WWUTT 1125 Q&A Jesus Amnesia, Bible Rebinding, Woke Worship, Moore Kookiness?

Conference Introduction and Upcoming Questions

Did the man Jesus have no memory of being with God? What is woke worship? What do we need to know about it? And did you hear about the latest thing that went on with Beth Moore and Christine Cain? The answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

Hey everyone! We are reporting Recording from our hotel room. Yes! So it might sound a little different than usual. But we are at the G3 conference in Atlanta and have been having a grand old time. It's been just as wonderful as last year meeting all the people that we meet and and having great conversations.

Yeah, and some people who haven't heard of us before so that's been really neat.

So we are we've been having a lot of fun enjoyed meeting everybody. We've had a few questions submitted to us, and we're gonna hold on to a few of them until next week. Yeah, because they'll take a little bit longer to answer.

That's right, so this time around we ask the questions. So I've talked with Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Luke's who does the Bible rebinding. We've talked about him many times. So he's sharing his testimony here in just a moment.

Also talked with Dwayne Atkinson at the Bar podcast. I've been on the Bar before, but he's not been on what before? That's right. So we got him on and then talking with Daryl Harrison. I was hoping to get him and Virgil at the same time, but I think Virgil had left right when I got over to Daryl.

But of course, they're from Just Thinking which is part of the Bar podcast network, and they did a.

Live podcast. That was awesome. I got to sit in on that. I was so excited. Becky and Sonia went to that. Yeah, we jetted off.

Yeah, they abandoned me. I was left alone at the table fending for myself. I actually didn't know what I was doing. They had set the table up and systematized everything, and I'm like, what am I doing here?

I'm just gonna shake hands and talk to people. We got a great location this year. If you remember coming to the table last year, we were way back in the corner. Which was okay. It worked out. It was, right, because people would come and talk to us.

We had a lot of room over there. This time around, we're more centrally located, and we're directly across from where James White and Rich were sitting from Alpha and Omega. So at one point, they were sitting there, and everybody that was around our table went over there.

I was like, oh good, I've got time to eat my sandwich now.

And then we're right next to Steve Lawson.

Yeah, one passion table is right next to ours.

And that was so amazing to see him interact with everybody. Yes. That was so cool. But we picked up, in his line that was waiting to talk to him in person, we picked up some of their people. We're like, hey, have you heard about us?

Yeah. We were waiting.

So line forming by our table. Some people were apologizing. We're sorry for standing in the way. No, here's a pamphlet.

Yes, it was awesome. We passed out all our pamphlets today. We did. We went through 100 pamphlets. Yesterday, I guess. Yeah, Thursday. Yes. Oh man, we were out in one day.

My parents live in Atlanta, and so my dad is attempting to print some more of the brochures for us. Yeah. So we hope we'll have some more to hand out. I don't know how that's going to work out or not.

We did quite a few books, too. Yeah, we did quite a few books. I've also handed out the pamphlets as a tract, because it's got the gospel on the back side. Amen. So some unbelievers have even received a tract.

You might be thinking, how are there unbelievers at G3? Well, there are. There are. But that wasn't where we handed them out. It was actually outside the arena. But anyway, so we're going to get to those interviews in just a moment.

Oh, that wasn't all our interviews. No.

Justin Peters is the other one. I was going to say, there was a proposal in there, right?

Yes. So when I was proposing to Justin Peters, of course, Justin is in his wheelchair, and so I was down on one knee, and my recorder is red. So I'm holding out this recorder, and some people were taking pictures from a distance, and it's like...

It looks like a red box. Yeah, it looks like a little red box that I'm holding out to them. So Dana from Kansas even asked the question, is he handing him a juice box? That's my recorder. It's a little red recorder.

That's going to be the interview we'll play last, and I asked Justin about a recent video that went viral from Beth Moore and Christine Kane. Oh, okay. Priscilla Shirer, which actually is the way you pronounce her name.

Oh, okay. Yes, even though I've always been saying Shirer-er-er-er. Yeah, extending it. It looks that way. It's like Shire-er. Yes. It's just Shire. Anyway, so she had surgery recently, which was, of course, a very serious surgery.

It was a lung surgery. Oh, man. Something very worth praying for. But Beth Moore and Christine Kane were in their car talking about how they were going to do some prayer march around the church and anoint with oil.

So they had the Word. Beth is holding up her Bible. Christine Kane is holding up this vial of oil and saying, this is the Holy Spirit. So the Bible is the Word. The vial is the Holy Spirit. Okay. Like the Spirit's not in the Word?

Oh, man. I talked with Justin about that, and we had a little brief conversation about that and what James 5 says regarding praying for one another that you may be healed and anointing with oil, calling the elders to do that.

So that's going to be the latter interview, and you'll hear within that interview even the audio from Beth Moore and Christine Kane in case you didn't see that video. But first of all, a quick question that we received while we were at G3.

Yes. This is from Lisa in Bristol, Tennessee. And like I said, there's some other questions we got, too. We're going to wait until next week. We're going to bring them home with us and answer those at home because they'll take a little bit longer, and we've already got 40 minutes of interviews filled up for this episode.

We do. It's exciting. So Lisa said, Pastor Gabe, at the G3 conference, Derek Thomas said that the man Jesus had no memory of being with God. If Jesus was fully God, all-knowing, and fully man, or as I have heard you say, very God and very man, and considering that Jesus prayed in John 17 5 to glorify me in your presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed, how can this be that Jesus had no memory of being with God?

Or did I misunderstand what he said? I will also ask my pastor, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Well, thank you so much, Lisa. It was a pleasure to have you come by the table.

Yes, twice. Three times, I think, maybe.

She walked by a few times. I'll recognize her tomorrow, or on Friday. I'll see her again. And we've had several folks come by. You can come by more than once. We love to see you.

Yes, please. And stop and say hi more than once, too. We enjoy the talking.

The Humiliation of Christ and What the Gospels Reveal

So we have to believe, to some degree, that Jesus did not have a certain amount of recollection of his presence with the Father, because there are statements that we have in Scripture, like, for example, in Matthew 24, in the Olivet Discourse, when Jesus is talking about what to expect on that day, he says in Matthew 24, 36,.

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. So there were some things. There was knowledge that Jesus gave up in becoming man. So to some degree, we do acknowledge that there was a kind of amnesia.

Yes, a fogginess, or what do they call it? Dim, like the dim glass.

I was about to say, are you just about to call Jesus dim-witted?

No! Oh my goodness.

You're so bad. No. Yeah, the dim glass is what...

You can't see everything clearly yet.

Right, where Paul talks about that in 1 Corinthians 13. Yes, I get it, I know, but it was still kind of funny. I had to sneak a funny in it. And then we also have, in Luke chapter 2, that after Jesus submitted himself to Mary and Joseph, it said that in Luke 2 .52, Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

So to increase is going to indicate that he is growing in something. He lacked something in wisdom. And so this was certainly things that he was learning, that he was growing into, as he was progressing as a man.

Very God, very man is the statement that I've used. And by the way, I get that from R .C. Sproul. So instead of fully God, fully man, which can be confusing. So how can you be both at the same time? We say rather in Latin, vera homo, vera Deus.

He is very God and very man. And still the fully God, fully man, it's still the same aspect, but it's just better to word it as we would understand him to be very God and very man. As a man, were there things that Jesus did not remember about heaven or time with the Father?

Certainly. There were at least some things he did not remember. Here's our air conditioner in our hotel room kicking on right now. Yeah, sorry. But did he have, as Derek Thomas said, did he have no recollection?

Jesus had no memory of being with God. Consider, first of all, Luke 16. Because it's there in Luke 16 where Jesus talks about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man went to a place of torment. Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, or what we would consider paradise or heaven.

And Jesus is telling this story. Who could tell this story but Jesus, who's actually seen the other side and can tell us about those things, who can relay to us the character of the Father because he knows the character of the Father.

So how would Jesus be able to do that unless he had some memory of those things of the other side? The transfiguration on the Mount of Transfiguration, what's being revealed to the apostles there is the glory that is veiled by his flesh.

So there is a moment where he, before Peter, James, and John, takes away the veil of flesh so they see his glory with Moses and Elijah with him there as well. And there is a moment where the man, the very man part, is kind of stripped away.

And you see the very God aspect of Christ. So anyway, I hope that makes sense. There are certainly some things there that are quite mysterious. And that's definitely going to be the case because we're talking about divine things.

So they're always going to be even somewhat confusing and mysterious to us.

And even to explain it in words is impossible.

Right. So very good question, Lisa. I appreciate that. And without further ado, this is our first testimony. The Bible that I was reading from here is made and bound by Jeffrey Rice at Post Tenebrous Luke's Bible Rabbining.

And I had the chance to catch up with Jeffrey and ask him how he came into this craft and how he came to know the Lord. So I'm here with Jeffrey Rice, who is the founder, would you say that? Founder of Post Tenebrous Luke's Bible Rabbining.

I say Lux. He says Luke. I'm going to go with him while I'm with him.

I don't know. I can't say that I know Latin any better than anybody else.

I look to him as a teacher, so we'll just figure it out as we go.

Now you've got this Bible rebinding. Now we call it a ministry. You certainly do ministry through it, but it's also your job. It's the craft that you have learned doing this to the glory of God. James White's talked about this on The Dividing Line.

You had the privilege of gifting John MacArthur with a 50th anniversary Bible this past fall at Truth Matters. People are praising this work, this craftsmanship that you do in the rebinding, the leather work that you do on the Bible.

I mean, all different kinds of Bibles that you've had at your shop. It's been going really well at G3. I think you're just down to like 10 more left?

Yeah, 10 or 12 more. First day.

How did you get into doing this and making this your job?

Again, first I'd like to say all glory to God. My whole life, it feels like every time I try to do something, it just would never work out. I've always been a guy that dreamed too big. I was raised in American poverty.

Most nights all we had was pork and beans. The whole family gathered around one can, and we had different spoons. We moved around so much that I stopped trying in school. There was one year we moved around six times, so I switched schools six times in one year.

I just stopped trying. I struggle with a stutter. I have dyslexia. I have a learning disability. So I just knew that school wasn't for me. I got involved with a gang. Well, actually, I was kidnapped at 11.

Wow. Then I got involved with a gang at 14. So I was just on this bad road. I kicked out of school at 15, so I just started roofing. My dad put me to work roofing. I roofed houses for 25 years. I became a master at copper.

I could form copper around chimneys. I woke up one morning, and I just fell over. I stood up and passed out. About two times I tried again. I'd stand up. My equilibrium would just give out, and I'd pass out.

It turns out I got positional vertigo, but I didn't know I had PTSD. So when I would get dizzy, I would start to panic, and my brain would shut off from the PTSD. Wow. But I had bought a Bible from Evangelical Bibles.

It was a Schuyler. And as I didn't know what I was going to do, I had applied for different jobs, and every time they would give me a physical, they'd have me to lay down on my back and stand up, and each time I'd pass out.

I was on a ladder, 12 foot in the air, for an electrical company, lifted my head up to put a screw in and passed out, and instead of falling to the ground, I fell over on duct work, and it kept me from falling.

Wow. But I bought this Bible, and I was looking at it, and I said, man, I could probably make this. It's one of the Schuyler. Schuyler's a real nice Bible. Yeah, real nice $250 Bible. Wow. And my wife was like, there's no way.

And I was like, no, I can make this. And so I conned her in to let me sell her Bible, which was a Schuyler, and I sold some other Bibles, and I ended up buying some leather material and stuff like that, some tools, and I just started trying to do it.

And man, let me tell you something. Them corners, the hand-plated corners, that's tough. That's tough. I would cry, literally. At this time, I was 38 years old, grown man, crying, praying that God would guide my hands as I was working.

This is what I had in my mind. I was unable to work and provide for my family. The Bible says if a man can't provide for his own family, he's worse than an unbeliever.

This was going in my head. Right, that's the fear that's on your heart.

And I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew, I knew that I was His. I knew that I belonged to God. I knew that I never, even in my poverty, I never had to walk to my neighbor's house and ask for a sandwich to feed my daughter.

God always provided for me, and I knew that He was going to provide for me. And I would just pray and cry, cry out to God to use this to bless me. And man, has He ever. Yeah. And I have, like, and the way that I go about constructing my Bibles, it's no different than how I would roof a house.

It's no different than how I would flash a chimney. And the way that I go about advertising is no different than I'd advertise in my street life. Yes. Believe it or not, the way, you know, I was involved with a gang.

I'd get known in the neighborhood, whether it was selling drugs or whatever. Everywhere I'd go, people knew what I did. I made sure I advertised myself. When I was single, I'd see a pretty girl I liked, I walked over and introduced myself.

Yeah. All she could do was say no. Right. And so, in this business, when I see someone that can advance me, I walk up and introduce myself. Show them what I can do. Right. All they can do is tell me no.

Right, right. And so I just took chances, man. You miss every shot you don't take. So everything else that you had done previously, where you were trying to advance the passions of your own flesh. Passions of my own flesh.

Now you're doing to advance the Word of God. Absolutely. With good craftsmanship. Absolutely.

Yeah. God is using it. All the stuff I've learned in my life, even though it was bad when I learned it. Yeah. But that same method, I'm using it to the glory of God. And He is using it. Amen.

In a big way. Yeah. So one of the things I asked Jeffrey to do for me, my dad had left a Bible that's been his for over 30 years. It's almost as old as I am. And he left it at my house back in September.

Lives here in the Atlanta area. So I sent it to Jeffrey. Yeah. And I said, hey, can you rebind this? I mean, it's old, fallen apart. Doesn't even hold to the cover anymore. And Jeffrey rebound this Bible for me, and we gave it to my dad today.

And he was just thrilled to see it. Yeah. So that was something. That was ministry to my dad. I mean, did you ever think making these Bibles, you'd be able to minister to John MacArthur? No, absolutely not.

I never even looked at it as a ministry until people started writing me and emailing me. Okay. Thanking me. Yeah. Because they said, man, I just can't put this Bible down. Yeah. I can't put it down. Right.

And I want to thank you. We got one right here in front of me, which is my wife's, which we got from you. Yeah. Yeah. So we talked about how you came into using your passion and your trade and your talent to work hard, which you even said you didn't know anything about leather binding.

No. You just liked the Schuyler Bible. And you thought, I could do this. Yep. So this is a man with a desire to work and to do his work for the glory of God that learned a skill, and now God is continuing to bless you with that work.

I refuse to lay on a couch.

Yeah. I refuse to lay on a couch and let my wife provide for me. I had to get up and work. Thank you. Do whatever I can do to help. Yes. And now, my wife at the time was a lawyer working at the county clerk's office making fairly good money.

Right. And because of God's blessing us, she has now been, she quit her job nine months ago. She works full time for our business. That's wonderful.

Yeah. So we talked about how you came into that job. Tell me how you became a believer. When did you find Christ? And you went from the dead man that you were to alive in Christ.

Well, 9 -11, I was playing, whenever the towers fell, I was living in a trailer park, playing hacky sack, drinking a beer. And next thing I know, people start running out, talking about, we're going to war, we're going to war.

Yeah. And some people were saying, this is in the Bible, this is in the Bible. And I was like, what are y 'all talking about? Y 'all crazy. And so I kept drinking my beer, went in there and watched what was going on.

And where were you living at the time? I was living in a trailer park across the street from Nashville Fairgrounds.

Okay, so you're not in New York City, you're in Nashville. Yeah, I'm in Nashville. Everybody's going crazy over here.

Everybody's going crazy. And again, people kept saying that it was in the Bible. And I was like, you know what, I'll find out. And at this time, I couldn't read a lick. I was kicked out of school at 15 for gang violence.

I've always had a learning disability. I'm dyslexic. Yeah. I have a real bad stutter. And so whenever it came to school, I just moved so much, I just refused to try anymore. And so I found I was like, look, I'll figure it out.

So I picked up a Bible. I'd read three words, skip 10 of them babies. Yeah. And eventually I could read five words and skip eight. Just every day, I would pick that Bible up and I'd read it. And so this was 2001.

2003, I started going to a little Southern Baptist church.

That's what they got in Nashville. They got plenty of Southern Baptist churches. We got lots of Southern Baptist churches.

I was going there for about two weeks. I walked up to the thing. I guess I was trying to get saved. And the guy asked me where I come from. I told him where I come from. And he said, well, do we welcome him in?

They welcomed me in. And I didn't know what happened. Four weeks later, they had me teaching Sunday school. Oh, my goodness. I didn't know anything about that. I had been reading the Bible, stuff like that.

Well, 2005, I heard Ray Comfort preaching on the streets on TV. Okay. And I saw myself naked before God, exposed as a false convert. And I repented, put my faith in Christ. And, you know, it's been that.

That's the moment. That's the telephone pole of my life. I tell people all the time, like, you can be driving down the road, and you stop at a red light. And these are things that when you stop at a red light, and you look down for a second, and a car pulls up beside you, and just for a split second, you feel like you're moving.

So you hit the brakes hard. And you need something to look at that you know that doesn't move. Right. Like a telephone pole. Right. To know that you haven't moved. And so that moment when I heard Ray Comfort preach, and I saw myself naked before God, and I cried out to him to save me, that's my telephone pole of life that I can look back to and say, God saved me.

No matter what's going on in my life, no matter if I have fallen in sin, that right there tells me, Jeff, you are a Christian. You need to repent. Or no matter what it is, that's the moment that I look back to, listen to Ray Comfort preach on the street, open air preach, and I know that God saved me.

He gave me saving faith that day, man. It's weird, you know, because, again, I thought I was a Christian. I walked up to the altar. I did what he told me to do. I told him where I was from. Right, right, yeah.

I didn't know how this stuff went, you know.

Tell us where you're from and what your name is, and you're saved. Yeah, yeah, you know.

I believe TBN produces more atheists than any second college. Oh, my goodness. You're not kidding. Yeah. No joke. But I read my Bible every day. And every day I wake up, put my trust in Christ, and I attend church, I get involved in church, I read my Bible, I pray, I sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

I devote myself to the authority of Scripture. Yes. What God has given us to live holy, and, man, that's what I do. Yeah. I want to live holy before a holy, holy, holy God. And I feel miserable. But that's what I try to do.

Yeah, right, right. Well, that's Christ. Christ's blood who covers us and justifies us before the Father. And this is the word that we find in the Bible, the precious Scriptures that God has given to us that we may know, we may see our sin and His holiness and our need for a Savior in light of that.

That's the message we get from Scripture, and you've put it in such a beautiful package with the leather work that you do. So I'm so grateful that the first time I encountered you was at G3 last year.

Yes. So grateful to see you again here this year.

And, brother, keep up that great work. When I heard, like, I didn't know who he was. Gabe, I didn't know who you were. I didn't know your face. I never saw you before. But when you spoke, I knew. I said, what?

Years ago. Yeah. I've been listening to you since 2013, and I love you. Oh, thank you so much. And I respect you, and you are a pillar of the faith.

Well, I don't deserve that, but I sure appreciate it. Thank you so much. God bless you, brother. Thanks for taking the time to share your story with us on the broadcast. Thank you. What a wonderful story Jeffrey has.

Oh, yes. And a real sweetheart of a man. Wonderful to meet him. But check out his website, Post Tenebrous Luke's Bible Rabbining, and see the kind of workmanship that he does. It is amazing. Yes. So then our next interview, this is with

The Bar Podcast, Just Thinking, and Woke Worship

I'm going to put both of these together. This is with Dwayne Atkinson of The Bar and then Daryl Harrison of Just Thinking, which is through The Bar Podcast Network. And he works at GT World. And he works at Grace to You, which we talk about that at the end because he talks about some Grace to You giveaways they're doing at G3.

Oh, that's cool. So I am here with Dwayne from The Bar Podcast. That's right. I've had the privilege of being on The Bar, and now he's on When We Understand the Text. What? Yeah. So tell us about this ministry.

You've got The Bar Podcast t-shirts out here, and then you also have Just Thinking. Correct. I want to get a hold of Daryl over here too. Sure, sure, sure.

So The Bar Podcast started about four and a half years ago. I was inspired by podcasts to start a podcast, and The Bar stands for biblical reform. And I had a team with me, and whenever the platform built, we got to a place, man, where I was like, man, I would love to start other podcasts under the network.

And that's actually how we got to Just Thinking. Virgil was on my team, and then I met Daryl through a blog. And then I was like, man, these two guys go really good together. It ended up being magic, man.

That's great.

It's a terrific broadcast. Yeah. And so we had, even here at G3, a live recording. Yeah, man, it was awesome. Of Just Thinking, which I want to talk to Daryl and see how that went, what they talked about.

Because I know what they're talking about is here, since the theme is worship, they talked about woke worship. Yeah, man. So what is woke worship, and what do we need to know about it? Right.

So they're going to give you a much better definition of it. That's why I have them doing what they're doing. But what they covered, man, was the misunderstanding of trying to have a diverse congregation.

Okay. Or trying to change a service so that it appeases blacks or whites, but that we stay focused on the gospel and stay focused on giving God worship, not trying to cater to a congregation. And that we're not required to have a mixed congregation, as long as everybody has the heart of Christ.

Yes, right.

So that's the nutshell of it. So you have the demographics that'll come out and tell you, okay, your area is this much percent white, this much percent black, this much Hispanic. And so you'll have churches that'll want to make the congregation.

We need to be able to look into the audience and see exactly the demographic of our area, or we're doing something wrong. That's wrong. So, yeah. Then the basis becomes the statistics and demographic information rather than God's Word and preaching the Word of God.

Because God builds His church.

That's right, absolutely. He does that work. And so we don't have to move, skew, and switch things up to make that happen. Amen.

Yes, sir. So what's the future of B .A .R.? Where do you see this going?

So the B .A .R. podcast, man, I call it the locomotive. It's the engine that's pulling everything along. It's constantly, every Tuesday you're going to have an interview with someone, either a well-known or local pastor or a seminary professor, or you just never know.

So we're going to be that constant thing that you're going to always have every Tuesday. My joke is if someone goes into a coma, wakes up, and their notification goes off, says, B .A .R., oh, it's Tuesday.

You know what I'm saying? That's right. So that's the future for the B .A .R., man. We're just thinking this is the fastest podcast growth I've ever seen, 500 ,000 downloads in less than a year. That's amazing.

And so we're going to really push on just little marketing strategies just to try to get more people listening to the Just Thinking podcast. Those guys, they're going to bring the content, so it's just a matter of me putting it in front of the right people.

Absolutely.

Yes, sir. Well, thank you so much, man, for everything that you're doing. Yeah. Now, where can people find you?

They're looking for the B .A .R.? Yeah, man. So you go to thebarpodcast .com, and right there is everything. We have all of our episodes, and also there's a tab for the B .A .R. Podcast Network where you can find Just Thinking and everybody that's in the network, as well as thebargear .com is also on that same tab.

Yes, get the hats and the T-shirts. Yeah, man, so you can represent and let people know who you like to listen to.

It's amazing the number of people I'll see walking around here. We've got B .A .R. gear on.

Wait till tomorrow. Tomorrow is G3 B .A .R. Day, man. Everybody that has B .A .R. gear is supposed to wear it tomorrow. We're going to take a big family reunion picture. That's on Friday. Yes, sir. Yep, all right.

Yes, sir.

Brother, all to the glory of God. Yes, sir, always. Thanks for doing what you do. Thank you. Now I'm standing here with Daryl Harrison, who is one half of Just Thinking Podcast, which I've said before on ours has the best name of any podcast, Just Thinking, because it's not just about thinking, but that we're thinking justly according to what God says justice is in His Word.

Indeed. Yeah. Amen. So today at G3, and we're recording this on a Thursday, but at G3 you did a live podcast recording. Right. And the theme or the focus was woke worship. Right. So our theme at G3 this year is worship.

You were talking about woke worship. Right.

What is that? Yeah, so woke worship, we defined it in the podcast as another way of talking about what I call identity ecclesiology. And with that term, we're talking about people who look for aesthetic connections within a local church.

So their focus is on pleasing their own personal worship experience by looking for a particular type of preaching, a particular type of worship or music, a particular type of fellowship before. And those criteria have to be met before they will associate themselves with the church.

So that's what's called identity ecclesiology. But when you drill that down to woke worship, we get into things like looking for a specific ethnic percentage of the congregation. We want to join a church that looks a certain percentage like I do.

So I can identify with that church ethnically or with regard to sex. I need a church that's uplifts women or something in that regard. But the point we're making is that Christ and his gospel are secondary to a local church meeting your personal ecclesiastical perspectives and demands.

That's what happens in woke worship.

That's what happens in woke worship. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly right. Christ and his word become secondary. And the focus is more on man.

It's more on man. It's more on you because you've convinced yourself that the mission of the church is to please you. Yeah. As opposed to pleasing Christ. So we've inverted the role of the church. We've inverted our understanding of the church so that we make that understanding all about us.

Yeah. All about me and my wants, my desires, my wishes, the church satisfying me as opposed to the church satisfying the Lord of the church who is Jesus Christ. Yeah. Amen.

So somebody identifies the problem, but they're like, I just don't know how to word what the problem is. So if I'm talking to a friend about this, it's wrong, but how do I tell them it's wrong?

Well, I think the one thing we need to do first, Gabe, is don't assume that it's a problem. And what I mean by that, we pointed this out on the podcast today where we quoted Dr. King from 1960, where Dr. King asserted that 11 o 'clock a .m. on Sunday mornings is the most segregated hour in America and that that has to change.