Acts 13:48, Cornelius, and Other Topics

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three -three -four -one and now with today's topic here is
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James white Yeah, actually I was considering declaring it a camping -free zone.
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I Gotta admit. I'm a little tired of the topic. There is no two ways about it, especially
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Given that there's been this strong temptation so many times Even doing iron sharpens iron today.
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There were a couple times. I just wanted to talk over somebody and go. Excuse me Excuse me, excuse me, then turn them down and then say but thank you for calling and sharing, but I didn't do that.
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So Anyway, but I'm not going to go that direction today right now. Anyway, we will see if folks end up calling in on that but We have all sorts of other things to be discussing on the program today.
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I Posted on the blog the fact that I have in my hand right now the voluminous the massive the large the filled with a lot of really silliness book and by Gail Rippling er
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Let's see. Where's the last there's a lot of advertised 1203 pages long it's fairly large print and and actually could have been made a lot smaller, but Anyway still a lot of a lot of work sadly goes into this and oh man, there's some wild stuff and I really haven't had a chance to To deal much with it
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But I opened it up to her attack on Kenneth Weiss Kenneth Weiss was one of my father's
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Greek professors at Moody Bible Institute back in the 50s and There's a lot of anti -calvinism stuff in there.
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I may may get around a little later on to Reading a couple of the the comments, but yeah, we'll see but I do have queued up a clip that I discovered
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I rich finally I guess decided to go to the post office box after I don't know a month or something and So he comes walking in this morning with a bunch of stuff
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From the post office box and Bunch stuff off the ministry resource list actually and one of those things was a gale rippling his book and then another of those things was the series from Catholic answers and specifically
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Tim Staples on Purgatory and I've told you I've contacted Tim and he said he's going on vacation.
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So maybe he's maybe he's back now. I'm not sure but I gave him the URL to my discussion of his comments on first Corinthians chapter 3 and And so we had put on the ministry resource list his presentation on purgatory and Fellow back.
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I think in Georgia bought it for us and sent it sent it to the post office box. And so I was
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Putting it into iTunes so I can transfer it to my new nano and put that on high speed and listen to the whole thing while writing well there's
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I don't know how they did this but They have basically each track name on the
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CD is the first I don't know five six seven words of whatever Tim is saying in that track
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Which is interesting. I would seem to be rather take a long time a lot of work to be very labor -intensive
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But anyway, that's what it was and I see my name as one of the track track memes
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James White of alphanumeric so I pop it up and And Lo and behold, he's he's trying to respond to something
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I said in the Roman Catholic controversy So I thought hey, all right We'll cue that one up it's it's so When the other side actually tries to respond to something you know, we work so hard to try to get our
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Roman Catholic friends and Mormon friends and just all sorts of folks. It's actually, you know interact and give and take and debate and stuff like that But yeah
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So before we do all of that, however before we jump into the Tim Staples clip and maybe some
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Hazardous materials from from rippling that's what's called. It's called hazardous. Hey, wait a minute
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Wow Just like New Age Bible versions one place on the entire cover and it's on the cover.
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It's only on the spine It says GA rippling her. No, no author on the front No author on the back
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Just GA rippling her again. I was trying to hide the fact that she is a twice divorced woman so there you that's how you sell books and Independent fundamental
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Baptist churches that are King James only that allow her to preach from the pulpit which is really an interesting thing to It's always fun
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Anyhow, let's go ahead and clear the the board here real quick and then we'll jump into the
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Tim Staples stuff Let's talk with Kyle. Hi Kyle Doing good good good.
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Hey, well, I was a recent reformed convert from Norman Geisler So I guess thanks to Norman and thanks for your responding
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So that that's that got me over the edge So you read that you read Norm stuff and then found out somebody responded to it.
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Yeah, there you go, you know I'm sure that Norm just loves to hear those testimonies, too
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You bet. Well, anyway, my my deal is this I've grown up in a conservative anti -baptist
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Church which did a very good job of preaching repentance and conversion and and But they are in a
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Baptist and so they're not reformed. And so today by God's grace Respond to the message they sent forth and and and so I've been trying to talk to people just inside church
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Trying to introduce them to the doctrines of grace. And and of course, you know, as you know, the response is not always
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Very good. And so no, I've never had anyone respond to anything. I've ever said about that.
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Yeah. Yeah And so it's just I've gotten accused of being I'm causing disunity or or been cautioned there
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And I recognize that the New Testament Cautions, you know that to to you know, mark those which cause divisions and separate yourself and so this speaks very clearly that we ought not to You know
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To cause division. I guess I'd say it but and so where's the line between figuring out?
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How much to say or what to how to handle the unity issue? In line with with trying to put forth good theology because I I think our church is a very good job of following scripture
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But but this one area is just significantly lacking Yeah, well, you might find some folks to chat with On a personal level over at the founders ministries because they have to deal with that all the time.
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That's the the primary area that You know when you talk to folks the founders
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Conventions and meetings you talk to all sorts of folks that are struggling with that very issue, but obviously if on a
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Confessional level the church has as a part of its statement of faith or You know as Anabaptists that may not even be a statement of faith
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Since you kept using that term Anabaptist. I'm assuming I guess I hope that's the right term I mean, I don't
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I guess I don't know what we call our name is apostolic Christian and we do have a statement of faith And it doesn't it doesn't come down real clearly just because it doesn't cover the man
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So it covers salvation through Christ alone And it goes all the all the standard statement of faith, but doesn't cover the the depravity of man
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And so which obviously, you know seriously lacking But so I guess
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I don't know where I fit in there But I thought in a Baptist just credo baptism instead of pedo baptism So, I don't know where that fits in but but yeah apostolic
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Christian Church, that's that's interesting because A lot of Is that part of the apostolic
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Christian Church of America? Yeah, I think so interesting interesting I'm looking at looking at the website right now, in fact, and so there is a statement of faith on this and So, yeah, it's fairly yeah, okay, so you have a statement of universal
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Atonement in the fifth point of the state of faith and Let's see faith which results in repentance beginning
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At least there's repentance in there. That's good Spiritual rebirth, but of course that's on the basis of faith and repentance
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Baptism by baptism of faith by immersion is father -son Holy Spirit, okay
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Well, it's not There's there's a fair amount here, but they're oh, this is interesting of head coverings
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Yeah, I guess I don't know where I come down on that. I've seen both sides and I think I could
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Get it too long. It's like way off topic to ask about that. Well not well, maybe but I'll admit it's not my
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Prime primary area of of expertise. I mean, I I know some even reformed
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Baptists that have head coverings I I understand the text to be in the context of Corinth and the need for head coverings there because of certain cultic practices amongst the people but Others see it as a as something that has continuing validity today.
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It's it's not something I've spent a whole lot of time on but Basically since we've got a bunch of calls coming in real real fast for some reason
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Let's put it this way There there comes a time when you have to make a decision between the desire and the need for consistent biblical teaching and Emotional connections to a church that a person has been a part of for a long period of time
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Basically, I Think if you're in a church that by its confession
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Says we are not reformed that you shouldn't be seeking to try to change that now,
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I would suggest sitting down with the elders and and asking
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You know some serious questions asking for some some Interaction on the biblical text, but my experience has been in the vast majority of instances there eventually comes a point where there's basically said well, you know, that's not where we're going and You really can't you really shouldn't be promoting this within within the fellowship and and at that point,
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I think that there needs to to be a Acceptance of that. I don't think you need to be, you know sticking
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Portions of Calvin's Institutes in the in the hymnals or something like that, you know, and and what that eventually leads to of course is to you finding a fellowship where there is a
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Consistency on these issues because it's not a side issue. It will determine for example
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So many things that the nature of worship Not only the nature of the of the message preached but responses to tragedy
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Suffering death. I mean there's just so many places that it ends up impacting things and you're always feeling like well
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Can I say anything about that? Well, I guess I can't For me, especially it just wasn't possible to Remain in a situation like that.
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I had to find a place where there was consistency. And so I am NOT a church hopper and and I think that a person has to have a really really really good reason
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To leave the fellowship of a church and so that's why I would first sit down with the elders and talk about these things
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But once once that has happened and there is a clear understanding a clear indication that well as the elders
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This is where we're going Then I think honesty just requires us to find fellowship where those those things are believed as a group
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Difficult thing as far as what you know, what does love require as far as stick around for my brother? What does love require as far as my family?
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And so it's just between that and yeah And well, I think I think love also would require you to be straight up front and and and to and to not
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Make them feel like they're constantly having to watch every every word that you say, you know something along those lines
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So sure, I don't think you know I think you are showing love for someone by Recognizing that their authority in that church is such that you would not seek to overthrow it sure
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No, and that's and that's my heart in it. And then real quickly Just take a second but in talking with people there's been a lot of times where people will throw out the the very common text and there's they'll have a lot of them and Just a resource for looking at good at exegetical data of each of the tough versus quote -unquote and and Trying to get some sort of resource that would provide me with with That data what could you recommend any or what would you know?
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I'm assuming that you mean beyond what is available in the potter's freedom because I love that if I could get that for you know,
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I wish there was an entire study Bible that was written with those You know, well, I mean the
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Reformation study Bible and the ESV study Bible is fairly reformed as well
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I don't all I the only form I have that it is on my blackberry and I really haven't spent much time with it
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But I've been told that the notes they're fairly fairly good as well But I do have that and I like it
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It just it doesn't go very in -depth and right and a lot of times the explanations aren't as good as what you had in your potter's freedom, yeah, well
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The I don't know of a single book that just simply You know goes through the various proof texts that can be used.
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I think that What I try to do in the potter's freedom and in my books the
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God Sovereign Grace and drawn by the Father is to teach people to reason in such a way that when they encounter text they can detect where the
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The ice of Jesus is taking place So, you know your your good reformed commentaries, you know might be places to go there
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But I don't know what else I would recommend to you I mean other than the the standard works on the subjects that that address the various issues like Anything from you know, the sovereignty of God through R .C
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Sproul's the materials and and things like that John Piper's book on Romans 9 the justification of God I mean those are fairly in -depth resources.
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Sure. Yeah, no, and it's just a matter of paging through and I maybe this is a tribute to My laziness, but it's just a matter of paging through and finding the best one and piling it all together
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But maybe that's a good practice for me Indeed. All right. Thank you. Kyle. Yep. Thank you. All right. God bless.
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Bye. Bye Eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one lots of calls today.
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Let's talk with Dan. Hi, Dan Hi, dr. White. Yes, sir
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Good Yeah, this is my first time calling and I just want to say I've been listening to your show and I appreciate your ministry and Certainly the work that you've been doing.
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Thank you Sure, I wanted to talk to you about act 1348 This is actually something
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I've been talking to a certain fan about and he actually recommended that I call in But I'm sure you know the passage actually the second half the verse says it and as many as were ordained to eternal life belief
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Mm -hmm and so I guess the way I understand it is Calvinist kind of look at this passage and say it's an eternal decree of predestination and then
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Non -Calvinist will look at it and say one of two things Either they'll argue for a different translation as opposed to ordain
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They'll want to argue for disposed as many as were disposed to eternal life belief And in that case, it's moved away from God doing it to sort of a state of mind or something like that and the other non -Calvinist interpretation be
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To say the translation is fine and agree that it's God doing it but look at it more as a matter of pervading pervenient grace and like in this case would be
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Some folks had successful Successful process of pervading grace where they're brought brought to the point where they're ready to believe or something like that And so I've looked
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I've looked up the passage and look up a bunch of commentaries and stuff like that and I found a couple Reasons I think move away from the
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Calvinist interpretation to the to the non -Calvinist view and I wanted to see if I could Get your thoughts on them.
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Sure, but I'll go ahead and I guess the first one is just The word for ordained
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I guess is Pazzo and both the word and the tense itself really have never been used for for predestination anywhere else in the
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Bible And the tenth the pluperfect is is an unusual one for predestination
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So I was that was one of the first ones that I wanted to see if see what you thought about Well as I mentioned in the debates
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I've done on this and in the in the books that I've written and addressed this One of the one of the problems. Do you read
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Greek? Okay, well if you do then, you know that It's fascinating to me.
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Even may the commentaries fall into a real basic trap at this point that is is troubling especially when you find it in publications, but Tasso is not alone.
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Tasso is part of a phrase. It's part of a periphrastic construction a son to talk Menoy and people
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Just just completely missed that when I debated Steve Gregg on the subject He did the same thing with Tasso running around looking at various uses of Tasso sometimes he wouldn't even look at how
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Luke used it or anything along those lines and the fact the matter is it is
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In a periphrastic construction that has a particular understanding to it a particular Tense understanding to it because of the periphrastic construction
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So when people just just focus on Tasso and forget that a son is sitting there and that makes it a a periphrastic instruction
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Then they're just not reading the text very very carefully. That's why I would think most people when they look at a text would go, you know
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I wonder why so many of the major Translations all render it in the same way and Steve Gregg said well as a you know
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It was a King James and they were influenced by the Vulgate and blah blah blah well, that's all nice, but the reality is the reason that the vast majority of committee done translations
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Whatever their theological bent render it this way is because that's what it means So the to say that well, this isn't the term for predestination.
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Well, nobody says it is I don't know any I Suppose there might be some cow was out there I'm not one of them that goes this as some major proof text what it is is a demonstration that that the that Luke Has no problem in just simply in passing recognizing the absolute sovereignty of God in this matter of belief and There is no question the idea of those who were disposed and things like that that's the
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New World translation that and that's the level of of that it just simply does not deal with the facts as the
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As Luke would use these terms as if they somehow disposed themselves that assumes
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So many things that have no foundation in the rest of what Luke has written in his own use of Paraphrastics and Tasso and so on so forth.
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So it says they had been appointed to eternal life and as a result of that They believed and and so he doesn't expand upon this this is not a text like John 6 or Ephesians 1 or Romans 9 where the specific topic is the eternal decree of God in regards to human salvation, but it is one of those texts where you see the just the the worldview the the ease of understanding of the inspired writer in recognizing that When the
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Gentiles heard this message There was a response, but it wasn't because some of these
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Gentiles were better than other Gentiles It wasn't because some of these Gentiles were more spiritual or less sinful or whatever
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We might want to insert in there the reason that there were certain ones who believed and others who did not is because they had been appointed to eternal life and as a result they believed and I think we have to go elsewhere for the mechanics of that But I I think that most of the effort that has been invested in attempting to Get around the text
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Has been misplaced because the text says what it says and It doesn't provide much in the way of commentary but It is quite consistent with what is taught on the subject in in other contexts.
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Okay. Well, let me see if I understand Okay, so the the reference to were ordained to eternal life
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You believe that's talking about Internal predestination or not Well, yeah,
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I think it is but I don't think that that's the subject of of of the text That's the text is just simply narrating what happened and Luke is in using this language is demonstrating that he believed that the reason that that the reason that Lydia Responds and others do not is why because the
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Lord opens her heart. Why do these Gentiles believe while others mock? It's because they have been appointed to eternal life
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Okay, and so that was that that that's the specific question is the so if that is a reference to predestination
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Is it the only one in the New Testament with that word and in that sense? Well Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean, it's just a passing reference. It's not it's not I mean, it's just simply it's just simply a simple way of speaking of ordination to something in a periphrastic construction
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Luke Uses a primarily classical style of Greek he's not trying to discuss the subject of predestination
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It is a reference to it. It is a reference to the fact that that's the result of it But it's not meant to be a synonym or something because that's not what he's discussing at this point in time
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No, I understand so it is it is unique or it would be the only one in its case but okay, so it kind of It's on top of the narrative the historical narrative it's kind of a comment on top so I get that yeah
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It's not meant that's not the subject. The subject is not to discuss predestination or anything else
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It's just simply reflective of the fact that Luke recognized that those who believed did so for a specific reason
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It wasn't that they were better than somebody else. It's just this is Luke's recognition of that Thing we call the sovereignty of God.
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That's that's how I understand it. Yes, okay All right, so then I guess that leads right into the next question is which is
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The phrase I guess is a periphrastic Pluperfect basically because you join the to be very with the participle for Tazzo.
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So long story short my understanding is you get the timing of Periphrastic pluperfect or pluperfect in general from the actual context but Predestination or eternity past or whatever isn't in the actual context and There is stuff that actually is going on in the context of preaching of the gospel and their reception of it well the context the context obviously is the hearing of The gospel by the
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Gentiles as specifically announcement that the gospel is going out to the Gentiles Followed by the fact they began rejoicing and glorifying the
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Lord and as many has been appointed It's it's just simply a matter of the appointment takes place prior to the belief.
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It's Again, it's not the subject of this of the text to try to say and this took place in eternity past There's that's that's taught very plainly in the
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New Testament, but that's not what Luke's trying to communicate at this point Okay, so it's a timing of a pluperfect is based on something within the historical narrative and eternity past isn't in the historical narrative
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But other events are why wouldn't we look to those other events first? I just did You're not listening to me.
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I Just said that the statement that is made is that when they hear they believe now the appointment comes before their belief
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Now if you want to come up with some New Testament teaching that God appoints people outside of his eternal decree fine, but that's not the subject of the of the
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Of the text so if you want to if you want to come up with something else and read into that fine
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But we have to go to the other place where you're you're coming up with that consideration The New Testament teaches that that choice is in eternity past.
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And so I'm I'm just being consistent in In in seeing it that way, but I'm not saying that this text is talking about eternity past or anything else
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It's just Luke's recognition that God's appointment is what resulted in their belief.
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That's okay So when they were ordained, I guess I would look for the timing in the first half of the verse
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When the Gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord So I would think that the ordaining took place then and why would you think that God acts in time like that?
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Because he works in our hearts in our lives. He draws us with his spirit and things like that So you you you do believe that God that God's ordination is what results in a person's belief?
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So why didn't why didn't he ordain the other Gentiles? Why do you only during ordain these ones? well,
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I guess if you look at Tazzo as Sort of an arranging like if you take the word ordain, it could be understood in one of two ways
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It could mean kind of a predetermined sense Which would be more along the Calvinistic line or it could be more of a range or ordering or something like that Putting it into a position
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So long story short If you work look at it from the viewpoint
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I was talking about of pervenient grace I Can't go there because that's not a biblical phrase.
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You'd have to show that to me Okay. Well, do you understand that the concept of pervading? Of course? I do. Of course,
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I don't know it I well know what the theological construct is. I just don't believe in it. There's no such thing
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God's grace God's grace actually saves it doesn't try to save and fail So I just haven't encountered this this quote -unquote prevenient grace
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It's given to everybody that makes them sort of a moral neutral agent and enables them and all the rest of stuff
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I'm well aware of the the concept. I just don't find it in the Bible Okay God teaching maybe that that's in the
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Bible quite a bit Yeah, the problem is that God teaches in John 6 45 and that's he drawn the ones he teaches are those that he actually raises
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Up, it's those that he draws. It's the it's the Learn that he draws up not this that he teaches
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I'm sorry. What in John 6 45? It says that learn It says what?
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No, no, no. No, sir. You are you are incorrect there It has been written in the prophets.
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They shall all be taught by God. That's God teaching okay, as everyone hearing from the father and mothone that would that is the the concept of The the moth a taste the disciple so That is reason the result of God's teaching not what comes before God's teaching
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You just just reverse the order Well, what's it saying Jesus is explaining in John 6 45 what he said in John 6 44 that no one can come to me
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That's the father sent me draws him and I'll raise him up on the last day The one who is drawn is the one who is raised up on the last day
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Why is that because even as the scriptures are taught as it is written in the prophets They they those that are being drawn will all be taught of God.
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That is something God does This is this is a revelation of God this is describing more fully the nature of this drawing that God is doing and so everyone then
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Hearing from the father and learning is coming to me So he's coming to me John 6 37 all the father gives me
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John 6 45 the one hearing and learning from and how do they Hear and learn because God is drawing them.
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God has taught them. That's it's all divine and we respond That's that's that's why by the end of the discussion at John 6 65, you know
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Jesus keeps saying and you can't come to me unless it's been granted by my father and they turn around walk away They're offended by that, right?
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Okay, so God Draws and teaches and man comes and learns
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Well, every one who hears from the father and learns is coming to me everyone every single one everyone that learns
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Yes, everything one that those are those who are who are the drawn They are the ones given by the father to the son if you start at John 6 37 and walk all the way through it is
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Not my hearing and my choosing to hear or my choosing to learn
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That determines whether I come Jesus said all the father gives me will come to me very same
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Greek phrase as will come to me at the end of 6 of 45 so if you follow that straight through then the only way for you to be consistent with John 6 is to recognize that this hearing and that's the
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That's a that's a active Participle the same type is believing in the in in the preceding portions of John 6 the one hearing from the father and Learning from the father.
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That's what the drawing is is the one coming to me? So this is just a description of what that drawing is. So anyway, that's the reason
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Dan that That I'm being consistent. I've never said
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I have never asserted that Acts 13 48 as just a single phrase is
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Containing just you know Everything the Ephesians one says or Romans 9 says but it does say that the reason that these individuals
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Believed was because they were appointed now if you want to for some reason say that they were appointed
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Because at that point in time they rejoiced Or or whatever else it might be
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You know, I guess you're free to say that I don't see any reason to believe that that's that's the problem with that But then we've got a bunch of other folks.
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I'm afraid who are calling in today We got to get to them. So thank you very much for your call today on that interesting subject
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We're just gonna I guess keep moving on here We've got got too many people to get to here.
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So We've already had the Jared on hold for 22 minutes. Let's talk with Jared. Hi Jared.
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Hi, dr. White. How are you? Um, I was calling in with a question about federal vision actually
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I understand you had a Debate with Douglas Wilson or that issue. I just recently
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Became into contact with federal vision I just recently found out about within the last few weeks and found out quite by accident from that ever accurate place called a
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Wikipedia noted that you were a an opponent of federal vision, so I guess my my two questions are
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What is in your view from what you have been able to? Ascertain and discern, what is federal vision and what is
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Is there a radio or something in the background There's something you know what there's something in the next room.
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Oh, let me turn it off. Okay. All right Yeah, that would be helpful because it's sort of making it hard to have you have you on.
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Okay. Yes So so what is it? And what was the second part? What parts about it do you do you take issue with and what is in your opinion perhaps
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Unscriptural or unbiblical about the federal vision controversy Well, the debate
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I have with Doug Wilson was was rather focused on on Roman Catholics, well, yes, but it was
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Illustrative of one of the primary problems with the federal vision and that is the
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The idea of grabbing someone by their baptism. It is a as I see
34:20
Federal visionism at least is how it was five years ago. Now every movement grows and changes
34:26
I Sense it has not been something. I have just been spending a lot of time on but I I sense that there has been a fair amount of Divergence Amongst even the federal visionists themselves in the brief period of time that This movement has had that title.
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I believe it got that title at the 2001 Auburn Avenue pastors conference,
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I think was really what sort of launched it and at that particular conference
35:01
One of the one of the speakers Was Trying to remember the man's name
35:09
Schlissel Mr. Schlissel Delivered a sermon where he really went after He talked about for example
35:19
Martin Luther's statement the justification is the article the standing or falling church and he just he just mocked
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I said that's ridiculous It's absurd and It's interesting that a lot of the federal visionists come to many the same conclusions that the new
35:32
Perspectivists do but they're not new perspectivists. They get there from a very different route. They they are in some ways somewhat hyper sacramental
35:40
And almost hyper confessional they take a view of Even the
35:47
Westminster Confession of Faith that that many others would say is an inappropriate Understanding but basically what what they were emphasizing was and what we debated was this idea that Trinitarian baptism joins you to the new covenant and therefore to evangelize a
36:03
Roman Catholic is to Grab him by his baptism to an essence say by your
36:09
Trinitarian baptism You have been joined to this covenant and therefore you need to be faithful to this because God's going to judge you on the basis of your faithfulness this new covenant my argument against Doug Wilson was that Roman Catholicism is not even a
36:24
Christian religion And so it's baptism whether it be in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit or not is irrelevant without the gospel
36:32
Baptism is is merely an external symbol But wouldn't we as Reformed Baptists believe that it is regeneration and not baptism that that combines us to the of course.
36:41
Yes Yes, most most definitely. Yeah a federal visionism Can't really have any impact on Reformed Baptists by by by our statement of faith the 1689 would really preclude
36:52
Any of the perspectives any of the approach because of our view of the New Covenant? and a number of other issues along the way, but you know
37:02
Doug Wilson is is probably one of the least radical of The federal visionists there are others who've gone much farther than then he's gone
37:11
And that's one of the real real problems Is that it seems that federal visionism has become somewhat of an open doorway for a number of Presbyterians to move into a more liberal?
37:21
stance of new perspectivism because new perspectivism comes to me in the same conclusions about the nature of justification moving it out of the soteriological realm and into the
37:30
Ecclesiastical realm that N .T. Wright and others have come to but they come to it from a position of a much more liberal view of Scripture Than the federal visionists do and and I still see to this day a lot of people just lumping the two together because well
37:44
I see some similarities you can't do that there. There is a difference Between the two of them, but did you get a chance to listen to the debate with with Doug Wilson?
37:54
I did yes I put yeah, okay. All right. That's three times. Okay. Yeah, so and I'm and the reason I'm calling is because From what
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I got from the debate was that federal vision is so much wider so much more broad than just the topic at hand
38:06
Yeah, it was yeah, it is and and It's a little you know
38:12
Debates have to have some focus or they'll never get anywhere So there has there have been a number of critiques of federal visionism that you might want to get hold of I think probably the primary one that most people would direct you to is the work of guy waters.
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I think it's w a TT ERS on federal visionism That's probably going to give you the the fullest response.
38:34
But again, it's very difficult to critique the movement because there are so many Different levels to it and people come and come at it from so many different perspectives
38:44
I mean Steve Schlissel's position is significantly different in on a number of points as far as I can see than Doug Wilson's is and so Unfortunately, you have to sort of go.
38:56
Well, whose version are we talking about here? All right, and so it's
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It's not as big of an issue as as it was a few years ago when it first came out A lot of people really focused upon it
39:10
But I think both it and new perspectivism remain Important issues to be aware of because they tend to find audiences within seminaries
39:19
And so if you're you find it, you know, you're freshly minted seminary professor Talking about stuff and it's like well, that's something sounds weird here.
39:28
Then that's that's unfortunately where a lot of this stuff becomes Multiplied and promulgated and so on so forth is it it is it on in some ways is attractive on a quote -unquote scholarly level so that's very very frequent one thing that I did notice about federal vision in the specific context of what their view of the
39:47
Covenant is is that they only believe in that the goddess had two covenants throughout history the first pre fall and the second was post fall and thus the new covenant is
39:58
If I understand it right is in their view is merely an extension an extension a perhaps a better extension or a climax
40:06
I think was the word Steve Wilkins used. Yeah and that I Just don't see how they how they how any
40:16
Reformed a person you can't can really believe that. Well, you're touching you're touching on the very area where You know, everyone could tell that if we'd really wanted to do that debate up right we would have done one night on the issue of baptism and then the next night on federal vision because We're touching on the very issue of the nature of the new covenant and that for people who know these issues
40:43
And and unfortunately a lot of people do not but but for people who know these issues they know that the real issue between Reformed Baptist and Presbyterians and others has to do with the nature of the new covenants and As a result the
40:59
Covenant signs It's not about modes or things like that. If you really want to get into the subject, that's where you've got to be going and so that's why this has primarily been within Presbyterian circles where this battle has been fought
41:14
It basically is yeah and that's why the
41:19
PCA and OPC and everybody else has had to write statements on things like that Reformed Baptist haven't because it's just not confessionally possible to to go there because of our view of the
41:29
Covenant, but My Reformed Presbyterian friends. We got it, right a long time ago
41:36
I'm just I'm just going for my president anyway for all my Presbyterian friends in the channel to have a heart attack right there, but Have you did you hear the debate that I that I did with with Bill Shishko on this on the subject of It's in my laptop,
41:52
I've I'm on my fourth time list. Okay. Well, you know and Bill is a strong opponent Visionism and so You get the sense there were some of the primary issues are
42:07
In in dealing with this issue is is saying that that he and I would debate on that issue, but he and I together would oppose federal visionism in its various forms, especially when it starts resulting in a compromise on the doctrine of justification historically this actually goes back to can be traced in some of its forms to the
42:32
Northern Presbyterian Southern Presbyterian splits as well because you can find some statements in Charles Hodge Representing a more northern
42:40
Presbyterian perspective that would be more amenable to the for the federal vision perspective your southern
42:46
Presbyterians Would be opposed to that. So it's it's in some ways a sort of a resurrection of that Division and some of the issues related to it
42:56
But guy Prentice waters is the guy you want to look up and it is actually W a TRS not
43:02
TT but he's going to give you probably the widest range of citations of The federal visionists themselves so you can get a sense of how wide the movement itself is, right?
43:15
I'm looking at a list of those who oppose federal vision theology. It's quite a Massive list
43:22
To Ligon Duncan to RC Sproul to Guy Waters the American MacArthur to and your name's on it as well.
43:28
Yeah oh, yeah, there's no question that it elicited a strong response as it needed to but Unfortunately, not a lot of people ended up really interacting, you know
43:40
Like in in a debate where you can in fact to be honest with you I got I got a bloody nose with a lot of folks for even having dared to debate
43:48
Doug Wilson in other words it There's this odd attitude amongst many people that you just shouldn't do that kind of thing and So so on the one hand
44:00
I've been criticized because I'm not willing to throw Doug Wilson under the bus and banish him from it from heaven And on and on the other hand
44:09
I've gotten people who you know won't invite me to speak at conferences because I I Dared to debate
44:15
Doug Wilson that makes me a loose cannon So, I don't know, you know, I I just muddle along and we just do our thing and leave the rest
44:23
Understand I've been considered anathema anathema because of my opposition to pedo -baptism.
44:29
So I Like to point out that I have never done one of those debates that I was not challenged to do
44:36
We never went to somebody else and said let's debate this subject It's always been someone's come to me and said let's just debate the subject
44:43
And in fact just a couple days ago. I was asked well, why don't we do that in Australia that subject in Australia?
44:49
I'm like, you know, I mean if I have to but I really that's not
44:55
I've said my piece and we make it available and I think it's clear and I leave it to people to look at and it's
45:01
Just not something that I'm really all that excited about You know making a hallmark of what
45:06
I do because I've got some very very dear Presbyterian brothers as well. So Yeah, you know
45:12
So anyway, all right, Jared, thank you for your call. Thank you. Dr. Wright. I appreciate it. God bless
45:19
All right, boy, the phones are a hopping today I got we may not even get to because I mean I've got a five minute and 20 minute clip from Tim Staples I don't think we're gonna we're gonna get there.
45:28
But anyways, let's talk with Daniel hi Daniel. Hi, how's it going? It's going pretty good so, um
45:35
Just intro to where I'm coming from I've been a Calvinist for about eight nine months now and I can't stage okay
45:41
Yes. Yeah, so I'm trying to not be annoying to you know to my parents who you know, don't believe in this and So I'm trying to restrain myself, but so I'm still the process of looking at certain verses they okay, you know back in the day
45:55
I'd used to transfer the verses like this and so I'm still in the process of you know
46:01
Reformatting myself as I understand. It's it's a long process. Yeah. Yeah, Matthew 23 37 took me a while I thank you for your your video on that.
46:10
Okay, um, but I was recently I was doing a study through acts and acts 10 from Cornelius Inverted and it talks about in verse 2.
46:19
He's a you know, devout man. He feared God, you know, he prayed God continually and In the inverse for the angel says you can kind of like the reason that this is happening
46:29
So your prayers and alms have descended before God, but in Acts 11 14 when
46:36
Peters are counting these things the angel said to Cornelius, you know
46:41
Peter will speak words to you by which you will be saved Before this event.
46:46
What was the spiritual state of Cornelius? Well, I think it's very clear in in acts you have
46:54
Cornelius as one of the primary examples, but you also have References by Luke to the
47:00
God fearers who are found in the synagogues are not actually Jews They they have not been circumcised.
47:07
They've not gone through the rituals of conversion, but they are Gentiles who are attracted to monotheism they are attracted to the law of God the morality of the law of God things like that and so these are people who pray and Who are engaged in what we would call at least outwardly a righteous acts and you can view this really in either as just a example of common grace and the fact that God restrains and God prepares hearts or as a part of the preparation of the heart by the
47:42
Holy Spirit for those who as acts 1348 says were ordained eternal life would would believe but There's there's no question that there are not only people in the world who
47:58
Obviously behave better than others but when you ask the the question why well,
48:04
I think it's it's a matter of of grace and restraint because the scriptures say that the
48:10
Spirit of God restrains the evil of men and and I certainly believe in common grace.
48:15
That is that I'm awful thankful for the the gifts that God gives to unregenerate men you know,
48:24
I'm thinking of how many times I you know, my father had surgery last year and His doctor was as I recall a
48:35
Hindu Well, I'm awfully glad that God gave certain gifts and abilities to Hindu doctors
48:43
Because without that then he would have been in trouble so there are all sorts of Activities of God's Spirit that that he gives gifts to men and and in so doing blesses his own people in the process, but Cornelius clearly is an individual who
49:01
Evidences a work of the Spirit within his life not in the sense of Regeneration because of what you read in Acts 11
49:08
He needed to have the gospel message preached to him the point that I think a lot of people miss in in Acts 10 11 is
49:16
That what Acts 10 11 is telling us is That you this pluralism that is such a plague in our world that or even the inclusivism that has become really the the ipso facto a view of the majority of Roman Catholics in the
49:33
Magisterium where your Acts of faith toward Whatever are enough to earn the salvation in Jesus Christ.
49:44
In fact, I even heard William Lane Craig I haven't played it yet, but I even heard William Lane Craig say that the the
49:50
Native American Indian who Believes in the
49:56
Great Spirit and believes himself to be a sinner against the Great Spirit and throws himself upon the mercy of the
50:02
Great Spirit Will receive salvation through Jesus Christ because that that represents
50:07
God to the Native American This is the concept of inclusivism well That should have been enough for Cornelius because you know
50:14
Here's someone who's from a worldly perspective is very religious and he's doing all the things that need to be done
50:20
He's even he's even doing so within the context of monotheism over against all the polytheism was around I mean he had all sorts of choices of bad religions that he could have been involved with but instead he he has been attracted to To the very revelation of God in in Jewish monotheism, but that wasn't enough
50:41
At this point Cornelius would before this event. He was not regenerate, but perhaps being led by the spirit
50:47
Towards God there is a there is clearly a preparatory work going on in the man's life
50:53
There's that that seems very very obvious because he has he has come to Judaism. He has he is
50:59
He's devout in in doing what he sees is His his duty and so what happens not because that makes him worthy or something, but God sends and a
51:14
Messenger who needs to have a a sheet dropped down three times and slapped upside the head and he still doesn't get it
51:19
To to bring him the gospel That those religious things he was doing were not enough there the gospel had to be proclaimed to him
51:30
And that's why Peter comes and does so so yeah, there's clearly it's it. I think in even evangelicalism there tends to be the idea that You've you've got either
51:43
That there can be no preparatory work there can be no period of time anybody who's read Spurgeon knows that that he gives testimony of Quite a period of preparation in his in his own life and many of the
51:57
Saints over the over the years have given testimony to that so And people can abuse that I realized that but there you have it right in the text the text tells us
52:07
He was doing these things and yet he had not yet heard the gospel and was not yet saved He did not have eternal life.
52:13
It's it's there We've got to accept all of it whether people will abuse parts of it or not. We just you know we can't help that That doesn't and I'm sitting here thinking about people that I know that Are so concerned that if you if you ever mention the possibility that there might be a time period involved
52:32
They want everything to be you know, just this Instantaneous type of a situation where you're railing against God and then boom you're you're a
52:42
God lover Well for some people that might happen that way But there have been many who have given testimony and Cornelius is
52:48
I think is a clear example where? God doesn't have to do that the same way with everybody all the time.
52:55
That's that's all there is to it So there you got it. All right. Well, thank you very much. All right. Thank you very much for your call.
53:01
God bless Well don't have time for the Tim Staples clip. I've got all these books sitting here, but I'll just leave them sitting here so that on Tuesday Well, I've been sitting in behind this microphone for so many hours this week
53:15
It's hard to remember what day it is. It just seems like all we do anymore is webcast. It does seem that We're done with this one, let's set up for the next one.
53:26
Well and gonna be doing it again tomorrow, but not with me on Because yeah, you you get a break this time.
53:33
I get a break this time. But the only way that we can that Chris can have camping on is if they use our stuff because I can guarantee
53:41
I've been a guest on Chris's show many times and There have been so many times I have sat there with a phone
53:48
Almost rammed into my ear plugging the other ear so I don't have even fan noises
53:53
So I can make out something of what the caller is saying. Well camping is not going to go there and so When Harold camping is on iron on iron sharpens iron tomorrow the phone number that people will be calling will be this one
54:07
To participate in that that program. So so do you think I should stream it? I wasn't planning on streaming that one.
54:14
Well, you know, it's up to you. I don't maybe I'll get some mail Well, yeah, that's just it
54:21
There's campings followers are just a very odd lot of people and they want to accuse people of everything in the
54:27
Sun We've been accused of trying to alter Harold's voice And and one guy got upset because there was hell would go over time
54:34
I would start clearing my throat because he obviously wasn't well see sometimes he was keeping time
54:39
Because he would stop before saying something but then other times he just He couldn't stop. Yeah, and so I would we'd open my mic and That's three minutes.
54:49
And of course, did I ever go over my time limit? Of course not I did not but that's because I had a timer so but there was static on his phone line and clearly you put it there
54:59
I must have you know, these these folks are conspiracy driven. And so they're you know, the I mean
55:04
I would love to do a public moderated debate With camping about something like the his two deaths of Christ theory or anything like that I mean it and and you'd have the same thing happening that we had in the second
55:18
Oh, we know that Jesus spoke in parables and that's just that's just That's as far as you can go and then he's gonna go off to his own his own little hermeneutic and and start playing with The Bible there.
55:30
So yeah, that's that's that's how it works Anyway, so tomorrow during iron sharpens iron when you hear them saying eight seven seven seven five three three three four one then you'll know what actually is going on and That that we're using our facilities so that so that Harold camping can hear
55:47
So, you know what while we have we've got a little time to kill here I would like to mention to folks that we definitely need to have
55:56
AOM in collars into this program. We we need to have some people who
56:02
Pre -prepare some good questions for Harold and we'll call in here.
56:07
Let's use this to God's glory and Get some good callers that will challenge him because this time around he doesn't get to control the mute button
56:16
Yeah, you know in listening to all the hours of open forum that I listened to over the past a couple weeks
56:24
I Could tell that there are people out there I think even groups of people Who call into the open forum now some of them are way off in in the weeds someplace like the the whole group one day
56:34
It called about whether Jesus was the person on the white horse or whether that's the Antichrist But I can just tell that there are a lot of people who call in they say hi brother camping there
56:44
They're not belligerent, but they are clearly asking their questions To attempt to demonstrate his inconsistencies
56:52
They don't come back They they don't they don't come back and say oh see I got you there something like that But I can tell that there are a fair number of people now
57:02
There are others who just simply call into the Harold camping because he's their Pope. He's he is their
57:08
Holy Spirit He's their Pope. He's their answer. You know I they've they've just signed their brains over to Harold camping and They're just gonna sit there and Oh brother
57:19
Harold just has such an insight and so I wonder what he thinks about this And oh, that's what it means.
57:25
Oh, you know and it's sad. It's so pitiful. It truly is pitiful but there are others who call and I can just tell that they're throwing something out
57:35
I see the campings response is inconsistent, and I guess their idea is maybe somebody else well
57:41
And so it is it and I don't think Harold even notices that those He just gives his answer and says it's about the church age goes on from there, so Interesting stuff, but anyway on Tuesday Maybe we'll be able to look at some of the gale rippling or stuff and and Tim stables
57:58
I didn't expect all the phone calls But they were good calls And they were important calls and so we wanted to get to them and we got them all in with just a couple minutes
58:04
To spare at the end so thanks for listening to dividing line I'm gonna enjoy a few days off even though I'm preaching this weekend, so my voice is getting a workout.
58:13
That's about it and Two weeks from tomorrow is when
58:18
I leave for Australia, so it's It's crunch time folks it truly truly is so thanks listening to the dividing line
58:25
Thanks for your prayers this week, and we will see you next week Lord willing on Tuesday till then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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