What are the Expectations of a Pastor's Wife?

Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me, so heavy

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It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Boski Beers and boat rides, laughs till sunrise

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And hey guys, welcome to Your Calvinist podcast My name is Keith Boski and as always,

I am your Calvinist I want to thank you for being a part of the show today And before I bring my guests in,

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And be able to go to 1689 Cigars and support the ministry over there of those guys Who are using great cigars to further the gospel of Christ Well, I have two gentlemen with me today, two pastors, two husbands, two fathers

Who are going to, I'm going to bring in now And we're going to be talking about the subject of our wives

Which could be dangerous, but I think it's going to be a lot of fun So I'm bringing on with me now

Pastor Kofi from, he is in Medford Which is exciting because that is my first name and that's where his church is

Medford, Oregon, right? And then Adam Page, who is the pastor

One of the pastors at Amelia Baptist Church in Amelia Island, Florida Gentlemen, thank you both for being on your

Calvinist podcast with me today Thanks Keith Thanks for having me

Yes sir, and I'd like to begin with Kofi If you would, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from Your ministry, how long you've been a pastor

And just give us a little overview of who you are and what you do Sure, so Kofi Dubois and I am 33

I live in Medford, Oregon, I've lived here since 2017 Moved here from the

UK, which as well was born and raised Been married to my wife Laura since 2017 And we have two kids,

Gareth, who is going to be four in May And little Rosemary, who is just under a month old

And I'm the pastor at Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Central Point Which is the next town over from us

Awesome, now Kofi, when you say you're the pastor Are you the only pastor there or do you guys have a plurality of elders?

How does that function in your church? Currently the solo pastor, praying that that won't be the case for long

Okay, I understand the situation there for sure Alright, and Brother Adam, my good friend

You're returning to the show and I'm thankful for that Just shows that I didn't scare you off the first time

And you're here with me in Jacksonville Well, you're not in Jacksonville, you're near Jacksonville Tell us about where you're at and who you are

I'm from Jacksonville And do these names that show up in the blue bubbles Are they for everybody to see right now?

Like they can see them? Everybody's going to see it I put A -Train as a joke

Thinking that would get me into StreamYard And apparently that's how I'm going I'm going by A -Train for this podcast for the first time ever

I think that's great I'll put a different background up Now we're a little bit closer That's perfect I hope it catches

I was born and raised in Jacksonville I only lived my life in another city

For three other years And that was in Louisville, Kentucky When I was attending my Southern Seminary For my

Master's of Divinity degree But I've been at Amelia Baptist Church For ten years So right out of seminary, it was the first church we had

And we're still there I'm the preaching pastor now We have a plurality of elders That is an elder council Made up of four non -vocational

Rotating elders who are ordained by our church And then two other Vocational pastors now

To help with some of the growth Pastor Neil who's been here for 35 Years And Pastor Forrest Who just got hired

Me and my wife Amy Jo have been married For 14 years this summer

And we have four children We have a 10 -year -old Six -year -old and five -year -old

Girls, Ellie Jo, Teagan and Zoe And then we have a little monster Man who's a two -year -old

Deacon, he just turned two I think, yeah March 23rd

So yeah, we have four and it's loud and busy And fun But everyone's doing alright, we're doing okay

Well good, I do have to ask you And Kofi Because your kids are so small

I don't know if you will have experienced this yet You said you have a boy and a girl, right Kofi? A boy and a girl

Well with Adam, you have three girls And then a boy Do you notice the difference yet?

Insane, it's insane The fact that anyone's having this conversation If there is a

Difference between male or female It's they're either being ignorant Or unaware or they haven't experienced it

But My daughters There was an entirely different world as girl dad

And little man has completely Thrown a wrench in everything And I mean this in a wonderfully blessed way

We consider our children blessings But I've never had So he's our first cat scan

I've never had a kid that required a cat scan already Under the age of two He is actively trying to pulverize himself

At all costs All the time He's jumping off of things, he's climbing things I've had to put locks on so many things

And that was just never the case With my girls, ever And so it's a totally different world

Which you know, you have So many kids Keith You're like what, three? I'm working on Trying to start my own race

So many children You're growing your Church the old fashioned way

That's right We have six, my wife and I this year Married 25 years And we have two adult children

And then we have four That are Still kids My two adult children are adopted though My wife and I were together for 12 years

Before we had our first positive pregnancy test So we were married Half the time we've been married

Without having any natural children We had two adopted children Thought that was what God had for us

And we were happy with that We thought it was going to be the Foskey four And it was the Foskey four for a long time And you know my daughter very well

Because she used to come to your Bible study And that's Ashley, she's my oldest, she's 25 My son

Cody's 22 He's in the Air Force, lives in Germany And then we have Hope, Justice, Faith And Theodore And what you just said about Knowing the difference between boys and girls

Not even a joke, I mean it's absolutely The emotional range in our house

Is just amazing And anyone who says That there's really no difference

Between boys and girls Is just out of their minds And that leads me to I guess the first question

And get you guys both to a pint on this When we talk about ministry When we talk about men and women in ministry

I think all three of us would agree But I want to make sure Out of the gate, we would all agree

That there are ministry positions That are for men that are not for women Would we all affirm that?

Yeah, correct Absolutely And would you, I would say First of all, obviously the position of Elder, pastor, which

I think is Functionally the same role even though They may be vocational, non -vocational As you were saying

Adam, like in our church We have vocational, non -vocational, still the position Of elder In that position we would say women are not

To serve in that position Correct? That's right Kofi, we're good?

I heartily affirm that Okay, yeah, I assume so Again, I don't want to get halfway through The conversation and you say, but wait

Because again I've known of you for a long time But we've never spoke, so I want to make sure I don't want to put words in your mouth,

Kofi For sure, also on that With the subject of This whole men and women in ministry

And the differences And what our wives do and what our wives are expected to do Just yesterday I put out a video

And I'm not sure, this won't go out right away So this will be a few days from now But just yesterday from the recording

I posted a video of A pastor's wife meeting And one of the ones in there

Was a man, it was me playing the Methodist Saying my wife's my pastor And then today I posted the statement

There is no such thing as a pastor's husband Right, that's not a thing Because that would mean a woman would be a pastor

And I've already got the negatives I've already got the people kind of hitting hard I even had one guy who wrote

A message saying, Eve was a man Because she came out of a man Which is the weirdest thing

I've ever read People are weird and people put weird stuff on Twitter But we have to affirm

God's design Of men and women And He created them, male and female And He created them with different purposes

But the The big question That we often come at When we have this

Is okay, well where are the lines In ministry? And often our wives are

Sometimes seen As the extension of us And sometimes people even treat them

Like they're sort of pseudo -pastors And some churches they do call them co -pastors Which of course we would never affirm that But it's almost like when the church

Hires us, they're hiring Her as well And I completely

Reject that, I don't think that church Gets my wife the same way They get me, but have you guys

Experienced that in your churches Where there's, and again Not looking to call anybody out or anything

But have you ever experienced, even if not in your ministry Maybe seeing it in someone else's Where a pastor's wife is being expected

To have almost the same role Of Involvement and duty

And expectation that the pastor has Is that something that you guys Have experienced and I'll let

Whichever one of you wants to go first on that Sure, so in You know, in My experience,

I have an interesting perspective On this because I grew up in a pastor's home So my dad

Is a Pentecostal pastor Has been pretty much my entire life So I grew up In a context where In my opinion, unfortunately

My own mother was very much Expected to be An extension of My dad's ministry

Plus have her own, essentially And I saw kind of growing up There was definitely this expectation

That, and sometimes I think my dad bought into it I remember him telling us as kids

God didn't just call me to ministry He called us to ministry And so there was this expectation

That we're all going to be in ministry In some way, shape, or form And my mom's dad's wife

Of course, would be Very much expected to be that And so I've seen that growing up And As I entered into a pastoral ministry

Which is its own fun story For another time, I suppose I made a very conscious effort not to foster that Because As I'm sure we'll get into In our conversation,

I'm very much Convinced that my wife's primary ministry Is to our home I don't necessarily

Believe that that means She must be involved in the life of our church She is, and she's very happy to do so But no, definitely have seen that expectation

And I do think it can get problematic I'm sure we'll get into that As the conversation unfolds

Absolutely Alright, without a shadow of a doubt I completely understand

Where Kofi's coming from here And then culturally have seen The two -for -one sale

Pastor -pastor wife Inferred Without anyone even saying anything to you

Until you're in the room Getting the interview done Let's say you're just out of seminary

And you're looking for churches And they're interviewing you to be the new pastor of their church And they will immediately launch into Well, what can your wife provide?

What are some of your wife's strengths In this position? And the position they're referring to is not a separate Vocational position for her

I think sometimes that can naturally occur later As it has with my wife As a children's ministry director

And really not even that She's an assistant in the children's ministry department But all of that has worked itself out later

It was not something that was Negotiated at the table The Emilia Baptist Church was incredibly gracious In realizing the difference between hiring me

And hiring my wife But because of previous interviews At other churches I made that pretty clear right out in front

That this is something we had seen I've been in churches where The pastor was the senior pastor

And his wife was on the board of trustees And that led to all kinds of Issues and problems within the church

We've seen We've seen pastors' wives Completely withdraw from the church altogether

Taking this to the other End of the degree of the spectrum And saying, you hired my husband We may not even come on Sundays If we have a headache

And move that way entirely And so I think you kind of have to start with As Christians, you're all called

To a ministry And so there's going to be some of these things that happen naturally There's going to be gifts and talents

I'm sure that we'll get into in our conversation That our wives have and can contribute But yes, certainly in our culture

There's an expectancy there that shouldn't be Of hiring both of us At the price of one

And that really probably needs to be corrected Any chance we get Sure.

I know one of the things that happens With my wife She'll sometimes see

Other churches where other pastors' wives Are doing certain things And that will sometimes make her feel like She should be doing something

Like, you know, Keith, I never learned to play the piano Right? And look here All these people, all these pastors' wives

Play the piano, right? I'm not running a women's ministry And look at this woman here and she's doing this

I think what you just said, Adam Is important We're not saying That a woman can't have a ministry

But that doesn't necessarily become the Absolute expectation for the pastor's wife

And every woman is in a Different place in their life Like you said, Kofi, you have a one -month -old

Right? I mean, your wife's role Is going to be surrounding That place

We have an 18 -month -old Adam, you have a two -year -old and he's your first boy Right? You said two, right?

Two years old Right This is where their Life has to begin

In that ministry Because if she's not ministering well to the home Then I'm not

Going to be able to do what I need to do In ministry either because I'm going to be constantly Worried about what's going on at home

One of the blessings that I have is I don't have to Worry about the house I'm not saying

I don't contribute, I do Obviously, but I know that my wife Has her understanding

By supporting me And doing the things that I do And she does what needs to be done

And there's a great balance there And I'm thankful for our church, and that's why I said I'm not here saying, oh man, the church

Is treating my wife I'm glad that my church treats my wife very well So I didn't do this podcast as an airing of Grievances, you know, this isn't a

Seinfeld What's it called? Festivus Festivus, thank you!

See, Kofi, now we're best friends Because you knew that So it's not an airing of grievances

I'm thankful that this is An area where I feel like my church Has not mistreated us, my church has

Treated us very well There is another side to it though, and this goes Back to what you said,

Adam, and I'll get you guys To comment on this When it comes to the Interview process

I do think there is a sense in which A man's wife should be Supportive of what he does

And therefore she can be part of the interview And the conversation Not what can she contribute

But does she support what you're doing And is she on board with this Because I think if a man's wife isn't

On board with it, that would be a Pretty big red flag, would you guys agree with that? Yeah, I would certainly agree

I think that is a reflection of the marriage You're not going to stop being married just because You're on the clock as a pastor

Part of that is she is our Accountability partner, she is our Helpmate, she is the mother of our

Children, she is our wife She is the one we are to have the Most intimate relationship with I haven't met anyone who's able to I've met a lot of people who are

Able to compartmentalize, I haven't met a lot of Pastors who are able to compartmentalize To the degree

Where they are able to Come home and never Mention anything that goes on in the ministry

Or in the pastorate with their wife Just keep those worlds completely separate I don't even think that's necessarily healthy So I think that there is

There are tons of stuff they should be Supportive in, it is a job I would even argue that It is a calling,

I think that's been hijacked To mean some corny things But I think that when you Meet a wife who

I think Speaking of my own wife I think she meets so many of those

Proverbs 31 characteristics of a Husband, things over time that God Has made and revealed and Shapened in her, and I believe

That she has great things to add to our ministry But nothing is expected of her In a vocational sense, that doesn't mean

That she should be In disagreement with Anything that her husband is doing or deciding

To do in the church, and if she is, I think Her husband should listen to it But I think this is one of those problems

You see whenever you get to a church Where it's the husband and The wife are co -pastors,

I don't Know if you've had this experience, whenever I see that Number one, it's already really a bad idea In the term of pastor

But it's often pretty much just Him listening And being led by his wife, almost

Nine times out of ten, that is Just a woman leading the church and the husband's Sort of there to get the more conservative

Tithers off their back That's sort of what I've kind of Grasped from it, at least from my third person

Point of view, but that Is a dangerous situation. Your Wife can absolutely be your helpmate and still

Have some disagreements with things that you're doing In ministry, but those things should be talked about And so support would be huge from a congregants

Point of view Amen. Kofi, your thoughts On that? No, I would heartily affirm everything

My brother just said At the end of the day When God calls us to ministry,

He doesn't Call our wives in the same way That doesn't mean that she's not involved Doesn't mean we don't listen to the wisdom

Of our wives. I regularly Will ask my wife's advice about things because You know, I think we can all say this

As pastors and as men here You know, sometimes we miss things Sometimes we don't have the pulse on things

The way that our wives do And so absolutely I want to hear the wisdom of my wife And at the same time

I want to acknowledge That at the end of the day She's not the pastor of Redeemer Bible Fellowship Like I am

You know, she's a member of the church I want her to be involved As much as any other member in our church

But again, there's not a special role That she has I'm not trying to necessarily foster that understanding

In the life of our congregation In unhealthy ways We're going to take a break here in just a second

And I want to play our gospel presentation Which we do on our show But before we do that, I'm going to load you up for the next question

So that you can be thinking about it You mentioned, Adam, about Sharing things with your wife It's impossible to compartmentalize

Ministry completely But I do know that there are areas Where I feel like I do have to protect her

And I do have to also protect the congregation In the sense that She can't know everything

So where do you draw those lines? That's the question I want to ask And what areas does your wife know

That you're going to draw those lines on? So we're going to take this break And we'll come back and talk about that in just a second Hey guys,

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Now back to the show Alright brothers, thank you for your patience

So when we talk about the Relationship that we have with our wives And what we share

And what we don't I think there's some obvious things And maybe I'll just start with those

And then we can dig down Into maybe more particulars But like if Brother Earl We don't have an

Earl so I can say that If Brother Earl comes to me and says That he is struggling with a particular

Sin in his life and he wants me to pray With him, pray for him And maybe even become some sort of accountability partner

With him so that I can address that issue with him I would make sure That no one knew about that Unless it was something that affected the whole church

If it was something that had to be brought to the elders or something I would make sure that stayed between Brother Earl and myself

And would not be a part of the Conversation that I would have with my wife Because of Brother Earl's trust in me

So I think that's one of the First initial things There has to be a line where my wife

Knows, you know, there are Things that she just can't Know because Brother Earl trusts me

Would you guys both affirm that As at least the initial line of Demarcation?

Oh yeah, absolutely Yeah, absolutely What other areas do you think

And I have some in my mind, but I want to hear from you guys What other areas do you think are Best that she not

Have privy to? That's my little something to think about Yeah Well, I would throw this one in I think if there is a danger that You know,

I think Romans 12 talks about Outdoing one another and showing honor If there is

Something that I could tell my wife That would affect her ability To show honor to another believer I would be cautious Personally about that because I don't want

Her perception of that person To become affected Again, not to say that my wife has this problem, but I'm keenly aware that Human nature being what it is

There are some things you hear and that becomes The interpretive lens Through which you view a person

And I would be very cautious about maybe You know, giving information

That leads to that Now if she's observed something Independently of me, okay, fine, we may talk about it

But, you know I would say issues Where the perception of someone

Or the treatment of someone could Potentially be affected by what you've said I'd be very cautious personally

In maybe sharing That kind of information with my wife Not because I don't trust her, but I don't want to Affect her ability to obey what

I think is That very important biblical command That's really Insightful, Kofi And important Because, I mean, we all

Would probably agree that there's people In our church that upset us at times And if we bring

Home that frustration And share it with our wife, you know, hey I'm really frustrated with Brother Earl Again, I don't have an

Earl, so Earl is my Avatar for all of my anger and frustration And sin today

But if I come home and you say, Brother Earl really Angered me today because of thus And so, then that is

In no way helping my wife to Love Brother Earl better And it's certainly bringing it to the

Wrong person, because if I do have An issue with Brother Earl, I either need to bring it to him Or bring it to God, or perhaps bring it to the elders

If it's a sin issue that needs To be dealt with, but ultimately It's not

My wife's to carry, so I think That's a good point, Kofi You know, we want her to honor him

So much as he is a brother So, very good thought Adam, add

Something for us Absolutely, I think Kofi hit it out of the park With that understanding of protection

Of our wife, we're their leader First, we're the head of our household First, even before our church, and so If there's anything that she is going to Know from us, number one

The content matters, in other words The context of that content given, if it Was expressed to me to keep it confidential

That is my first priority, is to Maintain honesty, that's something my wife's gonna Want me to do, if someone said, do not share this

Information, please, with anyone And I think it's become so normal For a pastor to share pretty much every single

Thing going on in the church with their Wife, with his wife Or their wives, if you look at pastors in the south

Specifically, people will say And even your wife, please don't share this With even your wife, let this be, that's the first thing

I'm gonna honor, is honesty And so that context, if there If that context isn't there, it is about Why would

I need to share this Information, and can I Distinguish sharing this with my wife

From something that's Helpful, that's something where she could add Or attribute or bring wisdom or discernment

To the situation Versus, am I just venting and Complaining to her And not necessarily sharing it for anyone's well -being

But simply because I'm weak And have to get this off my chest So that I can feel better About what

I'm carrying, instead of bringing That to the Lord, first and foremost So I don't think it's necessarily Inherently wrong to share something

That's weighing on you with your wife And there's also ways to do this without Giving away the entire

Story, or giving every detail To a situation, but I think One thing I do, back to Kofi's answer

Monitor, is If I'm struggling after hearing something That is tough to hear, which we've

All been in that situation Something somebody's going to, and they Did the right thing by coming to us and sharing this with us

So we could pray for them and walk it out with them And if I'm struggling With self -righteousness or viewing

That person in a negative light or not being Able to minister to them effectively I am not going to hand that burden over To my wife.

I think one thing We have to remember is that we're all pretty Fast to say, look, you didn't hire her You hired me

And then what we do is we go home and we pretend We're co -pastors because We aren't going to the right accountability

And we aren't walking through in the right manner So I think that's definitely something To think about. A protection of honor

Was really a genius answer Yeah, and hey When I need to vent, I just call

Adam I just call you You have your podcast for that Your podcast basically

You just jump into character If you need to vent, it's typically about another Denomination, and so you just dress up As someone from that denomination

And then just vent away. It's a brilliant Therapeutic system That you've given to the world

See, you've just told everyone My secret. See, it's not That I'm nice.

People think I'm nice I'm not. I'm getting it all out In comedic expression It's a huge passive aggressive ministry

That you have going on here That is just caught like It's caught like wildfire

Everybody's on board with it It's genius I have nothing but respect for it I love it

Passive aggressive. Oh my goodness I haven't thought about that But I'm going to have to It's a huge passive aggressive ministry

Oh my goodness Did you guys see my conversation With the IFB pastors?

I don't know if you saw that Yeah, I did see that That was fun. It's hard It's just sitting and kindly being called a heretic

And just sitting here And I'm just smiling Yep, say what you want to say Deep down, and you've

I know it's a little off topic But you've pretty much been unapologetic Siding with White and those other guys

I've called you several times on this issue before Considering where we live This always comes up But not being a

KJV onlyist And then being in a room full of people Who are not only KJV only But believe you to be in danger of heresy

For going with any other version Outside of the King James Version That was a little

Daniel in the Lion's Den depiction When I was watching it How you handled that Well, to their credit

Everybody stayed nice Even when they were saying I was a heretic They were at least nice about it So sweet Ran away

But there is something I had on my mind In regard to this question

Of pastors and wives And this is going to go back To the question of Ministry offices

Because We know that the Pastoral letters 1st and 2nd

Timothy and Titus specifically Address the roles of pastors The qualifications

Of ministers And there's a part that has always been A point of Question for me

And it's not that I don't have my own answer But I'm always interested to hear Other pastors' answers on this

Because we all have to address Questions when they're brought to us And Our church has

Male elders And male deacons We do not have a female diaconate

However, I do know At John MacArthur's church and other churches They would see 1st

Timothy 3 Verse 11 where it says The pastors and the ESV, their wives In some translations say women

And we know the word guneh Can be translated either as women Or their women or their wives

So we understand there's an underlying reason So when that Verse is brought up And people say

Okay, here's where women deacons come into play That's fine If that's a position someone wants to take

It's not the position I take But if that's a position that someone takes MacArthur position I'm not going to argue that But here's where my question comes in And if you guys are one who takes it

As women deacons, that's fine You can explain that But if you take it as their wives

As the ESV translates it In referring then That they are

The antecedent to that pronoun Would be the deacons

Why is it that we are given Qualifications for deacons' wives

And not qualifications For pastors' wives And I know my answer

But I don't want to go first And we'll see if we all have the same answer Or maybe a different answer And I'll share mine if it's functionally different Than what you guys come up with So go first Whoever wants to go first Nobody's excited

I'll start the cat among the pigeons I suppose So I I'll put it this way

I tentatively agree With MacArthur's position And I say tentatively simply because I've done some study into the issue

But not enough for me To be Willing to die on that hill necessarily

So to give some context even in our church Which is pretty small We just appointed two deacons and both of them are men

And I did get people ask me what my thoughts were I said look this is tentatively where I'm at I've not had an opportunity to teach this

To our congregation even And so I told them look for now

I am On the side of what I think is very Clear in scripture which is Men are called to that office

And that's what we're going to practice here When I have had in my opinion the proper Time to study this out

And to land conclusively I may Take a different view and I may bring that to our congregation

But I do think There's something I wouldn't again put my feet down hard And say yes

I think 100 % is Teaching this but I do think there is something To be said for the fact that there isn't a mention

About the elders Wife in 1 Timothy 3 that is said About deacons wives Or women if you take that view

I do think there is Something there I just haven't In my own conscience been able to Settle the issue to where I can say

I have a Firm conviction about that I think that's very fair brother and I appreciate that Yeah absolutely

I don't know where Keith lands on this I really don't because Keith and I have never talked about it

I think that you I think it's smart in some ways to have Caregivers That are women

Ministering to women Specifically in certain situations I just think there's a lot that we could talk about Extensively when it comes to variables

That we too are We're elder council Which are just men And then we have a diaconate

But the only men In that diaconate Only the men have been ordained as deacons

But there are women serving in a diaconate Role there And so I think when you look at 1 Timothy 3 11

You see according to certain interpretations That Paul is referring not to deacons wives But to women who serve as deacons

And if it's interpreted as women Who serve as deacons The use of the word likewise in verse 8 could suggest

That that group of leaders In addition to elders and deacons Which is why it's there and not

Not in the elders text Specifically That's a suggestion I'm with Kofi I haven't given that too much thought

I don't know where I'd land I probably agree more with MacArthur's interpretation I just think that that's a good practical way

Of demonstrating the offices In a body of believers Especially when you get to pastoral ministry

And safe pastoral ministry I will add That the reason I think this has gotten so skewed

In current cultural settings Specifically ours, Keith Is because deacons have been

Given the place of elders Unjustifiably and without qualification So the reason

We make our own messes And we want to sit here and talk forever About how to get out of these messes

Is when there is And I know we can agree with this There are elders given to the church Instead of a

CEO Ladder type of pastoring Where the deacons are then Called in to be the yes men

Good old boys Who can sit in the chair and start the boards And lead as chairman And act like they are fellow pastors and elders

And certainly meet some of those Moral qualifications In high character I've met some of the highest characters I've ever met

In the church are deacons So I'm not squashing the importance Of the caregiving office

They are leading servants But when we mess the offices up to such a degree

That the deacons are doing a job They should not be doing Then this sort of muddies up What we mean by qualifications

And who those qualifications can be given to And I think it drives us further away From a MacArthur type translation

Of 1 Timothy 3 .11 So that would be I think What plays against that interpretation

More than even hermeneutics I think it's cultural In a lot of ways Yeah and I would agree with you

Adam Particularly on the cultural aspect Of where we are I mean Kofi you're in Oregon Have you always lived sort of north

And obviously not always I mean I know you're From a different country But while you've been in America have you always lived

In the northern part of America or have you ever lived In the south? Oh yeah my entire time Has been in the Pacific Northwest Oh okay alright

So I know that I've never Lived north of the I guess the

Mason -Dixon line Whatever they want to call it, I've always lived as I'm a southern boy, I've always been a southern boy So the culture that Adam's talking about I mean

I'm steeped in it I've never lived more than 20 miles From where I was born, I was born in University Hospital I still live within 20 miles of University Hospital That's where I've always lived

And so this is the culture That I grew up in and I know that within Within my growing up church culture

Deacon was just a man That was like it was a man thing And so when someone

Provides a MacArthur response Of Well there can also

Be a role of deacon for women There's an automatic sort of visceral Reaction to that because of what

Adam Had said and that is that Deacons have been seen as leaders Specifically as in the

Position of it was the Pastor and the deacons right there was one man Pastor and then there was these deacons there wasn't

A board of elders it was you know The deacons ran the show But I do

Want to step back and I want to sort of give Another option of What I may think Paul may be doing here

As just my thoughts and I'm completely open To being wrong on this because I think

This is something that as both of you have said There's a lot of nuance here that has to be considered The word likewise and The fact that gune can mean women or wives

Or whatever there's a lot that can be Discussed here. I do think that There is a distinction

Between what can be shared Between a Duty of a deacon with His wife versus a duty of a deacon

Or a pastor with his wife The duty of the deacon Can have

Something and this is the way we treat it At our church is the deacons Are men but their wives

Are welcome to And encouraged to participate In their ministry in a way

That the wives of elders can't Participate in the ministry that we do And I think what you guys

Said especially About there's certain things that women just Do better with other women

When it comes to certain ministries there's certain things That women can provide To other women that is a service

A deacon acting role and if you Wanted to call that woman a deaconess In the way Phoebe was called a deaconess

I think I would probably be okay with that If that was the way we were using that term As a servant of the church

But I think where I would draw a line is I would say I don't think it's an ordained office And I don't know that it is with MacArthur I'd have to look up how they do it if they actually

Ordain women deacons or if they just recognize That they're women who are gifted with service But we would say that it's

Particularly a man who is in The role of deacon that his wife Would have within that role

A role of service alongside Of him that would be unique to that that would Not function in the role of elder because My wife can't preach alongside of me

My wife is not going to do that My wife is, there's certain things that she's not She's not going to come to elders meetings

And make policy decisions for the church Alongside of me whereas a man Who is a deacon his wife can serve alongside

Of him in almost every way that he does In a way that's unique to her So I think that's a nuanced way of looking

At it and perhaps the reason why Paul Is addressing the wives of deacons here And that's my kind of strange

But odd but still I think possible interpretation I think that's actually pretty

Compatible. I don't see Those two things as As having to live in two separate

Universes. I think There's a lot to be said about a deacon And his wife being called to the role

Of being leading servants in the church Versus an elder And his wife both being

The servant leaders for the entire congregation I think that That's apples and oranges for anyone who's lived

A certain amount of time or spent a certain amount of time In a church setting. You know that those Functions are completely different But still in the same ballpark

So I wouldn't have a problem with that Or really MacArthur's We do not ordain anyone who is

A part of the deaconate So there's a recognition And then there is

It's done through leadership. We ordain elders And I think again This sort of circles back to the reason

Why you even know of deacon Ordinations And then pastors who are on the

Payroll preaching a view of a call Is because of certain very culturally Specific setups

For the offices in Evangelical churches. So I think I think what you said is

Very well could be the interpretation Yeah and I Said the word ordain for deacon

But you're right. We actually We use the word appoint versus ordain And it's only because of Yeah Kofi do you guys ordain deacons or do you

What language do you use? So when we Selected Two men who function as deacons in our church

I was very clear to say that we are appointing These men and that we believe the Language of ordination is

Primarily for the Elder office. Amen Well getting back to our wives

And I know that was a little bit of a departure But I wanted to make this sort of a you know I don't always get to talk to pastors

Guys as educated as you guys So I love to ask good hard questions And put you on the spot because that's fun

But the The We're when we talk About our wives and we talk about the ministry

That they do to support us I want you to just take a minute and Because this is oh by the

Way did y 'all know this was pastors appreciation Pastors wife appreciation month did y 'all even know that Not until you

Said that at the end of your Video so yeah Saved me a huge Amount of trouble my wife wouldn't have given me

That trouble but there would have been some ladies in the church After a Sunday have been like I hope You know I hope you took your wife out for a wonderful Dinner it's best they would have known they know

When like pancake day is like they Know everything and so That's that you saved me from that Conversation I didn't

Know it existed until a week ago Not even a week ago when I found out It existed my wife and I Immediately began writing the script for That video because it was her

Friend you know Jennifer Bradshaw David's wife She she just mentioned that somebody had told

Her that march is pastors wife appreciation Month and I said well let's Let's make a video

A pastors wife denomination video And so I wrote the script and I wrote it with Jennifer that well we call them

Jen squared Because two Jennifer's yeah So we wrote I wrote it with the two of them in mind And we we went to her house we filmed it in Jen's house which is great because at one point

When she's playing the Presbyterian there's a There's a single malt scotch behind her It's only it's it's not really visible

Real well but it's behind her you know because the Presbyterian you know they They they enjoy their single malt

Scotch but Anyway but we found Out about this and I just said you know what

I want to come on at the End of the video I want to mention this because Does your Church actually recognize

Pastor appreciation month which is in October do you guys have has that been Something that you've experienced

Kofi No okay Adam have you Had no

I really I don't I guess this is a Kind of trapping me

I feel like this is gonna Oh I'm sorry No no no Just kidding

I think so I Didn't want to say that they don't do anything For me because there's like you know 400 people there's

There's someone who gives you a Gift card because they know They've been a Baptist long enough they're like oh

You know what it's October I think we're supposed to Do something special for you and so we've Had a lot of sweet people gift us

During that month we don't recognize It like we don't have a part of the Service where like someone

Gets tasked to bring pastors up and Be like let's give them all a round of applause For being ordained and this

Isn't something we broadcast on our social network So I would probably agree with Kofi It's not anything we would we celebrate

But there are a couple people who might go Hey here's take your wife out For dinner here's something and I didn't want

To speak against them because then you know the Gift cards would stop that's what I meant By you trapping me

I'm doing this to save face this is a Financial decision you put me in Well For me like it's

Kind of been like not every year Like I remember specifically when Aaron Bell was our worship leader now that's

Been several years ago and I know Kofi you don't Know him but he's a fellow pastor in the area He was he was our worship leader he

Went to Southern and he came back And became the pastor of a church it's actually Almost exactly between Adam and me

So like he's like he's like right Between where we are in a place called Yulee and Aaron One year he

Like raised money and he Sent my wife and I to the Ligonier conference And he did all this stuff for pastors

Appreciation and but that was Many years ago but I remember that specifically I Thought it was very sweet But in general it sort of comes and goes

And there are people who like you said they'll give you a gift card But it's not something we do we don't do a big Churchwide we're going to appreciate

I always tell people I feel like I'm Appreciated if they come and listen to the word I feel like I'm appreciated if they continue

To support my family as they do All the time the church shows me their appreciation By by loving me

Every every time we get Together I I'm thankful So like I don't need that but I Do think

I think it's interesting that Most of the people I have talked to Never heard of pastors wife appreciation

And it might just be something new it might Just be something that somebody made up every Holiday is made up except for like like the

Real important ones like Christmas and Easter But everything Is made up right so we make up Father's Day we make up Mother's Day I mean 200 years ago there was no

Father's Day Mother's Day Right that's a that's a that's a holiday that came Into being and so I just said you know what

I do think it's worth Stopping and saying That the men behind or excuse me

The women behind The men who are preaching the women behind The men who are up there are worth

Being celebrated Simply for the fact that they put up With the biggest centers in the church us

Like they put up with the big maybe not the biggest Centers but the biggest I'm I definitely am The largest center in my church

Oh come on that's A good joke I got it Man that was great it was good

So I so as we were getting Close to the hour mark here I want to ask both Of you to simply say something

About your bride I'm sure it's easy You love your brides you're thankful for Them say something that Is unique to her that you

Appreciate and I think that would Just be good because hopefully they'll hear this and be Encouraged by it and And I think that would be a good way

For us to round out this conversation So whoever wants to go first and I'll Go last well thank you for giving

Me the opportunity to do that Keith because I could I could talk about Amy Jo Forever she is my biggest

Interest and I will Say too it's not just that she joined Me in ministry

But I have I have Run every decision Ministry related as far as our

Career like walking into this choosing To do this vocationally accepting the Calling all of this has been done

With Amy Jo and Present and and giving me Where God's leading her or What the

Holy Spirit is doing In her life and and how he's kind of Moving both of us We immediately had things in common

Like wanting to homeschool our kids and wanting To have kids and she we Went to seminary and we both got jobs

She's been nothing but supportive And she's incredibly genuinely kind I always tell people people that She loves better than I do which

Is always a weird statement coming from your pastor Where it's just the sense that it's Easier for her it seems to just Genuinely love people the way

You're supposed to love people From where how she's Lived her life evidence of her life and So she's given that love to our kids

To our church she's just an incredibly Loving wise Person who it would

Be completely ignorant of me Not to lean on her strengths And understand her talents and Showcase them and express thankfulness

For them Amy Jo's the reason She's the reason I got my Life in order and it's certainly

The reason that I went into Ministry I was not headed for that at all And so I think that that can all be attributed

To the Holy Spirit to the Lord To our Father God and him Using my wife

For what we believe to be his purposes And his will so that's Just a short version

I could go on and on But I'm more than thankful For her I think I think to be a healthy Pastor you should have a healthy

Amount of thanks for your wife I think that that they're definitely Related Amen brother coffee

Sure I'll do my best not to get emotional about this because It does hit home for me what I'm about to Say So we planted our church in 2019

And If anyone listening church planting Not for the faint of heart I'll just put it that way

We've had Pastoral we had a pastoral transition A year in we've had

A good number of people Leave praise the Lord a good number of people join But you know

And we've had we've had some losses of Relationships and losses Friendships as a result of You know what we've been trying to do here

In southern Oregon And I Really couldn't do what I do without my wife because Every time

That something has happened just by nature The way I am things hit me very hard And There have been moments where I've wanted to walk

Away but you know what I don't know if this is what God would have me to do You know I could

This is affecting my home I don't know if this is what I want to do and This is the thing

I love most about my wife She just has a spine of steel And More than once She has just said

This happened on Sunday where I was Unhappy about a situation that happened And you know my wife could see

I was unhappy about it and I just confessed I was like I get worried that You've lost a few friends because of decisions

I've made and I don't regret the Decisions I might regret the effects And she just looked me dead in the eye

And said Kofi when we got together You told me you wanted to be in ministry

And I prepared myself for that reality I'm fine And I'm like I know you might be fine

I'm not fine with that But no Kofi I'm fine And just the way that God Has gifted her

That's not to say that she's not at all She's incredibly tender hearted

Incredibly sympathetic But God has just given her a resilience That I honestly could not

Do pioneer church planting Without her And so I'm incredibly thankful for her

And just the resilience And the perseverance that God has given her To where she's willing to count the cost

And is like no this is I believe God has called you to do this Kofi I want to support you in that And hey if it costs us it costs us

But I could not do what I do without her That was beautiful brother

And I remember years ago I met A Presbyterian minister

And He had been in ministry for Had to have been 40 -50 years

I mean I was new to the ministry And I was going through a very difficult time And my wife sat with his wife

For an hour and I sat with him for an hour They didn't know us we just visited their church We were on vacation we visited their church

Afterwards he came up and introduced himself to me And he said you're a pastor aren't you I said yeah how do you know He said you were paying attention during the sermon

I thought that was so funny I thought that was a great answer He said I just could tell

By the way you were paying attention You seem to be somebody who knows A little about what we're doing here

And I just thought that was a funny answer But my wife and I my wife talked to her Wife and one of the things she said was

You know it's really hard To have friends because of the Nature of ministry and people leave your life

So easily and People walk away so easily and And what you just said really just rung in my

Heart because you know There have been a lot A lot of times

Where we've watched that heartbreak and it's with our kids And I would tell you this Brother because I know your children are

Small It's hard and it's one of the Hard things is watching your kids have their

Hearts get broken over a friend leaving Because it's not their friend's choice Their parents are leaving or whatever

It can be really tough But praise God for your wife Praise God that she sees that As part of her ministry that she understands

It's a hard life and People do leave and people Walk away but praise be to God that she's standing with you

Absolutely. I think that was Such a great answer and in Terms of eternal perspective to just praise

God for wives with a Strong sense Of what they're called to do

And to what life they're called To live towards and so to Me that was when you said resilience that Hung real true.

I also Love that I went first and then you gave That answer and now I sound like an Idiot chump on this thing

And Kofi Sounds like freaking Idris Elba just sitting

There, you know, giving Like this beautiful Let me pause you for a second

Prejudice answer. She bewitched Me heart and soul and I'm sitting there going She's loving, she's

Nice sometimes Oh man. So just to pause you on that Point. So you mentioned

Idris Elba. He and I are actually from the same Part of East London. Unbelievable Oh that's great.

Yeah He's from Hackney which is the part of East London I'm from Yeah well my grandfather Tried to steal a train so We all have

Connections that we're proud of And not proud of Kofi. You don't have To rub it in my

Southern face I say that I say that out of just complete

Respect. The way you carry yourself Kofi It really shows How much you love your wife in all seriousness

That was just a really beautiful answer No thank you. And I think Other pastors actually

Needed to hear And pastors wives need to hear That appreciation

Of resilience. Like man So much can be said with just We know it's tough but we're going to do it together

We know it's tough but God's got us And we're going to do it together. I think just a lot Can be said for that Amen.

And I did Say I would go last and as I said now I've got to Go after that but I'll I'll say this.

Mine is In no way as articulate or as beautiful But I will say this

There's something to be said for knowing your wife Is on your team And knowing that she is never trying to Undermine what you're doing

But is always there to Encourage you. I remember the first day I met My wife. I met my wife

October 26 1997 It was the day we met And I remember

Looking at her. I remember what she was wearing I remember she was wearing a red shirt with blue jeans White tennis shoes and we ate at a

Ryan Steakhouse because her dad Took us to dinner because I was teaching her A magic trick and there's a long story behind that She was in a performing arts class.

She was An athlete. So I took Her Our dads worked together.

I was a professional magician It was kind of a weird thing. But anyhow I've never had

Anybody made me feel like They actually Genuinely cared about what

I was Doing and wanted to be a part of it As much as she did from the very moment I met her She genuinely cared

About me. What I was doing And at the time I was a magician. I was a 17 year old professional magician which

Sounds like it's not even a thing. It was a thing And that's what I wanted to do with my life And she was like fine with that.

Like she was Like fine with marrying a magician Not the first day we met but like Like I didn't get saved until The year we got married.

The year it was actually After we got married. But my wife has Always been so supportive

And loved me and Truly been on my team And I'm so Thankful for that.

And when that became a Ministry. When that became our life was Following Christ it didn't change

She's still That same person who supports me And loves me. She looks at me the same way she did

That day. And I'm Just thankful to have somebody who looks at me That way and who

I know I always have that person On my team. And like People come and people go.

And that's what we're Talking about Kofi. People come in in our lives In and out of our lives. But having Her there being

Now I'm gonna cry But man I'm thankful that God gave us three wonderful wives

And that is all His glory. All His grace And all of His mercy.

And I'm glad we had An opportunity to talk about that today Because What better thing other than just the

Salvation that we have in our Lord could we talk About than the blessing we have in The wives that He's given us

Well gentlemen as we close the show I want to give the opportunity. I know Adam you have a Podcast and Kofi I know you

Do ministry and outside of your church Writings and things like that. Do you have A podcast? I wasn't sure about that It's on hiatus but we'll be

In your timing soon. Okay Well take the next minute as we Close. Tell everyone how

If they want to get in contact with you. If they're close By and want to join your church or visit with you Tell them about that.

I'll let you both have a minute And then we're gonna close out the show. Adam You go first.

Well I'm pastoring at Amelia Baptist Church In Amelia Island, Fernanda Beach, Florida Area. We'd love to see you.

We have services at 9am And 1045am We also podcast

The We Bear Witness podcast We really have enjoyed Doing that. We've had a lot of Really cool people on recently

So you can find us anywhere Podcasts are platformed as well as our YouTube channel At We Bear Witness. We'd love to see you subscribe

And yeah We really enjoy it. So thank you for checking That out. I've been meaning to do a parody

Of your show called She Bear Witness About Elijah. I think that would be funny The She Bear Witness I just haven't had a chance to do it yet But it's coming

I can't wait man Alright sorry Kofi Go ahead

I was supposed to follow that I know it's so silly It's so funny Well if anyone

Well I think the primary way to catch up with me is on social media So I'm on Twitter A Kofi Cup So a

Kofi Cup. I'm also on Facebook Instagram, all the usual places If you want to know more about our church Redeemer Bible Fellowship You can go to our website which is

RedeemerMedford .org So RedeemerMedford .org All of our sermons are up there

You can catch up with what's happening at the church And hey If you're ever in the southern

Oregon area You're welcome to join us. We have services At 10 .15 on Sundays And yeah we'd love to have you with us

I just love that it's RedeemerMedford Because my first name is Medford So it just sounds like It just sounds funny

Like RedeemerMedford No my name is Keith but thank you No that's wrong Well thank you both for being a part of the show

And I really appreciate it I want to thank you guys For being a part of your Calvinist Podcast Remember please

If you want to get in touch with me you can do so By sending me a message at calvinistpodcast At gmail .com

If you're interested in our church you can go to sgfcjacks .org And again If you like the video hit a thumbs up If you didn't like it hit the thumbs down button twice