KJVOnlyism, James Snapp Visits St. Catherine’s, Isaiah 10 & Leighton Flowers, Ken Wilson & Augustine

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May 6, 2020

Well the title says it all! Tomorrow we will open the phones at the top of the hour at 1:30 pm EDT and take four callers before moving back into teaching material. Join us then! Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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00:35: Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. We are back again. It is Thursday Looking forward to the fact that we've got a little storm system coming in over the weekend
00:44: It's gonna drop us a little bit closer to normal 105 degrees today. I think the normal is like 92.
00:49: So yeah, it's It's a cooking and then I look and they're expecting snow back east in New England, it's like Okay, okay, and if you're sitting there going see see the
01:04: Pope was right the earth is rebelling I just I just stop and and I think back and it's funny history really helps you here, but if you studied the history of Joseph Smith and the
01:19: Dating and the time of the first vision One of the elements in figuring out where the
01:25: Smith family was Was the fact that Lucy Mac Smith makes reference to a lot of crop failures one year due to June snow well you can find out when that was if you can you they were keeping records back then and So there was actually snow in June in New York And you can figure out what year that was and that fits into the whole timeline
01:57: The timeline that demonstrates the first vision did not take place as Joseph Smith eventually fictionalized it.
02:02: But anyway So yeah, that's that's happened before and that wasn't due to man in the 1800s the early 1800s that wasn't because of SUVs that wasn't because of caltoots or anything else
02:19: That was just how things went So live with it. Anyway, let's start off With a video,
02:29: I'm not sure if this is gonna work real well because Rich is on the phone, but we're gonna start off with a video.
02:37: We are often told that King James only ism the worst forms of King James only ism
02:44: We're not really saying you just have to use the King James. Actually, there are many many people that are saying
02:51: Exactly that and a couple days ago This was posted.
02:57: Oh, I'm sorry Let me see Here. Let me I do want to get this
03:06: Information correct here. I actually took the time to Enter this in here.
03:11: So there's the get info and this is mark pastor mark
03:17: D Montgomery Grace Baptist Church in Eufaula, Alabama Eufaula, Alabama Mark D Montgomery is who we're gonna be listening to here and I'll get it back to full screen here
03:30: Let's listen to what? Pastor Montgomery has to say Water and hewed them out cisterns
03:41: Broken cisterns that can hold no water Let me tell you what those broken cisterns are
03:49: It's the NIV It's ASV It's NASV.
03:55: It's the ESV. It's every false Bible. It's out there That's a broken cistern.
04:01: It holds no living water You say pastor are you telling me that they can't they don't hold any living water just because they change some words or Leave out whole verses or whole chapters or whatever.
04:14: They leave out You're telling me they don't hold any of the water the living water, which is Jesus Christ. That's exactly what
04:20: I'm telling you Because it's corruptible seed Bible also refers to itself as the seed
04:28: And the Bible says being born again not of corruptible seed But of incorruptible by the
04:35: Word of God Hey, listen, if it's got corruption in it, it's not incorruptible seed
04:45: When you change the Word of God You don't believe me. Look at the book of Revelation When you change the
04:53: Word of God it changes God's Word I Mean how how simple how hard is that to understand?
05:02: When you say for God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son you have changed what
05:08: God said You have changed the meaning of John 3 16 It changes everything
05:17: Well, it's just a preference no it makes it easier to understand it doesn't make it easier to understand makes it more convoluted
05:26: So there you have now I hope you you heard what was being said there You have the absolute identification of the
05:37: Word of God with the King James version of the Bible Uh, not only do you have a text completely taken out of context to refer to modern
05:46: Bible translations and things like that but then you have Complete ignore ignorance or just oh he may just not even know that the
05:57: King James has had different forms in the past that there have been changes and edits that have been made over time and there were different versions and things like that and there are still differences between the
06:06: Oxford and Cambridge editions of the King James and All that kind of stuff. You don't really worry about it, but still the identification with the
06:17: Bible as an English Translation which did not exist for three quarters more than three quarters of the history of the
06:25: New Testament Longer than that when you include the Old Testament that becomes the
06:30: Word of God That's why I started off the King James only controversy explaining to people that in the minds of the the true
06:36: King James only The Bible alone equals the
06:41: King James Version alone. That's that is an absolute equation in their mind and their thinking and you heard it right there
06:50: So the incorruptible seed is actually an English translation So back in the day,
06:57: I just grabbed this This is the Vaticanus Bible I showed this to you a couple days ago and it first became it's this is just the
07:04: Just the Gospels, but it's it's a very nicely done. It's actually big enough that I can read it
07:11: Yeah, I can still read it without my reading glasses, but I would probably want to read it without I would probably want to use them
07:18: But this is a breakdown of the four Gospels as found in Codex Vaticanus now this would be very
07:29: Representative very representative of The manuscripts that would have been present at the
07:37: Council of Nicaea in 325 All right. So what we're being told is
07:46: That no one could have been saved by this Because it differs from the King James Version of the Bible so what
07:55: What these guys believe in the Doctrine the Trinity They don't recognize their reliance upon those that came before them, but their theory
08:07: Which they present as gospel Basically says there weren't any Christians back then.
08:13: I don't know how you could have any Christians until 1611 Because you didn't you there is no manuscript
08:21: That reads identical to the King James Version of the Bible or to the Texas Receptus that moment
08:26: That's obviously the Greek foundation of it so Do they think about that?
08:32: No, they're this is this is the essence of Of King James only ism it it ignores the history of the
08:41: Bible it ignores The text of the Bible and it is only concerned about the modern
08:48: American context I've never understood why King James only ism Flourishes outside of the
08:55: American South and I don't just mean Oregon or Canada you'll find
09:01: King James only ism in the far reaches of Africa and I've never understood why
09:08: Because anyone who speaks more in one language should be able to see through this stuff very very easily but unfortunately a lot of people do not but it's out there and It is a regular part of the
09:21: IFB preachers Twitter feed Where that and women wearing pants are the two primary issues that the mention poor
09:35: Poor Hillary Clinton. She gets it gets it there all the time Okay in the textual critical area
09:43: What did I do with that? Oh there it is This morning at 8 a .m.
09:48: Elijah Hickson at the evangelical textual criticism blog announced James snap discovers two more folios of 064 now when
10:00: I first looked at this, there's a picture from up on the hill of St.
10:06: Catherine's Monastery, and so I'm like wow James snap is is
10:12: How does how does he be how would anyone travel there right now is the main thing
10:18: I'm wondering about how do you How do you even get there? during the days of kovat 19
10:25: But once you start reading it what what this is what this is it's sort of like Jason Lyle Discovered a planet he did but you know how he did it
10:38: Staring at a computer screen. Well, how do you do that? Well, there's all these databases made available publicly
10:45: That you can sift through and of course Jason writes computer programs and stuff
10:51: And so what you do is you find planets by looking at stars and when the star has a regular diminishment in its brightness in its luminosity, that's
11:03: Brought considered normally to be due to a planet Passing between us and that star
11:11: So obviously that particular solar system has to be pretty much Flat on to us for us to be able to see this type of thing
11:18: But we found many many many what are called exoplanets planets outside of the solar system by being able to chart
11:28: The the stars and see when they have regular pulsations in essence that that might fit into the parameters of what having a
11:40: Planet sort of dim it for a second or briefly as it passes in front of the the the star between us and the star
11:48: So that's what he was doing can tell he's a whole lot of fun to be around on the Friday nights
11:54: Doing that same thing with James snap because what's James snap doing? He's looking through manuscripts at the
12:03: VMR the the visual manuscript room out of Munster and He noticed that 0 6 4 in the
12:14: VMR has gaps between Matthew 26 70 and 27 13 in between Matthew 27 30 and 27 44 says it's only like 14 verses.
12:24: That's like a page or something like that and Not sure how he did this where he was making a catalog
12:32: And saw the the same material someplace else Don't know
12:38: I didn't read all the stuff but realized that what you he didn't discover anything what
12:47: What you can do today, which is really cool. I'm not I'm not putting this down at all
12:52: I think it's great that he said hey, look at that. And hey, look at that you put them together
12:58: Hey, there it is. This is happening a lot CSNTM has helped a lot with doing so this
13:03: CSNTM is the Center for the Study of New Testament manuscripts as they're going around photographing manuscripts
13:08: They'll all of a sudden sort of notice you know these pages look different than other pages and then you start doing some digging around and What we thought was one manuscript is actually two manuscripts where we're a later manuscripts has been inserted into another manuscript
13:26: And that's why that's one of the reasons why the number of New Testament manuscripts keeps changing is because You might find out.
13:36: Well, we thought we had one manuscript here. It's actually two or So that would increase the number of manuscripts or you go.
13:44: Hey, wait a minute the manuscript That contains these books in this library at this museum
13:51: That looks identical to this manuscript over here that happens to contain the different books.
13:56: Oh, it's the same manuscript it's been broken up into two parts and so now the number goes down because what you thought was two manuscripts is actually one manuscript and Then that's why you have to have
14:12: Places like Munster then you've got to submit all that stuff and go We've assigned this number to this one and this number this one, but actually they're the same manuscript now
14:25: What do you do about that? Because what if someone wrote a paper on this manuscript over here that you now find as a part of this one and You reassign this number over this one now knowing is gonna know which one that is
14:37: Especially if you give that number to somebody else so this cataloging thing is
14:43: Very complicated and it's very modern Because remember we we've told the story before down there in the 1550
14:52: Stephanus You have The story of what what took place with Beza where Stephanus had what we call
15:07: Codex Bezae Canterburgensis Codex D. He had access to it a lot of people didn't know that for a long time and then it was eventually given to Beza and So Beza has the 1550
15:21: Stephanus which has references to the letter beta Which is
15:27: Stephanus's beta manuscript, which is Bezae but Beza didn't know it was
15:33: Bezae and so He thinks now he has two manuscripts reading the same way when it's actually the same manuscript
15:39: He just didn't realize it because there was no there could not be it was be impossible to have a centralized
15:49: Cataloging mechanism to be able to tell which manuscripts are which and so it's only been in modern times
15:56: Where you can have? Well, initially it was microfilm A lot of these manuscripts were microfilmed many many years ago and if you ever if you've ever worked with microfilm who
16:09: Remember remember the mimeograph machine. Oh, yeah, that was about that same level of technology
16:16: Yeah, so Modern times great. It's awesome. It's wonderful to be able to do this type of stuff.
16:23: Congratulations James snap, but See when I first read this, I'm I'm trying to figure
16:28: James snap with that Massive Church of Christ beard Um hitchhiking through the desert to get to St.
16:39: Catharine's Monastery when actually he was sitting in his office staring at large print screens
16:46: And track this thing down and that's that's good job James. Well done But I guarantee you one thing
16:53: I I can guarantee you that James snap would rather have gone to st.
16:58: Catharine's just This because you're probably aware of the fact that the
17:04: Indiana Jones character was is rumored to have been anyways I don't know if it was and proven to have been based off of count von tischendorf
17:12: Who did go to st. Catharine's and in those days to get in st Catharine's you had to ride up in a wicker basket up over the over the walls
17:21: So I mean that's called a lift literally and So I have a feeling that That James snap would love to go to st.
17:31: Catharine's if the opportunity were afforded to him But that's not how he did this one did it on did it online? That's that's good detective work, and that was just posted this morning
17:39: So I thought I'd mentioned that Elijah Hickson mentioned that this morning, and I think that's pretty pretty cool That's case one little thing other one other quick thing
17:49: It saddens me in light of the Panic of 2020 that's so it's going to be called in future years the panic 2020
18:02: One of one of our rovers on Mars And it's this just disgusts me
18:11: The budget to keep it running has been slashed So they're just simply not to be able to do as many experiments
18:19: Even though that it's there. It's our you know we already spent all the money to send it there We're not get as much out of it
18:26: Because the budget's been cut well everybody's budget we got no a Matter of days into this thing we printed enough funny money to run most nations for 50 years and We gave it away to special interests that will never do anything to enrich our lives at all and Just the amount of money that was given to various Leftist organizations could have tripled their budget for Exploration of space, but no no it went to line the pockets of the elites and the special interests and A lot of you know whenever I talk about stuff like this a lot of people well
19:12: We shouldn't be doing that stuff anyways. That's not the government's role blah blah blah blah well Elon Musk and those folks
19:18: I think they're doing amazing things But they haven't sent anything to Mars yet and we have and You may not know
19:29: How much of the ease of your modern life is due to the space program, but a tremendous amount of it is
19:38: Not only that I'm just I personally think it is a privilege to live in a day
19:45: Where we are seeing things? That no one else has ever seen
19:51: We are learning things that no generation before us could have ever even dreamed of a
19:58: Couple nights ago. I got up at 3 o 'clock in the morning And went out in the backyard, and I set up my scope now.
20:07: I'm in the middle of a light dome Can't see deep space objects hardly at all from Phoenix.
20:12: It's too much well the air is actually not bad real bad right now Thanks to the shutdown But the lights are still on and so it's just you look up And it's it's glows the whole sky glows.
20:24: It's not and I don't mean from starlight. I mean from streetlights Anyway, but if you want to see stars, and if you want to see planets
20:35: Stuff that is has its own light source in essence. You can still do that from my backyard and So I did and I'm working on Figuring out how to use my camera
20:48: With my scope to take some planetary shots some star shots a few things like that and So I'm looking at Saturn and Some of the the visible moons of Saturn Saturn has something like 64
21:13: Moons of various sizes Only some of which are visible from from Earth But I'm thinking about Titan Which by the way is interesting
21:25: Titan is larger than Mercury So why is it a moon and not a planet well because it doesn't circle the
21:33: Sun But obviously that's relevant to the whole Pluto thing you know the big Everybody got involved with arguing is
21:39: Pluto a planet or not well Pluto has a moon. It's almost. It's over half its own size
21:47: And Titan's almost as big as Pluto I think But the point is
21:53: Titan is a huge body visible from Earth and Yet it has its own atmosphere, and it's so thick no one had ever seen
22:02: No human eye well you couldn't see from Earth anyways even with the best telescope really But even when we had flown
22:12: Voyager by and Things like that we had never seen the surface of Titan until the
22:20: Cassini probe Which dropped the Huygens? probe into the atmosphere of Titan and It beamed back before the atmosphere fried it.
22:34: It's mainly ammonia It beamed back pictures of the surface of Titan the thing about that What I feel sorry honestly for the many many people who live their lives and never
22:54: Never turn the music off long enough To sit back and just be filled with wonder because as a
23:03: Christian God made Titan and and he formed that world and To be privileged to see to live in a day where we have we have
23:23: Studied God's creation the point where we can actually send a probe out there and see what the surface of Titan looks like from beneath the clouds and And We actually have come to understand it has massive underground oceans
23:44: The moon actually sort of wobbles in shape because of the the the tides of the oceans under its surface
23:54: I mean, it's just fascinating You know it it's cool stuff.
24:01: I'm sorry. I shouldn't have I wasn't planning going off on all this but Anyway, it just bugs me to no end that Because of the foolishness, and I I do believe that time will prove out the utter foolishness of how we have responded over the past literal months that not only will we
24:24: Learn less in the future, but it'll take us longer to learn what we will learn There are all sorts of projects are now on hold
24:32: Maybe many that will be canceled and all because of certain people who have profited hugely from the panic of 2020 all right
24:46: I Was I was putting up something called a sunshade.
24:51: I'm not sure if you know one of those is sail shades We live in Phoenix, and oh my goodness.
24:57: I Was I was out I had to be out in the Sun, and this was shortly after sunrise a couple days ago man,
25:04: I I had to have the SPF 100 sunscreen on and I'm normally moving on a bike or running or something when
25:14: I'm outside But you you have to be still on a ladder for a while Wow the
25:20: Arizona Sun is astonishing it truly is I know those of you back east right now that are shivering and getting snowed on don't don't get this but oh
25:29: Yeah, so so I have one wall on The east side of the house that just gets blasted in the morning just and so I Decided I need to put one of those sunshades up on it because it drops the amount of Radiation hitting the wall by about 80 % and yet still let's air through and stuff so it
25:54: It's it's not like putting a blanket on the house Anyway, so I'm up there You know doing the stuff you got to do that kind of stuff and just feeling that Sun just blasting away on me and It reminded me
26:10: We live in the desert here. Don't we we really do but while I was doing that I was listening to some stuff on my phone and I if I recall correctly
26:23: This came up Because I was listening to YouTube so it was in a sort of rotation of stuff so I Started listening.
26:38: I'm like, oh, this is worthwhile. This is worth covering You remember about two weeks ago we looked at Isaiah chapter 10 and we walked through the text and Talked again about the fact that we have multiple places in the page of Scripture Where we have a sinful act?
27:05: Such as in Genesis 50 the selling of Joseph into slavery Isaiah chapter 10 the
27:13: Assyrians coming against Israel and trampling like mud in the streets and raping and pillaging and and everything else
27:20: And of course crucifixion the Son of God in in Acts chapter 4 as well
27:26: These are places where? plainly the sovereign decree of God is
27:36: Guiding and determining what takes place in time. There's no question about it
27:44: If you believe in prophecy you have to believe this if you don't believe this you have no basis for believing in prophecy
27:52: You you you can sit there and try to say oh, yes, I believe that Isaiah prophesied the coming of the
27:58: Messiah but when you say But that's the only thing that's really prophesied and everything around it was just a freewill actions of mankind you clearly don't seem to understand how complicated all historical actions are and the fact is the
28:15: Continuation of the people of Israel in any means so as to be able to provide a people for the
28:20: Messiah required control of the situation with the Assyrians The Assyrians could have wiped out all the
28:29: Jews Wipe them out as people gone No, no ability to do anything, but God says no
28:38: That may have been their desire. But as Psalm 33 says man plans God plans
28:44: God's plans win but Plainly God then judges the
28:51: Assyrians so Their intent the intentions of their heart was evil God's intention was good.
28:58: So late in flowers Puts up a video decalvinizing Isaiah chapter 10, so I started listening to it
29:08: And what was interesting one of things was interesting to me is and I'm gonna skip over because at the beginning
29:15: He has some computer voice thing or I don't know what it was. Maybe it's a Online thing.
29:21: I don't know reading from Isaiah chapter 10, but what is strange?
29:29: Is they only read Five through Seven now it could be because this is one of the short videos.
29:43: He's trying to be brief It's fine, but that misses the compatibilistic text It misses the actual statements
29:52: It does have it does at least have Verse seven yet. It does not so intend nor does it plan so in its heart?
30:00: But rather it is its purpose to destroy and to cut off many nations. So you do have the recognition that God's got one intention and The Assyrians have another intention
30:15: The intention that the Assyrians have is what they'll be judged on God God has a good intention.
30:22: They have an evil intention So at least that's there so you can have multi intentionality in a divinely decreed act
30:36: But what was skipped over is the
30:43: Statement in verse 12 I will punish you through the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the palm of his haughtiness and then the the king of Assyria is going on and on saying
30:54: My hand my wisdom I did this I have understanding da -da -da -da -da -da -da and then you have the most important verse that's relevant to compatibilism in the text that's verse 15 is
31:09: The axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it
31:15: That would be like a club wielding those who lift it or like a rod lifting him who is not wood The whole point of the illustration is
31:26: That Assyria is simply the tool in God's hand and Yet the provisionist the anti decretalist
31:37: We need to come up with a better term. I think anti decretalist would be good Those that are against the decree of God deny that God has a decree
31:48: Yeah, I know it's found the Bible but that it just means something else Decretal deniers.
31:55: Well, they would say that they've been decreed to deny. So that's how they get around that I guess But here you have the very idea their emphasis is to say that The and And Layton has gotten in trouble for this, but it's the only consistent thing that he can do
32:18: From his perspective and he is he does quote from this text later on. We'll take a look at it's complete misrepresentation
32:25: We'll get to it in a second Is to say that the actions and intentions of the
32:31: Assyrians? Arose outside of God's not only
32:37: God's will and God's decree but can can only be understood as as being derived from The heart of the
32:50: Assyrians in no way They came into existence apart from God's will so stuff exists in this universe that God did not intend to exist in this universe, but it's there anyways and Man, it's a lot of ramifications that a lot of ramifications to that But that's what this verse is talking about is
33:14: The saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it who's wielding it God is so who is the active person here?
33:22: both But which one is which God is the one wielding the saw wielding the axe
33:33: He's accomplishing his purpose The Assyrian doesn't know that the
33:38: Assyrian thinks he's accomplishing his purpose But the
33:44: Creator and the creation Does that mean that is
33:49: God? Then forcing the Assyrians. No, he's not forcing them to do anything and It is only by the presuppositional rejection of the very possibility of a compatibilistic understanding
34:03: Which is fundamental to understanding latent flowers Ken Wilson and the entire provisionless group
34:09: This is this is there This is as much a starting place for them as the Islamic denial of the possibility of incarnation is a starting place for the
34:16: Muslims It's presuppositional that's why you It just it comes up over and over again, and it's taken as a given.
34:23: It's taken as a given So let's listen to what? Dr. Fliers has to say here and let's compare it with with the scriptures.
34:34: I I'm thinking I'm gonna have to ask Maybe Seb Goldswain to to do like a five -minute cool musical background type thing so I can make
34:46: Videos like this with this nice little music bed type thing in the background because if I recall there's there's music behind us
34:52: Or at least there was the beginning of who knows when I get started here. It may be gone. I don't know but I let's take a listen One Calvinist apologist, dr
35:00: James White comments on Isaiah 10 saying quote in one passage We have God's holy intention of judging his people through the means of Assyria Yet God holds
35:12: Assyria accountable for her sinful attitudes in being so used God judges them on the basis of their intentions and Since they come against Israel with a haughty attitude that does not recognize
35:26: God's power and authority. They too are judged This is compatibilism with clarity
35:32: God uses the sinful actions of the Assyrians for the good purpose of judging his people
35:38: Now I'm just gonna stop for a moment if God Intended to judge
35:49: Israel When he judged Israel not a hundred years earlier, not a hundred years later
35:57: Could he have done so in Layton Flowers world Could he have done so in Layton Flowers world the hiss you're hearing is the high -speed fan on the for some reason the
36:09: Mac is Running like anything right now. I don't know why this There may be a hung process someplace.
36:15: I don't know, but it's it's feeling pretty warm and the fan is on full So I'm watching you in there.
36:21: It's that's probably what it is. Yeah, I'm trying to find the the and it's the the Mac Is is not happy right now
36:30: So Sorry got a little distracted there when I'm he's doing this number thing.
36:36: Where is that sound coming from? It's coming from them coming from the computer. It's nothing you can do about Anyway Could God How could
36:46: God have judged? Israel at The time he desires to judge
36:53: Israel to bring about prophetic fulfillment If God is dependent upon the evil actions of men
37:02: That are not a part of his decree because remember the whole point of the provisionless perspective is Yes, the
37:08: Assyrian actions are evil no God had nothing to do with bringing them about Nothing at all.
37:15: He just uses them when he happens to see them So where they come from they only come from the heart the evil heart of the
37:21: Assyrians Therefore they cannot be part of the decree and therefore God's actions in time and judging
37:27: Israel are dependent upon his being able to find somebody to use to judge Israel and So he cannot do this on upon a timetable he cannot accomplish things at a particular point in time
37:39: How else get I'd like to have an answer that How else could it be?
37:46: How else could it be? so Hmm.
37:55: Oh Okay, I'm sitting here going got quiet. All of a sudden. I don't I don't know what happened So I'll back it up here.
38:01: Did you have it off? Okay Yet he judges the
38:07: Assyrians for their sinful intentions God's action in his sovereignty is perfectly compatible with the responsible and culpable actions of sinful men amen in quote
38:20: Provisionists like myself would agree that God used the evil intentions of the Assyrians to bring judgment on Israel However, we do not believe that God quote sovereignly brought about those evil intentions
38:32: Thus our view does not bring God's holiness into question or create issues with the concept of divine culpability
38:40: Okay now You you say that God used the evil intentions of the
38:46: Assyrians? But he didn't just do so sovereignly. He did so because he's looking around and He wants to punish
38:55: Israel for its sin But he needs to find some way of doing it and He can only do it when mankind allows him to do it by having
39:06: Somebody like the Assyrians come along that he can then entice Into attacking
39:12: Israel because that's what he's gonna say later on So the punishment of Israel has to wait for the opportune time for God to find somebody to do it
39:24: That's what we're being told Yes, I know this this can this meet this utterly means prophecy cannot happen this is why open theists are the only consistent
39:37: Arminians and That is why I think if if the Baptist faith and message had not specifically made open theism a no -no for Southern Baptists, I Think that's exactly where Layton would be.
39:49: I really do it would fit much better But there he is
39:55: So thus our view does not bring God's holiness into question. Why does my view bring
40:01: God's holiness into question? Well because you're saying that God decreed evil actions
40:08: Yes, I that's exactly what Acts chapter 4 says. That's that's a straight -up statement.
40:15: No question about it But that does not mean that his holiness is in question because he does not put a gun behind someone who's innocent and say do bad things and It's only by insisting
40:34: Upon well, it has to be one way or the other God has to operate only in the strictures that I can understand as a temporal being therefore there cannot be
40:43: Compatibilism there cannot be the reality of the divine decree and human responsibility at the same time because it it's too big
40:51: For the parameters I will allow God to exist in that's the provisionless argument That God's too big too complicated for me.
40:58: Therefore. He must not exist Or create issues the concept of divine culpability.
41:04: Well, you have issues the divine culpability again, if you affirm which
41:09: I don't think you want to but you have to affirm that God knew exactly what the result of All of his creation was going to be you've got the exact same issues.
41:18: It's even worse Because God knew that all this evil is going to exist. He had no purpose for it and had no control over it none whatsoever
41:27: There's some divine culpability for you But one of you may say
41:32: Surely Calvinists do not really teach that God sovereignly brings about every evil intention every do they ever
41:40: God? Predetermined every tiny detail in the universe Such as dust particles in the air and then
41:48: I should add here including all our besetting sins Yes in contrast
41:54: Provisionism teaches that God allows or permits creation to act freely as Opposed to being causally determined by a divine all -encompassing
42:04: Meticulous decree so God has no decree But he has perfect knowledge of what takes place
42:11: So since there's no decree that what takes place takes place What does take place arises out of the creation?
42:18: unguided by God unguided by God now by the way
42:24: Since we're into making connections with ancient religions
42:29: Could I point out that that actually sounds to me much more like the Gnostic understanding?
42:35: Where God emanates things and there's reactions from God, but there's no divine decree
42:41: But hey, that's easy to do, isn't it? Yeah, okay, so There is no again
42:50: No logical way that I've ever heard To say yes, God has exhaustive knowledge of all future events
42:58: But there is no divine decree. There's no way around the resultant idea that actions arise in of themselves
43:09: They are purposeless But God brought it about when he created because he knew that was going to before he created
43:16: He knew that was going to be the end result. You see the open theist goes. Oh, no, he didn't and So they can get around the culpability part the person who tries to hold on to yes, he did
43:28: Know exactly what the result was going to be Is left going so why should we glorify him for how it turned out because he's not the one that directed it there
43:39: Well, he nudged it Every nudging involves the violation of free will right?
43:45: well, you know and At times God being all -knowing can and will use
43:52: Men's evil intentions to bring about his good purposes and plans Listen, doesn't that sound wonderful, especially with the
44:01: House out of heart back there Sounds so nice, you know, yeah, it's a sort of electric electric piano typing sounds great, doesn't it?
44:11: See what's on the screen Let's think about it, let's think about what it means and at times
44:19: Not of his choosing Being all -knowing passively so can and will when he has to Use men's evil intentions to bring about his good purposes and plans
44:35: Which are now made dependent upon what is provided to him to work with by the actions of free men
44:43: That's the rest of it. That doesn't get expressed He can't have purposes and plans in of himself.
44:51: Oh No, he can't How could he? How could it have been God's eternal purpose?
44:58: To judge this generation of Israel that was judged by the Assyrians How could he do that Because he's dependent upon the evil intentions the
45:09: Assyrians which do not arise from a divine decree Now I would argue that means he could not have known them anyways
45:15: But that's another issue The point is this position
45:21: Limits God's purposes and plan his good purposes and plans to what is provided to him by the creature
45:32: It's a huge cost for this stuff. Man -centered theology costs us Not only a sovereign
45:39: God but a coherent God God's wrath is often depicted in Scripture as God's permitting the natural consequences of moral evil
45:48: Which is not a problem in a worldview where the moral evil is brought to pass by someone other than God Now did you catch that?
45:55: Brought to pass by someone other than God. So again The argument being we're not going to accept what
46:02: Reformed theology teaches and by the way None of this has anything to do with Manichaeism at all It's just so just see we'll be documenting a little bit more of that here in a moment
46:09: But what this demands is that you cannot have primary primary and secondary causes
46:18: Which is what Isaiah 10 is all about You have primary and secondary causes in the
46:26: Assyrians coming against Israel and In the intention of the one holiness and goodness in the intention of the other sin
46:35: Judgment is brought about that's the whole point But when you a priori say that isn't possible then you've got to turn the whole story around you got to turn it on its head
46:46: So instead of God acting sovereignly wielding the axe of Isaiah 10 now
46:51: You've got the provisionist where the axe is wielding God upside down Can sound real good, especially it's got music behind it.
47:04: Oh, he's doing he's He's doing the voice I used to use when I would when
47:09: I would do a program called Candlelight and silver between 6 and 7 p .m. On KWAO radio
47:15: FM 106 .3 the home of the great entertainers in Sun City, Arizona Or during the dinner hour,
47:21: I would play Montevani and Percy Faith beautiful music by which you could dine.
47:27: Yes, I can do that, too And then after 10 p .m. I would always use my better announcer voice so that you would trust what
47:34: I was saying And it would also help you to go to sleep That's gonna that's gonna get memed
47:47: Yes, Layton, I can do it too. I'm a trained professional Okay God's wrath can literally be described as God's separating himself from us
48:00: So that we experience the natural consequences of our own free moral actions
48:06: Really? Okay There are times when the natural consequences of our sin are an expression of God's wrath
48:19: Most of the plagues were not that Most of the plagues were not that so there are times when
48:28: God's wrath is very much present and It's very much the expression of his just anger
48:36: So like, you know hailstones and stuff like that that's generally a good example where it's not just God separating himself from us
48:44: That is precisely what we see happening in Isaiah chapter 10, ah, so Are you hearing this
48:54: Isaiah 10 15 God is wielding the axe
49:01: But they didn't read Isaiah 10 15 they stopped before Isaiah 10 15 Why because the way around it to decalvinize it that is twisted into something it never ever said
49:13: The way around that is to make the Assyrians the source and God is simply using what the
49:22: Assyrians provide to him. See how this works. It sounds great It's the exact opposite of what
49:28: Isaiah was communicating. It's completely false, but it sounds great and If you want to believe it
49:35: You'll find a way to believe it instead of protecting Israel from Assyria, which he promised to do if they remained obedient God removes his hand of protection and Permits the
49:47: Assyrians to follow their own libertarian Lee free will so that axe swung itself
49:57: It was permitted to swing itself. Yeah, it was permitted
50:03: Because it wanted to I mean that axe had been trying to go for that tree for a long time and it was permitted
50:11: Freely because it has libertarian Lee free will That's what Isaiah is about.
50:18: I don't I can't make this stuff up folks I just I just reported to you God does not cause or bring about the evil intentions of the
50:26: Assyrians So he is perfectly could he have suppressed
50:36: The evil intentions the Assyrians I Mean, it's their libertarian Lee free will to have evil intentions
50:43: So could God have kept them from doing that because that's what he'd have to be doing To fulfill his promise to keep
50:50: Israel safe from its enemies, right? So he has to be able to do that, right? To judge them for their rebellious action
51:00: Despite the fact that God used their rebellion to accomplish divine judgment on Israel for their own disobedience
51:09: The fact that God may have incited the already rebellious Assyrians to consider the already rebellious
51:15: Israelites to be their next victims. Did you catch that? Did you catch that?
51:21: the fact that God may have incited that's as close as you can get to wielding the axe and Having a purpose is to incite the already rebellious
51:35: Assyrians. I Don't remember. Did I miss incite? I I didn't
51:41: I I'll have to go back and check the Hebrew on that. I don't I don't remember that part.
51:46: Yes, sir Did you notice that he capitalizes his shoehorn words? Mm -hmm.
51:52: I thought that's really interesting talk about a tell. Oh That word in there, yeah,
52:00: I'm capitalizing it to tell you I put that word Yeah, so God may have incited the already rebellious
52:11: Assyrians We don't you know substantiate that anywhere but he may have
52:18: It's possible Does not negate the Israelite and Assyrian peoples individual responsibility in becoming rebellious to begin with Yeah, you know part of the question is why would both of them be rebellious?
52:33: Maybe it has something to do with their relationship to Adam Hmm. Oh can't have that Yeah Can't have that.
52:40: But again, just think just think folks all of this to say That God's judgment of Israel in Isaiah chapter 10 in that particular historical incident
52:55: Was completely dependent upon the provision of the opportunity made by the
53:00: Assyrians and the Israelites God could not have done it at that time any other way All came from them all came from them a lot of ramifications for that Would Calvinist have us believe that God quote sovereignly brought about the disobedience of the
53:17: Israelites and the Assyrians? So as to use the Assyrians disobedient actions to judge the
53:22: Israelites disobedient actions Much better would be would
53:28: Calvinist have us believe that apart from God's grace mankind Will live in constant rebellion
53:36: Yeah God doesn't have to create rebellion
53:44: God does have to create obedience and submission because of the fall
53:50: Because in Christianity there is a really a fall not like in Manichaeism and all this that there's no fall there, but there is a fall in Christianity and the result impacts everyone and God is regularly suppressing man's evil so as to accomplish his own purpose and his decree
54:12: And there is no such thing as libertarianly free will except for God What would be the point in that?
54:19: We do affirm that God may use the free rebellious actions of some
54:24: To bring about the discipline or judgment of others which means he cannot discipline or judge others unless given the opportunity by the rebellion of autonomous libertarian
54:37: Lee free creatures right and I'm not trying to make this up.
54:43: I'm right That seemed really what you're saying God's just doing the best he can with what he's given
54:50: All right, just as long as everybody knows what's being said But we vehemently reject the notion that our thrice
54:58: Holy God Brings about the rebellion of morally sinful creatures
55:04: Even though he created knowing it was gonna happen He has no purpose in it and it actually arises from something outside of himself
55:14: Just Lay all of it outside according to James chapter 1
55:19: He does not even tempt men to do evil much less sovereignly and unchangeably determined that they will
55:24: Is that what James was talking about? Or is he talking to human beings about blaming
55:31: God for their own following of their own tension? They'd be like the Assyrian king Blaming God that he was arrogant in thinking that he was the one that submitted all those cities
55:42: Well, that's your fault. No God does not accept That kind of an argument because God does not reveal to us what his purposes are
55:50: The creature cannot make appeal to knowledge. That was not his God the judge knows the hearts and that's the basis upon which he judges so that's not even what
56:01: James is talking about James is taught that James does talk about the the father of lights and all good gifts and everything else, but he's not giving a
56:10: Discussion of Assyria Compatibilism or anything else? He is talking on a very practical level to people who are trying to excuse their sin by blaming it on something other than their own lusts first John 2 16 teaches us for all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and The boastful pride of life is not from the father
56:35: But is from the world. Well, there's a again a text It's not talking about the application being made unless you're trying to say that the world is
56:46: Well, I hey, you know we could fit this into the Manichean Viewpoint if you'd like to it since it seems to be all the rage today
56:52: If we identified the world as the world of darkness and the father is the father of light
56:58: Then I suppose we could somehow try to cram that in there if we wanted to but the reality is the world here is the world in Opposition to God and he's talking to Christians as to how
57:09: Christians are to live That's why he says anyone who loves the world love the father does not dwell in him. So world for John Hmm, this is cosmos and it evidently isn't the the same world as John 3 16, is it?
57:23: It's not every single human being. In fact, it's not human beings at all. Really It is that world system that stands in opposition to God that is in rebellion against God that is fallen
57:36: That's what it's talking about It's not saying God didn't know any of this. In fact,
57:41: I think that's coming up Let's see if that's that might be the next one. It seems to be right my recollection Calvinism claims all things brought about by God's sovereign meticulous decree
57:52: But the scripture says that pride and lust are not from the father but from the world
57:58: From the website of the late R .C. Sproul a prominent Calvinistic apologist Ling in their ministries writes
58:05: God has planned or decreed all things and thus they surely take place
58:11: As he has planned decreed or ordained them in quote because they have filled this place with the blood of innocence and Have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal Which I did not command or decree nor did it come into my mind
58:28: So Calvin now there is no There's no Exegesis offered there, but let me roll it back here
58:38: Jeremiah chapter 19. This is one of the primary open theist proof texts That's why
58:44: I think I really think if the Baptist faith and message in that That's relating would be because that's where he wants to be because he keeps using stuff like this so Which I did not command or decree nor did it come into my mind?
58:57: So if you believe God has exhausted knowledge of future events, this obviously isn't talking about that.
59:02: Is it? That's what the open theist. They say it did not come into his mind
59:08: He did not know that there would be the offerings on the high places or the offerings to Baal or Moloch or whatever the particular incidents might be
59:18: When God created he didn't know I was gonna happen because Layton flowers works for a southern Baptist entity.
59:23: He can't say that So what does he got to do? Yes, he knew But That actually
59:33: Arises from something outside of God There is a secondary source for the existence of these things outside of God and it's the libertarian free will of man and so the command or decree is the eternal decree
59:53: Well the problem with that is Command that's his law. God did not tell the people of Israel.
01:00:01: He did not contain in his law Commandments or decrees to offer their children sacrifice.
01:00:06: That's all it's saying When it says it did not come into my mind That's not saying God never thought about it never knew it was gonna happen
01:00:14: What he's saying is this type of evil is so far Removed from me and so far removed from my law that it is disgusting and yet these people are claiming religious authority for me to do it
01:00:27: That's the consistent interpretation. That's the one that actually allows all of the scriptures to stand together That's not really common to for people to do that much anymore.
01:00:36: But that's that's what it is. So Why use open theist proof text?
01:00:41: I wonder You can decide for yourself command or decree Nor did it come into my mind.
01:00:47: So Calvinism says God decreed all things But God says through the
01:00:53: Prophet Jeremiah. I did not command or decree that Nor did it enter into my mind?
01:00:59: Okay, absolutely false argument very shallow This is common type of stuff
01:01:06: You look at the context you realize what it's actually talking about You can see the mixture of categories this type of common error we've been dealing with this for years, but this was only produced
01:01:17: I think last week or Within the past couple of days. I could go back and look at the at the date
01:01:23: Demonstrating that God knows and uses evil intentions of men does not prove divine determinism
01:01:30: Or what some call compatibilism It only demonstrates his omniscience and his sovereign ability to bring about his purposes through the free choices of creatures and what is the ultimate authority for the provisionless the free choices of creatures and I have people who get angry at me because I say man centeredness versus God centeredness
01:01:55: It's right on the screen right in front of you. We just walked through it played it allowed you to see for yourself
01:02:01: Lodgy to see for yourself So there you go. Uh, listen to two while putting up something to protect the
01:02:09: Eastern wall of my house from the scorching Phoenix Sun which is already scorching and it's going to be scorching into October.
01:02:18: Yay Did I stumble on and oh you mean the the?
01:02:26: Sound in the background the music in the background Well, as I said, I we could find somebody to do that for us We'd find someone that could do the you know, the little piano thing just Yeah, wind chimes would be nice something, you know something that makes it sound better when you're
01:02:42: Okay, I shouldn't say it. Okay all right now
01:02:48: I promised to continue on page 36 of Ken Wilson's dissertation, but but Something came in the mail.
01:02:58: I Got something in the mail. I There's still a couple things yet to come but this finally came um,
01:03:07: I You obviously dealing with something that someone has written who spent more than a year with the library at Oxford at one's fingertips
01:03:26: You can't go quite as fast you can't look things up as quickly I think we've done a pretty good job so far
01:03:31: I Was reading on page 284 of the dissertation it's in the conclusion
01:03:39: The following Paragraph now just give you context in the conclusion
01:03:49: Ken Wilson really goes after Augustine just Really Seeks to destroy his credibility attack him on every level on every every possible level.
01:04:01: It really does and In that process
01:04:09: You have this paragraph quote While denying that Donatus and Ariens were ever
01:04:16: Christians except technically due to their baptisms Augustine never denies this to Manichaeans Designating himself as a
01:04:28: Christianus Catholicus Catholic Christian listen from the implied
01:04:35: Christianus Manichaeanus or Stated pseudo
01:04:42: Christianus three references are giving
01:04:48: Three references are given we're gonna look at all three of them in just a moment Continues this could explain why
01:04:57: Porphyry could consider Christians the same as Manichaeans and how Brown can identify Manichaeans as radical
01:05:04: Christians and Even self -designated true Christians with Faustus exemplifying reformed
01:05:11: Christianity For Augustine quote now here is this is why I ordered this book for Augustine comma quote
01:05:22: To become a manichae was to depart little if at all from being a Christian end quote
01:05:30: Then a footnote now that struck me before I even looked up the references to Augustine's works for Augustine Quote to become a manichae was to depart little if at all from being a
01:05:49: Christian end quote Now the way that is written Is Communicating that that's
01:05:56: Augustine's understanding that Augustine Either said or Intimated or taught to become a manichae was to depart little if at all from being a
01:06:09: Christian now I've read enough of Augustine to know that simply wasn't true, but it serves
01:06:16: Wilson's purpose at this point so the reference
01:06:23: Was to John O'Meara the young Augustine introduction to the confessions of st.
01:06:29: Augustine So I don't know about two weeks or so ago when I was working on this What I do is
01:06:35: I run into these I sort of look at them. How important is it and Then when it's like, yeah,
01:06:42: I really want to check this out. Then I See if it's purchasable. I obviously look for it online
01:06:49: I look at Google Books see if I can find the quotes. There's there's various ways of trying to track stuff down that earlier editions are being cited or longer available and Stuff like that.
01:07:00: We're helping to keep a few used bookstores going during the depression
01:07:08: But if I decide that yeah, it's something I want then I will
01:07:15: Send the link to rich and Ten days later two weeks later, whatever there it is.
01:07:23: There it is so Did Augustine say to become a mannequin was to depart little of it all from being a
01:07:32: Christian? Or is that what somebody else said man Augustine was himself saying?
01:07:39: this I think is one of the more insightful revelations as to how Ken Wilson utilizes sources and It substantiates what
01:07:49: I've been saying all along. That's why
01:07:54: I wanted to start with that today Because it just came in the mail story time with uncle
01:08:02: Jimmy What we have in O'Meara's work is a
01:08:12: Description of the Mannequin religion
01:08:20: And the fall not of mankind
01:08:28: But the creation and Things like that and Then you have the description this was very interesting of the elect and the hearers now many
01:08:43: Organized his religion very very specifically interestingly enough. You have the leader
01:08:51: You have 12 You have 72 then you have 365 or was it 360 anyway?
01:09:00: So you have a real hierarchical organized system which helped the religion to survive as long as it did in light of The fact that it obviously had a different manifestation the
01:09:16: East and it did in the West because you know You've got Buddha and one side and Jesus and the other side and things like that But also do the fact that its leaders could not procreate and That's never been good for any religion for long -term existence just just hasn't
01:09:35: So Augustine Became a hearer or an auditor.
01:09:44: He was not one of the elect now, of course the whole use of the terminology of the elect in Manichaeism Something that's brought up by certain people for some strange reason
01:09:59: But the reality is in Manichaeism, there is no divine decree none
01:10:06: So the selection of the elect is Human It is of the will
01:10:20: Within the parameters of a mechanistic determinism that is based upon the
01:10:25: Manichaean mythology there are different kinds of men and That has to do with the evil
01:10:38: Material body trapping the light amount of light Stuff like that has nothing.
01:10:44: There's no connection to Unconditional election or anything like that as far as God's purposes self -revelation none that kind of stuff.
01:10:53: It's it's wild and wacky so what O'Meara is doing is He's giving background to the
01:11:00: Confessions, so he's giving background to Augustine's Introduction to Manichaeism and so he's he's describing
01:11:09: Manichaeism, so remember Augustine's never one of the elect as I mentioned
01:11:16: Tuesday I think in the program Monday or Tuesday The Manichaean elect
01:11:25: Could not engage in Sexuality they could not engage in violence.
01:11:32: They could not eat vast majority of human foods Their food had to be provided to them by the auditors by the hearers and had to be prepared in a very special way
01:11:44: So that their purified bodies became the redemptive mechanism that frees the light
01:11:50: From the vegetables and plants that are feed fed to them by the hearers
01:11:56: That light is then released Milky Way moon Sun Kingdom of light.
01:12:03: Okay. This is this is what redemption is is Releasing of the light particles.
01:12:08: Remember the primeval man first stage of the battle when the kingdom of darkness attacks kingdom of light Primeval man is captured.
01:12:16: He allows some of his light substance to be captured and then is brought back To the realm of light and now the whole rest of is getting the rest of his light back
01:12:30: So Let me read a little bit from John O'Meara here
01:12:37: Manichaean eschatology. Hey, here we go It took something like this to get me to discuss eschatology
01:12:45: Manichaean eschatology Centers around the destiny and duties of three classes of men the Manichaean elect
01:12:52: Manichaean hearers or auditors or aspirants and the wicked
01:13:00: Hey, I thought of something in Jehovah's Witness eschatology. You have the hundred and forty four thousand.
01:13:06: You have the great crowd. You got everybody else No, there's no connection, but it is interesting
01:13:14: The elect who can be men women or even children are few in number Practice all the obligations of Manichaeism as perfectly as possible and are destined to at death to enter the kingdom of God That is their light is released back into the kingdom of light
01:13:29: They are enrolled as elect when they receive the Manichaean baptism and live henceforth a life of poverty and asceticism
01:13:37: There is no selecting of them by the divine will of The kingdom of light a
01:13:47: Member of the elect observes with the greatest scrupulosity the three seals which were mouth
01:13:54: Hands and bosom I think He would die sooner than eat even a fish
01:14:01: He could do no violence to anything and would rather starve than pluck an apple He lives the life of the most absolute chastity the pallor of his face is an indication of the sanctity of his life
01:14:13: When he eats fruit, it must be supplied to him by others And then he thinks only releasing from the fruit the divine substance within it the light
01:14:21: He is bound in fact to eat every particle of such food as it is brought to him and allow none of it to perish
01:14:27: And while he eats he prays and hymns the Lord So you had to eat everything even if you didn't like it because it had been prepared so that you could release the light by digesting it
01:14:37: So that gives new meaning to finish your plate Jimmy My my parents hadn't didn't come up with that one.
01:14:45: I remember my parents when there's children's there's children starving in Africa That was that was what they never did that to you
01:14:54: You got China. Okay. All right. Well, I Well, there were but it didn't have anything to do with what you were doing, but they didn't care
01:15:02: They still put the guilt trip on me Some of the elect do more than sanctify themselves They attempt the salvation of their neighbors some become deacons others priests
01:15:11: Over these are 72 bishops and over these again 12 masters again. Finally a representative of many presides over all it is evident that the mere statement of the requirements the perfect maniche that most manichees were never full manichees and We're in fact merely aspirants.
01:15:27: These were called the auditors or hearers. That's what Augustine was for nine years
01:15:33: The auditors were unwilling at yet at any rate to follow the life perfectly hence their name
01:15:39: For not the hearers of the law are just before God But the doers the law shall be justified Romans 2 13 talk about having absolutely nothing to do with the original context
01:15:50: Nevertheless, they do observe certain obligations. They profess the faith and pray the Father Son Holy Ghost None of which means the same thing as in Christianity They pay a special devotion to the
01:16:00: Sun and Moon They take part in all the religious exercises of their church and obey the ordinary precepts of the gospel their gospel as For the rest they do what little they can to imitate the elect
01:16:10: They do not they do not observe the seal of the mouth for they eat meat and drink wine All the same they do fast severely from time to time
01:16:18: They do not observe the seal of the hand for they practice as farmers take part in public life and aspire to honors
01:16:25: Some of them are even butchers Here however, they turn their imperfections to good account for they procure food and other things for the elect whose lot without them would indeed be heroic
01:16:36: Nor do they observe the seal of the bosom for they marry they try however to limit the evil effects that result from doing these things
01:16:44: They have one serious inescapable obligation never to be the direct instrument of giving food to anyone not of their faith
01:16:51: I didn't know about that till this To do so is to deliver the divine substance the light in the food into the hands of devils
01:17:03: If a starving man appeals to them, they can give him money but not food On the other hand, they do well to bring food to the elect who pray for them when they die
01:17:15: The auditors the hearers do not go directly the kingdom of light They acquire new bodies in the cycle of existence if they have lived well, according to their state
01:17:24: They will merit to become members of the elect notice how you become part of the elect you merit it
01:17:31: You merit it. How did how did Augustine get? election to life and that well
01:17:38: They will merit to become members of the elect in their new life. And so we'll enjoy release in due course
01:17:45: If they have lived badly They'll become a plant or tree and have the further disadvantage of being able to check this out
01:17:54: Never even thought about this If they have lived badly
01:18:00: They'll become a plant or tree and have the further disadvantage of being able to hear the
01:18:07: Word of God Without being able to do anything about it So that potted plant in your church
01:18:15: Might have been a former hearer that's come back and now is hearing the Word of God But can't do anything about it that poor plant.
01:18:25: Oh All right an elect however by eating the plant may free them
01:18:32: So you can always hope that if you come back as a plant you'll get eaten by one of the elect But if they've been so bad as to deserve to become an animal
01:18:40: Then they have little hope of salvation for no elect may eat of an animal The wicked are not all equally culpable.
01:18:47: This is a third group Some are in ignorance others by imprudent imprudence others still through malice
01:18:54: The first only have only to be shown their mistake and they will reform be forgiven The second group are more culpable
01:18:59: But even they are forgiven for the Manichaeus follow Christ and struck injunction to forgive him or repents even 70 times 7 the third group are lost forever
01:19:09: All mankind will appear for the last judgment when those who belong to the devil will be told to depart to him as the king
01:19:14: Of darkness that judgment will take place only when all those who dedicate themselves to God have entered the kingdom of light
01:19:20: Then there will be an immense conflagration Whatever divine substance remains will be collected in the realm of light and the two kingdoms of good and evil will as in the beginning
01:19:28: Be separate and apart once more so back to the initial state
01:19:34: All the light in one place all the darkness in another place. Could it start all over again? I don't know
01:19:41: Here's the last paragraph Here's where the quote came from from the foregoing
01:19:49: It is possible to see how in spite of the enormous difference in the doctrines which they professed
01:19:56: So what was this? This was the description of their lifestyles? Okay, the lifestyles of the elect sort of looked a little bit like Monks and things like that.
01:20:09: No marriage Strict dieting things like that, but even the hearers had certain rules.
01:20:15: They had to live by Okay, so from the foregoing it is possible see how in spite of the enormous difference in the doctrines which they professed
01:20:24: Manichees who were content to remain auditors that is hearers could seem to differ a little in practice from ordinary
01:20:31: Christians In a sense it might seem that to become a manichae was to depart little if at all from being a
01:20:39: Christian Paragraph closed to catch that there is the quote
01:20:49: That's the reference Let me let you okay. Here was here's
01:20:54: Wilson's use for Augustine comma quote to become a manichae was to depart little if at all from being a
01:21:02: Christian reference this book this page Actual reference what was really said
01:21:12: From the foregoing it is possible to see how in spite of the enormous difference in the doctrines which they professed
01:21:18: Manichees who were content to remain auditors Could seem to differ little in practice from ordinary
01:21:23: Christians in a sense It might seem that become a manichae was to depart little if at all from being a
01:21:29: Christian. That's indefensible
01:21:39: That is indefensible completely and totally Indefensible.
01:21:46: I understand that. Dr. Wilson has been doing responses haven't looked at a .m. Yet. I think it's a distraction from digging this stuff out
01:21:54: But that's indefensible that's not what this says
01:22:01: Neither are any of the references that were given so Before that misuse it says for Augustine had nothing to do with Augustine It was not a quotation of Gus's our reference to Augustine at all had nothing to do with the subject at all
01:22:18: Total misuse of a citation now how many let me ask one question of every one of you
01:22:25: Provisionalists out there that have been touting this dissertation is to be all and end all of all things How many of you look that reference up?
01:22:35: Not a one of you. Did you? Not a one of you, of course not You just believe it.
01:22:44: How about the rest of them? How about the beginning of the paragraph? While denying that Donatus and Arius were ever
01:22:51: Christian Aryans were ever Christians Except technically do their baptism Augusta never denies this to Manichaeans Designating himself as a
01:23:02: Christianus Catholicus From the implied Christianus Manichaeanus or stated
01:23:10: Pseudo Christianus Now I'm willing to bet that Augusta never ever ever implied or said
01:23:24: Christianus Manichaeanus Because he didn't say it in any of the references that were given
01:23:30: How do I know that because I looked them up? First reference given the use of the creed
01:23:39: Here is the quote. I have a I'm not sure how long
01:23:46: I'll be able to go here I have a package sitting on my front porch right now. The wife's not home It's perishable and it's gonna be a pile of goo by the time
01:23:53: I get home. It's 105 degrees outside. It's already done. But anyway It is then my purpose to prove to you if I can this is
01:24:03: Augustan That the Manichaeans profanely and rashly Invade against those who following the authority of the
01:24:10: Catholic faith before that they are able to gaze upon that truth With the pure mind beholds are by believing for armed and prepared for God who is who is about to give them light
01:24:21: For you know honoratus. He's writing to someone who has gotten involved Manichaeism That for no other reason we fell in with such men we because he was a
01:24:31: Manichaean Then because they used to say that apart from all terror of authority by pure and simple reason
01:24:37: They would lead us within to God and set free from all error those who are willing to be their hearers
01:24:43: So in other words, that's in the saying they really applied They that what appealed to me was their appeal to reason and that they would not appeal to authority
01:24:54: For What else constrained me during nearly nine years Spurning the religion which had been set in me from my from a child by my parents because he was raised as a
01:25:04: Christian To be a follower and diligent hearer of those men save that They said that that we are alarmed by superstition and are commanded to have faith before reason
01:25:16: But that they urge no one to have faith without having first discussed and made clear the truth who would not be enticed by such promises, especially the mind of a young man desirous of the truth and Further a proud and talkative mind by discussions of certain learned men in the school
01:25:33: Such as they then found me Disdainful forsooth as of old wives tables and desirous to grasp and drink in what they promised the open and pure truth
01:25:44: But what reason on the other hand recalled me not to be altogether joined to them So that I continued in that in that rank which they call hearers
01:25:52: So that I resigned not the hope and business of this world Save that I noticed that they also are rather eloquent and full in refutation of others
01:26:00: Then abide firm and sure in proof of what is their own but of myself, what shall
01:26:06: I say who was already a Catholicos Christianos a
01:26:12: Catholic Christian Treats which now after very long thirst
01:26:18: I almost exhausted and dry have returned to with all Greediness and with deeper weeping and groaning have shaken together and wrung them out more deeply
01:26:28: That so there might flow that which might be enough to refresh me Affected as I was and to bring back hope of life and safety.
01:26:36: What then shall I say of myself? You not yet a Christian who through encouragement from me
01:26:42: Execrating them greatly as you did were hardly led to believe that you ought to listen to them and make trial of them
01:26:48: By what else I pray you were you delighted call to mind? I entreat you saved by a certain grand presumptive presumption and promise of reasons
01:26:55: But because they disputed long and much with very great copiousness and vehemence concerning the errors of Unlearned men a thing which
01:27:04: I learned too late at length to be most easy for any moderately educated man If even of their own they implanted in us anything
01:27:11: We thought that we were obliged to retain it in so much as there fell not in our way other things were into acquiesce
01:27:18: So they did in our case what crafty fowlers are want to do who set branches smeared with bird line besides water to deceive
01:27:25: Thirsty birds for they fill up and cover Anyhow, the other waters which are around or fright that fright them from fright them from them by alarming devices
01:27:35: That they may fall into their snares not through choice, but want there's the first reference
01:27:40: There's the only reference to Catholic Christian. There's nothing about Christian maniche there
01:27:46: Notice he said implied it's not implied anywhere All he's doing is saying this is what attracted me.
01:27:54: I had been raised in one. I Had been raised in an unlearned fashion.
01:28:00: I thought there were fables and stories They promised truth for nine years I listened
01:28:07: Then I learned otherwise That's the first reference nothing there about Saying that Manichaeans are
01:28:14: Christians nothing next reference Against the epistle of Manichaeus called fundamental
01:28:22: Quote, that's the reference given by Wilson on the other hand All must allow that you owe it to me in return to lay aside all
01:28:28: Arrogance on your part so that you may be the more disposed to gentleness and may not oppose me in a hostile spirit
01:28:34: To your own hurt that neither of us assert that he has found truth let us seek it as if it were unknown to us both for truth can be sought with zeal and you and Unanimity if by no rash presumption it is believed to have been already found and ascertained
01:28:48: But if I cannot induce by the way, I would disagree with Augusta at that point vehemently but if I cannot induce you to grant me this at least allow me to suppose myself a
01:28:56: Stranger now for the first time hearing you for the first time examining your doctrines I think my demand a just one but it must be laid down as an understood thing that I am
01:29:05: NOT to join you in your prayers or In holding conventacles or in taking the name of Manichaeus Unless you give me a clear explanation without any obscurity of all matters touching the salvation of the soul.
01:29:20: Is there anything there that would Substantiate the assertion of Manichean Christian to substantiate because what he's saying is
01:29:28: Augustin said the Aryans and Adonis weren't Christians, but he never said that the Manichaeus weren't
01:29:34: He implied that they were No implications so far, huh? Nope.
01:29:40: All right. He gave a third reference Here's the third. Here's the third one against Faustus one three. This is
01:29:48: Augustine's response to Faustus And this one actually argues against his point, so I'm not even sure why
01:29:55: I put it there You warn against semi Christians, which you say we are But we warn against pseudo
01:30:03: Christians, which we have shown you to be Because he said stated
01:30:10: Pseudo. Well, that's what he says stated Semi -christianity may be imperfect without being false
01:30:16: So then if the faith of those whom you try to mislead is imperfect Would it not be better to supply what is lacking than to rob them of what they have?
01:30:24: It was to imperfect Christians that the Apostle wrote joying and beholding your conversation and Deficiency in your faith in Christ References given the
01:30:33: Apostle had in view a spiritual structure as he says elsewhere You are God's building and in this structure.
01:30:38: He found both a reason for joy and a reason for exertion He rejoiced to see part already finished and the necessity of bringing the edifice to perfection called for exertion
01:30:46: Imperfect Christians as we are you pursue us with a desire to pervert what you call our
01:30:52: Semi -christianity by false doctrine Well, even those who are so deficient in faith as to be unable to reply to all your sophisms are
01:31:00: Least to know that they must not have anything at all to do with you You look for semi
01:31:06: Christians to deceive we wish to prove you pseudo Christians that Christians may learn something from your refutation and that the less advanced may learn to avoid you
01:31:17: Do you call us children the serpent? You have surely forgotten how often you have found fault with the prohibition in paradise and have praised the serpent for opening
01:31:28: Adam's eyes you have the better claim to the title which you give us the serpent owns you as well when you blame him as when you praise him and quote remember in Both in Gnosticism and in Manichaeism For taking the knowledge of food and even in fact it's
01:31:46: Jesus the splendor that convinces Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit so they can realize they have light trapped within them and Seek a way of salvation
01:31:55: So that's what he's referring to there at the end now once again to every one of you provisionists
01:32:05: Did you ever look these things up? Layton did you ever look these things up? Did you look at the references find out what the book was?
01:32:15: Look it up almost all this is in the in the shaft set
01:32:22: Sometimes you gotta go looking for something else But it's almost all there. I have it all in accordance personally
01:32:28: Do you ever look it up or just accept it? That entire paragraph
01:32:34: Should be struck and would have been struck by anyone actually reading this thing to any depth whatsoever in challenging it.
01:32:43: It's prejudicial It is misinterpreting and misusing three different references from Augustine and the citation from Amira is simply
01:32:56: Mark that out remove it Wrong a contextual completely prejudicial and in error.
01:33:07: How do you answer that? Here's the book how do you answer
01:33:12: I read you everything came before it in fact if you get well
01:33:18: What what came after it? Well, that was the end of a chapter The next chapter is
01:33:25: Augustine rolling as enrolling as an auditor So Nothing there
01:33:34: Nothing there. Well, that's all you found. No, it's not I've got pages this stuff
01:33:40: I'll get pages this stuff most of it You know, I've already written up some things we've gotten, you know
01:33:46: I read you what culture and philosophy in the age of Plotinus had said we've already put some of the stuff on the website But most of this it's just going to the original source in Augustine and it's like that's not what he said
01:33:59: Nope, that's nope. That doesn't substantiate either. Oh, wow. This is just a Incredibly prejudiced reading of Augustine.
01:34:06: It's like it's like somebody sat down with Augustine and said how can I prove Augustine was a bad guy?
01:34:14: and I've got a year to do it at Oxford. Well, just hope the readers believe what
01:34:25: I have to say because I went to Oxford Oh, yeah, no kidding that I do not yet understand though I would love to find out what department this is in if this was in philosophy.
01:34:38: I get it. I get it. I cannot cannot conceive of Someone in the history department letting this letting this go by.
01:34:47: I really really can't really can't well anyway, so I I Still haven't gotten to where we were yesterday
01:34:56: Or on Tuesday, sorry But hey, if something comes in the mail, you got to open the mail, right and I got something cool in the mail
01:35:08: Yeah, go ahead and read it for yourself. I Might scan that page. How I might scan that page.
01:35:14: We might post it with the what's that? How's that sound? Yeah, just to make sure so you can read it for yourself Read it for yourself.
01:35:22: Okay. Um tomorrow I would like to have some open phones And We have to go early
01:35:34: Because I'm doing iron sharpens iron tomorrow and that's one to three
01:35:43: Our time yeah, it's four to four to six Right, so since I'm gonna be on iron sharpens iron tomorrow, we've got to go early 11 to 10 30
01:36:00: We'll go. We'll start at a half hour How's that sound and we'll open the phones up at the beginning and then do a certain number of calls and then?
01:36:09: I'll continue on with what I've promised to do And again, you might say oh you just get into so many weeds, yeah, but there's so much stuff that we're learning
01:36:20: I mean, I just learned today. I did not know that the hearers could not give food To a non -mannequin but it makes sense because if there's light in the food then
01:36:32: How could you do that? Yeah, but you're just continuing its enslavement. So yeah makes sense
01:36:39: Learn something every day You might go but I'm not sure I really want to learn all that Just Think how educated you're gonna be edumacated by the time we get done.