How to Talk with Latter Day Saints

A Mormon Visitor Asks What Christians Believe

I read your flyer here. Nice. I was just wondering what you have to say. Okay. So, like, what's on the flyer, or... So, I suppose so. I just wanted to hear where you're coming from. I wanted to hear what your beliefs are.

Okay. Yeah, so we're Bible-believing Christians. We're from Apologia. We're Reformed Baptists. We're here preaching the gospel to Mormons. Not just Mormons. Any unbeliever. But, yeah, we're convinced by Scripture.

I'm sure you read it in that tract that Mormonism has a different God, a different Christ, and a different gospel. Mormon Church. Yeah. So, we're here not to bash their faith, but to put it where it belongs, in a true God, the true Christ.

And so, if that's what you mean, that's where we're coming from. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm sure if you haven't read the tract, it's in the tract already. We'd ask you, Jonathan, actually, before we get into that, what are your beliefs in God?

Being a member of the Elders Church.

I believe He's a Father. A loving Father in Heaven. Someone who legitimately cares about me. Someone who legitimately is concerned about me. Someone who wants me to be happy. Wants to give me what I want.

Wants to show me the best way to live so that I can be happy. And ultimately, turn to Him, too, and partake in His grace.

Partake in His glory. So, okay, so you're, as an LDS member, believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet. And with what you said, basically, who you believe God to be, you're saying you came to that truth on the basis of experience.

Experience is what brought you there? Correct, yeah. Okay. So, okay, so this is where we're going to start differing with you. The word of difference is where we agree that your God is different. Near the end of what you said, you said that you were partaking in the glory of God.

God's Glory, Isaiah 43:10, and the Mormon View of Exaltation

But God, in Scripture, in the Bible, in Isaiah, He says, I give my glory to no man. To no one else will I give my glory. It says in Isaiah 43, 10, Before me there were no gods for me, neither shall there be after me.

But Joseph Smith, the founder of this church, actually said, We have ought to believe that God has been God for all eternity. I will refute this idea, remove the veil so that you may see that you must become God yourselves.

And so, instead of believing what God says in Isaiah 43, 10, Before me there were no gods for me, neither shall there be after me. Meaning, apart from God, there is no other God ever. Like, never will there be another one.

Joseph Smith said, you know, you actually will become one. Before God, there were gods. That's against what God says, though. And so that's where we're differing, and that's where we're here teaching.

Yeah, it's one of the things as well. The deeper that you look into it, the more things kind of pop up. But, you know, like we were saying before, it's not just that there's a difference. That God is better than what you've been told.

So, like, everything that somebody could say about a real God, it's all true about just one being, just Him. And it's not, we don't have to really work through, well, how can it be that, like, the Father is God, and the Son says, in the beginning was the Word, that is Jesus, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

That's kind of an issue, not really for us, because we can say, well, you know, there's a difference between the Father and the Son, but it's one being. And so, it's, God is just far, far greater in a variety of different ways.

...is something you can spend your entire life kind of dwelling on, that you can benefit from, but it's one aspect of how He's greater. So, what my brother is explaining, basically, it was just, amen, like, God is, according to His Word, triune in His very nature, Jesus is God incarnate.

He's God in the flesh. And the church denies that. They believe that He's the brother of Lucifer, a creation. They believe that Jesus is created. But it says in John 1, verse 1,. In the beginning was the Word, the Word is with God, the Word was...

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. There's nothing that was made that was not made by Him. It says in verse 14,. And the Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us.

But the church doesn't believe that. They believe that... Oh, well, it's probably from what he was saying. The Bible and what the Word of God teaches is the Father, the Son, they are one being. But they are three separate persons, three distinct persons.

But the church doesn't believe that Jesus is God. They believe that He's not the creator of all things. They believe He's the creation. They believe that you're His brother, Satan's His brother, the fallen angels are also brothers, which contradicts what the Bible says, what the Word of God says in John.

The reality is that God is an entirely incomprehensibly higher order of being than what we know. So, you know, in the Mormon church, the idea is, well, if we progress a certain amount, we can become what God is, like the couplet that I'm sure you've heard before.

And so what God is is just immeasurably greater. And there are certain aspects that we can have in common with Him. Like when He says that we are created in His image, what that means is that we are literally His offspring.

What that means is that there are certain aspects of our character and our lives that reflect His greatness. So when Mo says something wise, did that ever happen to you? Did you... Did you get that last part?

I didn't catch the line. I had to set up for your joke. It was a great joke. It was the funniest thing you've ever heard. Oh, gosh darn it. Yeah. Obviously, you know, you've heard that man is made in the image of God.

Right, right, right. Well, in the church, the idea is, at least as far as I understand, is that there's a quasi-biological type of relationship. Like this is an indication that we're the same kind of being that Jesus was.

Is that... No, I'm not saying that.

Like you're the son of Elohim, and then you're going to grow up to become Elohim. Yeah, I mean... Or other words of it. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, basic. But we can... We have the opportunity. Okay. Can I make a statement and ask a question?

So I'm not... The statement is, I'm not very well versed in any scriptural approach. I'm not the most judicious member of the faith. But I do read some scripture. I do read scripture on occasion. I'm trying to do it now.

So when it comes to scriptural references, you're going to find me quite a bit. Okay. My question to you is, as members, you said you were of the Baptist sect. Is that correct? We're Reformed Baptists.

Glorifying God, Enjoying Him Forever, and Salvation by Grace Through Faith

Yeah. Okay. What do you believe God wants for us? Okay, so if you're talking about like a general sense... A general sense, but also what you personally believe God wants for you.

Well, that's an interesting way of putting that because ultimately what we want is to have our beliefs conform as much as possible to what God has said in His Word. So, you know, if I say something that's completely like theologically ridiculous, I'd rather have you come up to me and literally slap me across the face and say, Ephesians 3 or whatever says something else.

Yeah. But ultimately, the purpose for God creating all of humanity is to glorify Himself. There you go. And what I'm concerned about when I say that, though, is that you and I might not have quite the same definition of what glorify means.

Well, we do have that phrase in our faith, gosh. Okay, so yeah. I love the way you put it. Especially when you edit. No, I'm just kidding. Anyway, so what we're saying is basically if you're talking about my own subjective, relative, own personal belief of God, that doesn't matter when God says something different.

So if God says this about Himself, that before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me. Me, a creature who was made a servant ought to worship the living God I'm not supposed to.

What I'm not supposed to be doing is saying to God or before men, oh no, I'll become just like Him. Just right after He just said, no, before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me.

I'm lying and I'm going against what God says. So if you're talking about what do we personally believe about God, primarily or generally, we believe that God has made humans, made man to glorify Himself and for us to enjoy Him forever.

Not to give us what we want, especially because we're born sinners according to Ephesians 2, we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Therefore, we don't recognize that there's a lot of things that we might want that are not good.

Inherently sinful, right. And so like, what God wants also primarily is that men repent and believe the gospel. That glorifies Him. Yeah. When we talk about God being glorified, it's not about like Him progressing or anything like that.

It's that His aspects and His character.

And His attributes would be made known.

And that people would be praised for those things.

And so for me, what that comes down to a lot is trying to live my life in a way that doesn't bring me shame. But that's partly because of the fact that He has raised me from the dead spiritually. We don't start out in a position where we are neutral towards God.

The Bible says that we are enmity with Him. That's like a fancy transfer that just means that in our nature... We're enemies of God. Yeah, there's something about God's nature that we hate Him. We're allergic to Him in a sense.

And I think that's His sovereignty. That's His rulership over us. It's fine for us to say God is holy, but when God says, oh, and I'm holy, and also you are being commanded to be holy as well, that's when we start saying, oh, wait, maybe not.

You had stated that... I can't remember the exact word, but I might be correct. You had stated you believe that we are to glorify God... And enjoy Him forever. And enjoy Him forever. So, how do you believe that both of you believe we are to enjoy Him forever?

How does that work? How do we get to that point? What does enjoy mean? So, is it something that we start doing right here and now as soon as we're saved through Jesus Christ? Is it something that we die, after our death, we go on to do forever, for all time?

If you could explain that to me.

Okay, so yeah, what basically the Bible says is, once a man who puts his faith and returns from his wicked ways, trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, taking upon the wrath of God, sinners, trusting in Him, the Bible actually says there are made new creatures in Christ, for by grace are you saved through faith, by grace through faith, not by works, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.

So, so, for good works, the church would say, in the Book of Mormon, Moroni chapter 10, verse 32, it actually says, after denying all ungodliness, loving the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength, then is grace sufficient for you?

So what the church is actually doing, and I'm trying to put it here because you're an LDS and we're Christians, the church actually believes that it's faith plus works, it's faith and grace, but the Bible goes against that.

The Bible says that good works are a fruit of my salvation, but they're not the root of my salvation. It's not what saves me inherently. What saves me is the good works, not of me, but of Christ. Those are the only works that send me to heaven.

The only works that could justify me, the only thing that I could send before God and be justified and have the opportunity to enjoy Him is the resurrection and death and burial of Christ. But if you're talking about enjoyment in terms of actions and good works, we enjoy God by obeying Him, obeying His commands, doing His Word, preaching the Gospel, eating and drinking to the glory of God, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10, 31, whether you eat or you drink, do all to the glory of God.

So if you're talking about enjoying and glorifying God forever, we're obeying His Word, we're repenting of sin and trusting and doing more good works that will glorify Him and not ourselves. But this is out of love for God and not a need of being saved, because we are saved.

And so that's what we would say. Let's not check out a list.

Or doing something because we think we can gain a better position with God. Or if I do these things, God will like me better, but if I don't do these things,.

Well then maybe the Holy Spirit will leave me behind or maybe there will be some kind of problem in between me and God. You know, and I get this because I sometimes start thinking that way first and then again.

Well, I've been really falling away doing a lot of stuff that I'm not supposed to do. Then I remind myself of a lot of the stuff that Mo just said. You know, my salvation is based.

On my own performance. If it was,.

I would either be permanently emotionally crushed or just neurotic like you wouldn't believe. Every single decision would be is this the sin that cost me everything? You know, is this it? Is this the last one?

But the reality is that God having from all eternity known exactly everything that was going to happen including this conversation right here. He's known that I was going to be the sinner that I am and from all eternity past He has chosen not just to love me out of disaffection but to love me in this way.

The Bible says that Christ loved us in such a way that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. And then He says now since that's what God has done while we were still, like I said, at enmity with Him and He saves us then how much more now?

How much greater of a blessing are we either experiencing now or bound to experience? Earlier you talked about how do we enjoy God in the future? Is it a pie in the sky when you die kind of situation or is it just something that happens now?

It's both. We start experiencing it now as soon as we are born again. And then that's when all the work becomes doing it because we love it. Because we want to see God's name be glorified all around town that's why we want other people to enjoy what we're enjoying right now but then in the future because right now our sin hampers that.

The fact that I still sin I'm a little bit like Adam kind of hiding away and God's going to ask where are you son? While that's still happening that's hampering things here but in the future. After I die if that thing falls over and hits Moe and kills him the second he's gone that sin nature that corruption that's gone.

And now he is just in the presence immediately the full presence of all of who God is. That's another one of the issues we have with this church they say that after you die no matter how good you were on this earth there's still more work that has to be done.

And you don't go straight into basking in the full presence of God maybe if Moe dies right now he might do enough work there might be some people baptized for him such that he gets to the second degree of glory he gets to be an angel he gets to visit the Church of Jesus and maybe the Holy Spirit.

But he doesn't get to experience the body. Because God is one if you are a reconciled in member of that community you're reconciled with all of them and we're told that that reconciliation happens by grace alone through faith alone.

As soon as we try to say oh yeah I'll do my best.

I'll climb as high as I can get. This will dampen. As soon as we start saying that we're talking about something other than grace.

God says it's either grace or it's by grace not a combination of the two.

Do you have any questions? Well I do have a couple of questions. First off I want to say I know of myself. I just said concerning the tendencies to put it in our hands versus letting God take over. I felt that myself and I felt I've experienced that when I try and put it on my hands it's a natural tendency to think that if it's up to me that I can live and I will live or die by myself and say I'll try my best.

I know just as you've said as I take my foot off the gas pedal how could it take over. And absolutely we know a lot better. It's entirely up to Him. His grace is the only thing.

That helps us cross that that chasm so to speak.

And I'm grateful for your testimony in that regard. I do want to ask we have we have phrases in our faith that God is all loving all merciful all kind. Which God are you talking about? God in our faith that's what we say about God.

So do you believe those attributes apply to God as well?

God’s Holiness, His Attributes, and Why Humans Cannot Become Gods

Yeah so yeah. So the word of God declares God to be holy and infinite in every aspect of His being. So God is all loving, all just all loving all merciful, all gracious, all kind all just holy justice.

And so holy and perfect in all His ways never sinned once never has, never will always glorifying Himself in everything He does everything He does is right true and righteous. And so yes the word of God He declares Himself that's who He is that's how He's shown Himself throughout history.

In the death, burial and resurrection of Christ He showed His grace to sinners, to them who repented and believed the gospel. Let me ask you another question both of you okay. Do you believe that God with those attributes would want the absolute most for us?

Yeah. What kind of you said. Absolute most. You have to define it because no most for us does. He want us to be the most we can be, the best we can be. Do you not think there's a chance that God with those attributes would want us to be like Him if it were possible.

No because God says I give my glory to no other.

He is so holy that we're just creatures. We cannot become like God Himself. He says I'm the Lord. Isaiah 44, 6, 10. You may have to correct me. He says I am the Lord. I believe. He says I am the Lord.

And there is no other God says that there is no other God. We can't become one. We never could we never will. Jesus actually says in the gospel of Matthew we will become like angels. And what do angels do daily in heaven.

They worship God. That's what we were made to do in the garden. We were made to glorify God. That really is what the best is for us is to enjoy Him forever. So if you're talking about best you're talking about what Mormons call best in terms of becoming just like God just like Him in terms of His nature.

But that's blasphemy. That's actually against God. That's sin. That's pride. That's trying to attempt yourself to be like holy God. And that's that's ultimately not true Jonathan. That's sort of where you're pushing it where you're saying how would a God so loving and so kind not push us to be just like Him.

Well why should He if He's so holy so just and kind why should He make us like Him. For there is no other like Him. And why should we disobey Him. When He says before me there were no gods for Him neither shall there be after Me.

Who are we as creatures to say no. I will become one. That's what Joseph Smith did in the King Follett discourse when he said we have all to believe that God has been God for all eternity. I will refute that idea.

And he was surrounded by Christians. This is on the east side of the United States he said. And he says we have all to believe that God has been God for all eternity. I will refute that idea remove the veil so that you may see that you must become gods yourselves.

You see what Joseph Smith just did is he did exactly what I just said. Instead of submitting unto what God says about Christ about who Christ is how men can be saved and who men are and who God is. He submitted to his own pride and said no we will become just like God yourself.

That's against God. Jonathan. And it's important to also notice that what God has said about Himself in the uncertain times Psalm 90 says from everlasting to everlasting you are God. That's David talking to God so that the idea isn't that God used to be like us and progressed towards Godhood that God was always exactly what He is now for all eternity.

You know never did this thing closest to God is when He came down here and took on bodily form of Jesus and lived that perfect life and then made that perfect life in offering for sin. And so you know when we're saying all this kind of stuff it's really important to understand that we're talking about a God that is far and away way bigger way way way bigger than somebody who is sort of greater than us.

But further along the life cycle like a president he's not like some. He's not like he's not like outside of creation just putting his finger every now and then. He's a sovereign God. We're made in His image in terms of our spirits we're His laws are in our consciences we have His attributes.

That's what it means to be made in the image of God. It's not that you're the spirit son of Elohim. Literally because John actually says in John 1 12 it is to them who received and believed in His name He gave them the right to be children of God.

Paul also talks about us being adopted into the kingdom of God. And I do wonder if it's because we received His word and we see Him in us that as you said He then accepts us as His children. I wonder if it's not so much pride though I can see why you might think that.

But I wonder if it's more about God accepts us as we accept His word. And He accepts us as His children so would you accept His word? As such.

I do wonder if being all-loving if He would want us to become like Him. It's not so much that we believe but in the LDS theology we believe that's what Satan wanted to happen to him. But he wanted to just take away the power of God take that whole thing right?

He didn't want to accept God's word. He didn't want to accept His word into Himself as God wants us to. And that that is why we believe far above. Do you know what Satan said to Adam? Oh I'm sorry I thought you were done.

I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm so sorry. Forgive me forgive me. Everything that I have so you can experience the joy and love and goodness that I have for you please. So you you brought up Satan and what Satan did.

I want to ask you Jonathan did you know what Satan did in the garden? No. Do you remember what he said to Adam? Or rather to Eve? To Eve I believe he. I believe he said that if she took it out fully that she wouldn't die right?

She said Yeah. I'm not quite the best first responder. Oh I'm sorry. Well Jonathan what he said was yes. He did say that he said what what he was. Well he was telling her basically was did God say that?

Or or not. Rather or he said. And you will become just like Him. Jonathan that sounds a lot like the Mormon church. Now let me explain to you why that's wrong. Isaiah 43 10 this is scripture right now this is God's breathe out word of God.

He says before me there were no gods formed neither shall there be after me. I want to break that verse down for you before God there was never any God. Neither shall there be any God who receives glory in.

In the LDS church no God will ever attend or receive God's glory.

It says in Isaiah I give my glory to no man. So Isaiah let me let me explain what's going on right now. You're being told the word of God. Isaiah 43 10 before before me there were no gods formed. Neither shall there be after me.

So that's what God says. He's the only God. There's no other God. And you have Joseph Smith who says you can become one. He claims to be a prophet. Now in the Old Testament God gave two measurements of how a man is a prophet.

Number one if he comes in the name of Yahweh but he says a prophecy does not come to pass. Don't be don't listen to him. Another one is if a man comes to you doing miracles signs and wonders and leads you out of the other gods gods which you have not known.

Don't listen to him. He's a false prophet. He said it is the Lord the Lord your God testing you to see if you truly love the Lord your God. Now Jonathan what's going on right now. Is the LDS church. As an LDS member you believe that you will become a God one day.

But God says you will never become a God before him. There were no gods formed. Neither shall there be after me. That's what God says. No but Jonathan think about what we're saying. If you if you truly follow Christ.

John says test all things. Test the spirits. Paul also says test all things and cling fast to what is true. Hold fast to that which is true. The Mormon church teaches a different Jesus than what Jesus says he is.

He says before Abraham was I am. And what the Jews said. What the Jews understood that to mean was he was calling himself God. They actually picked up stones to stone him. John chapter 1 in the beginning was the word.

The word was with God. The word was God. It's talking about Jesus the incarnate word of God. He is God in human flesh. He is the eternal son of God. When the Bible when the when the Bible says only begotten son of God it's actually monogamous.

What. Monogamous. The original Greek it means only and unique one. It doesn't mean he's a literal sperm begotten like you know son of Elohim it means that he's the only one from the Father eternally and unique.

He's God in human flesh. But Jonathan your church doesn't teach that. And why. I'm bringing up Christ is ultimately why I bring saved Jonathan.

You have a different God. It doesn't matter what kind of words you use to describe what God you're talking about. He doesn't exist and he cannot save you. Does that make sense? There is God. He does genuinely love you.

Salvation, Feelings, and the Danger of Trusting Experience

Yeah. A lot of what you said when we first started is true. Not all of it but a lot of it is God's looking there and he's looking down at us and he's looking down at this conversation and he's seeking to be more of God.

You said earlier something about like how is it that God accepts people. You know is it accepting us because he sees some more than us. He sees the faith that we have in him. The glory of the guidance of God is that he looks down on those of us who are filthy in our sins.

I couldn't even begin to tell you personally the awful stuff and no deal. I'm sorry I wouldn't disagree I wouldn't laugh either. It's like the reality is you've heard the example of the well like somebody falling in a well and being injured right?

You fall in the well you get injured and then you have to climb up as high as you can possibly go. And then Jesus said fall out of there. That's not what really happened. What really happened is that you fell down the well and you died.

And the bible doesn't describe the person who hasn't received the fullness of the gospel. It doesn't describe this person as being alive and having freedom. It describes that person in terms of death and slavery.

So if you have accepted a false gospel the condition that you're in right now is that you are at the bottom of that well and that you are dead in your sin. The problem is that a dead person can't do anything but God has looked down on us because each of us Mo and I have been in that same way we've both been dead in our sin.

God looked down on each of us and while we were festering rotting and smelling God loved us and he says not only am I going to live the life again but Jesus comes down and picks each of us up drags us out of the well throws us down on the ground and gives us the breath of new life.

That is not something that anyone can conjure up. Um saving faith is not something that you can like like a fire that you can just fan into flames. It's something that has to be given. I mentioned earlier that Jesus is God putting his flesh his flesh on himself living a perfect life which he then offers as a sacrifice.

And then after that sacrifice he's raised up again. And then he ascended into heaven not into North America but that's a separate issue. But it's something that happens then is for those of us whose faith is placed in your highest hope that entire faith is converted by the sacrifice of death.

He's really.

Kicking motors on here. His his resurrection to newness of life and his destiny going back to Islam that is given as a free gift to each of us who put our faith in him and love and set aside dead works set aside fame religion or anything else that can be offered up along with faith like faith alone like grace alone he offers that whole thing to us and gives it to us freely so that now we are accepted in Christ because of not our own righteousness goodness knows.

I don't have it but because of what Romans calls an Indian righteousness or a righteousness that is given to us Christ's perfect life is credited to those who place their faith in him but like I said it's by grace alone that same.

Romans also says that after he after he's done describing the entire process of salvation and how that's received he says where then is both it's excluded by what law by the law of works but by the law of grace.

What he's saying there is whatever the gospel is. It's a gospel that leaves us without any need to both. So I I can say honestly as much as I make fun of other people. I don't know if you've noticed that it happens.

Honestly I bring nothing to Christ. I have no advantage in Him and so I can't boast about my salvation except boast to the Lord and be grateful for what He's given me. What I see in Romanism and I'm not necessarily assuming that you're on the same page with the church but you know there's 26 volumes in the Journal of Discourses.

Nobody knows what's in them. Bring me on. I didn't know what was in them but what I see in there is I see a version of the gospel that leaves us with people to devote without anything. You know somebody can say hey uh you know take a sacrament for example.

I'm sure you've seen at some point somebody is the the water and the what is it wafer that you guys it's bread just bread. Yeah this starts getting passed down and you see that one person that just takes the tray and just passes it to the person next to them.

That is an occasion for people to pray. Similarly you can have things like uh oh I've done so many baptisms for the dead I've done. I've been sealed in the temple. I've had many baptisms. I'm a return missionary.

I don't know if you've noticed but it is hard for a man to get a date if he's not a return missionary in Provo. If you came home early that is so funny. I didn't know that oh it's true like you're single forever if you came home early but and that's that's kind of what we're talking about.

Like the problem that we have with Mormon church is not that they don't serve water instead of really really awful wine I'm sorry I we use the box stuff. TMI. It's terrible. I can't help it. The problem is like it's a secondary kind of stuff.

The problem is they've given.

You a version of God that is lesser than what he really is. A God who became God instead of being one for all eternity. A God who is the Father but not also the Son and Holy Spirit. One who is close enough that he could after a thousand years attain to his glory.

I've read a bunch of really good verses for the fact that there's one God. There are also verses where he says I am God and there is none like me. There's none like me. Not just that there are no other gods but there's really nobody that can be like me.

But under Mormonism in a thousand years there's going to be all sorts of gods that could be compared to according to according to. Yeah. What were you going to say? I was simply going to say I tend to agree with those a lot of flaws with their people in the church.

They're not they're not they're not they're not they're not. There's just so many different. There's not a slab of sludge in the road that ultimately doesn't prove it's not allowed. And it doesn't prove it's closer to God.

Personal Testimony, the Gospel, and the Book of Romans

Let me ask you a personal question that you're of course free to not answer. If you've been through everything you say you've been through, what led you to your current beliefs? What led you to your current view of God?

Well, there are a couple different ways to go about answering this because, you know, I grew up in a family that believes the same things that I've just described.

Are you referring to what the LDS Church has had?