church every week, you know come hell or high water. We're gonna go to church every week You know, we're not sleeping in anymore.

We're gonna go to church every week So, you know start start there at the spiritual things and see what happens, you know Yeah, like um, and and then you know, if it's like, hey, you're just being selfish

Like how in the world is that selfish? There's nothing selfish about that, you know, so, you know if that makes sense, but anyways um, so So should women, you know in keeping with this topic of what what exactly does uh, you know a wife obeying her husband look like you know, um okay, so I uh drive a school bus as one of the jobs that I do and so You know, obviously

I work with children um for a few hours out of most days and one of the things i've noticed is uh, very few of them really want to do what

I say they would rather do Whatever they want to do and when I when

I tell them to do something they typically get frustrated and you know, normally if they don't do what

I ask them to do and um if they do If they do actually obey, you know what i've told them to do whether it's you know, sit down or stop, you know

Stop yelling or whatever it is They typically do it with kind of a begrudging attitude, right?

They're they're they're gonna do it, but they're not happy about it um so With this kind of topic, you know, we're we're talking about really the same idea like The uh wives should be obeying their husbands, you know, like My students should be obeying me when it when it comes to riding on the bus, right?

And um, so the question ultimately is uh in obeying their husbands

Should the wives? um You know actually like in their hearts be happy to obey their husbands or or is it fine to just Basically say hey, you know what?

I don't like the way it is, but it is the way it is So i've just got to do it. Um, is it better?

for the wife to say hey, no, I actually am i'm glad and joyful to uh

To receive commands from my husband and then obey them to the best of my ability

One of the things that's funny here, okay, so If you think about hebrews 13 7 17

It says obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who have to give an account

And it says let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that would be of no advantage to you, right?

Like the idea of let them do this with joy and not with uh, groaning, uh, essentially don't make it hard, you know

Don't don't do it with a bad attitude make it be a source of joy make it instead of groaning But notice how you know every every authority relationship.

What is the same words that come up? Obey your leaders submit to them, right? Yeah That's the same word in every case.

Yeah, and so, um, but You know, I think there's two. Um There's there's there's two components to obedience one component is to do like the external behavior

And then there's a second component which is to have a heart that uh longs to obey essentially so I I think um

I don't know If it was um, I think it's piper who's always talking about the motive mattering the motive matter like, you know

Desiring god and all that, right? Yeah I can't remember who gave this scenario, but someone gave a scenario of like a child basically

Like a parent telling a child, you know sit down on the chair and uh, you know Be quiet or whatever right and then child like is sitting down on the uh

On the Just sit down on the chair, you know And the child's sitting on the chair and looks up at the adult and says i'm sitting down On the outside, but i'm standing up on the inside, you know

In other words, you know i'm only doing this because you're commanding me to but I really hate that you

Or you have the audacity or dare to tell me to do this I mean that that kind of thing is not the kind of thing that honors god

But at the at the end of the day, I mean there's there's there's two components, right? So, uh, there's there's the external and the internal and it'd be far better for you to you know

Hold, you know, hold your nose grit your teeth and do the right thing Then it would be just to say like to throw your hands up in the air and say, you know

You know what? You're like if i'm not going to be able to do this with a good attitude then forget it, right? so Like why not?

I mean, so so the point there is just to say that I think sometimes in life you have to obey with a bad attitude

Long enough to where you can get to where you obey with a good attitude. That's the way it works, right? uh, so there's no virtue in obeying with a good

I mean there's no like, you know, it's not as if like this is uh, Like it's great to obey with a bad attitude

But you know, what do you do you say lord forgive me my horrible attitude help me obey with a good attitude

I'm gonna do what my husband says, you know Um, I don't like it, but you know Instead of just focusing on how much

I hate this and how much I despise this and how much I just detest this I need to be reminded that you know

You're going to hold my husband accountable for the decisions that he makes and not me And so I pray for him that you are merciful to him and compassion and I think the more that you know,

Wives could actually pray for their husbands in those moments instead of going frustrated and have you know and realize that like lord

Like you're going to hold them to a stricter judgment than me and i'm scared for him and I pray that you would you know be merciful to him and And um, you know forgive him for he knows not what he does, you know kind of thing

Yeah, the more that you do that the more that you soften your heart and it's not just this like i'm not getting my way

I'm gonna scream on the inside kind of thing and just be frustrated. It's like just Get your eyes off yourself and think about what's actually happening here

But yeah, I think there's there's obviously two components there there's the external and the internal and for the obedience to be complete it needs to be both but you know,

I there's no kind of scenario where it's just like you know people think people think well, you know if I If I don't want to do it and I do it anyways, then that's being a hypocrite, right?

Because it's inauthentic and i'm not living my truth and all that and it's like no that's that's what you call being Like that's what you call integrity right

Integrity is doing the right thing even when you don't want to that's integrity, right? But then like god can cleanse your heart to such a way that you you love

What is good and you hate what is evil? Yeah, and that's what you should be praying for him to do.

Yeah Okay, well, um another kind of application question, um

You know, obviously we're talking about uh husbands are pretty much You know, they're commanded essentially to be making the decisions for the family ultimately, you know and Um in that way, they would be leading their families.

So Does that mean that you know wives should never be included in the decision -making process?

If if wives are going to obey this command from god to obey their husbands, does that mean they're essentially barred from?

Uh helping make decisions by god so husband could never go to his wife and say hey, here's the situation

I'm gonna i'm gonna make the decision. But what do you what do you think is that essentially off limits now?

No, uh, well, let me give a qualified no, okay. Okay. I want to give a qualified no, um

Um, if a husband is the leader of his home What that means is that I think in the vast majority of scenarios

Like if he's leading like so part part of what's happened is like with the whole like submission idea like you get rid of the idea of obedience you get rid of like this is a

Like a real authoritative relationship in any way and it's just like a tiebreaker and real big scenario kind of thing

What you what you don't have in that kind of arrangement is a natural day -to -day Expectation of tangible commands or leadership or direction within a home.

Does that make sense? Yeah So basically you have kind of what big moment submission, but then most of it's just laissez -faire.

Does that make sense? Yeah free for all kind of thing All right. So but in a in a healthy like biblical home, there's going to be like You know 20 commands a day

Kind of thing right? There's just a normal part of you know leadership that like would happen with any you know

So like just imagine you're at a work scenario right where the boss comes in and like here's what we're doing today guys, right?

All right, so we got a you know Uh, we needed it, you know 20 100 computers to go out today, you know

You you're assigned to this you're assigned to this you're assigned to this Uh, we need to make sure that we uh are you know

Doing all the testing we need to do and everything else like that's being a leader, right? and we understand that in the secular way like with the boss the boss comes in and he says here's what's happening and You know, let's execute the plan.

You know, you understand that in a basketball team, you know, here's the plan We're doing guys. All right, you know and like all that leadership involves a lot a lot of instructions, right

Like there's no way that all right guys. Well, what do you think we should do today? Huh? You know Let's have a little pow wow.

Well, what do you think guys? Do you think we should um do layup drills or you know do suicides? Uh, what do you think?

What do you think? You know, uh, I think we should rest today Yeah, do you want to just like, you know go out there and just free for all, you know, like what do you think?

You know, like whatever is happening there. It's not a coach, right? And it's not a leader. It's not leadership And so I think within a normal home

One of the things that should be happening is that there should be a lot of just tangible. Here's the plan

Here's what we're doing today. Here's the Here's here's the goal. Here's here's our plan for the day.

Here's what we're doing kind of stuff That I mean that should just be the natural state of affairs right to but then

I don't think that like, you know that when you're executing that standard kind of plan

Really like if you're if at every single point like, you know You you're you're the basketball coach on the team and like you're

You know your players are basically looking at you and saying well do you think this is the best idea to do layups before we do um

Yeah To do layups before we do uh sprints today or you know Do you think or you think sprints before layups is good to do and don't you think we should be skirmishing a little bit?

more and you know, I feel like we've been lacking in skirmishing lately and And you know

We don't have enough free time during our practices where we can just kind of practice the things that are unique to us And you know if every time you're kind of exercising leadership, it turns into some sort of discussion, right

At some point it's just like hey, we got to make a plan. Okay Like uh, like this is not a significant like this is not a morally significant

These are not morally significant things, right? Right, like like what order we do like, you know, do we do bible study first?

You know in the day or do we do? Like a lot of that stuff is just stuff that doesn't need to be discussed

And if you're having to discuss literally every decision you make in order to live with your wife in an understanding way

There's a sense in which it's like you have a like a leader follower problem that's on your hands.

Does that make sense? But you know like I think like if a husband a wife One of the things that they should do to mitigate like what should happen

I think is like in 99 % of the scenarios A wife should just be following but like like her impulse is just to follow and one of the questions she should be asking at that point is like is this

Is this worth? Having like it's just so significant of a problem that we have to discuss it right now

Kind of thing right and if I have to discuss it every time like am I really all that submissive, right?

All right So there's that but I think what I think the husband should be doing is like having regular times within the home where?

Like everything's on the table, right? So one of the things that my wife and I have done over the years is what's called a conference table

And it's just a time where we get together and say hey what's going on with the relationship and let's discuss things, right? and so One of the things that you you know, like a weekly thing you say, hey, what's what how are we doing?

You know what what's what needs to change and you know I think that's like those moments are the moments where you discuss

You know how the routine's going and how the plans are going and it's like hey I want to hear what you have to say.

What do you think can be improved upon? What do you think we're doing poorly? What do you think we can do wiser, you know kind of thing?

What do you have do you have any concerns? But what what doesn't need to be happening is on a day -to -day basis. It's like, you know

All right, honey, um, you know like Like you're in the middle of the parking lot and you're trying to park

Yeah And it's like honey, don't you think we should park at that closer parking spot over there, you know

It's like well, no, I don't like we're right. I'm i'm pulling into this one right here It's like but don't isn't it nicer to it's like yeah

But i'm not trying to get in a wreck and run over someone because they're in a discussion right now Like don't you love me, you know, you're not living with me and it's like no honey.

This is not the moment, you know We'll talk about parking strategies, you know later, you know, but this is not the moment uh for The but so so I think that like there should be some regular time like where you do discuss things

And particularly when you have like big decisions to make that's where it's just like, you know You may discuss them for a few weeks not all day long every day, but you have a time you're pointed where it's like Hey, this is discussion time.

Let's do it kind of thing if that makes sense but uh, so yeah, no, I think absolutely a good leader is going to I think a good leader is gonna say like I think a good leader is going to take a lot of initiative and it's going to run a play

And I think if at every point you're trying to run a play, right? It you have to discuss it.

It's like hey, we need to chill, you know, let me let me run the play we'll we'll review it later like nothing like, you know, this is just uh,

This is this is not a more most of them are not moral, you know If that makes sense kind of things are just huge things.

So is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's good um So there's obviously going to be a lot of pushback to this idea.

We've stated that ad nauseum at this point. Um, But one of the ways we can kind of mitigate against that is there's obviously there's going to be a lot of um

Assumptions made and there's going to be a lot of people who point to examples of poor leadership from a husband and and basically use those examples to try and You know nullify or or neuter?

um the things that we're saying and and push back against them trying to prove that they're actually not true what we're saying and and so why don't you just take some time to um,

Maybe dispel some of those arguments by just talking about what exactly? Uh a wife obeying their husband

Does not look like what does it not look like according to scripture? Yeah, sure.

So Yeah, that objection, you know, I think uh that objection of hey, you know well, this sounds dangerous and this sounds

You know, this could be abused like i've been um I've been teaching on the subject long enough to know that that's just kind of a standard thing that people throw out.

Um, You know women will even throw that out, you know at church like as you're teaching, you know hey, this sounds dangerous this should be abused and And everything else and and I think anytime like i'm like men will do it too, which is one of the things that's really funny

Like, I mean i've been in any number of scenarios where I just talk about authority relationships in just a straightforward way

And I talk about the rules of how authority relationships work and the more that a person talks talks about authority relationships

Some more suspicious people really get And it's just like because I just don't think they have a category for what authority relationships actually are

Uh, you know at my last church I preached a sermon once because it was next we were going through first peter and like the title of Of the sermon when we were going through first peter his wives obey your husbands, right?

and I'm sure everyone was very appreciative We had people that would stop like we put our sermon titles on the marquee and we had people drive by and like Take pictures of it laughing, you know

Like uh That that we'd have the and we had people calling and complaining and everything else.

It was really funny I almost wondered if you're gonna get like a news article written on it But uh, no,

I I think yeah, what does it not mean? What is it? Yeah, I think that there's like There's obviously a kind of person who wants to say well because this is can be can be abused like you said therefore don't do

It but that's I mean everything can be abused like the the question is not it It can be abused everything can be abused, right?

And it can be abused in every single direction So and it doesn't really like, you know If in a matriarchal society that we're living in right now that matriarchal authority is being abused, right?

Yeah It's abused so like the issue is it Whoever in charge it can be abused.

That's the point but god obviously has made uh authority relationships and and they

You know, uh our son the way we submit to those reflects something about how we relate to a god as well but yeah,

I obviously they can be abused I think that the There's um many um

I think that there have been many men in uh, when when america was more of a patriarchal situation, right?

Like I don't think that this is happening on mass right now. We're just like, uh We are dealing with the specter of the past or something along those lines but I think that there's many men in patriarchal kind of You know in the patriarchal relationships of the past who essentially thought of submission as basically, you know

Do whatever I say no matter what I say without a word, you know Almost like a woman need to be seen and not heard thing.

Don't ever challenge me. Don't ever you know rebuke me You know in those kind of contexts you often have like people who are asking, you know, is it okay for a woman to?

you know Rebuke her husband. Is that appropriate or is that not very submissive? Is it okay for a woman to?

you know Ask her husband questions about the decisions he's making I think that you know that that um

That kind of like self -centered leadership that doesn't want any input that doesn't want any suggestions

That's basically just do what I say and shut up, you know kind of thing uh is is um

Is a real problem, but I I would say it's a it's a it's a real problem But I don't know that that's really anymore what's happening on the ground

What's happening on the ground right now is the exact opposite is basically do what the woman says or she'll scream, you know, right without question

Without challenge and don't you know, it's the opposite because it's like men are absolutely afraid to rebuke women, right?

You think the pendulum is kind of swung? It's exactly end of the spectrum Right, right

Like, you know you like the the standard male today in this society is just deathly terrified to ever disagree with a woman

You know, this is insane You know like and so but all that can be true in the reverse as well and I mean

I know of some you know, um Relationships that are like that where the pick -headed male just basically just you know uses like husband wife authority basically just uh, you know deal with his wife harshly dominate his wife, you know have a you know, submissive kind of slave that does whatever he says and And basically without question and you know, basically what he's doing is enforcing his selfish will upon everyone so I I don't think a godly leader is going to be the type of guy who

Is looking at his authority, uh in such a way that is self -centered or self -serving and you know

As I tried to lead my own family That's something that um, i've constantly well i've i've said to my wife over the years.

I've just said hey look, you know, um I don't ever want to use my authority Just to get my own selfish way and if I do that,

I want you to call me on it But i'm committed i'm committed to not doing that and I think if you look at the testimony of the way

I actually lead You can see that i'm not doing that at all, you know, like that's not what's happening

Um like and because i'm i'm committed to not doing that and you know, I I don't want to ever ask you to do something

Like or use my authority to command you to do something that it's not something that god says it's just something

I want, you know Like I want to have a biblical reason i'm going to tell you the biblical reason why i'm doing that but then that means that You know, if a man's going to do that kind of thing, he actually has to actually know what the bible says, right?

Yeah Like, you know, and that's the problem is that I think a lot of men don't know the bible

So they don't even know what they should be commanding and then what comes out is just kind of a list of selfish preferences

You know, right? And so that's the problem But whatever that is it doesn't undermine the basic point, you know god's designed it to be the way it is and yeah, but I would say that you know a husband obviously can't ask his wife to send and And a husband

I would say he can't ask his wife to do things that are beyond his authority to do either

Like what so What's an example of that? well, yeah, I'll give you an absurd example just to prove a point but um

Let's say that a wife a husband were to you know, ask his wife to Sleep in a cage every night

Like with a dog collar on her neck just to show that she's under his authority, right?

Would that be a sin for her to do that? Um, no, I guess

I guess not I mean, is there anything in bible that says that that can't be her bed, you know, um,

I guess I guess not I mean, you may make an argument, you know, like the marriage bed or something like that Okay, but I mean like you understand what i'm saying like a husband can like do absurd things like that that may not

They're just like hey, you know, that's not within your authority as a leader, um

You know, I I mean even something like stupid like, uh, you know, like, you know in our house

Um, the only color that you're allowed to wear is red kind of thing or something like that That is the only color at some point

I think that kind of guy I I don't know that those kind of guys exist there are guys who are doing things not maybe to that extreme, but uh

Yeah, there there are some out there, you know, there's the world has enough people but I mean I think in a scenario like that It's like do you have a really have the authority to tell me what colors to wear?

Like i'm only allowed to wear this color Every day is the only color I I have to wear the same outfit every single day, you know, like this is

What what is this about? Is this about the bible or is this about just you're being a megalomaniac, you know? Yeah at this point and so I think um

Those are um, just some silly Examples of things that uh, um but I mean

I I think you know with related to the pandemic and and and stuff we we need to have a You know some sort of understanding of what the government is actually allowed to do to right

So is the government allowed to tell us what we have to put in our body? Is that was it designed by god to do that?

Do we just in some simplistic way say obey the governing authorities? Whatever they say they tell us we have to put these chemicals in our body that might harm us.

It's like well, okay Well, I guess we better do it because they say so even though they're not tested and whatever else I mean if the government were to step in and say hey every house has just you know

Have taco tuesday every week, you know, it's like Really? Do you have the authority to tell us what to cook on which day?

you know and I think in in a certain sense like like There's god's given a husband a sphere of authority and part of like he could just you know, go well beyond that sphere of authority like um with some of the decisions that he would make like In that he's just you know commanding irrational unreasonable things, you know, yeah like honey, you know,

I want you to You know work out four hours a day And home school, you know all the kids and uh, you know everything else because you know bodies the temple and all that You know, so four hours of working out a day

I want you to get up at two in the morning every day and work out till six and here's your schedule and At some point you're just like hey, sorry, no, you know,

I can't Like this is beyond what you're you're commanded to do here, you know, yeah um another pushback that i've seen from a lot of people who really don't agree with us is they argue that um

In order for what we're saying to be true. It has to mean that uh women are now um you know, uh less than men right they'll they'll use words like inferior or Less valuable or you know less capable or you know, however, they've worded a lot of different ways

But ultimately they end up having a problem with the idea um that That women need to submit and they say that it is somehow devaluing women.

So what's your response to? an objection like that And basically are women inferior does submission make women inferior to me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well Inferior is one of those words that has multiple meanings which is the problem so Uh to be inferior is like there's one, you know

There's a meaning of the word inferior that is essentially to be lower in rank or station or degree And in that way are women inferior to men?

Well the fact that they're in an authority relationship They're lower in rank or station Than their husbands.

So are they and does submission make them inferior? Well, yes in terms of that definition of the word

But then often like inferior communicates to people less important or valuable or worthy or something like that In which case like are women inferior in you know stipulated term b, you know sense less valuable

No, right. So everyone's equally valuable or uh in the eyes of god as far as that goes, right?

So everyone's equally human But there are authority relationships that are there and so yes like in terms of the authority relationship itself

The husband is a superior to a inferior Related to authority but not related related to value worth or whatever else and so so I think sometimes when people say that they're

They're speaking better than they know, right? Like and that's the very well, that's the very thing. That's the sticking point

It's like I refuse to obey or submit because that makes me feel Like a subordinate and it's like well you are you know

So get used to it, right? Yeah, just it's accepted. That's the way it is Just like a cadet is a subordinate to a commanding officer just like you know church members are subordinate to church leaders like in that way just like Citizens are subordinate to kings, you know all that like yes

That's the way it works. If you feel that like you feel like there's a imbalance in authority. It's because there is Yes, you know, that's the way it works.

But then Like like that doesn't that shouldn't dehumanize you like you're not less valuable intrinsically, you know in terms of worth or anything else

Like if it does like I mean, I like we're all You know subordinate to christ, aren't we?

Yes And so if that makes us feel somehow less than you know We're cutting off any hope of salvation we have for ourself and thinking that way right,

I mean like like there's um Like god's designed authority relationships for good.

They're not for evil like they're not to do us harm as far as that goes so So, yep.

Okay. Yeah. Well, I I think that's a good place for us to um, wrap up this discussion

I think there's some more questions that can be asked that we'll probably do in some Mid -week episodes, but as a you know main episode,

I feel like we've had a pretty good conversation and hopefully this is kind of a Encouraging conversation, um for a lot of people who would agree with what the bible is saying here and then you know for others who might have gone into this episode and disagreed but been patient enough to Listen to everything that uh, you and I have to say hopefully um

Hopefully they can they've kind of been convinced that hey maybe maybe the way that i've been viewing all this is has not been correct and and i've been disobedient to what god has said and and so Uh, you know, that's our hope.

Anyways, is that this is a helpful conversation um for you guys and and so um

So I think this has been good and and we want to thank all you guys for listening and um, we'll see you guys next time

This has been another episode of bible bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion

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Now go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move