How to Talk with Latter Day Saints

Apologia Utah

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I read your flyer here. Nice. I was just wondering what you have to say. So like what's on the flyer or?

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So yeah, I suppose so. I just wanted to hear where you're coming from.

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I wanted to hear what your beliefs are. Okay. So yeah, we're Bible -believing

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Christians. We're from Apologia. We're Reformed Baptists. We're here preaching the gospel to Mormons, not just Mormons, any unbeliever, but yeah, we're convinced by Scripture.

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I'm sure you read it in that tract that Mormonism has a different God, a different Christ, and a different gospel.

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God is really way, way better than what you might have been told in the Mormon church. The Mormon church.

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So it's not like, yeah, you're insane. Way better.

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Yeah. The gospel is way better. So we're not, we're not, we're here not to bash their faith, but to put it where it belongs in a true, true

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God, the true Christ. And so that's, that's, if that's what you mean, that's where we're coming from.

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Well, fair enough. I do want to let you know I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, as they call them. I was just curious about what you had to say.

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Tell me about your beliefs in God, if that's okay. Okay. Well, I'm sure if you haven't read the, it's in the tract already.

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We'd ask you, Jonathan, actually, before we get into that, what are your beliefs in God? What are you, being a member of the

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LDS Church? Well, I suppose over the years, I've come to believe in, to be a loving,

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I believe he's a father, a loving father in heaven. Someone who legitimately cares about me.

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Someone who legitimately is concerned about me. Someone who wants me to be happy.

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Wants to give me what I want. Someone who wants to show me the best way to live, so that I can be happy.

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And ultimately, turn to him, too, and partake in his graces. Partake in his glory.

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So, okay, so you're, as an LDS member, believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet. And with what you said, basically, of who you believe

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God to be, you're saying you came to that truth on the basis of experience.

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Experience is what brought you there? Correct, yeah. Okay. So, okay, so this is where we're going to start differing with you.

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The word of difference is where we agree that your God is different. Near the end of what you said, you said that you were partaking in the glory of God.

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But God, in Scripture, in the Bible, in Isaiah, he says, I give my glory to no man. To no one else will

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I give my glory. It says in Isaiah 43 .10, Before me there were no gods for him, neither shall there be after me.

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But Joseph Smith, the founder of this church, actually said, We have ought to believe that God has been

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God for all eternity. I will refute this idea, remove the veil, so that you may see that you must become gods yourselves.

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And so, instead of believing what God says in Isaiah 43 .10, Before me there were no gods for him, neither shall there be after me.

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Meaning, apart from God, there is no other God ever. Like, never will there be another one.

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Joseph Smith said, you know, you actually will become one. Before God, there were gods.

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That's against what God says, though. So, that's where we're differing, and that's where we're here teaching.

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Yeah, it's one of the things as well. The deeper that you look into it, things kind of pop up.

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But, you know, like we were saying before, it's not just that there's a difference. That God is better than what you've been told.

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So, like, everything that somebody could say about a real God, it's all true about just one being, just Him.

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And it's not, we don't have to really work through, well, how can it be that, like, the

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Father is God, and the Son says, in the beginning was the

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Word, that is, Jesus, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. That's kind of an issue, not really philosophy, because we can say, well, you know, there's a difference between the

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Father and the Son, but it's one being. And so, it's, God is just far, far greater, in a variety of different ways.

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It's something you can spend your entire life kind of dwelling on. It's something you can benefit from, but it's one aspect of how

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He's greater. So, what my brother is explaining, basically, it was just, amen, like,

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God is, according to His Word, triune in His very nature, Jesus is God incarnate.

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He's God in the flesh. And the church denies that. They believe that He's the brother of Lucifer, a creation.

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They believe that Jesus is created. But it says in John 1, verse 1, In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the

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Word was God. There's nothing that was made that was not made by Him.

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It says in verse 14, And the Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. But the church doesn't believe that.

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They believe that... Oh, well, it's probably from what he was saying. The Bible, and what the

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Word of God teaches, is the Father, the Son, they are one being. But they are three separate persons, three distinct persons.

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The church doesn't believe that Jesus is God. They believe that He's not the creator of all things. They believe

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He's the creation. They believe that you're His brother, Satan's His brother, the fallen angels are also brothers, which contradicts what the

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Bible says, what the Word of God says in John. The reality is that God is an entirely different being.

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An incomprehensibly higher order of being than what we know. So, you know, in the

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Mormon church, the idea is, well, if we progress a certain amount, we can become what God is, like the couplet that I'm sure you've heard before.

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And so, what God is is just immeasurably greater. And there are certain aspects that we have in common with Him.

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It says that we are greater than His image. What that means is that we are literally

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His offspring. What that means is that there are certain aspects of our character and our lives that reflect

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His greatness. So when Mo says something wise, did that ever happen to you?

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Did you get that last part? I didn't catch the line. I had to set up for your joke.

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It was a great joke. It was the funniest thing you ever heard. Well, gosh darn it. Yeah, obviously, you know, you've heard that man is made in the image of God.

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Right, right, right. Well, in the church, the idea is, at least as far as I understand it, is that there's a quasi -biological type of relationship like this is an indication for the same type of being that Jesus is.

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Is that... Like you're the son of Elohim, and then you're going to grow up to become an

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Elohim. Yeah, I mean... So, yeah, I mean, yeah, basically.

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But we can, we have the opportunity. Okay. Can I make a statement and ask a question?

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So I'm not... The statement is I'm not very well versed in really any scriptural approach.

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I'm not the most judicious member of the faith. But I do read some scripture.

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I do read scripture on occasion. I'm trying to do a grant.

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So when it comes to scriptural references, you're going to find me quite a grant. Okay. My question to you is, as members, you said you were at the

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Baptist sect. Is that correct? We're a formed Baptist. Yeah. Okay. What do you believe

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God wants for us? Okay, so if you're talking about a, like a general sense...

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A general sense, but also what you personally believe God wants for you. Well, that's an interesting way of putting that, because ultimately what we want is to have our beliefs conform as much as possible to what

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God has said in His Word. So, you know, if I say something that's completely, like, theologically ridiculous,

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I'd rather have you come up to me and literally slap me across the face and say, dude,

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Ephesians 3, whatever, says something else. Yeah. But ultimately, the purpose for God creating all of humanity is to glorify

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Himself. There you go. And what I'm concerned about when I say that, though, is that you and I might not have quite the same definition of what glorify means.

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Well, we do have that phrase in our faith, guys. Okay, so, yeah. I love the way you put it.

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Especially when you edit. All things. Anyway, so what we're saying is, basically, if you're talking about my own subjective, relative, own personal belief of God, that doesn't matter when

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God says something different. So if God says this about Himself, that before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Me, a creature who was made a servant, ought to worship the living God. I'm not supposed to.

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What I'm not supposed to be doing is saying to God, or before men, oh no,

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I'll become just like Him. Just right after He just said, no, before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me.

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I'm lying, and I'm going against what God says. So if you're talking about, what do we personally believe about God, primarily, or generally, we believe that God has made humans, made man to glorify

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Himself, for us to enjoy Him forever. Not to give us what we want, especially because we're born sinners, according to Ephesians 2.

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We are dead in our trespasses and sins. Therefore, we all recognize that there's a lot of things that we might want that are not good.

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Inherently sinful, right. And so like, what God wants, also primarily, is that men repent and believe the gospel.

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That glorifies Him. Yeah. When we talk about God being glorified, it's not about like the progressive or anything like that.

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It's that His aspects, and His character, and His attributes would be made known and that people would be praised for those things.

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And so, for me, what that comes down to a lot is trying to lift bets, partly because of the fact that He has raised me from the dead spiritually.

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We don't start out in a position where we are neutral towards God. The Bible says that we are enmity with Him.

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It just means that in our nature, we're enemies of God. There's something about God's nature that we hate.

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We're allergic to Him in a sense. I think that's His sovereignty.

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That's His rulership over us. It's fine for us to say God is holy, but when God says, oh, and I'm holy, and also, you are being commanded to be holy as well, that's when we start saying, you know, maybe not.

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You had stated that, you can't remember the exact word, but you had stated that we are to glorify

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God and enjoy Him forever. And enjoy Him forever. So, how do you believe that both of you believe we are to enjoy

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Him forever? How does that work? How do we get to that point? What does enjoying mean?

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So, is it something that we start doing right here and now as soon as we're saved through Jesus Christ?

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Is it something that we die after our death, we go on to do forever, for all time?

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If you could explain that to me. Okay, so yeah, what basically the Bible says is once a man who puts his faith and returns from his wicked ways, trusting in the

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Lord Jesus Christ who died on the cross, taking upon the wrath of God, sinners, trusting in Him, the

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Bible actually says there are made new creatures in Christ, for by grace are you saved through faith, by grace through faith, not by works, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.

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So, So, for good works, the

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Church would say, in the Book of Mormon, Moroni chapter 10 verse 32, it actually says, after denying all ungodliness, loving the

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Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength, then is grace sufficient for you?

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So what the Church is actually doing, and I'm trying to put it here because you're an LDS and we're Christians, the Church actually believes that it's faith plus works, it's faith and grace, but the

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Bible goes against that. The Bible says that good works are a fruit of my salvation, but they're not the root of my salvation.

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It's not what saves me, inherently. What saves me is the good works, not of me, but of Christ.

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Those are the only works that send me to Heaven. The only works that could justify me, the only thing that I could send before God and be justified and have the opportunity to enjoy

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Him is the resurrection and death and burial of Christ. But if you're talking about enjoyment in terms of actions and good works, we enjoy

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God by obeying Him, obeying His commands, doing His work, preaching the Gospel, eating and drinking to the glory of God, as Paul says in 1

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Corinthians 10, 31. Whether you eat or you drink, do all to the glory of God. So if you're talking about enjoying and glorifying

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God forever, we're obeying His word, we're repenting of sin and trusting and doing more good works that will glorify

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Him and not ourselves. But this is out of love for God and not a need of being saved, but because we are saved.

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And so that's what we would say. Let's not check out a list or doing something because we think we can gain a better position with God or if I do these things,

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God will like me better, but if I don't do these things, well then maybe the Holy Spirit will leave me behind or maybe there will be some kind of problem in between me and God.

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You know, and I I get this because I sometimes start thinking that way first and then again, well

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I've been really falling away doing a lot of stuff that I'm not supposed to do and I remind myself of a lot of the stuff that Mo just said you know, my salvation is based off of my performance.

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If it was, I would either be permanently emotionally crushed or just neurotic like you wouldn't believe.

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Every single decision would be is this the sin that cost me everything?

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You know, is this it? Is this the last one? But the reality is that God having from all eternity known exactly everything that was going to happen including this conversation right here

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He has known that I was going to be the sinner that I am and from all eternity past,

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He has chosen not just to love me out of disaffection, but to love me in this way.

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The Bible says that Christ loved us in such a way that while we were still sinners

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Christ died for us. And then He says now, since that's what God has done, while we were still like I said at enmity and He saves us then how much more now?

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How much greater of a blessing are we either experiencing now or bound to experience later?

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We talked about how do we enjoy God in the future? You know, is it up high in the sky when you die kind of situation or is it just something that happens now?

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It's both. We start experiencing it now as soon as we are born again.

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And then that's when all the work becomes doing it because we love it.

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Because we want to see God's name glorified all around town. That's why we want other people to enjoy what we're enjoying right now but then in the future because right now our sin hampers that.

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The fact that I still sin, I'm a little bit like Adam kind of hiding away and God's going to ask, where are you son?

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While that's still happening, that's hampering things here but in the future after I die, if that thing falls over and hits

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Mo and kills him the second he's gone that sin nature, that corruption, that's gone.

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And now he is just in the presence, immediately the full presence of all who

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God is. That's another one of the issues we have with this church. They say that after you die, no matter how good you were on this earth, there's still more work that has to be done.

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And you don't go straight into basking in the full presence of God. Maybe if Mo dies right now he might do enough work, there might be some people baptized for him such that he gets to the second degree of glory.

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He gets to be an angel. He gets to visit Jesus and maybe the Holy Spirit. But he doesn't get to experience the body.

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Because God is one if you are a reconciled member of that community you're reconciled with all of them and we're told that that reconciliation happens by grace alone through faith alone.

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As soon as we try to say, oh yeah, I'll do my best and Jesus does the rest I'll climb as high as I can get this will dampen.

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As soon as we start talking about something other than grace Paul says it's either grace or it's by grace not a combination of the two.

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Do you have any questions? Well I do have a couple of questions. First off I want to say,

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I know of myself I just said concerning the tendencies to clear in our hands versus letting

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God take over, I felt that myself and I felt, I've experienced that when

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I try and put on my hands it's a natural tendency to think that if it's up to me that I can live and I will live or die by myself and say

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I tried my best but I know just as you've said, as I take my foot off the gas pedal so to speak and let the good work take over then absolutely things go a lot better entirely up to Him His grace is the only thing that helps us cross that chasm so to speak and I'm grateful for your testimony in that regard

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I do want to ask we have we have praises of faith that God is all loving, all caring all caring all caring which

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God are you talking about? the God in our faith, that's what we say about God so do you believe those attributes apply to God as well?

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yeah, so yeah, so the word of God declares God to be holy and infinite in every aspect of His being, so God is all loving all just, all loving, all merciful, all gracious all kind, all just holy justice and so holy and perfect in all

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His ways, never sinned once, never has never will, always glorifying Himself in everything

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He does everything He does is right, true and righteous and so yes, the word of God, He declares

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Himself, that's who He is, that's how He's shown Himself throughout history in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, He showed

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His grace to sinners, to sinners, the sinners to them who repent and believe the gospel can I ask you another question?

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both of you do you believe that God with those attributes would want the absolute most for us?

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yeah, what kind of, you said absolute most you have to define it, because no, most for us does

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He want us to be the most we can be the best we can be do you not think there's a chance but a

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God with those attributes would want us to be like Him if it were possible. No, because God says,

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I give my glory to no other. He is so holy that we're just creatures. We cannot become like God himself.

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He says, I'm the Lord. Isaiah 44, 6, 10. You may have to correct me. He says,

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I am the Lord. I believe he says, I am the Lord and there is no other. God says that there is no other God. We can't become one. We never could.

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We never will. Jesus actually says in the Gospel of Matthew, we will become like angels. And what do angels do daily in heaven?

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They worship God. That's what we were made to do in the garden. We were made to glorify God. It really is what the best is for us is to enjoy

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Him forever. So if you're talking about best, you're talking about what Mormons call best in terms of becoming just like God, just like Him in terms of His nature, but that's blasphemy.

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That's actually against God. That's sin. That's pride. That's trying to attempt yourself to be like holy God. And that's that's ultimately not true,

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Jonathan. That's sort of where you're pushing it, where you're saying, how would a God so loving and so kind not push us to be just like Him?

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Well, why should He? If He's so holy, so just and kind, why should He make us like Him? For there is no other like Him.

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And why should we disobey Him when He says before me, there were no gods for another shall there be after me? Who are we as creatures to say, no,

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I will become one? That's what Joseph Smith did in the King Follett discourse when he said, we have all to believe that God has been

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God for all eternity. I will refute that idea. And he was surrounded by Christians.

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This is on the east side of the United States. He said, and he says, we have all to believe that God has been

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God for all eternity. I will refute that idea. Remove the veil so that you may see that you must become gods yourselves.

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You see what Joseph Smith just did is that he did exactly what I just said. Instead of submitting unto what

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God says about Christ, about who Christ is, how men can be saved and who men are and who

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God is, he submitted to his own pride and said, no, we will become just like God yourself. That's against God, Jonathan.

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And it's important to also notice that what God has said about himself in uncertain terms.

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Psalm 90 says, from everlasting to everlasting.

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You are God. That's David talking to God. So that the idea isn't that God used to be like us and progressed towards godhood, that God was always exactly what he is now for all eternity.

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You know, never did this thing. Closest to God is when he came down here and took on bodily form of Jesus and lived that perfect life and then made that perfect life in offering for sin.

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And so, you know, when we're saying all this kind of stuff, it's really important to understand that we're talking about a

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God that is far and away, way bigger, way, way, way bigger than somebody who is sort of greater than us, but further along the life cycle.

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Like a president. He's not like some, he's not like, he's not like outside of creation, just putting his finger every now and then.

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He's a sovereign God. We're made in his image in terms of our spirits. We're, his laws are in our consciences.

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We have his attributes. That's what it means to be made in the image of God. It's not that you're the spirit son of Elohim, literally, because John actually says in John 1 .12,

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it is to them who received and believed in his name. He gave them the right to be children of God. Paul also talks about us being adopted into the kingdom of God.

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And I do wonder if it's because we received his word and we see him in us, that as, that as you said, he then accepts us as his children,

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I wonder if it's not so much pride, though I can see why you might think that, but I wonder if it's more about God accepts us as we accept his word, he accepts us as his children.

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So would you accept his word? As such, I do wonder if being all loving, if he would want us to become like him.

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It's not so much that we believe, but in the LDS theology, we believe that's what

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Satan did to happen to him. But he wanted to just take away the power of God, take that whole image, right?

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He didn't want to accept God's word. Yeah. He didn't want to accept his word into himself as God wants us to.

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And that, that is why we believe in Paul. Okay. Do you know what Satan said to Adam?

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Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were done. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm so sorry. Forgive me.

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And so I just wonder if it's really not about pride. It's about God saying, you've accepted my word.

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You have faith in me. You've done what I've asked you to do. You've accepted the fact that you can save yourselves.

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And you've allowed my goodness to save me, my mercy, my justice, and love. And because of that,

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I'm going to give you everything that I have, everything that I have, so that you can experience the joy, the love, and the goodness that I have for you.

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So you brought up Satan and what

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Satan did. I want to ask you, Jonathan, did you know what Satan did in the garden?

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Well. Do you remember what he said to Adam? Or rather, to Eve? To Eve, I believe he, uh, in that one piece, it was as if she took it out fully, that she wouldn't die.

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Right? She said, uh... Yeah, I'm not quite the best first person. Oh, I'm sorry.

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Well, Jonathan, what he said was... Yes, he did say that. I mean, he said what... What he was saying...

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Well, he was telling her, basically, was, did God say that? Or... Or, not rather, or.

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He said, and you will become just like him. Jonathan, that sounds a lot like the

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Mormon church. Now, let me explain to you why that's wrong. Isaiah 43, 10. This is scripture right now.

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This is God's breathed out word of God. He says, before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me.

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I want to break that verse down for you. Before God, there was never any God, neither shall there be any

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God who receives glory in the LDS church. No God will ever attend or receive

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God's glory. It says in Isaiah, I give my glory to no man. So, Isaiah, let me explain what's going on right now.

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You're being told the word of God. Isaiah 43, 10. Before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me.

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So, that's what God says. He's the only God. There's no other God. And you have Joseph Smith, who says you can become one.

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He claims to be a prophet. Now, in the Old Testament, God gave two measurements of how a man is a prophet.

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Number one, if he comes in the name of Yahweh, but he says a prophecy and does not come to pass, don't listen to him.

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Another one is, if a man comes to you doing miracles, signs, and wonders, and leads you after other gods, gods which you have not known, don't listen to him.

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He's a false prophet. He said, it is the Lord your God testing you to see if you truly love the

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Lord your God. Now, Jonathan, what's going on right now is the LDS church, as an

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LDS member, you believe that you will become a god one day. But God says you will never become a god.

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Before him there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me. That's what God says. No, but Jonathan, think about what we're saying.

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If you truly follow Christ, John says, test all things, test the spirits.

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Paul also says, test all things and cling fast to what is true. Hold fast to that which is true. The Mormon church teaches a different Jesus than what

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Jesus says he is. He says, before Abraham was I am. And what the

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Jews said, what the Jews understood that to mean was he was calling himself God. They actually picked up stones to stone him.

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John chapter one, in the beginning was a word. The word is with God. The word was God. It's talking about Jesus, the incarnate word of God.

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He's God in human flesh. He is the eternal son of God. When the Bible says the only begotten son of God, it's actually monogamous.

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Well, monogamous, the original Greek, it means only and unique one. It doesn't mean he's a literal sperm begotten, like, son of Elohim.

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It means that he's the only one from the father, eternally and unique. He's God in human flesh.

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But Jonathan, your church doesn't teach that. And why I'm bringing up Christ is ultimately why you're being saved. Jonathan, you have a different God.

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It doesn't matter what kind of words you use to describe what God you're talking about. He doesn't exist and he cannot save you.

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Does that make sense? There is God. He does genuinely love you. A lot of what you said when we first started is true.

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Not all of it, but a lot of it is. God is looking at us and he's looking down on us to save us.

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He's seeking to be more than us. You said earlier something about wanting to, like, how is it that God accepts people?

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You know, is it accepting us because he sees someone than us? He sees the faith that we have in him.

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The glory of the gospel is that he looks down on those of us who are filthy in our sins.

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I couldn't even begin to tell you the awful stuff, but no deal.

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I'm sorry. I wouldn't disagree. I wouldn't laugh either. It's like, I...

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You've heard the example of the well, like somebody falling in a well and being injured, right?

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It's not normal. You fall in the well, you get injured, and then you have to climb up as high as you can possibly go and then

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Jesus said, fall out of there. That's not what really happened. What really happened is that you fell down the well and it died.

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And the Bible doesn't describe the person who hasn't received the fullness of the gospel.

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We describe this person as being alive and having freedom.

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It describes that person in terms of death and slavery. So if you have accepted a false gospel, the condition that you're in right now is that you are at the bottom of that well and you are dead in your sins.

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The problem is that a dead person can't do anything. But God has looked down on us.

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Because each of us, Mo and I have been in that same way. We've both been dead in our sins. God looked down on each of us.

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And while we were festering, rotting, and smelling, God loved us.

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And he says, not only am I going to let the body down, but Jesus comes down and picks each of us up, drags us out of the well, throws us down on the ground, and gives us the breath of new life.

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That is not something that anyone can conjure up. Saving faith is not something that you can, like a fire that you can just fan into flames.

32:36

It's something that has to be given. I mentioned earlier that Jesus is

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God's condemned, put in his flesh, but then offers us a sacrifice.

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And then after that sacrifice, he is raised up from the dead. And then he ascended into heaven.

32:56

Not into North America, but that's a separate issue. But it's something different. What happens then is for those of us whose faith is placed in Christ our

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God, that entire life, Christ's converted life, the sacrifice of death, is really kicking motors on me.

33:18

His resurrection to newness of life, and his desolation of going back to Islam, that is given as a free gift to each of us.

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We'll put our faith in him, our God, and set aside dead works, set aside vain religion or anything else that can be offered up along with faith.

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And faith alone, grace alone, he offers that whole thing to us and gives it to us freely.

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So that now we are accepted in Christ because of not our own righteousness, goodness knows

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I don't have it, but because of what Romans calls an alien righteousness or a righteousness that is given to us.

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Christ's perfect life is credited to those who place their faith in him. But like I said, it's by grace alone.

34:12

That same Romans also says that after he's done describing the entire process of salvation and how that's received, he says, where then is boasted?

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It's excluded. By what law? By the law of works, but by the law of grace.

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What he's saying there is whatever the gospel is, it's a gospel that leaves us without any need to boast.

34:42

So I can say, honestly, as much as I make fun of other people,

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I don't know if you've noticed that, but it happens. Honestly, I bring nothing to Christ.

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I have no advantage in Him. And so I can't boast about my salvation except to boast to the

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Lord and be grateful for what He's given me. What I see in Mormonism, and I'm not necessarily assuming that you're on the same page with the church because, you know, there's 26 volumes in the

35:14

Journal of Discourses. Nobody knows what's in it. For me, I didn't know what was in it.

35:20

But what I see in there is I see a version of the gospel that leaves all sorts of room for people to devote about anything.

35:30

You know, somebody can say, hey, you know, take a sack of wheat, for example.

35:36

I'm sure you've seen it at some point. Somebody is the water and the, what is it, wafer that you guys use?

35:44

It's bread. Just bread. This starts getting passed down, and you see that one person that just takes the tray and passes it to the person that's infected.

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That is an occasion for people. Similarly, you can have things like, oh,

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I've done so many baptisms for the dead. I've done, I've been sealed in the temple.

36:10

I don't know if you've noticed, but it is hard for a man to get a date if he's not a returned missionary in Provo.

36:21

If you came home early. That is so funny. I didn't know that. Oh, it's true. You're single forever if you came home early, buddy.

36:29

But, and that's kind of what we're talking about. Like, the problem that we have with Mormon churches is that they serve water instead of really, really awful wine.

36:40

I'm sorry. We use the box stuff. TMI. I can't help it.

36:47

The problem isn't like a secondary kind of stuff. The problem is they've given you a version of God that is lesser than what he really is.

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A God who became God instead of being one for all eternity. A God who is the

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Father, but not also the Son and the Holy Spirit. One who is close enough that he could, after a thousand years, attain his glory.

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There are also verses where he says, I am God and there is none like me. There's none like me.

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Not just that there are no other gods, but there's really nobody that can be like me.

37:34

According to, yeah, what were you going to say? I was simply going to say,

37:41

I, I, to be brief, there's a lot of flaws with the people of the church.

37:50

They're not dating until initially they came home early. There's just so many different, there's no slants.

38:02

You say a little louder? I'll bet. There are just so many. I'm so sorry. Forgive me the, the traffic. There are just so many traditions that we hold for one reason or another that ultimately isn't correct and doesn't bring us closer to God.

38:15

Let me ask you a personal question that you're of course free to not answer. If you've been through everything you say you've been through, what led you to your current beliefs?

38:26

What led you to your current view of God? Well, there, there are a couple of different ways to go about answering this because, um, you know,

38:36

I grew up in a family that believes the same things that I've just described. Are you referring to the

38:43

BDS church as well? No, no, no. To, uh, I, I grew up in a Protestant Christian family, um, that really wouldn't object to anything that I just said.

38:53

So like, I didn't grow up in a Mormon church personally or, uh, I did. He did. Yeah. Okay. And so there's a sense in which, um, at least on the intellectual level, some of my beliefs were just sort of natural because I kind of grew up in it.

39:09

Like I, I didn't, I don't remember a time when I ever didn't believe in God. You know, it was just something that was always there.

39:15

But I, and like, I went to a couple of different Christian schools and stuff. And, but when

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I graduated from high school, I realized I had been force fed this stuff intravenously my entire life.

39:30

And I started to say, you know what? I need to put this to the test. I need to go out there and encounter other worldviews and things, and not just in a sort of relativistic kind of all views are really cool, but more like,

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I want to hear what other people have to say about the stuff that I believe so that, hey, uh, the truth about God is always better than anything that's false about it.

39:53

That's why, that's why we call it the good news, not the bad news. Yeah. So the word gospel means basically just good news.

40:00

Yeah. I mean, we're not here to just say like, Oh, Hey, the, the organization that gave you all the beliefs that you won't hear isn't true.

40:09

Have a nice night. It's, you know, the issue that we've had is what we've been saying, but like the truth is better.

40:15

And so I went out and I started saying, okay, well, I'm not going to abandon all my beliefs, but I'm just going to put them all to the test.

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And so on an intellectual level, that led me to the doctrines that I currently believe.

40:28

But ultimately you can study all sorts of good theology and never come to genuinely saving faith.

40:40

Real saving faith has three parts to it. One is content, just understanding what you're, what it is that you believe in.

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Second part is having an intellectual ascent of faith. Okay. I agree with this.

40:54

The third part is the part that only God can provide, which is genuine trust.

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I didn't come to where I am because I was so diligent in my studies that I found the truth.

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God brought me here by giving me the faith. Even the faith itself, you know, we read from Ephesians two, the faith itself is a gift.

41:19

So I can't even say, Oh, well, you know what? At the end of the day, I am where I am because I had so much hope that was given to me.

41:26

And what our, what our prayer is for you, and we'll be praying for you after we have, whenever we finish this conversation, if it's in two minutes or two hours, you know, our desire for you is that you would come to know

41:39

God as he is, that he would bring you to himself. That you would not end up having to glorify him and his justice and his wrath, but rather his grace and his mercy and his affection, that you would be, you would find what it really means to enjoy him forever.

41:58

Yeah. So if you're talking about my personal experience of how

42:08

I know God, I was going to ask that. Yes, sir. Well, if you're talking about how the

42:15

Lord saved me, or if you're talking about like theologically, how God saved me. I suppose what

42:20

I'm asking is, because now you said you were also a member. Yeah, I was. Yeah, there was faith. My question is really the same.

42:27

I'm sorry, what was your name? Ryan. Ryan. My question is the same as to Ryan, if you'd like to answer it.

42:34

That is what, what brought you from what you knew then, what you felt, what you at one point believed, to what you feel and believe now?

42:42

Um, basically, I was also a

42:48

Mormon. I grew up LDS, baptized at eight, did the whole baptism for the dead and the whole lot.

42:54

Right. I did it all. One thing is though, when it came to defending the faith, when it came to what did

43:02

Jesus actually say about himself, what is the gospel according to God's word and not according to men, that's where it started.

43:11

That's how, that's how God saved me. That's how I became a Christian. It ultimately began with, whether I was going to believe my feelings or the word of God.

43:22

Because you see, Mormons are not Mormons, but rather Muslims have the same feelings. It's how they have good feelings as well.

43:29

And so if I, if I targeted someone as a Mormon and said, well, I have based on my personal experience and my testimony,

43:35

I say this. Well, don't you see, Jonathan, is that Muslims also have the same thing.

43:41

They also have a testimony, but that does not make their church true. It makes absolutely nothing true.

43:47

Someone can have a testimony about a lie and not know it. So what basically pulled me in was who

43:53

Jesus was. The LDS church teaches that Jesus is Lucifer's brother, that he's a created being.

44:00

And Jesus himself, in John 1, John says that the beginning was the word, the word is with God, the word was

44:06

God. So you're saying that Jesus is God, the one who created the whole, like heavens and the earth, the eternal son of God, not a created being.

44:15

And that Jesus, when learning about what the gospel is, because according to God's word, the most salvific and central things on what makes someone a

44:23

Christian or not is if they believe who God truly is, who God is, depending on who they, what do they think about God and how do they believe they're saved from him.

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And the LDS church taught that it was by faith and works. That's how I believe. That's how

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I thought of when I was Mormon. That's how I would try to defend the faith. But actually what the

44:45

Bible says is every man, when they are born from the womb, even as a child, are children of wrath.

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They are born evil with an evil nature. We are wretched men by nature. We choose evil daily on a basis because that's just who we are.

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There is no good in me. There is no good in anyone, not even children. There is no good in them. Not that that children are good, but their nature in and of themselves are not good.

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So that's what the Bible says. And so how can you save men if none are good and no, not one?

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If all are condemned under the wrath of God, how can a man be saved? And that's when the gospel comes in. The Bible says that Jesus, the only beyond from God, the only from God, perfect and holy took upon flesh 2 ,000 years ago, lived a perfect life and then even submitted

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Himself unto the Father by dying on the cross, paying for the sins of all who believe in Him, all those who trust in Him.

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Their sins are laid upon Him and He takes the wrath instead of them. And that's how they're saved, through faith in Christ, a trusting in Christ, repentance, a turning from their sins to Christ, repentance not in and of itself a work, it's just basically turning from what whatever they were in to faith in Christ and only

46:05

God can grant that. Ephesians chapter two. You might not have heard this verse. You said you're not, you know, remembered in verses.

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This isn't actually Ephesians chapter two. For by grace are you saved through faith, not by words, lest any man should boast.

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And that not of yourselves. That's what it says. But Jonathan, you may tell me, oh, yes,

46:25

I agree. It's only by the grace of God that we step over problems. But Jonathan, what we're not, we're not talking about a death of the family.

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We're not talking about a stressful day at work. What we're talking about is the wrath of God and saving us from our own sins.

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Grace is something that is not worked for, but given from God. It's only, it can only come from God.

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It is a gift from God. It's grace through faith, through that.

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That's how God saved me. That's how I came to believe who God was. It's through his word.

47:00

I'm Jonathan. And I'm just, I want you to know.

47:07

Because I also was born. We can sit here talking about testimonies, having our admiring sighs over.

47:16

Oh, yes, I agree. You know what I mean? A lot of flattery. But Jonathan, in reality, what we're here to do is preach you the gospel, dude.

47:24

We believe that you're in a church. That you wish to glorify yourself as a

47:30

God. But God says you cannot become one. Jonathan, I know how, you know, when you're a Mormon, I know the teachings.

47:36

I know the emotions. I know the feelings. Sacrament sometimes even is just a tear contest, at least when

47:45

I was. But in reality, what we're here, Jonathan, for is to give you the gospel.

47:52

And we believe that you are still under the wrath of God. You're still in your sins. You know, and you're good.

48:01

What were you going to say? I was going to say, and I appreciate it. You know, I can't have a lot of faith to come out here and say what you're saying to folks who live out of this world.

48:11

By the grace of God, by the grace of God. You stated that LDS folk, that they have the feelings, they have the feelings.

48:19

The Muslims too, I've certainly heard that as well. Let me ask a question.

48:26

Does that mean since you have come to have your current beliefs and views of God, does that mean you've not felt his presence at all in your life?

48:40

Okay. You've not felt him at all. So if you're talking about feeling in terms of my experience with the love of Christ and the love of God, yes,

48:47

I've felt it. Emotions in terms of, let's say, comfort or any experience really.

48:54

I've experienced experiences, walking as a Christian in the love of God, experiencing the truth. But you see these experiences,

49:00

Jonathan, they don't sprout from random acts of disobedience. Out of nowhere, these feelings sprout from truth, who

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God truly is. Let me be honest with you. If I was killing someone and I felt good, there's something wrong with me.

49:18

Do you see what I'm getting at? So yeah, so we have feelings. We're not denying feelings. But you see, our feelings don't determine what's true.

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I can feel one day like trash, the Lord of glory is still forgiving me in his grace.

49:33

I still walk in newness of life, but not in the church though. They don't believe that,

49:39

Jonathan. As much as you want to say it right now, their doctrines do not teach that. It's also important to understand that the

49:47

Holy Spirit is not the only spirit. And one of the problems that we face is that, the problem isn't so much that the devil will always make us feel bad, or that the only times he ever makes us feel good are like doing sex stuff or things like that.

50:05

That is the most five -year -old way I could have put that, so I apologize. Or lack of better words. You know, the devil doesn't just make people feel good when they're doing carnal things.

50:15

But also in Matthew 24, Jesus is talking to his disciples about what's going to come in the future.

50:27

But he says that when he returns, there are going to be people coming around saying, uh, you know, don't go.

50:38

They're going to be coming around saying, go to the mountains. Jesus is over there. Go into the valley. Jesus is over there.

50:43

And Jesus says, don't believe them because when I come back, everyone's going to know. Does that happen?

50:51

Yeah, I don't know. No? When did you see it? I, I gotta go.

50:57

I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna write. Yeah, well, we have, the issue is that people tend to think the devil is going to make us feel awful all the time or just make us feel like he, but what

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Jesus says when he's talking about his return is he says, they're going to be people that say, go follow Jesus. There he is.

51:14

And he's not over there. And so I think that's the problem that we have, but that's another problem that we have with Mormonism.

51:21

People are saying, uh, you know, I have this really deep spiritual experience. And so that must mean this is where God is.

51:28

This is where God wants me. I believe what you're saying is that the devil can move somebody to have, uh, a really powerful, positive sounding spiritual experience, but that's separate from what

51:44

God has said in his word. And I don't know about you, but when I have emotions, is that, yeah, that's the weirdest way

51:50

I can put it. Well, when I, when I feel something that's often not a good indicator of like what the truth is.

51:57

I don't know how many times I've gotten in trouble with women by doing stuff. The Bible actually says in Jeremiah 17, nine, the heart is deceitful and wicked above all things who can know it.

52:06

And if you ever put your, your feelings in or your, rather your trust in what you're experiencing, the Bible actually condemns what you're doing.

52:12

It says that what you're doing is wicked and evil because you're trusting in your heart. Your heart could be leading you to anything, to adultery.

52:20

Proverbs describes it as being foolish, like a fool trusts in his heart. It says whoever trusts in his heart, Proverbs 26 is stupid.

52:29

That is, that is literally what the translation is. Stupid. There's some translation where it says they're stupid and they smell bad and they're weird.

52:38

He made that up. That's the Ryan Living Translator. That's the Ryan Translator. But Jonathan, because we, you know, it's getting late.

52:45

We don't want you. Yeah. You have, you know. I just wanted to say that, um, the more

52:52

I've tried to learn about God, the more I realize I really don't understand what he means.

53:00

So I see what you're saying. Is that what you see? I see what you're saying about the feelings. You have a feeling.

53:05

What does it really mean? Who knows? That's what I've come to realize. That's something, that's something you just, you have to go with God.

53:13

Basic things like he wants us to keep his commandments. Yeah, I know that. But you're absolutely right.

53:21

I know that. I've seen for myself, if we just go off what we feel without seeing the world's world, then we're going to get lost pretty darn much.

53:31

You are right. It is getting late. I'll let you say what you want to say. I just want to say that I do thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

53:38

No, thank you, sir, for coming. And I thank you, God, for what you're doing. I just want to tell you, brethren, the

53:47

Lord has more in store for you than what even you believe. And I do hope that as you continue on in your faith and your following of Christ, that you'll seek it out.

53:59

Because I believe that God wants so much more than we can possibly know.

54:06

And you may disagree, but I know of myself. The Lord wants to give us everything he has.

54:15

And it's ultimately up to us to accept him into our lives, as you've said, and I appreciate your words on that matter.

54:24

But I know if we do, he's going to bless us with so much. You may not think we have doing enough.

54:32

But he's going to give us our hopes, our dreams, our wants.

54:39

He will help us overcome our fears. And Mo, I thank you for giving me the background of your personal experience in the

54:46

LDS faith. And what led you to seek different answers and come to know

54:53

Christ as you do now. Ryan, I thank you for doing the same thing. I thank you for coming out here and sharing your heartfelt beliefs with me.

55:03

My heartfelt belief is that God wants us to be like him. And I hope as you pray for me, you'll just keep in mind that as much as you want to help me,

55:13

I want to help everyone I can too, okay? And whatever happens, you'll just be better than yourself.

55:20

Well, Jonathan, with everything you said, truly I'm flattered. I know you believe exactly what you believe.

55:28

But in reality, according to God's word, you believe you're deceived. And what you said, the things you said, though they may be sincere about the

55:37

God of Mormonism is not real. And the true God of Scripture calls you to faith and repentance in Christ.

55:45

We tell you now, we love the conversation. We love that. We pray that the Lord saves you. We pray, we also,

55:52

Lord, that you will understand that it was Jesus Christ, God in human flesh. He took upon flesh and he had a perfect life, a life which we ought to live, but we did not.

56:06

And he died a death, which he did, but we didn't. And he did this to the glory of the Father, that those who trust and believe in him, his righteousness, it may be theirs and our sins may be his.

56:18

That is the gospel that we preach to you, that you may be saved through faith in Christ and in Christ alone. We thank you for coming.

56:23

We're so glad you came, but can I make a recommendation? You said you weren't all that familiar with Scripture yet.

56:29

You're right. Yeah, I've slacked off. Do you have a copy of the Bible that you can feel like you can read comfortably?

56:36

Where's the, do you have the little book? Yeah. Good. I recommend, as you go home, as you move forward with your life,

56:46

I recommend taking some time to go slowly through the book of Romans. The situation in Romans is that, you know, they had a church there that was...

56:56

Oh, my bad. The situation in Romans is that they had a church that didn't have the benefit of having, like, any

57:07

Scripture or an apostle there. And so Paul was like, you know what? I want to tell these people that I'm planning on getting out there and I want to give them just a bare -bones, surface -level kind of gospel message and explain the basics of it to them.

57:24

And so I think that would be a good place for you to start as you're trying to get more familiar with the Bible, just to explain what the gospel is in a way that...

57:38

It is way better and is way more, it articulates it better. So you say the whole book of Romans?

57:43

Yeah. And then the next letter. And then the next.

57:49

And then you got to get to the apocryphal. No, okay. That joke is too far.

57:58

Okay, okay. But anyways, Jonathan, thank you so much for...

58:04

If you do have questions, more, we come here every

58:09

Thursday. We'll see you literally next Thursday. Same night and time, huh? Are you guys still living around here now?

58:17

No, we're from a neighboring church and it's called Apologia Studios. Or not

58:22

Apologia Studios, but Apologia. You can find us on YouTube, our website. Check us out.

58:28

Check the... Apologia, Utah is going to be the one that will have this. The sirens don't drown us out.

58:36

Like, I guess I'm a YouTube person. You're still in the Provo area if you're coming here every week? Every week. Ryan, good to meet you.