The American Churchman: The First Thanksgivings

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Welcome to the American Churchman podcast, where we encourage men to fulfill their biblical responsibilities, live for Christ, and be men, which is something you don't have as much as you probably should have today.

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I am joined today with a special guest, Sean McGowan. Sean's actually been on my other podcast, which is called

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Conversations That Matter, but this is his first time on the American Churchman, so welcome, Pastor Sean McGowan.

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It's good to be here, brother. Good to see you. Thanks for joining me. For those wondering where Matthew Pearson is, he had a family obligation tonight, and so I think a lot of people do this week as it's

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Thanksgiving, and we decided to go ahead and do the show anyway and talk specifically about Thanksgiving, because Sean wrote a great article on the first Thanksgiving in Virginia.

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But before we get to that, just a little housekeeping business. The American Churchman is sponsored by TruthScript.

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If you want to know more about the American Churchman or TruthScript, just go to truthscript .com, and you can check it out there.

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We also have on the website, I want to point out the conference coming up in Sullins Grove, Pennsylvania from April 25th and 26th on Christianity and the founding.

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If you go to truthscript .com and click on that tab, it'll take you to a place you can sign up. It is a steal,

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I'm telling you. TruthScript is underwriting this. It's going to cost some money for us, but we want it to be affordable for people who are coming, so it's only $30 to pay to come.

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Sean's actually one of our speakers, so he's going to be there as well. Of course, as always, if you want to donate to TruthScript, we are a 501c3.

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Scroll to the bottom, and you can donate there under the Donate tab. With that, Sean, I'm going to jump right into it because we usually do an attribute of God, and I do that with Matthew Pearson.

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He loves doing it. I'm going to save the next attribute for him. We'll just talk about Thanksgiving a little bit.

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Your article, of course, is up right now. The title of it is,

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Love Thanksgiving, Thank Virginia, which, of course, I like as the director and producer of the 1607

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Project. Virginia will always hold a very special place in my heart. I did live there for a few years, but I think just the history of Virginia is fascinating.

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It's sad to see politically and socially, mostly in Northern Virginia, I suppose, where some things have gone because it's just different.

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A lot of people from outside the state have moved in and changed some things, but Virginia is still Virginia. I know,

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Sean, you're from Virginia, I believe, right? Yeah, I'm from Spotsylvania County, Virginia. It's central

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Virginia, about 40 miles north of Richmond. We kind of straddle that line with Northern Virginia, but I know exactly what you're talking about, man.

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It changed quite a bit, even from when I grew up there and lived there. Yeah, you're not there now.

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I should probably just let you plug where people can find you and that kind of thing because I know you're a pastor, you're in the

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PCA, you're a trustee actually of Covenant College.

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Tell us a little bit about yourself and if people want to ask you questions after hearing you talk about this, where they can go to find you.

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Yeah, so I'm a PCA minister in Tallahassee, Florida, Westminster Presbyterian Church.

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I've been there for about four years. I've actually been out of Virginia for about,

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I guess now seven. I was in Alabama for four years, too. Yeah, I mean, my only really social media presence is

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Twitter. I refuse to call it X. Twitter, Irish Presby, at Irish Presby.

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That's the tag. No one can mistake you for not being Irish when they look at you. No, probably not. Nope. So, are you

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Old Stock, Virginia? I mean, I'm just curious how far your family goes because I know there's a lot of Scotch -Irish settlement in that area.

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But yeah, go ahead. Yeah, no, I'm not.

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We're a transplant. Actually, my mother's grandparents came over from Northern Ireland.

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So, my grandmother's a first -generation American. And then my dad's side is actually from New England.

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And they came over from, I guess, a couple generations beyond his grandparents.

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My dad's, they came over from Ireland, too. So, no, I'm not Old Stock, anything like that.

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But, you know, grew up in Virginia. Love Virginia. Love the history. Well, his name is,

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I mean, I'm assuming your father and you shared the same last name, McGowan, right? So, he must be Irish, right?

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Yes, yeah. Okay. His background, yeah. So, my dad's family came over from, originally from the

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Republic of Ireland. So, I actually have ancestors from the

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Republic, particularly in County Kerry. And my mom's grandparents came over from County Down and County Armagh in Northern Ireland.

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Oh, okay. Yeah. So, I got a little bit of both. Yeah. So, it's, I mean, it's a slight difference.

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But, you know, we have, I think, is Louisiana the only state that doesn't have counties?

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I think every other state, I think, has counties. Yeah, but we usually, in America, we refer to it like I live in Ulster County, right?

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Which is, I mean, it sounds actually kind of like Northern Irish, right? Ulster County. But, and I'm in the town of Highland too, which is.

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Okay, yeah. It almost sounds like I'm in Scotland. But, I think it's better. I should just call it

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County Ulster. It just sounds better. I don't know why. Oh, yeah. But, no, very cool.

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So, it's awesome. I love talking to people about their background and their heritage. And I could just go on about that forever.

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Yeah, part of the reason I love, you know, I grew up in Spotsylvania, which is where Fredericksburg is a city.

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And if you know, I mean, goodness, George Washington's mother lived in the city of Fredericksburg. James Monroe practiced law in the city of Fredericksburg.

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And then you got the, you know, Civil War, the Battle of Fredericksburg, Battle of Chancellorsville. I mean, that's all, that was all my backyard.

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And, you know, when I was younger, I took it for granted. But, I've grown to appreciate it more that I've gotten older.

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Yeah. Well, you know, I was seeing some pictures of that area in Fredericksburg recently.

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And some of those places haven't changed since the Civil War. I mean, they look the same.

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The buildings are the same. They've tried to keep them, period. Which I think is awesome.

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I actually grew up in a home that was from the 1700s. We don't know exactly the date. We found the cornerstone for the barn, which was probably built after.

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And that was like 17, I think it was 1781, if I'm not mistaken.

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But, so, yeah, I mean, somewhere in there. It's 1770s probably our home was built.

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And I just, it's the coolest thing. Because you feel like you're walking through a museum every day.

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I lived in that. And I took it for granted growing up. But history is around us. And when you go to Europe, I think it's even deeper.

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People can remember back hundreds of years. Here it's more shallow.

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But we still do have a rich history going back hundreds of years. And I think what you wrote about Thanksgiving.

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I mean, this is one of our oldest traditions, I guess you could say. And it's quintessentially

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American, right? I remember a few years ago, my wife's cousin, she lives in England.

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And they were calling in for Thanksgiving. We were talking on the phone. And her husband has a

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British accent and stuff. And he was there. And it occurred to me. I was kind of like, what are you guys doing for Thanksgiving?

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He was like, we don't do Thanksgiving. I was like, oh, right, right, right. It is a very

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American holiday. And so part of our national identity. And one of my favorites.

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I don't know, is it your favorite holiday? Or is it a stack? I mean, it's up there.

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Christmas is hard to contend with. Yeah, yeah. I love Thanksgiving, though. Just the traditions, the family, all of those things.

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So yeah, the history. So it's definitely up there. I don't know if I could grade the holidays first, second, or third.

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But it's definitely up there for sure. I mean, you're all supposed to say Easter, Resurrection Sunday, right? As Christians, we're always told that.

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But I have to confess, Christmas is my favorite. But Thanksgiving is definitely close.

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I like it. In some ways in our family, it seems that we kind of rush to Christmas.

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And I'll put up the tree and all those things. And it's like, well, wait a minute. We got to appreciate

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Thanksgiving first. I mean, everybody's jumping to Christmas. I was like that my whole life.

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So today was the first day I started listening to Christmas music. I've never done it this early. And I think it's because I have a kid now.

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And I'm trying to show my daughter Christmas songs.

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So anyway. All right. Well, let's talk. We could jab on forever here and chew the cud.

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But let's talk about your article. We usually think of Thanksgiving in connection to the pilgrims.

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And in this article, obviously the title gives it away. That you're tracing the

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Thanksgiving celebration back to Virginia. So I think the first thing we should probably cover.

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And since you're the author, I usually read articles. You don't need to do that. But why even talk about the

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Virginians? Because if I'm not mistaken, the first Thanksgiving. Because we've had days of Thanksgiving.

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But the first Thanksgiving declaration that was traceable to the pilgrims was pretty early.

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Which president? Do you know which president it was? Oh, yeah. I don't.

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Offhand, I don't know. But I think it was pretty early. Yeah. I'll look it up real quick.

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Because there's two in my mind. And I don't want to get it wrong here. All right.

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So while I'm looking that up. I know that it was traceable to the pilgrims.

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That was the first recognizable Thanksgiving celebration. That we trace our tradition back to.

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But it wasn't until, I think, you say it was the 1930s or so. That we actually rediscovered that actually that wasn't the first.

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Yeah. And I was right. My first inclination was right. It was Abraham Lincoln. So you would leave it to him to say that it was the pilgrims, right?

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I will say I was thinking him. But you said earliest. So it made me question. Lincoln's not that early, technically.

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All right. So I will confess. I was thinking either George Washington or Lincoln. And with Washington, I know he had days.

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There were days of, you know, prayer and penitence. And so that was just in America from the beginning.

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And I couldn't remember if I was confusing that with the Thanksgiving celebration there. But yeah,

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I just looked it up. And it's Abraham Lincoln. At least that's that's who the internet credits with the first Thanksgiving.

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Makes sense. Declaration. National Declaration, right? Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting.

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I do say in the article that I wonder how many Virginians actually realized that there was a

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Thanksgiving in Virginia before. Because according to according to the research that I've seen, it was it was

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Lion Tyler, who was the son of John Tyler, President John Tyler. And he was

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Lion Tyler was the president of the College of William and Mary. And I think it was in the 19th late 19th century in the

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New York Public Library. He discovered these papers. So this is, you know, late 19th century, you know, late 1880s, you know, 1890s.

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Maybe he discovered this collection of papers in the New York Public Library known as the

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Nibley Papers. And they were they were named after John Smith.

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Ironically enough, his name is John Smith. It wasn't, you know, the John Smith of Jamestown. It was S .M .Y

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.T .H. John Smith of Nibley. And he documented I think it was

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I don't have the article in front of me now. I think it was 1608 or 09 to 1622. This this history of Virginia.

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And it's in those papers that we find the account of this

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Thanksgiving. So when when Dr. Tyler discovered this, he goes on to publish his findings in 1931.

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And it seems that that was the first time many Virginians, let alone other

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Americans, learned about this about this Thanksgiving. So, you know,

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I remember I was in elementary school. You know, even even when I grew up, I never heard of it. So it's still it's still,

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I think, even now, relatively unknown. But that was when it was discovered. So, you know, who knows when it was lost?

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I don't I don't know the answer to that. And how many Virginians before the late 19th, early 20th century actually knew about this about this

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Thanksgiving? So that's that's who discovered it. And John John Smith of Nibley was one of the travelers.

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There were four men that were granted land in Virginia to travel over and to plant this this settlement on what would be what would come to be known as Berkeley Plantation.

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So he was one of the men that that traveled on the ship Margaret over to Virginia in 1619.

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Gotcha. So just to correct one thing, I was I was right on both counts. Washington actually was the first one to issue on Thursday, the 26th of November, Thanksgiving proclamation and celebration for Thanksgiving.

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But it wasn't established as a like a regular occurrence until Abraham Lincoln.

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So there you go. They both get to take some credit there. All right. So back to the

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Berkeley Plantation, maybe explain that to people, because early on in Virginia settlement, you had all these different plantations going up the

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Chesapeake, the James River, the Chesapeake Bay. They were spreading out into Delaware and Virginia.

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And and I think we're so out of touch with that era of history, but these are essentially land grants from England that prominent individuals would they would ascertain.

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And then that was their land to farm tobacco or do whatever they wanted to do with them. Yeah. So it seems that from from from my understanding and again, a lot of the history is kind of scant history, you know, because it was it was relatively unknown.

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My understanding is that the the area where these men came from, the industry there,

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I think was a wool industry and it fell on hard times. And many people from that area were looking to go to Virginia to to try to make a profit.

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So it's actually King James, the first that granted this land to these four men.

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And and that's what prompted them to go. And they took a they took a group with them.

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And I believe after this group, this group arrived there the year after the rest of the settlement that was going to come over came over.

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So that's that's how they acquired the land and and then went over there to really make make profit what they what they could not do back in England.

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And one of the things you hear about the Virginia settlement is that they were a bunch of businessmen or adventurers looking for gold.

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And that was what was on their minds, whereas the pilgrims and the

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Puritans after them were looking to establish a theocratic society.

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They were in it for maybe more noble reasons, depending on whose perspective you're asking.

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But, you know, within that, you find things that seem to, in my mind, put a wrench in that narrative.

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This is one of them. Obviously, the first landing is one of them where they erect a cross.

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Even the charter talks about the propagation of the gospel. So there's this Christian language.

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They establish a church. I mean, it's all it's the Church of England, but this is this is all there from the beginning.

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And so why would they then what was the purpose that as far as we know of them giving thanks?

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What how much do we know about what it entailed? Did it have the feasting like was it like the pilgrims or what was it?

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Yes. So obviously, you know, they I mean, again, people in that context at that in that day and age, you know, they were thoroughly

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Christian. Whether every single person was, you know, personally converted is a different question.

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But that was their that was their background. That's what they knew. So it's almost natural.

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It seems probably to the first thing you do when you arrive in a in difficult in a difficult circumstance, you know, traveling on a ship where you could have died four or five different times from different storms to acknowledge to acknowledge almighty

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God. And that was really what the first thanks the first English Thanksgiving was.

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They arrived. It was it was a very difficult travel. They encountered multiple severe storms where they really thought they were going to lose their life.

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And then they when they finally arrived, I think it was December 4th, 1619. So, again, keep this in mind.

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December 4th, 1619, they arrived. The pilgrims had not even left for the

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New World yet. They even left on the Mayflower. They arrived December 4th, 1619.

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And as they grow up to what would become Berkeley Plantation, the first thing they do is they put down their put down their bags, put down everything they were traveling with.

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And the captain, who is a man named John Woodleaf or Woodleaf, he ended up becoming the governor of the

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Berkeley land. He commanded everybody to get down on their knees and he and he prayed to God.

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And he thanked God for safe travel. And then he proclaimed this

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Thanksgiving to God to be a perpetual holy day. That's key right there.

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So so there was no there was no feasting. There were no no Indians that they that they feasted with.

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Nothing like that. But the first English Thanksgiving was in Virginia.

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And it was it was proclaimed to be a day where people would acknowledge

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Almighty God and give him thanks for what they blessed for what he has blessed them with. And yeah,

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I think it is important to acknowledge this is a year before the pilgrims came. And if the pilgrims had actually arrived at their originally intended destination, which was

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Virginia, we may not have heard about like like the tradition would have been different.

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I think at least I mean, because they would have been tapping into something that was already there and there was already a perpetual celebration of Thanksgiving.

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How long did that go on that perpetuity? Yeah, that's that's a good question. I don't know the answer to that.

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I can imagine it went on for some time. But, you know, because of the because of the lost connection to this

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Thanksgiving, you wonder if it if it stopped. Yeah, because there was there was no acknowledgement of it for a long time.

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And, you know, the pilgrims, when they celebrated initially, I think that was in October. And, you know, here we have what day did you say that they celebrated?

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No, December 4th, December 4th, December 4th. Right. OK. Yeah. So, I mean, neither of those is in late

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November. So that that's probably from George Washington then initially that why we, you know, he set that time as a time to give thanks.

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But I mean, this is this is harvest time anyways. And it taps into even though the initial purpose of both

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Thanksgivings weren't necessarily harvest. They were they were survival and just Thanksgiving to God that we made it.

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But but it's close enough that this kind of gets wedded to harvest celebration.

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And that's something, of course, if we tie it to that, that goes back all the way to ancient times, including to Israel and Thanksgiving to God for a good crop.

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And so it's just I think for America, we do have this unique holiday, but we also should recognize as believers that this is also bigger than that.

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And well, I love I don't know if at the bottom or at the end of the article,

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I give a little bit of a account of when when this was when this was recognized or at least there were forced acknowledgments of this history.

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And one of the kind of funny accounts is during the Kennedy administration, there was a there was a state senator from Virginia and he was an attorney named

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John J. Wicker, Wicker, Jr. And in Kennedy's 1962

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Thanksgiving proclamation, he gives he gives full credit to the pilgrims. You know, he talks about them coming over and all the hardship and everything like that.

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Well, the senator from Virginia was was not happy. So he he sent a letter to Kennedy.

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And I mean, he had the documentation. He had the evidence, all these things. And he received a response from a historian who was working in the

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Kennedy administration at the time, Arthur Schleisinger, Jr.,

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I think is his name, Arthur Schleisinger. And and actually it was it was a full acknowledgment that he that he was correct and they were wrong.

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And I forgot the exact words, but Schleisinger chalked it up to extreme

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New England bias on behalf of the administration. Of course, Kennedy's from Massachusetts, you know.

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So but anyway, to his credit, you know, Kennedy's November 1963

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Thanksgiving proclamation, which was keep in mind what, two weeks or so before he was assassinated, gave credit to Virginia.

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Of course, he gave credit to Massachusetts, too. I mean, he wasn't going to you know, he wasn't going to let that go. But he says you could read it.

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Yeah, yeah. Virginia and Massachusetts. I think it's an audio or video recording, too.

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I feel like I remember hearing it. And that was credited to this this lowly state senator from Virginia who told him to get his facts right.

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Now they're proud of it in Virginia. I mean, I at least you know, I don't know to what extent it's a statewide thing, but I know

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PBS did a whole special documentary on it and how

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Lyon Tyler Gardner found the Virginia company records that showed that this happened.

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And yeah, there was a parade. I think there's a. And I mean, you could go to the

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Berkeley plantation today. I mean, that's where a lot of these facts for the article came from. And they have all kinds of stuff there.

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So, yeah, I mean, I think I think Virginia is rightfully embraced it now that they realize that that they were first.

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Yeah. And just another example, my audience is tired of hearing it probably, but just another example like how

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Virginia is first there and predates New England on so many things, that being one.

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Let me ask you this. So, you know, given we have this

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Anglican tradition in Virginia, we have this Puritan or the pilgrims are, of course, separatists, but, you know, this reformed congregational type tradition in New England.

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Where do the Presbyterians fit in since you're a Presbyterian? Yeah. So, well, the

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Presbyterians, I mean, had a had a strong presence, you know, obviously originally in places like Pennsylvania, but then trickled down to to Virginia and to places like North Carolina, you know, the

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South Carolina. But, you know, you have you have people like Samuel Davies and even even before him,

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Francis McKinney, who were in Virginia. And one of the things that Samuel Davies did was he challenged he challenged the

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Church of England and actually argued for the act of toleration, saying that it was applicable to the colonies.

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So, I mean, you know, the Presbyterians were dissenters, but they played a very prominent role in in establishing religious toleration.

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And then also, you know, into the 19th century, I mean, you have some of the great, you know, Presbyterians in Virginia, like like Dabney and others.

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And and then in South Carolina. So I'd say the Presbyterians, you know, they obviously didn't have an established church in any of the any of the the colonies and in the states.

26:56

But they had a strong presence in places like Pennsylvania and and Virginia and South Carolina as well.

27:04

Yeah. You know, Virginia is probably credited more than any other state, and it should be with propagating religious toleration, freedom, mostly because of Jefferson's bill of religious freedom.

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But, you know, you look back at the transition because it was a transition from the

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Church of England to a more of an expanded toleration. And, you know, even Jefferson the same year wanting to have

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Sabbath laws, you know, which which shows you that there were limitations to this.

27:38

But I wonder whether or not the secularists have overplayed their hand on that and tried to make the historical record say something it really doesn't say.

27:47

It seems to me that Virginia was long before New England, but New England eventually became more of this.

27:54

Well, actually, that's a difference. So maybe you tell me what you think of this. In my reading of it, Virginia became the pan

28:01

Protestant project and it was primarily Protestant, not saying there weren't some

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Catholics there, but it was Anglicans, then Episcopalians, of course,

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Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists. And in New England, you had basically the

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Congregationalists for years after even the Jefferson's bill there. They're still the official church.

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Your taxes go to them. And of course, though, they get hollowed out and basically rotted from the inside.

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They're no longer even Orthodox. And then the whole thing falls. Then then it's it's just this basically they just fall into Unitarianism and secularism overnight, whereas I think

28:46

Virginia kept that pan Protestant. And to me, that's what America really is, like on a definitional level more than, you know, if I had to compare the two,

28:56

I suppose I'm not saying both are America. But I think Virginia is more representative of what

29:02

America became and what some of the other colonies, especially in the South and even in the mid -Atlantic states, embrace, which was this pan

29:10

Protestantism. Of course, Maryland and Pennsylvania having more Catholics, but still not a majority at all.

29:16

So, yeah, go ahead. Fascinating. I mean, you know, because even even some of the things that I think we we think

29:24

America is because, you know, often we interpret what America is through like Jefferson's bill of religious freedom and all those things.

29:33

And we think of the founding fathers as as kind of a monolith. But it's fascinating that even even look at plays like Virginia and realize, no, there were strong differences even in the founding generation.

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I mean, you have someone like Madison pitted against Patrick Henry. Yeah, I was going to say Patrick Henry wasn't happy.

29:51

Right. Two men that we think are the founding generation and they differed on how much influence the state ought to have in.

30:01

Well, at least they differed on if the state should have any any play at all within maintaining a religious society where Patrick Henry wanted a general assessment tax.

30:12

So we're actually, no, you would you would be taxed. And if you were Baptist, you'd pay your tax to the

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Baptist Church. If you were Presbyterian, you'd pay your tax to the Presbyterian Church because he recognized the importance of religion in in civil society.

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So, I mean, I wonder how many people on the street would actually realize that someone like Patrick Henry, give me liberty or give me death advocated for that.

30:40

So, you know, I think I think that it's a bit more complex than we think. And, yeah,

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I mean, there were there were prominent, you know, prominent Christian voices, even in those debates, like the the

30:54

Hanover Presbytery, who was influencing that that discussion that was going on to the point where one time

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Madison ended up saying, you know, all the all the religious denominations are on my side, except the Presbyterians.

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Hanover Presbytery, but they eventually came into the fold and embraced Madison's position.

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But, yeah, I mean, I think I think your your assessment is correct that Virginia, Virginia really does reflect what what

31:24

America was supposed to be. And you see that today, too. I mean, it shows up not just in voting maps, but I was going to ask you as someone who's native

31:35

Virginia and, you know, I was I'm a little bit of a mud, I guess

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I was born in California. I grew up in New York, but one side of the family having

31:45

Midwestern sentiments, one side of the family having, I would say, Southern and Midwestern sentiments.

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It, you know, I felt like an oddball a little bit, not like weird, but just like I knew that in New York, sometimes

31:58

I stood out a little bit. Sometimes the things we did were a little different. And one of the things I was going to say, though, in New York is, you know, maybe it's everywhere now, but, you know,

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I don't know. I just want to see if it compares with your experience. Thanksgiving has become very much a secularized holiday where, you know,

32:20

I don't even think the pilgrims are hardly thought about. You make fun of like, you know, I've seen at Abbeville events and stuff.

32:26

They'll make fun of those pilgrim hats. And, you know, that was like maybe when I was a kid.

32:31

Right. I don't think that even is hardly around anymore. People don't know who those folks are. They probably know more about the

32:37

Indians. They don't even know much about them. And so. So anyway, like, what does it become?

32:46

The most conservative reading of it is it's a day for the family to get together. And traditionally, we have turkey.

32:53

But that's even fading. It's really just a day for sports, a day you get off.

32:59

You know, there's really I don't even know if you're supposed to be thankful to there. There's nothing in the culture that I can tell that reinforces that aspect of it, that this is

33:08

Thanksgiving to God. So, I mean, you're in Florida now. You've lived in the south, Alabama, Virginia.

33:14

Anything different there? I mean, I think growing up, I think there was more of a religious overtone to it.

33:23

You know, I mean, I grew up in the in the late 90s and there was certainly not the late 90s in Virginia, early 90s, late 90s in Virginia.

33:32

There were certainly, at least in my experience, a lot more religious overtones. I really think, you know,

33:39

Virginia's changed so much that there's so many people living there now, at least at least where I was living.

33:46

Central Virginia and certainly northern Virginia, that I mean, you know, a lot of that has disappeared,

33:55

I think. I think there's pockets, you know, you go to certain places in the state and especially small towns, rural counties.

34:02

You know, you'll find a lot of that still because there's a lot of religious people that acknowledge

34:09

God and his blessings. But, you know, in a lot of the cities and especially the further north you go,

34:15

I think a lot of that is lost. I mean, I did. I lived for some time in Massachusetts.

34:20

So I know I know exactly what you're talking about, where it's just it's so secular that there's there's no acknowledgement of God.

34:32

And I mean, even even the stories we all know from the Bible, a lot of people don't know.

34:39

You know, you can make references to biblical references and they have no idea what you're referring to.

34:44

I don't know if this is true, but someone told me they were at the Plymouth Plantation not long ago because they still have just like at Jamestown and at Williamsburg.

34:55

They have kind of a live reenactment thing going there. Yeah, but they were there not too long ago and they said, you know, it's changed so much even there and it's still a tourist trap.

35:03

But it's the pilgrims have kind of been side side. I don't know what you want to call it, like sideline.

35:11

That's the word I'm looking for. And it's become more, you know, the focus even at the plantation is more about the

35:18

Indians. So I don't know if this is all true because I haven't gone, but I was a kid when we went.

35:24

But that doesn't surprise me, you know, and there's a lot of the other thing was, OK, so here's the here's the kicker for this story.

35:29

The person who told me this said they went into a number of shops. They're looking for a Bible. And it's like people looked at them like they had two heads.

35:38

They couldn't find a Bible anywhere. And there was a bunch of they said like witchcraft type shops and things like that.

35:44

So there's there's sort of like a witch pagan presence now. And this is the area the pilgrims, of course, first landed.

35:51

You know, they would be mortified. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm I don't know if you have any ancestral connections.

35:59

It doesn't sound like it if it was Ireland. But, you know, I have connections going back to both places.

36:07

But specifically, at least my dad tells me that John Alden and Priscilla Mullins are direct ancestors, you know, and they got off the

36:14

Mayflower. And so, you know, I think of that like, you know, would they even have recognized the place that they landed?

36:22

They probably would be so disappointed today. Yeah. You know, we were up. I was up there not too long ago.

36:29

And Northampton, Massachusetts is not that far from where I was. So I ended up I ended up going there.

36:35

And I told my wife as I said, thankfully, we didn't take our kids because I mean,

36:40

Northampton, Massachusetts is like, you know, homosexual haven. Yeah.

36:46

And I mean, it's literally like it was just it was just I've never experienced something like that before, where the majority of the people are either that or they're heavy promoters of it.

36:59

And it's everywhere. And I found the church. It's no it's not the original church that that Edwards preached in, but it's an old church.

37:07

It was built on the on the grounds where Edwards Church was. But it goes back to like the late 19th century.

37:15

And I took a picture of it because there's this little tiny plaque there on the sidewalk of Edwards and like, you know, everything he did and everything like that.

37:26

And behind him is the church. And it's got this massive pride flag. And then and then the building next to it had a

37:33

BLM flag. And it is it was it was surreal, you know, being there and to imagine that that's where Edwards preached and and what it is today.

37:46

So, yeah, I mean, you know, it's exactly like Plymouth, New England's hard territory.

37:51

There's no doubt. God bless a friend of mine, Jake Dell, who just got a congregational church in Connecticut.

37:58

And it's it's when I think it sounded like to me like it was going to go under until he he got there is trying to revitalize.

38:07

But it's it's different. And I see people from the South try to come up from the Southern Baptist Convention or whatever.

38:14

And they just don't understand the New England mindset.

38:19

It's very different. It's it's hard to do the gimmicks. It's hard to do like we're going to have a family fun day for the kids.

38:25

You know, what kids? What kids? What are you talking about? Right. Yeah. Very true.

38:31

So but anyway, back to Thanksgiving, though, there were certain things that were universal and across denominations, across states.

38:40

And that was there. There was honoring the Sabbath. There was giving your due to God.

38:46

And that included Thanksgiving. And that was just natural. That wouldn't have been a weird thing. I mean, they there were

38:51

Thanksgiving proclamations called all the time or at least days of prayer that were called all the time in response to different events.

39:00

And that was a common thing. I think the last time I don't even know if George Bush's proclamation,

39:05

I think he had one after 9 -11. That was like the last time I can remember that there was a day of prayer from the office of the president.

39:15

It just doesn't happen anymore. But Biden didn't do that this year. Well, they always do something in relation to Thanksgiving.

39:22

Right. They like spare. They pardon a turkey or something. Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of a cute little tradition.

39:28

But it it misses the point. It's not about turkeys. In fact,

39:33

I'm trying to think, you know, with with these Thanksgiving proclamations or not necessarily tied to the holiday, but just occasionally.

39:44

And there was there was a lot of presidents that did it. And actually the

39:49

Presbyterians in their in their annual meeting would respond to those and declare days of prayer, days of prayers of Thanksgiving for their congregations.

40:04

So that wasn't sacralism. That wasn't, you know, no days of Thanksgiving are

40:09

OK. Those are the only holy days. But. But, yeah.

40:15

So it did happen often more than more than we think,

40:20

I guess, that they would do them. But oftentimes they were done for, you know, in situations of emergency and things like that.

40:29

But you reminded me of what the Sabbath with the calls for for honoring the

40:35

Sabbath. The Presbyterians certainly had no had no qualms asking the civil government to to honor the

40:42

Sabbath, particularly when it came to delivering the mail on Sunday. But one

40:48

I found fascinating was Stonewall Jackson. I want to say it was maybe the first year of the war when he he wrote an elder in the

41:01

Presbyterian Church of the Confederate States who was all who was going to the General Assembly. And he requested that that they would petition the civil government to honor the

41:13

Sabbath. And that's what they did. They went off to the assembly and they petitioned the civil government to honor the

41:20

Sabbath. And that was because of Jackson. So this is fascinating stories.

41:25

But, you know, the point being that, you know, the Protestants in the 19th century had no had no issue, you know, petitioning the civil government on things like that, because they they assumed that the country was a was a generally

41:41

Protestant country. So I think topic. But you just you just made me think of those things.

41:49

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was it was also decentralized. People don't realize that and they should because this gets into like the whole why wasn't

41:57

Christianity acknowledged in the Constitution? And we're a secular country and that kind of thing.

42:03

And if you realize what we were set up as a federal republic and those kinds of religious observances were, in fact, integrated into who we are.

42:13

But it was more on a local and state level. And there's perfectly good examples also from the general level.

42:20

But on those smaller levels, you had quite a bit more. In fact, after Washington's proclamation, there were apparently states that kept that tradition going, even though it didn't continue on the federal level.

42:34

And then Lincoln makes it a now it's it's going to be on the national level every single year.

42:43

And this is interesting to me. So so Lincoln is credited with making it the federal holiday that it is today.

42:49

Right. But he said the date, though, changed, though.

42:55

And that was FDR that actually shifted the date of Thanksgiving in 1939. He moved it up one week to the third

43:02

Thursday in November, which is, of course, what we celebrate now. And the reason for that, apparently, get this.

43:08

Now, I don't know if you knew this. It was in an effort to extend the Christmas shopping season and help businesses during the

43:13

Great Depression. No surprise. Yeah. So, you know, consume more. Get us out of this

43:19

Great Depression. We're going to move the Thanksgiving holiday. And that's why we have it the third

43:27

Thursday of November now. But, you know, the third Thursday of November is not too far off from December 4th, though.

43:33

So we're close to the original. We're closer to the Virginia celebration than we are to the Pilgrims mid -October celebration.

43:39

And, of course, the Pilgrims, it was a three day thing. Right. They feasted for three days and played games with the

43:46

Indians and that kind of thing. And, you know, but but yeah,

43:52

I think I think that's a fascinating thing, because especially when I was a kid, I noticed it was we didn't really have

44:00

Black Friday. Right. And then all of a sudden there was Black Friday. You probably remember this. And like and I remember,

44:06

I mean, I was part of that standing in line at like 5 a .m. to get a computer or a video game or something when

44:11

I was in my early teens. And then and then it just keep getting earlier and earlier and earlier.

44:17

And people were dying. And I worked security one year in a Walmart during Black Friday. I had to be there

44:22

Thanksgiving. You know, it was like the stores opened on Thanksgiving. I was like, this is getting ridiculous. And now we've come to the point now where we don't really do that anymore.

44:31

Like it's shot. It is Black Friday. There is shopping, but it's more online. And stores are generally closed on Thanksgiving, which

44:38

I'm glad for. That's good. But I don't know how much of that is due to the convenience of the

44:44

Internet connection and the cost of keeping a store open as it is to, you know, like,

44:50

I don't think that it's like the right motives that are probably necessarily closing the stores down. No, no, no.

44:56

Everybody's doing their shopping online. It's it's more convenient and easy, you know. Yeah. My wife went out last year and I was like,

45:04

I'm not doing that. I decided 10 years ago I'll go hunting. I'm not going in the stores, you know.

45:10

Yeah. It's it's it's just peace and quiet. I can't stand that. And I asked her last year, you know, how was it?

45:16

And she's like, no, I went too bad. You know, it's like a just kind of like a heavy Saturday shopping.

45:22

Everybody does it online now. I mean, there's no more stampedes where people are running over each other to get the big screen

45:29

TV or whatever. Yeah. So, well, I think we probably well, let's get to some questions.

45:36

I almost forgot. Hey, any questions? Anyone who's streaming here? Thanksgiving is the fourth.

45:43

Is the fourth Thursday today, isn't it? Oh, yeah, it is, isn't it? Did I say the third?

45:48

I guess it is. I think I did say the third. Yeah. So, yeah, it's the it would be the even closer to December 4th.

45:58

Yeah. Why did I say the third? I don't know why I said that. Because Franklin Roosevelt, what

46:05

I'm reading online here is he moved it up to the third Thursday in November. So did it change after that?

46:10

That's what I'm wondering. Oh, OK. Yeah. OK. So Roosevelt signed a bill into law in December 26, 1941, officially declaring

46:20

Thanksgiving to be celebrated on the fourth Thursday in November. OK, so I guess it must have shifted from 1939 to 1941.

46:26

It shifted. OK, so you had a great depression, depression measure. And I incorrectly he's right.

46:32

I incorrectly said that that's when we celebrate today. No, we don't. He we do celebrate

46:37

FDR's designation. But that was in 1941.

46:43

It was a later designation of the fourth. So, yeah, maybe if we have another depression, we'll extend the

46:49

Christmas shopping season again. And you need a Smith. But I made a big mistake there.

46:55

I did. Thank you for saving me there. We're at waxing nostalgic for the how how can

47:02

Halcyon days of trampled Walmart employees? Yeah. You used a word I don't know.

47:08

See, I'm not I might be a little smart, but I'm not that smart. Yeah, I remember to man working security at a

47:14

Walmart on Black Friday. Not something I would recommend. Jesus held the first Thanksgiving broke bread.

47:21

OK, well, you got me there. Yeah, we'll give that to Jesus. Anita says we have a new

47:29

American son in law. So we are doing another Thanksgiving this Saturday. I did that, too. You know,

47:34

I don't know if this has changed, too. But I mean, families have always been split and travel.

47:39

But I think because we're more fractured and more split apart and there's more distances, I've had multiple

47:46

Thanksgiving days, too. You know where I'm with this side of the family and then we have another day for this. Same with Christmas.

47:51

And I don't remember that from when I was younger, but it doesn't mean other people weren't doing it.

47:58

So someone's making fun of me that Ulster sounds Northern Irish. OK. All right. Make fun of me, whatever. So what are you doing?

48:06

Well, that'll be my last question. What are you doing for this Thanksgiving? And are there any special McGowan Thanksgiving traditions?

48:14

Yes. So we're actually staying, staying in Tallahassee and my my in -laws live, live in town.

48:22

So they'll be coming over and just have a good, good meal. I mean, there's nothing really not many traditions, at least that my my family has has started.

48:35

But we will have my mother -in -law make Spanish rice. So that's probably it's probably the one, you know,

48:42

Spanish, Spanish, right? Just different spices. Yeah. I mean, it's like yellow rice. You know, you put some Spanish olives and things like that in there as well.

48:50

It's good. It's really good. So I would take that over stuffing. Yeah, it's good, man. It really is. So we'll have a turkey and and all the normal stuff.

48:58

But we'll also we'll also have that as well. So that's it. You know, we'll spend time. Thank thank the Lord for his blessings on us this year and enjoy a meal together and fellowship.

49:10

Yeah, we have a little like apple thing that we would pass around and everyone says what they're thankful for.

49:16

And so we may try to do that this year, but I'm going to be smoking a turkey for the first time.

49:23

I've never done it. So this could go very bad or very good. I don't know which I've had the philosophy in last year.

49:31

I don't even think we had a turkey because my philosophy has been I want to eat stuff I'm really thankful for.

49:36

And, you know, turkey's OK. Like, but I'm really thankful for brisket, you know? Yeah.

49:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm thankful for some good pulled pork, some ribs. That's my kind of Thanksgiving.

49:48

Yeah. And I had I had some venison, some back straps last year that were phenomenal. You know, like butter in your mouth.

49:55

They just melted. But yeah, I mean, that's our Thanksgiving is going to be smoking some meat.

50:01

And yeah, same having some family over and for my daughter's first Thanksgiving.

50:07

So, I mean, how many kids do you have? It's exciting. Yeah, we have I have three. So my oldest, my oldest is 13.

50:13

So, yeah. So I'm behind you on that one. So I'm this this is like everything's new and which is kind of cool.

50:20

I'm sure you remember that. Oh, yeah. It's good, man. You'll you'll form your own traditions with your family. So that's that's really good.

50:26

Yeah. Yeah. So true meaning of Thanksgiving, though, is about thanking God. And don't forget that for everyone listening out there.

50:33

And, you know, this is what I want to encourage people. If you are the father, especially, and it's your house, it's your holiday to do what you want with.

50:43

You have a lot of direction over this. You don't have to let things just go. And just people just talk.

50:48

You can direct the conversation. And so I would encourage people out there who are hosting a Thanksgiving Day celebration.

50:55

Center it on God at least some point during the day. And it's great to have family. It's great to talk about whatever.

51:00

Even if you want to watch football or play football or whatever, that's great. But don't forget that the whole reason behind this is to enjoy what

51:09

God's given you. And if you're not thanking him, then who are you thanking? There's no one else to thank.

51:15

It's not about thanking yourself. It's not about pride and that kind of thing. It's it's about it's really a humble outlook that says,

51:23

Lord, we don't deserve any of these good things, but you've given them to us. And so take some time to thank

51:29

God, to pray with your family and with those who are in attendance. It's also a great witness. And that's one of the things that I'm intending for those that don't know

51:37

Christ. And we all have them in our families, people we dearly love. This is an opportunity.

51:43

You get this once or twice a year, depending on how much your families get together to center it back on Christ.

51:50

And ultimately what he did for us on the cross, that's the thing we're most thankful for. So, yeah,

51:56

I don't know if you have any final thoughts there, Sean. Summed it up well, brother. That's that's very true. Amen. So, yeah.

52:02

All right. Well, happy Thanksgiving, everyone. And just a reminder, if you want to come to the

52:07

Christianity in the Founding Conference, Pastor Sean McGowan is going to be there presenting on. What are you presenting on?

52:13

So the plan is on Presbyterians and the American War for Independence. All right.

52:19

OK. Yeah. You just told me that. Presbyterians and the American War for Independence. So you're going to want to sign up.

52:24

It's in Pennsylvania. Just go to Christianity in the Founding dot com and you can sign up there.