Stop Twisting Matthew 18:20 (Where two or three are gathered...)

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Is it true that where two or three are gathered, that's a church? We're going to talk about that today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

00:27

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:29

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist.

00:32

And I'm joined today with me in studio, the Muffin Man, Uncle Rich, Richard Roden is here today.

00:38

Thank you, Rich, for being here.

00:40

Once again, you've managed to drag me off my little Debbie route to come out and talk about Jesus things.

00:46

So I'm happy to be here.

00:47

Well, I'm grateful.

00:48

I'm grateful.

00:49

And today we're going to be discussing some fallout that I had from a recent video.

00:54

And many of you probably have come to know our podcast from some of my short videos that I have on TikTok and Twitter and YouTube.

01:02

I've been putting together short videos for a couple of months now.

01:05

They've gotten some attention.

01:06

I'm very grateful for those of you who've sent me notes and cards and things saying that you enjoy cards.

01:10

I've never got a card.

01:11

An email.

01:12

What's a card? I didn't get a card.

01:14

You've sent me messages saying you enjoy the videos, and I'm very grateful.

01:18

And I'm grateful for those of you who have been following the TikTok account and who follow me on Twitter.

01:22

I really appreciate that.

01:23

But just like with anything, anytime someone makes a statement publicly, there are going to be those who disagree, and they're going to come out with their disagreements, and sometimes those disagreements are harsh.

01:34

And one of my recent videos has encouraged some really harsh responses, and it was on the subject of whether or not someone should go to church if they are a Christian.

01:46

And I'm going to show the short video.

01:48

I don't usually do this in my long-form podcast, but I'm going to show this in case you've never seen this video.

01:54

I wanted this to sort of set the stage for what Richard and I are going to talk about.

01:58

So for one minute, these videos are always a minute or less because that's what it has to be to fit on the YouTube shorts.

02:05

So I'm going to play the video, show you what everyone is talking about and arguing about, especially on TikTok.

02:11

If you want to know where the arguments really are, go over to TikTok, and you'll see some people have lost their minds about this video.

02:17

So check it out.

02:19

Hey, man.

02:19

It was nice to meet you.

02:20

You as well, brother.

02:21

I enjoyed our talk.

02:22

Well, since we're talking, I'd love to invite you to come visit our church one Sunday.

02:26

Hey, I don't go to church.

02:27

I am the church.

02:28

What's that now? Church isn't somewhere you go.

02:31

Church is who you are.

02:32

It's the body of Christ all around the world.

02:34

So I don't need to go to church.

02:36

The context of the word church in the Bible often means assembly, and you can't assemble all by yourself.

02:40

Well, I don't need to go to church to worship God.

02:44

But God calls us to assemble with other believers for worship.

02:47

And most of the New Testament letters are written to local churches.

02:51

The writer of the Hebrews even says to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

02:55

And many of the New Testament commands assume participation in the local church.

03:00

Look, brother, I just want to worship God my way.

03:02

Maybe it'd be better if you worship God his way.

03:07

All right.

03:08

So that's the video that got the attention.

03:10

If you haven't seen it, now you have, and now we can have a robust conversation about it.

03:14

Richard, you saw the video, right? Yes.

03:16

I did watch the video.

03:17

My son loves those.

03:18

He calls them the copy videos.

03:20

He says, Daddy, are you going to do a copy video? I'm like, what do you mean a copy video? You copy yourself.

03:26

I said, well, that's what they're now called in my house.

03:28

Okay, Daddy's making a copy video, and that one was made on my back porch.

03:32

I know that.

03:33

Yeah.

03:33

Well, yeah, because it was formerly your back porch.

03:36

Well, what the responses have been, and they have been overwhelming in one particular argument, and that is this, that we have a passage in Scripture that says where two or three are gathered, I am there in the midst.

03:56

And people say, that is proof that you don't need to go to church because where two or three are gathered, that constitutes the church.

04:06

That's all you need.

04:08

You don't need to gather in a building.

04:10

You don't need to gather with other believers.

04:12

You don't need to be in a corporate body.

04:14

All you need is two or three people gathered around the Bible, and even that's optional.

04:19

It's just two or three Christians together, and Jesus is there in the midst of them.

04:25

So have you heard people say that? Is that an argument you've heard? Yes.

04:29

I have heard that argument before where, and it's people who like, I've heard it in the context of when people are having their little Bible studies and stuff like that.

04:40

I get a couple of guys together, and they have a little study, and they say where two or three are gathered, God's in the midst of that, Christ is in the midst of that.

04:47

So I've heard it before, not necessarily in the defense of not going to church at all.

04:54

So I've heard it more in the, you know, for people who have their little home Bible studies, and it gives them like a confidence for their home Bible studies that God's gathering with them because there's two or three of them there.

05:06

Sure, yeah, and in that sense, I think there would be less negative from me if somebody says, well, yeah, I want to get together with my brothers in Christ because where two or three are gathered, Christ is with us, you know, and he's a part of what we're doing.

05:26

Even though I would still say that's not in keeping with the context of the passage.

05:31

I wouldn't automatically, you know, be the exegetical commando and come in with my carving knife and begin chopping them up.

05:39

Not that I do that anyway.

05:42

We might be doing that today.

05:44

Well, some people force your hand.

05:47

I remember one time I was in a restaurant and somebody came up to me in the restaurant and started saying some stuff.

05:55

They knew me.

05:56

They weren't a pastor, but they were like a Bible teacher at another church.

06:01

They came over and started talking to me, and they were telling me what they were teaching that day, and it was sort of weird.

06:06

It was sort of off the wall.

06:07

And I was just sitting there listening, okay, and I was just smiling, you know, whatever.

06:11

Well, when they left, the people at the table with me said, why didn't you correct that person? I was like, dude, not my circus, not my monkey, not my, you know, they are not members of my church, and I have no reason to take out my exegetical carving knife and start correcting everybody about every little thing that they say.

06:31

Even if it's incorrect, if it's not dangerous or something, there's no reason to get into that.

06:36

And I think that sort of as a side note, I think that's a problem on Facebook and Twitter and all the rest of these social media outlets, is we do tend to be overly critical of people.

06:50

And I do think there are times where iron needs a sharpened iron, and we do need to say things because somebody says something just totally off the wall.

06:58

But other times, it's just unnecessary bickering, and we should be better than that, and we often aren't.

07:08

Oh, I've fallen into the trap many a times, especially in the earlier days of Facebook when I was, especially in the cage stage of Calvinism, I would go after folks for the simplest of stuff, and I've learned over the years it's just not worth it, because one, you're not going to defeat a keyboard warrior with a keyboard.

07:26

It's just not going to happen.

07:28

So you can argue all day long, they're not going to change their mind, and it's about pointless.

07:34

So anyway.

07:35

Yeah, no, absolutely.

07:36

Absolutely.

07:36

And so often, you're dealing with folks who are, you know, they don't know a lot, they just know what little they do know, and they're going to argue for that little thing, and there's little fruit that comes over it.

07:49

And some of you might be saying, well, that's what you're doing today.

07:52

You're dealing with keyboard commandos who've come after your video.

07:56

No, what I'm doing is, my reason for asking Richard to come and for us to have this particular show, is what I want to do is I want to say, if this is an argument that you are making, or an argument that you're agreeing with, because by the way, when people make this argument, people hit the like button, and I can see not only, you know, it's like, well, the Bible says we're two or three are gathered, that's a church, and then tiki-tiki-tiki-tiki, there's all these, you know, bing-bing-bing-bing, you know, they got 500 likes on his ridiculous comment.

08:24

It's like, okay.

08:25

So not only did he make a comment that was not good, but he was encouraged in his not good comment.

08:30

So what we're going to do, and Richard brought some notes, and I have some, well, I have the scriptures.

08:38

No, no, I didn't bring any notes, but I appreciate you writing a few notes down, and we are going to, what we're going to do is we're going to talk through this text, and if you have your Bibles at home, if you're listening to this and you want to open up your Bible, it's in Matthew chapter 18 and verse 20.

08:53

Now we don't always do straight Bible studies on this show, but that's basically what today is.

08:58

We're going to do, how do we understand this text within the context, the greater context of what is being said, and how do we understand what Jesus is saying when he says, where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them.

09:14

And that's what it says in the English Standard Version.

09:18

I'll read it again, Matthew chapter 18 verse 20 says, for where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

09:28

Now again, ripped out of its context, that can be made to mean many things.

09:35

It could be, as you said, it could be a Bible study.

09:38

People say, well, hey, we're having a Bible study and where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am.

09:43

So Jesus is with us in our Bible study.

09:46

And this is Jesus speaking, by the way.

09:47

First thing that we always have to determine when we're reading a text is we have to determine who is speaking, to whom is he speaking, things like this.

09:55

And Jesus is speaking here, and he's speaking to his disciples, and he's talking to them.

10:01

And we have to understand that when he says, there am I among them, he is speaking about himself.

10:09

And so when someone says, when someone makes the argument, well, when I'm gathered with two or three people, Jesus is with us, and they're using this passage, immediately they're assuming a meaning into the text that it doesn't necessarily carry, but ripped from its context, it does.

10:26

And this is where I like to remind people is that the Bible is not a fortune cookie.

10:31

Or it's not, excuse me, the Bible's not made up of fortune cookies.

10:35

But the problem is that's how we tend to read it.

10:39

People don't read the Bible within its context.

10:42

People read the Bible for passages, and they pull those passages out, and just like little pieces of paper that go in a fortune cookie, they just have that sort of mindset.

10:54

So let's look at this within the grander context of what Jesus is talking about.

11:02

And we see the context of this actually begins earlier in verse 15.

11:09

And the context of this is when someone sins against someone else, and historically this section, Matthew 18, verses 15 to 20, has been known as the church discipline section, because this whole section here deals with the idea that if someone sins against another person, and this we would say the context here is believers, it says if your brother sins against you.

11:40

So it's an issue of believers sinning against believers.

11:44

It says if your brother sins against you, and it gives an account of what is to be done.

11:50

Now, a lot of churches don't practice church discipline.

11:53

Some say they do and don't really.

11:56

Some just don't do it at all.

11:57

Some believe that it's wrong.

12:00

Richard, have you ever been in a situation where church discipline was practiced? Have you ever seen it done in the context of your church or another church? Darrell Bock And you don't have to give specifics on that.

12:12

Richard Cunningham I'm not going to give specifics.

12:13

I was involved in one or two where step one, going to the brother in private and discussing with them, was performed.

12:23

So yes, I've seen it in action.

12:27

We hold to church discipline at our church.

12:29

Now, I haven't been involved in anything at our church.

12:33

If it's happened, it's been done very quietly, and that's the way it should be done, especially if the person that was being disciplined repented.

12:40

The whole church doesn't even know about it.

12:41

That's step three.

12:44

So anyhow, but yes, I've been involved with it a couple of times, and I know that we practice it at Greg Ables.

12:52

It's important to have church discipline.

12:55

Because, I mean, what's the point of having a fellowship and a community of believers if you're not going to hold each other accountable? Darrell Bock It's interesting.

13:02

You just said something that some people may not understand, but I understand it because we both have a similar context of understanding church discipline.

13:11

You said that's step three.

13:13

And people who don't know wouldn't know what you mean by that.

13:16

But what he's talking about is this very passage.

13:19

I'm going to read verses 15 to 20 just straight through, and then I'm going to talk about those three steps that you just talked about.

13:26

Because he says, Jesus is speaking.

13:29

He says, If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

13:34

If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

13:36

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

13:46

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

13:49

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

13:54

Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

13:57

Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

13:59

Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

14:06

For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

14:12

All right.

14:12

And then he goes on.

14:13

Just to understand context is always what's before and what's after.

14:16

What comes after this is the parable of the unforgiving servant.

14:20

Where he says, Peter came to him and said, Lord, how often would my brother sin against me? I forgive him.

14:25

So he begins to talk about the concept of forgiveness.

14:27

Because he just talked about someone sinning against you.

14:31

And you go into that person telling them.

14:34

And they repent and you forgive them.

14:37

So the context continues on.

14:40

And my point is this.

14:41

Because some people would say, no, church discipline ends at verse 17.

14:48

Verse 18 begins a new context.

14:50

And this is about binding things in heaven.

14:52

Binding things on earth.

14:53

And a lot of prosperity preachers use that.

14:55

Again, these passages get ripped from their context.

14:58

And prosperity preachers say that verse 18 is about my power to loosen, bind things by the power of the Spirit and words and prophecies and things.

15:08

And then they would say verse 20 fits in that context.

15:14

Verse 20 is about binding and loosing with two or three people.

15:17

And again, going back to that whole two or three witnesses.

15:19

I'm sorry, you can't see this.

15:21

I'm bringing it up on my phone.

15:22

So I can use it that way.

15:24

And my point again is that if you understand that the very next parable of Jesus is about forgiveness, it's about a brother sinning against a brother, then what you understand is the context which begins in verse 15 about a brother sinning against you does not end at verse 17.

15:44

It does not end at verse 20.

15:45

It continues on down through the end of the chapter with the parable of the unforgiving servant.

15:51

So this particular passage is all about the idea of forgiveness and what to do if you go to a brother and genuinely call them to repentance and they refuse to repent.

16:03

What do you do with the unrepentant brother? Because we know what we do with the repentant brother according to the next parable is you forgive them.

16:11

And you remember how this parable works.

16:12

The servant goes to the king and he asks for forgiveness and the king gives him forgiveness but then he goes out and he finds somebody else and that person doesn't give him forgiveness.

16:24

That's this one.

16:25

He says, just for clarification, beginning at verse 23, Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.

16:34

And when he began to settle, one was brought to him that owed him ten thousand talents.

16:37

And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold with his wife and his children.

16:41

So the servant fell on his knees imploring him, have patience with me.

16:43

And we know what happens.

16:45

The master forgives him and then he goes out and sees somebody who owes him much less and says, pay me what you owe.

16:52

And then he gets brought before the king and he says, listen, I forgave you and you didn't forgive this guy.

16:57

This is a key standard version.

16:58

I apologize.

16:59

He's like, I forgave you and you won't forgive this guy.

17:01

What kind of a hard heart do you have? That you've been given forgiveness for such a great debt that you won't forgive a minor debt.

17:08

So the concept of forgiveness beginning in verse 15 continues on down to the end of the chapter.

17:15

So we have to understand that verses 18, 19, and 20 fit within the context of this particular idea.

17:25

And that's what's so important for those who say, well, two or three are gathered, that's a church.

17:30

No.

17:30

Where two or three are gathered, someone's being disciplined.

17:34

That's the key.

17:34

It's not about two or three constituting a church.

17:38

So going back to what you said, the third step.

17:41

First step is what, Richard? If somebody sins against you, what do you do? You privately go to them in person and confront them over the issue and do it in love the best you can.

17:51

See, I thought if somebody sinned against you, you're supposed to call three other people and begin a gossip chain.

17:56

No.

17:56

No.

17:57

That's a joke.

17:58

Well, speaking of that, that's part of the problem in the church today is why you don't have brothers and sisters in Christ who are willing to open up to one another because of the gossip chains.

18:08

That's right.

18:09

If I have sin in my life and I'm struggling with something, I'm afraid to tell Jimmy or Jerry or whoever because Jimmy and Jerry are going to then call 15 of their friends.

18:17

Let me tell you what Richard just called and told me.

18:19

You know what I'm saying? But that's a different subject.

18:22

Or if you upset Jim or Jerry, they're not going to come and tell you.

18:25

If you hurt them or sin against them, they're not going to come and tell you, but they're going to go vent to, you know.

18:31

15 other people.

18:32

And now you've created a coalition of people who have an issue with you because of whatever this thing is that has been done.

18:41

And all of that could be remedied if we just do what Christ says.

18:45

If your brother sins against you.

18:48

And oftentimes, I bet you, it would be a situation where the brother may not even know they've done it.

18:54

I agree.

18:55

I agree.

18:56

They may not even know they have offended you in any way, shape, or form and would immediately apologize.

19:00

Yeah.

19:01

And then there's restoration between the two of you and you're reconciled and everything's fine.

19:04

Yeah.

19:06

It doesn't always have to be some grievous sin if you just go talk to somebody.

19:10

You can usually work things out pretty quick.

19:12

That's right.

19:12

And he says, between you and him alone.

19:15

I love that.

19:16

And every time I preach this text, and I have preached this text several times, it is in the context of you and him alone.

19:23

This is where all of this begins, between you and him alone.

19:27

And if he listens to you, you've gained your brother.

19:29

And the point of that is, it's over.

19:31

That's it.

19:31

You took step one.

19:32

Step one was successful.

19:34

You don't have to take step two.

19:36

It's over.

19:38

Now, step two is the part where we see the introduction of the idea of two or three.

19:47

Now, if you're astute and you're making connections, and making connections are important, you'll understand that when he says two or three in verse 16, that that should ring in your mind when you get to verse 20, and he mentions again two or three, right? So let's read it.

20:10

It says, but if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of what? Two or three witnesses.

20:19

And when I'm teaching on this, I always say, the reason for this is multifold.

20:25

But one of the primary reasons of getting witnesses, if you sin against me and I go to you and you say, I didn't sin against you, well, now it's my word against yours.

20:33

But if I can go to my elders, maybe, and I do think that this is a time when the elders could get involved.

20:38

And again, another reason for the local church is that you have spiritually mature men that you can go to and that can help you and minister to you in this time.

20:47

They come along and they say, actually, Richard did sin against you, and now the three of us can come and bear witness to you, and now you're not just – now it's not a me against you, but it's a you against the wisdom of multiple people.

21:05

Multiple people who have prayerfully deliberated over this and who have Christ in the midst of them.

21:13

Again, going to – jumping to verse 20 very quickly, where two or three are gathered in my name.

21:18

What are they gathered to do? They're gathered to bring the weight of this person's sin and to call them to repentance.

21:25

And where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst.

21:29

I am – Christ is the great reconciler.

21:32

He is the one who brings the weight of this allegation or charge against this person.

21:37

He's in the midst, all right? So that's step two.

21:44

Remember Richard said there were three steps, and I agree.

21:48

The discipline has a first, second, and third step.

21:54

And the third step we get to is verse 17, and this is probably the saddest reality.

22:01

It says if he refuses to listen to them – who is the them? It's the two or three witnesses.

22:06

It's the ones who have come with Christ in the midst.

22:10

They've come to again try to maintain this person's integrity and privacy because it's still within a small body of faithful people.

22:20

It's not in the midst of the whole church.

22:23

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to who? The church.

22:29

The church.

22:29

And again, this is what kills me about people who use Matthew 1820 to say we don't need the church because this very context of the passage says church.

22:38

In fact, this is one of only a couple of times Christ actually uses the word ecclesia.

22:43

When he says in Matthew 16, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail, that's the other time.

22:48

And this time, he doesn't use the word church much, but this is one of the times that he uses the word church, and he uses the word church in the context of the corporate body bringing the weight of the corporate body in discipline to the people who are in opposition by way of sin to the two or three witnesses who have come and called them to repentance.

23:12

He says tell it to the church.

23:15

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

23:23

Now what is the context of that? A Gentile and a tax collector were two people who were not allowed in the temple.

23:31

They were excommunicated by virtue of one, not being Jewish, Gentiles not being Jewish, and two, having been a traitor to the cause of Judaism by siding with the Romans.

23:44

And so they had been excommunicated as well.

23:46

So you have two groups that are excommunicated that Jesus uses.

23:50

He says so if you have a person who has sinned and they have been called to repentance by the person they sinned against, they've been called to repentance by two or three witnesses with Christ in the midst, and they have been called to repentance by the entire church, that person is to receive excommunication, which is a fancy way of saying they are to be no longer welcome as brothers within the body because they are demonstrating the willingness to live a habitually unrepentant, sinful life.

24:23

Darrell Bock And the idea of that is treating like a Gentile and a tax collector is okay, they're showing that they may not be a member of the church in the first place in the spiritual sense of being born again.

24:37

So now you excommunicate them, and now you start back at square one with them with proselytizing them, giving them the gospel in the hopes that they'll come to true repentance so they can be restored back into the church properly.

24:50

So yeah, but I'm agreeing with you on – go ahead, you had one extra point on that.

24:53

No, I just didn't want you to get too far from the microphone.

24:59

Mike likes me to be close.

25:00

No, this is Richard, I'm Keith, and this will be Mike so there's no confusion.

25:04

The mic likes you to be close, buttery goodness.

25:09

But yeah, I was trying not to laugh out loud when you said it kills you when they take this text, Matthew 1820, to say this means you don't have to go to church when the entire context is about the church and how to operate in situations like this.

25:27

So it's quite amazing, I mean we could stop there as far as the argument against this, but I mean there's – the scriptures replete with other areas so we're going to have to go to them in a minute.

25:38

Absolutely.

25:38

I do want to mention one thing before we jump to some cross-references, but very quickly just staying within the context.

25:46

The binding and loosing passages, and I do just – I just have to mention this.

25:49

When he says, truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

25:53

How many prosperity preachers have you – oh, I can bind the spirit of prosperity and I can loose the spirit of demonic poverty, and you know, these – Oh, Kenneth Copeland tried to bind COVID.

26:08

Where'd he go? He went like – I blow you.

26:12

And he blows with them crazy eyes.

26:14

And again, it's like you spit on everybody.

26:18

Well, there wasn't nobody there.

26:19

It was him and four other guys because they couldn't gather because of COVID.

26:23

So he was – He's got a demon face.

26:25

Well, he's got a demon.

26:26

I mean he's – Oh, yeah.

26:27

He's probably possessed.

26:29

Anyway, we got off on a side note there.

26:31

Go ahead, bind on loose.

26:33

But the idea of being bind loose, and then he says in verse 19, again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

26:40

And again, that can easily be ripped out of its context and used as a passage where people can say, well, all we got to do is agree, you know, I'm praying in agreement with you and God's going to do what we say to do because God is bound to do what we say as long as we pray in agreement.

26:54

No, that's not what this is about.

26:55

The two or three gathered have gathered for the purpose of calling this person to repentance.

27:01

They have agreed that this person is in sin and this person is denying it, but yet they – or saying he refuses to repent.

27:08

He might not be denying, but he's refusing to repent.

27:10

They have come with the weight of God and they have bound this issue under the truth of the reality of his sin.

27:20

And now what the church has done, the church has made a decision to excommunicate this person and God is on their side.

27:29

This binding and loosing that is being done is being done under the power and authority of God.

27:36

God gives that authority to the church to call people to repentance and to excommunicate them if necessary.

27:46

I know that this – for people who are in churches who don't practice excommunication, who don't practice church discipline, this sounds so foreign and so wild and so crazy.

27:54

It's like why in the world would a church ever put anyone out? All we want is for people to be saved.

27:59

Why would we put anyone out? But if there is a brother who is confessing to be a brother, but as Richard said, is showing himself to not be a brother, who is living as an unbeliever, he cannot be welcomed into the assembly as a brother because what we are doing in that is we are saying to him something that's not true.

28:17

We are telling him that he's a brother when he's not a brother.

28:22

And with that, I do want to turn to my first cross-reference and it's one I always cross-reference when I study this particular passage and it's in 1 Corinthians chapter 5.

28:31

Was this one of the ones that you had? No, it's not one of the ones I got.

28:33

Okay.

28:34

Well, 1 Corinthians is the other way.

28:39

Don't you teach this? I do.

28:41

I do.

28:41

I'm talking to you.

28:44

You be quiet.

28:46

Okay.

28:47

All right.

28:48

So this is an instance where the Apostle Paul is actually commending the church at Corinth to practice church discipline within the church.

29:00

Many of us are familiar with this passage, but I still want to read it because it is important.

29:04

Paul is discussing with the allegations or the reports that he's received about Corinth and this is what he says.

29:13

He says, it is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you and of a kind that is not tolerated even among the pagans for a man has his father's wife and you are arrogant.

29:22

Ought you not rather to mourn, let him who has done this be removed from among you.

29:27

Notice immediately Paul says this dude is practicing an immoral act, an immoral act that even the pagans don't practice and the reason why they don't is because the context of this is the context of incest.

29:40

Now, it's not his mom, it's probably his stepmom because it doesn't say he's having sex with his mother, it says he's having sex with his father's wife, which probably means that this is his father's second wife after the mother maybe has died or some other event has caused them to be divided.

29:54

He is having an affair with his father's wife.

29:57

But in pagan societies, stepmothers or foster mothers or whatever were still considered to be incest if those relationships were entered into.

30:06

And so Paul is saying that even in pagan societies, a man cannot sleep with his stepmother because well, one, it's gross, but that's not – it's immoral.

30:21

That's Paul's point is he is committing an act of immorality and I love the fact that he says, and you are arrogant.

30:28

You say, why are they arrogant? Why are they – they're arrogant because they aren't doing anything about it.

30:32

In fact, when I taught on this passage because I did teach the first Corinthians several years ago, I said there's a good – based on the rest of the chapter, what we see is there's probably a good chance that not only are they tolerating this sin, but they're actually proud of the fact that they're tolerating this sin.

30:48

This is why he says you're arrogant.

30:50

And think about that in today's context.

30:52

How many churches not only tolerate sin, but they take pride – I mean, isn't that the very word that's used often in accepting sinners? And that's the problem.

31:04

This guy has not been dealt with the way he should have been dealt with.

31:08

He's been not tolerated, but celebrated.

31:12

Right.

31:13

Well, I mean, we can point to the way homosexuality's infiltrated the church and it's been accepted.

31:20

Abortion's been accepted.

31:23

Celebrated.

31:24

Celebrated.

31:24

Look at the last election.

31:26

Right.

31:26

All these – like the woman in Georgia who the preachers were telling we should vote for her, and she's all for abortion.

31:33

Oh, yeah.

31:34

I don't remember her name.

31:35

Oh, you mean Abrams? Mm-hmm.

31:36

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

31:38

You have cohabitation being celebrated and supported prior to marriage.

31:43

That's right.

31:44

There's people in the church that are straight up living together.

31:47

They ain't married, and nobody's saying a word to them.

31:50

And all of this is a serious problem.

31:53

So, I mean, yes, there's nothing new under the sun.

31:56

We're still facing the same stuff today that they faced back then.

31:59

It's just whether or not you're going to act as you should and do what God's commanded you to do and deal with these people.

32:08

Yeah.

32:08

And that's what Paul – I mean, I'm not going to read the whole chapter because essentially he just reiterates what he said.

32:14

He says, let him who has done this be removed from among you.

32:17

So Paul commends the act of church discipline.

32:20

He commends the act of excommunication in 1 Corinthians chapter 5, and it goes on down.

32:26

And he says this.

32:27

I did want to read the last portion here.

32:29

He says, I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.

32:33

Not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world or the greedy or swindlers or idolaters since they would need – since you would need to go out of the world.

32:41

But now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, not even to eat with such a one.

32:51

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? It is not – is it not those inside the church who you are to judge? God judges those outside, but purge the evil person from among you.

33:02

So Paul makes a distinction.

33:04

He says, yes, people in the world – sinners are going to sin, wretches are going to wretch.

33:08

People are going to be people.

33:09

And you live in the world.

33:10

You've got to deal with that.

33:11

You've got to deal with sinful people.

33:13

But it's different in the church.

33:14

Again, making my argument that there is something distinct about the church.

33:19

What goes on in the church is different than what goes on in the world.

33:22

And what is allowed within the body of those who call themselves Christians has to be distinct from what we accept or understand is going to be natural in the world.

33:32

When I see a gay pride parade, I'm not happy about it.

33:37

But at the same time, in my mind, I say, wretch is going to wretch.

33:41

But when I see a pastor wearing a rainbow flag on his, you know, vestments or the rainbow neck piece on his vestments, that is happening within the body.

33:58

That's happening within what is supposed to be the church.

34:00

And it may not even be.

34:01

I mean, he may be in an entire church that has become apostate because there are churches, entire churches that have left the gospel.

34:10

But the point Paul is saying here is there is judgment that has to be made.

34:14

And that judgment that has to be made is judgment within the house of God.

34:18

As the Bible clearly says, you know, the judgment begins in the house of God.

34:22

And so there is a context in the scripture where the church and the assembly and the body are necessary.

34:30

And those who say the assembly is not necessary, you can't fit these in.

34:35

I did say this in the video.

34:36

I said there are whole sections that wouldn't make any sense if you didn't have the assembly, that they only fit.

34:44

And one guy argued on TikTok, again, I didn't bring the comment section with me, but he's like, he's like, I don't think that's true that there are commands that only fit within the context.

34:53

All of the one another passages, and we know those, you know, love one another, support one another, you know, all of those one another passages are within the context of the body, the body being believers.

35:06

If we never meet, if we never associate, if we never gather, if we never have an assembly, who is this distinct group that's practicing this act of calling each other to account? It just, it, the argument is void that Matthew 18, 20 would be in support of no church.

35:32

It just doesn't fit.

35:33

And those who make that argument are not understanding the text.

35:36

Richard, you brought some passages.

35:38

Well, mine just...

35:40

Defending the integrity of the church, right? Yeah, defending the idea that all through scripture, there is this idea of gathering of believers together.

35:50

So, and I'm just all over the place, I was in the truck writing these down.

35:54

Sure.

35:55

But you already mentioned this in the TikTok video, Hebrews 10, 25, do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together, which is a matter of some.

36:01

We are to, as a command, and you just talked about some people just said, there's no commands to go to.

36:06

That's a command to go and be with one another in Hebrews 10, 25, do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together.

36:13

Well, what could it possibly mean? Who is the writer of Hebrews telling not to forsake the gathering of themselves? So the gathering of who, if not the church? And encouraging one another, all the more as you see the day drawing near.

36:29

So if it's not the church gathering together, then who's being commanded to gather together? There's this element of you need to go and see, and earlier in Hebrews, because they could use this, they could use this and say, well, two or three people could gather together.

36:42

That's right.

36:43

Okay.

36:43

And that is one that I was going to mention.

36:45

One of the arguments that seems to be consistent is two or three are gathering.

36:49

That's the gathering here.

36:50

We don't need more than two or three people.

36:52

So what's it to you? Well, I would say, well, then you got Hebrews 13, 17 that came before that, which talks about submission to leadership.

37:00

Okay.

37:01

Comes after it because 13, 17.

37:03

Oh, 13, 17.

37:03

I'm sorry.

37:04

10, 13.

37:04

Anyway.

37:05

I was thinking 17, 25.

37:06

Anyway.

37:07

No, you're fine.

37:07

You're fine.

37:08

After that, he goes into discussing, obey your leaders, submit them, because one day they'll have to give an account, and let them do this with joy and without grumbling, which is good for your soul.

37:18

So if there's leaders that you're being held accountable to, and those leaders will be the pastors, so you're commanded to submit to those in authority over you, your leaders, which would be the pastors, because they're keeping watch over your soul, whose soul? The soul of the people, the local congregation that's been given to them.

37:36

The gathering that is gathering together.

37:39

So do not forsake the gathering together so you can encourage one another, but also don't forsake it because, one, you're being commanded to submit to someone who's in authority over you, the under-shepherd.

37:48

I'm sorry.

37:49

The under-shepherd has been given to you.

37:51

You have God, you have Christ, and you have the under-shepherd, the pastor, who's been given to shepherd this flock.

37:56

So if you are commanded to gather together, and to gather not only to encourage one another, but also be encouraged by the man that God's placed over you, and you submit to his leadership, that in itself is the church.

38:10

You have the elders that you're submitting to, and you're to do this with joy and without grumbling so that they're not driven nuts, because they have to – they're going to give an account for how they deal with you.

38:21

You got some – you're going to answer for things I'm not going to have to answer to.

38:23

Because you're a pastor.

38:24

But let me just read this, because I think what you're saying, obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account.

38:33

Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

38:38

Darrell Bock Right.

38:39

So it's only good for you if you obey and submit.

38:42

And that's a command from God.

38:45

And in 1 John, it says, if you love me, you will do what? You will keep my commandments.

38:51

Well, if you love God, and he's commanded, one, gather together, he's commanded, two, submit to those in authority over you.

38:58

You have no problem submitting to other authorities, police, government, those things.

39:04

There's Christians out there that say you better submit to government to the point of putting pinwheels on your ears, quote, asserting somebody.

39:11

You have no problem submitting to that authority, well, then you should submit to the authority of God where he tells you to go to church, to gather together so that you can encourage one another.

39:20

So you can bear one another's burdens.

39:22

So you can rejoice with one another.

39:24

So that you can be under the word and be sanctified in the truth.

39:28

And what's the pastor's job? To equip you for the work of the ministry.

39:32

So if you're under the leadership of a pastor, he's equipping you for the work of the ministry, which bleeds down into all the other facets of church life so that you then, as a group of body believers, can separate and go out during the week to be a witness to the gospel and then come back together to corporately worship.

39:47

This is all commanded to do.

39:50

So Matthew 18.20 denies this? Not at all.

39:53

Not at all.

39:54

In any way? And what's interesting about what you just said, you talked about being in authority.

40:00

God has established three authorities.

40:02

I've taught on this before.

40:03

I don't know that I've ever talked about it on the podcast, but I have taught on this before.

40:06

God has established three spheres of authority in the life of every person.

40:11

The first sphere of authority in the life of every person is the authority of the family.

40:15

God gives the command to honor your father and mother, and that establishes within the home an authority.

40:22

Children are to obey their parents.

40:24

Wives are to submit unto their husbands.

40:25

Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

40:29

So there's an authority structure in the family, and I know that many people are wanting to destroy the family today, but I would say that's the first and most essential authority structure that God gives is the authority structure in the family.

40:42

God also gives an authority structure in government.

40:45

He says in Romans 13 that he's established government for the purpose of rewarding good and punishing evil, and we know not all governments do what they're supposed to do there, but the government is called God's deacon, God's minister, to reward the good and to punish evil.

41:01

So the government has a sphere of authority, and the family has a sphere of authority, but there's a third sphere of authority that many people miss and some reject outright, and that is the authority of the church.

41:13

There is authority within the church, and Christ is the head of the church.

41:17

I'm going to be preaching on this soon because I'm preaching in Colossians, and it says Christ is the head of the church, and so we know that Christ is the head of the church.

41:24

He governs the church through his word.

41:27

The scriptures are his word, and elders are responsible.

41:31

That's what you say when you use the word pastor.

41:33

There's multiple Greek words, but episkopos and presbyteros are the two words which both can be overseer or elder or pastor.

41:43

That's that role, bishop, sometimes translated.

41:46

Those men have been recognized by the congregation, ordained by the church for the purpose of having the responsibility of teaching and preaching the word of God to the people because that's how Christ governs.

42:00

He governs through his word, and the word is proclaimed through the exegetical preaching and teaching of that word, and therefore, the elders, they don't have authority that is absolute.

42:11

They have authority that's tied to the word of God.

42:13

This is where I don't have any authority outside of this.

42:16

When someone comes to me for counseling, they get the word of God.

42:19

When someone comes to me and wants life help or whatever, they get the word of God because that's the only authority I have.

42:25

I don't have the authority of Keith.

42:27

It's the authority of Christ, which comes from his word, and then there are other areas of the church, and this is something I wanted to get to.

42:36

I'm glad you brought it up, is the deacons because people would say that, yeah, I get together in my house with two or three other believers, and we are a church.

42:46

I say, now, wait.

42:48

There can be house churches, and I'm not opposed necessarily to the concept of house churches, but here's the problem that often arises.

42:56

In-house churches often lack structure.

42:59

Not all, so before you send me an email, I'm not saying this is all.

43:02

I'm saying in some of the ones that I have seen, and this is where I have the biggest issue, there are none within the body who are recognized as leaders or elders.

43:11

There are none who have been ordained within the body to those roles, and there are no deacons within the body to serve the ministry and needs of that body and to be responsible for ensuring that the needs are met, and that's what the role of the deacon.

43:25

You're a deacon, and you realize that your job within the body, you are a minister.

43:30

That's the word deacon is translated off, and diakonos is translated as minister.

43:35

People call me minister.

43:36

I say, well, I'm a minister of the gospel, but the deacons are the minister to the body.

43:41

That's their job, is to ensure that all the needs are met, just like we see in Acts 6, which are the proto-deacons, the men who were first called to make sure that no one went without the proper food, and so today we use that as an example to say no one in our church should be not ministered to, and that begins with the hands and feet of the deacons.

44:01

They are the hands and feet of the church, and so if your body that you're gathering with at Starbucks or in your living room doesn't have that structure, then it's not a church.

44:13

And the role of deacons goes back, one of the primary roles of deacons in handling everything and trying to make sure the needs of the church are met, and if you're in a larger congregation like we are, the congregation is split up into groups alphabetically so that there's six or seven deacons, and they all got a certain group of folks that they can – that they're primary responsible for, but that doesn't mean that if Brock Lee is missing or out of commission that another deacon don't step up and take over in that – Darrell Bock Is there a guy, his name is Brock Lee? Mike Cunningham Yes, Brock Lee, yes.

44:48

Darrell Bock That's awesome.

44:49

Mike Cunningham Somebody's mom and dad were proud.

44:54

They're like, our last name is Lee, what can we do with this? Darrell Bock But not only are we – are deacons required to do that, but they do that so what? The pastor can dedicate himself to the ministry of the word.

45:09

Mike Cunningham Yeah.

45:10

Prayer and the study of the word, that is the primary job of the pastor and elder.

45:14

Darrell Bock Because the elders are responsible for bringing the word, which is part and parcel of why we gather together so that they can – y'all can sanctify us in the truth, bring us the truth, and equip us for the work of the ministry.

45:26

And deacons help do that.

45:28

That whole structure is necessary to the proper operation of a church so that they can be a witness in the community around them.

45:40

If you have a church that's operating un-biblically or you just got two or three people gathering together and they're calling it church, that's not the way it's described in Scripture.

45:53

It is a body of believers.

45:55

I mean, look at Acts when the church was born.

45:58

They were adding like three grand a day.

46:01

Shut up.

46:03

Mike Cunningham And churches can start small.

46:06

And we're not saying that there is a particular number.

46:12

I know that – and I'm just clarifying.

46:14

We're not saying there's a particular number that constitutes church.

46:16

We're saying there's a structure that constitutes a church.

46:19

And it would be hard for me to justify someone saying, okay, we got three people.

46:27

We got the pastor, the deacon, and the church member, and that's the two or three.

46:32

Again, is that – it comes back down to this thing, and I had this on my last podcast with Pastor Kenny where we talked about people saying, well, I just can't find a church.

46:43

And that's what happens a lot.

46:44

People say, I just can't find a church, so you know what? I'm just going to start one because I can't find one that satisfies me.

46:50

And that happens a lot.

46:51

People just – I'm going to start a church and it's going to be the Church of Keith.

46:55

And it's going to be everything that Keith believes and it's going to – we're going to use the Keith Standard version and it's just going to do – we're going to do things my way because I'm the only one who's got all the circles nicely tightened up, and I'm the only one who's got everything fixed and right in my mind.

47:10

Darrell Bock So here at the Church of Keith, who's holding Keith accountable to anything? Where are the other elders? Where's the deacons? Where's the body of believers that can go to him and ask questions about things that he's teaching and hold him to account? And that's the problem.

47:27

Darrell Bock Well, and that brings up an interesting issue.

47:30

Any time we see elders in this, we could do a whole other show on this, and maybe Richard and I will at another point come back and talk about this.

47:35

We could do a whole show on the concept of a plurality of pastors or elders rather than one single Protestant pope who lives in his ivory tower and no one's allowed to challenge him.

47:50

A pastor should be challenged.

47:52

A pastor should have men who can come alongside of him and call him to account if he begins to go to the right or to the left in his teaching or if he begins to shirk his duties and his responsibilities to the people of God.

48:08

And I'll say it's difficult sometimes.

48:11

I serve with a plurality of elders.

48:13

It's me.

48:14

It's Andy and Mike.

48:15

We've served together for many years.

48:16

Before that it was Jack and Richard, not you, but Richard Taylor, and Byron was an elder years ago.

48:22

I've always served with a plurality of elders.

48:24

I've never not had that, and it's been a benefit.

48:26

But it's difficult sometimes because those men hold me to account.

48:30

Sometimes it's like, man, they're really holding me feet to the fire, but that's the way it's supposed to be.

48:38

Darrell Bock I can't imagine Mike Collier holding you to account.

48:41

Mike Collier is one of my best friends in the world, but he will call me out if I need it, and I'm thankful for friends, brothers who will do that, brothers in the Lord, and even not members of my church, but my good friends like you.

48:56

We love each other, and so we encourage each other, and we call each other out when need be.

49:02

And if you don't have that, if you don't have somebody in your life who is, what does it say? Everybody needs a- Darrell Bock A Jonathan? Mike Collier Well, no.

49:11

Everybody needs a Paul.

49:13

Everybody needs a Timothy.

49:14

Everybody needs a Barnabas, I think, because everybody needs somebody who's discipling them.

49:21

Everybody needs somebody who they're ministering with.

49:23

That's their Barnabas, and everybody needs somebody they're ministering to.

49:25

That's their Timothy.

49:26

So it's just like a threefold.

49:28

Everybody needs their Paul, their Barnabas, and their Timothy.

49:30

Darrell Bock I was thinking about a Jonathan to the David.

49:32

Mike Collier Sure.

49:32

Yeah, and that too.

49:33

Yeah.

49:34

There's a lot of biblical examples there.

49:36

Darrell Bock Well, speaking of going down my list, continue because you kind of gave me a segue.

49:40

Mike Collier No, I want to.

49:40

Yeah, yeah, I want to.

49:42

Darrell Bock Another thing that comes to mind is like 1 John as a whole.

49:44

Mike Collier And you've been teaching through this, so this is good for you.

49:48

Darrell Bock Yeah, we just finished up 1 John last week.

49:51

Mike Collier That's in the New Testament, right? Darrell Bock Yes.

49:54

Again, he teaches the Bible for a living.

49:58

But in 3.14 and following, I just read a few verses to get this idea of loving the brethren.

50:04

It says, We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.

50:08

He who does not love abides in death.

50:10

Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

50:14

And we know, loved by this, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

50:20

So my question for anybody who says that we shouldn't, they don't necessarily have to gather within a body of believers, then how is it that you can love the brethren as you're commanded if you're doing lone wolf Christianity? Like your TikTok video said, and that guy, I am the church.

50:37

You're correct.

50:39

You're part of the church universal.

50:40

If you are a born-again believer, you are part of the church.

50:44

But how can you follow commands like loving the brethren and bearing one another's burdens and rejoicing with one another if you are not part of a local body? And another thing I would state, too, is if you're out there and you think you can do lone wolf Christianity, one, you're in complete sin because you're disobeying a direct command of God to gather together and to love one another.

51:09

But second, you're missing out on a major blessing because being part of a body of local believers, when you are in the depths and the pit, God has given you a hope that amidst suffering and the fellow believers around you.

51:29

I can't tell you how many times I have called a brother or I've brought up a prayer request or somebody just noticed that I was just off and came and talked to me.

51:40

And the amazing amount of encouragement and help it is to know that you have fellow believers around you that will drop anything.

51:52

I mean, it says lay down your lives for the brethren in that passage.

51:56

Whether that looks like sacrificing your time when Steve calls you up and he's just in the depths of it because he just lost a child or his wife or something's going on.

52:09

And you had more important things to do, but you drop that to go and just be with him.

52:16

That's laying your life down for the brethren.

52:18

And it could possibly even mean literally laying down your life for the brethren in the sense of for the sake of the cause of Christ.

52:24

You may require your life of you.

52:26

But either way, it is a tremendous blessing to know that there are those who are willing to do that for you and you're willing to do that for them.

52:34

And you miss all of that.

52:36

You get none of that.

52:38

If you are trying to just have this little one or two folks or I'm the church lone wolf Christianity attitude, you're in sin, one, you need to repent, and two, you are missing out on what something God has given you that can help you in ways that no other, the world can't.

52:56

The world can't.

52:57

So that's why, how can you be obedient to the command to love the brethren and to lay down your life for them in sacrificial love if you're not a part of a local church? You can't.

53:10

It's impossible.

53:12

Darrell Bock For just as the body is one and has many members and all the members of the body, though many are one body, so it is with Christ.

53:19

For in one spirit we were all baptized in one body, Jew and Greek, slave or free, and we're all made to drink of one spirit.

53:24

For the body does not consist of one member but many, and the foot should say, Because I am a hand, I do not belong to the body, that would not make them any less part of the body.

53:33

And if the ear should say, Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body, that would not make it any less part of the body.

53:38

If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God has arranged the members in the body, each one of them as he chose.

53:48

If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

53:56

As the body of Christ local, we have members of all different sorts, and if we did not have that variety, many things would not get done, because within the variety that you just said, they're missing out, but something else is happening.

54:11

By not being a part of the local body, the local body is missing out on what you would bring, because you might be the hand or the ear or the eye or the nostril or the earlobe or whatever.

54:22

You might be something that the body needs that it doesn't even know that it needs, because you bring a particular unique set of gifts to the body.

54:32

And I'm always very amazed at how looking at 20 years, you know, I started in youth ministry at 22, and it's now 2022, so it's 20 years in ministry at this church, and I can show throughout the years, every time we had what we needed, the people were here, that God had for that time, for that season, for that thing, God raises up men and women for those things.

55:04

Oh, yeah.

55:06

So do you have, or go ahead, I'm sorry.

55:07

Oh, yeah, just a couple more, one, and these are a little bit less than the ones there, not really, but 1 Timothy 3 comes to mind, a pastor is to manage the household, to manage the flock, and he has to manage his household well, because if he don't manage his household well, how can he manage the household of God? Well, if there's no gathering of believers that are to submit to him, then how can he follow the command? There's no flock.

55:32

There's no flock if there's no household of God.

55:34

Not if we're not supposed to gather together.

55:38

And then, of course, Galatians 6.10, and this goes back to what you said in 1 Corinthians 5, there's a priority upon the local church.

55:45

There's a distinction.

55:46

Galatians 6.10 says that wherever you have opportunity, be good to all people, especially the household of faith.

55:53

So there's a priority set on the household of faith.

55:56

If you're a believer, your priority is your fellow brothers and sisters.

56:00

It doesn't mean you ignore the world, but as I was having a discussion with my pastor about this passage we were covering, I was using this in part of loving the brethren.

56:09

Do we love everybody the same, and is there a distinction to be made? He said, yes, first in Galatians 6.10, especially the household of faith, you pour into your fellow brothers and sisters.

56:21

There's a different love there, but it's with the idea of you're expanding that out to the nonbeliever, to the rest of the world.

56:28

So it's not like you're just in a bubble.

56:30

Don't look at it that way, that you ignore everybody else.

56:33

But there is a distinction.

56:34

We don't love the church and hate the world.

56:35

Right.

56:35

We love the church, and by that, love the world.

56:38

Right.

56:39

But there's a distinction to be made that there is a priority to be set upon the household of faith.

56:43

Well, again, the household of faith is that gathering of believers.

56:49

You can't get around this subject in Scripture.

56:51

So I just wanted to bring those two up, and then, of course, back to loving the brethren.

56:58

As Matthew Henry said, okay, and I'm paraphrasing him, but if we love God, we should also love those that he set his affection upon.

57:07

And the only way to do that is through corporate gathering together and worship.

57:12

There's no other way to do it.

57:14

So this whole notion from Matthew 18.20, which, again, is a passage about the church.

57:20

That's right.

57:23

That you're just the church, and you can do this little lone wolf thing, and you don't need to gather in an assembly, is nonsense.

57:29

And I think the number one reason that people – and you may have a different number one reason.

57:34

No, I think we're going to say the same thing.

57:34

But I think the number one reason is they don't want to be held accountable to anything.

57:39

They don't want to have to be submissive to anybody in authority.

57:45

Yeah, many say they don't think that's necessary.

57:47

In fact, they would say – again, within the comment section, who in the world are you to tell me that I have to submit to anyone? I submit to God alone.

57:56

Well, yeah, but what does God command you to do? Command you to do an assembly, yeah.

58:00

If you're submitting to God, then you'd be coming to church.

58:05

Because God is telling you to gather together, and he's telling you to submit and to obey those who have been placed in authority over you within a local church, and that would be your plurality of elders.

58:16

So – or just the single elder, if that's all your church has at this point in time, because they haven't reached the point of having enough men trained up to take into roles of being lay shepherds.

58:27

Elders who don't necessarily teach, but are elders.

58:31

So they should be able to teach.

58:33

That's one of the qualifications.

58:33

But you understand, you have a primary pastor who does the majority of the teaching, and then you have the other elders who can step in when needed, but they're also there to help support the pastor, and you don't have this, as you said, the Protestant pope.

58:47

That's something my pastor does, is yes, we've got him, and we've got the associate pastor, Justin, but we want to get to a point where we have five or six, because he doesn't want it to be the Justin and Cody show, because the danger of this – you get this celebrity status for your pastor.

59:06

He don't want it to be that.

59:07

As a matter of fact, my Justin, he actually said, I want to work myself out of a job.

59:13

I want to train up other guys who can do this, where you don't need me, because if we get to that point, then you can start planting churches.

59:22

You see what I'm saying? But anyway.

59:24

And I would say that even though that might not be the language that you guys use, having two ordained men, whether you call it pastor, associate pastor, whatever, they're both elders.

59:34

Right.

59:35

So you have a plurality in that regard.

59:37

And many churches don't realize that that exists, and the reason why they don't is just because it's a language thing.

59:43

They call them pastor, associate pastor, whatever.

59:46

In our church, we all just go by the title elder, but there are people who call me pastor because my job is the primary teaching role.

59:54

I'm the mouthpiece of the elders, if you will.

59:56

I preach 95 percent of the sermons.

01:00:00

But we are all elders, just like Justin and Cody are both, in that sense, elders.

01:00:05

Well, I'll clarify that.

01:00:06

Cody has called him and Justin elders many times before.

01:00:10

Yeah, exactly.

01:00:10

Exactly, yeah.

01:00:11

He just uses those interchangeably.

01:00:13

And I would say a plurality begins with two.

01:00:15

Like you said, you want to have five or six, but if a church is not that – our Constitution says minimum of two because that's a plurality.

01:00:25

Even though we would say a plurality, we'd want more than two, and I think three is not a bare minimum, but I think three is good because you run the risk with two of sometimes having a conflict between two and a third voice is often very wise to have.

01:00:42

But again, we're getting off subject.

01:00:44

The point is – We're getting into ecclesiology now.

01:00:46

Yes.

01:00:47

But the point of all of this, I hope that you've understood that the gathering of the body is not optional.

01:00:53

This is not something that Jesus says you can take or leave, and I love the phrase you kept saying, and I've said it many times myself.

01:00:59

The idea of lone wolf Christianity is not biblical.

01:01:03

The Bible calls us to an assembly.

01:01:05

And Richard, I thank you for bringing several scriptures to share with us today.

01:01:09

I appreciate you doing that legwork.

01:01:11

You made it very clear that you wanted to knock this one out, so the only way we're going to knock this one out is with scripture.

01:01:18

That's right.

01:01:18

Hey, and we said – what I said was I said I want to do a Bible study and show they've just – the people who use Matthew 1820 to argue that you don't need to be part of a local body have missed it completely.

01:01:30

You were just out to lunch, and you need to – you know what? You need to pay your check and go to church.

01:01:35

Now, quick question for you.

01:01:37

Was your number one the same as my number one? On the reason why people don't? Right.

01:01:43

Essentially.

01:01:44

Okay.

01:01:44

Say yours again, and I'll tell you why.

01:01:45

Oh, it's just they don't want to be under submission or authority to be held accountable.

01:01:48

I would say that.

01:01:50

Mine was going to be pride, because this is what I keep hearing out of people.

01:01:55

I don't need that.

01:01:56

Right.

01:01:56

I don't need what God has commanded me to do.

01:01:59

I don't need what God has provided for me.

01:02:01

I don't need to be a part of what God has established, or God didn't really establish that because I don't need to be a part of it.

01:02:07

That's pride.

01:02:09

It really is, and it's what you just said.

01:02:11

It's not want to be held accountable.

01:02:13

It's saying I am enough alone, and the problem is we're not.

01:02:20

Sounds like the garden.

01:02:21

Yeah.

01:02:22

Yeah.

01:02:24

Wow.

01:02:24

Well, Richard, thank you for coming today and being a part of the show.

01:02:27

As always, I enjoy our time together.

01:02:31

Yep.

01:02:31

I appreciate you inviting me again, and as long as your audience still wants me to come, I'm happy to do it.

01:02:37

Absolutely.

01:02:38

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01:02:41

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01:02:49

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01:03:13

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01:03:20

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01:03:29

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01:03:32

Not me.

01:03:33

I wouldn't say that about myself, but other people have said it.

01:03:36

They're funny.

01:03:37

Yeah, kind of funny.

01:03:38

All right, guys, so thank you for listening to Conversation with a Calvinist.

01:03:41

My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.

01:03:44

May God bless you.