March 20, 2024 Show with Ken Powers on “Artificial Intelligence: One Christian Software Engineer’s Perspective”

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Introducing Ken Powers and Letts Church

I'm excited to have a first-time guest today, not only because he has a company that he founded that is truly fascinating that I intend to take advantage of and benefit from, but we're also going to be revisiting a topic that we've had at least twice, perhaps we've had it more times that I can't remember, on this program, the topic of artificial intelligence, more commonly known as AI.

We've had Christian folks who are set against this technology, artificial intelligence, and believe that it is nothing but bad news, that we are to avoid it at all costs, we are to seek to bring an end to it if we at all possibly can, through any means that we are able to do such a thing, and today's guest has a different spin on this topic, and I think it's wise to have members of the body of Christ who have different points of view on issues like this, especially that are non-salvific, be brought to light so that we can decide for ourselves when people who are very knowledgeable about a topic can disagree over it.

But today's guest is Ken Powers, a software engineer and founder of Letts Church, and his professional career in engineering over the last 11 years includes many projects such as Signal, the private messaging application, and who has experience in many technologies.

Today he's going to be addressing artificial intelligence, one Christian software engineer's perspective. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ken Powers.

Hi Chris, thank you for having me.

Well it's a joy to have you on the program, and tell us about Letts Church.

Transcript Search, Church Directory, and Salvation Testimony

Yeah, Letts Church is a company I founded. You can think of it as like a Christian alternative to YouTube more or less, free of charge, and there are no pre-roll ads or anything like that. But that's really only scratching the surface.

Everything uploaded to the platform is transcribed into text, and all the transcripts of everything uploaded are fully searchable. And so, say, for instance, all of Iron Sharpens Iron is uploaded on Letts Church right now, so you can look for, is that more on my brother?

For listeners who have no idea what that means, during one of my comedic introductions at one of the great debates on Long Island between Dr. James R. White and Roman Catholic apologists, I think this one may have featured Robertson Jennings as Dr. White's opponent, but I can't remember for certain.

But I said that James White had written a sequel to his book, Is the Mormon My Brother? And this book was titled, Is that Moron My Brother? And it was about me. It's just so our listeners understand what that even meant.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So if you actually go to Letts Church right now, it's at letts .church. You type in, is that moron my brother? And it'll pull up that exact moment. So yeah, all the transcript results come up with timestamps, and you can click on the result and it'll fast forward to exactly where that was said.

Very cool.

I'm also working on a church search and profiles feature right now. And so people will be able to find biblically faithful churches in their area and listen to all their sermons and search what topics they're interested in learning about all from the same interface and eventually even be able to ask AI questions like, hey, what does this church teach about total inability?

And it'll form an answer and give you all the timestamps and show you everywhere you need to go in each sermon to learn exactly what you're looking for.

Very cool. Now, do you have this church directory already up?

It is not up right now. The goal is to get it up by May.

OK, well, I know I'm going to be making use of that because even though I have a very faithful and detailed lists of solid churches all over the world, churches that I would visit and even join if I lived in those areas are on those lists.

There are still churches that have not yet been added to these lists that are excellent churches, and sometimes they're the only churches that are believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace in the areas where my listeners live who are requesting church recommendations.

And sometimes when I can't find a faithful congregation on those lists, I have to do some more searching, and sometimes I find churches that were listed nowhere. And after some further investigation and calling the pastor and so on, I find out that these are wonderful congregations.

So I am sure I'll be making use of the Let's Church directory.

Well, and Chris, I'll tell you this as well. It's being built with embedding in mind. So I'm building it in cooperation with TruthScript, John Harris's organization. And the idea is that you will be able to embed it into your website and only list the churches in the overall directory that are pre-approved by you, for instance.

So you can have your own Iron Sharpens Iron church search built right into your website and have all the same features, including the transcript search and everything, but for your listeners in churches that you know are solid.

Great. And once again, that website is Let's .Church. Let's .Church. Of course, there's no apostrophe in the URL for Let's .Church. And we will repeat that, God willing, later on in the program. Well, we have a tradition here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Whenever we have a first-time guest, that guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

Yeah, so my testimony is one that no doubt your listeners are familiar with in our day and age. By God's providence, I was raised in a Christian home. In my college years, I was basically wayward. I would have called myself a Christian, but looking back on it now, I recognize that I wasn't.

But after college and starting my professional career, I had a natural drawing. I knew I wanted to go to church, and eventually I got a flyer in the mail for a church plant in my area. Started going there, read through the Bible cover to cover for the first time, and like the word says, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ultimately decided, you know, if I'm going to call myself a Christian, I should start acting like it. And ever since then, I've been looking for opportunities to apply my skill set and my faith more broadly.

Great. And when did you actually believe that, and how specifically did you believe that you were a person at enmity with God, that needed a new heart, that needed to be rescued from not only your enslavement to sin and the consequences of being in rebellion against God, and so.

On?

Yeah, so all this would have been happening around 2013 -2014, around then.

Yes, and explain in detail what happened.

I mean, yeah, it's a very boring story. You know, it's hard to say, because it was over a very long period of time. There was no single aha moment, but I can tell you that when I was saved, it was just deciding, you know, like the outward manifestation of that is like, oh, well, you don't try to weasel out of stuff anymore, like you actually take responsibility for things you do.

No more swearing, you know, the external conformities, and obviously recognizing that these things aren't just like rules just to get by in life. But that, yeah, like this is, yeah, like you said, you're at enmity with God, and it's the outworking of faith that results in these good works that God ordained for us to walk in, and not the other way around.

Now, I may have not heard you, because I was distracted. A listener question came in already. Did you say what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in?

Yeah, I was in a broadly Protestant Christian home.

A broadly Protestant Christian home. What do you mean by that?

Nominal?

I would say more than nominal, but it wasn't like it wasn't Reformed Baptist or anything like that. It was just like the church itself would have said Protestant, but more than nominal.

Okay, and were you nurtured by your parents in the gospel, in the truths of Scripture? Did you view the Bible as an inerrant, the inerrant Word of God and so on?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so, like, you know, growing up, the church would talk about apologetics. My dad would tell me, you know, like, hey, we're Christians, so you don't do that, that kind of thing.

I remember coming home, getting in trouble at school for something I did, and my mom, you know, directed me, okay, like, let's pray about this, that kind of thing.

Okay, but obviously, that kind of thing could take place in nominal homes that just have.

All Oh, sure.

That have all-American, old-fashioned morality and so on. Like, I'm sure that if I wound up in the living room of Father Knows Best, if you even know what that is, it's a TV show going back to the 50s and 60s.

But that kind of wholesome, all-American kind of home could be as lost as the folks in a brothel, you know, but they have an etiquette and a respect for God, a reverence towards God, and perhaps the Bible, a Bible that they may never even read, but they have some kind of a respectful view of it, maybe have it on their coffee table or something.

But, so you believe that your parents were regenerate and born again and so on?

Yes, I believe that, yes.

Okay. Well, let's move on to our subject today. Our subject today is artificial intelligence, and this is your perspective as a Christian software engineer. And as you even said to me before we began the program, what is a working definition of artificial intelligence?

Because you have informed me that just like many things in this world, there are people who are totally misunderstanding what this even is or what it means, and they may be unnecessarily jumping to the wrong conclusions and becoming alarmists against it without really understanding what the design and intention of this is and what it actually is to begin.

With.

So if you could give us what you believe is a genuine definition of AI.

What AI Is and Why the Term Is Misleading

Yeah.

So the first thing to recognize is that AI is a broad term covering a number of technologies. The uniting theme is that these are essentially computer programs made to imitate intelligence on the computer.

But what you have to remember is like, let's say you're talking to chat GPT, one of these large language models out there. People are impressed and tend to think like, oh, it feels like I'm talking to a sentient being.

But what you're actually talking to is a pile of linear algebra that is just calculating lots of statistics on the fly and coming up with what words and tokens syllables should come after these words in the sentence.

And so you're talking to a very clever mathematical waterfall, but it's not actually thinking. And that's why I've never really been a fan of the term artificial intelligence, the intelligence part in particular, because there's a difference between knowledge and intelligence.

Right.

So a wall clock has knowledge of what time it is, but that wall clock would not be able to intuit or explain to you what that time actually means. That's kind of what it is when you're talking to these AI chatbots.

It has a lot of what we might call knowledge, but it's not actually sentient or thinking or anything along those lines. It's just statistics on a ticker coming up with all the next words that should come up in the sentence.

So what is it that you are under the impression that the opponents of AI and perhaps especially Christians who are opponents of AI, but even let's, you know, we can include non-Christians because there are, like even Elon Musk is very concerned about the advancement of AI and there are other people that are completely out of a Christian worldview.

What is the, what are the things that people are misunderstanding?

Common Misunderstandings About AI and Its Limits

Yeah, so what people are misunderstanding is, well, so there are many angles you could take about this. Like, you know, people might think of like Skynet this and have this like autonomous system that that's like taking over networks and that kind of thing and, you know, launching nukes and making sentient decisions.

But even the most, the most state of the art stuff we have right now, you know, it'll like browse the web and quote unquote learn things and make decisions. But what you have to remember is that all these capabilities are what we give it and what it is ultimately programmed to do.

So it's the threat model is nothing that we're not already familiar with. And the other thing to remember is that AI can only go as far as the data that it's trained on. Anything that looks clever or original is actually just random.

And so random being the computer science definition of random, which is, you know, obviously we understand that God is sovereign and in control. And so like random is a weird concept to talk about. But random just means unpredictably distributed across a set.

So I think of the chess match. I forget who it was, but IBM's Deep Blue chess machine. And whoever was up against this machine, he was a chess grandmaster. He accused them of cheating because it made some deeply complex and clever moves that he didn't understand.

And they go back and look at the logs and it turns out, well, they weren't deep and complex and clever moves. They were actually just random because they ran out of memory. And so that was the fallback behavior.

So the folks that are basically frightened about AI that I have heard in the media and even on my show, they seem to be more worried and frightened and dismayed about what this is going to lead to. Now, do you envision that, you know, it may sound comical, but, you know, robots who are learning data and storing it and evolving and changing, you know, may become somehow entities unto themselves, for instance, and start wreaking havoc in our everyday lives and so on.

I mean, in all kinds of things. I mean, even the aforementioned launching of nuclear missiles, that would be more in the computer realm, I assume, than a robot. But, you know, things like that. I mean, what are you hearing that the people are alarmed about specifically?

Yeah, so I would not be alarmed about something like that, where you have these robots that are learning and becoming beings about themselves.

You mean that it's not going to happen or you don't care if it does?

No, I don't think that's going to happen because ultimately, if you think about what information is, right, by the classic creationist definition of information, that it ultimately comes from a mind. And so AI, like I said, can only go as far as it's trained on.

And even if it is learning, it's going to be, you know, quote, learning. It's going to be learning from A, what's already out there, but then B, what AI is putting out there. And since AI is only capable of putting out essentially the mean of what humans have already produced, since, you know, I laid out why it can't actually be clever or creative or do anything actually new, it might do things that are surprising.

But since it's not doing anything new, I think what's more likely is that these AIs are going to taper off and the progress isn't going to be as exponential as people might expect. And we've already seen this over the past year.

You just look for the discussions online. People are complaining about like chat GPT not being as smart as it once was. And that's part of what I'm describing right now. And also partly due to the open AI trying to pull back the capabilities to make it safe in their own eyes.

Safe meaning like, you know, according to like, oh, we don't want it to come up with certain jokes about people that we don't want it to make jokes about, stuff like that. So they're taming the AI, but also as more content out on the Internet is generated by AI, it's just going to naturally level off and not grow anymore.

And even any growth that it does make is going to be ultimately contained by. It's only going to be able to grow to the point of having the average human like output and then no farther.

OK, let's see here. We have a listener named Burke in Washington, Pennsylvania. Burke says, from what I understand, there are many people who have been in the limelight recently are most fearful about the advances of AI because people could easily with this technology make a film, for instance.

It might even be pornographic involving completely innocent people who are not involved in this activity. And therefore they are being slandered in public, humiliated. They may lose their jobs and all kinds of things in a similar vein where people's identities are being taken and used for evil purposes.

It could even be something as simple as somebody who never endorsed a company or product being used in advertisements where they are getting the benefit of a celebrity, for instance, who is endorsing a company or product when he never in reality did.

Aren't you concerned about this?

You know, it's certainly a concern, but I think that's just a concern that we already have to deal with anyway. It might be harder to detect today, but there are proposed solutions around that. So being able to prove the source of a particular testimony, for instance.

So there are efforts right now to be able to prove that you created something. And then if something were to come out and claim to be you, then you could prove that you did not actually produce that.

Now that's now, though. Five years from now, ten years from now. I mean, I'm considering worst case scenarios here that just have come to my mind while hearing you. Somebody who says they have a film of someone murdering someone and they create this thing through artificial intelligence.

Could there be, in your opinion as a software engineer, and of course, none of us are omniscient. We don't know what the future may hold when it comes to advances in technology and how amazing it may become even far beyond our wildest dreams now.

But could there be a film used, a false film, AI-generated film, of your next-door neighbor murdering somebody and there is no way technologically that it could be determined that it's a fake video?

Yeah, certainly. Fabricated evidence has been an issue for as long as we've been prosecuting crime, right?

But I mean, nothing to that extent. I mean, which may even lead to courts not even using evidence like that anymore.

Right, exactly. Which is not a good thing. Ultimately, we would need to fall back on needing multiple lines of evidence in order to convict people. But there are entire non-profit organizations today, like I think what the Innocence Project, they're dedicated to freeing wrongfully convicted felons, we'll say, or criminals, based on new advances in DNA evidence.

And these are people that have spent 20, 30 years of their life in prison, but it turns out that they were innocent and that they shouldn't have been in prison. So, yeah, that's an issue that we deal with today.

And we will certainly need to come up with some solutions to these as this technology is advanced.

AI in Everyday Life, Search, and Transcription

Okay, we do have a listener in Littleton, Colorado. Angela in Littleton, Colorado says, What technology is currently common to most of us that we don't even realize is being produced by artificial intelligence?

And I'm assuming that Angela is speaking about things that we may be witnessing in the media that is innocuous. It's not something that's harming anybody, but we, I'm assuming that's what she means. So, in other words, it's become almost commonplace right now, and we don't even realize AI is responsible for it.

Is there any example of that?

Yeah, I mean, the very first thing that comes to mind is transcription. So, everything on Let's Church is transcribed by AI. And this is AI that's running on hardware that I own and operate. As far as that's concerned.

And you talk to Siri, that's going to be AI. People are pretty comfortable with that. In the media, I mean, AI is largely statistics and mathematical waterfalls. So, even stuff like your pedometer, that used to be like a little bead that would bounce up and down and it would count the bounces and then that would count the steps.

Well, now we have much more sophisticated methods of finding signal in the noise, using AI to be able to count your steps more accurately, things like that.

Now, just out of curiosity, is this interview I'm conducting with you right now being generated by artificial intelligence?

This interview that you're conducting with me right now, as far as my end is concerned, is generated by non-artificial intelligence. You'll have to testify for yourself.

And of course, on my end, most of my listeners will attest to the fact of it being not involving intelligence at all. But you just mentioned transcripts. Can you be detailed in layman's terms everything that you are doing through Let's Church that is dependent upon, or at least extremely benefited by artificial intelligence?

And please use layman terms. I am not a techie. And I'm sure there are many people, especially my age, in my audience that are not as well. I'm always amazed when I meet people or correspond with people, interact with people who have less technological knowledge than I do, because mine is pretty Neanderthal style.

So if you could, just go through some of these methods and ways that you're taking advantage or benefiting by artificial intelligence.

Yeah, so the extent of artificial intelligence on Let's Church right now is when you upload something and it is transcribed into text. Basically, how does that work? The first step is that the machine needs to filter out any noise that is not human voices.

And so then it'll essentially have a pure representation of someone talking, even if there's background music. You have to filter out that background music and get just the voice. And then using statistics, it'll look at individual words in the audio and essentially come up with candidates for what word could that be.

And sometimes it's ambiguous, and so it goes with the best word that it can come up with. And then that's all assembled into a transcript. Then there's another AI process that will insert punctuation and determine where sentences start and end and apply things like capitalization to names, that kind of thing.

For some of the features I was talking about earlier, I'll be taking advantage of an AI technology known as embeddings, where you can take sentences, basically words, and make a numeric representation of those sentences.

So you can imagine, what if you had a plot of words, X and Y, where you could put the word goodbye in one corner, but then in the opposite corner would be the word hello. So those words are far apart from each other on the chart because they're complete opposites.

And so we can think two-dimensionally. We can even think three-dimensionally. But this would be using over 3 ,000 dimensions for sentences. And so that's going to enable things like semantic search.

So it would allow you to search at a basic level, like total inability. But I'm using an anthropomorphizing term here. It'll know that total inability can also be known as total depravity and find you those results as well.

And that's a really basic example. But you can type in really vague notions of an entire sentence that was said at one point and pinpoint exactly where that was in the transcripts across the entire database.

So the example I used, this is a demo I put together, was searching the Bible using AI for they meant bad, but God meant good. That turns up Genesis chapter 50, verse 20. What you intended for evil, God intended for good.

That many people would be saved alive to this day. None of the words are the same, but it still finds that verse of all the other verses because of the sentiment and meaning of what you were trying to search for.

Go ahead.

I thought that comes to mind just talking about that. The listener question was, what's an area of AI that we're all comfortable with, but we don't know about it? Spam filtering. This is the premise of modern-day spam filtering in your email.

Sponsorship Breaks and AI in Search Engines

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own involving artificial intelligence or maybe you have some questions about the company founded by my guest, Letts Church, give us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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