July 10, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Pastor Joe Thorn on his book “Experiencing the Trinity: The Grace of God for the People of God”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:03

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:10

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

00:18

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:25

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:34

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:48

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

00:59

Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

01:09

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming.

01:17

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 10th day of July 2015, and many of you were expecting and looking forward to our interview with Deborah Antignano, a former

01:32

Jehovah's Witness who is now a very talented Christian recording artist who is going to discuss her deliverance from the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses and her newly found and beloved faith in the teachings and doctrines of the

01:50

Protestant Reformation, and unfortunately Deborah had a bit of an emergency but it's nothing very serious.

01:59

She's at home resting and I hope she's listening to the program and we will let you know when she has been rescheduled to be on Iron Sharpens Iron, so keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron for more updates.

02:12

But I am thankful to God and thankful to my friends at the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for strongly and enthusiastically recommending my guest today,

02:24

Joe Thorne. Joe Thorne received his Master's of Divinity from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and is the founding and leading pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St.

02:39

Charles, Illinois, which is a Reformed Baptist congregation, and he's an active blogger at JoeThorne .net.

02:47

That's JoeThorne .net, and there's no E at the end of Thorne, just to let you know. Joe is a contributor to the

02:54

Story ESV Bible and the Mission of God Study Bible, and he's the author of Note to Self, The Discipline of Preaching to Yourself, and today we are going to be talking about his book,

03:09

Experiencing the Trinity, The Grace of God for the People of God. Joe and his wife

03:15

Jen have four children, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Joe Thorne.

03:24

Thank you so much, Chris. It's a privilege to be with you today. And tell our listeners, please, something about Redeemer Fellowship.

03:32

Well, we planted Redeemer Fellowship eight years ago, 30 miles west of Chicago, in a city called

03:38

St. Charles. I actually grew up in this area as a very non -Christian, as quite the pagan, and when

03:46

I was converted after high school, I really had a burden for church planting.

03:51

This is back in the early 90s, so there really wasn't much talk about church planting, but I had a burden to come back and eventually started church, and God led me and my wife after Bible College to go to seminary, and after that to come back and to plant the church right where I grew up.

04:07

And when in your Christian life did you discover the teachings of the 1689

04:13

London Baptist Confession, which are prominently displayed, those numbers, 1689, are prominently displayed all over your website.

04:21

When did you come to discover those teachings, which for our listeners who are unfamiliar with them, they are just a summary of biblical teachings, and those who drafted the 1689

04:35

London Baptist Confession, largely using the Westminster Confession, a Presbyterian document, they are from a particular

04:43

Baptist or a Calvinistic or Reformed Baptist perspective. But if you could let our listeners know how you came to discover these truths that I also hold to be very precious, and how they have affected your life as a

04:59

Christian and as a pastor. Well, I was converted without having ever really gone to church.

05:07

I didn't step into a church until I was 17 years old, never heard the gospel until I was 17 years old, and didn't grow up hearing any of the

05:14

Bible stories. So when I was converted, I was very much a blank slate, didn't know the story of Cain and Abel, Sodom and Gomorrah, or anything.

05:21

And so I began reading the Bible daily, voraciously, over and over again, trying to learn as much as I could, felt like I had a lot to catch up on as a new believer.

05:30

And the more I read, the more the pastors that I knew at the time, a very loving congregation of Baptists, but not

05:37

Calvinists, not Reformed, they kept telling me to be careful that I was sounding a lot like a Calvinist. I had no idea what that was.

05:44

And I kept assuring them, whatever that is, I'm not that, because that sounds bad. I'm just trying to figure out what the

05:50

Bible says. After a while, I began reading books, and in fact, books by John MacArthur in particular, that helped me to understand that what

06:00

I was seeing in Scripture was really there, and that there was much more to it. And shortly after that, maybe after I'd been a

06:06

Christian for about three years, or two years, I began, I found Charles Hodge, not a

06:12

Baptist, but in that Reformed tradition, and so I found my way into Reformed theology early on, and was overwhelmingly persuaded by it as a proper understanding of the

06:23

Bible. And as I studied the issue of baptism, I became convinced of Baptism, or Credo -Baptism in Baptist ecclesiology, and so it was around 1995 when

06:35

I finally found the 1689 Second London Confession, and I was familiar with the

06:42

Westminster, of course, and the Savoy, but when I found the 1689, it resonated with me so truly, so deeply, that I just,

06:50

I carried a copy of the 1689 with me in my bag everywhere I went, and so it's been a while, but it has had a, really, the

07:00

Reformed tradition, and the Reformed Baptist tradition in particular, has encouraged me to be both precise in my theology, but also very passionate in my understanding and experience of theology, and that has come to form not just my devotional life, but my life in ministry as well.

07:17

Yeah, I don't think any other theology in existence, in fact,

07:24

I'm pretty certain that there is no other theology in existence, that so clearly sets forth and declares the high exalted place of God, where He deserves to be, and the lowly helpless, sinful, wretched state of man where we truly are.

07:45

Absolutely, and you know, a lot of people struggle with this because of the way that they were raised or the theology that they inherited, you know, from non -Reformed or non -Calvinistic churches.

07:55

I didn't have that, and so not only was I reading this in Scripture, and did it, you know, logically, biblically make sense to me, but even in my own experience on a subjective level,

08:05

I hated God, and I became enamored with the gospel, but knew that I was going to hell, and knew that I deserved it, and God one day converted me while reading the

08:16

Bible. I didn't pray a prayer, walk an aisle, I didn't do anything. God changed my heart and mind in an instant, and so it not only resonated with what

08:26

I was reading in Scripture, but even on a subjective level, which makes it easier for a person, I guess, I really experienced that.

08:32

I'm a helpless sinner who deserves hell, and God graciously touched me and made me alive.

08:39

Amen. And I'm gonna let our listeners know the email address where you can send in your questions for our guest,

08:48

Joe Thorne. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

08:57

Please include your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

09:06

United States. And it may be a surprise to some of you, but we have some books to give away, some copies, free copies of Experiencing the

09:16

Trinity, The Grace of God, For the People of God, which we don't have in our hands yet, since we just discovered yesterday that Joe was going to be our last -minute fill -in guest, but we will have those shortly courtesy of Crossway Books, and we want to thank

09:33

Jani Firestone over there for being so quick with that and so gracious and helpful in these matters.

09:42

I want to also read a couple of the endorsements to kind of set our course as they described the book.

09:52

David P. Murray, who was actually a guest of ours very recently on Iron Sharpens Iron, a returning guest, when we discussed his book

10:00

The Happy Christian, he says, Here's gospel gold emerging from the furnace of affliction.

10:09

Truth that's been lived becomes life -giving as Joe comforts others with the comfort with which he has been comforted by God.

10:20

I hope and pray that these beautiful meditations will do you as much good as they did me.

10:26

That's pretty powerful commendation coming from a man the likes of David Murray and also an old guest on Iron Sharpens Iron.

10:36

I'm not referring to his age, but I'm referring to the older version of Iron Sharpens Iron that ran from 2006 through 2011.

10:45

Tom Nettles, who we hope to have back on the program very quickly, Dr. Tom Nettles of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, writes,

10:54

Joe Thorne is a pastor theologian. He also, however, is a broken man.

11:00

In this book he shares how Joe Thorne, the pastor theologian, ministered to Joe Thorne, the broken man.

11:07

How reflection of the reality of all graces of the triune God put him on the road to healing.

11:13

Every pastor should want all of his church members to digest this book. It will encourage them to our more profound dependence upon the grace of God.

11:22

It will help them abandon all reservations they have to be grateful to God for all things.

11:28

It makes them become better listeners to doctrinal preaching and will make the preacher himself a much more sensitive, reflective, and truth -oriented proclaimer of the

11:39

Word of God. Wow, that is really some powerful stuff there. Joe Thorne, if you could, since the book is titled

11:47

Experiencing the Trinity, give a very brief definition of the

11:53

Trinity. Believe it or not, I'm almost certain that there are people listening to this program that are not

12:00

Christians. In fact, I am certain because the very first week that the program was on the air, we received an email from a

12:08

Muslim in South Africa. So I do know that there are listeners that are not

12:14

Christians and those who have been poorly taught. And of course, the Trinity is a deep subject, but as briefly as possible, if you can define that for us.

12:25

Sure, yeah, it is deep and it is a mystery. The greatest theologians throughout the history of the

12:32

Church have described it as a mystery, and so we cannot fully understand the triune nature of God.

12:40

We can't understand what he has said about himself. And so historically, Orthodox Christians have said that God himself, the one

12:48

God, we are monotheists, the one God who has always existed, who will always exist, the sovereign good

12:55

God, the creator of the universe, the sustainer of all that is, that he exists eternally as three persons.

13:04

That there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons making up one

13:10

God, eternally existing at the same time. And that sounds, you know, polytheistic to some people.

13:17

That sounds to most Muslims, for example, like heresy, because they're so passionately committed to the idea that there is only one

13:25

God. And we want to affirm that as well, but the mystery is that God has always existed as three persons in perfect fellowship with one another, and yet it transcends our understanding beyond being able to affirm some really deep and profound truths.

13:46

There are no analogies that are truly helpful here, that are commonly used, but I find that those are generally unhelpful.

13:54

But I think the simplest way that I would define it is that one God eternally existing in three persons.

13:59

And I guess you've seen the absolutely hilarious cartoon that our

14:05

Lutheran friends developed on the Trinity and the argument with St. Patrick, have you? Right.

14:11

Very good. That was absolutely hilarious. But now, obviously, from what both of the interviewers, or reviewers,

14:23

I should say, of your book have just said, and of course you have many more than two, the ones that I read, that is, they both describe your book as being born out of your pain, and that you're a broken man, and so on.

14:39

If you could let our listeners know how that came to be, and how the

14:46

Trinity ministered to you. A lot of Christians, when they are broken in the depths of despair and suffering trials, you'll often hear them talk about the sweet comfort of Jesus, and you'll hear about the ministering soothing balm that the

15:03

Holy Spirit will provide, but the Trinity is something that you usually just don't hear in our vocabulary a lot, unless it's in a form of a liturgical recitation or something.

15:14

But in the common language of the Christian, you don't hear the Trinity being mentioned in such cases, unless I'm just talking to different people than you are,

15:24

Joe. I don't know. Yeah, no, there isn't an emphasis on the Trinity, and it's good that there is a

15:32

Christological emphasis, there should be, especially in the Reformed tradition, and we see this, that, you know, the

15:39

Father glorifies the Son, the Spirit points to the Son, and so this is good, but we are robbing ourselves of a full understanding of God, which means we're robbing ourselves of a full understanding of our salvation, and of the fellowship with our

15:54

Creator, if we don't really embrace and seek to understand and experience the person and work of our triune

16:01

God. So when I say that it came out of the, or when they say that this is born out of affliction, pain, and brokenness, obviously

16:09

I'm a sinner, I'm very painfully aware of my own sin, but it went much deeper than that, and the short way to say it is that right after the publication of my first book,

16:22

I became stricken with deep fear and anxiety, and I had a hard time functioning in ministry.

16:30

My family was doing great, my lovely wife, four awesome kids, a stupid dog, everything's great at home, the church is growing, we have amazing people and leadership, it's growing, it's just, things were going well, but out of nowhere, seemingly,

16:45

I was struck with this paralyzing fear. I would shake, my heart would palpitate,

16:51

I was afraid to preach, which has never been the case, I was afraid to counsel, and it was very debilitating, and as much as I prayed and preached to myself the promises of God and the

17:03

Gospel truth, as much as I examined myself, I couldn't find any real relief. And through the help of Dr.

17:10

Murray from Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, he stepped into my life and asked me hours worth of questions and led me, counseled me, helped me to see the changes that were happening in my, that needed to happen in my life for me to find a better place of spiritual and really holistic health.

17:30

And in some sense, it was because I was overworking and under -resting, but in the end, when

17:39

I began to address all of the areas of my life, my physical health, mental, spiritual health, all of it,

17:46

I eventually began to find relief, and the linchpin in all of it, and I walk through that in detail in the introduction of my book, so people can read that for a greater detail, but the linchpin in all of it, of course, was the

18:00

Word of God showing me the person and the work of God, and so this book is essentially made up of my journals, where I would, you know, be reading through scripture, taking a passage, preaching it to myself, and, you know, trusting in God, even when it didn't feel like there was much benefit, you know, trusting that God's promises are true, even when it didn't look like those promises are true, like Psalm 73, for example.

18:29

So it was the Word of God that was fundamental to my recovery, my spiritual recovery here, and so, yeah, that's really what it is.

18:42

It was the ability to see this is who God is as Father, and what

18:48

He does and says as Father in the life of a believer, and so I'll give you one example. When we're considering the knowledge of God, the

18:57

Father, and His omniscience, we're very familiar with the omniscience of God. He knows all things, nothing is hidden from His sight, but there is a deeper gospel truth there, that God not only knows all things, but as my

19:09

Heavenly Father, He knows me personally. He knows my weaknesses, my frailties.

19:14

He knows what I can handle and what I can't handle, and He will oftentimes even give me much more than I can handle, so that I will break under its weight and run to Him for safety and security.

19:27

So throughout all of this, I learned that I was much weaker than I knew, and now that I've found health and I'm in a much better place,

19:37

I am even more convinced that I'm the weakest man that I know, but I'm no longer fearful because God has given me enough grace to trust in Him as He's revealed

19:48

Himself in Scripture. And let me repeat our email address if you have questions for Joe Thorne on his book, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

19:57

chrisarnsen, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. We already have a listener,

20:04

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, who asks, should we embrace our oneness

20:12

Pentecostal brethren or friends as brethren? Should we view them as fellow

20:19

Christians since they deny the Trinity and some even would call it a satanic pagan heresy?

20:27

And I don't know whether or not I should view them as fellow brethren in Christ.

20:34

So that's a, going off of the element of your book that specifically involves the

20:40

Trinity, that's a very applicable question there, Joe. Yeah, well I think it's important to understand the difference between doctrine, or dogma, and that is characteristic of a particular church, and the people who are associated with that church.

20:55

Oftentimes, for example, in Oneness Pentecostalism, the doctrine itself is heresy.

21:01

To deny that God has eternally existed in three persons is unorthodox, it is heretical, and while they are still affirming these three persons, they view it in a modality, where there was the

21:15

Father and then the Son. So it is a heresy that can lead people away from the truth of the

21:23

Gospel. It's possible, it's certainly confusing, and it really blinds us to the fullness of who

21:29

God is. So while it is a heresy that we need to address and correct and speak against, when dealing with people associated with that church, it's important to know that they may not understand or embrace the church's official dogma.

21:43

And so I think when you're dealing with people, it's important to deal with them on a one -on -one basis, and to always bring it back to the

21:50

Word with kindness, but with clarity, and with conviction. We need to be patient with them, just as hopefully people are patient with us, as we need to learn and grow, but not shrink back from affirming and declaring the truth, and declaring what is not true or what is heresy.

22:08

In terms of affirming them as a group, as brothers and sisters, once you speak about them as a group,

22:16

I don't think we can call them brothers and sisters, not because they're all lost and going to hell necessarily, but because their official dogma is heterodox.

22:28

And I'm assuming that, just like in many other circumstances, you would view leaders of that group who are vociferous zealous preachers of heresy, and also preachers of distrust towards Trinitarians, and declaring that we are pagans and worshiping a false god.

22:54

Now, I know that not all of them do that. There are some that have, over the decades, especially in the latter part of the 20th century, a lot of them have become more ecumenical with other professing

23:09

Christians and Trinitarians, but don't we have to view the evangelist and the leader in a different fashion, just in the same sense that we would view an average

23:20

Roman Catholic that may not even believe in trance dogmas that anathematize specific and unique Protestant teachings, we would view that Catholic who may even embrace either naively or in rebellion the true gospel, we would view that person different than when we would view

23:40

Pope Francis, for instance. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, just in general, even among evangelicals and Baptists, I have a lot less patience with leaders than I do with, you know, people that are in the church.

23:55

We hold leaders to a high standard because they're responsible for their teaching or their leading, and so when we're dealing with people who are preaching and teaching with knowledge, false doctrines, we have to deal with them,

24:08

I think, directly and even publicly. So I think that, you know, those who are, well,

24:15

I'll put it this way, I'll be as blunt as I can, I think that it's... when I was converted, I didn't understand the

24:21

Trinity at all. I said something about Jesus being the Son of God, and somebody said, well,

24:26

He's also God Himself, and I went, no, He's the Son of God. There's God the Father and then Jesus, and they opened up the

24:31

Bible and showed me, and the truth of God persuaded me. And so I think there's a difference between somebody being ignorant or uninformed and a teacher who is knowingly rejecting the truth and teaching it.

24:45

That person, I cannot be persuaded that they are a believer at all. And by the way,

24:50

I want to give my own plug for another book, The Forgotten Trinity by Dr. James R. White, who many of you who listen to this program are very familiar with Dr.

25:00

White, who is a Reformed Baptist elder in Phoenix, Arizona, and a prolific writer and debater and apologist.

25:08

He wrote the book The Forgotten Trinity, which you can get from solid -ground -books .com,

25:14

solid -ground -books .com, or from the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

25:22

C -V -B -B -S, that's Cumberland Valley, C -V, Bible Book, B -B, Service, S .com.

25:30

They will both be more than happy to fulfill or fill your order for you, and also

25:37

Joe's book, or books, I should say, by contacting those two organizations who both sponsor

25:44

Iron Sharpens Iron. And we do have another couple of questions from a listener in Staten Island.

25:51

Debbie says, we know the word Trinity is not in Scripture. Although the word

25:58

Trinity does not appear in Scripture, how do the Scriptures properly give revelation of the understanding of the doctrine of the

26:04

Trinity throughout the Bible, and which Scriptures strongly give revelation and understanding of the doctrine of the

26:10

Trinity? And that could take five shows, but as briefly as you can, because I do want to get into the meat of your book in regard to how the

26:22

Trinity specifically ministered to you in your trials through the different offices of the three persons of the

26:31

Trinity. But if you could, as briefly as possible, reply to Debbie in Staten Island.

26:38

Well, the key passage that was really persuasive for me was with Matthew 28.

26:46

And you know, it's the Great Commission, and there Jesus is commanding his disciples. He says, you know, all authority has been given to me in heaven and earth.

26:54

And he tells his disciples to go and to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the

27:02

Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And when he says that, he doesn't say baptizing them in the name of the

27:09

Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, but baptizing them in the name of the Father and the

27:15

Son and the Holy Spirit. And that was one of those passages that, especially as a young believer who didn't grow up with an understanding of the

27:23

Trinity, that didn't... I mean, it was somewhat confusing, but it was so exciting to see that here in this fundamental call to make disciples, that with it comes a knowledge of a

27:38

Trinitarian God, that he exists as these three persons sharing this one name or one nature.

27:46

So you know, that was huge for me. I would say start there.

27:53

And then there are many triadic passages in the Scripture that speak of, you know, there is one

28:00

God from whom all things exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ. You know, putting them together as existing simultaneously.

28:11

So I think that's 1 Corinthians 8, you know, there's 1 John, or I think the

28:16

Gospel of John, you know, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the

28:22

Word was God. And we see that we have, for example, passages that speak of the person of Jesus Christ and the person of God the

28:33

Father as both coexisting, being co -eternal, and being equal at the same time.

28:40

So there isn't one passage that wraps up the Trinity nice and neat for anyone, but it is more of something that comes about as we read the whole counsel of God, and through the discipline of systematic theology, we come to see who our

28:57

God is and how he has existed. We're gonna go to a break, but before we do go to the break, I might as well read

29:03

Debbie from Staten Island's second question, because it's pretty good,

29:08

I think, and this way you could mill it over during the station break. Debbie's second question was, how can we correctly understand the subordination in the

29:20

Trinity without being led away through error of a false understanding or a false view that Jesus is not

29:26

God when he said here in the passages of Scripture, the Father is greater than I?

29:33

And that's a very good question, because there is a that makes even amongst

29:39

Trinitarians or professing Trinitarians a false understanding of subordinationism.

29:45

But anyway, we're gonna be going to a break right now, perhaps you could respond to that, and if you have any questions, those of you listening, please give us a call.

29:55

I'm sorry, not a call, please shoot us an email. I'm still regurgitating things from the old

30:01

Iron Sharpens Iron when we took phone calls. Shoot us an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

30:07

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Include your first name, city, and state, and country if outside the

30:12

USA. We'll be right back. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

30:18

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the

30:24

NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation. The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the

30:34

NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference

30:44

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print

30:50

Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

30:55

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com.

31:00

That's nasbible .com. Tired of box store Christianity?

31:06

Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

31:13

And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

31:20

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

31:30

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

31:39

631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

31:47

That's wrbc .us. Welcome back.

31:54

This is Chris Arns, and if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Joe Thorne, and we are discussing his book,

32:02

Experiencing the Trinity, The Grace of God for the People of God. And if you could comment on Debbie from Staten Island's question on a subordination role that while on earth

32:19

Christ performed? Yes, yes. So I think it's fair to say, and there's debate about this, but I think it's fair to say that there is some kind of economic subordination within the

32:31

Trinity in that, you know, that Jesus was sent by the Father, and throughout his ministry he says,

32:38

I have come to do not my will but the Father's will. Of course, he and the Father send the Holy Spirit.

32:44

So while they are co -equal, co -eternal, we're talking about one God in three persons, they all work together both in creation and redemption, and yet they have some different function.

32:58

But when it comes to the question that she asked, you know, I think it's John 14 when Jesus says, you know, the

33:05

Father is greater than I. And, you know, I don't have easy answers for that, but here's what

33:11

I would say when Jesus says things like that. You know, Jesus, it says in Hebrews, was made for a little while lower than the angel.

33:21

And when it says that, it says that it means that in the Incarnation, when the Son took on human flesh, that he was in that fleshly period, right, that he was as a man in a non -exalted state, so to speak.

33:39

He was made lower than the angels in becoming one of us, and he fulfilled all righteousness, he submitted himself to the will of the

33:49

Father, he fulfilled all the law for us, and he died on the cross to make atonement for our sins and to propitiate the wrath of the

33:57

Father, so that through his mediatorial work, he can ransom a people for his own possession, he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and in all of that, he was given authority, and he is exalted above every other name, he is glorified now in heaven, and we await for his return.

34:16

So when he says in that moment, during his earthly ministry, that the Father is greater than him, I don't think that we can say, well, we can't say that Jesus is less than God the

34:27

Father in an ontological sense, right, or in a, speaking of his very nature, but that during his earthly ministry, when he took on flesh, he was in this state of humanity where he was fulfilling righteousness and accomplishing salvation for all who would believe.

34:50

So I would look at Hebrews 2 to see that, and the book of Hebrews, I think her name was Debbie, I would encourage her to read the book of Hebrews, because that's going to provide a lot of good answers for you in seeing how

35:03

Christ is better and more exalted than all that had come before him, and it explains who he is in his nature as the

35:13

God -man. We do have another listener in Palmdale, California, and I hope he doesn't mind that I'm going to announce his whole name, because he's quite well known amongst

35:25

Performed Baptists, and I'm going to use this as an opportunity to invite him on my radio program very soon. He actually was a guest a number of years ago on the old

35:33

Iron Sharpens Iron, but Richard Barcelos is listening in Palmdale, California, and he says,

35:38

Joe, I noticed you wrote an endorsement for Sam Renahan's new book, God Without Passions, a primer.

35:46

Can you tell us why you endorsed it, and who will it help, and why do you think it ought to be read, assuming that you do think that, and how this book helps understanding the doctrine of the

35:58

Trinity? And this, obviously, this book, it is no secret to Reformed Baptists, what came out of a controversy, an in -house controversy over the passions of God and so on, but if you could comment on Richard Barcelos's question.

36:18

Yeah, you know, it's funny when I get asked to endorse a book, I always say, well, send it my way and I'll read it, and I'll let you know, basically.

36:28

But in this case, I already knew where the author was coming from, and I'm excited about the subject.

36:36

I think divine impassibility is incredibly important. It's very relevant, not just for in -house debate, but it's relevant to our faith and to our understanding of who

36:47

God is, and how we understand what he is doing, not only in the pages of Scripture, but in our lives, and how does

36:54

God feel about us. Really, that's kind of getting at the heart of it, and so it's a fantastic book,

37:01

I think, to say that, to try to unpack what this is all about, divine impassibility,

37:07

I think it's... we wouldn't be able to cover it here and do it justice, but I'll say this, that if you want a better understanding of what

37:16

Scripture means, when it says that God repents of what he has done, or when

37:22

God loved, if you want a better understanding of what

37:27

Scripture says in there, a great place to start, maybe the best place to start, is to pick up that primer on divine impassibility by Sam.

37:37

Great, and we have one more, well right now we have one more listener from Toronto, Canada.

37:48

Brian says, with all due respect, I disagree with the view expressed about oneness and heretics, with individuals being heretics or not.

37:57

I would say that even the lay members of oneness would be heretics along with the leadership, based on Matthew 23 15, and of course he has quite a lengthy email here that we can't take time to read right now, but I think that you were pretty clear that there are people in churches that don't even really know what the official positions of the churches are.

38:21

I mean, I even know people who are members of Calvinistic churches, and then when you're having a conversation with them, you become, it becomes very clear that these people don't really understand the doctrines of grace.

38:34

Of course. So I think that's really what you were saying. I mean, I don't want to speak for you though.

38:39

Go ahead, if you could just... Well, I mean, in Matthew 23 15, Jesus says, woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourself.

38:54

And obviously we want to affirm what Scripture says there. The problem is, is that many of the people in these groups, or in these churches, are not proselytes.

39:03

They're actually not disciples. They happen to be there, they happen to be around it, but they haven't necessarily understood or embraced the false doctrine.

39:12

For example, I'm sure this guy wouldn't believe that every person in a local church is a believer. I mean, he can't believe that, can he?

39:19

So, I mean, just to kind of turn it back on yourself, brother, ask yourself, is every person who is in an evangelical church a believer?

39:26

Of course not. John Huss was a Catholic, and he was burned alive by the Catholic Church. So there you have, you know, people forget when they say that all

39:36

Catholics are damned, they forget that John Huss, one of our heroes of the faith, or Jan Hus, as he's sometimes called.

39:44

The issue is, do they embrace and believe heresy? Formal or informal?

39:50

If they do, they're damned. I was damned before I believed in Christ. And so, yeah, if they are a true disciple, if they embrace this false doctrine, then they are under the wrath of God, and they do not escape the wrath of God until they embrace the gospel.

40:08

And we do thank Brian in Toronto, Canada, for the question, nonetheless, and speak a little bit about how the different persons of the

40:21

Holy Spirit, I'm sorry, different persons of the Trinity, excuse me, ministered to you during this deep trial that you were in.

40:30

How they differently misministered to you. Okay, first I gotta say, when you said different persons of the Holy Spirit, I thought you were gonna go

40:36

Benny Hinn. I said that mid -cough, and the wrong word came out.

40:45

Yeah, I'll put it this way. I love my wife, and we've been married for 18 years, and I love her now more than I did when we got married.

40:59

I didn't think that'd be possible. But the more I come to know her, the more I know about her, the more I just absolutely love her, and so thankful for her.

41:08

And it's the same with God. The more I come to understand and embrace and experience who God is, the more

41:14

I marvel at Him, love Him, and worship Him. And so understanding God as Father, right, that He doesn't, that He's not just God, but He is

41:24

God the Father who relates to me as one of His children, and that He is interested in me, and loves me, and gives me good gifts, ultimately the

41:37

Holy Spirit, right? He gives me these good gifts because He is my Father, and every good thing in my life comes from God.

41:42

And so I can rejoice in God as Father, as the one who is not only omniscient, but who knows me, who is not only present, omnipresent, but who is with me, right, in all things the

41:55

Gospel. So I can embrace God who is Father, and present, and caring for me in the midst of my trial, and then

42:03

I consider God as the Son, right? God the Son who has walked through temptation and affliction, and not just to rescue me from my sin, but to show me that the path of affliction is oftentimes the path to glory, and it's typically the path to glory, right, the path to freedom and salvation.

42:23

And so when Christ walked through temptation and affliction, He did so on my behalf.

42:29

So wherever I fail, His success is credited to me. And then we're told that Christ, in the midst of my temptation and weaknesses,

42:37

He comes to my aid in a special way, to help me when I am suffering, because He has been tempted and tried in every way.

42:46

And then we have the Holy Spirit, right, who, you know, when I would lay on my floor in my office, and I would pray, and cry, and ask

42:53

God for grace, and I wouldn't experience a lot of grace during that. I just, we didn't find much relief for about a year and a half.

43:01

And when I would go through that, and I would pray, and I would sweat, the Spirit, we're told, intercedes, right, with groanings too deep for words.

43:10

I don't know what to say, but the Spirit is there with me to help me, to fill me, to compel me, to strengthen my faith, to lead me in the way that I'm supposed to go.

43:19

And so the more that we understand of who God is, the more equipped we are to experience

43:27

Him, and walk with Him. And I'll say one other thing. One of the key ways that we persevere through affliction and difficulty is by praising

43:36

God, right, is by adoring Him for who He is, and trusting Him. And if you don't understand who the

43:42

Trinity, or how the Trinity works, right, if we don't understand who God is as triune, then we are ill -equipped to praise

43:49

Him, to adore Him, and we're even short -cutting ourselves in terms of how to pray for Him, because we don't know exactly who

43:57

He is, or what He does. So the Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity, really became salvation for me in an experiential way as I was going through those dark periods.

44:08

We have to go to our final break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question

44:13

I'm sorry though we have given away all of our copies that were made available to us of Joe Thorne's book on Experiencing the

44:24

Trinity, but we would still love to hear from you. And the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

44:31

chrisarnson at gmail .com. But all of you whose questions I read on the air are getting a free copy of Experiencing the

44:40

Trinity by Joe Thorne, and specifically Richard Barcellos wanted to make sure he was getting his.

44:46

So I just wanted to assure you, Richard, you're getting yours and so are all the others whose questions

44:52

I've already read. And for those of you who didn't understand Joe's joke when

44:58

I said three persons of the Holy Spirit, Benny Hinn years ago was on record in a recording, in a recorded service, where he said that there were nine persons of the

45:10

Trinity because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each were a Trinity in and of themselves.

45:17

So that's where where he was going with that, but I assure you I did not believe. We'll be right back after these messages so don't go away.

45:27

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

45:35

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

45:42

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

45:50

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

45:56

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

46:02

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

46:11

That's linbrookbaptist .org. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

46:19

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable

46:25

Bible translation. The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the

46:31

NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference

46:41

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print

46:47

Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

46:52

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com.

46:57

That's nasbible .com. Introducing 1031

47:10

Sermon Jams. Sermon Jams. But now for the good news. That sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears, especially if you're like me and you know that you don't need

47:25

Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are. If you'd like to learn more about 1031

47:30

Sermon Jams, visit us at our website at 1031SermonJams .com or follow us on Twitter or Facebook.

47:37

It's about God and his glory and the gospel is about man and his sin. Welcome back.

47:42

This is Chris Arnzen and we have been interviewing Joe Thorne on his book Experiencing the

47:47

Trinity. And Joe, you are going to be involved in a legacy conference in the very near future.

47:54

If you could let our listeners know something about this conference and the dates and so on. Man, I love conferences.

48:01

Well, I like good conferences. I guess I should be very clear. I love good conferences where the theology is rich and deep and experiential and where the people of God are serious about the things of God.

48:14

So I go to a few, and the legacy conference in Chicago is easily one of the highlights of the year for me.

48:23

And this year it just might be the best conference of the year, really. It's a fantastic conference. It happens in Chicago, Illinois.

48:30

In fact, it's being hosted at Moody Bible Institute and it runs from July, really, 23rd, 24th, 25th, and they even have things happening on the 26th.

48:42

And it is a theology conference, really, where the emphasis is on really targeting, it mostly targets young adults.

48:55

It's largely an urban and diverse audience there, and they have over 80 workshops with great teaching.

49:06

They have fantastic preachers that come up and bring the word. We'll have

49:11

D .A. Horton this year. I'll only be on the main stage for a panel discussion, but I'll be with LaCroix and Alicia Horton discussing the people of God in diversity.

49:26

There'll be spoken word experiences, so people are doing poetic spoken word, really powerful stuff.

49:33

There will be Sabidia Mobile will be there teaching, which is just fantastic, and we'll have a bunch of others.

49:42

So I'll tell you what, I was there last year doing a breakout session, and I can definitely say this.

49:49

Out of all the workshops that I've taught, at all the conferences, these were the sharpest, brightest, most engaged people of all time.

49:57

So if you're in the Chicagoland area, or if you want to drive up, register, be there. It's going to be fantastic.

50:04

And Sabiti Anyabwile, for those of our listeners unfamiliar with him, he is a former Muslim who

50:10

I have had on Iron Sharpens Iron in the past, between 2006 and 11, and he's a really wonderful brother, a humble brother, a brilliant brother, and he kept his

50:20

Muslim name even though he, I guess you would call him a revert. He was raised in a

50:27

Christian home, became a Muslim, and returned to the true Christ of Scripture, and he kept his

50:33

Muslim name as a tool of evangelism. And I'm one of the few people who can pronounce his name correctly, and evidently so are you.

50:39

So we do have a listener in Phoenix, Arizona, who is a question for you anyway.

50:50

First he says, have you ever been a thorn in someone's flesh? Perhaps your wife would joke about your name,

50:56

I guess. And then he says, seriously, do you focus on experiential preaching? I guess he's referring to that which is a fruit of the

51:06

Dutch Reformation, but perhaps he's thinking of something else, experiential Calvinism, but if you want to address that.

51:12

And this is from Shaney in Phoenix, Arizona. Yeah, I've kind of written quite a bit about experiential theology, and yes,

51:25

I think that especially in the Reformed tradition today, the greatest need is for our preachers and teachers to not just clearly articulate the truth propositionally, but to show the heart into the

51:42

Christian life at all times. So whether we're talking about the doctrine of original sin or justification by faith alone, the doctrine of providence, whatever it is, it's important for us to show that these are doctrines that are meant not to be known, not just to be memorized, but to be experienced by faith as it relates to the person and the work of God in the gospel for us.

52:09

So yeah, I do preaching coaching these days with people, some of the guys in our network and others, and this is frequently the weak spot, where it's not enough to just parrot truth, right, because we can get a commentary for that if we're walking through the

52:26

Bible, or they can pick up a systematic theology. The preacher has to make sure that those truths are being, in preaching those truths, they're drawing lines of connection to the heart and the faith of believers.

52:39

And I really want to make sure that you have enough time to really unburden your heart so that the listeners have what you most want etched on their hearts and minds before they leave the program, is spoken by you, and I also want to extend an invitation to, without question, have you back on Iron Sharpens Iron again to discuss your other book,

53:04

Note to Self, which is something that I say a lot right before some kind of a joke about something that I need to remember.

53:12

But if you could, really unburden your heart for our listeners right now and impress upon them what they need to know most as far as you can convey to them.

53:22

Right, and thank you Chris, this was a lot of fun and I would love to come back anytime, especially if you need a fill -in.

53:33

I'm giving you a well -in -advance invitation this time. I would say this in light of my book and just kind of where God has brought me.

53:43

You, all of us, right, but hear this, you are far more sinful and weak than you know, and much of our problem is that we think that we can handle this life, our sin, our temptations, and our afflictions on our own.

54:02

You won't say that, but you function that way. And your weakness can ruin you if you are not drawing near to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

54:15

You have to see your weakness, you have to embrace your weakness so that you can more fully embrace your sovereign

54:22

God who loves you, who is with you, and who will always support you even through the most dark and difficult days.

54:31

Not just in my life, and I think I've had it pretty easy. I've walked with so many people who have walked through the valley of the shadow of death.

54:39

They have lost their children, they have lost their wives or their husbands, they have lost their health, they are losing their lives, and in the midst of it all, when they see their weakness, embrace it, and praise the

54:52

God who is there, they find strength and confidence that they didn't know was possible, because it's not rooted in themselves, it's rooted in the

55:00

Lord. And so if you want to persevere in faith, if you want to become the person that you're designed to be, you can only find it in denying yourself and looking to Jesus Christ and drawing near by faith.

55:13

And make sure that as you're doing that, you're not doing that on your own. Make sure that you are around other believers in a local church who are with you, who love you, and who preach the truth of God.

55:23

There you will find help for yourself. In fact, I'd like you to touch a little bit more on that before we leave.

55:31

There is a danger that is rampant out there, as you are fully aware,

55:36

Joe, the danger of the maverick Christians. I have met many, many lone wolf

55:43

Christians who don't think that they need the church. They perhaps are counteracting the heresy of Rome that believes that the church has far more of a scriptural role in the salvation of sinners than they ought to claim.

56:03

And these folks who are the lone wolf type, just running as far away from that as they can, seem to have gone into another heresy on the 180 degree opposite end of the spectrum, where they don't think that they need pastors or elders, they don't find a specific sentence in the

56:23

Bible that specifically says you must be a member of a church, that kind of thing. Isn't this a very dangerous thing?

56:29

It's extremely dangerous. I'm gonna be really candid here. We have a couple of minutes. Let me say this. Stop reading

56:35

George Barna and start reading the Bible. George Barna sets up these guys, these maverick

56:42

Christians, these girls, as if they are these revolutionaries who are gonna issue in a new era of healthy

56:48

Christian living and faith, and it's not. Let me put it this way. You can't become who you're supposed to be, and you cannot do what

56:56

God calls you to do outside of the local church. You simply cannot do it. Because you need the local church.

57:02

You need to be able to commit yourself to other believers in such a way where they can speak into your life and hold you accountable, where you can do the same for them, so that, you know, as your show is all about, right, so that iron can sharpen iron in the context where we have proper leadership given to us by God, where preaching and teaching and the sacraments are put in place, where discipline can be practiced with love and truth.

57:24

If you step outside of the local assembly where there is no accountability, no discipline, no love or authority, then you are merely bringing yourself into the center of a

57:37

Christian experience where it's just you and Jesus. This New Testament knows, and nor the

57:42

Old Testament, knows nothing about this kind of faith. We are called to be together, confessing one faith and one

57:49

Lord, one baptism, right? All together as one. So I just don't think you can do what God calls you to do.

57:54

Consider all the commands in the New Testament. How are you supposed to do those outside of the context of the local church?

58:00

I don't think you can. Yeah, there's a lot of arrogance in that and pride, isn't there?

58:06

People think that they don't need teachers, they've got it all together, and that every pastor is a sinner in some level, so who is he going to judge me or discipline me or have authority over me?

58:21

It's really a proud and arrogant thing, isn't it? It is, and I have, like,

58:27

I'm one of the elders at our church, and I answer to them, just like everybody else in the church answers to the elders, and if I am pursuing sin and I'm not repentant, then

58:39

I will be held accountable by those elders. And so, yes, we are ill -equipped, let's be honest, we are ill -equipped to understand what

58:49

God wants us to understand without teachers. That's just how the New Testament presents it. We had

58:54

God appoint teachers and preachers for specific purposes, so we are to submit ourselves to them as they are accurately preaching the

59:00

Word of God. And so I need teachers and preachers, and praise the Lord that we have 2 ,000 years of church history where we can pull from the best teachers throughout this church history.

59:12

So I need it, we all need it, it's not as if the elders are above everybody else and are not being held accountable, but for order, and for protection, and for safety, and for the full use of the gifts of the

59:24

Holy Spirit, we have to have local churches that are led by servant leaders who are elders who actually do shepherding, not just make decisions, but who shepherd the people, and people who are ready to not just work alongside elders and listen to them, but to be considered co -laborers in the gospel.

59:42

And we're out of time, Joe, and it's joethorn .net. Please remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater