February 8, 2019 Show with Edward Dalcour on “T. D. Jakes & The Trinity: Should Biblical Christians Call this Best-Selling Author Our Brother in Christ?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City,.

Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this eighth day of February 2019.

I'm so delighted that after so many postponements and cancellations and Edward and myself going back and forth having to move the date of our interview that the day has finally come where our Lord actually has provided us the opportunity to be live again with Edward Delcor.

He is probably the most postponed guest in the history of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and Edward Delcor is founder of the Department of Christian Defense, and he's the author of the classic work critiquing modalism today called A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology in the Light of Biblical Trinitarianism.

Today we're going to be addressing T .D. Jakes and the Trinity. Should biblical Christians call this best-selling author our brother in Christ? We're also going to be announcing the upcoming Bible conference where Edward Delcor is among other speakers on the roster.

The Bible conference in Mechanicsville, Virginia titled Behold Our Triune God, and it's my honor and privilege to.

Welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Edward Delcor. Thank you very much, Chris. Yeah, it's been a long time. Yeah, the G3 conference. Yeah, that was awesome. Good to see everybody.

Yeah, it was terrific to share fellowship with you, and I'm so delighted that you are very heavily involved with my dear friend Joe Jakiewicz and First Love Radio and First Love Publishing and First Love Missions.

It's just a joy to know that you are.

Collaborating with such a dear friend. Yeah, yeah. Amen, and by the way, do you have any updates on.

What's going on over in Kenya where our friend and brother Joe Jakiewicz is laboring right now?

I understand there's some dangerous activity going on there. Yeah, I heard about it. Okay,.

Well, hopefully we will hear good word from Joe Jakiewicz very soon. Yeah. Before we go into our subject at hand, which is T .D. Jakes and the Trinity Should Biblical Christians Call This Best-Selling Author Our Brother in Christ, tell our listeners something about the Department of.

Christian Defense. And tell us something about this book of yours that has become a classic.

For those who are apologetically minded in efforts to have dialogue with their Oneness Pentecostal friends, a definitive look at Oneness theology in the light of Biblical Trinitarianism.

Yeah. When you say they, are you referring to the United Pentecostal Church International? No, no. Yes, and of course the palpable irony of the Trinity Broadcasting Network allowing.

Oneness. Pentecostals on their network when the very name that they chose to identify themselves.

With is the Trinity. That's kind of strange. Well, and I hear... Yes, in fact, back in the early.

20th century, I believe, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that the Assemblies of God had the Biblical orthodoxy and the passion for truth in regard to the Trinity that they.

Excommunicated the Oneness Pentecostals. Am I right? Yes, in fact, I've... Before we go any,.

Before we go any further into the topic of our discussion, I want to make sure that we begin announcing The Behold, our Triune God Conference, which is being held in Mechanicsville, Virginia. And in fact, I was honored to interview the pastor of that church, Knox Reform Presbyterian Church in Mechanicsville, which is a congregation in the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America, and its pastor is Jeff Downs.

Tell us about this conference that's coming up that you are going to be joining the roster to present your own sessions on the Trinity.

Yeah, we... In fact, if you would do me a favor, I... Anthony Rogers is the only one of the speakers.

Who is not a friend of mine. I've never met nor spoken with Anthony that I can recall. If you could give me information off the air, contact information, because I would love to get him on.

Before the conference as well. Yeah, absolutely. Presbyterian Theological Center. Yeah, and.

If you haven't had the time to share fellowship with Jeff Waddington, he is a friend of mine. I really enjoy Jeff, not only because of his brilliance, but because he is, for a Reformed scholarly brother, he has an enormously bizarre and hilarious sense of humor.

You know, I wanted to meet him. Yeah, I heard him. Oh, he's not going to be there at this conference? No, he had to drop out, so I think he's going to... Oh, I did not know that. As Johnny Carson used to say, I did not know that.

Yeah, I take... Movies and music actually distort God? I'm shocked. I'm shocked. Classics, obviously. So, you find yourself repetition here.

Well, for anybody who either lives in Virginia or wants to travel there, whether you take a train, plane, or automobile, you can go to knoxreformedpres .org, K-N-O-X-R-E-F-O-R-M-E-D-P-R-E-S-D-O-T-O-R-G.

That is the website of Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church in Mechanicsville, Virginia, where the conference is being held from March 1st through the 3rd. March 1st through the 3rd, and hopefully we'll be repeating this information throughout.

The program. It's right... It's a suburb of Richmond. Okay. Yeah. And by the way, brother,.

Just a request. Try to keep your mouth as close to whatever mouthpiece you're using, or microphone, because you do cut in and out occasionally. So... Okay, I'll hold it up. And I'm going to give our email address for those of you who want to join us on the air with a question for Edward Delcor on Oneness Pentecostalism, on the Trinity itself, or specifically on T .D. Jakes, which is the primary theme today, T .D. Jakes and the Trinity.

Should biblical Christians call this bestselling author our brother in Christ? Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. I think it would be wise for us to start off the primary segment of our interview today with as brief a definition or description of the Trinity that you would deem to be biblically orthodox, and basically the minimum that you believe biblically sound Christians must believe about the Triune Godhood in order to be considered biblically orthodox.

Yeah, in fact, I'm sure you get a belly laugh as much as I do watching the Lutheran satire video with the two Irishmen correcting St. Patrick on the many allegories that St. Patrick is drumming up to describe the Trinity.

Of course, these were not really the words of St. Patrick in the video, but I think it's absolutely hysterical. And it's also, I think, education, that video.

It is. Yeah.

As I have brought up on my program probably more often than my listeners care to remember, because I repeat myself a lot, but just as the Apostle Paul, when he was rebuking the church in Galatia, he treated those who were duped by the Judaizers in the church in a much less harsh way than he treated the Judaizers.

He called the Galatians, the Christians in the church of his brethren, and yet the Judaizers he had held in a completely different level of disdain, and he held an entirely different category for them.

He believed that they were damned, obviously, from the harshness of his words. So I think the same could apply for the Trinity, where you might be confused, because as simple as it may be to explain, it's obviously a deeply mysterious and perplexing issue that none of us can fathom the depths of it completely,.

Otherwise we would be God ourselves, if we could. Yes, in fact...

You might have to repeat that last statement, brother, because you cut out. I'm sorry.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Well, tell us now something about the main figure that we are going to be discussing today, and the reason why I wanted to discuss T .D. Jakes personally, and who knows, maybe we can get him on to respond to everything that was said today, but T .D. Jakes is a greatly beloved figure even amongst Trinitarian or professingly Trinitarian evangelicals, perhaps especially in the African American community, but not exclusively.

I can remember after 9 -11, I was in a sales meeting for a Christian radio station that is a part of the largest Christian radio network in the world, and we were having a sales meeting on how to have the best response to this, to give encouragement and counsel and comfort to the body of Christ in the tri-state area of New York City, and one of the primary, or should I say initial, ideas that was presented to us in the sales meeting, I was an account executive at that time, I was not a talk show host, and the initial word of very strong advice that we had from somebody in the upper echelons of the management there was, we've got to get T .D. Jakes here, we've got to get T .D. Jakes to come to Manhattan to give a word to Christians on how we should be responding to this, and I raised my hand and I said, excuse me, T .D. Jakes doesn't believe in the Trinity?

Oh, here goes Chris Arnson again nitpicking, and I was like, wow, I didn't know that belief in the Trinity was nitpicking, and I also said, well, you know who takes this issue seriously about the Trinity?

You know who takes it very seriously? One is Pentecostals take it very seriously, and of course in varying degrees, but I wanted to address T .D. Jakes because he is held in such high esteem even by Trinitarians, and he is, I don't know if he still is the top selling Christian author today, but I can recall back in the 90s when I was still working for this Christian radio network, he was the, at least for a number of years, the number one Christian author, and I use the term just because of the way that the book selling industry would describe it, the number one selling Christian author that there was in existence.

So there's obviously, this is very important reason to address someone of his stature, and on top of that there is confusion and a realm of mystery involved into what Mr. Jakes really believes. There are lots of rumors that he had repented of his oneness heresy and become Trinitarian, and I've heard the same kinds of rumors about Phillips, Craig, and Dean, which we could go into in a little bit, a very well-known award-winning Christian, and I use the term as the industry does, quote quote Christian recording artists, but that are one is Pentecostal, but if you could tell us as much as you can about the origins of T .D. Jakes and bring us to the point of where he is today in his profession, and by the way, in fact, what we're going to do, so I don't interrupt you mid-sentence, we're going to have you do that when we return from the break, because we have to go to our first break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, perhaps you are a one that's Pentecostal and you don't want to draw attention to yourself, you are either questioning your beliefs or the beliefs you used to hold, or you want to strongly defend them and you just don't want to identify yourself, we could understand why you would want to remain anonymous, but other than that, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages with Edward Delcor, and our subject, T .D. Jakes and the Trinity.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Edward Delcor. He is the founder of the Department of Christian Defense and author of a definitive look at Oneness Theology in the Light of Biblical Trinitarianism.

We are going to be discussing today T .D. Jakes and the Trinity, Should Biblical Christians Call This Best-Selling Author Our Brother in Christ? Also, we want you to know about the upcoming Bible conference in Mechanicsville, Virginia, Behold Our Triune God, where Edward Delcor is on the speaking roster.

That's March 1st through the 3rd. And once again, if you want more details on that conference, which we hope as many of you as possible will attend, you can go to knoxreformedpres .org. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Edward Delcor on T .D. Jakes or on Oneness Pentecostalism in general or on the Trinity, our email address is chrisarnson gmail .com.

And Edward, as I said before the break, I'd like you to give us as much history about T .D. Jakes as possible, as much as you know, in a summary form, obviously, in regard to where he came from, what denominations or fellowships or organizations he has been involved in theologically because of the fact there is a wide spectrum of Oneness Pentecostalism or anti-Trinitarianism or Unitarianism out there, ranging from those that consider the issue of the Godhead in regard to Trinity versus Oneness.

The spectrum ranges from a wide group of people, beginning with those that believe that Trinitarianism is a heresy, that it's really tritheism, it's really the belief in three gods, no matter what we say.

They would say that we are lost if we believe this. And then you have all the way over on the other spectrum, a group that seeks to be considered just one of many Christian denominations in modern evangelicalism.

They may hold their Oneness views with great importance, but they still consider Trinitarians their brethren in Christ. And of course, we cannot judge the motives of those individuals, how much of that is sincere or how much of that is a smokescreen.

And of course, that would change from person to person and church to church, I'm assuming. But tell us about what you.

Know about T .D. Jakes. Now, how does Time Magazine, a secular magazine not known for its high view of.

Christianity, how do they come up with a criteria that gives them the so-called right to choose.

America's best pastor? If you look at the most popular preachers, you know, you got Jakes, you got... Oh yeah, he has a great oratory gift. He's mesmerizing. I think he speaks with great authority.

And his God-given voice adds to that. I mean, he has a great voice, has a great radio voice, better than mine. But as far as official affiliation or denominational ties, has he changed over the years and what denomination or affiliation he has had?

Has he been always independent? You know, because as we've said before, you have the United Pentecostal Church International. Even Robert Sabin, who used to be a part of that denomination, left and is a part of the apostolic groups, which very often when you see the word apostolic, I'm sure you would agree, very often, not always, but very often there is a tie to oneness theology.

But he has a much more kinder and gentler version of that than he used to in that he views Trinitarians as his brothers. I'm speaking of Robert Sabin, and I'm assuming T .D. Jakes does as well. So if you could tell us about Jake's denominational affiliation, and if he ever was a vehement oneness Pentecostal to the.

Degree that he would view Trinitarians as false believers. I would guess that since oneness.

Theology represents a tiny minority of professing Christians, and I emphasize the word professing, that he would be horrified at the notion of losing followers from the Trinitarian base, because they have to make up the majority of those.

If he is a best-selling author, there's no way that the majority of those purchasing his books could be one that's Pentecostal.

Yeah, tell us specifically, especially for those who have no idea what you're speaking about,.

The Elephant Room. Tell us about the Elephant Room, who participated in it, and the specific episode, for lack of a better term, of the Elephant Room that involved T .D. Jakes. And I understand that he was being addressed by the term brother, and so on.

But if you could,.

Let our listeners know about the Elephant Room. Absolutely. Well, he is saying that.

Perhaps people who believe in the Trinity are viewed as believing in three gods, tritheists,.

According to them, versus the Trinity. It's obviously an accusation that Trinitarianism is not monotheism. Yeah, I don't even understand that statement. Right, that looked like him. Yeah, that is strange.

Yeah, he did make three. Those are roles, not personal distinctions. Yeah, exactly. I am the father, in the father? I am, A .M. Oh, okay. Yeah. Now, that was a deal. If you could actually tell our listeners what that is, because I don't think we ever described, what is the Elephant Room?

You know, it's similar. And.

Who are the hosts of this, especially the ones that were involved in the T .D. Jakes interview?

Back then, it was Hester. And by the way, I don't want anybody to hate me, but I have heard James.

McDonald say some excellent things, and I actually read a book by him that I thought was excellent. But in fact, Ted Tripp, a very well-known Reformed theologian, has a very high regard and close friendship with James McDonald.

But I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Oh, yeah. By the way, I have to quickly correct myself. I think I said Ted Tripp has a close.

Friendship with James McDonald. It's his brother, Paul. I'm sorry, Ted, if I caused you any discomfort. But it's Ted's brother, Paul, who is a Presbyterian and a prolific writer and highly regarded Reformed author and pastor.

He has a close friendship with James McDonald and holds him in high regard and so on. But anyway, I just wanted to make a correction because I don't know what Ted thinks of James McDonald. I didn't want to put words in his mouth.

But anyway,.

Sorry about that. In fact, let's pick up right there, where we left off, because we have to go.

To our midway break right now. This is a longer than normal break. So we have to have this longer break than normal because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, needs to localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to their local surroundings.

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Sgbcsa .com. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Our churches and our people need to be well-grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people. If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and if you just joined us,.

Our guest today for the full two hours is Edward Delcor, founder of Department of Christian Defense, author of A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology in the Light of Biblical Trinitarianism, and we are discussing today T .D. Jakes and the Trinity.

Should biblical Christians call this best-selling author our brother in Christ? Our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.