March 4, 2018 Show with Eli Ayala on “Protestant vs. Catholic: Does it Matter?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth day of May 2018, and today

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I'm delighted to have a returning guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, someone who is going to be speaking about something this weekend that is near and dear to my heart, being a former

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Roman Catholic who was delivered from the false theology of Rome by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and brought to a saving knowledge of him through the true gospel that he offers through the death of his son, and we look forward to having you and the audience join us on the air today with your own questions.

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We have Elias Ayala today to discuss Protestant versus Catholic, Does It Matter?,

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and Elias Ayala is a Christian apologist, a graduate of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary where he earned his

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Master's of Arts in Theological Studies and Master of Divinity, and he is a middle and high school teacher at Valley Stream Christian Academy on Long Island, New York, a youth director at Massapequa Reformed Church on Long Island, and a team member at the

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Historical Bible Society. He's also a traveling speaker and he is discussing, as I just mentioned, the

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Protestant versus Catholic debate, Does It Matter?, which is also the theme of a

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Bible study this Saturday, that's tomorrow, May 5th, at 945 a .m. Eastern Time at the

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Massapequa Reformed Church on Long Island, New York, and we'll give you more details about that. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Eli Ayala.

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Hello. It's a pleasure to be back, and I'm looking forward to our discussion. Yeah, I am as well, and I was a bit tongue -tied in the beginning of the program because I just got off the phone with a potential sponsor, so I incorrectly worded something.

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Obviously, Jesus Christ's son did not die on the cross, Jesus Christ himself died on the cross.

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He didn't have a son, it was God the Father's Son who died on the cross. In fact, if anybody saw the movie

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Mercy Me, the lead character from a pulpit thanked the

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Father for dying for his sins, so there was a bit of patré -passionism in that comment.

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I don't know if that's what the lead singer of Mercy Me said in real life, or if that was the butchering of the producer and director and so on that changed the original words.

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But obviously those are serious issues, but we all say things sometimes accidentally when we're tongue -tied and so on.

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But, Eli, why don't you, for the sake of our listeners who have not heard your first interview on Honor, Sharp, and Zion Radio, tell our listeners about your role as a teacher there at Valley Stream Christian Academy in Long Island, and then also your role as a youth director at the

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Massapequa Reform Church on Long Island. Well, I've been a middle school, high school teacher at Valley Stream Christian Academy, which is associated with Bethlehem Assemblies of God, and I was hired to teach social studies, but when they learned that I also went to seminary, they allowed me to also teach the

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Bible class there, which now I teach all of the Bible classes for middle school and high school.

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I teach 7th and 8th grade, we go through a textbook that kind of deals with basic worldview issues, and then the 9th and 10th grade, we do, really we do systematic theology.

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We'll go through, in a basic sense, the various areas of theology, and then on 11th graders we do comparative religion, and then in the 12th grade we focus on apologetics.

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And so I've been there for 7 years, and I've had a great relationship with the students there and the faculty, and I enjoy working in that context.

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Praise God. Well, let us know something now about you and your role as youth director at the

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Massapequa Reform Church on Long Island. I, all my life, have been passing by the

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Massapequa Reform Church on Merrick Road in Massapequa, Long Island, because I was raised in the first town, that would be the first town east of Massapequa, which is

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Amityville, and have always wondered about that church, and have had a number of conversations with pastors there over the years, and now the address

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I have here is Ocean Avenue. Are you on the corner of Merrick Road and Ocean Avenue? Yes. Yeah, that's why

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I'm wondering why it's at Ocean Avenue, because I remember driving by there many times on Merrick Road.

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But tell us about the Massapequa Reform Church. I know that it's a congregation within the RCA, which stands for the

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Reformed Church of America, and that denomination, as you know, can run the gambit from a lot of different theological persuasions, but tell us about that specific congregation and your role as the youth director.

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Yeah, well, kind of like you, I didn't know anything about the church except that I knew that I was passing the traffic to get to work quicker once I passed the parking lot.

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There's a brick house in the parking lot, and just a little ways before that, there's a high school, and so I'd get stuck in the school traffic, the morning traffic, and when

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I drove past the church, I knew that part of the traffic was gone, and it was clear sailing from there, so I had no idea that I would eventually work there and actually live in the parsonage there, so I live on the church property, and I'm a youth director there, so I had the youth group there.

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We have a nice, small youth group, but the kids are really close with one another. They get along great, which is awesome, given that they span a wide range of ages, and the church itself is filled with people that are just really hospitable.

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I remember going there, and I don't think they knew that I was actually going for the position as youth director, but I was surprised to just be welcomed by people.

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I said, hey, we hope you come back, this, that, and the other thing, and we just felt really welcomed there, and so it's really cool to actually now be a part of the staff there, and there are a lot of opportunities just for myself to learn and to also contribute some of the things that I'm passionate about.

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I work under a pastor who has been gracious enough to give me the flexibility to also share the pulpit.

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I teach on some Sundays, and I'm able to come and just run various Bible studies and other teaching opportunities there that I've just been really appreciative of, and I'm looking forward to see what

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God continues to do while we're there, and so far there are a lot of changes going on, but they're all good, and we've been having a great experience so far.

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Great, and for those of you who want to look up more information about the Massapequa Reformed Church, especially in regard to tomorrow's

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Bible study on Protestant versus Catholic, does it really matter, go to massreformedchurch .org,

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and that does not stand for the Roman Catholic Mass, that's an abbreviation for Massapequa, massreformedchurch .org,

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and hopefully we'll be repeating that later on. You're also a team member at the Historical Bible Society that was founded by my friend

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Dan Buttafuoco, attorney at law, and I have been in his presence during many public presentations for the

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Historical Bible Society. Why don't you tell us about that ministry? Well, I was connected to Dan through a friend who used to go to a church that my wife and I attended a while back, and I met with him and went to his office, and we hit it off, and he's like, you know what,

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I need someone to write and contribute some articles, since I'm, you know, as you know, he's a lawyer, he's very busy, and so he wanted to, he offered to have me write for him.

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So I write apologetic articles for the Historical Bible Society, and I do a weekly Facebook live, you know, videos on the

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Historical Bible Society Facebook page, and I've been doing that for quite some time.

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So I also help out when he has events, when he goes to certain conferences and things like that, we'll set up a little, you know, the table with his literature and kind of promote the ministry that he's, that he founded, which really focuses on the accuracy of the

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Bible, the reliability of the Bible and historical documents, and of course, as you know, Dan has a very impressive collection of old

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Bibles and manuscripts and things like that. Oh yeah, some of them date back to prior to the

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Protestant Reformation. Oh yeah, I held in my hand a Calvin's Institute from the 1500s,

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I think it was the 1500s or something like that. Wow. A pretty impressive collection. Wow.

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And I don't know if Dan ever told you about how he came to embrace the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, did he ever tell you that story?

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He may have, although working for him, I haven't seen him much, because he's kind of the guy who put people in place and kind of, you know, is like, hey, you know, you got a good handle on this, go for it.

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So I don't see him a lot, because every now and then we'll connect. So I'm sure he told me at some point, but I don't remember.

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Well, Dan and I, our friendship goes back all the way to 1991,

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I believe. Okay. And he became one of my first advertising clients on WMCA radio, 570

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AM, Salem Communications affiliate. And Dan quickly discovered that I was a very aggressive, excited, and enthusiastic promoter of Reformed theology, aka

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Calvinism. And I used to constantly proselytize

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Dan, shall we say, who at that time was a full blown Arminian, from what I can remember, and was constantly giving him things and articles and books and recordings.

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Back then it would be cassettes of Calvinistic teachers. And I can still remember he came to the church in Long Island that we used to, the building that we used to own that we actually eventually sold to a

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Calvary chapel when we merged with another church, some years after we merged with another church.

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But Dan used to come to that church in Amityville to record commercials. And he came right before Christmas, it might have even been

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Christmas Eve or the day before, and I gave him a Christmas present. And that was

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R .C. Sproul's book, Grace Unknown, which has since had its name changed to something about what is

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Reformed theology or something like that. And I can still remember Dan's reaction. Oh, give me a break.

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Are you giving me more propaganda for Christmas? I can't believe, all right, all right,

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I'll take it. And he leaves the building. He called me up, this is probably in the late 1990s or early 2000s,

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I can't remember exactly when, but he called me up New Year's Day and he said, I haven't been to sleep,

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Chris. I read this book you gave me about R .C. Sproul from cover to cover. I believe now everything that he said in this book.

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And then even years later, a person who was a listener called me up, a listener to WMCA and said, could

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I meet with you? I'd like to talk to you about some theology. He meets with me and he says, I'm having a theological dilemma here.

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I am a Pentecostal and I always was an Arminian. But then I started to hear about this

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Reformed theology from a Bible study in the church where I go. And it's Assemblies of God, but the

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Bible study teacher is Reformed. And I said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Is your Bible study teacher Dan Patifuko?

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And he said, yes. So Dan was turning this individual by the grace of God, of course.

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Into a believer in the Reformed faith. But that's just a, I thought a fascinating story.

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And I remember I was, I told that story to R .C. Sproul, the late R .C. Sproul when I interviewed him back in,

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I believe it was 1996. So that means that Dan must have been saved before 1996. Actually, I'm sorry.

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That interview was later than that. That was in the 2000s. But anyway, when

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I told R .C. Sproul that story, he was very, very pleased that the Lord used that book. And because I'm sure he's heard thousands of others' stories.

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I'm sure he's learned about even thousands more now that he's in glory with Christ. Oh, I'm sure.

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Meeting all kinds of people that came to not only salvation, but the doctrines of grace through his teaching.

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But. My first exposure to R .C. was actually his debate over apologetic methodology with Greg Bonson.

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Oh, wow. Yeah, because I know that R .C. was an evidentialist and not a presuppositionalist.

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So I'm assuming that's what you're talking about. Yeah, it was an excellent debate and all that. Who's this R .C. guy? And of course,

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I later learned that he was, you know, a big, top -notch reform scholar. And of course,

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I've benefited greatly from his work. Amen. Well, we all know that R .C. is a presuppositionalist now.

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Amen. Well, this is, as I said, a topic that's near and dear to my heart.

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The Protestant versus Catholic debate. What does it matter or does it matter? Why did you specifically choose this subject as a topic for the study that you're having tomorrow,

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Saturday, May 5th, at the Mass of People Reform Church? Yeah, well, I wanted to bring some controversial issues in the context of a

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Bible study, first and foremost, for the purpose of interest. I mean, I wanted to kind of get people excited about coming together.

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Before I started doing these Bible studies, I wasn't sure that many of the people in my church were meeting.

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And so, hey, let's start something. My wife actually suggested you should call it Coffee and Questions.

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And so, I was like, yeah, that sounds kind of cheesy. But then I called it Coffee and Questions, and people came.

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We had coffee, people had questions, and then I've been getting requests to record some of them doing a

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Facebook Live, which I've also been asked to do the same for this. And so, I kind of just have it going every couple of weeks.

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I'll pick a topic that I think might be interesting to people. And it's for the purpose to encourage people to get comfortable about talking about uncomfortable things, because there are a lot of people who come from a

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Roman Catholic background, and really, you know, they don't know the difference. Kind of like, is there just one different denomination?

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You know, it shouldn't be a big deal. When, in fact, as you know, there are very, very huge differences, even though there are many similarities.

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And so, the differences are really, really important, and I think they're a perfect topic to discuss in a Bible study.

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Yes, this is an issue that I think is of the utmost importance in the 20th century, because more and more conservative,

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Bible -believing evangelicals who claim to believe in Sola Scriptura, and who claim to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, are becoming full -blown ecumenists with Roman Catholics.

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And that is of great, great concern to me, because I think the gospel matters.

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And if the Council of Trent condemned all Protestants in the 16th century as heretics to be anathematized or accursed, and for the very fact that those anathemas, even though they were hundreds of years ago, or they were pronounced hundreds of years ago, they are binding today on faithful Catholics.

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Catholics faithful to the Roman Catholic Church. And it seems that the majority of people that I speak with, both the

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Roman Catholics that I speak with and evangelicals, seem to think that since the

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Council of Trent is centuries old, and that the way that Catholics speak and teach and behave, including their popes, for the last several decades, in an ecumenical fashion, and even actually all the way going back to the mid of the 20th century, we have

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Vatican II ushering in new concepts to the Church of Rome that we who are

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Protestant are separated brethren and things like that. All of those things are not declared ex cathedra.

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They're not dogmatic. So in other words, the Church of Rome can say a lot of things, and when you may question a more conservative

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Roman Catholic about that, like for instance, my friend Robert St. Genes, who is a Roman Catholic apologist,

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I have asked him, what about your Catholic catechism? It says that Muslims worship the same

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God that you do and so on, or at least adore the same God that you do. He said, yeah, but that's not dogma.

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The liberals that compiled that catechism, although there is truth or are truths in the catechism, there are also novel false ideas in there that Catholics are not bound to believe, and that is one of them.

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So it's a very confusing day and age. People are seeing a smoke screen, and the fact of the matter is the

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Council of Trent has never been revoked, and its anathema is against us. But let me, now that I've got that kind of off of my chest there, let me ask you what specifically you intend to be speaking about in regard to the

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Protestant -Catholic divide tomorrow. Yeah, well, again, I think the whole issue concerning the

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Reformation, those differences that really hit at the core of why Protestantism and Catholicism are so different, and it really is how we are saved and what is our authority.

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It's the issue of salvation by faith alone, and the issue of sola scriptura.

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People ask me, what is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism? The answer to me is very simple.

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We have two different sources of authority. The Protestant that wants to be faithful to God's word as the ultimate foundation, will say only

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God's word is our ultimate authority in all things, whereas the Catholic will extend that authority not only to the

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Bible, but to tradition as well. And uninformed folks who don't really know the differences, you know, the knee -jerk reaction when we hear

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Catholics do, you know, A, B, or C, is, oh, wait a minute, that's not in the Bible. And many uninformed

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Protestants don't recognize that to say that it's not in the Bible does not faze a Catholic one bit, since they don't assume the

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Protestant assumption of sola scriptura. They actually will, you know, openly tell you that the Scriptures are insufficient as the sole source of authority, that you need this tradition, this kind of living voice of the

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Church to kind of provide, you know, commentary as to what the Scripture means, and that includes, as you know, extra material that we don't find in Scripture.

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And so I think that is an important aspect that I want to highlight as to why we differ and why

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Catholics believe things that seem very alien to the Protestant. Our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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One of the things that I think we have to get out of the way or clarify is that when we talk like this, or when anybody talks like this, when we bring up the stark differences between Rome and evangelicalism, not that there are not a number of very important things that we both agree upon.

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We both agree upon the Trinity. We both agree upon the virgin birth of Christ.

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We believe in his total and complete sinlessness and obedience to the

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Father throughout the entirety of his life. We believe in his atoning death, although we disagree radically on how that atonement and redemption take place.

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We agree on his bodily, his physical resurrection and his ascension into heaven, and we believe in his visible and physical return.

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We believe in a number of things that we have in common with the

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Roman Catholic Church, but the areas of idolatry and works righteousness, which would be akin to what the

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Judaizers believed, which Paul declared was a false gospel, and superstition and so on.

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These are the things that very seriously separate us. But we are not saying when we talk about things like this, and I'm sure you will concur, that we are somehow innately better than them.

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Uh, we are not saying that we necessarily are living holier lives than Catholics.

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I know Catholics that put me to shame in many areas of life. There are many

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Catholics that are probably better husbands than I ever was, who are better parents than many evangelical parents, better children to their parents, better neighbors, better citizens, and you could go on and on and on.

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So we're not saying that we're better than Catholics innately in our behavior, necessarily, or our makeup, are we?

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No, I would say, quite simply, we're not better than Catholics, but we are better off than Catholics, if that makes sense.

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Right, amen. Because, I mean, given the fact that we are allowing the Word of God to be our ultimate authority, and acknowledging that it is not, we do not put our trust in the faulty wisdom of man, and that is what

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Roman Catholic tradition is. We are in a better position, not that we are immune from error, but we are in a better position to be more on track, given the fact that we recognize

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God's authority over all human decision. And so in that sense, I'd say we're better off, not better than they are as human beings, to say.

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So where do you plan to start tomorrow in this discussion? Say that again?

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Where in this controversy do you plan to begin your discussion tomorrow in Massapequa Reformed Church at this study?

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Well, for me, it starts with the question. I mean, do these differences matter?

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And the simple answer to that is yes. And so the first thing that I want to draw out is, you know, what separates us, you know, and what brings us, you know, what, quote, brings us together?

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Where are those areas of agreement, and where are these areas of disagreement, and why are they important?

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And that, of course, will lead us to the issue of, you know, I give kind of a little background on the

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Reformation, and what Luther recognized in regards to salvation by faith, and then we will kind of draw that position, in distinction to the

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Roman Catholic position, and show that these differences actually strike at the very heart of the gospel. Amen.

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I just finished listening to an old program that James White did with Tim Staples on the

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Bible Answer Man, and I like how they just laid things on the table. They said, hey, listen, you know,

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Tim, to be perfectly honest, you understand the difference between Protestants and Catholics. It's a salvation issue.

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You think I'm going to hell, and I think you're going to hell, given that we both are presenting two different gospels.

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And they agreed right at the start of it. And I think to acknowledge that is not to step on someone's toes, and we're just doing this to kind of get, you know, one up on the other person.

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No, we're recognizing really that the differences between us are of eternal significance. And so it's very important that we bring that out at the get -go, so that people understand that the differences are vitally important.

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It's not just a matter of taste. It's not just a matter of interpretation. These issues have eternal ramifications.

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Yeah, that is something that is very rarely heard, that kind of candid discussion, because even amongst your mainstream conservative

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Catholics, even those that are with Catholic Answers, that Tim Staples has joined as a team member.

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I believe he's still there. But most of the time, even your conservative

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Roman Catholic, and especially your liberal or moderate

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Catholic, will call Protestants their separated brethren, and they won't make statements like, you're going to hell unless you repent.

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You that you'll find more often, much more often amongst your traditionalist Roman Catholics, those that believe in the exclusivity of the

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Latin mass, and all kinds of other very conservative ideas within Catholicism.

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In fact, Patrick Madrid, who many of our listeners may know, he is more in the main line of traditionalist

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Roman Catholicism. But he said to me that he does not have much hope for me going to heaven, unless I repent and return to the

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Catholic faith, because I was Roman Catholic. He told me that someone like James White is much more likely to go to heaven than I am.

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Because James White never was a Catholic. So apparently, and of course, this does depend on who you're speaking with.

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The Roman Catholic Church is not a monolithic group, as they very often claim. They somehow claim that their quote -unquote infallible magisterium or infallible pope keeps them from the anarchy and chaos that exists in Protestantism, and that's ridiculous.

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There, I believe, are more divisions under what goes under the umbrella of Roman Catholicism than there are under the umbrella of conservative evangelicalism.

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And I have to stress that, because liberal apostate mainline Protestantism, we wouldn't even call them

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Christians. But so there is a difference in the way that Catholics do view this issue on whether or not

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Protestants are going to hell or not. I mean, of course, you even have a pope that is telling a little boy that his atheist father is in heaven.

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So, I mean, the so -called infallibility of the papacy is really a very nonsensical, and it is a teaching that hardly ever comes into play in the lives of Catholics in the 20th and 21st century, because popes very rarely declare anything ex cathedra, which is the only time that they're infallible, for those of you listening who didn't know this.

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So anything else they say is merely their matter of opinion, and that's why the

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Pope Francis is getting away with saying things that would have had him executed by the

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Church of Rome centuries ago. He's saying things that are absolutely mind -blowing in regard to the liberalism and universalism and so on, that have no basis not only in the scripture, but they don't even have basis in historic

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Catholicism. Would you agree with that? Yes, absolutely. I mean, and again, the

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Pope gets a free pass because he's not speaking ex cathedra, yet he is the

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Vicar of Christ. He is the head of the Church, and it does not seem to be the case that he is held very much responsible for any of the utterances he says.

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And when he's not speaking ex cathedra, what he says is still important, and I don't see why he wouldn't be above correction when he utters things that are in disagreement with kind of an orthodox

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Catholic perspective. It's interesting to me to kind of observe that. I remember watching that video and I'm like, you know, is he allowed to say that?

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I mean, and people are clapping and things like that. It's like, I wonder, there's a lack of consistency or perhaps a knowledge of what

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Rome has taught in the past by the average Catholic, but I don't see how people can applaud a statement where a boy's atheist father's in heaven.

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Because why? Because he had kids that size? That doesn't make any sense to me. Right. And in fact, according to Pope Francis, that was even more noble because he was an atheist.

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In other words, because he did something that was risky or going against the grain of his own thought rather than just doing something that was rote or expected of him.

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I mean, just mind -bogglingly crazy stuff. But we have to go to... Well, it seems to me... In fact, yeah, if you could pick up where we left off right after the break because we have to go to our first break right now.

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If anybody wants to join us, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

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Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the

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Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study because everyone needs a pastor.

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And the man whose voice you just heard, Pastor Bill Shishko of Reformation Metro, New York, former pastor for many years at the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, he is the one that first referred me to our guest today,

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Eli Ayala, and he is quite a man of God. Is he not, Eli? Hello?

38:56

Hello, can you hear me, Eli? I can hear you, yeah. I said, is he not

39:01

Bill Shishko, a wonderful brother in Christ and man of God? Oh, absolutely.

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I love Brother Shishko. He has a pastor's heart and has put up with me asking a thousand questions about theology and he's been very gracious.

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I have to check my motives when I meet with him since it's an amazing thing that every time

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I go to his home, I leave with a bunch of books. And so I have to check my motives to see if I visit him just to learn and to enjoy fellowship or to get a bunch of books to study from.

39:41

So he's a gracious man and I definitely look up to him and appreciate his time.

39:47

Yes, and as I was saying, he was the one that first referred me to you and urged me to interview you.

39:54

So I hope that our listeners begin listening to his program regularly. A Visit to the

40:00

Pastor study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m.

40:06

Eastern Time at WLIE540AM .com or anywhere in the

40:12

New York tri -state area and in parts of Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Massachusetts on the

40:18

AM dial 540 AM. So please listen to that program regularly and call in.

40:24

It is a call in program unlike Iron Trip and Zion Radio, which is currently an email in program, although we used to be a call in program.

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But you could call in with your questions and make sure that you tell Bill Shishko that you heard about A Visit to the

40:38

Pastor study from Chris Aronson on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Well, we are now back with Eli Ayala and we are discussing the theme of his

40:48

Bible study that he's conducting tomorrow at the Massapequa Reformed Church on Long Island, which is open to the public.

40:56

And if you could, Eli, pick up where you left off there. We were talking about some of the important divisions between Protestantism and Catholicism.

41:06

And there is a lot of confusion, especially in our day and age, because you have even the

41:12

Pope, Pope Francis, saying things that a

41:17

Catholic would have been executed for centuries ago. And that has actually been going back to the beginning of Vatican II.

41:28

But Pope Francis is far more radically liberal than any other pope that they have ever had. But if you could pick up where you left off there.

41:36

Well, while I was paying so close attention to the commercials, I forgot what I was going to chime in.

41:42

That's why I tried to chime in before the commercial. So I do apologize. So we can continue on. If I catch my thought,

41:47

I'll... Well, you were basically, I believe your first words before I had to interrupt you were something about the fact that Pope Francis is teaching a lot of things that people might think are basic historic

42:02

Catholic teaching, but they're not. He gets away with it because he is not declaring these things dogma ex cathedra.

42:10

So therefore... Right, right. He gets a free pass, so to speak, because he's not speaking authoritatively.

42:19

What I think I was trying to get at was, I'm not sure if this is what I was going to say, but I wonder how the

42:24

Catholic deals with correction. Is there anyone who ever speaks out and corrects the

42:31

Pope when he utters these things, especially when he's not speaking ex cathedra?

42:36

I think it's quite evident that when a person in his position, who is the representative of Christ on earth, is clearly outside the bounds of the

42:47

Bible and tradition, something should be done about that. I wonder how they go about their checks and balances, so to speak, if there is such a notion within their structure.

42:58

Yeah, well, I'm not sure that... I mean, other than things that go on behind the privacy of walls and closed doors in the

43:07

Vatican, I'm not sure what kind of way that the Catholic Church would discipline a Pope.

43:13

But these are not inconsequential things that separate us.

43:19

There are some things that separate us that are far less serious, because there are things that separate us that are even disagreed upon amongst evangelical

43:30

Protestants. I mean, some people think that our beef with Rome is that they are very highly ornamented, and there's a lot of statuary and paintings and things like that.

43:48

And the priests wear robes and all those kinds of things. Well, I mean, you do find those same kinds of things within Protestantism, but typically with a very big difference when it comes to the statuary and imagery, they're not being venerated by the vast majority of Protestants.

44:06

And they're not believed to possess some kind of holy and miraculous power because they've been blessed by priests and all that kind of superstition.

44:17

But we are talking about the gospel here. And do you think that a

44:23

Christian, a Protestant, can on the one hand agree with the

44:28

Apostle Paul for denouncing the Judaizers as heretics and declaring them to be accursed?

44:36

Are you washing dishes right now, by the way, brother? There's all kinds of noise going in the background. No, I just parked my car.

44:44

Oh, okay. Do you find something wrong with our

44:49

Protestant brethren who on the one hand agree with the Apostle Paul for condemning and anathematizing the

44:57

Judaizers, which obviously if you are a believer in the inerrancy of scripture, you would have to agree with the

45:02

Apostle Paul. But at the same time, at the same time, some of these very

45:08

Protestants will embrace Roman Catholics as their brothers and sisters in Christ. And this is not just liberal

45:15

Protestants. This is very often some of the most conservative evangelicals and even

45:22

Calvinists that we know who are doing this. Can a person logically and consistently do both things?

45:31

No, I think that's clearly an example of inconsistency. And I think a lot of people are inconsistent for a number of reasons, especially in our society today with the ecumenical mindset.

45:44

People want to present a veneer of unity.

45:49

And so we tend to, while we were seeking unity, to compromise and to think that people aren't in a better position than they actually are.

45:57

And so I think it's an inconsistent thing to do because just as the Judaizers were adding to the work of Christ, whether one thinks

46:05

Roman Catholics are doing it equally in the same way that the Judaizers were or not, they too are adding to the

46:12

Gospel. And so you have an addition to the Gospel both in the Judaizers and in Roman Catholicism.

46:19

So I think it is an inconsistency for a Protestant who's faithful to Scripture to reject the one as Paul rejects them, but then affirm what

46:27

Roman Catholics are doing in their theology. So I think there's an inconsistency there. Right.

46:33

And so why don't you begin with some of the most...

46:38

Are you being attacked by dogs now? What's going on? Yeah, apparently I am.

46:44

I'm not home right now. I was actually driving home and so I parked my car to kind of not drive so I can kind of concentrate a little bit, but apparently all the dogs are out and the workers are out in the street, so I apologize for the noise.

47:00

Just don't start praying to St. Rocco, who is apparently the patron saint of protection from attacking dogs, and I'm not making that up.

47:13

Okay, I'll be sure not to do that. In fact, if you see a statue of St. Rocco, he's usually petting a dog or has a dog right next to him.

47:21

But no, I'm serious. It is laughable, though.

47:27

I'm sorry if I'm hurting people's feelings, but there's some superstitions that are just laughable. You just can't help it.

47:33

Right. Yeah, tell us about some of the primary things that you are going to be discussing where Rome and the

47:42

Reformation and the heirs of the Reformers have a chasm between us, that these are serious issues that can't be overlooked.

47:52

They can't be undermined. They can't be sugar -coated and candy -coated.

47:59

They have to be addressed because if we care about the eternal souls of those we love, we are going to have to bring up these differences.

48:08

So if you could, start telling us about what you're going to be discussing. Well, I will be placing a big emphasis on the concept of sola scriptura.

48:16

And I think this is really important if you really think about it. I mean, the difference between us, they're biblical differences.

48:22

You know, how is one saved? What did the work of Christ accomplish? And how does this all work out? People who disagree are going to have to appeal to some kind of authority to validate their position.

48:34

And we need to recognize that our sources of authority are different. And that's why we're coming to different conclusions when we speak with Catholics.

48:43

And so I want to emphasize that, I hate to use the term, but that dividing line, which is the sources of authority.

48:52

And so I want to emphasize that it is because of the denial of sola scriptura that you have all of these different doctrines that we would argue are go against scripture.

49:02

And so I really want to take the time both to teach, but also to encourage and, how can

49:09

I say this, exhort my brothers to recognize the importance of the authority of scripture in our lives.

49:17

Because I think that's an awesome opportunity from an apologetics perspective to understand, you know, to be able to defend sola scriptura, but at the same time reinforce the authority of scripture in all areas of our life.

49:28

So that not just when talking about Roman Catholicism, we learn to think through a scriptural grid in every area of our life, that we're to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ and to test all things, hold on to that which is good, and let go of everything else.

49:44

And so I want to use that as an opportunity to kind of emphasize the authority of scripture. This is what

49:50

I always do, whether I'm speaking about apologetics or I'm speaking about some issue in theology,

49:56

I always start at the same place. It's the authority of scripture. If I'm interpreting scripture and expounding scripture correctly, it is as though God himself is speaking.

50:05

And that and those words are the words that hold us accountable and they're the standard by which we measure all things.

50:12

And so when we're doing theology and we're struggling with certain concepts that may be difficult, we need to learn to confront scripture in such a way that we are willing to bow down to its authority, even when it teaches things that we're not comfortable with.

50:24

And so I always start with the authority of scripture because of the nature of scripture. It is absolute and authoritative over all of our faiths, and we need to confront the debate between Roman Catholics and Protestants with that mindset, just because the

50:38

Catholic does not affirm sola scriptura does not mean that we give up our ground, so to speak. We want to affirm the authority of scripture and bring the

50:45

Catholic back to the authority of scripture, even though they appeal to external authority, because they also believe in the authority of scripture.

50:55

We can do our best to present what their external tradition sources have and compare them to scripture.

51:04

And I think when we do that and we do that effectively, and sometimes it's not as easy as we would hope, when we do that effectively, we could make some segue in communicating with them.

51:14

Now, the notorious biggest obstacle or hurdle that a

51:21

Protestant will typically find in communicating the idea of sola scriptura to a

51:29

Roman Catholic, especially a Roman Catholic that reads or watches or listens to Catholic apologists, give them some kind of ammunition as to how to be involved in friendly dispute or debate or discussion or disagreement with Protestants, is the fact that a

51:53

Catholic will say, well, wait a minute now, you say that much of your faith is based on sola scriptura, one of the watchwords of the

52:02

Reformation. The terms scripture alone or only the scripture is to be used as an infallible authority of faith, those phrases and words aren't anywhere to be found in the

52:17

Bible itself. So if you believe the Bible itself is sufficient, why does it even include that?

52:24

How do you respond to a Catholic that says that to you? Yeah, well, first of all, on the face of it, that doesn't strengthen their argument in any way, shape, or form.

52:35

If you think about it, there are a lot of concepts that we believe are grounded in the Bible, but the

52:40

Bible itself doesn't use the specific terminology, and as you would know, the word Trinity doesn't appear in the Bible, monotheism doesn't appear in the

52:47

Bible, yet we rightfully derive those concepts from principles of scripture, maybe implicit and explicit statements of scripture.

52:55

And so the real issue is, I could agree with the Roman Catholic that the Bible doesn't say scripture alone, but we can explore with the

53:04

Catholic, what does the Bible say about itself? And that's where we have to pick up. We have to pick up from that, and this time we'll remember it's the sola scriptura discussion.

53:13

We have to go to our midway break right now. If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

53:20

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And by the way, brother, we have a 12 -minute break. If you want to get settled somewhere where there's less background noise, that'd be great.

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So we do have a very long break, 12 minutes long, that is required of us by Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida.

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So please take this time not only to write down information that our advertisers provide, but also write down questions for our guest,

53:41

Eli Ayala. chrisarnsen at gmail .com is the address. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Elias Ayala, and our discussion on Protestant versus Catholic, doesn't matter. We have some important announcements to make.

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First of all, as we have been promoting, tomorrow, Saturday, May 5th at 9 .45

01:07:03

a .m., Pastor, or should I say, Youth Director Elias Ayala will be leading a

01:07:11

Bible study at the Massapequa Reformed Church on the theme Protestant versus Catholic doesn't matter.

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And the Massapequa Reformed Church is located on 302 Ocean Avenue in Massapequa, Long Island, right on the borderline of Nassau and Suffolk County.

01:07:27

And they are also located on the corner of Merrick Road in Massapequa. The website for the

01:07:33

Massapequa Reformed Church is Massapequa... I'm sorry, massreformed...

01:07:40

I'm really messing up today. massreformedchurch .org massreformedchurch .org

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And you can also call the Massapequa Reformed Church at 516 -799 -5158.

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516 -799 -5158. Then this

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Sunday night, as you've been hearing on the program, creationist

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Christian astrophysicist Jason Lyle is going to be speaking at the

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Calvary Chapel of South Jersey this Sunday, May 6th, at 9 a .m.,

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11 a .m., and 7 p .m. For more details, you can go to ccsouthjersey .org

01:08:26

cc for Calvary Chapel southjersey .org or you can call them at 856 -848 -4500.

01:08:35

856 -848 -4500. Then coming up next week, the

01:08:42

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having a special event. It is known as the

01:08:50

Shepherds Conference and or the Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat, it's also called.

01:08:56

That's going to be held at the Harvey Cedars Bible Conference Center on 12 Cedars Avenue in Harvey Cedars, New Jersey.

01:09:05

And that's May 14th through the 16th. And the theme is the Welcoming Church.

01:09:11

And the speakers include Erwin Ince, Randy Neighbors, Joe Novenson, and Deepak Raju.

01:09:19

And I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing Deepak's last name. Once again, it's May 14th through the 16th.

01:09:25

If you'd like more information, go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org Click on Events and then click on Faithful Shepherds Pastors Retreat.

01:09:36

Then at the end of this month, I, God willing, will be in attendance at the

01:09:42

Banner of Truth Conference. And I hope that as many of my listeners in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience will be there.

01:09:50

I'm very excited about it. And this will be my second

01:09:55

Banner of Truth Ministers Conference. It's on the theme Ministers of Christ. And this year, the speakers include

01:10:04

Alistair Begg, Johnny Gibson, Mark Johnston, Al Mohler, David Strain, and Craig Troxell.

01:10:09

It's being held in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. And it's May 29th through the 31st, as I mentioned.

01:10:16

If you'd like to register, go to banneroftruth .org banneroftruth .org Click on Events and then click on U .S.

01:10:23

Ministers Conference. Make sure you click U .S. and not U .K. because there are several U .K.

01:10:29

Ministers Conferences listed. And they just finished one about a week ago. So this is the

01:10:35

U .S. Ministers Conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, May 29th through the 31st. Please mention to the

01:10:42

Banner of Truth and to the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and to everybody else that I advertise that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:10:52

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01:13:35

Eli Ayala and we are discussing the protestant versus catholic debate, does it matter?

01:13:43

And our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:13:50

and please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

01:13:55

USA. And now that we are back to our program, our discussion,

01:14:02

Eli, we were talking about Sola Scriptura and its vital importance and the fact that it is at the core of this issue that we are discussing.

01:14:10

So pick up where we left off on Sola Scriptura. Well, you asked me what

01:14:16

I would say if a catholic said something to the effect that the word

01:14:21

Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible I'm saying that the authority is the Scripture, yet the very principle of Sola Scriptura, they would argue, is not found in Scripture.

01:14:30

And so I was pointing out just the fallacious nature of that line of reasoning given the fact that we have many beliefs that we know are biblical even though the

01:14:39

Bible does not utilize certain terminology to express that. For example, as I used before the break, the term

01:14:46

Trinity does not appear in Scripture yet it's clearly taught in Scripture. The word monotheism is not mentioned in Scripture, yet the

01:14:54

Bible clearly teaches it. And so what we want to do is to demonstrate our position by explaining the very nature of Scripture, the very nature of the authority of God's word.

01:15:05

One of my favorite passages in the Bible refers to God swearing by himself because there is no greater authority by which to swear.

01:15:13

And I think it's very important to recognize since the Bible is God's word, it comes with the utmost, ultimate authority when it is given to us.

01:15:23

And when we speak it and we express it and interpret it correctly, this is as though God is speaking himself. And so by the very nature of Scripture, we find that there is no other higher authority than Scripture itself.

01:15:34

Also, we find, for example, just the application of this authoritative revelation in 1

01:15:40

Timothy chapter 3 verse 14 through 15, Paul says, I'm writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long, but in case

01:15:47

I'm delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living

01:15:53

God and the pillar and support of the truth. Paul is writing so that the church knows how to conduct themself.

01:16:02

Right? The authority of God's word, which of course was evident in the writings of Paul, are meant to equip us to conduct ourselves properly within the household of God.

01:16:12

And when we recognize that, we recognize that the word of God is sufficient to do that. As we see in 2

01:16:17

Timothy 3 .16, it says, All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent and equipped for every good work.

01:16:30

And that is the scripture. That's what the scripture provides for us. It provides for us a means to be equipped to do every good work that we're called to do.

01:16:39

And so it seems that the Bible itself, given the nature of scripture and given its application, as we see in Paul, that the

01:16:45

Bible is adequate to do just that. And so there's no warrant to suggest that we require some external authority that adds to this, that adds to our ability to be fully equipped.

01:16:57

And so that's what I would do when I'm speaking to a Roman Catholic who brings this up. First, I would mention that the terminology doesn't have to be there explicitly, but the concept itself must be taught in scripture, and that's what we're saying, right?

01:17:09

What are we saying when we say we believe, as Christians, in sola scriptura? Sola scriptura is the teaching that the scriptures contain all that is necessary for salvation and proper living before God, right?

01:17:22

And it's the final authority in those areas. So we believe that the Bible does that.

01:17:28

It tells us what we need to be saved, right? The gospel is presented, what you have delivered to the saints once and for all.

01:17:35

It's given to us how we're saved, and it refers to itself as the authority that validates that.

01:17:42

And so I don't see anywhere in scripture this appeal to an external source of authority, even when the

01:17:48

Bible itself mentions the importance of tradition. You don't see tradition being placed on the level that Roman Catholics placed tradition.

01:17:56

As a matter of fact, you see in Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees and leaders of his day where he both commends tradition, but also reprimands them for having unbiblical tradition.

01:18:06

Why? Because the way they were utilizing that tradition dishonored God's word because it contradicted it.

01:18:13

They were functioning within their tradition after the wisdom and knowledge of man, and not of God.

01:18:20

And so we see even in scripture itself that Jesus points to the authority of God's word.

01:18:25

You see this when he is tempted in the wilderness. How does Jesus respond to the devil? He responds with the authoritative word of God.

01:18:33

That is our ultimate test. That is our ultimate standard. Amen. And the irony is that the

01:18:41

Church of Rome, one of the things they agree with us on is that they believe that all scripture is

01:18:49

God -breathed. They believe in the inerrancy of scripture, at least dogmatically they do, and the conservative

01:18:56

Catholics will agree with us that all scripture is inerrant and infallible. Their problem has always been the sufficiency of scripture and that it alone is an infallible authority.

01:19:08

Now what's strange about that is in a sense, in a very real sense, or should

01:19:19

I just say flat out, you do not need a scripture that says that the

01:19:25

Bible alone is our sole infallible authority because the scriptures do say, as you just read from 2

01:19:32

Timothy 3 .16 -17, that all scripture is

01:19:37

God -breathed. That is enough to know because not even the Catholic Church, even though they hold it as an equal authority and some might say a superior authority over the

01:19:48

Bible, they don't even dogmatically say that their tradition is God -breathed, which is the irony here.

01:19:54

You don't need anything else said. If it's

01:19:59

God -breathed, then the traditions of men are definitely not anywhere close to the par of that.

01:20:06

Right. We know that the scriptures are God -breathed. We're not told in scripture regardless of what you believe about tradition, we're not told anywhere in scripture that the tradition is just as God -breathed.

01:20:19

What we see in scripture is the importance of tradition. And the danger of tradition.

01:20:28

Exactly, exactly. This is a caricature that's usually foisted upon the Protestant that we reject tradition, and we don't.

01:20:36

I think tradition is vitally important, and even for myself, I feel that the average Protestant does not avail themselves of the treasures of the writings of the early

01:20:46

Church Fathers, and what the early Church Fathers had to contribute to early Christianity and the development of it.

01:20:52

So I grant, I would understand the frustration that the Roman Catholic would have with the average

01:20:58

Protestant who does not put too much purchase on the external historical sources.

01:21:05

I agree that they are vitally important, and that we should emphasize them more in terms of availing ourselves of the material and coming to grips of what's going on in the early

01:21:15

Church and what was taught. But at the same time, again, I had a discussion with a friend of mine who just converted to Greek Orthodoxy, and you have a similar situation where there is an appeal to an external authority in the

01:21:28

Church tradition. I know scripture is God -breathed. I know nowhere in scripture where I'm told that tradition is

01:21:35

God -breathed. And that's where the issue is. Yeah, in fact, you might want to tell your friend to look up in the archive of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a recent interview that I had with an expert, an evangelical expert on Eastern Orthodoxy.

01:21:57

And I'm looking that up now. And while I'm looking it up, I'll give out our email address again for any of you who want to join us on the air with a question of your own for our guest,

01:22:08

Eli Ayala. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:22:13

chrisarnson at gmail .com On April 13th, we had Dr. Jack D.

01:22:19

Kinnear, who actually got his doctorate degree from the

01:22:24

Eastern Orthodox Seminary, St. Vladimir's Seminary, I believe in Yonkers, somewhere in New York State.

01:22:34

I'm almost positive it's in Yonkers. But he is a thoroughly reformed

01:22:39

Five -Point Calvinist and Presbyterian, conservative Presbyterian. And he did an interview with me because it is very rare to find a modern day conservative evangelical

01:22:51

Protestant or Calvinist who has a thorough knowledge of Eastern Orthodoxy. And Dr.

01:22:57

Jack Kinnear, that's K -I -N -N -E -E -R, does. He's on the faculty at Reform Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh.

01:23:07

And he is a PC... If you could, Chris, if you could send me that link, if you could send me that link, I'd greatly appreciate it.

01:23:13

Oh, I will. I will after the show. But anybody could look it up by going to irontreppanzironradio .com

01:23:19

and in the archive, you can click or you could type into the search engine of the archive

01:23:25

K -I -N -N, and that's NN as in Nancy, K -I -N -N -E -E -R,

01:23:31

K -I -N -N -E -E -R. And that will be the only program that comes up April 13th, 2018.

01:23:39

Dr. Jack D. Kinnear on Eastern Orthodoxy. What separates it from Rome and the Reformation is the full theme of the interview.

01:23:49

But one of the things that this discussion reminds me of is if you are hiking in the woods and one of your buddies or you, let's say you get bit by a rattlesnake and one of your friends says,

01:24:06

I have a medical manual on exactly what to do to save the life of a person who's been bitten by a rattlesnake.

01:24:16

And then somebody else says, well, wait a minute, you don't need that because we have a family tradition since we've all been hikers and outdoorsmen, we have a family tradition on how to take care of these things that's been passed down.

01:24:30

It's an old recipe by a great great grandmother of mine that will do just as good. What are you going to believe?

01:24:36

The medical manual? Or are you going to believe this person's remembering of an old family tradition that's been passed down?

01:24:45

Now, obviously, most people are going to say, give me that medical manual immediately. And if you want to, obviously the importance is a million times, a billion times over when you're talking about something that has eternal life hinged on it.

01:25:01

Not just the survival of a rattlesnake bite. Why would you want to trust anything that has any disagreement with the

01:25:12

God -breathed truths of the scripture with some tradition that even the

01:25:18

Catholic Church disagrees over left and right? So, I mean, it's really a life and death situation.

01:25:28

And that is an eternal life and death situation when it comes to this debate. And we don't even...

01:25:35

Well, even in your analogy, in your analogy, Chris, you don't even have the authority to read the instruction manual.

01:25:42

Even if you just choose the... Say you don't want to choose the tradition. If you are going to read the instructions to apply the cure on Roman Catholicism, you don't even have a right to interpret it.

01:25:55

You have to adopt the interpretation that's given to you by the tradition. Right. And the thing that's absurd about that whole thing is the

01:26:04

Catholics will say, and I think it might have been Scott Hahn who said that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy.

01:26:11

Scott Hahn, one of the favorite Roman Catholic apologists among modern

01:26:17

Catholics today, former Protestant who converted to Catholicism.

01:26:23

That slogan that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy is absurd and it's slanderous.

01:26:31

And a Roman Catholic has no business making that comment because the fatal flaw in that is that Roman Catholics do not have an infallible interpreter for their infallible interpreter.

01:26:46

They are left in the same position that Protestants are left in.

01:26:51

Protestants, when they want to correctly exegete the Bible, when they want to understand it, yes, it involves some study and private reading of the

01:27:06

Bible. To be sure that has to be a very large part of a person's piety of part of their tradition and custom of life.

01:27:15

But if they are to be wise, they are going to look to great men of God who have written about these things great theologians of the past and present who have grappled through these things in a much greater depth than they have the possibility to do.

01:27:35

And obviously always as the Bereans did going back to the scriptures. So that is the position that Protestants are left in.

01:27:42

The Catholic really is left in no different position because he's got to grapple through how to interpret not only dogmatic proclamations but also papal encyclicals and everything else.

01:27:53

And you will find a myriad of differences of opinion even amongst conservative

01:27:59

Catholics as to what these things mean. In fact, every time the

01:28:04

Pope speaks, you have a bunch of spin doctors trying to interpret what he meant and you'll have a wide variety of opinion, don't you?

01:28:13

Yes. And it's it's it's it's interesting because you still have to go through some kind of of exegetical process, whether you're exegeting scripture, whether you're exegeting fathers, whether you're exegeting something that the

01:28:25

Pope speaks ex cathedra. There's always that process of interpretation. You know,

01:28:30

I had a discussion with some Mormons a couple of weeks ago, and of course, when you quote scripture, what's the response?

01:28:36

Well, that's your interpretation. I remember listening to Greg Bonson when he was talking about this very issue with interpretation, that the fact that there are multiple interpretations of something does not invalidate the reality that there is a correct interpretation.

01:28:52

And if you say that my correction, my interpretation is incorrect, that presupposes that you have the correct interpretation.

01:28:57

So there is a process that we have to go through that's going to what's going to it's what it is going to boil down to is one's, you know, affirmation that God created the world in such a way that language is something that we can use.

01:29:10

Words have meaning and God has gifted us. This is biblical. God has gifted us with teachers and preachers and resources that we can use to help us together as a community of faith to kind of come to grips with what the

01:29:23

Bible says. But we don't need this external authority that really, there are no checks and balances in it at all.

01:29:32

I mean, it's very interesting that we must dogmatic, we must affirm a dogmatic assertion from Rome and without question, yet the apostle

01:29:41

Paul, who is an apostle, we're told that the Bereans tested out what he said. Why can't the

01:29:47

Catholic do that to the pope or the teaching magisterium that you really can't?

01:29:53

How would you as a faithful Catholic test whether or not Rome is teaching correctly? Because when it all boils down to when things are spoken at the ex cathedra, it's on divine authority and needs to be accepted just on its own authority and that's it.

01:30:06

And so they're really, it's really, if you think about it, I don't want to put things in an inappropriate light, but it's very cultic in the sense that cults have the characteristic of not encouraging critical thought because if you're reading scriptures and say, it's clear it's saying this thing over here, when

01:30:22

Rome is teaching something else, well, I guess Rome is right because they're the teaching authority. You see, and so I see that's a very problematic thing to consider.

01:30:30

Yeah, we have to go to our final break right now and we do have some listeners waiting to have their questions answered. So we'll go to as many of you as we can when we return from the break.

01:30:39

Our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:30:46

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And make sure you tell them that you heard about Solid Ground Christian Books from Chris Aronson on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio.

01:37:09

We are now back with Elias Ayala. He is a member of the team at the

01:37:18

Historical Bible Society, and he's also the youth director at Massapequa Reform Church on Long Island, New York, which is having a special Bible study open to the public tomorrow,

01:37:29

Protestant versus Catholic, what does it matter or doesn't matter. And that's going to be tomorrow,

01:37:35

May 5th, 945 a .m. And for more details, you can go to massreformedchurch .org

01:37:43

for directions and other things. massreformedchurch .org That's an abbreviation for Massapequa.

01:37:50

massreformedchurch .org We have an anonymous listener, Eli, who says, my

01:37:58

Catholic family will constantly remind me of the ancientness of Roman Catholicism.

01:38:06

They will say that the Protestant Reformation did not come about until the 16th century, and that their church is much older, centuries older than ours.

01:38:17

In fact, 16 centuries older. They seem to think this gives them legitimacy and more of a pedigree when it comes to biblical truth, since their church came about closer to the apostolic era.

01:38:31

And they will even say, of course, that Peter was their first pope, something that we disagree upon. But even if you leave that issue aside, there is something ancient about the

01:38:40

Roman Catholic Church that Protestants cannot claim historically. How do you overcome this dilemma?

01:38:49

Well, first we need to— Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Okay. Well, first we need to point out that the ancientness of it, of something, doesn't prove its validity.

01:38:59

That's right. You catch that? For example, you had Gnosticism, which was around for quite some time.

01:39:07

Again, the age of something doesn't demonstrate its truthfulness. And so you could do any number of things.

01:39:14

First, you could argue ad nauseam the church fathers, as to show, you know, well, who taught what?

01:39:20

Because now you have the issue of various church fathers conflicting with one another. Or because the

01:39:26

Catholic and the Protestant both agree on what the scripture— that the scripture is God breathed, you can go straight to the scriptures.

01:39:33

Who cares if the Protestant Reformation started later? The question we want to know is, does the Bible teach what the

01:39:39

Protestants, you know, were teaching? You know, when the Protestant Reformation came about, you know, does the scripture reflect those truths?

01:39:47

And so we want to avoid endless debate over the fathers and go straight to scripture, since that is,

01:39:55

I put in scare quotes, that is a point of commonality between you guys, right?

01:40:00

You both at least agree that the Bible is inspired. Well, let's go to the Bible and see whether or not what was taught in the

01:40:07

Protestant Reformation is what's reflected in scripture. And of course, the person who does that is going to want to also demonstrate— although I say this with scare quotes as well, because it does take some work— you'd want to demonstrate what the

01:40:20

Roman Catholic Church teaches is in conflict with scripture. You also might want to point out that what

01:40:25

Rome believes today is not exactly what Rome believed back then. And so there may have been a time when the

01:40:31

Roman Catholic Church kind of was on the right foot, was on the right path, so to speak, and kind of veered off, given the adoption of certain erroneous theological perspectives.

01:40:39

So you can take that from any number of angles. But I would try to draw the person right back to scripture.

01:40:47

Amen. And yeah, your first statements are, I think, the most important thing in relationship to that kind of comment, because you even have the

01:40:57

Apostle Paul and writers within the New Testament that brought up heresies that were rising up in that day.

01:41:08

So something's antiquity does not give it a seal of approval.

01:41:14

The Judaizers are another group that rose up within the apostolic era, so that does not give them any kind of seal of approval.

01:41:25

And especially our our more conservative traditionalist

01:41:30

Catholic friends have no business at all using that. I don't know what you're doing, brother, but you almost made me go deaf there.

01:41:38

Oh, I didn't hear anything. Oh, okay. I'm not doing anything. I'm just trying to get on the phone.

01:41:45

Okay. There was some kind of feedback. My own voice was coming back at me. The traditionalist

01:41:51

Catholics really have no business using that as a line.

01:41:56

Even though they do, because there are many people that all they have known about Catholicism was

01:42:03

Vatican II. And the more the more traditionalist Catholics despise the novelties and innovations, the liberal modernist innovations that Vatican II opened the door for.

01:42:17

So therefore some might say, you know, I mean, to use these things as a timeline and so on, if you're a traditionalist

01:42:28

Catholic, you can't just because you may have been born after Vatican II came into play, for instance, you may you may have been born in the 70s or 80s or 90s.

01:42:43

And you're complaining about the liberalism in the

01:42:49

Catholic Church. Well, your your conservatism is something newer than than the

01:42:56

Vatican II is. So I mean, you can't something older doesn't necessarily make make it more orthodox or biblical.

01:43:06

And so therefore that it's a very good question, though. And it's something that's very often heard.

01:43:11

And thank you for submitting the question anonymous. If you want to off the air, of course, give me your full name and mailing address.

01:43:19

You have won a free New American Standard Bible as a first time questioner. So please email me your full name and mailing address and we'll have

01:43:29

CVBBS .com ship that out to you as soon as possible. Just one more quick point,

01:43:35

Chris, if you don't mind. Also, when someone makes the argument that, well, the

01:43:41

Roman Catholic Church can be traced back to the Apostle Peter, you do need to recognize that that statement itself is begging the question.

01:43:48

Right. You're assuming the Roman Catholic interpretation of the role of Peter and then the particular scriptural references that they're putting forth.

01:43:57

And that's why I kind of pointed the importance of getting back to, well, let's debate what the scripture is actually talking about.

01:44:05

So that's why I brought that point up. But go ahead. Yeah, in fact, one of the things that I'm glad that you said that because it jogged my memory about something important.

01:44:13

The reformers were not negating the patristics.

01:44:18

They were saying that the 16th century

01:44:24

Roman Catholic Church had not only departed from the Bible, but even from their own church fathers.

01:44:30

The reformers were using the patristics as a weapon to show that not only was the gospel of the

01:44:40

Reformation biblical, but it was also ancient in the tradition of the

01:44:45

Catholic Church, having been in existence long prior to the Reformation, but being prevalent in the patristic era as well.

01:44:55

So there was a myth that the church father is unanimously speak in one accord with modern day

01:45:02

Roman Catholicism. And that's just a total lie. It's a historical lie. And Cardinal John Henry Newman's famous quote is also a lie that to be steeped in history is to cease to be

01:45:17

Protestant. I have found in my own life that to be absolutely false. To be steeped in history makes me more convinced that I'm right to be

01:45:26

Protestant. Right, right. I have a friend, Matt Flick, who's over at CARM, the

01:45:31

Christian Apologetics Research Ministry. He has a section on Roman Catholicism, and I like how he entitled the particular section in regards to the church father.

01:45:39

He called it, My Church Father Can Beat Up Your Church Father. He goes to show that, you know, as important as they are, even the church father contradict one another.

01:45:49

So which church father are we going to believe? And of course, it's not as simple as just going to the church fathers.

01:45:56

You now have to deal with the problem of adopting the infallible interpretation of the church fathers.

01:46:01

So if you're a faithful Catholic, you're not even allowed to read the church fathers in an objective way. You have to adopt, you know, the interpretation that's given you.

01:46:11

Right. Excellent. RJ in White Plains, New York, says, Have you ever had a

01:46:17

Catholic explain how when it is clear that the

01:46:23

Apostle Paul tells Timothy that the scriptures are sufficient for every good work, many of what the

01:46:31

Catholic church endorses and in fact has declared ex cathedra to be dogma are not found in scripture and therefore could not be under the umbrella of what

01:46:43

Paul said to Timothy if scripture is sufficient for every good work is not according to a

01:46:52

Catholic praying to Mary, a good work is not going to a confessional booth and doing acts of penance for the forgiveness of sins, a good work according to a

01:47:03

Catholic isn't worshiping the elements of the mass, a good work according to a

01:47:09

Catholic and yet none of these things are in the scripture that Paul himself said was sufficient for every good work.

01:47:15

That's an excellent, excellent point that RJ is making, don't you concur? I do, that makes the point of the sufficiency of scripture.

01:47:24

Apparently, when Paul uttered those words, the scripture was sufficient for every good work and of course if Rome requires us to believe that there's extra intradition, extra information that's required for us to be fully equipped and yet that seems to be in tension with what

01:47:41

Paul says there. I think that's an excellent point. Thank you, RJ. We have CJ this time from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks, do you believe that Roman Catholics can be saved?

01:47:55

And I'm talking about Roman Catholics that remain Roman Catholics until their death. Well, I affirm the position that if someone knows and understands official

01:48:07

Roman Catholic doctrine and remains in that system, I think that that person is outside the camp of Christ.

01:48:15

And if this is someone who knowingly does this, knowingly understands the doctrines and things like that,

01:48:21

I think they are compromising the gospel. Because as we said before, we believe that the

01:48:26

Roman Catholic church does not present the true gospel. And if you understand the issues and still affirm what they present, you could ask the same question, can a

01:48:34

Mormon be saved and stay in the Mormon church and affirm everything Mormons believe? I don't think that that's possible.

01:48:40

Now, if you have someone who's in the Roman Catholic church who may not be how we just described there,

01:48:46

I mean, they're relying on Jesus, they're kind of, they don't really put all the puzzle pieces together.

01:48:51

There may be a chance, given God's grace, that that person could have saving faith and might be saved.

01:48:58

But the example that he gave, I'm not sure that that's possible. Yeah, I think you're exactly right, because there's a difference between somebody who's, in reality, accurately, a

01:49:13

Roman Catholic and one who just calls himself a Roman Catholic. My mother was born and raised in Roman Catholicism and was a faithful Roman Catholic for her entire life.

01:49:27

And then six weeks before she entered into eternity with Christ, she denounced prayer to Mary and the saints.

01:49:38

She denounced viewing crucifixes and statues as holy objects.

01:49:45

She put her entire trust in her salvation, in the cross of Christ, in Christ's death for her.

01:49:54

Now, if before she uttered her last word or made her last breath, if I asked her,

01:50:02

Mom, are you a Roman Catholic? She may have said yes, but obviously she wasn't really.

01:50:08

She was a born -again believer. She renounced the gospel of Rome, even if she didn't really conscientiously understand that that's what she was doing.

01:50:18

And a better way of phrasing it, she embraced the biblical gospel. And then the other things, some of the other things began to just fall away, like praying to statues or venerating statues or praying to Mary and the saints.

01:50:34

All of those things vanished and so there you have a person that might have been identified as a

01:50:40

Roman Catholic. In fact, since my father was still at that time alive, he had a Roman Catholic funeral for her.

01:50:47

So many of those people in attendance would have assumed Virginia was a Roman Catholic, but Virginia had a true gospel before she departed this earth, and Virginia Arnzen is indeed in eternity with Christ.

01:51:00

Right, and I don't think God requires us to adopt the specific terminology,

01:51:06

I am no longer this, and now I am this. You know, I think God knows the heart. The person knows their faith fully in Christ and Christ alone.

01:51:14

I think salvation is attained through faith.

01:51:20

And even though we don't use the Protestant categories to describe those things, God knows the heart. Amen. And as Johnny Carson, or as the,

01:51:30

I should say, the game show way back in the 50s, and I believe maybe early 60s, that Johnny Carson hosted, it was called,

01:51:38

Who Do You Trust? That's really the main theme of the gospel is who do you trust?

01:51:45

Are you trusting in yourself? Are you trusting in your goodness, your deeds?

01:51:51

Are you trusting in the goodness and deeds of Mary and the saints?

01:51:56

Or are you solely putting your trust upon Christ and his finished work on Calvary's cross and his resurrection and ascension?

01:52:05

Are you trusting in that? And that is really what is the key that matters.

01:52:11

Right. And I really appreciate what Dr. James White often says, that your faith is only as good as the one you're putting it in.

01:52:21

And if you're asked one day, why should I let you into heaven? The answer will only be by God's grace alone.

01:52:27

And so our faith in Christ alone and in his work alone.

01:52:33

And I think that is one of the great dividing lines between the Protestant position and the Catholic position. Amen.

01:52:39

And B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, says, How do you respond to our Catholic friends that say that Calvin and Luther maintained

01:52:49

Roman Catholic understandings and traditions and customs and positions that we abandon and oppose as heresy?

01:53:00

I'd say, cool. No. You see, the assumption is that someone who identifies themselves as a

01:53:08

Calvinist and a Lutheran is that we somehow agree with everything that they taught. Calvin and Luther would have encouraged us not to affirm everything that they taught unless it was tested by scripture.

01:53:20

So you can do option A and scour the sources and try to defend, well, maybe that's not what they meant

01:53:28

Let's exegete Calvin or let's exegete Luther. Or you can just say, well, I trust the authority of scripture.

01:53:35

You know, I don't think that Calvin was infallible. I don't think that Luther was infallible. I see what they taught and I compare it with scripture.

01:53:40

And I see that in these areas that we're discussing, they were correct. And let's talk about those issues.

01:53:46

You know, it's the kind of thing, well, look at Calvin and Servetus in that situation. It's like, great, cool.

01:53:51

I mean, I don't, to be honest, like, I don't know whose fault that might've been or if he was right or wrong in doing it, but it's irrelevant to the truth of the perspective.

01:54:00

And so I think we want to be able to focus on the issue of truth, not so much whether these people were infallible in their beliefs or this, that, or the other thing.

01:54:08

We really need to learn how to refocus discussions so that we don't waste our time debating issues that really are not of great consequence.

01:54:15

Kind of when you're discussing things with a Jehovah's Witness. I mean, the first thing, when they knock on your door, you can be like, man, you guys don't celebrate birthdays.

01:54:22

Let's talk about that for an hour. Well, you can do that, but you're not really going to get anywhere because you're not focusing on the heart of the issue, right?

01:54:28

So we want to be able to refocus the discussion on what really matters, and it's really irrelevant whether Luther or Calvin, you know, were faulty in one area or the other.

01:54:39

The issue is, were they teaching truth in those areas that matter? That's exactly why we believe in sola scriptura, not sola

01:54:47

Calvin or sola Luther. Right. And we might readily respond to them,

01:54:55

I guess that liberal mainline Protestantism is right because Pope Francis agrees with them on so much.

01:55:04

Right. We might say, I guess Universalists are correct because Pope Francis agrees with them on a lot of things.

01:55:11

You know, I mean, it doesn't make any sense to use that as an argument. Of course, especially

01:55:16

Luther had no interest in leaving the Roman Catholic Church. He fled for his life, and therefore there's going to be a lot more retention of things from his

01:55:28

Catholic past, more baggage. And even Calvin, who was so closely connected to that era, had more

01:55:36

Catholic baggage than we would care to admit, but he was further along in the

01:55:41

Reformation process than Luther was. And then we, of course, as Reformed Baptists, think that we went even further in the right direction in shedding even more

01:55:50

Catholic baggage. Right. I mean, these men were products of their time.

01:55:56

I mean, we can't, you know, when someone says, hey, you know, I'm a child of the Reformation, we can't just assume that that means that they were exactly like us, you know, coming hundreds of years later, you know.

01:56:06

I think it was a process and people came to various understandings and had to sharpen their views and reshape their views.

01:56:11

So we need to keep that into consideration. Well, I want you to spend right now about 90 seconds just to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:56:22

Well, it really is the issue of the gospel. As Protestant Christians who believe that we are correct that on the issues of the gospel, we need to, from an apologetic stand, understand what the gospel is and be able to effectively communicate that, bringing out the important differences with those whom we disagree,

01:56:43

Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, people who have a different gospel. And so we can't really communicate effectively unless we understand our own position.

01:56:52

We need to study and show ourselves approved, and we need to do this in a fashion that is consistent with the conduct that the scriptures calls us to use.

01:57:00

We're to set apart Christ as Lord in our heart, always being ready to give a reason for the hope that's in us, yet doing so with gentleness and respect.

01:57:07

And I stress that, given the fact that Protestants and Catholics have such a rough history, it's so easy to get hot -headed over these issues.

01:57:14

We need to be able to have a cool head and to discuss these issues in a way that's honoring to Christ. Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have important websites.

01:57:23

First of all, the Historical Bible Society. Their website is historicalbiblesociety .org

01:57:31

historicalbiblesociety .org And our guest, Eli Ayala, is on the team for Historical Bible Society.

01:57:37

Massapequa Reformed Church, where the study, Protestant versus Catholic, doesn't matter, is being held tomorrow at 9 45 a .m.

01:57:46

Massapequa Reformed Church in Massapequa, Long Island. Their website is massreformedchurch .org

01:57:53

massreformedchurch .org Do you have any other contact information, Eli? Well, people can contact me.

01:57:59

I often give my own number out. I get random people calling me and asking questions. When I have ministry cards, it has that information, so people can feel free to call me directly.

01:58:10

My number is 631 -514 -5439 if you have a question or a comment or anything like that.

01:58:16

Also, just as a quick plug, I'm starting a website. It's not official yet, but it will be called

01:58:21

Revealed Apologetics, and it will emphasize the promotion of presuppositional apologetics, as represented by folks like Cornelius Van Till and Greg Bonson.

01:58:31

So if anyone's interested in that kind of apologetic methodology, that'll be coming out in a little bit, and I'll keep people informed.

01:58:39

Also, on May 20th, at our church, we're having a missionary who is a missionary to the Apache Indians coming and speaking at our church.

01:58:46

So if anyone finds that somewhat interesting, May 20th, he'll be coming down and sharing.

01:58:52

Our regular church services are Sunday, beginning at 10 a .m.

01:58:58

And so anyone's welcome to swing by us there if they don't have a church or they're looking for a church. Amen.

01:59:04

And I just want to thank you so much for being our guest today, Eli. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

01:59:10

I apologize to everyone whose questions we did not have time to ask and answer. I hope you all have a blessed, safe, and happy weekend and a blessed

01:59:19

Lord's Day this Sunday. And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater