Should Women Who Murder Their Unborn Children Be Drawn and Quartered? Part 2

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January 26, 2022

EPISODE SUMMARY In this episode we continue our conversation on abortion interacting with some common questions about the moral culpability of women who kill their children including but not limited to the question, "how old should a women who gets an abortion be before she should be charged with a capital crime?"

How Can I Change? Part 3: Take Responsibility for Your Sin

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01:25: And welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry
01:30: We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age -old question
01:36: Should women who murder their unborn children be drawn and quartered part two now obviously, this is the
01:44: Second episode that we're doing on abortion. And like I said last week I just had a lot more questions that I really wanted to get to and and give them justice give us time to talk through them and and Tim for you to Answer a lot of them and not feel rushed or this episode be, you know, a four hour long episode so we're going to Continue our discussion on abortion and just talk through Some more some more areas of discussion about this that we didn't really get to cover and really
02:18: I just wanted to start Tim by By clarifying something that we didn't really clarify in the first episode we we kind of alluded to this a few different ways but never really addressed it head -on one of the one of the stories that you told as a part of a response to a
02:38: Question I had asked you was you'd brought up a story about a young girl who I think was Maybe 13 maybe 14 who was going with her mom
02:49: To go get an abortion at an abortion clinic and you told a story about how you know you told her mom that she didn't love her and they went away and they didn't go in that day and One of the conclusions we came to in that first episode was that while no women don't need to be drawn and quartered
03:11: For getting an abortion. They do need to face capital punishment Meaning, you know death a death sentence from the government now in light of that idea
03:26: Knowing that there are people out there who are as young as you know, 13 probably 12, maybe even 11
03:35: Who are either thinking about they get into a situation where they're pregnant and they're either
03:41: Thinking about getting abortion or they're being pressured to get an abortion Does that mean that These young girls who are doing the same exact act
03:54: That that the adults are doing who we are saying do deserve the death penalty
04:00: Are we are we saying that girls that are that young also are equally deserving of the same penalty?
04:08: I think the answer to that question is a little bit complicated by the fact that It seems like the vast majority of states are going to require some sort of parental involvement as it relates to minors in general
04:22: So when we talk about, you know a woman getting an abortion one of the things to be clear about When we're talking about a woman getting an abortion
04:31: Should she be drawn and quartered the topic of that is, you know, the answers that are given are related to Essentially an adult woman.
04:40: That's the person that has in mind now in general You know the vast majority of women getting abortions.
04:46: Anyways, they're going to be adult women that scenario of the 13 year old girl is a scenario that happens, but it's not necessarily a
04:55: Very likely it's not a very frequent situation, but it and that kind of thing can happen
05:01: But but often these kind of discussions, it's you know that kind of girl who's been you know
05:06: Raped raped by a family member or something like that that's brought forward as the ultimate You can't punish woman kind of card
05:13: As far as that goes, but then we think about the statistics in general in in the
05:19: US about 50 % of u .s women obtaining abortion are younger than 25 % and then about 33 % of all abortions make up are made up of women from 20 to 24 years old and Then teenagers are about 17 %
05:37: So there's a pretty wide range on the teenager one, but that scenario can happen But then when we're talking about capital punishment, we are talking about for adults now,
05:46: I think The situation of a teenager is a bit complicated because We do happen to live in the kind of society that is advancing the age of adulthood in somewhat of an arbitrary way
06:04: To be higher and higher and higher and so we don't really consider People to be adults until the age of 18, but then you know, you have to be 21 years old to drink and Per I can't what is the laws related to tobacco?
06:20: Is it the same 21 or is it? I'm pretty sure tobacco is 18, but it might not be
06:28: I might be wrong on that Well many many a person has pointed out the absurdity of Of an 18 year old being able to go fight for his country
06:35: But not be able to purchase alcohol as far as that goes and so we have some strange, you know laws related to the age of an adult now,
06:45: I mean for the Jews The Jews thought that and there's no, you know age of adulthood in the
06:51: Bible per se but there are some passages that are related to this, but the Jews thought that essentially, you know
06:58: Son or a daughter who reached the age of 13. They had their bar mitzvah or their bar mitzvah
07:05: And they are legally at that point considered a son or daughter of the Torah So their age of adulthood was much younger than we have today
07:13: And and I think one of the things that's happened is, you know adulthood is being delayed in terms of just practice and in terms of just our own perspective of things that we infantilize people for a
07:26: Great number of years, but then it's one of those things that when when you have like someone like Kyle Kyle Renton house going in Situations that happened with with that He's being tried as an adult because I think he was 17 years old at the time.
07:44: And so we you know, there are certain situations that can happen where we think that Even if someone's not a legal adult, they're morally capable and conscious as far as that goes
07:55: And so I think we have a fairly complicated system of And our country related to a great variety of things and so I wouldn't want to say in some simplistic way in all scenarios that any woman who ever gets an abortion for any reason should be
08:12: You know the subject of capital punishment, however And I'm thinking of just young women who are
08:23: Young women who are very young, you know that kind of thing barely past the age of puberty who are
08:30: In some sense being forced to get an abortion Now there's always moral agency that's going to kick in at a certain point anyways
08:39: And I'm not trying to say that a woman who's 13 years old whose parents tell her that if she doesn't get the abortion
08:46: She's going to be kicked out of her house without any recourse or anything else and they're taking her to it
08:51: Taking her to go get it and threatened with all sorts of threats. I'm not trying to say that That kind of person and that kind of situation is not capable of making a moral choice, but whatever is happening.
09:04: It's it it's there is some issues of coercion that's Involved in that kind of scenario and that's a little bit more complicated than 20 year old person who is
09:17: Going of their own accord to get an abortion kind of scenario. So I think there's a there's there's no simplistic answer that I kind of question about how young a person should be but I would say that The you know, biblically speaking if you're gonna say hey, when does a person become a murderer?
09:36: well a person becomes a murderer when they When they have some intention to kill the baby inside of them and and you know that didn't even
09:46: Require that they understand the baby to be a human if that makes sense. What do you mean?
09:51: What do you mean? Well? Well, I mean You know just to give some sort of scenario that might be helpful
10:00: I mean the Jews didn't consider are the Germans didn't consider the Jews to be people.
10:06: Mm -hmm, right? And they exterminated them or you know, there's you know, white people during certain parts of our history didn't consider based on evolutionary assumptions black people to be
10:19: Human or they consider them to be some sort of subhuman race as far as that goes but just because you might be fully convinced that particular people class of people is subhuman or Non -human does not make the act itself
10:35: Not murder, right So it doesn't totally resolve around your understanding of what's happening in the moment as far as that goes
10:43: It's it but it does, you know, a definition of murder does include intentionality there as distinct from you know homicide
10:50: So I think it's complicated. I think you know you one of the things that you don't do is you don't ever apply
10:56: Capital punishment and retroactively if that makes sense. Mm -hmm So the law is meant to be a curb towards immorality and a good scenario to think through here would be the issue of Cain so Cain commits the first murder and He's not put to death, right?
11:13: But he's not put to death because there's no law that formally that you know Put a punishment for it as far as that goes but then shortly, you know in the in the narrative you have a capital punishment kind of thing that is put forward, you know
11:30: Whoever kills Cain will be Avenged to be taken upon him sevenfold, right? So apart from the law there, you know, you don't apply it retroactively
11:38: But once the law set down then everyone's held accountable to that and so I would be in favor of you know
11:44: Having a law that's put down That you know would be younger than 18 for sure
11:51: You know women are more than capable making that kind of moral decision before the age of 18
11:56: And if they're not it's like an absolute, you know indictment on our society and On us now,
12:03: I think from a biblical speaking when a person becomes It's a put, you know when a person should be considered an adult is a lot lower than what we think right?
12:11: So God God sees Israel pictured in in the Old Covenant as a young woman
12:18: Who's in the desert and basically naked and and God comes and you know cleans her up and gives her some clothes and all that But it says behold.
12:26: She was at the time of love Essentially and it says her breasts were formed and basically like that what that saying is that you know from God's perspective
12:35: Like women when they go through puberty, they're at the time of love meaning they're at the age. They're ready to be married
12:41: So the Bible's perspective of what an adult is is a lot sooner than what we are
12:46: And I mean I can just think back from my own experience and know that I had significantly more moral awareness
12:53: At you know During my teen years and even young teen years and what people think is possible, you know, they're a bit
13:00: Naive as far as that goes and so I you know, I wouldn't be in favor of you know Applying some retroactive law that wouldn't go backwards and you know
13:09: Take care of all the murders that have happened at this point, but I would be in favor of capital punishment going forward.
13:14: That was You know Going to be enforced In a society that is
13:24: For people a lot younger than 18, you know when it comes down to it But it's not the kind of thing that you can do overnight
13:30: By any means you have to get there's some time to get there as far as it goes yeah, it seems like the question is
13:39: Really complicated overall, especially when you think about kind of on the other end of the spectrum, you know abortion at this point is such a
13:50: I Don't want to say popular. That's not necessarily the right word, but such a well -known thing in our society
13:57: That that really I wouldn't even be that surprised if people especially girls who are much younger
14:05: Understand what an abortion actually is or at least you know
14:10: Why there's such controversy around abortion then they would have maybe 20 years ago
14:18: Right and so So it seems hard to on the other end of the spectrum maybe say that They would just absolutely have no idea at the age of 13
14:31: What an abortion was just because it's so prevalent in our society and it's kind of hard to avoid that topic
14:41: Now that yeah, yeah, I think I think that would be You know, I think it's like a different like if you're dealing with some kind of scenario where you know the
14:52: The child doesn't even know what you know You have some really young girl who was raped by their father and you know the parents are hush -hush about it, you know something like that and then they're like They they get her to you know, take a pregnancy test
15:07: She doesn't even know what a pregnancy test is at that point in her life or something like that And the test comes back positive just like they suspected because you know
15:14: She started throwing up in the morning shortly after that and that kind of thing So they got take the test and then you know, they bring her over to the clinic and it's pretty hush -hush they have some sort of agreement worked out where she's not going to be told about anything and that kind of thing and then you know, they
15:32: You know do some sort of procedure Without her really having much knowledge about it.
15:37: I'm obviously in that kind of scenario She doesn't even know what's happening, right? Right and she's not given the information.
15:45: She needs to make some sort of moral Decision but as you said, I mean, I think we're living in the kind of society right now we're that kind of scenario like that is the it's the kind of scenario that everyone puts forward as if it's like just What you're when you're talking about criminalizing abortion, that's what you're talking about.
16:01: But it's just like that's almost a very difficult situation
16:08: To even know, you know, and when I was looking at that girl who was like probably 13 or 14 going in there
16:13: I was looking at someone who seemed to have some sort of awareness about what was happening, right?
16:19: as far as I could, you know speculate from a distance, I mean I could be wrong on that but That you know, you do pick up on body language and things like that But I think yeah in this kind of time and particularly where you know you have some sort of requirement that an ultrasound happens and that kind of stuff and Yeah, I think there's a lot more awareness than that kind of, you know scenario
16:44: I'm describing anyways And the vast majority of situations, I'm sure but yeah Anyways, so I guess kind of following a similar vein to some of the things you had in that response
16:55: So you talked a lot about? Basically, I think a lot of people especially
17:01: On the left who are very much pro abortion. They like to pretend that there's a lot of a lot of really morally justifiable reasons for abortion and Primarily, I think they're kind of things that they try to use to emotionally manipulate people
17:22: And and kind of make people out to look Almost like some kind of you know, super villain or something like Like oh, how could you ever, you know push this on anyone?
17:35: But you know, they they use examples like you like you had said, you know The father the father rapes the daughter right and then she it turns out she gets pregnant
17:47: Which is obviously a horrific Thing to ever have to go for anyone to ever have to go through But then oftentimes the the tactic is to take instances like that and pretend that that is what happens the majority of the time and that's why the majority of abortions happen and I don't have the statistics in front of me right now, but I know that Statistically those types of things are very very low rape and incest are like less than a percent right what's reported, right?
18:22: And so to also say things like, you know Planned Parenthood provides like all sorts of other, you know family planning services besides abortions
18:32: But you know, it's abortions are 95 94 percent of what they do, right, right So yeah, they have to put you're against women's health care, you know
18:40: I remember they put out a graphic maybe at the beginning of Last year 20 20 20 and You know,
18:54: I was just looking at the number of you know of Like essentially, you know prenatal health care that they had that they had given to patients who had been coming in for that type of thing and And then, you know you compare that to the number of abortions they perform and it's not even close
19:17: I mean, it's not even close So so if you're if your argument is from you know, this type of position
19:25: You're basically just living in a pretend world Or or you're being incredibly dishonest on purpose, but I just want to kind of give some time
19:35: Because I know that people will have those objections So dedicate some time to addressing those things
19:41: So I guess where we'll start first is just you know, is there? one of the most common ones
19:48: I hear now is is Hey, look, some people aren't ready to have kids and not not necessarily meaning.
19:57: Hey, I'm not, you know, mentally ready I'm not emotionally ready. Whatever. They're they're primarily meaning financially. I'm not financially ready
20:05: To have a child and so I got an abortion Instead and for you to deny me that right to get an abortion
20:13: Is to you know, deny my my health care options as a woman. So So, what do you think, you know, according to scripture?
20:22: Do you think that there can be made allowances for the person who's saying? Hey, look, I'm not financially ready
20:28: I can't take on this child. So it should be legal and it should be morally, right?
20:34: For me to kill this baby before it's born Yeah, man,
20:40: I think you know at every single point all these words are being used in in ways that are doing violence to their very meaning so, you know, it's an attack on my
20:49: Health as a woman to not allow me to kill a child because I'm not financially ready. Well, you know what?
20:56: Typically, you know, this is this you consider this a health care issue And now we're talking about mental health or you know, emotional health or whatever else.
21:05: We're just doing violence to words As far as I need a safe space for my language right, so we're living in bizarro world there where words just mean the opposite of what they normally mean, but yeah,
21:19: I think that's a that's a That kind of calculus is
21:24: You know It feels like it's just so far from a biblical worldview in so many ways and part of the part of the reason why is because you know, one of the things that you have happening is is that You know, it's never right to kill someone
21:40: So you have you know basic moral intuition that Christian have Christians have which is that two wrongs don't make a right?
21:47: And part of the whole lex talion is principle an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth life for life Like that you have principle of retributive justice and one of the you know
21:57: Morally justified reasons for killing someone is not because they're gonna put you in a be putting you in a bad financial situation, right?
22:05: It's so whatever's going on there, you know, you have a rejection of what justice is, right?
22:11: So someone raped me or you know, it's gonna be a you know, poor financial situation Therefore I'm gonna kill someone, you know
22:17: That doesn't fly in any other area of life and we all know it now Part of the reason why that gained some sort of traction is because you know, we've adopted it the egalitarian notion essentially that Everyone, you know basically deserves the same standard of living if that makes sense
22:35: And so if there are inequalities in the world Then those inequalities must be fixed so that everyone's equal and one of the things that we know is that you know single motherhood is a
22:46: Great prediction of poverty in general and so if you want to know the you know, the major Like the overwhelmingly the major Contributor to poverty.
22:57: It's the presence of you know, single -parent households Mm -hmm And so you have a woman who's you know Trying to be a career woman live the
23:04: American dream go to college go to school do all this stuff so she can get a Career so she can make money and have stability you know independently of some sort of man and then she gets pregnant and and like that essentially has
23:17: It's going to be a major roadblock to her financial success apart from a man in the future if that makes sense
23:24: Mm -hmm, and so in general, you know, it used to be that women, you know got married and then
23:31: The biblical ethic is you get married then you have a baby So you don't have sex before you get married because you know shock you make may get pregnant, right?
23:38: Mm -hmm Well now what what's happened is, you know post -sexual revolution sex is considered a right a basic right and it can happen whenever you want it
23:45: But so you have the right to express your sexuality however you want But then you we want desperately to remove all the consequences of that through abortion birth control pills and everything else and so but the problem is that you can't really fight
23:59: God's design there and so essentially You Do have premarital sex you're rolling the dices and you know, a baby might be part of that calculus and then
24:12: Then you know what gasps Like yeah, obviously that if you go down down that route the
24:19: Bible would call you a fool Right. Mm -hmm and a sinner and the problem is that it's just like yeah that that you're gonna you know
24:27: You're gonna sell what you reap right you're gonna reap what you sow so like the issue then is it yeah that is gonna be a predictor of poverty, but then you shouldn't have
24:35: Done that if you didn't want to bear those consequences, but then why does killing someone justify it?
24:42: You know Well, it doesn't right mm -hmm now what about that you kind of mentioned this already but Is the is the rape victim any different in your eyes?
24:55: So this isn't the person who went out and willingly, you know consented to sex with another person
25:05: This is the person who didn't consent to sex Do do they have the same kind of moral standard applied to them or is it different because they were raped?
25:16: Well, yeah, this is something we talked about last episode and it just seems like that people don't have any category for What you have is you have just an oversimplification of what
25:27: Victimhood actually entails right and so we live in a world that's clambering all over itself to try to identify people as victims
25:34: But then once you get that coveted victim label, you know, you essentially have all moral responsibility removed from you and so it's it's like it's
25:43: Really kind of ridiculous way of viewing the world that you can you know, once you get a victim label
25:50: You're almost like Sainted at that point right nothing you
25:55: I mean, it's like, you know, just imagine yourself living in Alabama Alabama, right and it's like when you get that victim label.
26:03: I mean, you're essentially Nick Saban, you know Everyone would love that everyone would love to be
26:10: Nick Saban. I mean you can be done if you're an Auburn fan I guess while they're still winning
26:15: I guess while they're winning gear, you know, you functionally you could do no wrong, right? And no one could conceive of you're doing anything wrong at that point once you get that label, you know
26:24: Cuz that label just gives you an all -purpose Yeah, your royal excuse Yeah, I mean, it's just absurd.
26:32: That's not the way the world works So it's possible to be both a victim and a villain at the same time and it's and and I mean
26:39: You know any number of people I mean you just just imagine, you know you're you're a guy and you walk in on your wife having an affair or something like that and then you
26:49: Pop the gun. Yeah, you shoot you shoot them both, right? Mm -hmm. Are you a victim?
26:54: Sure, right? but I mean we all know that that's not the appropriate response to Being a victim, but the only problem the problem is that that only works if you're a man
27:08: Does that make sense? People are only able to make just normal moral
27:16: Calculations for people who like in those kind of situations where they're truly victimized when they're males
27:22: Are the ones who are victimized, you know when a female is victimized it's like it's an entirely different playbook and no one can understand and so I mean and if you try to you know, put the
27:33: Argument from the other side in the strongest terms. I mean, you know, the the argument is that well if you're raped by this guy
27:39: He's you know forcing you to have a baby that you did not consent to and everything revolves around consent and everything else
27:46: But then now it's like, you know, you have this baby in this you're gonna be very victimized your whole life, right?
27:51: you're gonna be re -victimized and so like essentially, you know every day you can be reminded of your rapist and by looking at the you know the fruit of your rapist and everything else and I think it's just you know, you know,
28:05: I know I'm not allowed to speak to that kind of scenario because I'm not a woman and all that but I Guess if I you know, what the transgender route and try to self -identify
28:15: I still wouldn't be because I wouldn't be identifying That's right. Let's I give the right answers, you know it's it's confusing, you know, it's confusing how this works, but But I still compete against them in sports though Yeah Right.
28:32: Well, there you go. At least that would be allowed but no no, I mean, I think we'd you know Part of the biblical ethic only makes sense
28:38: If you have a biblical God that's going to help you to live biblically, right? Mm -hmm. And so you take all that out
28:45: It's just like well yeah I can understand how an unbeliever might struggle with that the rest of their life and being traumatized by that for the rest of their life and and You know,
28:53: I understand how it could be that way but then I also understand how God tells You know Hosea to go love a prostitute who keeps on cheating on him and how
29:02: God can you know? put people in pretty hard situations and and Then you know not only help them to you know deal with it, but help them to excel at it, you know and if like there is a category of biblical love that Jesus loved us when we're unlovable and he gave himself up for Us when we're unlovable and God could give a mother
29:25: You know supernatural love And I don't even know that it's just abnormal. I mean all women have some sort of Love for their children, you know
29:38: You know and part of it's just you know Another thing that's going into that is just a psychological view of man that you know, man is basically just you know
29:47: You can imagine, you know all the the horror movies or whatever of the woman getting raped and she has a child and you know,
29:54: She's raising little Chuckie I Know But I mean that's kind of the thing that's put, you know, that's the kind of thing that it's just like oh man
30:07: Well, he's you know, he's got this serial killer kind of gene, you know, and he's gonna raise this little you know
30:15: Jeffrey Dahmer incarnate and baby, you know Who's you know have to sleep with one eye open their whole rest of her life because of all that but I mean
30:23: That's just not the way the world works, you know That's not the way it works
30:29: You know, she could love that kid, you know and teach him You know present
30:35: Christ to him and you know Take him to church and give him a different life and he doesn't maybe have to end up the way her, you know
30:43: Rapist ended up as far as that goes and you know what? she doesn't have to be a victim of that the rest of her life, you know,
30:48: God can heal her of that and comfort her with that and And and the only way that that's gonna work is if she looks in the mirror and says hey
30:55: I'm a sinner too, you know, and I need God to forgive me of my sin And I'm not just gonna hold on to this victim identity my whole life
31:02: You know, I'm not just gonna make that who I am the rape victim. I'm gonna have to say hey, you know what like I'm a sinner.
31:09: I need God's mercy This guy sinned against me but Jesus looked at the people putting him on the cross and he said father forgive him for they knew not what they
31:18: Did you know and they don't know what they're doing and and she could say the same thing if she had God in her
31:23: You know, but then when you live in a society, it doesn't have any kind of category for that kind of thing And so it doesn't make sense.
31:28: And so it's just like yeah That sounds you know horrible. So just kill the thing right, right.
31:34: It's like well, okay. Yeah, I Get it, you know pagan's gonna pagan, right?
31:40: Yeah, it's it's funny You know the the the people who are very much for abortion
31:48: They claim to also be the people who are for defending women Against their rapist, right?
31:56: right they that's kind of something that they pride themselves on is that they care more about the women and they claim that people who are
32:04: Pro -life are obviously much more about the the rapist that's not that's not you know word for word what the claim is, but They they do really put themselves as the person as the people championing
32:18: The rights of the rape victim, which is funny because that's like the opposite of what's happening and I remember our what
32:27: I mean is I remember watching in an Interview or I guess you maybe it was maybe more of a debate between Jeff Durbin and the guys that Apollo apologia ministries
32:39: On their podcast with a young lady who had comment who had commented on I guess one of their videos that was talking about abortion
32:49: So they had her on to the show. She wanted to come on and and and talk to them about these things and you know, she mentioned that she herself was a rape victim and She told a little bit about what happened to her and And then
33:06: I remember You know Jeff she was kind of floored when she asked what they thought
33:14: Should happen to her rape victim because first they had asked her and she she said to her rapist
33:20: Oh, yeah to her to a rapist. I mean and and first they had asked her what she thought should happen to her rapist and and It was pretty terrifying some of the things that she said it was pretty much like, you know
33:33: What you would imagine probably happened in like some Japanese POW camps during World War two
33:40: You know capturing Americans and and Chinese soldiers and what probably happened to a lot of them or or She was describing a lot of things that Sounded like they came straight out of one of those camps should happen to their rape their her rapist but then she asked
33:58: Jeff what he thought should have happened to her rapist and you know, his response was essentially hey, you know what if if It was proven that he really did rape you and and you reported it to the police who then took it to the court and a judge heard it and ruled that That he was guilty.
34:22: He did rape you then he should be put to death he should die at that by the government's hand and And that would be justice
34:31: For you, you know, and and she was kind of surprised that he said that but then the reality is that is
34:38: Justice for the rate the rape victim now, obviously it doesn't undo
34:43: What's already happened, right? But then you at least have the
34:50: The you know, I don't the comfort I don't know the right word, but there there is some resolution there at least knowing hey this person's going to Die for their actions, but then even beyond that if you even if that doesn't happen
35:09: We if you're a Christian, you know, hey Regardless of who gets away with what eventually one day we're all going to stand before God and God is a perfect judge who knows everything and And he will exact a perfect type of justice where people don't
35:29: Escape the consequence the consequences of their action If they're outside of Christ, right?
35:36: And and so it's you know, it's just funny to hear all of these people kind of have that as an argument
35:43: Hey, we we're the ones defending the the rights of the victim
35:49: Yeah, I think it's you know, part of the discussion is what do you do with a victim in general? and That's I mean, it's a very relevant
35:59: Discussion in general and I mean, I don't want to trivialize rape or something like that But the Bible talks about no temptations ever taking you but what's common to man?
36:07: like the problem is that you know, everyone knows what it's like to be abused in some sense and you know
36:13: I'm not trying to say that there should be no Differentiation of punishments or something like that I agree with Jeff and I what the
36:22: Bible says about you know If someone rapes someone they should be put to death and just like the other subject, you know
36:28: We can't apply that retroactively. We need to you know, make it a law if we're gonna reflect what the
36:33: Bible says and then You know going forward everyone will hear and fear and never again do such wickedness now that they've been warned, right?
36:40: But the thing is I okay We don't everyone's been victimized in some to some degree and and and it's symptom at what's happening
36:46: Is it symptomatic of a society that doesn't really know how to handle that? I mean, I was watching a podcast I think it was
36:56: Rush Rush Limbaugh went on some podcasts with you know, some brothers.
37:03: I can't remember I Can't remember what the podcast it was not a kind of podcast.
37:09: I would normally listen to but he went on there with with some black dudes and they were you know, basically trying to have a
37:16: Discussion with their political enemy or whatever But I think it was related to all the riots that were happening and trying to find some kind of common ground and he had
37:25: You know He had basically brought up at some point, you know, like hey, you know sometimes people like, you know
37:33: Just say things and don't you think that we need to just learn to get over like get over it when people are rude you know and and one of the guys on there and I wish
37:41: I could remember what he said exactly but You know, he's like well if someone says something, you know racist, you know, they should be made to punish
37:49: They should be punished for that. You know, there's in in Russia. What do you mean punish? You know and essentially like the guy was like what they say something mean, you know
37:58: They need to be made to stop, you know, it's like well, what if they don't stop? It's like what you need to call the police, right? Then I'm telling on you and and I mean
38:08: I think he even said like, you know If they won't stop you should punch them, you know and get It's like hey, wait a minute like You know like this this is where like you're living in the kind of society where like there once you like you attach
38:26: This victim label on something and someone like if someone says something you don't like you're gonna you're morally justified and punching them
38:33: Really, you know assaulting them and getting them thrown in jail and and you know shutting them up and it's like I think we're
38:40: Like you think about that related to the topic at hand. It's like we really don't understand
38:46: Forgiveness and we really don't understand how to deal with You know junk and life, you know and how to handle handle like Trials victimized.
38:58: Yeah and trials and difficulties and and part of it's just like the psychological literature at this point
39:03: It's just messing everyone up But I mean it's just like hey You don't have to just put this victim label on yourself and like be a victim your whole entire life and then just cope
39:12: You know, but like the abortion people I think they're helping women but they're turning them into professional victims who just start shackled to Like this offense and there's no hope for them like for the rest of their life
39:23: They're just shackled to this thing that they're unable to move on and it's like if they try to move on and say hey
39:30: You know if the woman comes along and says yeah. Hey, you know what it happened. I forgave him moved on It's like well, you're in denial, you know like, you know like you're you know, this is just symptoms of how victimized you actually are because you could just you know, turn the other cheek and move on and everything else and you know that's not right and you just Essentially the only hope for them is just to be shackled to their you know
39:54: To the offense for the rest of their life and permanently victimized. That's not that's not helping anyone. That's just turning them into You know a bitter
40:03: Angry unforgiving person the kind of person who's gonna spend eternity in hell, right?
40:09: Mm -hmm so Okay. Well, we've talked a lot about You know, what about?
40:18: Babies who are being born into poverty babies who are being born out of you know
40:28: Instance of rape what about Babies who are facing some form of deformity or severe health issue
40:41: You know when they're in the womb obviously we have we've advanced pretty significantly and we can detect a lot of these things before they ever
40:51: They're they're actually born So we kind of know ahead of time what they might be facing and what kind of treatments they might need and everything but then
41:02: For a lot of people this can be a reason to actually Kill the baby before it ever has to deal with any of those things.
41:09: So so what do you think about that? Do you think that that is a morally?
41:16: Acceptable reason To kill the baby before it's born
41:22: Yeah, I mean obviously not I mean, it's just another product of you know Egalitarian society where there's some sort of expectation that everyone has to be the same, you know and one of the things that we you know are caught
41:34: I mean They're constantly, you know, everyone's equally beautiful and everyone's you know, and everyone's you know
41:43: Equally special and wonderful and everything else and and you know Everyone has to have the same kind of stuff and you know, if you grow up in poverty then like my goodness
41:52: I mean you Like poverty even for American standards like everyone's money must be taken and given and balance everything out, you know
41:59: And so if you have a kid who's gonna be born with a disability then well, you know who wants to do that? So just you know kill the thing and get it over with or whatever.
42:06: But I mean my goodness like I our first child You know had a rough exit a cord wrapped around his neck and you know
42:16: The numbers that were given were really really low and the doctor came in shortly after that I mean he was flown by helicopter to a different hospital that was gonna be able to put him on a cooling bed to Limit the possible brain damage that he could have and we're told by the doctor that he you know there's a significant chance that he either is gonna die or have significant brain damage and You know what?
42:38: We didn't really think well, you might as well just kill him, you know Mm -hmm. No, I mean I remember looking, you know saying to God.
42:45: Hey Lord, we we wouldn't request this providence from you
42:51: Something along those lines and you know, I I wasn't I Don't desire that my son, you know have brain damage
42:59: But if that's your will help us to accept it. Mm -hmm. And I mean, that's what we prayed.
43:05: I mean, hey, you know You know nevertheless not my will but thine, you know, and so I mean that's not what
43:12: I wanted for him But if that's what was gonna happen, that's what's gonna happen and you know, we'll take it as it comes, you know but that's
43:19: I mean God spared us from that as far as that goes and I do consider that he spared us from that kind of outcome
43:27: No one wants their child to have brain damage, right? But at the same time, I mean you you don't Like if he did we'd still love him and we still take care of him, you know
43:36: He had a different future looking forward and we would have a different future. But I mean like that's like God doesn't give everyone the same situation
43:44: He wouldn't have been unjust to give us that scenario and if he did then he did, you know And we would accept it from his hand but that You know, that's just um, that's a pagan view of humanity where you know
43:56: The child's born with the cleft palate you throw them out to the wild animals, you know, like that's just like you're
44:03: You've taken vanity and you've elevated it like that's just a vanity of man on display. And so there's no morally
44:10: Justifiable reason to kill a child just because he's gonna have a disability. I mean, let's not pretend like it's not a disability
44:17: Right. Mm -hmm, right. Is it this it's not pretend like it's like, oh, yeah, he's normal and it's just society this abnormal
44:24: It's like no, he's abnormal. Okay Like let's not play some stupid game like that, you know but like okay, you know, it is what it is
44:34: God's God's made all sorts of people and He and you know part of that's to remind us of the consequences of the fall
44:42: Part of that's to make us more like it. Well, I can't meant so God it will use a variety of things to make it to help his people become more like him and that's one of those things and You can't resist it and just become a murderer just because you don't like the
44:55: Providence. It's come your way. Mm -hmm Okay, what about What about when the life of the mother is being threatened?
45:06: So man some kind of scenario where the baby is
45:12: Due to be born but then it it's not looking like the mother will make it through it if she's
45:19: Once once it's time to actually deliver the baby. Whoa, or you know, I'm not a doctor
45:25: So I'm sure there's other you know scenarios that could happen before then too that could threaten the life of the mother
45:31: So anything like that? What what is abortion? It's amazing. It's a mate
45:36: It's good is abortion a viable option at that point at that point, you know
45:41: Bring that up. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean I I you know,
45:46: I had a sister -in -law who had a c -section on her first baby and you know
45:53: She had another c -section on her second baby and I think from kid three to five She was told you know, it's like very dangerous to keep on having babies with c -sections, you know
46:02: Because she have complications and possibly die and all this kind of stuff and she had up to five
46:08: Five c -sections in a row and it was amazing how none of those predictions panned out, you know and I just you know,
46:14: I've heard and I've heard that kind of stuff over and over and over and over and over again and and it's just like it seems like it's remarkable how
46:23: Often that kind of thing happens and how many stories there are of the woman who just says hey I'm not gonna kill my baby and and then it ends up that you know what she's
46:35: Everyone survives and it's healthy, you know, right and so It seems like I've heard way more of those kind of stories than the stories of like the opposite where the woman wants to go ahead and do it and then you know, she ends up dying and the baby dies and And yet like you're living in a society that wants to that story more than the other one, you know
46:58: Yeah, you know I'm saying yeah It's kind of like with all the kovat stuff like, you know You're living in society right now that wants to hear someone died of kovat dude.
47:06: It wasn't vaccinated or something like that Yeah, so they can be proved, right? Right, but then it's just like hey
47:11: I don't hear any of like despite the fact that there's like I could such a high demand for that story particularly with some sort of conservative politician or something like that All I hear of is like the multitude of the got the back got the vaccine and you know
47:26: Had reverse effects from But the same thing is true on this it's just like everyone wants to hear that story of the
47:34: Christian person who's like Oh, you know have the baby even though it might be but I don't hear any of it I don't hear as many of those, you know, and maybe it's because everyone just kills it, but I don't think so You know,
47:44: I think it's a pretty rare scenario You know, I think if you were to put it in the best possible scenario,
47:49: I mean you could try to maybe say that You know if you're not dealing with some sort of Hey increased probability of death, but you know almost like some sort of mathematical certainty of death kind of scenario
48:05: You know, what do you do if the baby is, you know Functionally holding the gun to the mother's head and says, you know my life for years kind of thing.
48:13: Mm -hmm And I would say I don't know that that's a scenario and if I think the ethicists that I've heard
48:22: Who basically say hey, well, maybe it's permissible in those kind of rare circumstances in which they're very rare You know kind of circumstances.
48:29: They're not common by any means, right? Might make carve out an allowance for that.
48:35: But you know, I probably need to review the science a little better and As far as that goes, but I would just speak and don't anecdotally and say
48:43: I would be very cautious of Ever, you know go in there with it and I do have a category for you know greater love as You know
48:52: No, man, then to lay down his life for his friends. And like I do know that, you know, the normal kind of mother has a kind of Normal mother has a she -bear kind of love for her hubs, you know and isn't gonna want to go down that route
49:13: And if she does, you know will probably be morally stained in the process so Regardless of what anyone says, you know,
49:21: I don't know I think you have to deal with the fallout of that and you know I probably wouldn't want most people to have to deal with fall out of that, you know, right but You know, it's a rare scenario and I don't know that I don't know that the doctors are all that trustworthy all the time with all of their dire predictions related
49:39: This it seems like they have some sort of incentive Reduce I mean, it seems like they're making a lot of predictions.
49:48: I mean, I you know, I could just tell you with my own wife I mean, we were constantly worn. Oh, it's dangerous to have more kids day.
49:54: I mean, they're discouraging us. We had five I mean, it's like discouraging us the whole entire time and it sounded safe, you know
50:01: It's just like I don't think it's really all that unsafe. You know, like we she's alive. They're all fine. You know, what's the problem?
50:07: I guess I can't confirm. She is still alive Still I was like, oh no, you know, so I mean,
50:13: I don't know that I I Don't know that in some simplistic way. You could just trust a doctor in that way
50:24: You know, but I'm aware that you know, there are scenarios that can happen where That are more than just the general fear -mongering kind of scenarios.
50:34: I would say those are Those are difficult. I'm not really persuaded myself by the you know, hey just kill him kind of thing, right?
50:42: I will frankly admit that I've not been in that scenario myself Okay, my wife haven't either but I'm not really at the moment persuaded that that's
50:53: Probably the godliest option, you know, unless it's just like hey, you know
51:02: And Both of you are gonna die or we can save you by you know Killing a child.
51:10: What do you want to do? You know, and at that point, you know it, you know, there might be some kind of moral calculation to say that this baby has become a literal murderer at that point if you could nail it down with any kind of psych
51:23: You know medical Like what show me the numbers and statistics, but I don't know that seems dubious at best
51:31: I wouldn't say I would say this, you know, it's in the category of morally dubious at best
51:37: Mm -hmm, probably wrong, you know, yeah So we've we've talked a lot about Abort, you know abortion obviously it it seems like the conclusion we're coming to is it's essentially never okay to murder your baby
51:55: Right, even even when they're still in the womb, it's not okay to murder your baby and and even with the
52:04: The life of the mother being threat. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can you can you know that run that scenario out of I mean
52:11: I've heard the story of You know, hey, you have the twins if you kill one of them like they're in complications
52:18: The other one won't survive and you know, then I you know, I've heard that scenario and then they kill the wrong twin, you know
52:25: So So but God miracles can happen we believe it, you know
52:30: You there is some sort of trust in the Lord with all your heart and don't lean on your understanding, right? and you know,
52:36: I think there is a Danger of playing God in these scenarios. It's very real, you know and taking prerogative, you know
52:45: Life and death is in his power not ours and that should be our basic stance Mm -hmm.
52:50: So so we've essentially you know, we've established that this is a wrong thing To do this is an evil thing to do to take the life of an unborn child
53:01: Basically refusing to Accept the fact that this this child is actually human just like us and has the same right to life that each of us has and and Abortions not a new thing either.
53:18: I mean you can read A this has been around for really
53:23: I I mean I would assume honestly Just about as long as as people have been around maybe not quite as long because we can read
53:33: You know the creation story and and know that it didn't necessarily happen in that story
53:40: But all throughout the Bible you see The murdering of children the sacrificing of children and it's kind of like a something that's paired up a lot with pagan written pagan rituals and This is all
53:57: I say all that basically to say this is not a new topic Abortion was not invented
54:04: You know 50 years ago 60 years ago, right? It's been around a lot longer than that, but it seems like recently it's obviously in our society become a lot a lot more popular overall
54:20: Even to the point that people are arguing that every woman should have the right
54:25: To an abortion and and part of their push for this is to say hey, you know
54:30: We you need to be if you want to be on the right side of history, right?
54:35: You need to You need to be for the legalization of abortions and trying to get
54:43: As many women as possible access to you know, legal abortions to legal murdering of their children but that's a pretty strange statement to make really if you think about it if you think about the fact that Abortion is not a new thing.
55:00: It had it wasn't invented 60 years ago It seemed it seems weird to say that You know, if you want to be on the right side of history, you need to be for abortion
55:12: It doesn't really seem like it makes a lot of sense considering abortion would have been You know at best
55:19: Looked down upon and and you would have been shunned if people found out that you aborted your unborn child
55:26: You know Centuries ago So why exactly are people pushing that kind of narrative that you you should be on the right if you want to be on the right?
55:34: side of history you need to be for the legalization of abortion if it's been around for so long and for so long been viewed as such a
55:43: You know a terrible and a shameful thing to do yeah, I mean I think the whole right side of history narrative is just It's kind of it based on the idea that secularism like, you know with Combination with scientism and that kind of stuff that I'm essentially we're progressing as a species.
56:03: And so it's obvious that you can Demonstrably, you can look around the world and you can see that.
56:09: Hey things are getting better, right? like in terms of technology and yeah, it's and everything else and so we know more than what we know know in the past and And but I mean you can draw some inappropriate conclusions from that so we think hey things are getting better Therefore we know more now.
56:27: Well, the problem is that like what you see around you is a product of pool of knowledge And so we're standing on the shoulders of giants, but I mean you can just look at like a test
56:36: You know high school exams from the 1800s or whatever else and see that like The kids back then knew way more than the kids today, you know do
56:45: I mean I think I mean it used to be that in order to get like a PhD you had to You know argue your dissertation in Latin, you know
56:55: Like I think you know the I think men used to be much more intelligent than they are today
57:01: It's just that we have access to so much more information now We're in in, you know standing on the shoulders of giants and pulled not the benefits of pooled knowledge and everything else
57:10: But it's not demonstrable that we're getting better ethically but then that's part of Part of what's happening is that there's a lie that you know, we were founded in a
57:20: Christian as a Christian nation Making explicit, you know reference to the
57:25: Christian God But then the thing is as we've kind of chucked certain aspects of that morality
57:31: We think we're advancing so we think secularism is better than the biblical ethic in a lot of ways And so we're advancing and so, you know, you women now have
57:40: Been given rights, you know to be career women and you know right to vote and all sorts of things like that And you know,
57:48: I could get myself all sorts of trouble related to that kind of topic We think these are all improvements, but it's not you know, demonstrably true
57:56: That these are improvements across the board in some sort of simplistic way And so like we think well, you know first we dealt with the race with the slavery issue
58:05: And I think that that was a that was a good thing that we did The women's rights issue was attached to that and then you have you know sexual deviant
58:14: Revolution that's happening. And so I think we think we're getting better and better and better but then it's
58:22: What we're actually doing I think in in particular as it relates to morality is getting more secular and more pagan thought process and and and the problem with the whole right side of history argument in general is that you know like it's
58:37: These things kind of run in cycles in general So, you know, I'm sure that in the third
58:42: Reich all the Nazis thought they they could have made the same arguments You want to be on the right side of history?
58:47: We'll embrace the final solution, right? well, we realize because of science because of Darwin that there's a tears to races, you know and and You know, this is survival of the fittest and you know
59:01: The most technologically advanced nation in the world and you know We need to subjugate these subhuman species that put them under our feet
59:10: Finally for the betterment of mankind if you want to be on the right side of history then embrace our agenda, right?
59:16: Well, the problem is that you know history We don't ever know the end arc of history, you know in the moment if that makes sense, right?
59:24: Mm -hmm. And so if you want to be on the real right side of history, I mean the point is that The only way to you know know which arc you're actually on, you know, are you regressing as a society?
59:37: Yeah, are you improving it is to understand what biblical morality actually is is the point right?
59:43: Because these things can come and go. Yeah, so so I mean we look back on them We look back on the final solution and think that was reprehensible.
59:52: We're gonna look back on the abortion stuff and think that's reprehensible, too Hopefully anyways
01:00:00: Or at least some other some other Country, you know centuries from now.
01:00:06: We'll look back at what we did and we and wonder how we ever kind Mankind back on this at some point, you know
01:00:14: Unless God just returns tomorrow or something like that But then humankind will look at it in right and wonder how we even got here got so far down the wrong side of history you know, but The problem is you have to have an interpreter of history that is objective and fixed and that's by what she is interpreter of history because these things come and go, you know, mm -hmm and and I think there's a lot of things that we think we're liberated from which we're actually just we've liberated ourself from a
01:00:44: Christian ethic and and there'll be consequences to it and we'll look back and your sin never pays, you know
01:00:50: Always bear a bitter fruit and we'll see it So a lot of people also argue that if you ban legal abortions you're basically what you're doing is you're forcing women to have to go and and Get what they would call unsafe abortions now, obviously, this is an oxymoron
01:01:12: You know calling some an abortion Unsafe because the end result is even even in a quote -unquote safe abortion the end result is the death of a human being so I don't really know how safe that can be when a person always dies if the abortion goes successfully, but their argument is that You'll force women to have to get unsafe abortions.
01:01:36: And a lot of times what they mean is, you know, you have the Essentially they have to Perform the abortion
01:01:42: Themselves and obviously they're not trained professionals. They don't have medical access to Medical equipment, you know that you would need to see inside of them inside of their womb and everything
01:01:54: And so there's a lot of harm that can be done to the women who are fixed on Getting an abortion even if it's illegal
01:02:02: So what what do you think the Christian response should be to this type of argument that if you ban?
01:02:09: Legal if you ban legal abortions in our country, then you are condemning women to have to get unsafe quote -unquote abortions
01:02:19: Yeah, I mean that Yeah, the absurdity of that I mean it's just There's so many euphemisms that are being used, you know
01:02:31: They don't have access to medical equipment. You mean forceps and yeah scalpels and You know the chemicals that burn yeah
01:02:40: Yeah, I mean now they're gonna have to use, you know A primitive coat hanger or something like that and in order to you know
01:02:48: Stab their baby to death in the womb, you know, and the problem is like a woman who is actually doing that Like that kind of woman is you know, she's worse than Hitler I mean the kind of woman who is taking a coat hanger and doing that kind of thing and it's really
01:03:04: I mean There's no difference between that kind of person a person who's gonna stab someone with a knife like they know
01:03:12: You're not taking a coat hanger to a clump of cells. Come on, you know Like, you know, you know what you're doing at that point.
01:03:19: There's moral awareness to what you're doing You like what there's no need to take a coat hanger to a clump of cells, right?
01:03:26: No, I mean like you like yeah, so Yeah, I mean it's just more of the same.
01:03:33: I mean I I Like You know,
01:03:39: I'm not Emotionally interested in making you know murder painless on the murderer.
01:03:46: Mm -hmm Now I have a vested moral interest in trying to help help a person
01:03:52: I mean You know not I mean, it's just like, you know,
01:03:58: I don't want to be that person who is you know inventing the You know
01:04:07: The some sort of like gloves or something that she did a person can put on and punch a person to death without hurting
01:04:13: Their hands, you know. Yeah I mean, it's like come on like, you know, I like It's that kind of moral calculation there where it's just like hey, you know, don't you want like don't you care about women?
01:04:26: Don't you want to make everything about that pain -free and everything? It's like no I don't you know, I I care about the one that they're stabbing to death more than I care about the one doing the stabbing
01:04:34: Mm -hmm. And so if she gets hurt in the process, then you know what like that saves us some time and a rope
01:04:40: You know some tax dollars, I guess. Yeah. I mean like yeah. Well, thank you. You know, you you've done our job for us for us, you know if you're gonna do that then
01:04:50: Yeah Yes, I'm much more concerned about your victim I am you mm -hmm the moment
01:04:59: So Two final questions for you before we wrap this up the first one being
01:05:06: You know, I myself the more I've learned about You know abortion the more the more
01:05:15: I've kind of immersed myself in this debate that's going on in our country on this topic and I've also
01:05:23: I've you know, I've had a child of my own in the you know in the last year or so Basically, and and that's really kind of changed my my perspective not not that I wasn't, you know against abortion before but I guess just kind of more in terms of Just how much so I am against it what
01:05:46: I've found recently the more I've I've immersed myself in this topic and and the more
01:05:53: I look at my own daughter, you know, and and Can't even bear to imagine anything ever happening to her
01:06:02: But then knowing that there's over 60 million Babies that are that are just like her that you know, they didn't get a chance the same chance at life that my baby got and not not because of You know
01:06:19: God's providence, but because of the sin of man, you know, they're they're having their lives robbed from them and What I found basically is that more and more this topic really really provokes a certain kind of Anger inside of me in some ways and and I wanted to ask you
01:06:41: What when it comes to this kind of topic do you think that there is any room
01:06:47: For The Christian to say hey this makes me angry That this is happening.
01:06:54: It makes me angry that we have to have this conversation at all or is that probably like hey
01:07:01: We're we're taking it too far. We need to be the type who are loving and patient and gentle and kind What is your perspective on that based off what scripture says?
01:07:12: Yeah, I mean there's two competing realities one that wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness that God requires
01:07:19: Kind of thing and then you have Jesus, you know over the turning temples tables in the temple
01:07:24: Kind of scenario on the opposite. And so I don't know that anger is There's some sort of simplistic
01:07:33: Understanding of anger in the Bible. I say that most of the time probably 99 % of time our anger is sinful.
01:07:39: Mm -hmm And even righteous anger can be sinful anger too, so I don't know that there's some
01:07:50: It's very hard for sinful human beings to pull it off. Well, but if yeah
01:07:56: But I would say that if there's anything that should make a Christian angry and they should feel safe about for the most part is
01:08:05: This kind of subject in general And so generally you distinguish righteous anger from sinful anger and in in the in the way of this
01:08:17: I mean like righteous anger generally is devoted towards God's priorities and God's you know values and God's glory and It's God's Word and focused.
01:08:30: And so if you think about the way the Lord's Prayer work, it's you know, I kingdom come I will be done on earth as it is in heaven
01:08:37: Typically sinful anger is about you know, my kingdom come I will be a done on You know in heaven as it is right now as I've done it on earth
01:08:45: And so it's kind of a flipping of that and and so, you know often I would say our Anger is self focused me focused not
01:08:53: God's focused or others focused But then I think with something like abortion is easier for it to be
01:08:59: You know more focused on God's purpose, you know, like how long the Lord we allow This kind of gross iniquity right kind of thing and it's
01:09:10: Focused on other people Not so much like how it affects you personally, and so I feel like it's a little bit safer
01:09:17: But even that can have a self -righteous kind of Thing to it, you know, thank God. I'm not like these other, you know pagans over here who?
01:09:26: You know rip their children open in their mother's womb. You have to kind of check that to to where is it?
01:09:32: Is it? You know, we live in a society right now that it has like a fine moral, you know scrupulous moral
01:09:41: Calculus as it relates to you know, the sins of all these people were canceling who are have been dead for over a hundred years
01:09:48: You know, and so we're the kind of people who can look back at the sins of people 150, you know 200 years ago and and and get ourself all worked up and the self -righteous moral condemnation and we're the kind of people who
01:10:02: Can do that and yet at the same time be totally blind to the kind of sense that we're committed right now, right?
01:10:08: You know That are just obvious and right there in her face you know, we all like to think that we'd kind of be you know, the
01:10:18: German and third Reich who is pushing against the system and Everything else but most of us wouldn't because we're going along with it
01:10:28: Right, you know just like it is right now and unwilling to risk anything in order to You know keep our heads down and everything else and so I say that there's that danger of it just being like you don't want to be the kind of person who's just Obsessed with the sins that you never commit, you know, yeah.
01:10:46: Yeah But at the same time and so but that in the same time, you know There's a wrong response to that kind of thing that's basically like well, you know what
01:10:57: I'm sinner so therefore just Who am I to judge if they want to rip up babies in the mother's womb, you know?
01:11:02: And that kind of thing isn't right either. So right you think I do think you know The fact that we don't feel angry about it is probably an indictment on us.
01:11:09: You just don't care. You know us about it. Yeah We prefer to not think about it
01:11:15: So the final question for you before we wrap this up We spent probably two and a half maybe close to almost three hours now between two episodes
01:11:29: Talking about Abortion why it's wrong what the consequences should be according to Scripture For the people who are committing it.
01:11:40: I wanted to just ask you if you could take a minute to explain maybe maybe some people are hearing this and They're the person who they've gone through with With abortion they've they've killed their unborn baby, or maybe they're the person who's performed the abortion
01:11:58: They were the one taking the taking the lives of of many unborn children
01:12:05: And they feel immense guilt about it, right? Maybe maybe their conscience isn't so seared that it doesn't sit right with them
01:12:15: What they've done is that and they're hearing us and they're saying hey these these types of people
01:12:21: Need to be put to death for what they've done According to what God said they deserve death is there any
01:12:31: Good news for this person. Is there any type of forgiveness that that can be offered to the person?
01:12:37: Who's decided to get an abortion or has performed abortions or has pressured people?
01:12:44: Other people to get abortions. Is there any kind of forgiveness that can be given?
01:12:50: To these people Sure, I mean, I think there's there's a
01:12:55: Offer of the Gospels available to all people and it's available to murderers, too. So David Killed Uriah and Committed adultery and murder all you know in The course of you know, a very short period of time and God forgave him of that and there's obviously consequences that happened
01:13:16: That his kingdom was torn from him and those consequences were very severe, but God forgave him and and God can forgive a person who commits murder and God can come forgive the abortionist or the murder, you know, the murder doctor or the or the
01:13:32: The woman or the man who's pressuring the woman or you know, demanding that it happens or whatever else
01:13:39: I mean God can forgive everyone if they ask but then the problem is that you know God won't forgive anyone unless they ask and the
01:13:46: Bible says if we confess our sins He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness and you're living in a society right now
01:13:53: That's basically telling that kind of person You know, it's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong.
01:13:59: It was healthcare issue, you know wrapping the thing in you've been euphemisms To that dampen the moral responsibility for it and the problem is that kind of person who's listening to this they may get mad
01:14:11: But then there's part of them that the moral law of God's written on their heart and they know that they're guilty
01:14:17: And I would say that the more that they try to silence that voice in there that conscience like They're not gonna win, you know, maybe maybe you know
01:14:30: It's exceedingly hard just to totally drown out that conscience and it's gonna nag you and it's gonna nag you and it's gonna nag you
01:14:36: And and you can you know, if you want to spend the whole rest of your life saying hey It wasn't your fault. You're a victim. You can do that But you're gonna have to live with that and I would say it probably won't work
01:14:45: And if it does then you're in a really bad state, you know If somehow you finally get it to silence, but then the the freedom of the gospel is that you can be forgiven
01:14:55: You can be forgiven of that and worst if you humble yourself take responsibility for your actions
01:15:02: Quit blaming everyone else around you and just own up to what you did God God can forgive you and you know, that doesn't mean that there won't be any consequences of Of your actions and God only knows what those consequences are.
01:15:14: But you you know, you could spend your life repenting and and see all the good that God could bring out of the evil if you would just Turn to him in faith and repentance trust in what
01:15:26: Jesus did Yeah, that's not the message the world's trying to do world's trying to shackle people as slaves to that choice and ultimately is
01:15:38: You know gonna leading them to a miserable life and in a far more miserable life in the future.
01:15:45: Yeah Well, I think that's a good place for us to end so This has been another episode of Bible bash.
01:15:55: We hope that you've been encouraged and blessed through our discussion Now go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world will be perpetually offended by your every move