March 1, 2021 Show with Dr. Robert E. Brunansky on “Ecclesiology: The Missing Doctrine in Evangelicalism”

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this first day of March 2021.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest. This will be his second interview with us on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

His name is Dr. Robert E. Bernanski and he is pastor of Desert Hills Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

We are going to be discussing this time ecclesiology the missing doctrine in evangelism and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Robert E. Bernanski. Thanks a lot Chris. It's great to be here. I appreciate you having me back on the show.

It's my pleasure brother and send my greetings to a member of your church that I miss dearly.

I miss the days when he was coming out to Long Island to assist Dr. James R.

White of Alpha and Omega Ministries in the production of the recording and production of the debates that I orchestrated for over a decade on Long Island and I'm speaking of Rich Pierce who is the president of Dr.

White's ministry Alpha and Omega Ministries and just send my greetings to him and I hope we get an opportunity to see him soon.

I hope he's coming to the G3 conference this fall. I know that Dr. White is on the speaking roster again so I hope

Rich will be accompanying him. I'll let him know that you're hoping to see him there.

We put Rich to work helping out with our live stream and now he's back in the saddle teaching one of our adult fellowship groups so you know his gifts are well used at Desert Hills.

We're grateful to have him there. Amen and I'm very grateful for him and his friendship and I'm also grateful that he introduced me to you so it's been a pleasure having you on the program and I'm sure it will be a pleasure today and anybody who wants to hear and see an excellent message that Dr.

Bernanski delivered on the dividing line, that's James White's webcast when he filled in for Dr.

White, one of the occasions that he filled in, I don't know the exact title of it but it had to do with your congregation's refusal to shut down during the hysteria associated with the coronavirus pandemic and I think a lot of it had to do with masks and the statistical information if you could refresh my memory exactly what the theme was.

Yeah, so I've actually done a few guest appearances on the dividing line and the first one was back in May of last year and we did a discussion of the government's authority in the church and that was when we specifically talked about does the government have the authority to shut down the church at all under any circumstances but specifically in this context of what was happening with COVID back in May and pretty much every church that I was aware of was closed at the time we did that program except Desert Hills and the church where James White is an elder at Apologia and there were maybe a few others that I was aware of,

I'm sure there were ones I wasn't, but in the Greater Phoenix area, Sunday morning, Grove Pass Church is empty, totally shut down and so we talked about that and then back in December we had an episode called

To Mask or Not to Mask. That's probably the one I saw. Okay, yeah, and we talked in that episode about masks and some of the alleged science on masks and does the church have the authority to tell people to wear a mask, that they have to wear a mask to come to worship and yes, it was a fun topic to discuss and I got a lot of feedback on that and I think a lot of people were encouraged to be reminded that Christ is

Lord of the church. Amen. And I actually have my first doctor appointment with a new general practitioner that I hope will be my permanent doctor,

Dr. Joel Yeager, who is actually a guest on this program. He is a

Christian and a Reformed Christian and he does not believe in the myths of masks.

He does not require them for either his staff or his patients at his medical practice here in Pennsylvania.

So I'm looking forward to my first visit, not that I ever am really looking forward to a doctor's visit, but it will be refreshing though not to be scolded for not having my mask above my nose and other things that I've been experiencing from people who should know better or do know better and just are going with the flow of the leftist tyranny that's going on.

Absolutely. Yeah, the doctor that I go to here, he doesn't require you to wear a mask. They have special provisions made for maskless people like me, but I'm grateful that they recognize that, hey, you should have that option.

Great. Well, tell our listeners about Desert Hills Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona. Desert Hills Bible Church is a non -denominational

Bible -centered church and averaging maybe seven to eight hundred attendees a week and it's in the north part of Phoenix.

It's confessionally Reformed now, which we weren't last time I was on the program.

We updated our Statement of Faith and we were part of the Evangelical Free Church of America and due to the woke theology that has crept into that and various things that they were doing that were starting to compromise in areas of homosexuality and feminism.

Really? Yeah, yeah. We ended up leaving the EFCA and we shed the last vestiges of that at our

January Congregational meeting and adopted a Reformed confession that we wrote in -house because we're not

Sabbatarian, so there wasn't one that we really wanted to adopt wholesale. But, yeah, so that's what's going on at Desert Hills.

We've got a lot of great things that God is doing there. We're having a baptism service coming up this

Sunday night and I think our Community Life Pastor told me he's interviewed ten people for that baptism service, which is just fantastic.

We're praising God for that, for people that are coming to know the Lord and wanting to follow

Him and in obedience. Well, if anybody wants to know, I'm sorry, I started to speak before you were finished.

Continue. I was going to say, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel if you want. We're Desert Hills Bible Church on YouTube in Phoenix and sermons are posted every week.

We live stream at 10 a .m. Mountain Standard Time. So, a lot of archive.

I think we've got sermons going back six years. On the YouTube channel now, we've got a podcast. So, whatever podcast platform you use, our podcast should be available.

If you want to download the audio of the sermons, you can do that. Just search for Desert Hills Bible Church and you'll be able to find all of our content online.

And the website is DesertHillsChurch .com. DesertHillsChurch .com.

And going back, just briefly, I don't want to derail the topic today, but as far as the Evangelical Free Church goes, is it still pretty much very close to Baptistic local autonomy of congregations and independence where, even though some of the horrific things you just mentioned have crept into the denomination, are these things being imposed on all congregations in the denomination, or is there still a lot of liberty for independence in that denomination?

Yeah, they didn't kick us out. I mean, we left voluntarily. No, but what I mean is, are they imposing softer views on homosexuality on you or anybody else that was in the denomination?

No, they're not forcing the issue. You're welcome to stay in. And they would say, well, we don't affirm homosexuality, but when you put your name as the top sponsor for a conference advocating homosexuality in the church, you can say what you want, that you don't advocate it.

Right. You're sending your leadership to learn that. You're sending your leadership to think that way.

So eventually, either you're ignorant, you shouldn't be in leadership because you have no discernment, or you're trying to pull it in the back door and convince your leadership slowly over time that it's an acceptable practice, when it's not.

It's clearly sinful in Scripture. They don't impose it on the churches, not in any direct way.

There was nothing that they were trying to make us do as a church, but we were not comfortable donating our money to have that money go to sponsor a conference that's promoting homosexuality and religious syncretism and feminism.

So when I talked to the president of the USDA and the district superintendent for our district, the response was essentially, not only are we doing that, we're going to be doing more of it.

Wow. Well, I've got to do a program on that sometime, because I have had many friendships with people in the

Evangelical Free Church, and I don't know where they're standing right now, because this is all new information to me, all news to me.

Yeah, we've got a couple articles about it on our church website, on our blog. How about Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois?

Are they succumbing to this as well? You know, I'm not familiar. I don't really follow what's going on there at that school.

I'm assuming that is an official Evangelical Free school, isn't it? It is, yeah.

And then Trinity Western University up in Canada is also an official

EFCA school. And so, you know, I don't follow what's going on.

Even when we were part of the EFCA, you know, I graduated from Master's Seminary, and I follow much more closely what's going on there, or at the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where I got my Ph .D., than I do at Trinity. I just never was affiliated with it.

I understand. Now, one more thing, because it's kind of crucial, since we brought it up. We don't want to be accused by anyone of giving false information, but when you say that a promotion of homosexuality is taking place at Evangelical Free Church conferences,

I know, and I'm not putting my seal of approval on even this.

I'm very opposed to even the idea of there being an existence of gay

Christians, quote unquote, who are chaste and celibate, or who marry people of the opposite sex, but still identify themselves as gay.

I'm very opposed to all of that. And I question the legitimacy of the regeneration of anybody who basically waves the white flag to the unnatural and abominable sin of homosexuality, and wears it as an identity, even if they claim chastity and celibacy.

So, I'm very opposed to that. But is that what they are promoting, or are they actually promoting the activity?

Well, just to make a careful distinction, the EFCA itself is not promoting homosexuality, but they're promoting conferences that other people are putting on that are promoting it.

Wow. And, yeah, so, you won't go, as far as I know, to EFCA 1 or an official

EFCA district conference and have homosexuals on the platform, things like that.

But they were the platinum sponsor for a conference called Mosaics two years ago, almost two years ago, because I guess there wouldn't have been any conferences last year because of COVID.

So, it would have been in 2019. And at this conference, they had sessions on homosexuality, and the leaders of these sessions come from churches where they have homosexuals on staff, where they have homosexual members of the church, they have position papers explaining why that is the right thing to do.

So, again, the EFCA would say, well, homosexuality is a sin and we don't support it.

But then the money that is being donated to the EFCA from EFCA churches is being used to sponsor conferences that contradict their statement.

Now, would it be as far as to people involved in the sexual sin who are living together or people who are actually, quote, quote, married to other men, men married to other men, women married to other women, and on and on we could go with the ways this depraved sin is manifested?

Yeah, yeah. So, I have a link, I think, on our church website to a position paper that one of the speakers has.

It's a church out in LA, and yeah, they have, they recognize gay marriage as legitimate.

You know, they have gay, quote, unquote, married couples in the church that serve in ministry.

Wow. So, it's not, I mean, it's not like, hey, like, I think any

Bible -believing Christian would say to a homosexual neighbor, we would love to minister the

Word of God to you and to call you to repentance. Yeah. And to disciple you and help you. You know, there's no hatred for homosexuals.

There's a hatred for homosexuality. Right. Just like there is for adultery or fornication or murder, you know, or any other sin, but the homosexual is somebody that's, you know, they're dead in their sins.

They need the gospel of Christ. Amen. If you really love a homosexual, you have to hate homosexuality.

Absolutely. If you have a biblical love for them, because you want to see them rescued from something that will not only likely end their lives on earth early, especially if they are male homosexual, but it will prevent them from enjoying eternal life with Christ.

So... Right. Yeah. 1 Corinthians 6, 9, right? Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Right. Well, we've definitely got to do a show on this. Maybe I could get several EV3 or former

EV3 pastors to speak on this whole phenomenon. Yeah, and I'll tell you,

I've been... I've talked to, you know, a number of pastors in the EV3 denomination, and there's probably a half dozen churches that have left since we left, that they have seen what's going on, and they have either made their exit or they're in the process of doing that, and we're helping them work through that.

Because it is a... It's a day and a time when the church has to stand up and say, we're not okay with this.

You know, we're not going to compromise. And one of the things that was said to me by one of the FCA leaders was, well, how many false teachers would you be okay with being at a conference?

I couldn't even believe I was asked the question. Zero was the answer I gave. You know, why would we have any wolves come in among the sheep, welcoming them?

I mean, you can't help it, in some senses, when they're pretending to be sheep and you don't know. You know, there are wolves that are in disguise and you don't find out right away, but when they're advertising that fact, and we know that they're false teachers, why on earth would we ever partner with them?

So, you know, it's the level of compromise, because, you know, in their minds, we have to do this to fulfill our mission.

We have to do this to be successful and reach people with the gospel. If we don't join forces with these people, we're not going to have a seat at the table, so to speak.

So, just total capitulation and compromise. And so, yeah, so we left, and now we're just a non -denominational church with a

Reformed theological perspective, and God has blessed that.

You know, the church has been growing phenomenally ever since we left the denomination, and we're seeing

God at work in just awesome ways, people coming. You know, what usually happens is when somebody comes to the church, they find out they don't agree with you about some doctrine, and they leave, right?

Well, that's not what I believe. And what we're seeing is people coming, and they're saying, Oh, my goodness, I've never heard this before.

I didn't even realize this was in Scripture. I'd never thought this in my whole life. I need to learn more about this.

And it's just the work of the Spirit of God, where what throughout most of my ministry would have caused people to leave, people are going,

Wow, this is, that's what the Bible says. Tell me more about this. And it's remarkable.

Well, I definitely opened up a can of worms, didn't I, by asking a simple question. And I definitely do want to pursue that program on the

EV3 denomination. Absolutely. Like I said, if your listeners want more info, they can go to our website, and I've written a few things on there about that.

And I talked a little bit about some of the EFCA stuff on the first dividing line I was on, too, towards the end of the program.

Okay. Well, today we are discussing ecclesiology, the missing doctrine in evangelism, and ecclesiology is one of those big book -learning words, especially if someone is a new believer or not a believer at all, because we do have, in addition to seasoned

Christians and pastors and even theologians listening to the show regularly, we have very often very new

Christians, and sometimes even non -Christians, like Muslims or people from other religions who make their identity known to me via email or on social media, sometimes atheists and agnostics.

Praise God they're listening. Amen. Well, please define ecclesiology for us.

Yeah, well, first of all, I want to talk about ecclesiology in the context of evangelicalism, not evangelism.

Oh, okay, because I don't know if that was a typo on your part or mine.

It was probably a typo on my part. But, yes, ecclesiology is a missing doctrine in evangelicalism, and it does impact our evangelism significantly.

But to your question, what is ecclesiology, it comes from two Greek words, ekklesia, which means church, and logos, which means word, and so it's the study of the church, the doctrine of the church.

And, like you said, it's one of those big words, you know, a lot of people just tune it out when they hear a word like that because they think that's just for scholars and pastors and, you know, theologians.

But, as R .C. Sproul would say, everyone is a theologian, so ecclesiology is something that everyone needs to understand.

But, you know, it's not just a big word, it's an area of doctrine that I think if you wanted to cause most church members to tune out your sermon, just announce at the beginning,

I'm going to be talking about ecclesiology this morning in the sermon. You know, it's one of those areas that people really don't think about, they don't even really care about.

They just assume their pastor knows how the church should run, and it's not something that they should really be concerned about.

Now, obviously, the position that you take personally and that Desert Hills Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona takes on ecclesiology would determine the thrust or the direction that you're going with this subject,

I'm assuming. So, what is your personal ecclesiology? Well, you know, this area covers a wide range of topics, all right?

So, to define ecclesiology in summary would be very difficult to do, because, you know, for example, ecclesiology touches on what is the church itself.

What are the ordinances or sacraments of the church? Are they ordinances? Are they sacraments?

You know, paedo -baptism, paedo -communion, believer -baptism, and so forth. Church polity, elders, deacons, pastors, you know, leaders, all of that, the authority structure of the church, the purpose of the church gathering, and qualified church leadership, the role of the church in the community.

And so, there's just so many different areas that this touches on. But there would be, even though a

Reformed Baptist such as myself, and someone who is Baptistic, if I'm gathering your description correctly, of Desert Hills Bible Church, you're not officially a

Baptist church, but you are Baptistic, if I'm not mistaken. Correct. There would be differences in some important aspects of ecclesiology that we would have from our friends and brothers and sisters who are in Presbyterian and other paedo -Baptist

Reformed denominations. It would, even though there would be a lot of overlap, there would be differences on hierarchical structure, and the whole issue of autonomy of congregations and independence, and even sometimes it affects or involves the ordinances of the church, also known as sacraments by some.

So, to start out the show, why don't you at least give somewhat of a summary of how you would describe your ecclesiology?

Right. So, we are, like you mentioned, we're Baptistic, so we teach and practice believer baptism at the church.

We are a little bit different than probably a typical Baptist church in that we don't require someone to be baptized as a believer to be a member, if they are convinced in their own mind that they were baptized in a

Presbyterian church. Right, that would be something that the EV3 denomination holds to. Right, and so we're still comfortable if a

Presbyterian comes in and says, you know, I was baptized as an infant, and I'm a believer, and that's what

I believe. Okay, that's fine. We don't teach that, we don't practice that. They would have to understand we're not going to baptize your children in this church, but you're welcome to be a member of the church as long as you've been baptized in a way that accords with your understanding of that.

As far as the Lord's Supper, I mean, within a range. If you've been baptized in a Mormon church or something, that's not going to work.

But, you know, if you've been baptized in an Orthodox manner that is accepted as, you know, within the realm of the

Gospel. How about if you're somebody from the Salvation Army or some other group that doesn't believe in baptism at all?

No, if you don't believe in baptism at all, then that's a conversation that we need to have about what the

New Testament teaches, and you wouldn't be able to become a member of the church unless you agreed that you would be baptized. And, of course,

I should clarify, you don't believe in water baptism at all. Sure, right. The ordinance.

You know what's interesting about this? You know, we talk about, we have people coming from all different backgrounds and all different churches, and one of the things that I've seen that's in common with the new folks that are coming is a lot of them, or some of them anyways, haven't been baptized as believers.

Forever. And they've been in their previous churches for years, sometimes decades, as members.

And you ask, well, how come you've never been baptized? Well, my church just never made a big deal about it. I didn't, you know,

I don't, now I've been a believer so long and nobody ever approached me about it, it seems awkward or whatever to do it at this point.

And you see this breakdown in ecclesiology, just in this very simple illustration of how many people will come and their church never baptized them, never taught them about baptism, never encouraged them to be baptized, allowed them to be fully functioning members of the church without following Christ's command to be baptized.

It's shocking. And, you know, these are evangelical churches, and you would maybe not even know that, just to look at some of the things they say they believe.

But it's been surprising to the elders at our church at Desert Hills how many people are coming who have never been baptized.

And we have to go to our first break right now, if anybody has a question of their own on ecclesiology, the missing doctrine of evangelicalism.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, you disagree with your own pastor on something we are addressing today, or your own denomination, or you're even a pastor who disagrees with his fellow elders or denomination over something, you'd rather not identify yourself.

We fully understand that. Or, if it's a pastoral question that would lend you to want to remain anonymous, since we have a pastor on today, we tend to allow a broader scope of questions outside of a main topic, because sometimes our show may be the only opportunity that a listener has to actually ask a pastor about something.

But, obviously, those are areas where you can remain anonymous. But, if it's just a general question, a question on ecclesiology, on what the

Bible has to say about it, on history, etc., please give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence, at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Dr. Rob Bernanski of Desert Hills Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, on Ecclesiology, the

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Give the gift of health and don't be a dead end to truth. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is

Dr. Robert E. Brunansky, pastor of Desert Hills Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

We are discussing Ecclesiology, the Missing Doctrine in Evangelicalism.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And Dr. Rob, how is, in your opinion,

Ecclesiology a missing doctrine from Evangelicalism? There are a lot of things missing from modern day

Evangelicalism that give me great reason for sorrow and distress and horror at times.

And Ecclesiology typically would not be the first thing that pops into my head.

I'm not saying that I have a correct reaction to what's missing from Evangelicalism.

I'm just saying that that's not the immediate thing that would pop into my head. And there are also a lot of things that are in modern day

Evangelicalism that don't belong in any church or in the mind or the lips or the writings of anyone who professes to be a follower of Christ.

But if you could, why is this such an important issue to you and what's missing?

In what way is it missing? I think if you just look at the fundamental first question that should be asked in Ecclesiology is, what is the church?

And I don't think most people in Evangelicalism have a sufficient answer to that question.

I don't think they really know what the church is, what it's supposed to do, who is supposed to lead it, what is its function in the community, what is the point of the ordinances or the sacraments, who is qualified to be in leadership in the church, and what authority do they have, what authority do they not have, how do they submit to Christ, what is the role of Scripture in the church.

And if you think about this, I mean, where are most believers, where do they think they're getting discipled?

Where do they think they're learning about what it means to be a follower of Christ? Well, that's at the church.

And, of course, you know, a lot of cultural influences are coming in, maybe some people even unaware of how much they're being influenced by the culture, but the primary place where believers are taught what to think and how to think and about truth and about Christ is in the church, and if the church doesn't know who it is or why it exists or what it's supposed to do, you're going to have

Christians who are immature and who do not even understand their role or their calling as believers.

And I think that that has just become evident in so many problems that the church, that believers are facing as Christians, come because they don't understand the role of the church, and the church is not leading them and discipling them as it ought to, because the church has gone astray in understanding even its own identity.

Now, I brought this up, and guests have brought this up on my show in the past, but I think it bears repeating. Some of the most well -known and beloved figures in Christendom have failed miserably in this area, and the one that immediately comes to mind is the late

Billy Graham. There have been many people who have reported to me over the years how dismayed they were to discover that the

Billy Graham Association, now I don't know if any changes are taking place and if they are changes that will improve things or make them more unbiblical, but if you were to volunteer to be a counselor at a

Billy Graham crusade, to be waiting for those that come forward to confess their sin and to request

Christ to come into their lives, or as the very common evangelical slogan goes, invite

Jesus into their hearts, etc., you are forbidden as a counselor in the

Billy Graham Crusade Association to refer someone to a biblically sound church or any specific church other than the churches or religions from which these people came.

That is a very disturbing reality, you know, sending the person who is lost, likely because they have been lied to about God and about salvation their entire lives because of a false religion they were raised in, and you're sending them back to that religion?

I mean, it's utterly mind -boggling. But is this one of the ways where ecclesiology is absent from evangelicalism in that there is perhaps such an overreaction to putting salvation in the hands of a priesthood, in a sacerdotal system like the

Church of Rome, there very often is an overreaction to that, where the church has little to no importance at all other than a nice add -on and a nice icing on the cake and a nice thing that would improve our lives as Christians and benefit us, but they're not viewed as something that go hand -in -hand with becoming a born -again believer.

If you could pick up where I left off there. Yeah, well, first of all, I think when you think about things like the

Billy Graham Association, without a doubt, God has used that in the lives of many people, for them to hear the gospel and come to Christ, and there's no denying that people have been saved through that ministry.

But you look at a ministry like the Billy Graham Association or Campus Crusade, and the rise of all of these parachurch ministries that are completely independent of the local church, or even some group of churches that would oversee them to make sure that their doctrine and leadership and all of those areas of any ministry are biblically sound, and if they begin to veer off, that they come under the authority of that church that can correct them or discipline them as need be.

And, you know, this is a fairly modern phenomenon in evangelicalism to have this proliferation of parachurch ministries that have no connection to a local church.

I understand there are things like, you know, the Master's Seminary is a parachurch situation. You know, it's a standalone seminary, but it is under the authority of Grace Community Church.

There's a group of elders that help oversee that, or at least they did when I was there. I assume that's still the case.

And so, you know, I'm not against the Church having these ministries that are specialized for various things and have people from multiple churches that help with them, or an evangelistic agency or a missions agency, but don't they need to come under the umbrella of the

Church? What is the role of the Church, then, in the world if we're parceling all these things out and they're no longer part of the

Church? They're their own independent entity. And so this is what creates part of that crisis, because now where do you send people who get saved at a conference that isn't tied to a church?

How do you select the churches? And there's no qualified Board of Elders to come alongside and say, these are the churches in this city that are sound and biblical and these are the ones we're going to partner with.

In fact, Martin Lloyd -Jones famously would not participate in any of the Billy Graham Crusades in London for this very reason.

They weren't tied to the local church. And they were sending people to Roman Catholic churches or liberal churches in England that had completely lost the

Gospel. You know, Orthodox churches, Eastern Orthodox type churches, things like that. And so he refused to participate because there was no ecclesiology there.

And the message being sent is that the Church is secondary. Or, like you said, it's just a nice add -on.

And we see this. I mean, the last year has shown this so frequently as people have had to make statements that the

Church is essential. That should be assumed. But you can't assume it anymore because the ecclesiology, it's not just bad.

It's nonexistent for people. They don't even think about it. It's not in their, it's not anything that they ever consider.

They go to church, if they go, primarily because either they're supposed to, they've done that by tradition, they have friends there, or they need that, you know, spiritual boost to get them through the week.

But there's no concept of a covenant commitment to a church and the role of the church, the importance of the church, and the life of the

Christian, and the role of the church in the community is completely gone. And then you have, yeah, you have this situation where now the ministries that are well -known aren't even connected to churches, and the church is essentially playing second fiddle or in the backseat, but it's the

Church that Christ said He would build. And, you know, it's the Church that's the pillar and the support of the truth.

But that has been jettisoned. And it's created a crisis where, you know, what is the percentage of professing believers now that have been doing online church for almost a year, and they say they have no plans ever to return to attending church in person again?

Well, you know something? Churches like that, it's probably better that they permanently shut their doors then.

Yeah, no, I don't disagree with you. But the percentage of people that would think that way is alarming, within evangelicalism, that think they are actually being part of a church and not attending a church.

They're not assembling, but they're part of the assembly. Yeah, it's interesting that even in the secular world, you have 12 -step groups.

I have my big problems with 12 -step groups. I am a repentant former drunk myself, and I know that many people have been rescued out of addictions through 12 -step groups, in spite of the inconsistencies and the falsehoods and some even dangerous things that go on in many of them.

But even they recognize that it is foolish for someone who is struggling with an addiction to think they can just do this maverick, lone wolf, lone ranger style, and just to be on their own and rely upon their own willpower and nothing else.

Even they, in the secular realm, realize that that's a recipe or a blueprint for suicide.

Absolutely. And here we have Christians teaching other Christians. Yeah, it'd be a great thing if you found a local church.

But, you know, hey, it's not necessary, and even if there are

Christians that would never say that, they definitely demonstrate that they believe it is unessential because of the way they live.

They bounce around from church to church to church, never committing to any of them, and some never going to any of them.

And you even have some very well -known evangelists and apologists that have traveled the world and have never made known or clear of their connection with a local church and being under the oversight of elders, etc.

I mean, it has been coming out that that is likely one of the main reasons why the downfall of the late

Ravi Zacharias was kept secret for so long.

There was no real connection to the authority of a local church. And that's a great point, because when we're saying this, we're not trying to interpret the

Church in some kind of Roman Catholic way as the arbiter of all people's salvation or that type of thing, but you recognize the spiritual danger that it is for people not to understand what the

Church is and why it's significant for them as believers. Or you have people that will go to just about any church as long as they like the music or the people, but what the

Church believes, what it teaches, who's leading it, all of these things are secondary.

Or if they're even being considered at all, as people think about that.

And so then there's no accountability, there's no sound doctrine. How are you growing as a believer?

In fact, we're going to have to pick it up right where you asked that question when we returned.

We have to go to a midway break. If anybody wants to join us on the air, again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

We ask of your patience, because this is the longer break in the middle of the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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So please try to write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as possible, and when you can't patronize them, when you can't actually buy products or use services or visit churches, they're too far away, at least respond to the ads by thanking these advertisers for sponsoring this show, if indeed you love the show and don't want it to disappear.

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And just a couple of other announcements before we return to our discussion with Rob Bernanski on Ecclesiology, The Missing Doctrine of Evangelicalism.

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Bible -believing, theologically sound church in your area, wherever you may live on the planet

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Sometimes I have helped people in our audience all over the globe find churches right around the block from where they live.

They didn't even know these churches existed, or they didn't know that the churches that they pass by every day on their way to work or anywhere else, they didn't even know these churches were biblically sound.

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So send me an email to chrisarmsen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line, whether it's for you, whether it's for a church when you're going on vacation that you want to visit, or if it's for a church for a family member, a loved one, an acquaintance that you know of who is without a church home.

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Missing Doctrine in Evangelicalism. That's chrisarmsen at gmail .com

and always give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if outside of the

USA. We have a listener, Dr.

Rob, that has a question that is a question that's also arisen in my own mind from time to time.

I don't know if I'm 100 % settled with the way Reformed Baptists conduct this particular area of Christian life.

I don't know if you have a different view or practice. But the listener writes in anonymously.

I'm writing anonymous because I don't want to unnecessarily offend my own pastors and fellow members at the church where I am a member.

But even though I agree with the vast majority of all teachings from the

London Baptist Confession of Faith and all teachings and practices that I have heard and seen observed by Reformed Baptists, one thing puzzles me.

I know that Reformed Baptists typically, perhaps never, will visit people in the hospital or a nursing home with the

Lord's Supper, and I don't understand why, if this supper is so very important and has actual spiritual significance and value, rather than it being strictly a memorial or symbols.

I know that just one person bringing a hospital patient or a nursing home resident the

Lord's Supper may not be in accordance with it being a church ordinance, but if you brought a handful of people with you or more, of course in areas where you're able to,

I'm speaking of if they open up the availability in hospitals and nursing homes where the coronavirus has had them shut down and closed to visitor entrance, shouldn't we be able to bring the

Lord's Supper to people who would love to receive it, but through no fault of their own are unable to?

Yeah, that's a great question, and it has, I think, even a little bit more urgency to it, given how much church participation has been online.

We talk about ecclesiology. I remember watching one live stream from a church, and the pastor said, we're going to do the

Lord's Supper, so get a piece of bread and grape juice, and if you don't have that, just grab anything you've got lying around the house.

One of the cats. Yeah, and it's like, well, that's not exactly the

Lord's Supper. So I think that there has to be some boundaries here, but I think about people that are in the hospital.

There's the norm that's given in Scripture, right? It says in 1 Corinthians 11 repeatedly, when you gather, when you come together, and so the expectation is that the

Lord's Supper is not something that believers are going to do in their homes by themselves or just with their families, but it is something that has to be done when the church gathers for worship under the leadership of qualified elders slash pastors, and it's going to be done in an orderly way for the benefit of the body and for the glory of Christ.

But I think that when we have these norms, we have to recognize that the fact that there's a norm means that there may be situations where there are exceptions, and is there a biblical precedent for doing something that's outside the norm as close as you can to it, but without violating

Scripture, but to serve the person who, as the questioner said, through no fault of their own, just in God's providence, his purpose for that person was to suffer and to be in a care facility or a nursing home or wherever it might be.

And I think if you look at how Jesus interacted in various situations, and even in the

Old Testament, David going to get the showbread that only the priests were supposed to eat, there does seem to be some biblical precedent that under duress, there can be exceptions made when the good of the person would be served and the law of God not overturned in what it's intending to accomplish.

And so in that case, I would think that, as the listener said, it shouldn't just be somebody in a nursing home grabs a quart of orange juice and a bagel and calls that the

Lord's Supper. That would be, I think, to defame the Lord's Supper. Well, I'm assuming that,

I don't know this for a fact, but I'm assuming that you wouldn't even be comfortable with them grabbing the proper elements on their own.

Absolutely. Like grape juice, wine. Right. Right. Wine, the fruit of the vine, grape juice in some circles.

Bread, unleavened bread. But I don't think there's anything that would prevent a pastor slash elder from bringing along a deacon and maybe another church member, even his wife, to come and read

Scripture with the person who is there and gather together as an expression of the body for somebody who can't physically get to church.

They are physically incapable. Some just are choosing not to. That's a different situation. But they're physically unable to be there.

There's nothing magical about the building where the church generally gathers or the number of people that are there.

You can have a small group. As long as you have the authority of the elders, you have somebody there who is administering the sacrament in a way that is under the authority of the church and under the authority of the elders.

I think that compassion would dictate that that would be a good thing to do for people who are suffering and unable to come to the gathering of the church for the

Lord's Supper. And so that's our practice. I've done that with folks at Desert Hills.

In fact, I actually have a little portable communion kit. I guess you could buy anything.

But it's got like four glass cups and a little bread tray in there, and you can pass it around and all that stuff.

Well, that's very refreshing. I think it's an act of compassion. When you look at how the

Lord treated these things, these ordinances, these sacraments are for our good.

They're made for us, to benefit us, and we have to keep that in mind. Obviously, there still has to be order.

There's norms that need to be followed, but compassion also needs to be factored into that and that the

Lord does desire compassion and not a sacrifice. And so, again, obviously you say that, and you could potentially open up a

Pandora's box and people in an unruly manner just decide they're going to take the Lord's Supper because they have two friends over or something.

That's not what I'm saying. I think you need to have the church, the elders need to know about it. They need to be in agreement that this is a situation where this is called for.

There should be an elder present. If there's the opportunity to have more than one elder, an elder and a deacon, I think that's ideal.

And then some small group that has gathered together to represent the body of Christ gathering there in that person's home or in that care facility.

Thank you, Anonymous. And I don't know if you are a first -time questioner or not, but if you are, let me know via email and give me your full name and mailing address, because if you are a first -time questioner, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and compliments of CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who actually ship the Bible out to you. Thanks again for the excellent question.

Thank you, it's a good question. So tell us more about these areas where you think there is a dreadful lack, perhaps a dangerous lack of concern or a dreadfully low level of importance given, if any, to the function of the

Church, the ecclesiology of the Church when it comes to the modern evangelical realm. Yeah, one area that I think is a glaring issue is the area of qualified leadership.

First of all, who should lead the Church? And so in a lot of churches, you have this sharp distinction that is drawn between elders and quote, unquote, the pastor.

And you get somebody who has a lot of authority without any accountability.

And that is a recipe for disaster for the quote, unquote, the pastor, the senior pastor, as well as for the members of the

Church who put a lot of weight into just one man and his thoughts, his opinion, his life.

And so you have just a crisis of leadership in the Church. And then what is the example that's being set for the body of Christ?

How do you, if you have a biblical paradigm that elders, pastors, et cetera, overseers, it's the same office, just different descriptions of what they're to do, who fills these roles?

And how do we determine that? And so, you know, one of the things that's happening at Desert Hills is we just hired someone to come on and lead our young adult ministries for college students and young adults and help oversee the folks we have in the student ministries.

And we really love this guy that we hired and we're excited about him coming.

But should he be a pastor slash elder? We don't know him that well.

We've interviewed him a number of times. He's been out, we've met him in person and we've heard him teach and things like that.

We've done our due diligence in the background. But our elder board thought, you know, we should take it slow before we make him a pastor slash elder so we can see his life in ministry because you're putting the leaders out for your church as examples for the congregation to follow.

And so it is so critical that as the church, we understand what are the qualifications of leadership in the pastoral offices?

And then do the men that we are putting in these positions of leadership, do they actually meet the qualifications?

And one of the difficulties about that is because that often doesn't happen. We perpetuate a situation where we can't find enough qualified men to serve.

And so there's sometimes a rush to just fill a spot because you need someone to run this ministry.

There's other ways to get at that besides making people elders. We shouldn't be elders or pastors, whatever terminology a particular church wants to use.

Or even the deacons, are they qualified or are they just good at some task of service?

And it's a clear scriptural principle, right, that we become like those who lead us. We become like our teacher.

That's the goal, that when you're fully discipled, you'll become like your teacher. Well, is the church putting people in those positions of leadership that we would want our churches to reflect?

If everyone in the church, all the members of the church were just like your elder board, would that be a good thing?

And there are situations where it's clear that the people who are leading aren't qualified. And, you know, even here in town, we see churches that have pastors that are women.

Well, immediately right off the bat, you don't have qualified leadership at that point because the

New Testament is clear that it is men who are to be the pastors and elders of the church.

Women are not to be the ones of spiritual authority over the men in the church or be teaching

God's Word to the men of the church, that that responsibility falls to the men.

And then you have, when that happens, you have the feminization of the church. And the church ends up being a place, you know, where they have all kinds of things that are done that have nothing to do with Christ or the gospel to try to attract men.

You know, maybe you've seen this in some churches. You know, all the sports leagues or all the, you know, different men's events that are, in a sense, almost secular in nature but just part of the church to try to get men to want to be involved because the church has become so feminized because there aren't qualified men that have stepped up to lead that you end up with this situation that just ends up perpetuating itself where you, then you never have men that can lead because they're not qualified.

In fact, I have been in an event, and I won't name the individual or the specific teams, professional teams that he has, where he has served as a chaplain, but he, an event that I was at, warned churches about not being very quick to invite a professional athlete that they hear about who has made some kind of profession of faith in Christ.

He warned them against being very quick to invite such people to speak at their churches, etc.,

because he has seen far too many of these men make false professions and wind up falling away.

And people, many Christians, churches, and leaders in churches and parachurch groups are so enamored with celebrity that they think that more people, it's a pragmatism kind of a thing, more people are going to come to the

Lord if we get celebrities and famous people get up there from the pulpit and begin to speak.

So we've got to get all these famous people that are either athletes or actors or musical performers, whatever they may be.

And then it turns out they become an embarrassment to the body of Christ because they totally abandon their faith a few years later or are just unchurched or not in a proper biblically sound church and wind up living very horrible lives in many ways.

Well, you think about this whole thing that happened with Kanye, right? Well, it was a couple of years ago.

Right. Or last year, you know, and if he got saved, he needed to be discipled and not be leading worship and, you know, speaking and being invited to all of these things.

But that's the point at which, yeah, you are a celebrity and you have influence because of those things, but you don't have the character yet to be in that position of leadership.

And you have to be discipled. And, you know, it doesn't, First Timothy 3, not a new convert. And there's a reason for that.

That, you know, we don't hold up new converts as the beacons of the faith that we want others to follow.

We want godly men to have a track record and who are sound in doctrine. And they may not be flashy or worldly impressive, but if you follow their life and doctrine, you will do well.

And if you follow the life and doctrine of some of these celebrities, you're not going to do well. And Charles Spurgeon even in the 19th century warned against this.

That's right. Yeah, and, you know, but what you said is it's this pragmatism, right?

So we don't, because we don't have, we don't have biblical principles of what the church is, who's supposed to lead it, and what it's supposed to do.

What do we fall back to then? What guides that? What works?

And the only measuring stick we have for what works is the short term. Because none of us are going to live long enough to see the long -term effects of the ministries that we've had in our families and the churches where God has placed us.

We have to serve by faith. And so we're judging what works based on how many people showed up this week versus last week.

And, you know, did that work? Well, that doesn't tell you anything about the effectiveness of your ministry, what happened over a course of one week.

That's something that, that's why we look back at men like Calvin, right? We say these were faithful, godly men because we see the effect of their ministry 500 years later.

And we see the way that God used that. And so we have to act based on principles.

But, you know, there's a church here where the question that they ask continuously is if our church were to disappear tomorrow, would the community notice and would they miss us?

Well, where does that come from in the New Testament? You know, I mean, if anything, you read through the New Testament, the community was trying to get rid of the church.

They weren't thankful the church was there. They were upset that the church was there because of the preaching of the gospel.

And so you begin to ask these questions because you don't understand what the church is or what it's supposed to do.

You don't understand its leadership structure or its mission. And now you have all of these people who think their primary job as believers is to impress their neighbors, to be missed if they were to disappear.

And so then the church descends into all kinds of social justice type of things and, you know, the woke theology and seeker -sensitive movements and, you know, all kinds of money and time being spent on worldly type of endeavors just for the sake of wanting to be pleasing to the unbelievers in their community.

And then you don't have any discipleship going on in the church at all because the whole purpose of the church ends up being just to attract unbelievers.

I remember somebody that we knew who was going to a church and was frustrated that they weren't being fed the

Word of God in the church. And they were rebuked by their church leadership for that feeling of frustration because they were supposed to just feed themselves and disciple themselves and the church was a place for the unbeliever to come.

And it was very selfish of them, they were told, to desire to be fed the Word of God when they gathered with the church.

And that's not an uncommon type of situation in evangelicalism today where the church is attractional for the world and there is no sound ecclesiology and people are starving to death spiritually and then they feel guilty about the fact that they don't want to be starving to death.

And it's ruining people's spiritual lives. Well, we have to go to our final break right now if anybody wants to join us.

On the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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We'll be right back with Dr. Rob Bernanski and more of our discussion on Ecclesiology, the

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We have Christopher from Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who has a question for you,

Dr. Rob. I have been recommended to read a book called Biblical Eldership by Alexander Strauch.

Do you also recommend this book? Yeah, we use that at Desert Hills for our elder training.

And there's a discussion guide that you can get that goes with it and a workbook. And we found all of them to be really helpful in helping the men that are coming on the elder board understand what exactly it is they're going to be doing as elders.

Because, again, as we mentioned, a lot of times in most churches, I would say that I've been around through my life, the elders were kind of just seen as pastoral advisors.

And we want all of our elders to be pastors and shepherds. And so they need to understand what that looks like.

And that needs to be built from the ground up, because most people that I've encountered, just when they think about elders, they do not equate that idea with being a pastor.

And it doesn't mean every pastor is paid. Some are dedicating their full -time energy and life to that.

Others have other jobs, and they help. They do shepherding, but they don't preach every

Sunday or something like that. So, yeah, I think it's a great book, very helpful. And the full title, just for anybody else's information that may want to order this book, because I have actually have been blessed for quite a number of years by the publishers of that book.

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheons. The full title is Biblical Eldership, an

Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadership. Once again, by Alexander Strauch.

And it has been endorsed by some really wonderful folks like John MacArthur, Alistair Begg, S.

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that you heard about them from Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Well, I want you to have approximately two minutes of uninterrupted time,

Dr. Rob, to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today. Thanks, Chris.

I think as you look at the church that you're a part of, you should think about how important is the ecclesiology of the church to your church leadership?

Do they understand what the church is supposed to be? Are you under biblically qualified leadership?

Who has the authority in your church? Is that entrusted to a group of qualified men who are serving under the authority of Christ?

Do they limit their authority where the Scripture limits it and exercise it where the

Scriptures have given them authority? What is the purpose of the gathering of your local congregation?

Do you gather to equip the church to do the work of ministry? Or is it attractional in nature so that it's a gathering of essentially trying to get unbelievers to come in and hear the gospel while the believers are not fed, not discipled?

What is the role of the church in the community? Is it to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ? Or is it to just be another social arm in the community to do social projects and help the community?

Again, there's nothing wrong with helping others. We're commanded to do that in Scripture as part of loving our neighbor, but is that the way your church primarily thinks of its role?

And I think it's important for everyone to recognize that you will become like those who lead you.

And so as you think about that, you want to ensure that you are following qualified leadership, godly leadership in the church, and that your elders fit the qualifications in 1

Timothy and in Titus. And also as listeners, maybe God is calling some of you to step up and lead and be elders.

You should understand those qualifications and pray for the men listening. Are you someone that God would call to serve as a shepherd, a pastor, an elder in your local church, so that you can lead others in a

Christlike example and by teaching God's Word? The church is in desperate need of qualified men to serve as elders and shepherds in the church.

We have a final question that we have time for, and I usually only give the first name of a listener, but since he's a friend and a pastor of a church that I highly recommend,

I will give his full identity. He is Pastor Gary George of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts, and he says,

Episcopalians claim that the sub -apostolic period at the turn of the first century, bishops were identified as being heads over the districts that they belonged,

I think he meant where they belonged, with a class of priests being under their authority.

Is there any validity to this? Well, I'm not a historian, so I can't answer the question about the historical fact or whether that's true or not historically.

But again, I would go to Scripture and look to see if that is what we find modeled in Scripture, and I don't see that.

It acts in 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philippians, the introduction to Philippians, and throughout the

New Testament, we see the churches governed by a qualified group of elders, and that there are deacons that are there to assist in the ministry of the church and the carrying out of the ministry as the elders were leading the church.

And so, you know, if they did that in the early second century, that may be the case.

In some cases, some churches did that. But again, you know, they weren't inspired.

They could have been mistaken. I would go to what the New Testament teaches and allow that to be the final authority over how we understand church polity.

Well, we're out of time, and I want to make sure our listeners have the website for Desert Hills Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

It's DesertHillsChurch .com, DesertHillsChurch .com. I want to thank you so much, Dr. Rob, for being our guest today.

You always do a great job. I want to thank everybody who listened today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. Thanks a lot, Chris. I appreciate you having me back. I loved having you back.