Should Women Who Murder Their Unborn Children Be Drawn and Quartered? Part 2

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Salvation in Christ Alone and the Coming Judgment

People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone and any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God.

Is.

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Introduction to the Abortion Discussion and the Question of Minors

And welcome to Bible bashed where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry. We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age-old question Should women who murder their unborn children be drawn and quartered.

Part two? Now obviously, this is the Second episode that we're doing on abortion. And like I said last week I just had a lot more questions that I really wanted to get to and and give them justice give us time to talk through them and and Tim for you to Answer a lot of them and not feel rushed.

Or this episode be you know, a four hour long episode so we're going to Continue our discussion on abortion and just talk through Some more some more areas of discussion about this that we didn't really get to cover and really I just wanted to start Tim.

By.

By clarifying something that we didn't really clarify in the first episode we we kind of alluded to this a few different ways but never really addressed it head-on one of the one of the stories that you told as a part of a response to a Question I had asked you was you'd brought up a story about a young girl who I think was Maybe 13 maybe 14 who was going with her mom To go get an abortion at an abortion clinic and you told a story about how you know you told her mom that she didn't love her and they went away and they didn't go in that day and.

One of the conclusions we came to in that first episode was that while no women don't need to be drawn and quartered For getting an abortion. They do need to face capital punishment. Meaning, you know death a death sentence from the government now in light of that idea.

Knowing that there are people out there who are as young as you know, 13 probably 12, maybe even 11 who are either thinking about they get into a situation where they're pregnant and They're either thinking about getting abortion or they're being pressured to get an abortion.

Does that mean that These young girls who are doing the same exact act That that the adults are doing who we are saying do deserve the death penalty. Are we are we saying that girls that are that young also are equally deserving of the same penalty?

Moral Agency, Age, and Capital Punishment

I.

Think the answer to that question is a little bit complicated by the fact that It seems like the vast majority of states are going to require some sort of parental involvement as it relates to minors in general.

So when we talk about, you know a woman getting an abortion one of the things to be clear about When we're talking about a woman getting an abortion Should she be drawn and quartered the topic of that is, you know, the answers that are given are related to Essentially an adult woman.

That's the person that has in mind now in general. You know the vast majority of women getting abortions. Anyways, they're going to be adult women. That scenario of the 13 year old girl is a scenario that happens, but it's not necessarily a.

Very likely it's not a very frequent situation, but it and that kind of thing can happen. But but often these kind of discussions, it's you know that kind of girl who's been you know. Raped raped by a family member or something like that that's brought forward as the ultimate.

You can't punish woman kind of card as far as that goes. But then you think about the statistics in general in in the US about 50 of US women obtaining abortion are younger than 25 and.

Then.

About 33 of all abortions make up are made up of women from 20 to 24 years old and Then teenagers are about 17 So there's a pretty wide range on the teenager one, but that scenario can happen. But then when we're talking about capital punishment, we are talking about for adults now, I think.

The situation of a teenager is a bit complicated because We do happen to live in the kind of society that is advancing the age of adulthood in somewhat of an arbitrary.

Way.

To be higher and higher and higher and so we don't really consider People to be adults until the age of 18, but then you know, you have to be 21 years old to drink and Per I can't. What is the laws related to tobacco?

Is it the same 21 or is it?

I'm pretty sure tobacco is 18, but it might not be I might be wrong on that.

Well, many many a person has pointed out the absurdity of Of an 18 year old being able to go fight for his country But not be able to purchase alcohol as far as that goes. And so we have some strange, you know laws related to The the age of an adult now, I mean for the Jews.

The Jews thought that and there's no, you know age of adulthood in the Bible per se but there are some passages that are related to this, but the Jews thought that essentially, you know Son or a daughter who reached the age of 13.

They have their bar mitzvah or their bar mitzvah. And they are legally at that point considered a son or daughter of the Torah. So their age of adulthood was much younger than we have today. And and I think one of the things that's happened is, you know adulthood is being delayed in terms of just practice and in terms of just our own perspective of things that we infantilize people for a Great number of years, but then it's one of those things that when when you have like someone like Kyle Kyle Rittenhouse going and Situations that happened with with that He's being tried as an adult because I think he was 17 years old at the time.

And so we you know, there are certain situations that can happen where we think that Even if someone's not a legal adult, they're morally capable and conscious as far as that goes. And so I think we have a fairly complicated system of And our country related to a great variety of things and so I wouldn't want to say in some simplistic way in All scenarios that any woman who ever gets an abortion for any reason should be You know the subject of capital punishment, however.

And I'm thinking of just young women who are Young women who are very young, you know that kind of thing barely past the age of puberty who are In some sense being forced to get an abortion. Now there's always moral agency that's going to kick in at a certain point anyways.

And I'm not trying to say that a woman who's 13 years old whose parents tell her that if she doesn't get the abortion Then she's going to be kicked out of her house without any recourse or anything else and they're taking her to a Taking her to go get it and threatened with all sorts of threats.

I'm not trying to say that That kind of person and that kind of situation is not capable of making a moral choice. But whatever is happening. It's it's there is some issues of coercion that's Involved in that kind of scenario and that's a little bit more complicated than 20 year old person who is Going of their own accord to get an abortion kind of scenario.

So I think there's a there's there's no simplistic answer that I kind of question about how young a person should be but I would say that The you know, biblically speaking if you're gonna say hey, when does a person become a murderer?

Well a person becomes a murderer when they When they have some intention to kill the baby inside of them and and you know that didn't even Require that they understand the baby to be a human if that makes sense.

What do you mean? Whatever? What do you mean? Well Well, I mean You know just to give some sort of scenario that might be helpful I mean the Jews didn't consider are the Germans didn't consider the Jews to be people.

Mm-hmm, right.

And they exterminated them or you know, there's you know white people during Certain parts of our history didn't consider based on evolutionary assumptions black people to be Human or they consider them to be some sort of subhuman race as far as that goes but just because you might be fully convinced that particular people class of people is subhuman or Non-human does not make the act itself.

Not murder, right? So it doesn't totally resolve around your understanding of what's happening in the moment as far as that goes. It's it but it does, you know, a definition of murder does include intentionality.

There is distinct from you know, homicide. So I think it's complicated. I think you know you one of the things that you don't do is you don't ever apply Capital punishment and retroactively if that makes sense.

Mm-hmm. So the law is meant to be a curb towards immorality and a good Scenario to think through here would be the issue of Cain so Cain commits the first murder and He's not put to death, right? But he's not put to death because there's no law that formally that you know Put a punishment for it as far as that goes but then shortly, you know in the in the narrative you have a capital punishment kind of thing that is put forward, you know, Whoever kills Cain will be Vengeance will be taken upon him sevenfold, right?

So apart from the law there, you know, you don't apply it retroactively. But once the law set down then everyone's held accountable to that and so I would be in favor of you know Having a law that's put down That you know would be younger than 18 for sure.

You know women are more than capable making that kind of moral decision before the age of 18. And if they're not it's like an absolute, you know indictment on our society and On us now, I think from a biblical speaking when a person becomes It's a put, you know, what a person should be considered an adult is a lot lower than what we think right?

So God God sees Israel pictured in the Old Covenant as a young woman Who's in the desert and basically naked and and God comes and you know cleans her up and gives her some clothes and all that. But it says behold she was at the time of love Essentially, and it says her breasts were formed and basically like that what that saying is that you know from God's perspective Like women when they go through puberty, they're at the time of love meaning they're at the age.

They're ready to be married so the Bible's perspective of What an adult is is a lot sooner than what we are and I mean I can just think back from my own Experience and know that I had significantly more moral awareness At you know During my teen years and even young teen years and what people think is possible, you know, they're a bit Naive as far as that goes and so I you know, I wouldn't be in favor of you know Applying some retroactive law that wouldn't go backwards and you know Take care of all the murders that have happened at this point, but I would be in favor of capital punishment going forward.

That was You know Going to be enforced In a society that is For people a lot younger than 18, you know when it comes down to it. But it's not the kind of thing that you can do overnight By any means you have to get there's some time to get there as far as it goes.

Abortion, Financial Hardship, and the Meaning of Justice

Yeah, it seems like the question is Really complicated overall, especially when you think about kind of on the other end of the spectrum, you know abortion at this point is such a I don't want to say popular.

That's not necessarily the right word, but such a well-known thing in our society. That that really I wouldn't even be that surprised if people especially girls who are much younger Understand what an abortion actually is or at least you know Why there's such controversy around abortion then they would have maybe 20 years ago.

Right and so. So it seems hard to on the other end of the spectrum maybe say that They would just absolutely have no idea at the age of 13 What an abortion was just because it's so prevalent in our society and it's kind of hard to avoid that topic.

Now that yeah, yeah, I think I think that would be. You know, I think it's like a different like if you're dealing with some kind of scenario where you know the. The child doesn't even know what you know.

You have some really young girl who was raped by their father and you know the parents are hush-hush about it, you know something like that and then they're like They they get her to you know, take a pregnancy test.

She doesn't even know what a pregnancy test is at that point in her life or something like that. And the test comes back positive just like they suspected because you know. She started throwing up in the morning shortly after that and that kind of thing.

So they got take the test and then you know, they bring her over to the clinic and it's pretty hush-hush I have some sort of agreement worked out where she's not going to be told about anything and that kind of thing and then you know, they You know do some sort of procedure.

Without her really having much knowledge about it. I'm obviously in that kind of scenario. She doesn't even know what's happening, right? Right and she's not given the information. She needs to make some sort of moral Decision but as you said, I mean, I think we're living in the kind of society right now we're that kind of scenario like that is the it's the kind of scenario that everyone puts forward as if it's like just What you're when you're talking about criminalizing abortion, that's what you're talking about.

But it's just like that's almost a very difficult situation. To even know, you know, and when I was looking at that girl who was like probably 13 or 14 going in there I was looking at someone who seemed to have some sort of awareness about what was happening, right?

As far as I could, you know speculate from a distance, I mean I could be wrong on that but. That you know, you do pick up on body language and things like that. But I think yeah in this kind of time and particularly where you know you have some sort of requirement that an ultrasound happens and that kind of stuff and.

Yeah, I think there's a lot more awareness than that kind of, you know scenario I'm describing anyways in the vast majority of situations, I'm sure but.

Yeah, anyways, so I guess kind of following a similar vein to some of the things you had in that response. So you talked to a lot about? Basically, I think a lot of people especially On the left who are very much pro abortion.

They like to pretend that there's a lot of a lot of really morally justifiable reasons for abortion and Primarily, I think they're kind of things that they try to use to emotionally manipulate people.

And and kind of make people out to look Almost like some kind of you know, super villain or something like Like oh, how could you ever, you know push this on anyone? But you know, they use examples like you like you had said, you know, the father the father Rapes the daughter right and then she it turns out she gets pregnant.

Which is obviously a horrific Thing to ever have to go for anyone to ever have to go through. But then oftentimes the the tactic is to take instances like that and pretend that that is what happens the majority of the time and that's why the majority of abortions happen and I don't have the statistics in front of me right now, but I know that.

Statistically those types of things are very very low. Rape and incest are like less than a percent, right? What's reported right. And so they also say things like, you know Planned Parenthood provides like all sorts of other, you know, family planning services besides abortions.

But you know, it's abortions are 95 94 percent of what they do, right, right. So yeah, they have to put you're against women's health care, you know.

I.

Remember they put out a graphic maybe at the beginning of Last year 20 20 20 and You know, I was just looking at the number of you know.

Of.

Like essentially, you know prenatal health care that they had that they had given to patients who had been coming in for that type of thing and. And then, you know you compare that to the number of abortions they perform and it's not even close.

I mean, it's not even close. So so if you're if your argument is from you know, this type of position. You're basically just living in a pretend world. Or or you're being incredibly dishonest on purpose, but I just want to kind of give some time.

Because I know that people will have those objections. So dedicate some time to addressing those things. So I guess where we'll start first is just you know, is there? One of the most common ones I hear now is.

Is.

Hey, look, some people aren't ready to have kids and not not necessarily meaning. Hey, I'm not, you know mentally ready. I'm not emotionally ready. Whatever. They're they're primarily meaning financially.

I'm not financially.

Ready.

To have a child and so I got an abortion Instead and for you to deny me that right to get an abortion Is to you know, deny my my health care options as a woman. So. So, what do you think, you know, according to Scripture?

Do you think that there can be made allowances for the person who's saying? Hey, look, I'm not financially ready. I can't take on this child. So it should be legal and it should be morally, right? For me to kill this baby before it's born.

Financial Readiness, Sex, and the Consequences of Sin

Yeah, man, I think you know at every single point all these words are being used in. In ways that are doing violence to their very meaning. So, you know, it's An attack on my health as a woman to not allow me to kill a child because I'm not financially ready.

Well. You know what? Typically, you know, this is this you consider this a health care issue. And now we're talking about mental health or you know, emotional health or whatever else. We're just doing violence to words.

As far as I need a safe space for my language.

Right, so we're living in bizarro world there where words just mean the opposite of what they normally mean, but yeah, I think that's a that's a. That kind of calculus is. You know. It feels like it's just so far from a biblical worldview in so many ways and part of the part of the reason why is because you know, one of the things that you have happening is is that.

You know, it's never right to kill someone. So you have you know basic moral intuition that Christian have Christians have which is that two wrongs don't make a right? And part of the whole lex talionis principle an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth life for life.

Like that you have principle of retributive justice and one of the you know Morally justified reasons for killing someone is not because they're gonna put you in a be putting you in a bad financial situation, right?

It's so whatever's going on there, you know, you have a rejection of what justice is, right? So someone raped me or you know, it's gonna be a you know, poor financial situation. Therefore I'm gonna kill someone, you know.

Fly in any other area of life and we all know it now part of the reason why that gained some sort of traction is because you know, we've adopted the the egalitarian notion essentially that Everyone, you know basically deserves the same standard of living if that makes sense.

So if there are any qualities in the world. Then those inequalities must be fixed so that everyone's equal and one of the things that we know is that you know Single-motherhood is a great prediction of poverty in general.

And so if you want to know the you know, the major Like the overwhelmingly the major Contributor to poverty. It's the presence of you know, single-parent households.

Mm-hmm.

And so you have a woman who's you know. Trying to be a career woman live the American dream go to college go to school do all this stuff so she can get A career so she can make money and have stability.

You know independently of some sort of man and then she gets pregnant and and and like that essentially has. It's going to be a major roadblock to her financial success apart from a man in the future if that makes sense.

Mm-hmm, and so in general, you know, it used to be that women, you know got married and then. The biblical ethic is you get married then you have a baby. So you don't have sex before you get married because you know shock you make may get pregnant, right?

Mm-hmm. Well now what what's happened is, you know post-sexual revolution sex is considered a right a basic, right? And it can happen whenever you want it. But so you have the right to express your sexuality however you want.

But then you we want desperately to remove all the consequences of that. Through abortion birth control pills and everything else and so but the problem is that you can't really fight God's design there and so essentially.

You do have premarital sex you're rolling the dices and you know a baby might be part of that calculus and then. Then you know what gasp? Like yeah, obviously that if you go down down that route route the Bible would call you a fool.

Right. Mm-hmm in a sinner and the problem is that it's just like yeah that that you're gonna you know. You can sew what you reap right? You're gonna reap what you sow. So like the issue then is it? Yeah, that is gonna be a predictor of poverty, but then you shouldn't have Done that if you didn't want to bear those consequences, but then why does killing someone justify it?

You know.

Well, it doesn't right. Mm-hmm. Now what about that. You kind of mentioned this already but. Is the is the rape victim any different in your eyes? So this isn't the person who went out and willingly, you know consented to sex with Another person.

This is the person who didn't consent to sex. Do do they have the same kind of moral standard applied to them or is it different because they were raped?

Rape, Victimhood, and Moral Responsibility

Well, yeah, this is something we talked about last episode and it just seems like that people don't have any category for. What you have is you have just an oversimplification of what Victimhood actually entails right.

And so we live in a world that's clambering all over itself to try to identify people as victims. But then once you get that coveted victim label, you know, you essentially have all moral responsibility removed from you.

And so it's it's like it's really kind of ridiculous way of viewing the world that you can you know. Once you get a victim label You're almost like Sainted at that point, right? Nothing you I mean, it's like, you know, just imagine yourself living in Alabama Alabama, right?

Mm-hmm. And it's like when you get that victim label, I mean, you're essentially Nick Saban, you know.

Okay.

Everyone would love that. Everyone would love to be Nick Saban. I mean you can do if you're an Auburn fan.

I guess while they're still winning I guess while they're winning gear, you know, you functionally you could do no wrong, right? And no one can conceive of you doing anything wrong at that point once you get that label, you know.

Cuz that label just gives you an all-purpose. Yeah, your royal excuse. Yeah, I mean, it's just absurd. That's not the way the world works so it's possible to be both a victim and a villain at the same time and it's and and I mean You know any number of people?

I mean you just just imagine, you know you're you're a guy and you walk in on your wife having an affair or something like that and then you Pop the gun. Yeah, you shoot you shoot them both, right? Mm-hmm.

Are you a victim? Sure, right? But I mean we all know that that's not the appropriate response to Being a victim, but the only problem the problem is that that only works if you're a man. Does that make sense?

Right like like People are only able to make just normal moral Calculations for people who like in those kind of situations where they're truly victimized when they're males. Are the ones who are victimized, you know when a female is victimized it's like it's an entirely different playbook and no one can understand and so I mean and if you try this, you know, put the Argument from the other side in the strongest terms.

I mean, you know, the the argument is that well if you're raped by this guy He's you know forcing you to have a baby that you did not consent to and everything revolves around consent and everything else.

But then now it's like, you know, you have this baby in this you're gonna be very victimized your whole life, right? You're gonna be re-victimized and so like essentially, you know every day you can be reminded of your rapist and by looking at the you know the fruit of your rapist and everything else and I think it's just you know, you know, I know I'm not allowed to speak to that kind of scenario because I'm not a woman and all that but I Guess if I you know, what the transgender route and try to self-identify I still wouldn't be because I wouldn't be identifying.

That's it, right? Let's I give the right answers, you know. It's it's confusing, you know, it's confusing how this works. But.

But I still compete against them in sports though.

Yeah.

Right. Well, there you go. At least that would be allowed but no no, I mean, I think we did. You know part of the biblical ethic only makes sense. If you have a biblical God that's going to help you to live biblically, right?

Mm-hmm. And so you take all that out. It's just like well.

Yeah.

I can understand how an unbeliever might struggle with that the rest of their life and being traumatized by that for the rest of their life and and You know, I understand how it could be that way. But then I also understand how God tells.

You know Jose had to go love a prostitute who keeps on cheating on him and how God can you know? Put people in pretty hard situations and and. Then you know not only help them to you know deal with it, but help them to excel at it, you know.

And if like there is a category of biblical love in that Jesus loved us when we're unlovable and He gave himself up for us when we're unlovable and God could give a mother. You know supernatural love.

And I don't even know that it's just abnormal. I mean all women have some sort of Love for their children, you know. You know and part of it's just you know another thing that's going into that is just a psychological view of man that you know, man is basically just you know, You can imagine, you know All the the horror movies or whatever of the woman getting raped and she has a child and then you know She's raising little Chuckie.

I.

Know.

But I mean that's kind of the thing that's put, you know, that's the kind of thing that it's just like oh man. Well, he's you know, he's got this serial killer kind of gene, you know, and he's gonna raise this little you know Jeffrey Dahmer incarnate him baby, you know.

Who's you know have to sleep with one eye open their whole rest of her life because of all that but I mean That's just not the way the world works, you know. That's not the way it works. You know, she could love that kid, you know and teach him.

You know present Christ to him and you know. Take him to church and give him a different life and he doesn't maybe have to end up the way her, you know. Rapist ended up as far as that goes and you know what?

She doesn't have to be a victim of that the rest of her life you know God can heal her of that and comfort her with that and. And in the only way that that's gonna work is if she looks in the mirror and says hey I'm a sinner too.

You know and I need God to forgive me of my sin and I'm not just gonna hold on to this victim identity my whole Life, you know, I'm not just gonna make that who I am the rape victim. I'm gonna have to say hey, you know what?

Like I'm a sinner. I need God's mercy this guy sinned against me but Jesus looked at the people putting him on the cross and he said father forgive him for they knew not what they Did you know and they don't know what they're doing and and she could say the same thing if she had God in her, you know.

But then when you live in a society, it doesn't have any kind of category for that kind of thing. And so it doesn't make sense. And so it's just like yeah. That sounds you know, horrible. So just kill the thing.

Right, right. It's like well, okay. Yeah, I Get it, you know pagans gonna pagan, right?

Women, Abortion, and the Logic of Victimhood

Yeah, it's it's funny. You know the the the people who are very much for abortion. They claim to also be the people who are for defending women. Against their rapists, right?

Right.

They that's kind of something that they pride themselves on is that they care more about the Women and they claim that people who are pro-life are obviously much more about the the rapist. That's not that's not you know word-for-word what the claim is, but They they do really put themselves as the person as the people championing the rights of the rape victim.

Which is funny because that's like the opposite of what's happening and I remember our what I mean is I remember watching in an interview or I guess you maybe it was Maybe more of a debate between Jeff Durbin and the guys that Apollo apologia ministries on their podcast with a young lady who had comic who had commented on I guess one of their videos that was talking about abortion and so they had her on to the show she wanted to come on and and and talk to them about these things and you know, she mentioned that she herself was a rape victim and.

She told a little bit about what happened to her and and then I remember. You know Jeff she was kind of floored when she asked what they thought Should happen to her rape victim because first they had asked her and she she said to her rapist.

Oh, yeah to her to a rapist I mean and and first they had asked her what she thought should happen to her rapist and and it was pretty terrifying some of the things that she said it was pretty much like, you know, what you would imagine probably happened in like some Japanese POW camps during World War two, you know capturing Americans and and Chinese soldiers and what probably happened to a lot of them or.

She was describing a lot of things that sounded like they came straight out of one of those camps should happen to their rape. They're her rapist but then she asked Jeff what he thought should have happened to her rapist and you know, his response was essentially hey, you know what if if it was proven that he really did rape you and and you reported it to the police who then took it to the court and a judge heard it and ruled that.

That he was guilty. He did rape you then he should be put to death. He should die at the by the government's hand and. And that would be justice. For you, you know, and and she was kind of surprised that he said that but then the reality is that is Justice for the rape the rape victim now, obviously it doesn't undo what's already happened, right, but then you at least have the.

The.

You know, I don't the comfort I don't know the right word, but there there's some resolution there at least knowing hey this person's going to Die for their actions, but then even beyond that if you even if that doesn't happen.

We if you're a Christian, you know, hey Regardless of Who gets away with what eventually one day? we're all going to stand before God and God is a perfect judge who knows everything and And he will exact a perfect type of justice where people don't escape the consequence the consequences of their action if they're outside of Christ, right and and so.

It's you know, it's just funny to hear all of these people kind of have that as an argument. Hey, we we're the ones defending the the rights of the victim.

Rape, Forgiveness, and the Limits of Victimhood

Yeah, I think it's. You know, part of the discussion is what do you do with a victim in general?

And.

That's I mean, it's a very relevant Discussion in general and I mean, I don't want to trivialize rape or something like that. But the Bible talks about no temptations overtaking you but what's common to man?

Like the problem is that you know, everyone knows what it's like to be abused in some sense and you know I'm not trying to say that there should be no Differentiation of punishments or something like that.

I agree with Jeff and I what the Bible says about you know. If someone rapes someone they should be put to death and just like the other subject, you know, we can't apply that retroactively. We need to you know, make it a law if we're gonna reflect what the Bible says and then you know going forward.