The Ministry of the Holy Spirit in the OT

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ. Based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

Pastor Steve. Hi. Are you to me? Hi, Pastor Mike. So that makes me

Boots, right? You're Dora and I'm Boots. I don't really know much about Dora.

Tell me. I know a lot about Dora. See, when I had little children, I knew about Barney and Veggie Tales and even the

Catholic Donut Man. Did you know the Donut Man's Catholic? I did not know that. Yeah. Life without Jesus is like a donut.

Like a donut. Yeah. Because you have a hole in your life. When I, you know, when we had, when our kids were young, it was the

Care Bears and different, you know, you don't know the Care Bears. And see, it's the same thing now, you know, this, well,

Dora's kind of even old, but the kids were watching like YouTubes of Dora and I'm like, who's

Dora the Explorer? Well, now I know who Dora the Explorer is because, you know, the girls all went through that phase and Dora the

Explorer just kind of runs around. She's kind of helping animals and helping people and, you know, just solving real simple problems.

But she has her sidekick, Boots the Monkey, and they, they speak Spanglish. It's mostly

English with a little bit of, you know, Spanish thrown in. See, I did not know that. So there's a little, a you the may and that kind of thing, you know.

Okay. Spanglish. Well, when I was a younger father,

Barney was really big and we needed to get some extra money to get us through seminary. And Kim and another friend at Grace Community Church bought a $500

Barney outfit. It looked real. And they would do these purple dinosaur parties because you couldn't say

Barney because probably copyright infringement. Probably so, yeah. And they'd go typically to pretty bad parts of town in Los Angeles and have this party and then they'd make $100 for an hour.

See, I thought you were going to say they go to churches on Easter Sunday and get there. See, I'm usually the one that makes you guffaw with insider info, except now it's the opposite.

Oh, sorry. Anyway, once Kim's partner could not attend.

So she said, you know, I, Kim, will do all the coordinating and stuff. And Mike, just you be in the

Barney outfit. Oh, great. It was awful. It was like, it wouldn't fit. Stuck on my head.

I'm Barney. What is it? Does Barney even say anything? I love you. You love me.

It was awful. I mean, I grew up with more of a Johnny Quest kind of mentality. Yeah. I like Johnny Quest.

Yeah. Getting taken, you know, hostage. My all time. Yes. Race. And those guys.

Yeah, Joe Race. Joe Bannon. Oh, Joe Bannon. Yeah. And my favorite of number two cartoon was

Space Ghost. Oh, yeah. Man, those were good. Really good. What was it? They had a monkey named

Boots, I think. No. But they did have a monkey in Space Ghost. Yeah, but I don't remember. Space Ghost.

Yeah. You can YouTube some of those. Yes, you can. A lot of good stuff on YouTube. When I watch those,

I think about earnestly contending for the faith. You have to fight for what's right. Hmm. Well, there's today's spiritual lesson, boys and girls.

By the way, if you want to be in a band, it's probably not good for your health. Didn't the

Megadeth drummer just die this week and the Beastie Boys singer died and all these people?

It reminds me of a Jim Carroll song or something. They were just people who died. They died. The worst song ever written.

I can't believe, you know, critics, this is why you should never listen to critics, by the way. The Jim Carroll band, the critics said, he's awesome.

He's the best ever. And then you hear like one song and you're going, this isn't even music.

I think they tried to make him out to be the modern day Lou Reed who you can't really sing, but it was this edgy attitude where you talk sing.

Yeah. Right. You talk sing thing. Steve, off the air just prior to the show, we were talking about an installation service for an elder we had, an ordination exam set of questions.

And so you and I were on a panel and we were asking questions. And you said to me afterwards, the only time

I felt bad for Pardeep, the candidate, was when? Now remember, we ask all kinds of questions and I don't think there was any progression, eternal sonship progressions or Phil O 'Keefe.

No, no. I mean, the questions weren't really, they weren't terrible. You know, I mean, they were difficult, difficult enough to where, you know,

I'm sure a lot of people, because there was a pretty good crowd, especially for a Sunday evening. And I'm sure a lot of people were just like, man,

I'm glad I'm not up there. You know, this is tough. Let me interrupt you just for a second. I did find out something two days ago that was wonderful.

Scott Goddard is a deacon here and a wonderful servant with he and his wife. And he teaches a

Sunday school class. I want to say it's fifth and sixth graders, maybe it's eighth and ninth, I'm not sure. And his

Sunday school this last Sunday was going over all the questions that the students didn't understand at the ordination exam and then finding the answers.

That is good, huh? That was smart. He's one smart cookie. He is a pretty smart guy. I'll definitely give him that.

And lots of questions were asked of Pradeep, and you said you didn't really feel sorry for him until...

Well, until we were talking about, basically, I think the question had to do with, you know, please explain the activities of the

Holy Spirit with regard to Old Testament saints, you know. And it was just like, and, you know, he kind of got quiet and then he got quieter and, you know, to the point where I felt like I could hear his heartbeat and his breathing, you know, and I was beginning to get a sense of what his blood pressure was, you know, and I mean, it was quiet in there.

Well, Steve, I think, especially as you have been seated on that proverbial hot seat, when someone asks you a question, and even in pastoral ministry and in life, when people ask you a question, if you know why they're asking the question, it helps.

But here we're just throwing out one thing to the next to the next. The only thing in common is it has to do with theology, the

Bible, God, His Word. And then just to get that thrown out, you know, if we said, is there any continuity between the ministry of the

Holy Spirit and the Old Testament and the New, then he would know where to go. Is it possible for a spiritually corrupt

Old Testament unbeliever like Abraham to come to faith without the ministry of the

Holy Spirit? He would know where to go. But we're just throwing these things out, these 95 -mile -an -hour fastballs, and here he is.

Pete And then a knuckle curve, you know, at 65. Pete That's right. So, we were talking just before the show about the ministry of the

Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. When you have to explain that, what are some of the pitfalls that you need to avoid and resources and ideas and what do you do?

Pete Well, I think some of the pitfalls I want to avoid is, you know, the typical, I'll just say, you know, dispensational view that there's a complete difference.

You know, that somehow the Old Testament saints were saved maybe in an even, in a different way, but that definitely the ministry of the

Holy Spirit was totally unique that he would just visit Old Testament believers and then leave.

You know, that there was no abiding presence, and now there's a problem with that. And the problem is, well, how did

Old Testament believers obey God? How did they ever obey him?

And if your answer is, by their own strength, you know, kind of the proverbial solo bootstrapsa, well, then you're left to say, well, okay, so you're really telling us that people who are dead in their sins and trespasses or who have nothing good in them at the very least apparently have something good in them.

You know, I mean, in other words, where does that come from? Where does the ability to obey come from?

If it comes from something in us, then we've suddenly changed our whole gospel thinking, our methodology and everything, because now we've turned into the

Pelagian, you know, where we could appeal to the righteousness of men to believe.

Pete Steve, when you have a problem that you have to solve, don't you regularly, and this is a rhetorical question, don't you regularly say, let's go with what we know and then begin to build that foundation, so then when we finally get to the top of that building, we have a sturdy undergirding.

And so that's exactly what you started to do, where you would say, okay, and I will add this, we believe that the

Holy Spirit didn't start at Pentecost, right? He is the eternal third person, the

Trinity, the Father, the Son, the Spirit, God subsisting in three persons, and what was he doing in the

Old Testament? So he was around, he was alive, obviously, he existed is a better word, and so we're just building those foundations, and he was there in creation, and then all of a sudden after the fall, to reiterate what

Steve said, how could anybody come to faith in Yahweh without the ministry of the

Holy Spirit? Without faith, it's impossible to please God, and there's no way anybody could possibly please

God, and then when we realize faith is a gift, he's got to be quickened, he's got to be regenerated, and all those things, it's just impossible.

Depravity demands the Spirit of God's activity in the life of every Old Testament believer.

Pete So, I mean, basically, you come up with the notion that either the New Testament is giving us brand new information about the

Holy Spirit and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, or that we're just coming to a more full understanding of what the

Holy Spirit's always been doing. Paul And some of this, along those same lines, Steve, we have progressive revelation in scripture.

So, now we have the complete canon and we can look back and say, okay, Abraham. Abraham, we've learned from, of course,

Genesis 12, 15, 17, 21, but from Romans 4, God granted him belief and he believed in Yahweh as Yahweh had revealed himself, and he was declared righteous.

Abraham was a believer, but how did he one day go from worshiping the moon god in Ur, howling at the moon almost, and then now say, no, there's only one

God? Pete How do you go from being Warren Zeevon to Abraham? Paul Because spiritually, he was like the headless

Thompson gunner. Pete But I mean, you said it earlier, you know,

Hebrews 6 says without, or Hebrews 11, sorry, and I think it is about verse 6 says, you know, without faith it is impossible to please

God. And it goes on by faith, by faith, by faith. Well, okay, now how did all those

Old Testament believers obtain their faith? Because we say it was on their, you know, they examined the facts.

And they decided, you know, out of their own moral neutrality. Paul Yes, everything was equal.

Paul Steve, I think when we approach this problem, if dispensationalism seeps in, let's just call it ultra or uber dispensationalism seeps in, we might have a little, we will have more discontinuity.

And if Arminianism seeps in, and sometimes dispensationalists are Arminians, not always, then we're going to have some more discontinuity.

Describe to our listeners, when we talk about discontinuity and continuity, what's the playing field there?

What are we referring to? Pete Well, we're talking about Old Testament, New Testament, you know, did God operate in a dramatically different way in the

Old Testament than he does in the New Testament, you know, or is it similar? And, you know, if you're covenantal, you'll say that he operated in exactly the same way.

If you're - Paul Or at least more continuity. Pete Right, right. But I mean, it's kind of a spectrum. So, you know, on one side, you'll have covenantal and the other end, you'll have, you know, uber dispensational.

And, you know, as you move more towards the middle, there'll be more or less continuity, you know, depending on where you, but it's definitely a spectrum of like a one to 10 on one side or negative 10, you know, and then zero to 10 on the other side.

So, we think that the Holy Spirit, we know he existed in the Old Testament and for anyone to get saved, it had to be his job to, or his prerogative to regenerate.

And if anybody wanted to say no to sin in the Old Testament, could they do that on their own? I mean, yes to righteousness, the

Spirit of God had to be dealing with those people in a soteriological way. That's got to be a fact, yes?

Oh, on a side note, this first came to light to me when I was in seminary, when I had

George Zemeck, Dr. Zemeck talk about continuity between the

Old Testament, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and new. And he had us read a book by Leon Wood.

I think it was the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. Pete Which is sitting on my desk right now. Pete Is it?

Pete Yes. Pete Amazing. And if you don't have that book, I just sent this out to the elders the other day.

Were Old Testament believers indwelt by the Spirit? By Robert McCabe, professor of Old Testament at Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary in Allen Park, Michigan.

And I think McCabe does at a scholastic level, at a scholarly journal level. These are the issues, and here's how we have to think about this properly.

A good overview. I really liked it. And what he's basically saying is, forget dispensationalism,

Arminianism and all that stuff. Let's look at some of the words like indwelt. In other words, were the

Old Testament believers indwelt by the Spirit? Was there just an abiding presence? I think Walvoord uses that word, abiding presence.

I was taught, and you know this because it's just one of my favorite things to say. I don't remember much of seminary, but I do remember this, that the

Holy Spirit's ministry in the Old Testament was a permanent, abiding, soteriological presence, but leaving room for the corporate indwelling that would happen when the church started.

Yeah, I don't remember what I, I mean, all I remember is talking about the, my favorite

Old Testament Holy Spirit deal was the eternal spiration of the

Spirit. I'd say that's what I, I remember hearing that and just going, I have never heard of that before in my life.

Steve, to this day, I remember you had a book promo advertisement and it was one of those deals like with CDs or albums or eight tracks, you buy 10, you get one free, these book clubs.

And there were some theological books there. And you asked me about, I think it was Grant Osborne's, the hermeneutical spiral.

Yeah, I remember that. I remember that day. Yeah. What did I say? You said something like, you know, well, you know, that wouldn't be quite where we are or something like that.

I'm like, yeah, it was kind of like, yeah, don't get that one. And now looking back, there is a hermeneutical spiral in terms of exegesis influencing theology and influencing hermeneutics and back and around, where do we stop and analogy of faith and everything.

But early on, that wasn't the most conservative hermeneutics book. And so, I didn't want you to read that.

Definitely not. Now, in the article by McCrae, where Old Testament believers indwelt by the spirit, he says something fascinating to me,

Steve, that the technical word indwelt or the biblical word indwelt is not used in either the

Old Testament or New Testament. It's not? It's not. Well, no

English words are used. It's like when the Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door, do you know the word

Trinity is not in the Bible? I mean, can you just think of about anything more ludicrous?

Yeah, well, did you know Jehovah's not in the Bible either? I know. You know, so, because it would be

Yahweh, not Jehovah. My favorite little snarky comeback line is, really, the word

Trinity is not in the Bible? I didn't even, I can't even find the word Bible in the Bible. Duh.

While reflecting an agreement with the fulfillment of both passages at Pentecost, I've argued that these texts do not refer to the

Spirit's permanent indwelling ministry in individual believers. Rather, I have suggested that they refer primarily to two new ministries of the

Spirit associated with Pentecost. John 7 looked forward to a baptism of the

Spirit that placed all believers into the body of Christ. Also connected with his baptism at Pentecost, the

Spirit anointed the apostles for their unique ecclesiastical position in the establishment of the foundation of the

Church. John 14 anticipated this apostolic anointing. So, that's the kind of stuff you get in the

McCabe article. It's pretty good. I like it. How about, how about if someone said, and this was said to me here,

Steve, before your day, I mean, you got here and you were the sheriff, you cleaned it up, but when I was here alone, I had a lot of work to do.

This person said to me, the reason why the Old Testament saints sinned so egregiously, right?

You got Abraham, not once, but twice. Hey, sleep with my wife, just don't kill me. David with Bathsheba.

I mean, pretty much anyone you look at, I mean, even Joseph, you know, how he was treating his brothers.

I don't think I can have anything on Daniel. I mean, Daniel did sin. We just, I don't really see it's recorded.

Dare to be Daniel. Job, you know, he had some kind of dopey things that he would go through. But anyway, this person said to me, you know this person,

Steve, I think the reason why these Old Testament saints sinned the way they did is they didn't have corporate indwelling.

They didn't have the Spirit of God in them because they rightly believed that the

Spirit of God would come upon Saul for an activity, come upon Samson to go kill the

Philistines, come upon David for a royal empowerment, and then

David says, take not your spirit from me. He's not saying I'm losing my salvation, but there was an upon preposition that was used regularly in the

Old Testament. And so, what did the Old Testament people do that didn't have the

Spirit of God upon them? Well, they just fell into all kinds of sin. What would you say to that? Pete Well, I'd say the heart is deceitful.

I mean, everybody, we all sin. You know, the question is, you know, you're talking about these gross sins or whatever, and I just think, well, okay, maybe they weren't believers.

Maybe they were believers who grossly sinned. I mean, this happens.

You know, you can ignore the Holy Spirit. There can be fire alarms going off in your head and you still do the wrong thing.

I mean, people, that's just what people do. Pete McRae says, some dispensationalists argue that the

Old Testament believers were not universally and permanently indwelt by the Spirit, but that based primarily upon passages such as John 7 and John 14, only

New Testament believers were permanently indwelt after Pentecost. In restricting indwelling to New Testament saints,

Walvoord states, quote, while filled with the Spirit, Old Testament saints could in one sense be considered also indwelt, but not in the permanent, unchanging way revealed in the

New Testament. Pete So, they were indwelt, but it would change. So, well,

I mean, I think what he was saying is, you know, you could be one percent filled or you could be a hundred percent filled, but there was always some abiding presence of the

Spirit, but it would vary. And I don't know if you got up in the morning and rolled two ten -sided dice to discover what your percentage for the day was.

Pete See, Walvoord was smart. He's a smart man, and he knew the Spirit of God had to influence these

Old Testament saints in some way, but I think he's trying to reserve something special for the church.

Pete Yes, trying to reserve something special for Pentecost and, you know, not Dwight Pentecost, but the day of Pentecost.

Jared But Grace says, Indwelling is a theological term that encapsulates biblical truth about the

Spirit's influence whereby he causes the believer to experience the blessings and operations of divine grace.

In order to determine if the Spirit's indwelling ministry is restricted only to New Testament believers, the

New Testament data will be initially evaluated. And that's when he goes through and deals with the two main passages,

John 7 and John 14. We don't have time to examine them closely today, but we want to refer you to this good article.

Is there a Jim Hamilton book out there? I think he's got a more dispensational Arminian view, which surprised me.

Pete It's got a gold cover, and I'm trying to think of the name of it, but yeah. Jared What's the name of that series?

Pete It's not the mentor series, it's the, I could go grab it off my shelf.

But he has, he, you know, he shows a whole spectrum. Jared That chart is really good. That's the best thing in the book.

Pete Yeah. It's a really, it's a really good chart. But it just kind of shows a different spectrum of belief about the

Holy Spirit. And I didn't read it prior to coming over here this morning.

I know. Well, the good news is when I sit down to do a show, while I don't really know where I'm going specifically, generally,

I just have a stack of paper here and you just follow along. Jared Well, that's why I get paid the big bucks.

Pete It's interesting about justification by works regarding Abraham in Romans 4.

I mean, my default is always, all right, how were Old Testament saints saved? And Romans 4,

I think, has to be the default, right? You can go to other passages, of course, and you could see in Hebrews 11, et cetera, if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

For what does Scripture say? Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. And as to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

And so, how can you believe in something that you don't believe in? And one day you just go, you know what?

Now I do believe that. Pete Well, I was even thinking as you were talking about this earlier, you know, you think about Romans 5, the sin entered into all men, you know, after Adam.

And so, all these Old Testament men were infected. They had original sin in them. They had no goodness.

They were dead in their sins and trespasses as Ephesians 2 says. Romans 6 says that they were slaves to sin.

You know, all these things were true until they were saved. All the

Old Testament saints had to be saved by faith. You know, again, Hebrews 11, all these things are all true.

And so, the only difference is, or the only thing we really have to understand is what was the difference in the work of the

Holy Spirit after Pentecost? What changed? You know, Jesus said he was going to send a new comforter.

Well, is the office of comforter, is that the difference? You know, what is the difference? Jared Yeah, in my mind,

I think there is a permanent abiding soteriological presence, call it indwelling if you like, for the Old Testament and new, and then

I reserve a special corporate indwelling for Pentecost. Pete Okay. Jared There you go. Mike Avendroth, Steve Cooley.

Oh, we're going to Reformation Tour May 20th to 30th. Email us if you'd like to go,

Geneva, Wittenberg, and Zurich. Pete That's 2017. That's right.

We'll see you next time.