What are the Expectations of a Pastor's Wife?

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March is Pastor's Wife Appreciation month. In this episode, Keith welcomes Pastors Adam Page and Kofi Abu-Boahen to discuss the blessing of their wives and the (sometimes unfair) expectations laid upon them by the church.

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It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Boski Beers and boat rides, laughs till sunrise
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It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Boski He's not like most
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And hey guys, welcome to Your Calvinist podcast My name is Keith Boski and as always,
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I am your Calvinist I want to thank you for being a part of the show today And before I bring my guests in,
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I also want to remind you about 1689 Cigars This is not a paid sponsorship, but it is a friendship that I have with the guys over there
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And be able to go to 1689 Cigars and support the ministry over there of those guys Who are using great cigars to further the gospel of Christ Well, I have two gentlemen with me today, two pastors, two husbands, two fathers
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Who are going to, I'm going to bring in now And we're going to be talking about the subject of our wives
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Which could be dangerous, but I think it's going to be a lot of fun So I'm bringing on with me now
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Pastor Kofi from, he is in Medford Which is exciting because that is my first name and that's where his church is
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Medford, Oregon, right? And then Adam Page, who is the pastor
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One of the pastors at Amelia Baptist Church in Amelia Island, Florida Gentlemen, thank you both for being on your
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Calvinist podcast with me today Thanks Keith Thanks for having me
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Yes sir, and I'd like to begin with Kofi If you would, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from Your ministry, how long you've been a pastor
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And just give us a little overview of who you are and what you do Sure, so Kofi Dubois and I am 33
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I live in Medford, Oregon, I've lived here since 2017 Moved here from the
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UK, which as well was born and raised Been married to my wife Laura since 2017 And we have two kids,
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Gareth, who is going to be four in May And little Rosemary, who is just under a month old
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And I'm the pastor at Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Central Point Which is the next town over from us
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Awesome, now Kofi, when you say you're the pastor Are you the only pastor there or do you guys have a plurality of elders?
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How does that function in your church? Currently the solo pastor, praying that that won't be the case for long
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Okay, I understand the situation there for sure Alright, and Brother Adam, my good friend
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You're returning to the show and I'm thankful for that Just shows that I didn't scare you off the first time
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And you're here with me in Jacksonville Well, you're not in Jacksonville, you're near Jacksonville Tell us about where you're at and who you are
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I'm from Jacksonville And do these names that show up in the blue bubbles Are they for everybody to see right now?
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Like they can see them? Everybody's going to see it I put A -Train as a joke
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Thinking that would get me into StreamYard And apparently that's how I'm going I'm going by A -Train for this podcast for the first time ever
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I think that's great I'll put a different background up Now we're a little bit closer That's perfect I hope it catches
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I was born and raised in Jacksonville I only lived my life in another city
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For three other years And that was in Louisville, Kentucky When I was attending my Southern Seminary For my
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Master's of Divinity degree But I've been at Amelia Baptist Church For ten years So right out of seminary, it was the first church we had
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And we're still there I'm the preaching pastor now We have a plurality of elders That is an elder council Made up of four non -vocational
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Rotating elders who are ordained by our church And then two other Vocational pastors now
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To help with some of the growth Pastor Neil who's been here for 35 Years And Pastor Forrest Who just got hired
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Me and my wife Amy Jo have been married For 14 years this summer
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And we have four children We have a 10 -year -old Six -year -old and five -year -old
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Girls, Ellie Jo, Teagan and Zoe And then we have a little monster Man who's a two -year -old
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Deacon, he just turned two I think, yeah March 23rd
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So yeah, we have four and it's loud and busy And fun But everyone's doing alright, we're doing okay
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Well good, I do have to ask you And Kofi Because your kids are so small
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I don't know if you will have experienced this yet You said you have a boy and a girl, right Kofi? A boy and a girl
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Well with Adam, you have three girls And then a boy Do you notice the difference yet?
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Insane, it's insane The fact that anyone's having this conversation If there is a
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Difference between male or female It's they're either being ignorant Or unaware or they haven't experienced it
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But My daughters There was an entirely different world as girl dad
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And little man has completely Thrown a wrench in everything And I mean this in a wonderfully blessed way
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We consider our children blessings But I've never had So he's our first cat scan
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I've never had a kid that required a cat scan already Under the age of two He is actively trying to pulverize himself
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At all costs All the time He's jumping off of things, he's climbing things I've had to put locks on so many things
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And that was just never the case With my girls, ever And so it's a totally different world
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Which you know, you have So many kids Keith You're like what, three? I'm working on Trying to start my own race
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So many children You're growing your Church the old fashioned way
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That's right We have six, my wife and I this year Married 25 years And we have two adult children
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And then we have four That are Still kids My two adult children are adopted though My wife and I were together for 12 years
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Before we had our first positive pregnancy test So we were married Half the time we've been married
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Without having any natural children We had two adopted children Thought that was what God had for us
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And we were happy with that We thought it was going to be the Foskey four And it was the Foskey four for a long time And you know my daughter very well
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Because she used to come to your Bible study And that's Ashley, she's my oldest, she's 25 My son
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Cody's 22 He's in the Air Force, lives in Germany And then we have Hope, Justice, Faith And Theodore And what you just said about Knowing the difference between boys and girls
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Not even a joke, I mean it's absolutely The emotional range in our house
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Is just amazing And anyone who says That there's really no difference
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Between boys and girls Is just out of their minds And that leads me to I guess the first question
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And get you guys both to a pint on this When we talk about ministry When we talk about men and women in ministry
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I think all three of us would agree But I want to make sure Out of the gate, we would all agree
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That there are ministry positions That are for men that are not for women Would we all affirm that?
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Yeah, correct Absolutely And would you, I would say First of all, obviously the position of Elder, pastor, which
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I think is Functionally the same role even though They may be vocational, non -vocational As you were saying
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Adam, like in our church We have vocational, non -vocational, still the position Of elder In that position we would say women are not
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To serve in that position Correct? That's right Kofi, we're good?
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I heartily affirm that Okay, yeah, I assume so Again, I don't want to get halfway through The conversation and you say, but wait
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Because again I've known of you for a long time But we've never spoke, so I want to make sure I don't want to put words in your mouth,
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Kofi For sure, also on that With the subject of This whole men and women in ministry
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And the differences And what our wives do and what our wives are expected to do Just yesterday I put out a video
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And I'm not sure, this won't go out right away So this will be a few days from now But just yesterday from the recording
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I posted a video of A pastor's wife meeting And one of the ones in there
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Was a man, it was me playing the Methodist Saying my wife's my pastor And then today I posted the statement
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There is no such thing as a pastor's husband Right, that's not a thing Because that would mean a woman would be a pastor
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And I've already got the negatives I've already got the people kind of hitting hard I even had one guy who wrote
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A message saying, Eve was a man Because she came out of a man Which is the weirdest thing
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I've ever read People are weird and people put weird stuff on Twitter But we have to affirm
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God's design Of men and women And He created them, male and female And He created them with different purposes
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But the The big question That we often come at When we have this
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Is okay, well where are the lines In ministry? And often our wives are
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Sometimes seen As the extension of us And sometimes people even treat them
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Like they're sort of pseudo -pastors And some churches they do call them co -pastors Which of course we would never affirm that But it's almost like when the church
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Hires us, they're hiring Her as well And I completely
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Reject that, I don't think that church Gets my wife the same way They get me, but have you guys
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Experienced that in your churches Where there's, and again Not looking to call anybody out or anything
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But have you ever experienced, even if not in your ministry Maybe seeing it in someone else's Where a pastor's wife is being expected
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To have almost the same role Of Involvement and duty
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And expectation that the pastor has Is that something that you guys Have experienced and I'll let
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Whichever one of you wants to go first on that Sure, so in You know, in My experience,
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I have an interesting perspective On this because I grew up in a pastor's home So my dad
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Is a Pentecostal pastor Has been pretty much my entire life So I grew up In a context where In my opinion, unfortunately
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My own mother was very much Expected to be An extension of My dad's ministry
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Plus have her own, essentially And I saw kind of growing up There was definitely this expectation
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That, and sometimes I think my dad bought into it I remember him telling us as kids
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God didn't just call me to ministry He called us to ministry And so there was this expectation
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That we're all going to be in ministry In some way, shape, or form And my mom's dad's wife
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Of course, would be Very much expected to be that And so I've seen that growing up And As I entered into a pastoral ministry
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Which is its own fun story For another time, I suppose I made a very conscious effort not to foster that Because As I'm sure we'll get into In our conversation,
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I'm very much Convinced that my wife's primary ministry Is to our home I don't necessarily
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Believe that that means She must be involved in the life of our church She is, and she's very happy to do so But no, definitely have seen that expectation
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And I do think it can get problematic I'm sure we'll get into that As the conversation unfolds
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Absolutely Alright, without a shadow of a doubt I completely understand
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Where Kofi's coming from here And then culturally have seen The two -for -one sale
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Pastor -pastor wife Inferred Without anyone even saying anything to you
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Until you're in the room Getting the interview done Let's say you're just out of seminary
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And you're looking for churches And they're interviewing you to be the new pastor of their church And they will immediately launch into Well, what can your wife provide?
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What are some of your wife's strengths In this position? And the position they're referring to is not a separate Vocational position for her
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I think sometimes that can naturally occur later As it has with my wife As a children's ministry director
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And really not even that She's an assistant in the children's ministry department But all of that has worked itself out later
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It was not something that was Negotiated at the table The Emilia Baptist Church was incredibly gracious In realizing the difference between hiring me
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And hiring my wife But because of previous interviews At other churches I made that pretty clear right out in front
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That this is something we had seen I've been in churches where The pastor was the senior pastor
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And his wife was on the board of trustees And that led to all kinds of Issues and problems within the church
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We've seen We've seen pastors' wives Completely withdraw from the church altogether
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Taking this to the other End of the degree of the spectrum And saying, you hired my husband We may not even come on Sundays If we have a headache
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And move that way entirely And so I think you kind of have to start with As Christians, you're all called
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To a ministry And so there's going to be some of these things that happen naturally There's going to be gifts and talents
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I'm sure that we'll get into in our conversation That our wives have and can contribute But yes, certainly in our culture
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There's an expectancy there that shouldn't be Of hiring both of us At the price of one
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And that really probably needs to be corrected Any chance we get Sure.
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I know one of the things that happens With my wife She'll sometimes see
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Other churches where other pastors' wives Are doing certain things And that will sometimes make her feel like She should be doing something
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Like, you know, Keith, I never learned to play the piano Right? And look here All these people, all these pastors' wives
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Play the piano, right? I'm not running a women's ministry And look at this woman here and she's doing this
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I think what you just said, Adam Is important We're not saying That a woman can't have a ministry
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But that doesn't necessarily become the Absolute expectation for the pastor's wife
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And every woman is in a Different place in their life Like you said, Kofi, you have a one -month -old
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Right? I mean, your wife's role Is going to be surrounding That place
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We have an 18 -month -old Adam, you have a two -year -old and he's your first boy Right? You said two, right?
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Two years old Right This is where their Life has to begin
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In that ministry Because if she's not ministering well to the home Then I'm not
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Going to be able to do what I need to do In ministry either because I'm going to be constantly Worried about what's going on at home
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One of the blessings that I have is I don't have to Worry about the house I'm not saying
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I don't contribute, I do Obviously, but I know that my wife Has her understanding
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By supporting me And doing the things that I do And she does what needs to be done
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And there's a great balance there And I'm thankful for our church, and that's why I said I'm not here saying, oh man, the church
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Is treating my wife I'm glad that my church treats my wife very well So I didn't do this podcast as an airing of Grievances, you know, this isn't a
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Seinfeld What's it called? Festivus Festivus, thank you!
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See, Kofi, now we're best friends Because you knew that So it's not an airing of grievances
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I'm thankful that this is An area where I feel like my church Has not mistreated us, my church has
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Treated us very well There is another side to it though, and this goes Back to what you said,
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Adam, and I'll get you guys To comment on this When it comes to the Interview process
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I do think there is a sense in which A man's wife should be Supportive of what he does
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And therefore she can be part of the interview And the conversation Not what can she contribute
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But does she support what you're doing And is she on board with this Because I think if a man's wife isn't
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On board with it, that would be a Pretty big red flag, would you guys agree with that? Yeah, I would certainly agree
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I think that is a reflection of the marriage You're not going to stop being married just because You're on the clock as a pastor
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Part of that is she is our Accountability partner, she is our Helpmate, she is the mother of our
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Children, she is our wife She is the one we are to have the Most intimate relationship with I haven't met anyone who's able to I've met a lot of people who are
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Able to compartmentalize, I haven't met a lot of Pastors who are able to compartmentalize To the degree
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Where they are able to Come home and never Mention anything that goes on in the ministry
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Or in the pastorate with their wife Just keep those worlds completely separate I don't even think that's necessarily healthy So I think that there is
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There are tons of stuff they should be Supportive in, it is a job I would even argue that It is a calling,
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I think that's been hijacked To mean some corny things But I think that when you Meet a wife who
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I think Speaking of my own wife I think she meets so many of those
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Proverbs 31 characteristics of a Husband, things over time that God Has made and revealed and Shapened in her, and I believe
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That she has great things to add to our ministry But nothing is expected of her In a vocational sense, that doesn't mean
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That she should be In disagreement with Anything that her husband is doing or deciding
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To do in the church, and if she is, I think Her husband should listen to it But I think this is one of those problems
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You see whenever you get to a church Where it's the husband and The wife are co -pastors,
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I don't Know if you've had this experience, whenever I see that Number one, it's already really a bad idea In the term of pastor
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But it's often pretty much just Him listening And being led by his wife, almost
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Nine times out of ten, that is Just a woman leading the church and the husband's Sort of there to get the more conservative
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Tithers off their back That's sort of what I've kind of Grasped from it, at least from my third person
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Point of view, but that Is a dangerous situation. Your Wife can absolutely be your helpmate and still
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Have some disagreements with things that you're doing In ministry, but those things should be talked about And so support would be huge from a congregants
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Point of view Amen. Kofi, your thoughts On that? No, I would heartily affirm everything
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My brother just said At the end of the day When God calls us to ministry,
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He doesn't Call our wives in the same way That doesn't mean that she's not involved Doesn't mean we don't listen to the wisdom
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Of our wives. I regularly Will ask my wife's advice about things because You know, I think we can all say this
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As pastors and as men here You know, sometimes we miss things Sometimes we don't have the pulse on things
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The way that our wives do And so absolutely I want to hear the wisdom of my wife And at the same time
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I want to acknowledge That at the end of the day She's not the pastor of Redeemer Bible Fellowship Like I am
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You know, she's a member of the church I want her to be involved As much as any other member in our church
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But again, there's not a special role That she has I'm not trying to necessarily foster that understanding
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In the life of our congregation In unhealthy ways We're going to take a break here in just a second
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And I want to play our gospel presentation Which we do on our show But before we do that, I'm going to load you up for the next question
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So that you can be thinking about it You mentioned, Adam, about Sharing things with your wife It's impossible to compartmentalize
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Ministry completely But I do know that there are areas Where I feel like I do have to protect her
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And I do have to also protect the congregation In the sense that She can't know everything
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So where do you draw those lines? That's the question I want to ask And what areas does your wife know
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That you're going to draw those lines on? So we're going to take this break And we'll come back and talk about that in just a second Hey guys,
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I just want to quickly say Thank you for watching this episode And if you're enjoying it, please hit the thumbs up button
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By some bad news And the bad news is this That we are all sinners Sin is breaking
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To turn from our unbelief And trust in Him as Lord and Savior And if you've never done that I encourage you to do so today
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Now back to the show Alright brothers, thank you for your patience
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So when we talk about the Relationship that we have with our wives And what we share
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And what we don't I think there's some obvious things And maybe I'll just start with those
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And then we can dig down Into maybe more particulars But like if Brother Earl We don't have an
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Earl so I can say that If Brother Earl comes to me and says That he is struggling with a particular
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Sin in his life and he wants me to pray With him, pray for him And maybe even become some sort of accountability partner
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With him so that I can address that issue with him I would make sure That no one knew about that Unless it was something that affected the whole church
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If it was something that had to be brought to the elders or something I would make sure that stayed between Brother Earl and myself
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And would not be a part of the Conversation that I would have with my wife Because of Brother Earl's trust in me
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So I think that's one of the First initial things There has to be a line where my wife
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Knows, you know, there are Things that she just can't Know because Brother Earl trusts me
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Would you guys both affirm that As at least the initial line of Demarcation?
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Oh yeah, absolutely Yeah, absolutely What other areas do you think
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And I have some in my mind, but I want to hear from you guys What other areas do you think are Best that she not
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Have privy to? That's my little something to think about Yeah Well, I would throw this one in I think if there is a danger that You know,
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I think Romans 12 talks about Outdoing one another and showing honor If there is
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Something that I could tell my wife That would affect her ability To show honor to another believer I would be cautious Personally about that because I don't want
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Her perception of that person To become affected Again, not to say that my wife has this problem, but I'm keenly aware that Human nature being what it is
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There are some things you hear and that becomes The interpretive lens Through which you view a person
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And I would be very cautious about maybe You know, giving information
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That leads to that Now if she's observed something Independently of me, okay, fine, we may talk about it
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But, you know I would say issues Where the perception of someone
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Or the treatment of someone could Potentially be affected by what you've said I'd be very cautious personally
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In maybe sharing That kind of information with my wife Not because I don't trust her, but I don't want to Affect her ability to obey what
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I think is That very important biblical command That's really Insightful, Kofi And important Because, I mean, we all
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Would probably agree that there's people In our church that upset us at times And if we bring
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Home that frustration And share it with our wife, you know, hey I'm really frustrated with Brother Earl Again, I don't have an
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Earl, so Earl is my Avatar for all of my anger and frustration And sin today
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But if I come home and you say, Brother Earl really Angered me today because of thus And so, then that is
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In no way helping my wife to Love Brother Earl better And it's certainly bringing it to the
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Wrong person, because if I do have An issue with Brother Earl, I either need to bring it to him Or bring it to God, or perhaps bring it to the elders
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If it's a sin issue that needs To be dealt with, but ultimately It's not
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My wife's to carry, so I think That's a good point, Kofi You know, we want her to honor him
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So much as he is a brother So, very good thought Adam, add
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Something for us Absolutely, I think Kofi hit it out of the park With that understanding of protection
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Of our wife, we're their leader First, we're the head of our household First, even before our church, and so If there's anything that she is going to Know from us, number one
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The content matters, in other words The context of that content given, if it Was expressed to me to keep it confidential
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That is my first priority, is to Maintain honesty, that's something my wife's gonna Want me to do, if someone said, do not share this
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Information, please, with anyone And I think it's become so normal For a pastor to share pretty much every single
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Thing going on in the church with their Wife, with his wife Or their wives, if you look at pastors in the south
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Specifically, people will say And even your wife, please don't share this With even your wife, let this be, that's the first thing
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I'm gonna honor, is honesty And so that context, if there If that context isn't there, it is about Why would
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I need to share this Information, and can I Distinguish sharing this with my wife
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From something that's Helpful, that's something where she could add Or attribute or bring wisdom or discernment
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To the situation Versus, am I just venting and Complaining to her And not necessarily sharing it for anyone's well -being
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But simply because I'm weak And have to get this off my chest So that I can feel better About what
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I'm carrying, instead of bringing That to the Lord, first and foremost So I don't think it's necessarily Inherently wrong to share something
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That's weighing on you with your wife And there's also ways to do this without Giving away the entire
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Story, or giving every detail To a situation, but I think One thing I do, back to Kofi's answer
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Monitor, is If I'm struggling after hearing something That is tough to hear, which we've
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All been in that situation Something somebody's going to, and they Did the right thing by coming to us and sharing this with us
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So we could pray for them and walk it out with them And if I'm struggling With self -righteousness or viewing
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That person in a negative light or not being Able to minister to them effectively I am not going to hand that burden over To my wife.
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I think one thing We have to remember is that we're all pretty Fast to say, look, you didn't hire her You hired me
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And then what we do is we go home and we pretend We're co -pastors because We aren't going to the right accountability
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And we aren't walking through in the right manner So I think that's definitely something To think about. A protection of honor
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Was really a genius answer Yeah, and hey When I need to vent, I just call
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Adam I just call you You have your podcast for that Your podcast basically
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You just jump into character If you need to vent, it's typically about another Denomination, and so you just dress up As someone from that denomination
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And then just vent away. It's a brilliant Therapeutic system That you've given to the world
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See, you've just told everyone My secret. See, it's not That I'm nice.
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People think I'm nice I'm not. I'm getting it all out In comedic expression It's a huge passive aggressive ministry
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That you have going on here That is just caught like It's caught like wildfire
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Everybody's on board with it It's genius I have nothing but respect for it I love it
29:28
Passive aggressive. Oh my goodness I haven't thought about that But I'm going to have to It's a huge passive aggressive ministry
29:37
Oh my goodness Did you guys see my conversation With the IFB pastors?
29:43
I don't know if you saw that Yeah, I did see that That was fun. It's hard It's just sitting and kindly being called a heretic
29:51
And just sitting here And I'm just smiling Yep, say what you want to say Deep down, and you've
29:57
I know it's a little off topic But you've pretty much been unapologetic Siding with White and those other guys
30:03
I've called you several times on this issue before Considering where we live This always comes up But not being a
30:10
KJV onlyist And then being in a room full of people Who are not only KJV only But believe you to be in danger of heresy
30:18
For going with any other version Outside of the King James Version That was a little
30:23
Daniel in the Lion's Den depiction When I was watching it How you handled that Well, to their credit
30:30
Everybody stayed nice Even when they were saying I was a heretic They were at least nice about it So sweet Ran away
30:40
But there is something I had on my mind In regard to this question
30:46
Of pastors and wives And this is going to go back To the question of Ministry offices
30:53
Because We know that the Pastoral letters 1st and 2nd
30:59
Timothy and Titus specifically Address the roles of pastors The qualifications
31:05
Of ministers And there's a part that has always been A point of Question for me
31:12
And it's not that I don't have my own answer But I'm always interested to hear Other pastors' answers on this
31:18
Because we all have to address Questions when they're brought to us And Our church has
31:27
Male elders And male deacons We do not have a female diaconate
31:32
However, I do know At John MacArthur's church and other churches They would see 1st
31:38
Timothy 3 Verse 11 where it says The pastors and the ESV, their wives In some translations say women
31:46
And we know the word guneh Can be translated either as women Or their women or their wives
31:51
So we understand there's an underlying reason So when that Verse is brought up And people say
31:59
Okay, here's where women deacons come into play That's fine If that's a position someone wants to take
32:05
It's not the position I take But if that's a position that someone takes MacArthur position I'm not going to argue that But here's where my question comes in And if you guys are one who takes it
32:16
As women deacons, that's fine You can explain that But if you take it as their wives
32:21
As the ESV translates it In referring then That they are
32:27
The antecedent to that pronoun Would be the deacons
32:33
Why is it that we are given Qualifications for deacons' wives
32:38
And not qualifications For pastors' wives And I know my answer
32:44
But I don't want to go first And we'll see if we all have the same answer Or maybe a different answer And I'll share mine if it's functionally different Than what you guys come up with So go first Whoever wants to go first Nobody's excited
33:02
I'll start the cat among the pigeons I suppose So I I'll put it this way
33:08
I tentatively agree With MacArthur's position And I say tentatively simply because I've done some study into the issue
33:17
But not enough for me To be Willing to die on that hill necessarily
33:22
So to give some context even in our church Which is pretty small We just appointed two deacons and both of them are men
33:30
And I did get people ask me what my thoughts were I said look this is tentatively where I'm at I've not had an opportunity to teach this
33:37
To our congregation even And so I told them look for now
33:42
I am On the side of what I think is very Clear in scripture which is Men are called to that office
33:48
And that's what we're going to practice here When I have had in my opinion the proper Time to study this out
33:55
And to land conclusively I may Take a different view and I may bring that to our congregation
34:01
But I do think There's something I wouldn't again put my feet down hard And say yes
34:08
I think 100 % is Teaching this but I do think there is something To be said for the fact that there isn't a mention
34:13
About the elders Wife in 1 Timothy 3 that is said About deacons wives Or women if you take that view
34:22
I do think there is Something there I just haven't In my own conscience been able to Settle the issue to where I can say
34:29
I have a Firm conviction about that I think that's very fair brother and I appreciate that Yeah absolutely
34:35
I don't know where Keith lands on this I really don't because Keith and I have never talked about it
34:41
I think that you I think it's smart in some ways to have Caregivers That are women
34:49
Ministering to women Specifically in certain situations I just think there's a lot that we could talk about Extensively when it comes to variables
34:56
That we too are We're elder council Which are just men And then we have a diaconate
35:03
But the only men In that diaconate Only the men have been ordained as deacons
35:09
But there are women serving in a diaconate Role there And so I think when you look at 1 Timothy 3 11
35:16
You see according to certain interpretations That Paul is referring not to deacons wives But to women who serve as deacons
35:23
And if it's interpreted as women Who serve as deacons The use of the word likewise in verse 8 could suggest
35:29
That that group of leaders In addition to elders and deacons Which is why it's there and not
35:35
Not in the elders text Specifically That's a suggestion I'm with Kofi I haven't given that too much thought
35:43
I don't know where I'd land I probably agree more with MacArthur's interpretation I just think that that's a good practical way
35:51
Of demonstrating the offices In a body of believers Especially when you get to pastoral ministry
35:57
And safe pastoral ministry I will add That the reason I think this has gotten so skewed
36:03
In current cultural settings Specifically ours, Keith Is because deacons have been
36:09
Given the place of elders Unjustifiably and without qualification So the reason
36:14
We make our own messes And we want to sit here and talk forever About how to get out of these messes
36:20
Is when there is And I know we can agree with this There are elders given to the church Instead of a
36:26
CEO Ladder type of pastoring Where the deacons are then Called in to be the yes men
36:32
Good old boys Who can sit in the chair and start the boards And lead as chairman And act like they are fellow pastors and elders
36:41
And certainly meet some of those Moral qualifications In high character I've met some of the highest characters I've ever met
36:46
In the church are deacons So I'm not squashing the importance Of the caregiving office
36:51
They are leading servants But when we mess the offices up to such a degree
36:56
That the deacons are doing a job They should not be doing Then this sort of muddies up What we mean by qualifications
37:04
And who those qualifications can be given to And I think it drives us further away From a MacArthur type translation
37:10
Of 1 Timothy 3 .11 So that would be I think What plays against that interpretation
37:15
More than even hermeneutics I think it's cultural In a lot of ways Yeah and I would agree with you
37:23
Adam Particularly on the cultural aspect Of where we are I mean Kofi you're in Oregon Have you always lived sort of north
37:32
And obviously not always I mean I know you're From a different country But while you've been in America have you always lived
37:39
In the northern part of America or have you ever lived In the south? Oh yeah my entire time Has been in the Pacific Northwest Oh okay alright
37:46
So I know that I've never Lived north of the I guess the
37:51
Mason -Dixon line Whatever they want to call it, I've always lived as I'm a southern boy, I've always been a southern boy So the culture that Adam's talking about I mean
37:59
I'm steeped in it I've never lived more than 20 miles From where I was born, I was born in University Hospital I still live within 20 miles of University Hospital That's where I've always lived
38:10
And so this is the culture That I grew up in and I know that within Within my growing up church culture
38:17
Deacon was just a man That was like it was a man thing And so when someone
38:22
Provides a MacArthur response Of Well there can also
38:28
Be a role of deacon for women There's an automatic sort of visceral Reaction to that because of what
38:34
Adam Had said and that is that Deacons have been seen as leaders Specifically as in the
38:40
Position of it was the Pastor and the deacons right there was one man Pastor and then there was these deacons there wasn't
38:46
A board of elders it was you know The deacons ran the show But I do
38:52
Want to step back and I want to sort of give Another option of What I may think Paul may be doing here
38:58
As just my thoughts and I'm completely open To being wrong on this because I think
39:03
This is something that as both of you have said There's a lot of nuance here that has to be considered The word likewise and The fact that gune can mean women or wives
39:12
Or whatever there's a lot that can be Discussed here. I do think that There is a distinction
39:18
Between what can be shared Between a Duty of a deacon with His wife versus a duty of a deacon
39:26
Or a pastor with his wife The duty of the deacon Can have
39:32
Something and this is the way we treat it At our church is the deacons Are men but their wives
39:38
Are welcome to And encouraged to participate In their ministry in a way
39:44
That the wives of elders can't Participate in the ministry that we do And I think what you guys
39:50
Said especially About there's certain things that women just Do better with other women
39:55
When it comes to certain ministries there's certain things That women can provide To other women that is a service
40:01
A deacon acting role and if you Wanted to call that woman a deaconess In the way Phoebe was called a deaconess
40:07
I think I would probably be okay with that If that was the way we were using that term As a servant of the church
40:12
But I think where I would draw a line is I would say I don't think it's an ordained office And I don't know that it is with MacArthur I'd have to look up how they do it if they actually
40:21
Ordain women deacons or if they just recognize That they're women who are gifted with service But we would say that it's
40:27
Particularly a man who is in The role of deacon that his wife Would have within that role
40:33
A role of service alongside Of him that would be unique to that that would Not function in the role of elder because My wife can't preach alongside of me
40:41
My wife is not going to do that My wife is, there's certain things that she's not She's not going to come to elders meetings
40:47
And make policy decisions for the church Alongside of me whereas a man Who is a deacon his wife can serve alongside
40:53
Of him in almost every way that he does In a way that's unique to her So I think that's a nuanced way of looking
40:59
At it and perhaps the reason why Paul Is addressing the wives of deacons here And that's my kind of strange
41:05
But odd but still I think possible interpretation I think that's actually pretty
41:11
Compatible. I don't see Those two things as As having to live in two separate
41:17
Universes. I think There's a lot to be said about a deacon And his wife being called to the role
41:23
Of being leading servants in the church Versus an elder And his wife both being
41:29
The servant leaders for the entire congregation I think that That's apples and oranges for anyone who's lived
41:35
A certain amount of time or spent a certain amount of time In a church setting. You know that those Functions are completely different But still in the same ballpark
41:43
So I wouldn't have a problem with that Or really MacArthur's We do not ordain anyone who is
41:49
A part of the deaconate So there's a recognition And then there is
41:55
It's done through leadership. We ordain elders And I think again This sort of circles back to the reason
42:01
Why you even know of deacon Ordinations And then pastors who are on the
42:07
Payroll preaching a view of a call Is because of certain very culturally Specific setups
42:13
For the offices in Evangelical churches. So I think I think what you said is
42:19
Very well could be the interpretation Yeah and I Said the word ordain for deacon
42:25
But you're right. We actually We use the word appoint versus ordain And it's only because of Yeah Kofi do you guys ordain deacons or do you
42:35
What language do you use? So when we Selected Two men who function as deacons in our church
42:42
I was very clear to say that we are appointing These men and that we believe the Language of ordination is
42:49
Primarily for the Elder office. Amen Well getting back to our wives
42:56
And I know that was a little bit of a departure But I wanted to make this sort of a you know I don't always get to talk to pastors
43:02
Guys as educated as you guys So I love to ask good hard questions And put you on the spot because that's fun
43:09
But the The We're when we talk About our wives and we talk about the ministry
43:16
That they do to support us I want you to just take a minute and Because this is oh by the
43:22
Way did y 'all know this was pastors appreciation Pastors wife appreciation month did y 'all even know that Not until you
43:28
Said that at the end of your Video so yeah Saved me a huge Amount of trouble my wife wouldn't have given me
43:36
That trouble but there would have been some ladies in the church After a Sunday have been like I hope You know I hope you took your wife out for a wonderful Dinner it's best they would have known they know
43:44
When like pancake day is like they Know everything and so That's that you saved me from that Conversation I didn't
43:53
Know it existed until a week ago Not even a week ago when I found out It existed my wife and I Immediately began writing the script for That video because it was her
44:03
Friend you know Jennifer Bradshaw David's wife She she just mentioned that somebody had told
44:09
Her that march is pastors wife appreciation Month and I said well let's Let's make a video
44:14
A pastors wife denomination video And so I wrote the script and I wrote it with Jennifer that well we call them
44:20
Jen squared Because two Jennifer's yeah So we wrote I wrote it with the two of them in mind And we we went to her house we filmed it in Jen's house which is great because at one point
44:29
When she's playing the Presbyterian there's a There's a single malt scotch behind her It's only it's it's not really visible
44:35
Real well but it's behind her you know because the Presbyterian you know they They they enjoy their single malt
44:40
Scotch but Anyway but we found Out about this and I just said you know what
44:47
I want to come on at the End of the video I want to mention this because Does your Church actually recognize
44:54
Pastor appreciation month which is in October do you guys have has that been Something that you've experienced
44:59
Kofi No okay Adam have you Had no
45:05
I really I don't I guess this is a Kind of trapping me
45:11
I feel like this is gonna Oh I'm sorry No no no Just kidding
45:16
I think so I Didn't want to say that they don't do anything For me because there's like you know 400 people there's
45:23
There's someone who gives you a Gift card because they know They've been a Baptist long enough they're like oh
45:30
You know what it's October I think we're supposed to Do something special for you and so we've Had a lot of sweet people gift us
45:36
During that month we don't recognize It like we don't have a part of the Service where like someone
45:42
Gets tasked to bring pastors up and Be like let's give them all a round of applause For being ordained and this
45:48
Isn't something we broadcast on our social network So I would probably agree with Kofi It's not anything we would we celebrate
45:54
But there are a couple people who might go Hey here's take your wife out For dinner here's something and I didn't want
45:59
To speak against them because then you know the Gift cards would stop that's what I meant By you trapping me
46:05
I'm doing this to save face this is a Financial decision you put me in Well For me like it's
46:13
Kind of been like not every year Like I remember specifically when Aaron Bell was our worship leader now that's
46:20
Been several years ago and I know Kofi you don't Know him but he's a fellow pastor in the area He was he was our worship leader he
46:26
Went to Southern and he came back And became the pastor of a church it's actually Almost exactly between Adam and me
46:31
So like he's like he's like right Between where we are in a place called Yulee and Aaron One year he
46:40
Like raised money and he Sent my wife and I to the Ligonier conference And he did all this stuff for pastors
46:45
Appreciation and but that was Many years ago but I remember that specifically I Thought it was very sweet But in general it sort of comes and goes
46:53
And there are people who like you said they'll give you a gift card But it's not something we do we don't do a big Churchwide we're going to appreciate
46:59
I always tell people I feel like I'm Appreciated if they come and listen to the word I feel like I'm appreciated if they continue
47:06
To support my family as they do All the time the church shows me their appreciation By by loving me
47:12
Every every time we get Together I I'm thankful So like I don't need that but I Do think
47:19
I think it's interesting that Most of the people I have talked to Never heard of pastors wife appreciation
47:26
And it might just be something new it might Just be something that somebody made up every Holiday is made up except for like like the
47:32
Real important ones like Christmas and Easter But everything Is made up right so we make up Father's Day we make up Mother's Day I mean 200 years ago there was no
47:41
Father's Day Mother's Day Right that's a that's a that's a holiday that came Into being and so I just said you know what
47:48
I do think it's worth Stopping and saying That the men behind or excuse me
47:54
The women behind The men who are preaching the women behind The men who are up there are worth
48:00
Being celebrated Simply for the fact that they put up With the biggest centers in the church us
48:06
Like they put up with the big maybe not the biggest Centers but the biggest I'm I definitely am The largest center in my church
48:13
Oh come on that's A good joke I got it Man that was great it was good
48:20
So I so as we were getting Close to the hour mark here I want to ask both Of you to simply say something
48:26
About your bride I'm sure it's easy You love your brides you're thankful for Them say something that Is unique to her that you
48:34
Appreciate and I think that would Just be good because hopefully they'll hear this and be Encouraged by it and And I think that would be a good way
48:42
For us to round out this conversation So whoever wants to go first and I'll Go last well thank you for giving
48:48
Me the opportunity to do that Keith because I could I could talk about Amy Jo Forever she is my biggest
48:54
Interest and I will Say too it's not just that she joined Me in ministry
49:00
But I have I have Run every decision Ministry related as far as our
49:06
Career like walking into this choosing To do this vocationally accepting the Calling all of this has been done
49:12
With Amy Jo and Present and and giving me Where God's leading her or What the
49:18
Holy Spirit is doing In her life and and how he's kind of Moving both of us We immediately had things in common
49:26
Like wanting to homeschool our kids and wanting To have kids and she we Went to seminary and we both got jobs
49:32
She's been nothing but supportive And she's incredibly genuinely kind I always tell people people that She loves better than I do which
49:40
Is always a weird statement coming from your pastor Where it's just the sense that it's Easier for her it seems to just Genuinely love people the way
49:47
You're supposed to love people From where how she's Lived her life evidence of her life and So she's given that love to our kids
49:56
To our church she's just an incredibly Loving wise Person who it would
50:02
Be completely ignorant of me Not to lean on her strengths And understand her talents and Showcase them and express thankfulness
50:09
For them Amy Jo's the reason She's the reason I got my Life in order and it's certainly
50:15
The reason that I went into Ministry I was not headed for that at all And so I think that that can all be attributed
50:23
To the Holy Spirit to the Lord To our Father God and him Using my wife
50:29
For what we believe to be his purposes And his will so that's Just a short version
50:34
I could go on and on But I'm more than thankful For her I think I think to be a healthy Pastor you should have a healthy
50:41
Amount of thanks for your wife I think that that they're definitely Related Amen brother coffee
50:50
Sure I'll do my best not to get emotional about this because It does hit home for me what I'm about to Say So we planted our church in 2019
51:00
And If anyone listening church planting Not for the faint of heart I'll just put it that way
51:08
We've had Pastoral we had a pastoral transition A year in we've had
51:13
A good number of people Leave praise the Lord a good number of people join But you know
51:19
And we've had we've had some losses of Relationships and losses Friendships as a result of You know what we've been trying to do here
51:27
In southern Oregon And I Really couldn't do what I do without my wife because Every time
51:35
That something has happened just by nature The way I am things hit me very hard And There have been moments where I've wanted to walk
51:42
Away but you know what I don't know if this is what God would have me to do You know I could
51:48
This is affecting my home I don't know if this is what I want to do and This is the thing
51:54
I love most about my wife She just has a spine of steel And More than once She has just said
52:01
This happened on Sunday where I was Unhappy about a situation that happened And you know my wife could see
52:08
I was unhappy about it and I just confessed I was like I get worried that You've lost a few friends because of decisions
52:14
I've made and I don't regret the Decisions I might regret the effects And she just looked me dead in the eye
52:20
And said Kofi when we got together You told me you wanted to be in ministry
52:25
And I prepared myself for that reality I'm fine And I'm like I know you might be fine
52:34
I'm not fine with that But no Kofi I'm fine And just the way that God Has gifted her
52:41
That's not to say that she's not at all She's incredibly tender hearted
52:46
Incredibly sympathetic But God has just given her a resilience That I honestly could not
52:52
Do pioneer church planting Without her And so I'm incredibly thankful for her
52:58
And just the resilience And the perseverance that God has given her To where she's willing to count the cost
53:05
And is like no this is I believe God has called you to do this Kofi I want to support you in that And hey if it costs us it costs us
53:13
But I could not do what I do without her That was beautiful brother
53:18
And I remember years ago I met A Presbyterian minister
53:23
And He had been in ministry for Had to have been 40 -50 years
53:29
I mean I was new to the ministry And I was going through a very difficult time And my wife sat with his wife
53:35
For an hour and I sat with him for an hour They didn't know us we just visited their church We were on vacation we visited their church
53:41
Afterwards he came up and introduced himself to me And he said you're a pastor aren't you I said yeah how do you know He said you were paying attention during the sermon
53:48
I thought that was so funny I thought that was a great answer He said I just could tell
53:53
By the way you were paying attention You seem to be somebody who knows A little about what we're doing here
53:59
And I just thought that was a funny answer But my wife and I my wife talked to her Wife and one of the things she said was
54:06
You know it's really hard To have friends because of the Nature of ministry and people leave your life
54:11
So easily and People walk away so easily and And what you just said really just rung in my
54:17
Heart because you know There have been a lot A lot of times
54:22
Where we've watched that heartbreak and it's with our kids And I would tell you this Brother because I know your children are
54:29
Small It's hard and it's one of the Hard things is watching your kids have their
54:35
Hearts get broken over a friend leaving Because it's not their friend's choice Their parents are leaving or whatever
54:41
It can be really tough But praise God for your wife Praise God that she sees that As part of her ministry that she understands
54:49
It's a hard life and People do leave and people Walk away but praise be to God that she's standing with you
54:57
Absolutely. I think that was Such a great answer and in Terms of eternal perspective to just praise
55:03
God for wives with a Strong sense Of what they're called to do
55:09
And to what life they're called To live towards and so to Me that was when you said resilience that Hung real true.
55:16
I also Love that I went first and then you gave That answer and now I sound like an Idiot chump on this thing
55:23
And Kofi Sounds like freaking Idris Elba just sitting
55:29
There, you know, giving Like this beautiful Let me pause you for a second
55:35
Prejudice answer. She bewitched Me heart and soul and I'm sitting there going She's loving, she's
55:41
Nice sometimes Oh man. So just to pause you on that Point. So you mentioned
55:47
Idris Elba. He and I are actually from the same Part of East London. Unbelievable Oh that's great.
55:53
Yeah He's from Hackney which is the part of East London I'm from Yeah well my grandfather Tried to steal a train so We all have
56:02
Connections that we're proud of And not proud of Kofi. You don't have To rub it in my
56:07
Southern face I say that I say that out of just complete
56:13
Respect. The way you carry yourself Kofi It really shows How much you love your wife in all seriousness
56:19
That was just a really beautiful answer No thank you. And I think Other pastors actually
56:25
Needed to hear And pastors wives need to hear That appreciation
56:31
Of resilience. Like man So much can be said with just We know it's tough but we're going to do it together
56:37
We know it's tough but God's got us And we're going to do it together. I think just a lot Can be said for that Amen.
56:44
And I did Say I would go last and as I said now I've got to Go after that but I'll I'll say this.
56:50
Mine is In no way as articulate or as beautiful But I will say this
56:55
There's something to be said for knowing your wife Is on your team And knowing that she is never trying to Undermine what you're doing
57:02
But is always there to Encourage you. I remember the first day I met My wife. I met my wife
57:10
October 26 1997 It was the day we met And I remember
57:16
Looking at her. I remember what she was wearing I remember she was wearing a red shirt with blue jeans White tennis shoes and we ate at a
57:22
Ryan Steakhouse because her dad Took us to dinner because I was teaching her A magic trick and there's a long story behind that She was in a performing arts class.
57:29
She was An athlete. So I took Her Our dads worked together.
57:34
I was a professional magician It was kind of a weird thing. But anyhow I've never had
57:40
Anybody made me feel like They actually Genuinely cared about what
57:46
I was Doing and wanted to be a part of it As much as she did from the very moment I met her She genuinely cared
57:52
About me. What I was doing And at the time I was a magician. I was a 17 year old professional magician which
57:58
Sounds like it's not even a thing. It was a thing And that's what I wanted to do with my life And she was like fine with that.
58:03
Like she was Like fine with marrying a magician Not the first day we met but like Like I didn't get saved until The year we got married.
58:12
The year it was actually After we got married. But my wife has Always been so supportive
58:17
And loved me and Truly been on my team And I'm so Thankful for that.
58:24
And when that became a Ministry. When that became our life was Following Christ it didn't change
58:30
She's still That same person who supports me And loves me. She looks at me the same way she did
58:35
That day. And I'm Just thankful to have somebody who looks at me That way and who
58:40
I know I always have that person On my team. And like People come and people go.
58:47
And that's what we're Talking about Kofi. People come in in our lives In and out of our lives. But having Her there being
58:53
Now I'm gonna cry But man I'm thankful that God gave us three wonderful wives
58:59
And that is all His glory. All His grace And all of His mercy.
59:04
And I'm glad we had An opportunity to talk about that today Because What better thing other than just the
59:11
Salvation that we have in our Lord could we talk About than the blessing we have in The wives that He's given us
59:17
Well gentlemen as we close the show I want to give the opportunity. I know Adam you have a Podcast and Kofi I know you
59:23
Do ministry and outside of your church Writings and things like that. Do you have A podcast? I wasn't sure about that It's on hiatus but we'll be
59:31
In your timing soon. Okay Well take the next minute as we Close. Tell everyone how
59:36
If they want to get in contact with you. If they're close By and want to join your church or visit with you Tell them about that.
59:42
I'll let you both have a minute And then we're gonna close out the show. Adam You go first.
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Well I'm pastoring at Amelia Baptist Church In Amelia Island, Fernanda Beach, Florida Area. We'd love to see you.
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We have services at 9am And 1045am We also podcast
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The We Bear Witness podcast We really have enjoyed Doing that. We've had a lot of Really cool people on recently
01:00:06
So you can find us anywhere Podcasts are platformed as well as our YouTube channel At We Bear Witness. We'd love to see you subscribe
01:00:13
And yeah We really enjoy it. So thank you for checking That out. I've been meaning to do a parody
01:00:20
Of your show called She Bear Witness About Elijah. I think that would be funny The She Bear Witness I just haven't had a chance to do it yet But it's coming
01:00:29
I can't wait man Alright sorry Kofi Go ahead
01:00:36
I was supposed to follow that I know it's so silly It's so funny Well if anyone
01:00:43
Well I think the primary way to catch up with me is on social media So I'm on Twitter A Kofi Cup So a
01:00:50
Kofi Cup. I'm also on Facebook Instagram, all the usual places If you want to know more about our church Redeemer Bible Fellowship You can go to our website which is
01:00:59
RedeemerMedford .org So RedeemerMedford .org All of our sermons are up there
01:01:04
You can catch up with what's happening at the church And hey If you're ever in the southern
01:01:10
Oregon area You're welcome to join us. We have services At 10 .15 on Sundays And yeah we'd love to have you with us
01:01:17
I just love that it's RedeemerMedford Because my first name is Medford So it just sounds like It just sounds funny
01:01:24
Like RedeemerMedford No my name is Keith but thank you No that's wrong Well thank you both for being a part of the show
01:01:33
And I really appreciate it I want to thank you guys For being a part of your Calvinist Podcast Remember please
01:01:39
If you want to get in touch with me you can do so By sending me a message at calvinistpodcast At gmail .com
01:01:45
If you're interested in our church you can go to sgfcjacks .org And again If you like the video hit a thumbs up If you didn't like it hit the thumbs down button twice