What are the Expectations of a Pastor's Wife?

Your Calvinist

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:06

Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me, so heavy

00:13

And I need a friendly voice with some good theology

00:19

Now that I see me speaking, so I mix a manly drink, Pepsi and shoe polish

00:24

And I hit the YouTube link, don't say hit, that sounds violent And I feel my troubles all melt away, oh oh

00:33

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Boski Beers and boat rides, laughs till sunrise

00:48

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Boski He's not like most

00:58

Calvinists, he's nice Your Calvinist podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

01:09

And hey guys, welcome to Your Calvinist podcast My name is Keith Boski and as always,

01:15

I am your Calvinist I want to thank you for being a part of the show today And before I bring my guests in,

01:20

I do have a little bit of housekeeping I need to do I want to remind you again that this podcast is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church So if you're in the

01:27

Jacksville area and you'd like to visit with us, you can learn more about us at sgfcjacks .org

01:33

I also want to remind you about 1689 Cigars This is not a paid sponsorship, but it is a friendship that I have with the guys over there

01:40

And they have offered all of our viewers the opportunity to get great cigars at a good price

01:47

And you can get a discount by putting in Superior Theology as a coupon code

01:53

And be able to go to 1689 Cigars and support the ministry over there of those guys Who are using great cigars to further the gospel of Christ Well, I have two gentlemen with me today, two pastors, two husbands, two fathers

02:07

Who are going to, I'm going to bring in now And we're going to be talking about the subject of our wives

02:15

Which could be dangerous, but I think it's going to be a lot of fun So I'm bringing on with me now

02:20

Pastor Kofi from, he is in Medford Which is exciting because that is my first name and that's where his church is

02:27

Medford, Oregon, right? And then Adam Page, who is the pastor

02:33

One of the pastors at Amelia Baptist Church in Amelia Island, Florida Gentlemen, thank you both for being on your

02:40

Calvinist podcast with me today Thanks Keith Thanks for having me

02:46

Yes sir, and I'd like to begin with Kofi If you would, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from Your ministry, how long you've been a pastor

02:56

And just give us a little overview of who you are and what you do Sure, so Kofi Dubois and I am 33

03:04

I live in Medford, Oregon, I've lived here since 2017 Moved here from the

03:10

UK, which as well was born and raised Been married to my wife Laura since 2017 And we have two kids,

03:18

Gareth, who is going to be four in May And little Rosemary, who is just under a month old

03:24

And I'm the pastor at Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Central Point Which is the next town over from us

03:32

Awesome, now Kofi, when you say you're the pastor Are you the only pastor there or do you guys have a plurality of elders?

03:39

How does that function in your church? Currently the solo pastor, praying that that won't be the case for long

03:45

Okay, I understand the situation there for sure Alright, and Brother Adam, my good friend

03:51

You're returning to the show and I'm thankful for that Just shows that I didn't scare you off the first time

03:57

And you're here with me in Jacksonville Well, you're not in Jacksonville, you're near Jacksonville Tell us about where you're at and who you are

04:05

I'm from Jacksonville And do these names that show up in the blue bubbles Are they for everybody to see right now?

04:11

Like they can see them? Everybody's going to see it I put A -Train as a joke

04:16

Thinking that would get me into StreamYard And apparently that's how I'm going I'm going by A -Train for this podcast for the first time ever

04:25

I think that's great I'll put a different background up Now we're a little bit closer That's perfect I hope it catches

04:33

I was born and raised in Jacksonville I only lived my life in another city

04:38

For three other years And that was in Louisville, Kentucky When I was attending my Southern Seminary For my

04:44

Master's of Divinity degree But I've been at Amelia Baptist Church For ten years So right out of seminary, it was the first church we had

04:51

And we're still there I'm the preaching pastor now We have a plurality of elders That is an elder council Made up of four non -vocational

04:59

Rotating elders who are ordained by our church And then two other Vocational pastors now

05:05

To help with some of the growth Pastor Neil who's been here for 35 Years And Pastor Forrest Who just got hired

05:14

Me and my wife Amy Jo have been married For 14 years this summer

05:19

And we have four children We have a 10 -year -old Six -year -old and five -year -old

05:25

Girls, Ellie Jo, Teagan and Zoe And then we have a little monster Man who's a two -year -old

05:31

Deacon, he just turned two I think, yeah March 23rd

05:36

So yeah, we have four and it's loud and busy And fun But everyone's doing alright, we're doing okay

05:43

Well good, I do have to ask you And Kofi Because your kids are so small

05:49

I don't know if you will have experienced this yet You said you have a boy and a girl, right Kofi? A boy and a girl

05:54

Well with Adam, you have three girls And then a boy Do you notice the difference yet?

06:01

Insane, it's insane The fact that anyone's having this conversation If there is a

06:07

Difference between male or female It's they're either being ignorant Or unaware or they haven't experienced it

06:13

But My daughters There was an entirely different world as girl dad

06:19

And little man has completely Thrown a wrench in everything And I mean this in a wonderfully blessed way

06:25

We consider our children blessings But I've never had So he's our first cat scan

06:30

I've never had a kid that required a cat scan already Under the age of two He is actively trying to pulverize himself

06:39

At all costs All the time He's jumping off of things, he's climbing things I've had to put locks on so many things

06:45

And that was just never the case With my girls, ever And so it's a totally different world

06:51

Which you know, you have So many kids Keith You're like what, three? I'm working on Trying to start my own race

07:00

So many children You're growing your Church the old fashioned way

07:07

That's right We have six, my wife and I this year Married 25 years And we have two adult children

07:16

And then we have four That are Still kids My two adult children are adopted though My wife and I were together for 12 years

07:25

Before we had our first positive pregnancy test So we were married Half the time we've been married

07:30

Without having any natural children We had two adopted children Thought that was what God had for us

07:36

And we were happy with that We thought it was going to be the Foskey four And it was the Foskey four for a long time And you know my daughter very well

07:43

Because she used to come to your Bible study And that's Ashley, she's my oldest, she's 25 My son

07:48

Cody's 22 He's in the Air Force, lives in Germany And then we have Hope, Justice, Faith And Theodore And what you just said about Knowing the difference between boys and girls

07:58

Not even a joke, I mean it's absolutely The emotional range in our house

08:03

Is just amazing And anyone who says That there's really no difference

08:09

Between boys and girls Is just out of their minds And that leads me to I guess the first question

08:16

And get you guys both to a pint on this When we talk about ministry When we talk about men and women in ministry

08:23

I think all three of us would agree But I want to make sure Out of the gate, we would all agree

08:28

That there are ministry positions That are for men that are not for women Would we all affirm that?

08:35

Yeah, correct Absolutely And would you, I would say First of all, obviously the position of Elder, pastor, which

08:43

I think is Functionally the same role even though They may be vocational, non -vocational As you were saying

08:49

Adam, like in our church We have vocational, non -vocational, still the position Of elder In that position we would say women are not

08:56

To serve in that position Correct? That's right Kofi, we're good?

09:03

I heartily affirm that Okay, yeah, I assume so Again, I don't want to get halfway through The conversation and you say, but wait

09:12

Because again I've known of you for a long time But we've never spoke, so I want to make sure I don't want to put words in your mouth,

09:19

Kofi For sure, also on that With the subject of This whole men and women in ministry

09:25

And the differences And what our wives do and what our wives are expected to do Just yesterday I put out a video

09:31

And I'm not sure, this won't go out right away So this will be a few days from now But just yesterday from the recording

09:36

I posted a video of A pastor's wife meeting And one of the ones in there

09:43

Was a man, it was me playing the Methodist Saying my wife's my pastor And then today I posted the statement

09:48

There is no such thing as a pastor's husband Right, that's not a thing Because that would mean a woman would be a pastor

09:54

And I've already got the negatives I've already got the people kind of hitting hard I even had one guy who wrote

10:00

A message saying, Eve was a man Because she came out of a man Which is the weirdest thing

10:05

I've ever read People are weird and people put weird stuff on Twitter But we have to affirm

10:12

God's design Of men and women And He created them, male and female And He created them with different purposes

10:19

But the The big question That we often come at When we have this

10:25

Is okay, well where are the lines In ministry? And often our wives are

10:31

Sometimes seen As the extension of us And sometimes people even treat them

10:38

Like they're sort of pseudo -pastors And some churches they do call them co -pastors Which of course we would never affirm that But it's almost like when the church

10:46

Hires us, they're hiring Her as well And I completely

10:51

Reject that, I don't think that church Gets my wife the same way They get me, but have you guys

10:57

Experienced that in your churches Where there's, and again Not looking to call anybody out or anything

11:03

But have you ever experienced, even if not in your ministry Maybe seeing it in someone else's Where a pastor's wife is being expected

11:09

To have almost the same role Of Involvement and duty

11:15

And expectation that the pastor has Is that something that you guys Have experienced and I'll let

11:21

Whichever one of you wants to go first on that Sure, so in You know, in My experience,

11:30

I have an interesting perspective On this because I grew up in a pastor's home So my dad

11:36

Is a Pentecostal pastor Has been pretty much my entire life So I grew up In a context where In my opinion, unfortunately

11:46

My own mother was very much Expected to be An extension of My dad's ministry

11:53

Plus have her own, essentially And I saw kind of growing up There was definitely this expectation

12:02

That, and sometimes I think my dad bought into it I remember him telling us as kids

12:08

God didn't just call me to ministry He called us to ministry And so there was this expectation

12:14

That we're all going to be in ministry In some way, shape, or form And my mom's dad's wife

12:20

Of course, would be Very much expected to be that And so I've seen that growing up And As I entered into a pastoral ministry

12:29

Which is its own fun story For another time, I suppose I made a very conscious effort not to foster that Because As I'm sure we'll get into In our conversation,

12:40

I'm very much Convinced that my wife's primary ministry Is to our home I don't necessarily

12:47

Believe that that means She must be involved in the life of our church She is, and she's very happy to do so But no, definitely have seen that expectation

12:55

And I do think it can get problematic I'm sure we'll get into that As the conversation unfolds

13:02

Absolutely Alright, without a shadow of a doubt I completely understand

13:08

Where Kofi's coming from here And then culturally have seen The two -for -one sale

13:14

Pastor -pastor wife Inferred Without anyone even saying anything to you

13:20

Until you're in the room Getting the interview done Let's say you're just out of seminary

13:25

And you're looking for churches And they're interviewing you to be the new pastor of their church And they will immediately launch into Well, what can your wife provide?

13:34

What are some of your wife's strengths In this position? And the position they're referring to is not a separate Vocational position for her

13:41

I think sometimes that can naturally occur later As it has with my wife As a children's ministry director

13:48

And really not even that She's an assistant in the children's ministry department But all of that has worked itself out later

13:54

It was not something that was Negotiated at the table The Emilia Baptist Church was incredibly gracious In realizing the difference between hiring me

14:02

And hiring my wife But because of previous interviews At other churches I made that pretty clear right out in front

14:10

That this is something we had seen I've been in churches where The pastor was the senior pastor

14:15

And his wife was on the board of trustees And that led to all kinds of Issues and problems within the church

14:22

We've seen We've seen pastors' wives Completely withdraw from the church altogether

14:28

Taking this to the other End of the degree of the spectrum And saying, you hired my husband We may not even come on Sundays If we have a headache

14:36

And move that way entirely And so I think you kind of have to start with As Christians, you're all called

14:42

To a ministry And so there's going to be some of these things that happen naturally There's going to be gifts and talents

14:47

I'm sure that we'll get into in our conversation That our wives have and can contribute But yes, certainly in our culture

14:54

There's an expectancy there that shouldn't be Of hiring both of us At the price of one

14:59

And that really probably needs to be corrected Any chance we get Sure.

15:04

I know one of the things that happens With my wife She'll sometimes see

15:10

Other churches where other pastors' wives Are doing certain things And that will sometimes make her feel like She should be doing something

15:18

Like, you know, Keith, I never learned to play the piano Right? And look here All these people, all these pastors' wives

15:24

Play the piano, right? I'm not running a women's ministry And look at this woman here and she's doing this

15:30

I think what you just said, Adam Is important We're not saying That a woman can't have a ministry

15:36

But that doesn't necessarily become the Absolute expectation for the pastor's wife

15:42

And every woman is in a Different place in their life Like you said, Kofi, you have a one -month -old

15:47

Right? I mean, your wife's role Is going to be surrounding That place

15:53

We have an 18 -month -old Adam, you have a two -year -old and he's your first boy Right? You said two, right?

15:59

Two years old Right This is where their Life has to begin

16:06

In that ministry Because if she's not ministering well to the home Then I'm not

16:12

Going to be able to do what I need to do In ministry either because I'm going to be constantly Worried about what's going on at home

16:17

One of the blessings that I have is I don't have to Worry about the house I'm not saying

16:22

I don't contribute, I do Obviously, but I know that my wife Has her understanding

16:28

By supporting me And doing the things that I do And she does what needs to be done

16:34

And there's a great balance there And I'm thankful for our church, and that's why I said I'm not here saying, oh man, the church

16:40

Is treating my wife I'm glad that my church treats my wife very well So I didn't do this podcast as an airing of Grievances, you know, this isn't a

16:47

Seinfeld What's it called? Festivus Festivus, thank you!

16:54

See, Kofi, now we're best friends Because you knew that So it's not an airing of grievances

17:00

I'm thankful that this is An area where I feel like my church Has not mistreated us, my church has

17:06

Treated us very well There is another side to it though, and this goes Back to what you said,

17:11

Adam, and I'll get you guys To comment on this When it comes to the Interview process

17:17

I do think there is a sense in which A man's wife should be Supportive of what he does

17:24

And therefore she can be part of the interview And the conversation Not what can she contribute

17:29

But does she support what you're doing And is she on board with this Because I think if a man's wife isn't

17:36

On board with it, that would be a Pretty big red flag, would you guys agree with that? Yeah, I would certainly agree

17:43

I think that is a reflection of the marriage You're not going to stop being married just because You're on the clock as a pastor

17:52

Part of that is she is our Accountability partner, she is our Helpmate, she is the mother of our

17:58

Children, she is our wife She is the one we are to have the Most intimate relationship with I haven't met anyone who's able to I've met a lot of people who are

18:08

Able to compartmentalize, I haven't met a lot of Pastors who are able to compartmentalize To the degree

18:15

Where they are able to Come home and never Mention anything that goes on in the ministry

18:20

Or in the pastorate with their wife Just keep those worlds completely separate I don't even think that's necessarily healthy So I think that there is

18:26

There are tons of stuff they should be Supportive in, it is a job I would even argue that It is a calling,

18:34

I think that's been hijacked To mean some corny things But I think that when you Meet a wife who

18:40

I think Speaking of my own wife I think she meets so many of those

18:45

Proverbs 31 characteristics of a Husband, things over time that God Has made and revealed and Shapened in her, and I believe

18:53

That she has great things to add to our ministry But nothing is expected of her In a vocational sense, that doesn't mean

18:59

That she should be In disagreement with Anything that her husband is doing or deciding

19:05

To do in the church, and if she is, I think Her husband should listen to it But I think this is one of those problems

19:11

You see whenever you get to a church Where it's the husband and The wife are co -pastors,

19:17

I don't Know if you've had this experience, whenever I see that Number one, it's already really a bad idea In the term of pastor

19:23

But it's often pretty much just Him listening And being led by his wife, almost

19:29

Nine times out of ten, that is Just a woman leading the church and the husband's Sort of there to get the more conservative

19:36

Tithers off their back That's sort of what I've kind of Grasped from it, at least from my third person

19:41

Point of view, but that Is a dangerous situation. Your Wife can absolutely be your helpmate and still

19:47

Have some disagreements with things that you're doing In ministry, but those things should be talked about And so support would be huge from a congregants

19:54

Point of view Amen. Kofi, your thoughts On that? No, I would heartily affirm everything

20:01

My brother just said At the end of the day When God calls us to ministry,

20:07

He doesn't Call our wives in the same way That doesn't mean that she's not involved Doesn't mean we don't listen to the wisdom

20:13

Of our wives. I regularly Will ask my wife's advice about things because You know, I think we can all say this

20:19

As pastors and as men here You know, sometimes we miss things Sometimes we don't have the pulse on things

20:25

The way that our wives do And so absolutely I want to hear the wisdom of my wife And at the same time

20:30

I want to acknowledge That at the end of the day She's not the pastor of Redeemer Bible Fellowship Like I am

20:39

You know, she's a member of the church I want her to be involved As much as any other member in our church

20:44

But again, there's not a special role That she has I'm not trying to necessarily foster that understanding

20:50

In the life of our congregation In unhealthy ways We're going to take a break here in just a second

20:58

And I want to play our gospel presentation Which we do on our show But before we do that, I'm going to load you up for the next question

21:04

So that you can be thinking about it You mentioned, Adam, about Sharing things with your wife It's impossible to compartmentalize

21:11

Ministry completely But I do know that there are areas Where I feel like I do have to protect her

21:18

And I do have to also protect the congregation In the sense that She can't know everything

21:23

So where do you draw those lines? That's the question I want to ask And what areas does your wife know

21:30

That you're going to draw those lines on? So we're going to take this break And we'll come back and talk about that in just a second Hey guys,

21:35

I just want to quickly say Thank you for watching this episode And if you're enjoying it, please hit the thumbs up button

21:40

If you're not enjoying it, hit the thumbs down button Twice Also, if you haven't already, please subscribe to the channel

21:47

It really helps us out And some of you've asked about how to support the channel If you'd like to support us

21:52

You can go to buymeacoffee .com Slash your Calvinist and leave a donation Most importantly, we want to make sure

21:58

That everybody who hears this podcast Hears the gospel The word gospel means good news And that good news has to be preceded

22:05

By some bad news And the bad news is this That we are all sinners Sin is breaking

22:11

God's law So we stand guilty before the Lord of the universe But the good news is God sent

22:16

His Son into the world To pay the penalty for everyone who would believe in Him Jesus came into the world, lived a perfect life

22:23

And He died a substitutionary death For everyone who will believe And He calls us all to repent of our sin

22:29

To turn from our unbelief And trust in Him as Lord and Savior And if you've never done that I encourage you to do so today

22:36

Now back to the show Alright brothers, thank you for your patience

22:42

So when we talk about the Relationship that we have with our wives And what we share

22:49

And what we don't I think there's some obvious things And maybe I'll just start with those

22:55

And then we can dig down Into maybe more particulars But like if Brother Earl We don't have an

23:00

Earl so I can say that If Brother Earl comes to me and says That he is struggling with a particular

23:06

Sin in his life and he wants me to pray With him, pray for him And maybe even become some sort of accountability partner

23:11

With him so that I can address that issue with him I would make sure That no one knew about that Unless it was something that affected the whole church

23:19

If it was something that had to be brought to the elders or something I would make sure that stayed between Brother Earl and myself

23:24

And would not be a part of the Conversation that I would have with my wife Because of Brother Earl's trust in me

23:30

So I think that's one of the First initial things There has to be a line where my wife

23:36

Knows, you know, there are Things that she just can't Know because Brother Earl trusts me

23:42

Would you guys both affirm that As at least the initial line of Demarcation?

23:48

Oh yeah, absolutely Yeah, absolutely What other areas do you think

23:53

And I have some in my mind, but I want to hear from you guys What other areas do you think are Best that she not

23:59

Have privy to? That's my little something to think about Yeah Well, I would throw this one in I think if there is a danger that You know,

24:14

I think Romans 12 talks about Outdoing one another and showing honor If there is

24:21

Something that I could tell my wife That would affect her ability To show honor to another believer I would be cautious Personally about that because I don't want

24:30

Her perception of that person To become affected Again, not to say that my wife has this problem, but I'm keenly aware that Human nature being what it is

24:40

There are some things you hear and that becomes The interpretive lens Through which you view a person

24:45

And I would be very cautious about maybe You know, giving information

24:50

That leads to that Now if she's observed something Independently of me, okay, fine, we may talk about it

24:56

But, you know I would say issues Where the perception of someone

25:01

Or the treatment of someone could Potentially be affected by what you've said I'd be very cautious personally

25:07

In maybe sharing That kind of information with my wife Not because I don't trust her, but I don't want to Affect her ability to obey what

25:15

I think is That very important biblical command That's really Insightful, Kofi And important Because, I mean, we all

25:26

Would probably agree that there's people In our church that upset us at times And if we bring

25:31

Home that frustration And share it with our wife, you know, hey I'm really frustrated with Brother Earl Again, I don't have an

25:38

Earl, so Earl is my Avatar for all of my anger and frustration And sin today

25:43

But if I come home and you say, Brother Earl really Angered me today because of thus And so, then that is

25:49

In no way helping my wife to Love Brother Earl better And it's certainly bringing it to the

25:55

Wrong person, because if I do have An issue with Brother Earl, I either need to bring it to him Or bring it to God, or perhaps bring it to the elders

26:01

If it's a sin issue that needs To be dealt with, but ultimately It's not

26:07

My wife's to carry, so I think That's a good point, Kofi You know, we want her to honor him

26:13

So much as he is a brother So, very good thought Adam, add

26:19

Something for us Absolutely, I think Kofi hit it out of the park With that understanding of protection

26:25

Of our wife, we're their leader First, we're the head of our household First, even before our church, and so If there's anything that she is going to Know from us, number one

26:35

The content matters, in other words The context of that content given, if it Was expressed to me to keep it confidential

26:41

That is my first priority, is to Maintain honesty, that's something my wife's gonna Want me to do, if someone said, do not share this

26:47

Information, please, with anyone And I think it's become so normal For a pastor to share pretty much every single

26:53

Thing going on in the church with their Wife, with his wife Or their wives, if you look at pastors in the south

26:58

Specifically, people will say And even your wife, please don't share this With even your wife, let this be, that's the first thing

27:05

I'm gonna honor, is honesty And so that context, if there If that context isn't there, it is about Why would

27:11

I need to share this Information, and can I Distinguish sharing this with my wife

27:17

From something that's Helpful, that's something where she could add Or attribute or bring wisdom or discernment

27:22

To the situation Versus, am I just venting and Complaining to her And not necessarily sharing it for anyone's well -being

27:30

But simply because I'm weak And have to get this off my chest So that I can feel better About what

27:37

I'm carrying, instead of bringing That to the Lord, first and foremost So I don't think it's necessarily Inherently wrong to share something

27:44

That's weighing on you with your wife And there's also ways to do this without Giving away the entire

27:50

Story, or giving every detail To a situation, but I think One thing I do, back to Kofi's answer

27:56

Monitor, is If I'm struggling after hearing something That is tough to hear, which we've

28:02

All been in that situation Something somebody's going to, and they Did the right thing by coming to us and sharing this with us

28:07

So we could pray for them and walk it out with them And if I'm struggling With self -righteousness or viewing

28:13

That person in a negative light or not being Able to minister to them effectively I am not going to hand that burden over To my wife.

28:20

I think one thing We have to remember is that we're all pretty Fast to say, look, you didn't hire her You hired me

28:27

And then what we do is we go home and we pretend We're co -pastors because We aren't going to the right accountability

28:33

And we aren't walking through in the right manner So I think that's definitely something To think about. A protection of honor

28:38

Was really a genius answer Yeah, and hey When I need to vent, I just call

28:44

Adam I just call you You have your podcast for that Your podcast basically

28:50

You just jump into character If you need to vent, it's typically about another Denomination, and so you just dress up As someone from that denomination

28:58

And then just vent away. It's a brilliant Therapeutic system That you've given to the world

29:04

See, you've just told everyone My secret. See, it's not That I'm nice.

29:09

People think I'm nice I'm not. I'm getting it all out In comedic expression It's a huge passive aggressive ministry

29:16

That you have going on here That is just caught like It's caught like wildfire

29:23

Everybody's on board with it It's genius I have nothing but respect for it I love it

29:28

Passive aggressive. Oh my goodness I haven't thought about that But I'm going to have to It's a huge passive aggressive ministry

29:37

Oh my goodness Did you guys see my conversation With the IFB pastors?

29:43

I don't know if you saw that Yeah, I did see that That was fun. It's hard It's just sitting and kindly being called a heretic

29:51

And just sitting here And I'm just smiling Yep, say what you want to say Deep down, and you've

29:57

I know it's a little off topic But you've pretty much been unapologetic Siding with White and those other guys

30:03

I've called you several times on this issue before Considering where we live This always comes up But not being a

30:10

KJV onlyist And then being in a room full of people Who are not only KJV only But believe you to be in danger of heresy

30:18

For going with any other version Outside of the King James Version That was a little

30:23

Daniel in the Lion's Den depiction When I was watching it How you handled that Well, to their credit

30:30

Everybody stayed nice Even when they were saying I was a heretic They were at least nice about it So sweet Ran away

30:40

But there is something I had on my mind In regard to this question

30:46

Of pastors and wives And this is going to go back To the question of Ministry offices

30:53

Because We know that the Pastoral letters 1st and 2nd

30:59

Timothy and Titus specifically Address the roles of pastors The qualifications

31:05

Of ministers And there's a part that has always been A point of Question for me

31:12

And it's not that I don't have my own answer But I'm always interested to hear Other pastors' answers on this

31:18

Because we all have to address Questions when they're brought to us And Our church has

31:27

Male elders And male deacons We do not have a female diaconate

31:32

However, I do know At John MacArthur's church and other churches They would see 1st

31:38

Timothy 3 Verse 11 where it says The pastors and the ESV, their wives In some translations say women

31:46

And we know the word guneh Can be translated either as women Or their women or their wives

31:51

So we understand there's an underlying reason So when that Verse is brought up And people say

31:59

Okay, here's where women deacons come into play That's fine If that's a position someone wants to take

32:05

It's not the position I take But if that's a position that someone takes MacArthur position I'm not going to argue that But here's where my question comes in And if you guys are one who takes it

32:16

As women deacons, that's fine You can explain that But if you take it as their wives

32:21

As the ESV translates it In referring then That they are

32:27

The antecedent to that pronoun Would be the deacons

32:33

Why is it that we are given Qualifications for deacons' wives

32:38

And not qualifications For pastors' wives And I know my answer

32:44

But I don't want to go first And we'll see if we all have the same answer Or maybe a different answer And I'll share mine if it's functionally different Than what you guys come up with So go first Whoever wants to go first Nobody's excited

33:02

I'll start the cat among the pigeons I suppose So I I'll put it this way

33:08

I tentatively agree With MacArthur's position And I say tentatively simply because I've done some study into the issue

33:17

But not enough for me To be Willing to die on that hill necessarily

33:22

So to give some context even in our church Which is pretty small We just appointed two deacons and both of them are men

33:30

And I did get people ask me what my thoughts were I said look this is tentatively where I'm at I've not had an opportunity to teach this

33:37

To our congregation even And so I told them look for now

33:42

I am On the side of what I think is very Clear in scripture which is Men are called to that office

33:48

And that's what we're going to practice here When I have had in my opinion the proper Time to study this out

33:55

And to land conclusively I may Take a different view and I may bring that to our congregation

34:01

But I do think There's something I wouldn't again put my feet down hard And say yes

34:08

I think 100 % is Teaching this but I do think there is something To be said for the fact that there isn't a mention

34:13

About the elders Wife in 1 Timothy 3 that is said About deacons wives Or women if you take that view

34:22

I do think there is Something there I just haven't In my own conscience been able to Settle the issue to where I can say

34:29

I have a Firm conviction about that I think that's very fair brother and I appreciate that Yeah absolutely

34:35

I don't know where Keith lands on this I really don't because Keith and I have never talked about it

34:41

I think that you I think it's smart in some ways to have Caregivers That are women

34:49

Ministering to women Specifically in certain situations I just think there's a lot that we could talk about Extensively when it comes to variables

34:56

That we too are We're elder council Which are just men And then we have a diaconate

35:03

But the only men In that diaconate Only the men have been ordained as deacons

35:09

But there are women serving in a diaconate Role there And so I think when you look at 1 Timothy 3 11

35:16

You see according to certain interpretations That Paul is referring not to deacons wives But to women who serve as deacons

35:23

And if it's interpreted as women Who serve as deacons The use of the word likewise in verse 8 could suggest

35:29

That that group of leaders In addition to elders and deacons Which is why it's there and not

35:35

Not in the elders text Specifically That's a suggestion I'm with Kofi I haven't given that too much thought

35:43

I don't know where I'd land I probably agree more with MacArthur's interpretation I just think that that's a good practical way

35:51

Of demonstrating the offices In a body of believers Especially when you get to pastoral ministry

35:57

And safe pastoral ministry I will add That the reason I think this has gotten so skewed

36:03

In current cultural settings Specifically ours, Keith Is because deacons have been

36:09

Given the place of elders Unjustifiably and without qualification So the reason

36:14

We make our own messes And we want to sit here and talk forever About how to get out of these messes

36:20

Is when there is And I know we can agree with this There are elders given to the church Instead of a

36:26

CEO Ladder type of pastoring Where the deacons are then Called in to be the yes men

36:32

Good old boys Who can sit in the chair and start the boards And lead as chairman And act like they are fellow pastors and elders

36:41

And certainly meet some of those Moral qualifications In high character I've met some of the highest characters I've ever met

36:46

In the church are deacons So I'm not squashing the importance Of the caregiving office

36:51

They are leading servants But when we mess the offices up to such a degree

36:56

That the deacons are doing a job They should not be doing Then this sort of muddies up What we mean by qualifications

37:04

And who those qualifications can be given to And I think it drives us further away From a MacArthur type translation

37:10

Of 1 Timothy 3 .11 So that would be I think What plays against that interpretation

37:15

More than even hermeneutics I think it's cultural In a lot of ways Yeah and I would agree with you

37:23

Adam Particularly on the cultural aspect Of where we are I mean Kofi you're in Oregon Have you always lived sort of north

37:32

And obviously not always I mean I know you're From a different country But while you've been in America have you always lived

37:39

In the northern part of America or have you ever lived In the south? Oh yeah my entire time Has been in the Pacific Northwest Oh okay alright

37:46

So I know that I've never Lived north of the I guess the

37:51

Mason -Dixon line Whatever they want to call it, I've always lived as I'm a southern boy, I've always been a southern boy So the culture that Adam's talking about I mean

37:59

I'm steeped in it I've never lived more than 20 miles From where I was born, I was born in University Hospital I still live within 20 miles of University Hospital That's where I've always lived

38:10

And so this is the culture That I grew up in and I know that within Within my growing up church culture

38:17

Deacon was just a man That was like it was a man thing And so when someone

38:22

Provides a MacArthur response Of Well there can also

38:28

Be a role of deacon for women There's an automatic sort of visceral Reaction to that because of what

38:34

Adam Had said and that is that Deacons have been seen as leaders Specifically as in the

38:40

Position of it was the Pastor and the deacons right there was one man Pastor and then there was these deacons there wasn't

38:46

A board of elders it was you know The deacons ran the show But I do

38:52

Want to step back and I want to sort of give Another option of What I may think Paul may be doing here

38:58

As just my thoughts and I'm completely open To being wrong on this because I think

39:03

This is something that as both of you have said There's a lot of nuance here that has to be considered The word likewise and The fact that gune can mean women or wives

39:12

Or whatever there's a lot that can be Discussed here. I do think that There is a distinction

39:18

Between what can be shared Between a Duty of a deacon with His wife versus a duty of a deacon

39:26

Or a pastor with his wife The duty of the deacon Can have

39:32

Something and this is the way we treat it At our church is the deacons Are men but their wives

39:38

Are welcome to And encouraged to participate In their ministry in a way

39:44

That the wives of elders can't Participate in the ministry that we do And I think what you guys

39:50

Said especially About there's certain things that women just Do better with other women

39:55

When it comes to certain ministries there's certain things That women can provide To other women that is a service

40:01

A deacon acting role and if you Wanted to call that woman a deaconess In the way Phoebe was called a deaconess

40:07

I think I would probably be okay with that If that was the way we were using that term As a servant of the church

40:12

But I think where I would draw a line is I would say I don't think it's an ordained office And I don't know that it is with MacArthur I'd have to look up how they do it if they actually

40:21

Ordain women deacons or if they just recognize That they're women who are gifted with service But we would say that it's

40:27

Particularly a man who is in The role of deacon that his wife Would have within that role

40:33

A role of service alongside Of him that would be unique to that that would Not function in the role of elder because My wife can't preach alongside of me

40:41

My wife is not going to do that My wife is, there's certain things that she's not She's not going to come to elders meetings

40:47

And make policy decisions for the church Alongside of me whereas a man Who is a deacon his wife can serve alongside

40:53

Of him in almost every way that he does In a way that's unique to her So I think that's a nuanced way of looking

40:59

At it and perhaps the reason why Paul Is addressing the wives of deacons here And that's my kind of strange

41:05

But odd but still I think possible interpretation I think that's actually pretty

41:11

Compatible. I don't see Those two things as As having to live in two separate

41:17

Universes. I think There's a lot to be said about a deacon And his wife being called to the role

41:23

Of being leading servants in the church Versus an elder And his wife both being

41:29

The servant leaders for the entire congregation I think that That's apples and oranges for anyone who's lived

41:35

A certain amount of time or spent a certain amount of time In a church setting. You know that those Functions are completely different But still in the same ballpark

41:43

So I wouldn't have a problem with that Or really MacArthur's We do not ordain anyone who is

41:49

A part of the deaconate So there's a recognition And then there is

41:55

It's done through leadership. We ordain elders And I think again This sort of circles back to the reason

42:01

Why you even know of deacon Ordinations And then pastors who are on the

42:07

Payroll preaching a view of a call Is because of certain very culturally Specific setups

42:13

For the offices in Evangelical churches. So I think I think what you said is

42:19

Very well could be the interpretation Yeah and I Said the word ordain for deacon

42:25

But you're right. We actually We use the word appoint versus ordain And it's only because of Yeah Kofi do you guys ordain deacons or do you

42:35

What language do you use? So when we Selected Two men who function as deacons in our church

42:42

I was very clear to say that we are appointing These men and that we believe the Language of ordination is

42:49

Primarily for the Elder office. Amen Well getting back to our wives

42:56

And I know that was a little bit of a departure But I wanted to make this sort of a you know I don't always get to talk to pastors

43:02

Guys as educated as you guys So I love to ask good hard questions And put you on the spot because that's fun

43:09

But the The We're when we talk About our wives and we talk about the ministry

43:16

That they do to support us I want you to just take a minute and Because this is oh by the

43:22

Way did y 'all know this was pastors appreciation Pastors wife appreciation month did y 'all even know that Not until you

43:28

Said that at the end of your Video so yeah Saved me a huge Amount of trouble my wife wouldn't have given me

43:36

That trouble but there would have been some ladies in the church After a Sunday have been like I hope You know I hope you took your wife out for a wonderful Dinner it's best they would have known they know

43:44

When like pancake day is like they Know everything and so That's that you saved me from that Conversation I didn't

43:53

Know it existed until a week ago Not even a week ago when I found out It existed my wife and I Immediately began writing the script for That video because it was her

44:03

Friend you know Jennifer Bradshaw David's wife She she just mentioned that somebody had told

44:09

Her that march is pastors wife appreciation Month and I said well let's Let's make a video

44:14

A pastors wife denomination video And so I wrote the script and I wrote it with Jennifer that well we call them

44:20

Jen squared Because two Jennifer's yeah So we wrote I wrote it with the two of them in mind And we we went to her house we filmed it in Jen's house which is great because at one point

44:29

When she's playing the Presbyterian there's a There's a single malt scotch behind her It's only it's it's not really visible

44:35

Real well but it's behind her you know because the Presbyterian you know they They they enjoy their single malt

44:40

Scotch but Anyway but we found Out about this and I just said you know what

44:47

I want to come on at the End of the video I want to mention this because Does your Church actually recognize

44:54

Pastor appreciation month which is in October do you guys have has that been Something that you've experienced

44:59

Kofi No okay Adam have you Had no

45:05

I really I don't I guess this is a Kind of trapping me

45:11

I feel like this is gonna Oh I'm sorry No no no Just kidding

45:16

I think so I Didn't want to say that they don't do anything For me because there's like you know 400 people there's

45:23

There's someone who gives you a Gift card because they know They've been a Baptist long enough they're like oh

45:30

You know what it's October I think we're supposed to Do something special for you and so we've Had a lot of sweet people gift us

45:36

During that month we don't recognize It like we don't have a part of the Service where like someone

45:42

Gets tasked to bring pastors up and Be like let's give them all a round of applause For being ordained and this

45:48

Isn't something we broadcast on our social network So I would probably agree with Kofi It's not anything we would we celebrate

45:54

But there are a couple people who might go Hey here's take your wife out For dinner here's something and I didn't want

45:59

To speak against them because then you know the Gift cards would stop that's what I meant By you trapping me

46:05

I'm doing this to save face this is a Financial decision you put me in Well For me like it's

46:13

Kind of been like not every year Like I remember specifically when Aaron Bell was our worship leader now that's

46:20

Been several years ago and I know Kofi you don't Know him but he's a fellow pastor in the area He was he was our worship leader he

46:26

Went to Southern and he came back And became the pastor of a church it's actually Almost exactly between Adam and me

46:31

So like he's like he's like right Between where we are in a place called Yulee and Aaron One year he

46:40

Like raised money and he Sent my wife and I to the Ligonier conference And he did all this stuff for pastors

46:45

Appreciation and but that was Many years ago but I remember that specifically I Thought it was very sweet But in general it sort of comes and goes

46:53

And there are people who like you said they'll give you a gift card But it's not something we do we don't do a big Churchwide we're going to appreciate

46:59

I always tell people I feel like I'm Appreciated if they come and listen to the word I feel like I'm appreciated if they continue

47:06

To support my family as they do All the time the church shows me their appreciation By by loving me

47:12

Every every time we get Together I I'm thankful So like I don't need that but I Do think

47:19

I think it's interesting that Most of the people I have talked to Never heard of pastors wife appreciation

47:26

And it might just be something new it might Just be something that somebody made up every Holiday is made up except for like like the

47:32

Real important ones like Christmas and Easter But everything Is made up right so we make up Father's Day we make up Mother's Day I mean 200 years ago there was no

47:41

Father's Day Mother's Day Right that's a that's a that's a holiday that came Into being and so I just said you know what

47:48

I do think it's worth Stopping and saying That the men behind or excuse me

47:54

The women behind The men who are preaching the women behind The men who are up there are worth

48:00

Being celebrated Simply for the fact that they put up With the biggest centers in the church us

48:06

Like they put up with the big maybe not the biggest Centers but the biggest I'm I definitely am The largest center in my church

48:13

Oh come on that's A good joke I got it Man that was great it was good

48:20

So I so as we were getting Close to the hour mark here I want to ask both Of you to simply say something

48:26

About your bride I'm sure it's easy You love your brides you're thankful for Them say something that Is unique to her that you

48:34

Appreciate and I think that would Just be good because hopefully they'll hear this and be Encouraged by it and And I think that would be a good way

48:42

For us to round out this conversation So whoever wants to go first and I'll Go last well thank you for giving

48:48

Me the opportunity to do that Keith because I could I could talk about Amy Jo Forever she is my biggest

48:54

Interest and I will Say too it's not just that she joined Me in ministry

49:00

But I have I have Run every decision Ministry related as far as our

49:06

Career like walking into this choosing To do this vocationally accepting the Calling all of this has been done

49:12

With Amy Jo and Present and and giving me Where God's leading her or What the

49:18

Holy Spirit is doing In her life and and how he's kind of Moving both of us We immediately had things in common

49:26

Like wanting to homeschool our kids and wanting To have kids and she we Went to seminary and we both got jobs

49:32

She's been nothing but supportive And she's incredibly genuinely kind I always tell people people that She loves better than I do which

49:40

Is always a weird statement coming from your pastor Where it's just the sense that it's Easier for her it seems to just Genuinely love people the way

49:47

You're supposed to love people From where how she's Lived her life evidence of her life and So she's given that love to our kids

49:56

To our church she's just an incredibly Loving wise Person who it would

50:02

Be completely ignorant of me Not to lean on her strengths And understand her talents and Showcase them and express thankfulness

50:09

For them Amy Jo's the reason She's the reason I got my Life in order and it's certainly

50:15

The reason that I went into Ministry I was not headed for that at all And so I think that that can all be attributed

50:23

To the Holy Spirit to the Lord To our Father God and him Using my wife

50:29

For what we believe to be his purposes And his will so that's Just a short version

50:34

I could go on and on But I'm more than thankful For her I think I think to be a healthy Pastor you should have a healthy

50:41

Amount of thanks for your wife I think that that they're definitely Related Amen brother coffee

50:50

Sure I'll do my best not to get emotional about this because It does hit home for me what I'm about to Say So we planted our church in 2019

51:00

And If anyone listening church planting Not for the faint of heart I'll just put it that way

51:08

We've had Pastoral we had a pastoral transition A year in we've had

51:13

A good number of people Leave praise the Lord a good number of people join But you know

51:19

And we've had we've had some losses of Relationships and losses Friendships as a result of You know what we've been trying to do here

51:27

In southern Oregon And I Really couldn't do what I do without my wife because Every time

51:35

That something has happened just by nature The way I am things hit me very hard And There have been moments where I've wanted to walk

51:42

Away but you know what I don't know if this is what God would have me to do You know I could

51:48

This is affecting my home I don't know if this is what I want to do and This is the thing

51:54

I love most about my wife She just has a spine of steel And More than once She has just said

52:01

This happened on Sunday where I was Unhappy about a situation that happened And you know my wife could see

52:08

I was unhappy about it and I just confessed I was like I get worried that You've lost a few friends because of decisions

52:14

I've made and I don't regret the Decisions I might regret the effects And she just looked me dead in the eye

52:20

And said Kofi when we got together You told me you wanted to be in ministry

52:25

And I prepared myself for that reality I'm fine And I'm like I know you might be fine

52:34

I'm not fine with that But no Kofi I'm fine And just the way that God Has gifted her

52:41

That's not to say that she's not at all She's incredibly tender hearted

52:46

Incredibly sympathetic But God has just given her a resilience That I honestly could not

52:52

Do pioneer church planting Without her And so I'm incredibly thankful for her

52:58

And just the resilience And the perseverance that God has given her To where she's willing to count the cost

53:05

And is like no this is I believe God has called you to do this Kofi I want to support you in that And hey if it costs us it costs us

53:13

But I could not do what I do without her That was beautiful brother

53:18

And I remember years ago I met A Presbyterian minister

53:23

And He had been in ministry for Had to have been 40 -50 years

53:29

I mean I was new to the ministry And I was going through a very difficult time And my wife sat with his wife

53:35

For an hour and I sat with him for an hour They didn't know us we just visited their church We were on vacation we visited their church

53:41

Afterwards he came up and introduced himself to me And he said you're a pastor aren't you I said yeah how do you know He said you were paying attention during the sermon

53:48

I thought that was so funny I thought that was a great answer He said I just could tell

53:53

By the way you were paying attention You seem to be somebody who knows A little about what we're doing here

53:59

And I just thought that was a funny answer But my wife and I my wife talked to her Wife and one of the things she said was

54:06

You know it's really hard To have friends because of the Nature of ministry and people leave your life

54:11

So easily and People walk away so easily and And what you just said really just rung in my

54:17

Heart because you know There have been a lot A lot of times

54:22

Where we've watched that heartbreak and it's with our kids And I would tell you this Brother because I know your children are

54:29

Small It's hard and it's one of the Hard things is watching your kids have their

54:35

Hearts get broken over a friend leaving Because it's not their friend's choice Their parents are leaving or whatever

54:41

It can be really tough But praise God for your wife Praise God that she sees that As part of her ministry that she understands

54:49

It's a hard life and People do leave and people Walk away but praise be to God that she's standing with you

54:57

Absolutely. I think that was Such a great answer and in Terms of eternal perspective to just praise

55:03

God for wives with a Strong sense Of what they're called to do

55:09

And to what life they're called To live towards and so to Me that was when you said resilience that Hung real true.

55:16

I also Love that I went first and then you gave That answer and now I sound like an Idiot chump on this thing

55:23

And Kofi Sounds like freaking Idris Elba just sitting

55:29

There, you know, giving Like this beautiful Let me pause you for a second

55:35

Prejudice answer. She bewitched Me heart and soul and I'm sitting there going She's loving, she's

55:41

Nice sometimes Oh man. So just to pause you on that Point. So you mentioned

55:47

Idris Elba. He and I are actually from the same Part of East London. Unbelievable Oh that's great.

55:53

Yeah He's from Hackney which is the part of East London I'm from Yeah well my grandfather Tried to steal a train so We all have

56:02

Connections that we're proud of And not proud of Kofi. You don't have To rub it in my

56:07

Southern face I say that I say that out of just complete

56:13

Respect. The way you carry yourself Kofi It really shows How much you love your wife in all seriousness

56:19

That was just a really beautiful answer No thank you. And I think Other pastors actually

56:25

Needed to hear And pastors wives need to hear That appreciation

56:31

Of resilience. Like man So much can be said with just We know it's tough but we're going to do it together

56:37

We know it's tough but God's got us And we're going to do it together. I think just a lot Can be said for that Amen.

56:44

And I did Say I would go last and as I said now I've got to Go after that but I'll I'll say this.

56:50

Mine is In no way as articulate or as beautiful But I will say this

56:55

There's something to be said for knowing your wife Is on your team And knowing that she is never trying to Undermine what you're doing

57:02

But is always there to Encourage you. I remember the first day I met My wife. I met my wife

57:10

October 26 1997 It was the day we met And I remember

57:16

Looking at her. I remember what she was wearing I remember she was wearing a red shirt with blue jeans White tennis shoes and we ate at a

57:22

Ryan Steakhouse because her dad Took us to dinner because I was teaching her A magic trick and there's a long story behind that She was in a performing arts class.

57:29

She was An athlete. So I took Her Our dads worked together.

57:34

I was a professional magician It was kind of a weird thing. But anyhow I've never had

57:40

Anybody made me feel like They actually Genuinely cared about what

57:46

I was Doing and wanted to be a part of it As much as she did from the very moment I met her She genuinely cared

57:52

About me. What I was doing And at the time I was a magician. I was a 17 year old professional magician which

57:58

Sounds like it's not even a thing. It was a thing And that's what I wanted to do with my life And she was like fine with that.

58:03

Like she was Like fine with marrying a magician Not the first day we met but like Like I didn't get saved until The year we got married.

58:12

The year it was actually After we got married. But my wife has Always been so supportive

58:17

And loved me and Truly been on my team And I'm so Thankful for that.

58:24

And when that became a Ministry. When that became our life was Following Christ it didn't change

58:30

She's still That same person who supports me And loves me. She looks at me the same way she did

58:35

That day. And I'm Just thankful to have somebody who looks at me That way and who

58:40

I know I always have that person On my team. And like People come and people go.

58:47

And that's what we're Talking about Kofi. People come in in our lives In and out of our lives. But having Her there being

58:53

Now I'm gonna cry But man I'm thankful that God gave us three wonderful wives

58:59

And that is all His glory. All His grace And all of His mercy.

59:04

And I'm glad we had An opportunity to talk about that today Because What better thing other than just the

59:11

Salvation that we have in our Lord could we talk About than the blessing we have in The wives that He's given us

59:17

Well gentlemen as we close the show I want to give the opportunity. I know Adam you have a Podcast and Kofi I know you

59:23

Do ministry and outside of your church Writings and things like that. Do you have A podcast? I wasn't sure about that It's on hiatus but we'll be

59:31

In your timing soon. Okay Well take the next minute as we Close. Tell everyone how

59:36

If they want to get in contact with you. If they're close By and want to join your church or visit with you Tell them about that.

59:42

I'll let you both have a minute And then we're gonna close out the show. Adam You go first.

59:48

Well I'm pastoring at Amelia Baptist Church In Amelia Island, Fernanda Beach, Florida Area. We'd love to see you.

59:53

We have services at 9am And 1045am We also podcast

59:59

The We Bear Witness podcast We really have enjoyed Doing that. We've had a lot of Really cool people on recently

01:00:06

So you can find us anywhere Podcasts are platformed as well as our YouTube channel At We Bear Witness. We'd love to see you subscribe

01:00:13

And yeah We really enjoy it. So thank you for checking That out. I've been meaning to do a parody

01:00:20

Of your show called She Bear Witness About Elijah. I think that would be funny The She Bear Witness I just haven't had a chance to do it yet But it's coming

01:00:29

I can't wait man Alright sorry Kofi Go ahead

01:00:36

I was supposed to follow that I know it's so silly It's so funny Well if anyone

01:00:43

Well I think the primary way to catch up with me is on social media So I'm on Twitter A Kofi Cup So a

01:00:50

Kofi Cup. I'm also on Facebook Instagram, all the usual places If you want to know more about our church Redeemer Bible Fellowship You can go to our website which is

01:00:59

RedeemerMedford .org So RedeemerMedford .org All of our sermons are up there

01:01:04

You can catch up with what's happening at the church And hey If you're ever in the southern

01:01:10

Oregon area You're welcome to join us. We have services At 10 .15 on Sundays And yeah we'd love to have you with us

01:01:17

I just love that it's RedeemerMedford Because my first name is Medford So it just sounds like It just sounds funny

01:01:24

Like RedeemerMedford No my name is Keith but thank you No that's wrong Well thank you both for being a part of the show

01:01:33

And I really appreciate it I want to thank you guys For being a part of your Calvinist Podcast Remember please

01:01:39

If you want to get in touch with me you can do so By sending me a message at calvinistpodcast At gmail .com

01:01:45

If you're interested in our church you can go to sgfcjacks .org And again If you like the video hit a thumbs up If you didn't like it hit the thumbs down button twice