February 27, 2025 Show with Dr. John G. West on “Stockholm Syndrome Christianity”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 27th day of February 2025.

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Before I introduce my guest and our very important topic today,

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I just want to thank everyone who had been praying for my older brother,

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Andy, and had been praying for me and my family as we were witnessing my brother,

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Andy, on the verge of passing into eternity in the nursing home and then later in the hospital.

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I have the sad news to report to all of you who have not been following me on social media where I've already made these announcements, but my brother,

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Andy, did pass away on Saturday morning at 8 .45 approximately, and I am just thanking

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God that he repeatedly over the years and even in the recent days, repeatedly affirmed his faith in Christ.

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He never cursed God or rejected God or had anything negative to say about God and Jesus Christ, even in the midst of very painful and debilitating health problems.

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And as I've said to others and probably on this program at some point previously,

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I would occasionally visit my brother unannounced and find him with an open

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Bible on his lap in the nursing home and sometimes even Christian hymn -singing television programs on the

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TV set. The Lord has given me much evidence to find hope in, and of course, we who are

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Christians know that the judge of all the earth will do what is right at all times, but I just thank all of you who have been praying and continue to pray for me and my family as we mourn the loss of our dear brother,

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Andy, who departed this earth and entered into eternity at the age of 77.

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He would have been 78 this April. And I will keep you all updated as we have more specific facts about his memorial service and burial, which will take place on Long Island.

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And I want to thank Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, for their eagerness to be the hosts of the memorial service and for Pastor Rich Jensen to both give a word at the memorial service at his church facilities, but also at the burial.

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So I just want to thank all of you again. You'll never know this side of glory, how much your prayers mean to me, the hundreds of you that have contacted me to give me greater encouragement and comfort during this painful time in my life.

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Thank you so much. But today we have a very important guest. He's a first -time guest.

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His name is Dr. John G. West, who came to me at the enthusiastic urging of my longtime friend

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Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island.

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If you've been listening to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio with any regularity, you will definitely recognize the name

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Bill Shishko. He's been not only a guest on my program, but every day you hear a commercial featuring his voice for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Well, he told me you've got to get John G. West on your program to discuss his new book,

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Stockholm Christianity, and Dr. West is the vice president of the

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Discovery Institute, and he is also an author and a filmmaker and documentarian.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Shepherd's Iron for the very first time,

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Dr. John G. West. Chris, thanks for having me, and condolences on your brother.

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My eldest sister died just a few months ago after a very debilitating and painful, aggressive cancer, and she also knew

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Jesus and really believed in God's sovereignty and was accepting that to the very end.

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And that is a great comfort, but it's also still really difficult to lose a loved one like that, and so I'm still dealing with that in my life, and so I can appreciate what you're going through, and thank you for sharing about your brother,

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Andy. Well, I really appreciate that very much. Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, and also on a different thing,

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I heard from the radio announcer that you're in the area where was the hometown or the home area of James Wilson, the

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American founder. And I have to say that he is—my background was in political science, political theory,

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American constitutional law when I was a college professor, and one of my all -time favorite American founders was

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James Wilson. And his lectures on law, if people want to understand sort of the theory behind the

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American Constitution and sort of a Christian view of natural law and how it relates to revealed law, and I'm going off of memory here, but I think he also had a really articulate attack on David Hume's criticism of miracles and things.

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James Wilson is a favorite of mine, so that's fantastic that I'm speaking with someone who's from his area of Pennsylvania.

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Well, praise God for that. I did not know that before inviting you on the program, and it's great to hear of that providential connection there.

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Well, before we go into this very vital topic today, and let me repeat to our audience the name of the book, the title,

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Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, why Christian leaders are failing and what we can do about it.

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I'm glad that that is a part of the book indicated in your subtitle, because a lot of books that come into print, even those that are very often excellent, diagnose problems, but they don't tell us what to do about it.

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But before we go into that, why don't you explain for our listeners, give us a brief description of the

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Discovery Institute. Sure. Discovery is what's known as a think tank or a nonprofit educational and research organization.

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So we're based out of Seattle, although we actually have staff in Texas and now an outreach in England even.

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But our program's probably the most notorious is the Center for Science and Culture, which I helped co -found with a philosopher of science,

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Steve Meyer, and one of our fellows, actually Michael Behe is at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania.

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And so the Center for Science and Culture really looks at evidence in nature of intelligent design and purpose, and also is sort of critical of theories of unguided

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Darwinian evolution. And I myself, I'm more a social scientist, and so I have looked at the impact of scientism or really a mistaken view of science on culture and politics and morality.

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But Discovery does have some things in other areas. We have a small program on promoting school choice, and we have some things that George Gilder, who is a well -known name with us who supports our free market economics, we have some programs in that area, and also one that actually looks at some of the long -term issues causing homelessness, which relates less a housing issue and more a really dysfunctional cultural breakdown when people have lost or broken their family relationships or engaged in substance abuse or other things.

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How do we help, actually, people in that area? So anyway, nonprofit think tank education organization.

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We do documentaries, publish books, do conferences, do training for students and grad students, and then do a lot of public activities, public conferences and events.

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And the website is discovery .org. And also their publishing wing is discovery .press,

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and you'll want to make note of that latter website especially to get a hold of the book.

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If you do not win one today, in fact, even if you do win one today and you want to get an extra one.

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Another thing that I'd like you to do before we dive into this vital topic is something that we have a custom and a tradition for doing here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest such as yourself, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and also the kind of providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. And I'd love to hear your story.

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Sure. So I grew up in a very loving family with parents who were

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Christians. I had the benefit that my mom, when she grew up sort of more culturally

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Christian, she had come to a time in her life where she really knew that she needed a personal relationship with Jesus as her own

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Savior, and that's something that she hadn't understood growing up going to the church that they went. But then she did understand that, and coming out of that, she was very strong in making sure that her spouse, her kids, everyone understood that, you know,

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Christianity isn't just something you catch, and that you need to bow before Jesus as your

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Lord and Savior yourself. And obviously, I believe that God has to work on your heart to call you.

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So that was sort of the context. So I would say I was raised as a Christian and baptized as an infant and then confirmed in the church.

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But then, so I think pretty early on, I can remember a time, actually, when

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I was still in grade school, but I was more understanding where I really pledged, you know, accepted what

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Christ had done for me. But then certainly, I'd say in graduate school, I came to a time when

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I had been involved with people and things that I think were,

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I don't want to say power -hungry, but the things of the world, whether it be politics or some other things

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I was involved in, really was pointing in a different direction that was healthy.

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And I got involved in a—or God drew me to a really solid church while I was in graduate school that started the process of going deeper.

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And then after getting out of graduate school, I became involved in a ministry called

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Bible Study Fellowship, where I was a discussion leader. And that sort of led me to another deeper level of sort of reliance on God in prayer and seeing how

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God sovereignly acts in people's lives. And so I think—and then from on there,

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I was—I will—I'm embarrassed to admit, but that I was involved for many years and became an elder, was called an elder, in a

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Presbyterian church, but it was PCUSA, but it was one of the PCUSA churches that was actually biblically

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Orthodox, but then eventually was part of another

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PCUSA church and was able to—was on the committee that helped negotiate its release from the

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PCUSA. So I—and then now we're—and we were at that church for 18 years and it was very active.

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But some of the things that I describe in my book, unfortunately, I describe some of the experiences in that church that led my wife and me to be sort of convicted that we needed to do our time, talent, and treasure elsewhere.

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So now we're part of an independent Reformed church that is sort of—certainly very

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Reformed, but it's not Presbyterian. Okay. Just out of curiosity, are you

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Baptistic? No, I'm— Show's over!

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I'm only kidding. I was just curious, because you said you're not

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Presbyterian, but of course that is only involving government. So I didn't know where you were from. Yes. Yeah.

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No, look, I—yeah, that's interesting. I will say that I can see strong reasons on either side of the arguments over Baptism, and I certainly appreciate, like,

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Baptist Christian brethren and understand that actually they have a pretty strong case, but I grew up Presbyterian, and then when

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I studied some on it, I became persuaded that it was the idea of covenant and things, and understanding—

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Yeah. So— Well, if you ever want to check out a really, I thought, excellent debate that I arranged and—not moderated, but I emceeded a debate between my very dear friend,

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's a Reformed Baptist. He debated my equally dear and longtime friend,

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Pastor Bill Shishko, who I mentioned earlier, who's an Orthodox Presbyterian, who highly recommended that I interview you.

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They debated on the issue of infant Baptism, and you could see that on YouTube, and just look up James White versus Bill Shishko, and that will come up.

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Okay, I will. Alrighty. And so we are going to be discussing today your book,

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Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, Why Christian Leaders are Failing and What We Can Do About It.

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There are people, especially younger than you and me, but even

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I've had some people my age ask me what Stockholm Syndrome was all about, and I was a bit surprised by that.

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But if you could define Stockholm Syndrome for us, and then we could have a better idea—our audience is unaware of that term, but we'll have a better idea where we're heading with this book.

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Yeah. So Stockholm Syndrome comes back to this bank robbery in Stockholm, Sweden, in the 1970s, where a bank robber—actually two—held hostage several bank employees.

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And then they ultimately got—the employees got released, but then something strange had happened in the 100 -plus hours that they were held hostage.

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By the end of it, they were expressing gratitude, warm feelings, affection toward their captors, and actually a lot of negativity toward the police.

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And so a psychologist looked into it and sort of came up with this term, which I should say in psychology circles is quite controversial, so I'm not really interested in those debates.

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But the key thing is they hit upon that sometimes when people are held captives or even in abusive situations, they can end up adopting the point of view of the people who are abusing them or holding them captive.

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And of course, probably the most infamous case in American history where someone claimed this was Patricia Hearst, sort of heiress to the

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Hearst fortunes, who was captured by the Symbionese Liberation Army, and then by the end of it, she was actually doing bank robberies with them.

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So— And I think she denied the Stockholm Syndrome description,

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I think. I think she was claiming that she was always being threatened with her very life, and that's why she was going along with it.

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But I'm not an expert on that. You're probably right. I mean, her attorney was, I think, trying to come up with errors.

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So I'm not—like I said, what hit me on this, and this gets to the Christian connection, is

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I was trying to understand how so many Christian leaders, including those I personally knew, had really gone astray.

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And you know, I think a lot of Christians think, well, they do it because they are fearful of the world.

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There certainly is some truth to that. But—or that they want to be loved by the world. Well, there is truth to that.

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But in a number of people, I was seeing that they personally had convinced themselves that what they were doing is right, yet it wasn't right.

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And where was this coming from? And I think that if you look at a lot of Christians, whether they're in politics or the pastorate or the entertainment media or the news media or scientists, culturally influential

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Christians, they have spent their life from graduate school on to with their peer group being surrounded by people who are hostile to Orthodox Christianity.

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And I think in that situation, I have seen them end up adopting the worldview of these secular materialists around them.

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So much so that, you know, as Christians, we're called to bring Christ to the world and stand up for the truth, you know, in the

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Bible and, you know, and preach that to the world. But in many of these Christian leaders, they get it reversed.

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They actually end up being missionaries to their fellow Christians, bringing materialism to them and being, you know, sort of the anti -gospel because they're so convinced that, say, well, they're being loving because they've adopted a false view of love by their surrounding people or they've adopted a false view on a lot of other different things.

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And so I think the Stockholm Syndrome, again, just to get rubber meets the road, is that you end up adopting the point of view of your cultural captors.

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Yes, and one figure that I heard you discussing with Eric Metaxas, who, by the way, folks, those of you who enjoy

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Eric Metaxas, we have received a very encouraging word from those that run his schedule, that they would love to have him on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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And we are working that out. One of his biggest supporters is my physician,

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Dr. Joel Yeager of Heritage Family Health. And they are very enthusiastic about getting

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Eric on my show and I'll have my doctor co -host the show with me.

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But we'll keep you updated on that. But one of the individuals that you highlight, at least in your interview with Eric Metaxas, who was

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Eric's pastor at one point, Tim Keller, there seems to still exist, especially amongst

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Presbyterian Christians and leaders, a hesitancy to say anything critical of Tim Keller.

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I have had serious problems with Tim Keller for decades, and so much so that I do have concerns about his eternity after departing this earth.

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But tell us about this beloved figure in reform circles,

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Tim Keller, and why he fits right in with what you are discussing in this book. Tim Keller.

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Yeah, this is a really—I view him as a tragic figure. This is really sad.

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And as an elder in a Presbyterian church, he was someone that we upheld, and so I had to read some of his books and things.

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And I once, as I say in the book, my wife and I, when we were in New York City, once worshiped at his church.

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And it's inspiring to be in the middle of Manhattan with a thousand believers in Christ. And the sermon we heard that day was biblical.

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But having said that, on issue after issue, the level of cultural accommodation and the way he helped facilitate, enable, or at least didn't do anything to not enable, things that really were not biblical, especially as the time went on.

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And I would argue that as the culture continued to slide down, that had a bad influence on him.

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And so let's talk specific. So one is his platforming of Francis Collins, and we can talk about Collins later.

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But Francis Collins at this point, when Tim Keller was dealing with him, was one of the biggest champions of trying to combine

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Christian theism with Darwinian evolution. And so, and Tim Keller knew better than that.

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Part of the PCA actually has a fairly good statement about origins. But Tim Keller, out of his friendship with Francis Collins, basically hosted a series of private gatherings that were designed to bring together the top leaders and movers and shakers in evangelical

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Christianity to basically convince them that they need to get with the movement and they need to embrace

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Darwinian evolution. Is that Biologos? That was Biologos. And just to be clear,

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Francis Collins said, well, he wanted to do a dialogue. These were not dialogue conferences.

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They were conferences to bring together the movers and shakers with only the hand -picked people to promote theistic

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Darwinism. And the thing is that Tim Keller played host.

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He used his prestige and authority to invite people. And the reason they were a success is because he did that.

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And he did this over a number of years. And now, when I relate in the book that we knew some people who knew him who asked him about this, and he said, well, you know, he felt he sort of needed to do this because Francis, his friend, had asked him, okay, well, but, you know, he wasn't really necessarily a full blower on it, even though his endorsement of Biologos, that group that Francis Collins started, was on their website for many years.

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But be that as it may, so I decided I was able to get funding from a Christian foundation that Tim Keller respected to, well, why doesn't, would he host a similar gathering if we had funding for it, but would he be the host of record to bring together these same

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Christian leaders that he invited to meet with people who are critical of Darwinian evolution and who are supportive of, there's evidence of designing nature.

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And, you know, the answer, and we said, we didn't put any limit on it, you know, you name the time. And it was quite some weeks before we got a response, but the response we got back from his assistant was finally, oh, well,

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Tim is sorry, there's no time in the next two years that he could do anything. Now, we didn't say it had to be in the next two years, and, you know, in theory, you know, it's interesting.

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It may be sometime in the future. In other words, it was a brush off. So I would indict Tim here, not only did he facilitate something that was,

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I think, is really counter to Orthodox Christianity, but he then wasn't actually even willing to be a fair arbiter of at least allowing exposure to a better point of view that, at least on the record, was supposed to be better, you know, more consistent with his own denomination's view.

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But that's just one effort, you know, when it came to, there was this controversy in New York City for many years where you had a lot of ethnic

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Christian churches who are renting school facilities. Because, and, you know, Manhattan is not easy to get facilities, and…

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Yeah, the Bronx Household of Faith was one of the earliest churches involved in a lawsuit involving that.

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And so all they were asking for was the same right as any other group to be able to rent school facilities after hours, and they were turned down, and, you know, they were going to lose their places of church.

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This was a huge issue, and in fact, many of these ethnic churches actually had connections with Tim Keller's Redeemer Presbyterian.

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Some I think were even partly planted by them. But who is

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AWOL in this? When they were about, when your fellow Christians, ethnic, you know, racial minority

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Christians especially, were about to be booted out of their places of being able to meet, who was

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AWOL in that debate? Tim Keller. Tim Keller was

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AWOL, and they, in fact, they raised that. Now, at the very tail end, when it got so bad that there was actually publicity and there was an article raising serious questions, why is

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Tim Keller AWOL, and that he finally sort of issued a minimal public statement? But okay,

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I mean, that's not great. Then in his book on generous justice, which deals with poverty issues, which

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I think has some good biblical exegesis, but when he gets it to applying it to public policy, it's all left -wing secular progressive talking points that, you know, that poverty is largely about these structural evils of these institutions, which

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I think institutions can do evil things. But let's get real. In America, long -term intergenerational poverty is largely a function of family breakdown.

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And yet he does not want to broach that issue. I think maybe he mentions it in passing, but in that book,

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Generous Justice, it's all about, you know, that Christians should be up against these bad business and other institutions that are structurally evil.

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But I mean, this is kowtowing to the culture and also being very unhelpful.

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Because again, if you're trying to get people to a better place from long -term intergenerational poverty, which

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I mean, you know, grandparents, parents, kids, grandkids, whether you don't get out of it in America, you know, there are different causes for poverty.

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But one of the biggest predictors is if you don't have an intact family. And so what you do in the bedroom doesn't stay in the bedroom.

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It impacts everything. And for the leading Presbyterian evangelical pastor to not being willing to clearly articulate that,

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I think, again, was very sad. And then finally, on sexuality and marriage and gay marriage, he always affirmed when push came to shove the biblical teaching, but when it came to public interviews and other things, he gave a very muddled voice.

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Yes. In fact, I was just going to say that if anybody listening wants to hear an interview that I conducted years ago with Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry,

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Grace to You, Phil and I critiqued an interview, two interviews, actually.

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Well, actually, it was originally one, I think, long interview, and it was divided into two parts on YouTube.

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Tim Keller had in a venue or platform called the

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Veritas Forum. Did you see that interview, where Tim was extremely soft on homosexuality and also the idea of other ways to heaven that could possibly exist without Christ?

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I'd have to go back. It's been a while since I wrote that chapter, and he gave a number of interviews. And so I do talk about one that he really stumbled around and made clear that he didn't like to preach on this.

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They would do some stuff privately, and it was not—this is not the clarion voice.

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And I'm all for speaking the truth in love and winsomely and stuff, but that does involve speaking the truth, and you can't hide it.

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And if you expect people in the pews or, say, politicians or cultural people who attend your church to actually embrace biblical

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Christianity, if the pastor is an indistinct voice, what are you actually mentoring to?

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What are you training people to do? You're training them to be muddled. And so I know this is controversial.

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At least one person who I was going to endorse my book didn't, and I think it was largely because of my criticism of Tim Keller.

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And again, I view Tim as a tragic figure. There are others in my book that I don't view as tragic figures.

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I think they're just so out there that they really need to be called out in really strongest terms.

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And Tim, I know tragically because I think he really did struggle in his own life. He knew he was trying to uphold certain things, but he was so pulled in other directions that it just wasn't good.

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Right. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film, Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

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I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church.

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A congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

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I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother,

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Chris Arnzen, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today.

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Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back.

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Yes, that was the voice of Bill Shishko for that commercial, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

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and Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comack, New York, is the one who urged me enthusiastically, you've got to get on your program,

40:39

Dr. John G. West, to discuss his book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, and let me read a brief commendation from Eric Metaxas, New York Times best -selling author.

40:57

Stockholm Syndrome Christianity is a monumental achievement every thinking

41:02

Christian has an obligation to read it. You don't hear too many commendations of a book that say it's our obligation to read it, so that's pretty powerful, especially coming from somebody the caliber of Eric Metaxas.

41:16

Eric was very kind. Well, I'm sure he didn't flatter you with false praise.

41:22

I am confident that this is exactly what he described, but if anybody would like to join us, and there are some waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but I wanted you to have more input on the book before we take those listeners' questions, but if anybody wants to join us, you want to get in line, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

41:45

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence, if you live outside the

41:54

USA. Now, what were the compelling factors that led you to the point, perhaps the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, that made you come to the conclusion,

42:10

I have got to write this book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity? Yeah, it took place over a number of years.

42:19

Really, the more and more, again, I saw key Christian leaders, even those that I had looked up to, really failing and adopting more the point of view of the world and trying to understand why that was happening.

42:34

I was praying about it, so I did start to do some work on it, but then shortly after starting to scope out what

42:47

God might have me do, something happened that really did galvanize me and move me on, and that was when my former university that I had been at for 12 years was in the national news, both in Christian and secular headlines, but not for a good reason.

43:05

So, this was Seattle Pacific University, which had been established by devout members of the

43:10

Free Methodist Church, which was a Wesleyan denomination, but who were very devout, very

43:16

Bible -believing, when 72 percent of their faculty voted against the university's biblical statement on marriage, that basically marriage is reserved to a man and a woman, and that that's the only appropriate place for sex to take place.

43:36

Seventy -two percent! Wow, that's shocking. I always thought of them as the go -to place with a biblical alternative for people who wanted to leave the

43:46

United Methodist Church, but I guess that's not true. Well, I think that is true for the

43:51

Free Methodist denomination. The problem is, as I talk about in the book, that there was a failure of leadership and that the board of trustees that at the time that I was there initiated this.

44:05

Basically, the president wanted to wean them away from control by the denomination, and the denominational officials who were sitting on the board who were themselves personally devout basically allowed it.

44:17

And so they didn't have the courage of their convictions. I do think that most of the congregations in that denomination still are biblically faithful, but they allowed one of their crown jewel educational institutions to go in the other direction.

44:34

Seattle Pacific University still puts itself forward as an evangelical Christian university, but how do you have an evangelical

44:42

Christian university when 72 percent of your faculty and a similar amount of staff—there was also a vote of them—rejects biblical marriage?

44:51

Well, the simple answer is you don't. You don't really. Regardless of your publicity, you don't have a

44:57

Christian institution if, you know, more than seven in ten of your faculty and a similar amount of staff reject biblical marriage.

45:04

And so that galvanized me. Even also when I saw the reporting on that, because a lot of people praised the board of SPU for not officially repealing their statement on biblical marriage despite the opposition of the faculty, but there was a lot of head -scratching going on, and people thought, well, this came out of nowhere.

45:27

You know, how did this happen? And so I realized that, you know, part of my book is an expose, but many of the chapters are trying to get people to understand how did this happen, and then what can we do about it?

45:39

So my book isn't just an expose. It's broken into three parts—the symptoms, the causes, digging down, and then the cures.

45:46

But on the causes, which is also part of the cure, is that if you look at many Christian institutions that drift away—and it's not just Seattle Pacific, what

45:56

I experienced, but that was the one that I was in detail involved in—it doesn't happen overnight.

46:04

And often the drift into, or the going headlong over, into theological unorthodoxy or theological liberalism is enabled by people who are personally theologically orthodox.

46:19

And so in the 12 years I was there, I bracketed this actually in my book, two examples, one that showed the change while I was there.

46:27

When I came, I was warned by faculty on a committee that interviewed me that, oh, we have a very theologically conserved board of trustees.

46:36

They just turned down for tenure someone in the theology department because they were, you know, too theologically liberal.

46:44

And they thought I would be, you know, oh, I'd be warned by this. Secretly, I was actually thinking, wow, that's great.

46:50

More power to them. Well, fast forward to when I left, after there had been a new president who basically had gotten the board to eat out of his hand and just not to stand up.

47:01

When I left, one of the last battles I had was trying to defend a hire while I was there who was probably the most dynamic, theologically orthodox, on fire people that we had hired while I was there, and he was being denied tenure.

47:20

And the faculty were doing that, and the board refused to counteract it.

47:27

So you go from a board that was actually protecting the theological integrity and mission of the institution to 12 years later, rubber stamping the,

47:37

I'd say, the worst elements of the university. And, you know, that was well before the vote that happened just a couple of years ago because I left in 2006.

47:46

But my point is that the key enablers here were actually the theologically orthodox board members who did not have the courage of their convictions.

47:57

The theological liberals on campus in the faculty and administration had the courage of their convictions.

48:02

They were wrong. But the board members who were personally orthodox refused to follow their

48:10

God -given responsibility. And I actually, in my book, I mean, I want to be honest, I have struggled with that.

48:15

I actually, I don't have bad feelings about the president who moved in this direction because, as much as I disagree with him, he at least had the courage of his convictions.

48:27

He was trying to push it. But these board members who, and they were made aware. I was one of a group of faculty who made them aware of what was happening.

48:38

And there were some, I want to give them credit, there was a minority on the board who actually did try to hold the institution faithful, but there was not a majority.

48:48

And the people who were involved in conservative parachurch groups, I mean, again, these were not theological liberals on the board, yet they were the key people who enabled the destruction, in my view, the theological destruction of that institution.

49:01

Now, I know that I might be asking you to be a mind reader here, but through your study of this phenomenon and the way that professedly orthodox, biblically sound

49:18

Christians in positions of authority are caving in to the left time after time after time, do you believe it is because of primarily fear of not only losing positions, getting fired, etc.,

49:42

and please, my Arminian friends, don't be overly offended by this, but sometimes even

49:49

Reformed Christians act like Arminians in that we think we can somehow lead people to Christ by being nicer to them or something, that you can manipulate their will without, if you refrain from being harsh about their sin,

50:12

I think that the sin of homosexuality is probably the most dominant area of sin where that seems to be the case, where you have conservative

50:23

Christians over and over again watering down the severity of their sin while they wouldn't necessarily do the same thing with people involved in heterosexual sin and adultery.

50:35

But do you have any idea why they're doing this? Yeah, so I think, obviously, fear is always a component, fear of man, that is true, but I, again,

50:48

I think the deeper thing is they've drunk the Kool -Aid. And sometimes Christians also say, well, they're getting funding from bad sources.

50:55

And I do think funding can be corrupting, but if you've accepted the funding, say, from a left -wing secular foundation, it's probably because you've already drunk the

51:05

Kool -Aid. So that can help exacerbate, but that's not the fundamental thing.

51:12

The fundamental thing is they're buying in the point of view of the world. So let's talk about this feeling of being loving.

51:18

The Bible is very clear about what biblical love is, and it's not just making people feel good.

51:25

No, it's actually genuinely loving them to tell them the truth so that they could get genuine human flourishing and repent of their sins and be right with God.

51:36

And the Bible's clear on that. But if you've imbibed the view of the world definition of love, that love is that which never gives offense to someone, never makes them feel uncomfortable, even if they're destroying themselves, and you believe that, that that's really what love is, or you convince yourself, then you start acting accordingly.

51:59

And let me give you another example. Actually, this was after I left Seattle Pacific University, but I think sees this in action.

52:06

So I do write about this in the book. Well, what happened in the years between when

52:12

I left and then when 72 % of the faculty voted against biblical marriage? Well, a few things happened.

52:19

One is that the university approved a campus gay group, even though that wasn't their stated standard.

52:28

They basically enabled—and why did they do that? Well, if you look at what they said, that, you know,

52:33

I think they thought they were being loving and accepting by allowing people who had views that were against the institution to be able to vocalize them.

52:42

They thought they were being loving. But as a group of theologically more traditional and orthodox students wrote to the board appealing and saying, you created a campus environment where in classrooms professors are giving the people who are promoting an anti -biblical view an easy platform, and then anyone who wants to uphold the biblical view is intimidated or threatened if they raise it.

53:10

So in the name of being loving to people who were really going against the biblical view, they were being cruel to the faithful ones who were trying to uphold the biblical view.

53:23

And so it's not, you know, again, they're adopting the world's definition of love, which in fact is neither loving towards the people who are going against what the

53:35

Bible says, nor is it loving to the faithful ones who are trying to live in accord with, you know, the

53:43

Bible. Well, we have to go to our midway break, and once again, if you have a question of your own, submit it to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

53:50

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and Mike in Monroe, New York, we will ask your question first when we return.

53:56

Don't go away. We'll be right back. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Ovidio, and thanks for listening. scripture as the written word of God.

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01:06:44

Before I return to my guest, Dr. John G. West, and our conversation about his new book,

01:06:52

Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, why Christian leaders are failing and what we can do about it, before I return to that discussion,

01:07:00

I need to remind you of a few things. First of all, folks, if you really love

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The Bible's clear that we are primarily to use the with which he blesses us, which is still God's money.

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So please, if you are in that predicament, no matter where in the world you live, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and put, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Dr.

01:09:43

John G. West about his book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:09:50

give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Mike from Monroe, New York says,

01:09:55

Hi Chris, can your guest please address what is for me Tim Keller's most offensive aspect of his woke social theology, which is his full embrace of critical race theory and aggressive denunciation and repudiation of white or European people groups bearing the guilt of our nation's past sin and involvement of slavery and other so -called social injustices.

01:10:25

Yeah, I mean, that is another area. I'm probably going to punt a little bit on that, because although I have read some of Tim Keller's things on that,

01:10:34

I don't really treat him on that issue in depth with my book. I do think he aped a lot of talking points.

01:10:42

Let me, on the broader issue though of race and ethnicity, and as I write in my book,

01:10:51

I do think a lot of unbiblical thinking has predominated on there, and a lot of otherwise biblical churches have adopted thought forms that basically demonize certain races over others, and almost suggest, say, if you're white, or whether you regard that race, ethnicity, whatever, that you can never get beyond the sin of racism, and that you're forever atoning, and there's really no redemption no matter how hard you work.

01:11:27

And, you know, this is really replacing the gospel. Now, I do want to say one thing here.

01:11:36

I think the gospel and the Bible has been one of the world's greatest engines of human dignity, and from life issues.

01:11:45

I mean, in the early or the late Roman Empire, when Christianity arose, you know, babies were exposed, you know, infanticide, there were gladiatorial games.

01:11:57

I mean, the views of women, and of slaves, and of human life, when

01:12:03

Christianity arose, was not great. And the Christian view, going back to the

01:12:09

Jewish view in the Old Testament, of all human beings being created in the image of God, unlike, say, the

01:12:16

Hindu creation story where we reflect different pieces of God. You know, that some people in the laws of Manu, one of the

01:12:22

Hindu creation stories, is that, you know, some of us were just made to reflect the feet of the

01:12:29

God, and so we're inherently supposed to be slaves. That was not the Christian view. You know, I think people really don't understand just how dynamic and transformative the

01:12:37

Christian worldview was on human dignity, and this doesn't just apply to race and ethnicity. It applies to all, you know, all parts of human life.

01:12:47

But I think today many Christians have grown embarrassed about the Bible, and I actually talk about that in my chapter on race and ethnicity, going to Andy Stanley, this megachurch pastor who berates

01:13:02

Christians looking to the Old Testament for anything. He tells this heartbreaking story where a man comes in to his—I think he was an early young pastor—but a man comes in wanting

01:13:15

Andy Stanley to convince his daughter that she shouldn't be wanting to marry a black man. Because why?

01:13:20

Well, because Moses was condemned by God because he married a black woman.

01:13:27

Now, the most obvious answer to this that a minister should make is, well, that's preposterous.

01:13:33

That is actually not—that's not in the Bible. In fact— Tom Doyle Right, the opposite. David Mayer Correct. Quite the opposite.

01:13:39

It was Miriam and Aaron who were critical of Moses marrying her, and God judged them for that.

01:13:47

Tom Doyle Struck her white with leprosy. David Mayer Yeah. But what does Andy Stanley do?

01:13:53

As he tells the story, he says, well—he doesn't even tell the readers of his book where he wrote this that that was not true.

01:14:02

He doesn't correct the record. He just says, well, you know, I don't want to—I didn't want to break the relationship, and so, you know,

01:14:08

I came up with this answer, which was that, you know, do you really want to sacrifice your relationship with your daughter by doing this?

01:14:15

Okay. Well, maybe that was something he should have said, but he uses this as a proof text to say, well, this is why we shouldn't rely on the

01:14:24

Old Testament, because the Old Testament misleads people from God. I mean, how—I mean, he's embarrassed by biblical teaching.

01:14:31

He doesn't even get it right. There's so much great resources for racial and ethnic reconciliation in the

01:14:37

Bible that we need to draw on that rather than repudiate it and let alone adopt critical race theory, which ultimately comes from Marxism and other things that is the opposite of bringing people together.

01:14:50

Now, but I am going to say one other thing, and my book has gotten some controversy for this, at least, that I do think those of us who are theologically conserved

01:15:00

Christians and those who also embrace sort of Reformed theology have to acknowledge that there is a,

01:15:07

I would think, a fringe subset of some really dark thinking among some people who purport to be

01:15:13

Christians that is actually avowedly racist, that actually argues that—often drawing on evolutionary biology to argue that blacks are biologically inferior to whites and that is really hateful, and some that go so far as to actually praise

01:15:32

Hitler when it comes to, you know, Jews. And this is just as bad and just as awful as the left -wing wote stuff, and I think we need to be clear on that.

01:15:43

I am in my book, and I think most are, but we just need to be very clear on that. But, of course, the response to that is not to then embrace the left -wing view of that race and ethnicity is everything and that if you're white, you're irredeemably bad.

01:15:58

I mean, that's not true either. What I try to get back into my book is there is a genuine

01:16:03

Christian tradition of human dignity and of loving each other and of Christians actually joining together.

01:16:13

I mean, one of my most treasured moments is when I travel and then am able to worship in a different country with Bible -believing

01:16:22

Christians, whether they're in, you know, of whatever race or ethnicity.

01:16:28

And I actually tell this at the very end of the book about a Bible -believing church in Turin, Italy that actually broke off some years ago from a

01:16:37

Protestant church that was just trashing the Bible. And so this faithful group of English speakers founded a new

01:16:45

Bible -believing church, and it is now the largest English -speaking Bible -believing church in that city.

01:16:51

My wife and I worshiped in this upper room. It was hot, hot Sunday morning, and they had people there from Brazil, from Africa, all these people who had come to Italy and were working there from their home countries from, you know, every continent of the

01:17:06

Jesus in a really biblical Bible church. And they were actually just announcing that they had bought their own building and that they were going to be doing, like, a seminary and other things.

01:17:18

And being with Christians—one of the most exciting things is actually being with your brothers and sisters in Christ who are from different countries or different backgrounds because you really do understand the unity we have in Jesus.

01:17:31

And so that's something to be prized, but that is certainly not what the cultural left is pushing.

01:17:38

And the sad thing of people like Tim Keller and some of the people who thought they were preaching racial reconciliation is by buying into the sort of Marxist and pseudo -Marxist agenda of which, in fact, was promoting racism, they were actually promoting permanent division and not bringing people together, which is really far from what the

01:18:04

Bible's, you know, teaching of reconciliation is really about. Fighting racism with racism.

01:18:11

Yep, yeah. Let's see, we have another—oh, by the way, Mike from Monroe, New York, you have just won a free copy of Stockholm Syndrome Christianity by Dr.

01:18:24

John G. West, complements of discovery .press. And so make sure we have your full mailing address in Monroe, New York.

01:18:34

We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who asks, can you provide for us more names of prominent professing

01:18:44

Christian leaders of whom we should be aware that are endangering our thinking and souls?

01:18:53

So you can read my book, but I'll tease out some. We've already mentioned

01:18:59

Francis Collins but I want to double down a little bit more on, I forget if we talked just how, well,

01:19:05

I guess maybe we did here, about how much he promoted not just theistic Darwinism, but gruesome research with abortion and the funding of the harvesting of aborted baby parts from aborted babies from, you know, six weeks to 42 weeks.

01:19:24

And also his promotion of government funding of people who are doing gender -destructive research, and also puberty blockers for young people that is really destroying their biological sex.

01:19:39

So I think he's one example, because many Christians look up to him. I talk about—

01:19:44

That Francis Collins again? Is that who you mean? That is Francis Collins. So, I mean,

01:19:50

Francis Collins, many people turn a blind eye to his views on the

01:19:56

Darwin debate, but they didn't realize how it fed into other things.

01:20:01

And his promotion of eugenic abortions and his promotion of harvesting of, again, aborted babies' body parts for gruesome research.

01:20:11

I mean, just one example of the research was where they scalped the scalps of babies and grafted them onto mice.

01:20:21

Wow. And again, this is not—it might sound like, oh, this is conspiratorial. No, this is actually from government documents that were released, and the research

01:20:29

I just told you about was published in a mainstream science journal, but it was funded by the

01:20:34

NIH under Collins. So this is not—you know, I'm not making this stuff up.

01:20:40

You can go to my book, or you could go elsewhere, and you'll find this is the truth. But I will tell one other thing on the funding of this tissue bag of harvesting these aborted baby parts, which is just horrific.

01:20:56

Francis Collins, maybe he felt bad about it or something, because the group that tried to find out about it, they filed a public documents request, a

01:21:06

Freedom of Information Act request, to find out, well, what the government was funding. Was it funding this? And they had every right to know.

01:21:12

It was a group called Judicial Watch. Francis Collins' NIH refused to turn over the documents, and so Judicial Watch had to sue the federal government in order to get the documents.

01:21:25

So it wasn't just that Francis Collins was doing it. He was also trying to hide it. So that's one example.

01:21:32

I was just going to say, any more names that might even surprise us or shock us that evangelicals enjoy or think they're benefiting from in some way?

01:21:43

So this was, I know, has created some controversy. Let's talk about some of the in the

01:21:49

COVID debates, especially the mandates and things.

01:21:55

So you had, I'd say, never Trump or David French, who's at now the

01:22:04

New York Times, attacking Christians as being mean and not right with God, if they were skeptical of taking the

01:22:15

COVID vaccine. But at the same time, you had some on the other political side of the argument who are making the same claims.

01:22:23

Robert Jeffress is a large Baptist pastor, a very conservative Baptist pastor out of Dallas, Texas, who, again, very pro -Trump, and so many conservative

01:22:35

Christians love him. But he was really vicious when it came to, he boasted to the

01:22:41

Associated Press, I write about this, that in his church, among church staff, that they did, his

01:22:47

Baptist church, they didn't give any exemptions to staff who felt that they couldn't take the

01:22:53

COVID vaccine. And this is a Baptist, Baptists are for religious liberty, usually, and he publicly demeaned them and actually spread this fake claim that I saw some other conservative

01:23:08

Christians pushing at the time is that, oh, well, if you have problems taking the

01:23:15

COVID vaccine because of, say, someone's connections to abortion or other things, and you feel that you shouldn't take it, then, well, do you have a similar problem with taking aspirin?

01:23:25

Because that was also tested using aborted babies, which is not true. I mean, it's not true in the way that they were saying.

01:23:32

That was a false fact. And Robert Jeffress helped spread that false talk.

01:23:37

He was one of the people. So he's someone who is otherwise conservative on a lot of things, theologically conservative, but he was really awful when it came to his own parishioners and staff members who didn't favor, you know, had conscious objections to taking the

01:23:57

COVID vaccine. Tom Doyle Thank you, Cindy, in Findlay, Ohio. And because of your frequent support in the past, we have your mailing address in Findlay, Ohio.

01:24:08

So keep your eye open for a package from cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and they will ship that book out to you,

01:24:18

Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. We have

01:24:23

Carlos in Brentwood, Long Island, New York. And Carlos asks, how much of the evangelical world, as far as leaders and authors and prominent figures, have bought into the lie that homosexuality is less of a sin than heterosexual sins?

01:24:53

That's an interesting question. In a way, it's hard to tell because so many of them have given up on both.

01:25:03

And what they believe in their innermost hearts, it's hard to say.

01:25:10

What I think I can say is that on the overall issue of sexuality, whether it be heterosexual, whether it be issues of divorce, or whether it be issues of homosexuality or issues of transgender, too many

01:25:26

Christians have completely or partially bought into the views of the world.

01:25:33

And I think it's progressive. So, you know, I do talk about the same -sex marriage and other issues in the book, but I intentionally start the chapter on sexuality with heterosexual promiscuity and also the failure of churches to uphold any biblical teaching on divorce.

01:25:54

And, you know, I accept there's, I think, some legitimate disagreements among Christians of what the precise biblical grounds of divorce are, so I don't get into that.

01:26:03

But the idea of divorce, as we understand it today, which is pretty much no -fault divorce, that is anything but biblical.

01:26:10

Yet the number of churches who really are willing to have solid teaching on that, even if it's in their standards, is,

01:26:19

I mean, there aren't that many, and that's really sad. And then, you know, where we've had on the issue of sex outside of marriage for heterosexuals since the 1960s, increasing number of even evangelical churches.

01:26:33

And I give the studies for evangelicals under 30. I mean, it's

01:26:40

Houston, we have a problem. I mean, we have a crisis. And so I think one of the reasons why you don't have the church standing up faithfully when it comes to same -sex issues, homosexuality, or transgender issues is because they already ceded these other grounds.

01:26:59

And so I think that we need to look in all those areas. So I guess

01:27:06

I would just say that I think that they are all linked. Tom. Yeah, and to throw my own two cents to Carlos, it's probably not that common that you would have evangelicals saying that homosexuality is less of a sin than heterosexual sins are, but they would act that way.

01:27:30

You know, they would treat people who are guilty of homosexual sins with far more compassion, tenderness, patience, and treat them as if they are a people group, like the left does.

01:27:47

The left speaks of homosexuals as if they are Italians, Spaniards, Brits, Canadians, Africans, and homosexuals, as if there's some kind of an ethnic group.

01:28:03

And sometimes I've heard evangelicals from pulpits perhaps unconsciously borrow that rhetoric where they don't specifically spell it out that way, that it's like an ethnic group, but the way that they speak and behave sometimes makes you think they are deluded enough to believe that.

01:28:23

Am I making sense there, Dr. West? Tom. Yeah, yeah, no, I think you are. And let me just—actually, on the issue of sexuality, let me point out one other thing.

01:28:33

Fortunately, I think we have, at least in the area of the transgender madness when it comes to kids, we seem to, you know, there seems to have finally been opened up an actual debate over that.

01:28:48

But sadly, it's not because of the named leaders of evangelical

01:28:55

Christians, because they were standing up so solid on that issue, because they weren't. I know some of the people who were really trying to tell the truth about the destructive things of the transgenderism, which

01:29:08

I think is sort of the next step down the rung into, you know, your culture being destroyed.

01:29:13

And they suffered a lot of abuse, a lot of persecution, and a lot of intimidation even from their fellow

01:29:19

Christians who didn't want to stand up on that. And so the fact that now, right now, we seem to be at least able to begin to raise these things, and at least some of the insanity, not all by any stretch, on the transgender abuse of treatments of kids, in my view, we're actually able to stand against that without being canceled.

01:29:41

That wasn't because the leaders of Christianity today were so strong on this, for example, or the leaders of Christian colleges were really pushing against it.

01:29:49

It was because of some lonely few people, not all of whom were even Christians, who stood up and took huge amounts of abuse and were canceled and just kept doing it.

01:30:01

And now there is this window of opening that we can actually debate it again, and we'll see whether the

01:30:09

Christian churches, the people who weren't really willing to raise this when they would be canceled, whether they're now willing to exert some leadership sort of after the fact.

01:30:21

But that's a sad case of the lack of leadership among leading

01:30:26

Christians. Thanks, Carlos. Make sure we have your address in Brentwood, Long Island, New York, so cvbbs .com,

01:30:35

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and ship out to you a free copy of Stockholm Syndrome Christianity.

01:30:42

Thanks so much for the excellent question. We have Amethyst in Jupiter, Florida, and Amethyst says, would you put in the same category as your book implies with Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, the revoice phenomenon that existed amongst the

01:31:03

PCA, one of the most conservative denominations in the Presbyterian group, that has,

01:31:09

I believe, since distanced themselves or rejected that revoice phenomenon?

01:31:18

Yeah, I don't get into detail about revoice. I am somewhat familiar with it, and yes.

01:31:24

So the way I deal with it in my book, which I think is the larger issue, the redefinition of the term gay.

01:31:33

So can you be a gay Christian? Well, and really, the answer is no.

01:31:42

So you have some Christians who claim to be biblically Orthodox who try to redefine the term and say, well, it's like a group, like you were saying, you know, it isn't defined by having gay sex.

01:31:55

But of course, everyone knows that's not true. I mean, we all know what the term refers to and what it refers to in the gay community.

01:32:04

It's not just this ethnicity. It actually is defined by some behaviors.

01:32:12

And so this was an effort to change the debate by redefining the terms, but just idiosyncratically for a small group of Christians.

01:32:22

But once you start using that terminology, your overall views end up morphing and changing.

01:32:29

And so one of the things I talk in the chapter on wisdom in my book is beware of the use of terminology and the redefinition of terms, because this can be an easy way of getting you to go in the wrong direction.

01:32:44

And another place where this has been prominent is in the whole evolution debate.

01:32:50

So that, I mean, the mainstream view of evolutionary theory from the time of Darwin on was that evolution is an unguided process.

01:33:00

And so Christians trying to meld their own views with that have a problem, because Christians most definitely do not believe that life was developed through an unguided process.

01:33:12

So the way Christians can try to find a way to fit this together is say, oh, well, we have a different definition.

01:33:22

And so see, even a different definition of Darwinian evolution, which by Darwin's own definition was unguided.

01:33:29

So see, we've solved the problem. We've redefined evolution as this guided process. So there's no tension between Christianity and evolution.

01:33:37

Well, that sort of solution by redefining the term in a way that no one sort of in the mainstream really accepts, it's a phony solution.

01:33:50

You're not really, you're papering over the real differences there. You're not really explicating what's really an issue or resolving it.

01:34:00

You're just trying to paper it over by redefining the term. So I do think that what was exhibited in the

01:34:07

Revoice movement, getting back to that, is this effort to use terminology that means one thing's in the secular culture and then give it this little private definition among Christians as if you're solving an issue and that's not true.

01:34:22

And that's something to be aware of. I give a number of things to be aware of, that redefining of terms. Or one other example

01:34:28

I talk about in the book is pro -life. You have a lot of people who are really concerned about human -caused global warming and they think it's going to lead to our annihilation.

01:34:38

So they've redefined pro -life to, oh, this congressperson is pro -life. Even if they have a 100 % voting record for abortion on demand, they're pro -life because why?

01:34:52

Well, they voted for a Green New Deal or something. And this is, again, the term pro -life has a meaning.

01:35:01

But they're trying to smuggle in support for this other issue on climate change by redefining the term to encompass climate change.

01:35:12

And that's not honest. And I have to say that Christians who do do this, and maybe they're not intentionally being dishonest, but at a certain point they are being dishonest.

01:35:20

When you try to offer a new definition of a term that doesn't really mean that for other people, you're trying to confuse and win a debate through obfuscation, not by clarity.

01:35:33

And that's a warning sign. By the way, I would like to highly recommend our listeners watch a debate that I orchestrated, emceed, and moderated between Dr.

01:35:46

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, a Reformed Baptist apologist who debated

01:35:52

Dr. Gregory Coles, who professes to be both a homosexual and a

01:36:00

Christian. And they debated over whether or not a

01:36:06

Christian should ever identify him or herself as a gay

01:36:12

Christian. And basically the concept is that there are certain people, and it might even be the predominant number of people in their view, who have same -sex attraction.

01:36:27

And that is a permanent and innate aspect of their being, their very being.

01:36:34

And it is not a sin in their minds to have this attraction. And some people even go as far as saying that it's some kind of a blessing, as Gregory Coles did.

01:36:46

But they do agree with us, Bible -believing Christians, that it is a sin to physically participate in that sin, to consummate it, and to lust for someone of the same sex or anyone.

01:37:02

But they say they can be faithful Christians and yet never repent of being gay because they don't believe being gay requires repentance.

01:37:15

So if you look up on YouTube, James White versus Gregory Coles, C -O -L -E -S, you will find that debate, and I think that you will be edified by it.

01:37:28

We're going to be going to our final break right now. And once again, if you want to get in line and ask a question, submit it as quickly as you can, because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:37:40

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back. This is

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Bronx, in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

01:48:23

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

01:48:33

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

01:49:03

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

01:49:09

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

01:49:17

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, going back to 2005.

01:49:27

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

01:49:35

Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

01:49:44

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

01:49:50

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

01:49:55

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

01:50:01

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

01:50:10

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

01:50:22

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

01:50:28

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

01:50:34

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831.

01:50:41

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

01:50:46

Joe O 'Reilly on Iron Sharpens, our own radio listener, from Ottawa in County Kildare, Arlington, Saskatchewan.

01:50:54

Welcome back, and don't forget, folks, that among our supporters of this program are the law firm of Buttafuoco &

01:51:06

Associates. If you are the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice, please call my friend

01:51:12

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, at 1 -800 -NowHurt, 1 -800 -NowHurt, or visit his website, 1 -800 -NowHurt .com.

01:51:21

1 -800 -NowHurt .com—that applies for everybody in the United States, so no matter where you're from in America, call 1 -800 -NowHurt or visit 1 -800 -NowHurt .com.

01:51:32

Make sure you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you contact them. Also, don't forget, with Mother's Day coming up, that if you purchase jewelry for Mom at RoyalDiadem .com,

01:51:44

whether it's jewelry they already have in stock or if you're having a one -of -a -kind customized piece of jewelry created,

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RoyalDiadem .com is giving us 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry to our listeners, as long as you mention

01:51:59

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in making a purchase. That's RoyalDiadem .com. And we're now back with my guest, who is

01:52:08

Dr. John G. West. We're talking about his book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, and I'm going to squeeze in one more question before we have

01:52:17

Dr. West explain what we can do about it. But Rallo in Rio Rancho, New Mexico, wants to know, would you put in this category of Stockholm Syndrome Christianity the horrible advice that Alistair Begg gave to a grandmother to visit her grandson's or granddaughter's wedding to a same -sex person that was transgendered?

01:52:45

Yes, and I actually talk about that example in depth in my book. I'll just say that the tragedy of that is not only that the advice was bad, it's how

01:52:59

Alistair Begg responded when people criticized him on that.

01:53:04

In many cases, there were people who looked up to him, and so these were thoughtful criticisms.

01:53:10

He gave a sermon that is just beyond belief in the way he demonized the people who had very good, and I think valid, biblical objections to what he did, and it was

01:53:23

Scripture -twisting. And he misused the parable of the Good Samaritan.

01:53:29

I mean, and then what was even worse, and this does show, you know, I mean, his congregation, they ended up clapping at the end of that sermon.

01:53:39

And so in many ways, I'm, you know, after listening to it, I mean, he's bad enough, but it's so tragic that no one—now,

01:53:45

I hope there was someone in his congregation—but that they gave him, it wasn't a standing ovation, but they clapped at the end of his comments where he was really mischaracterizing the people who were raising good biblical objections.

01:53:58

We should not be—marriage is a sacred ceremony in the eyes of God. We should not be participating in unbiblical marriage ceremonies.

01:54:09

And that doesn't just go for gay weddings. If you know someone who has had an unbiblical divorce and say they're going off because of adultery and marrying someone new, you should not be going to that wedding, in my view.

01:54:21

That's sort of a similar thing, but this is just really tragic, really tragic.

01:54:27

Well, Rallo, make sure we have your mailing address in Rio Rancho, New Mexico, so you can receive a free copy of Stockholm Christianity, and that will be shipped to you by cvbbs .com,

01:54:39

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and we thank, once again, Discovery .press for providing us with these free books.

01:54:46

And if you could, please move on to what we can do about it. And I already know that I want you to come back for part two of this discussion at some point, but please let us know what we can do.

01:55:00

Yeah, thank you. I really—I wrote this book, yes, I do expose things, but my heart was trying to give things that people could do, because I think that's where the rubber meets the road, and people don't need just another expose.

01:55:15

So, one thing, where do you or your kids or your church get your information from about current events and things happening in the world?

01:55:23

Too many Christians, in my view, often go to the same source that the secularists do, and so they end up having their points of view transformed, even, you know, they're not even thinking about it because they're getting information from the sources.

01:55:37

So, not only be like the Bereans, as in testing what you're learning and hearing, but make sure that you get good information sources.

01:55:44

And I tell about how to do that, and I actually go in -depth about how you may be being manipulated by the things that you don't even think about when you're getting information.

01:55:53

Another one is do no harm. How are you stewarding your time, treasure, and talent?

01:55:59

Too many people are, say, writing checks to Christian universities that they attended 30 years ago because they have a warm, fuzzy feeling, even though they may know that that Christian university no longer is solid.

01:56:11

Well, if you know that they're no longer solid, but you're writing a check out of a misplaced sense of sentimentality or gratitude, you're actually part of the problem because you're enabling something you know to be wrong.

01:56:24

And so, I think you need to take an inventory in your life of what are you actually supporting through your time, treasure, talent?

01:56:30

You're volunteering. I think that who's raising your kids? Are you really raising your kids, or are you ceding it to the public schools, to TikTok, to social media, or you're hoping that a youth group in your church is going to raise them for you?

01:56:44

They're not. I mean, I hope they're doing good things at your church, but as parents, there are lots of things you can do and go through several specifics to make sure that you're the ones raising your kids.

01:56:55

I have 21 things, actually, that people can do. If you're a board member, an elder, or a deacon, or a board member of a

01:57:03

Christian ministry, there are all sorts of things you can do. I talk about the power of no and how most boards try to govern by consensus.

01:57:10

So, if one person objects and raises an issue that needs to be done, you could actually fundamentally change the trajectory of that conversation or that decision because boards often are asked to rubber stamp things, but you have the authority to make sure that it's not rubber stamped.

01:57:27

So, those are just a few things. I know we're declining in time, but there's a lot of things that people can do.

01:57:33

Well, I definitely want you to come back, and perhaps we can focus the entire two hours after a recap on what we can do.

01:57:41

Yeah, no, that sounds good. Okay, and sorry, Justine in Ocoee, Florida, we don't have time for your question, and the other folks that are waiting in line, we thank you for writing in and taking the time, but if you could resend your questions the next time we have our guest,

01:58:02

Dr. John G. West, on the program, and I will keep you all abreast of when that will be,

01:58:08

God willing. Well, thank you so much, brother, for being such a superb and learned guest to have on the program to discuss a vital topic that places evangelical churches in peril.

01:58:27

It's such a tragedy to see so many, not only churches, but individuals succumbing to the lures of the left and the fear of men, those who are fearing men more than God, and I want to repeat the websites that you can go to.

01:58:45

Discovery .org is the organization where my guest, John G. West, is the vice president, and if you go to Discovery .press,

01:58:55

you can also find out the books and resources available there, including

01:59:02

Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, and you can find out more about his films and documentaries as well.

01:59:10

But I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater