Reigning with Christ or Pastor's Panel Podcast

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00:00

Hey Jeff, yeah, you still haven't sent me a dot post mill sir, man.

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I want that shirt Tonight I'm joined by happy. I'm joined by Jeffrey joined by John and I'm thankful for these brothers that are joining me for this

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Conversation that we're going to try to continue as often as possible Talking about God's Word and all the glories in it and learn more about him

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So we can just fast in who God we can worship him. We can learn to obey him

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And just see what he's doing all over this earth and and do it together Iron sharpening iron and learning from one another and we hope

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I Hope that this conversation is an encouragement to people who will watch

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I really do and so I'm thankful for you guys. We may have some other folks to join us We've had a difficult time coming up with a name a

00:59

Difficult time coming up with some agreement. I don't know if it showed up. Does it show up on your screens?

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I Don't see anything. Okay, I temporarily put in a name that I have yet to throw out to you guys and My opinion is that Is that if we all have any kind of a say that we all come up with a name that we truly like and that We know is not taken and we cast lots

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Like the pastors panel But you know, that's hey, I didn't see that one

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But the one that I put up tonight that I haven't shared with you guys yet.

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That's temporary for tonight raining raining with Christ podcast Right, what is it raining with Christ podcast?

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Oh Yeah, so yeah, you guys can chew on that so last last time we didn't have you with us happy and I'm thankful that you're with us this time to talk about one of the conversations that we had was with each other talking about The good things that we see

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God doing on our planet right now And we talked locally and we talked

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As far as our country and we can even talk globally, but I know that you

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Travel quite a bit and you see a lot going on and Jeff. I was hoping that maybe you can share

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You came recently from the g3 conference and I know there's a lot of brothers there who were doing a lot of great things and Maybe you could share with some of the things that you're seeing going on at the g3 conference with different ministries and and John you can

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Share anything that you'd like to share as well Anything that you see God moving and working and doing on this planet that you know there's so much negative that we hear and we see and we're just Surrounded by negativity when when we believe that Jesus has won the victory

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God is in control You know, we all believe that our eschatology may differ a little bit but we believe that that God is the

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God of the universe and Jesus rules and reigns and He's not weak he's not weak at all and we

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We fret too much and worry too much. So I'm gonna I'm gonna stop and Happy if you want to start us off.

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Let us know what you're seeing in America as you travel Well, you know

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You know what The pause of the traveling for one second, but I have really really seen is

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Which I think is beautiful is the advance in medication and the the medical field all across The you know in my state across the

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United States. I see that there's such a Love for the the mentally handicapped the hearing impaired

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There's been new developments for the hearing where someone that's never heard before like we well we take for granted now can hear you know, and You know that that's you know,

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God gave us brains he blessed us with doctors He blessed us with medicine and I think we kind of overlooked these things

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But to see these people that were once deaf now can hear or there's actually new developments in taking

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The optical you know the eyeball from a dead person and giving it to a living person and it works with some people and I Find that fascinating.

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I see that just really Opening up so many doors for the gospel and It's just it's beautiful Especially if you've ever been which

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I have a passion for and that's adults with disabilities special needs, you know but yeah, that's why

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I see a Advancement in the medical field that it's just so beautiful and it's helping our world so much, you know

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It's crazy that we overlooked that but yeah, if that person was in our church, what would we do?

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We would be on our knees we'd be praying for that person every day and then They they become well, whether it be through implant medication, whatever it is.

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They become well, then what do we do? We're praising the Lord. We're giving his glory.

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So You know, also, yeah, I'm sorry and also You know because a lot of times churches frown at the mentally ill they either think they're a

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Nebuchadnezzar They got a demon or whatever and when you see them get back when you see them get regulated on Because I know a lot of people that have bipolar

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They have a salt deficiency in their brain You know that the gray mass of their brain shrinks and what this does is it help it helps it regrow?

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it's it's a natural salt called lithium and To see the church when they come into the church and they're all really nervous and stuff

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The body of Christ just Just wraps them up, you know and gives them what what they've longed for for so long, you know, and that's just the

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Just to be noticed as an image bearer of God, you know And but yeah what

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I've noticed all over the country. I've been traveling for the last two years All over the country.

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I've seen such a networking of the body of Christ Like I've never seen before You know,

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I've seen that that And what you know what what

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I've seen is Hospitality You know,

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I think that's what we've lacked in the last 20 -30 years to be honest, you know, but I see a hospitality

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I see a hunger to grow in the knowledge of God and really people setting aside doctrinal

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Doctrinal differences To help advance the kingdom of God It's not about our kingdom.

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It's building our kingdom it's advancing the kingdom of God through the gospel and making disciples and how everybody is just Networking with each other and helping one another.

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It's it's beautiful. Yeah, I Think what you're mentioning is just another aspect

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What one of the parts of the conversation that we had earlier was What do we see?

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What do we see God doing next if we? If maybe there's some hints out there.

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What what are we seeing him do next and my opinion on that was

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I see us getting away from the big machine called You know our conventions our

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Lutheran sentence our you know, whatever the Presbyterians or Methodists call their you know groups and and we were getting away from the the corporate church and we're

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Doing what you're talking about doing? Well, I see Yeah, I see more people.

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I mean believe it or not It's just like being my so I just I'm up in Idaho right now.

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I'm up and pay it, Idaho my nephews is getting married and This is the second time

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I've been with my family since I was 17 years old And me and my brother

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Seth are both pastors and we're a little worried about our dad and our our uncle up here and so you know because they were going to a

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Nazarene Church and It was it wasn't you know, I you know that it wasn't a healthy place

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Not a care what what his name was is so my brother was on his way up from California He asked me to find a

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Reformed Church so I found one about 40 minutes from here and It was awesome.

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I walked in I I mean it was nothing but plaid shirts and beards

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I felt right at home, you know You know, I was like hallelujah But the pastor came in and sat down and with us afterwards and he was a pastor of Calvary Chapel that's really big in California and And now he's reformed, but I see a lot of people going confessional

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You know, I really really do all over the country I've seen churches of God become reformed churches

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Church of Christ come become reformed or Yeah, but it's really neat, you know well, and especially in our circles

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I Baptists and Presbyterians coming together like I would have never imagined.

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That's crazy. I mean we covered I'm a Baptist and I go to a Presbyterian Church my brother's church, you know

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Yeah, but I love I love seeing how bitches Bridges are being built especially in the reform role between the

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Presbyterians and the reformed Baptist Yeah, I think that is just it especially in California, Southern, California.

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It's popping down here, you know I'll shut up Jeff if you have anything to share from like the g3 conferences and all the ministries that you interacted with Yeah, so most of them most of the ministries that I interact with were for fellow vendors

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Cuz uh, like I had a booth out there and so a lot of vendors that I interacted with Really grew a friendship.

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I mean like like we knew each other from an online presence, you know with me having no, a pretty good following because I'm the

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Bibles that I do but Being able to see them in person have a conversation talk theology talk

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About future plans talk about coming together and doing something together Like there's there's one a group

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Facebook group or Something but he does a lot of wood burning selling stuff.

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It's reform sage. Oh, yeah Yeah, and so I hung out with him for a little bit spoke with him and his wife and we've been texting back and forth

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I mean, he's just a really good guy you know and I feel like there is a future opportunity for whether it be a ministry or whether it be

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And some kind of business proposition for us both to to make some money

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But Other than that man, I was just able to meet pastors, you know

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Men like me who work a job and pastor a church You know our church planters people

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Better in their first year or second year of planting a church mostly a lot of us because of kovat

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You know churches shut down wasn't a place to meet and so the people who were not afraid of me

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You know We're sent out by other churches to plant churches

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And you know and just being able to have a conversation with them the the struggles of pastoring the joy of pastoring

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And you know, well, what do you do in this situation? well, this is what I do, you know are are being able to have a theological conversation or even a debate without Arguing like you can't do that on Facebook But as far as the g3

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It's a wonderful conference a lot of people they get You know, they look into one of these guys that preach like the g3 at the g3

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They just pick a name and the next thing, you know Like if you google him or YouTube him and watch one of his sermons then a whole list of other

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Great ministers preachers will show up on your on your newsfeed and you're able to go down the rabbit trail

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Yeah in here wonderful expository preaching and I know right now a

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Josh Bice the pastor of The the church that started g3 there

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They're planning to leave the SPC Because of this, you know the scandal and stuff that's taking place there.

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Yeah, so they're starting what's called the g3 network For church planners or stuff like that small churches where you can get plugged into the g3 network and you know,

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I Think it costs like I'm thinking five hundred dollars a year but they supply you with your

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Sunday school material and it's biblical and and there's There's leadership

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Courses that you can take there's you know, I mean, there's just a ton of opportunity that's going on There's a way, you know, like if you don't you know, like if your money's going toward Something Some kind of a missionary society that you know nothing about well, if you get a

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If you get hooked up with the g3 network The missionary society is the missionary from Paul Washer and heart cry and you know that they're not pocketing any money

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It's actually going to the mission bill. They sell books for like a dollar Because they're not trying to profit money and that dollar goes to the mission bill

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That's like, you know, these people are just doing great things and I'm I'm grateful to to know them and you know

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If I needed to reach out to them I could just you know, just a great bunch of guys and so I Think the thing that I'm happy most about What I'm seeing and I know

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I probably didn't display this last time And I wasn't trying to be a Debbie Downer, but I you know, it's just the the opportunity that's taking place right now for church planting

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You know churches plant churches Yeah, if you're if you're a church is rooted and it has been for 20 years

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And there hasn't been a church plant come from it. Like what's going on people? Like how are we to disciple the nation's?

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Well, it's by raising up men who are able to teach the Bible. I was telling people not long ago

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And my church that my job is to raise ups to raise up men to take my place

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Whether it be because it was every four years So when I established this church plan,

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I have it to where they have to Every four years they reconsider me They reconsider if they want me to be their pastor or not

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All right Well, I have to raise someone up for three and a half years from now just case they decide they don't want to reconsider me

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But they want someone else. I need to make sure that this church has someone I can stand in my place Also, I could die next year

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Well, this church needs to be able to still be going and so it's my job to raise up men who are able to To preach the

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Bible Well, well, let's say I don't die hopefully and let's say that they do keep me as their pastor

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Well, it's my job to continue to raise these men up and as the church grows to send these men out to plant churches

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Not to keep them Just in amount the plant churches and to raise up more men.

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Like this is what we're supposed to do. Yeah Yeah, it's about the the kingdom of God.

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It's not about The Covenant Reformed Baptist Church as One single group of people.

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It's about reaching our community for Christ and and hopefully reach in the world

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So that's why I see You know, I've all the negativity and stuff that's going on in the world right now

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I See, you know And how bad this pandemic or pandemic,

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I'm sorry is There's some brave men who are willing to stand up against tyranny and plant churches yeah, and And I'm and I'm and I'm glad that I stand shoulder to shoulder with these men

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I think that's beautiful and I hope that that can catch on More and more and more churches that that philosophy of ministry, which

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I think is so biblical and you were talking about networking I've been seeing that that happening for a while now

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Maybe you guys are familiar that you know, Paul Washer used to go to Grace Life Church of the

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Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama Jeff novel is the pastor there I love to listen to Jeff novel preach and he has a true church conference at his church every year

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I like the shepherds conference and it's really good really pretty big and They're they're doing similar things that not

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Marxist helping churches Become healthy churches.

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They're planning churches. They're doing missions trips and planning churches, you know, just like what you guys are talking about But you know, they have a network, you know

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You can go online and say the these are churches that align with us and then you have founders

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You can go on founders website and you know find churches that align And kind of have similar beliefs.

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So that networking thing is really catching on I think And I think the the networking that we're doing at conferences and online

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Really helps keeps us keeps us accountable With each other in our theology and and like I said last time

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You know if we have a difference we've got to be humble enough to say I Could have a wrong doctrine.

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I could have a wrong theology and and we can still love each other and have a discussion but the truth the truth is not always going to rise to the top and Falsehood is going to sink to the bottom even if I'm the one holding it.

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I got it. Go ahead you know, you know, it's what I think what it comes down to is is

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You know again, like you were saying like humility, you know when we instead of letting pride and ego get in the way of especially when it comes to a

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Debate a real healthy debate shouldn't even be online. It shouldn't be online online and at all

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It's it's more for edification because if somebody's getting led off into error and they're not

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You know what I've always noticed is is we can have our differences But what we coin a knee and what we fellowship in is like oblivions to we fellowship in the with the gospel of Jesus Christ That's what really brings us together is the gospel and it doesn't matter if I'm right or you're right

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It's it's what does the scripture say? Yeah, I know. It's not my truth or your truth

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It's the truth, right, you know, and so we can have differences on eschatology epistemology, whatever, you know, but you know, it's just Humility humbling ourselves and you know, sometimes you know

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You can't be the one that's that's down washing the feet, you know I think the true humility comes but especially ministry is when you're the one sitting in the seat.

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Yeah get what I'm saying Yeah, absolutely John were your thoughts leading you

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I'm like y 'all as far as the network and small especially smaller churches In the last couple years.

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I've had a opportunity to work with churches That Could be extremely small to moderate and I don't know what

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I suppose that's probably the terms They're small and moderate. I don't know how large the churches are in California we're

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Tennessee, but in North Carolina, there's a church on every corner and Normal attendance can run from ten to a hundred and ten and be and be considered healthy for that church based off of Hey, I Saw more of a hearkening back to Corporate worship

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Done maybe even enter the nomination like you stopped about some bad business with some Presbyterian I've been able to see some of those things happen

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And in North Carolina, that could be a pretty big thing. Can it Robert? Oh, yeah If This this is kind of neglected group on the screen, but I'm looking at even now is there's

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I am Rather happy. I'm a I am a church pastor ministry, so in the past I don't think

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I would have been able to see it and talk with people the way that we're talking now without there being maybe

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Maybe a little more friction. It was unhealthy. I think there's a healthy amount of friction. I think there's an unhealthy amount of friction

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One of the things that I've noticed especially inside of my own denomination Pastors preachers, especially the ones that are coming up with me and after me and some recently for me it's been really more of a

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Let's get foundational essential Put that out on the table so that we know who our brothers are and who our brothers aren't and then if we have differences past that and Whatever they'd be what they are brother

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Robert and I had about an hour and a half maybe two hour conversation one time about the difference between what a

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Baptist minister a Baptist member And a

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Pentecostal member would have and I read my My church's Declaration of Faith and I don't recall was it point number seven or point number six that were almost word -for -word

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What you said George was a true church. I Don't remember exactly but I know there was some similarity

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Yeah, it was it was it was really close and then after that there was some differences But those differences were all assuming you are already a

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Christian those differences were in practical application and how one might view sanctification and how one's convictions sanctification may be different than others, you know, there's some

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There's some variance opinion on that and really I Could stand to be wrong on a great deal of things

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So that's why you see me listening more than talking whenever I've come to these things. I enjoy learning

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You've had me you might see me look up a lot I'm at work so if I have to jet out

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I apologize in advance, but uh, I I've read more on Preterism here on this computer

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For starters, I really didn't know that there was as many as many folks

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That I knew their names like Sproul. I mean, I've listened to R .C. Sproul a lot read some of his works

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I would have never known he was a Preterist Which gets kind of back to the point of what I'm saying is there's so many things

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That aren't foundational issues that didn't stop brother

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Sproul from working with Paul Washer or John MacArthur who

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I know John MacArthur has a very difference of opinion or Votey Bachman who's for all intents and purposes and all

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Millennials these guys that stood on the same stage and heralded the same truth and And have done so well and have

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Led many people to the Lord because their main objective was who

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Jesus is who we are And the gospel and just leaving it and leaving the other chips where they are

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So I have seen in our in my small very small group more of a resurgence of necessities and this resurgence of How can

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I help my brother out? What can I do to help my brother? through this walk and more of an resurgence of the importance of the local church regardless of its size

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During the pandemic the plandemic whatever you called it earlier. There's a There's been a massive amount of churches that couldn't meet didn't want to meet

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Had a difference of opinion on what Romans 13 may or may not have meant in terms of whether or not you listen and adhere to the governor's restrictions and People turn to their small neighborhood church

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Where they drove past them many times to go to a much larger church that may have had more in the way of programs may have had less in the way of theological debt and I Think it's a healthy thing.

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I think there are in a lot of ways what the enemy meant for evil God God made a good thing out of it.

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Yeah, man. Yeah I'm gonna put this back on mute. So y 'all hear all the

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PowerPoint record. Well, if it's okay with you guys We're about 30 minutes in I think it'd be good a good time to jump in back into the

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Matthew 24 conversation You guys cool with that?

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You know, you're fine with yeah And John you just jump right in there whenever you want to You have something to add you have a question or whatever you whatever you want to do it's perfectly okay

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I Know we we basically looked at Verses one through three, you know, we talked about the questions that disciples had and we looked at Jesus an answer to that I don't have a problem kind of going

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Verse by verse. I think it would be very edifying for folks to hear our conversation.

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Can I ask a quick question? Yes, sir. So John, I don't know you that. Well, I love your heart man

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Just wondering what what are your views on eschatology? Are you a dispensational or historic?

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Premillennial pre -millennial list. I would I would align more historical pre -millennialist.

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Okay. Yeah, so this is just Looking at from you know going over Matthew 24.

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Is it kind of conflicting with you or you kind of seen? No Granted Did you watch the last conversation that we had?

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Yeah, so there's some of the things that I can see where the

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What was it called partial preterist you answer some of the questions and I could see how you would want to use

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Use those that that rule in multiple place because it does seem to answer questions nicely and my hesitation to do so is

29:47

It's bad Once I got a new hammer, everything looks like a nail And if you're swinging a hammer on things that aren't nails you can be destructive with other parts

29:57

So I want to I want to make sure that I weigh it all out and there I see parts Where the destruction of the temple in 70

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AD can be completely explained by Matthew in Matthew 24 and what

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Jesus was talking about and I can see where Simultaneously, he could be talking about his second coming at a different time and they not contradict one

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That make any sense. Oh, no. No totally, you know, and you know yeah,

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I remember when this was all new to me too and But it's it's I believe it's really healthy to know all our different views and You know what

30:36

Jeff? I know you're gonna kick butt on this real fast. Give me five minutes I gotta go take my meds and I'll be right back.

30:42

Okay, I'm gonna leave this on. Okay All right. All right gangsters. I'll be right back

30:51

You know to say something before we get started something that John was talking about I'd like to elaborate on it from earlier

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You know We're coming together we have these different views We're not coming together

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You know saying well, you know, hey, he's just lost.

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He hosted the doctrines of the devil You know, we're recognizing that you know that yeah, we have different theological and that's kind of logical views on some things

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But the most important thing as the body in Christ we come to we come to these talks and we do it as as brothers

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You know Because I you know, there's definitely some things that I know that I could be wrong about I've had

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I'm not against having a paradigm shift You know,

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I Want to be I want to I want to interpret my

32:00

Bible Correctly, I want to when I'm in the pulpit preaching. I Want to have confidence in what

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I'm saying Sure And I feel like I do but I'm not saying that I am

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I'm 100 % correct on everything when I get in that pulpit what it what it is that I believe

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I have to feel like that I am From the best of my ability. I am interpreting this passage of Scripture Correctly But I'm not opposed to having a paradigm shift and standing in front of my people and apologizing if it's for truth sure, you see and Well, I think a lot of people don't take that that point of view

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I think that so Full disclosure.

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So years ago I would have ascribed to what 99 .9 %

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Southeastern people in the United States of America adhere to which is pre -millennial dispensation and Really basing that on zero independent research basing that and you know,

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I would have believed those things and didn't believe those things about even being Christian and in doing so part of the reason it

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Changed after after coming to Christ the reason that I adhere to a strict gospel message the way that I do is because For one

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I was given a false sense of security through the dispensation of pre -millennial dispute and in many ways was made a twofold son of hell and And that's a hard.

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That's a hard thing to say given that my dad preached to me at some points in life right,

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I also knew the pastors who were over me and There's no way in the world.

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I think those men led me astray on purpose Right. I mean, I believe that they love me and my family and more of what's best for me

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They intertwined their gospel message so much so into their eschatology view that they really robbed their gospel message of any power

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Because their gospel message was more or less hindered on If you need this things to happen before the

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Lord returns and in the back of my mind as a you know

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Red -blooded American I'm thinking just being honest here with you fellas. I'm thinking well then that means

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I've got so much time I can live however My buddies are living I can do the things of the world until I start to see some of these things

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Pan out then I can I can come to the Lord and make all these things right, you know And there's

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I'm afraid there's a lot of folks who follow in that exact same Group, and they've been led in that direction because they've been given a false

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A false sense of security the fact of the matter is even if even if every pre millennial dispensation is just right

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That's out there. You're not promised tomorrow Right. So keeping your gospel message completely centered on Jesus being the

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Savior of the world and your need of him Apart from wherever you fall in the timeline of history keeping that message center keeps people continually

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Pointed to the cross where there's far less danger of making a two -fold sign of hail or given somebody a false security and That's one of the reasons why personally

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I've never preached on On eschatology to the degree that we talked about it.

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Not that I haven't studied it because In my mind and in my heart the most important and the most prevalent message needs to continually be the gospel

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We need to continually be digging into the gospel in a way that highlights man's sin and highlights man's answer for sin, which is in Christ Jesus and and If we're faithful in that charge

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If people die tomorrow And go into glory, then it doesn't really matter what's happened 2 ,000 years ago in terms of Israel's destruction or what happens 2 ,000 years from now

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It's because we've dealt with the issue that is pivotal and it's up front for for everybody and So that's that's been my my biggest conviction as a man has been

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To do my to do my best to not tangle My personal beliefs about eschatology too much into my gospel presentation not that I don't think that there is a gospel message in it, but because I honestly had a fear of leading people astray

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You know I want to make sure that and if I were to do that that I were to do that Biblically as you were saying for the

37:00

Jeff that I was to do that in a way that that was Going to be repeatable 15 years from now that would been repeatable 50 years ago

37:10

That would be timeless for whoever I was talking to and I mean because of that I have

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I have left my preaching largely exposition which inside the Church of God is kind of Less common than other denominations, but it has also been more black and white gospel driven as opposed to stepping out and Teaching on things like eschatology.

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Although I have been asked to do so I haven't ever done so from behind the court So let me get this straight.

37:41

You guys don't believe in soul sleep How much medicine did you take

37:53

It Seems like it sounds like a similar situation with the hyper grace movement You can live however you want to Based on that style of preaching

38:07

And just an additional what you said Jeff When we come together like this and we have a difference in theology whereas in the past, you know

38:15

John you touched on how there was There was a lot of friction you know, it was still there when we were younger in the

38:26

Generations, you know in our past or our grandparents our great -grandparents

38:32

You know, and I saw that it was friction in between denominations and kind of bled off into me and in it

38:38

I saw that happen in my conversations with kids that I went to high school with that went to a different denomination and you know, there would just be that friction and then

38:49

I Don't know if there was a feeling of felt like I was better than the other one or they were you know

38:56

Because they believe that way they I just need to write them off. They're wrong have argument with them or whatever you know what, you know,

39:05

I like to study church history and You know when when it came to the great restoration movement back in the 1830s

39:12

When everybody was trying to get back to scripture so to speak he had all these Cults starting like a whole bunch of them a whole bunch of them

39:24

Mormonism Christian science he had all these the stuff and then you had the great revivalist and that there was real moves of God, but You had all these other tent revivals going on and it was like come to our tent revival

39:45

We have the real Christ. No, no, no come to our tent revival we have the the Holy Ghost is really moving over here and you know, it seems like when you look at church history like Every 40 years we go through something like that, you know, and but it always comes down to Humility, you know, it really really comes it comes down to that because God's not stupid.

40:12

He's a son. We have a sovereign God and he understands all of this, you know I don't care if you're a

40:18

KJV or ESB or or you read the Greek and Hebrew, you know Like God's gonna work all these things out, you know, but I just believe it's gonna be over a long period of time

40:33

Well, and I wanted to finish piggybacking on what you said, you know when we come together with differences like this we don't

40:40

We're not condemning one another and say you you know, because you believe this you're lost Another thing that we don't do which

40:46

I'm so thankful for is We we don't come at it passively and say but yet it's not important We just want to love each other.

40:58

Well, that's why it should be called the pastors panel. I mean Good point

41:06

And you know that was to be honest that was something I was really really struggling with At the tail end of last year and it wasn't until and I've told

41:18

Jeff this before it wasn't until I was doing an interview With Jeff at his house for for my podcast

41:26

R &B studios, but When he when he said that he goes, you know

41:32

You're you're not gonna we're not gonna find unity until we all start loving each other

41:38

You know and cuz we're gonna have and that's that cut me right here it's so cut me right here because I know that's what

41:46

I lacked in and But God's been showing me, you know, a lot of humility since actually

41:52

January That because I had you know, I had some

41:57

I Have some problems with some some of our Christian brothers and sisters, you know, especially the charismatic movement it's it's it's really really hard for me, but You know if I just shut up and listen

42:12

You know instead of always being the one that that's talking and stuff You know,

42:17

I could learn something and how to love them more. Yeah, I think that's the main thing

42:24

We have to see each other as equals as brothers You know,

42:30

I like what you said earlier happy, you know, you know going to the analogy of washing feet, you know

42:38

Not that we're literally washing people, but but we need to be you know You know

42:43

John, you know, he's from my I come from a charismatic movement you know the Churches of God and stuff like that and John's still there and I need eyes a reformed man need to be you know ready to serve brother

42:56

John You know and John has to be ready to serve me. I mean, that's how it should be.

43:03

Listen We're not going to go anywhere. We're not going to be able to reach any atheists We're not going to be able to reach the loss if Christians keep this bickering up It's it's stupid.

43:15

Stop it Okay. Okay. We don't agree. Okay What's new now love each other

43:23

John didn't give it John didn't give an alternative. He says if you hate your brother, you are walking in darkness and Darkness has no fellowship with the light

43:37

If I was to hate John because we come from a different denomination Listen, John's not walking in darkness, even though you know, like what well this

43:47

I'll put it on me Let's say that I have bad theology, which I don't think

43:53

I do but let's say I do But John but but but if John hate hated me because I was a reformed

44:00

Baptist John would be walking in darkness. No matter how bad my theology was

44:07

Yeah, and it's the same for me, you know, we have to stop it And as a matter of fact that there can be no paradigm shift

44:16

There can be no have you thought about this? There can be no. Hey, can I challenge you with this?

44:22

Back and forth with each other if all we're doing is saying where you go to the darkness of the devil.

44:27

Well, you did It's just stupid And so I brought you know,

44:34

I hope that this thing right here can can flourish And that more pastors can see this and get on board and start loving their brother

44:46

Above all let love but love rain above all right. That's right Love one another if I was in my outside Looking in and I saw a dysfunctional family.

44:58

I wouldn't want to come in and stay If somebody invited me over to their house to have a cup of coffee the whole time their family was was fussing about and Throwing fits.

45:10

I'd I'd say no, that's all right. I make my own coffee. Just drank it at the house

45:17

Okay, all that madness over there, you know the scripture clearly says, you know, look at this

45:24

We know who our brothers and sisters are. I mean look at this. We know them borrowed their fruits but the world knows us for how we love one another and The world looks at us now and and they don't see that at all.

45:39

I'm telling you that right now Because Jesus didn't say you would know them by their burkas you would know them by their yarmulkes

45:47

You know by their beards, you know He said you know them by their love for one another yeah the love for one another and you know and you know, it's

46:03

You know, it's just like being in any family member. You got that uncle or that aunt? But you know, it's like uncle happy's coming over today

46:15

I'm up here at a family reunion right now. I got a nephew getting married and It's just it's just awesome

46:23

I'm having such a good time but yeah All right, Matthew 24 We just talked about I think we're ready to start in verse 4

46:38

And Jesus answered and said to them see to it that no one misleads you For many will come in my name saying

46:45

I'm the Christ and will mislead many and you will be hearing. Okay, we'll stop right there so Growing up hearing the dispensational message

46:57

This is one of the things that I'm to be looking for people coming in the name of Christ as a sign

47:05

But as a partial preterist I must see this as being fulfilled

47:20

Those mutually exclusive points, is it possible for both of those

47:26

To be valid points for partial preterist and for a futuristic Well, for instance, how many how many fellows was claiming to be

47:34

Jesus? 370 AD I assume there was already some then But I don't know the historical facts for where I would find them to say that they are

47:44

But there's a cat in Australia last year that was deceiving many people saying he was

47:50

Jesus of Nazareth There's been more than just him in the last, you know, a couple hundred years now that's an extra biblical

48:01

You know document But that's one thing I would ask is how how prevalent was that in 370

48:09

AD Right now

48:18

I can't seem to think of a document that I could point you to Sadly I do believe eventually the

48:30

The Simon the magician ended up claiming to be some kind of Christ I'm not mistaken.

48:38

There's Extra biblical writings that show that but also

48:45

I see this has been fulfilled in another way and it's a false teaching about who

48:52

Christ is There was a man by the name of Serentis First John speaks about his lawlessness whenever he says that uh

49:08

If he that there was someone home, let me turn to it Second John verse 7 or 8

49:25

Says for many deceivers have gone into the world those who do not confess The coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh such one is a deceiver and an antichrist.

49:36

Give me one second. What's up? Okay, hold on one second my daughter needs some headache medicine

49:46

So, where are we in? Matthew 24 verse first four and five

49:54

Word of five focusing too much on that my pad just take it away from your head

50:00

We'll get another modern example that I can think of John There was a guy named

50:05

Jesus And he was claiming to be Jesus and the Jesus the

50:11

Messiah and that was here not too long ago He may still be around I'm not sure

50:24

Yes, so Jesus I mean so right here in first John He says that many deceivers have gone into the world those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh such a one is a deceiver and an antichrist and At this time there was a man by the name of Serenthes who taught that that the

50:46

Christ came down upon Jesus at his baptism that Jesus had a unearthly father

50:55

Joseph and Then but Jesus did do miracles that the Christ accompanied the miracles but at the death of Jesus the

51:05

Christ left the man and Then Jesus died was buried and never came from the grave

51:13

So this is false teaching that he was speaking of about who the real Jesus was

51:19

And it's not this Jesus that we worship. It's not the Jesus that the Bible talks about yeah, and so this this passage could be equally true when they're talking about a false

51:31

Jesus a teaching about Jesus and Now this fall into the realm of Gnosticism Yes, so this right here would have been early

51:40

Gnosticism Gnosticism is Antichrist now First John chapter 2 where it talks about Antichrist is speaking of the

51:49

Jews who denied that Jesus Christ who denied that Jesus was the Christ But in second

51:55

John it talked about denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh And so he says and and at that time there was a man you can google him his name was

52:06

Sorrentis and He taught So this would have been early Gnosticism the very beginning of it

52:13

And so this was he who was speaking about a false Jesus. He was preaching a false Jesus He didn't claim to be

52:20

Jesus, but the Jesus that he was preaching Wasn't real it wasn't true. He wasn't a true

52:25

Christ And so that prophecy that Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 24 could also been speaking about something like that That makes sense

52:39

Yeah, so You know again reading this in context and everything and we tend to over just read right past these things

52:48

We want to look for some I believe some future event when

52:54

When we start off in three, do you mind if I read it real fast? Sure, as he as he

53:01

Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives The disciples his disciples came to him privately saying tell us that's them when will these things be and What will be the sign of your coming and Of the end of the age and Jesus answered them.

53:23

Well, this is the key right here See that no one leaves you astray second -person plural you you you

53:32

Not me What leads them astray? You know, and then he goes on he's again.

53:41

He's not jumping around, you know, whenever Jesus Um Jesus is talking quite plainly right here, you know, it's this isn't a parable, you know

53:52

So they said hey when will be the sign and he's saying, you know He just got done with Jerusalem Jerusalem and the temple and everything.

53:59

And hey, what will this be a sign? Well, hey You know, this is it, you know that see that no one leaves you astray

54:12

For many will will come in my name saying I am the Christ and they will lead many astray and you

54:20

You there we go again you Will hear of wars and rumors of wars.

54:28

I Stop right there for a second. I want to point out something now the question was made

54:35

And if I'm not mistaken Robert I think that you asked the question

54:43

Does this centralize that this teaching had to happen then and and and it's not for us today or is that you

54:49

John I'm Amada Quoted to you wrong But it was

54:56

I said there was there was like you could read something and see both were part of the pre -read the partial pictures you and then the futures you can read yeah simultaneously

55:10

Yeah Yeah, but what I would say to that like when it comes to this verse because there is people that claim to be

55:19

Christ today But there's also wars and rumors of wars today. There's also earthquakes in various places

55:26

There's also a nation rising up against nations There's also brothers hating brothers now

55:33

Believe this text is specifically speaking in the context of the second -person plural and the generation

55:43

Ghana the near demonstrative but also we see all these things such as You know nations rising us nation earthquakes famines like all these things have continued to happen

55:55

Yeah, that doesn't mean that that's specifically the The the same earthquake that he was speaking of so So Jesus had a specific famine as we read in Acts chapter 11

56:09

That's a specific earthquake as we read at the crucifixion of Christ a specific

56:15

But like specific things, but that doesn't mean all earthquakes ended then And so it carried on and so I believe he's speaking specifically of false

56:25

Christ Whether I can prove it or not in Scripture at That time but still today

56:34

There's false Christ. There's people that claim to be Christ But that doesn't mean that the people that are claiming to be

56:40

Christ is exactly what Jesus is speaking about here So that I'm clear on these

56:50

So and I just read it and I'm gonna be reading it in ASB 95

56:55

Version No one misleads you. Many will come in my name saying

57:01

I'm the Christ. Don't mislead me You're here for wars and rumors of wars now,

57:07

I Don't know whether the original Would have been plural wars and rumors of wars or whether they've been singular is to indicate one in particular

57:18

Earthquakes is also plural in this version But in verse 8 it says all these things as if to sum up the whole everything said from verse 4 to verse 7

57:33

Encapsulated by saying all these things are merely the beginning of earthquakes But so that I understand quickly there you're saying there's a singular,

57:45

I know I'm not looking at the screen as far as I can see Singular earthquake being been cited here

57:52

Well, I can go through Matthew and my wife and I can show you and I can show you two earthquakes that the

58:00

Bible speaks about I go to the book of Acts and show you some famines but and so Maybe I shouldn't said a specific one, but but what it but but it's specifically what he is

58:17

Speaking about Like like like right here where it says wars and rumors of wars.

58:22

Well right now there's wars and rumors of wars, but that's not surprising But this would have been really

58:28

Yeah, but this would have been really surprising during the Pax Romanus the Roman peace

58:34

Rome had taken ten nations It was called a

58:39

Roman peace and this war that was springing up was the That he's speaking about was the the war that we see as take that's going to take place in Daniel chapter 9

58:50

And it would have been the the Jewish revolt the Jews rebelled against Rome All right

58:58

You know to tell someone now wars and rumors of wars. I've heard that my whole life but to tell someone at this time 2730

59:08

AD ish Well, it would have been like yeah, no one's going to go against Rome They were expecting a

59:16

Messiah figure to come to overthrow Rome, but then themselves Would have been different To add to that I was reading and I was going to bring this up.

59:26

I've already took it off the computer screen What was that? Jesus says it does say there's peace and peace but not

59:37

You know, they'll be people they'll be talking about how this there's peace But there is peace and safety peace and safety

59:44

Yeah, so is that what you're whenever you hear that that what you're talking about that peace that Rome said

59:50

Yeah existed because of their overall control yeah,

59:55

I mean like it's just type in your computer type in the Pax Romanis or Roman peace and It'll go to that time where Rome had taken over the known world

01:00:08

And they were all and they all were submitted to Rome and Rome did not come in and remove them from their land

01:00:16

But they took over their land and let them live their lives in peace as long as they paid homage to Caesar I spelled it wrong, but thankfully

01:00:29

Google fixed it You know, there's nothing been like that since Nothing nothing before and nothing since there's only one time and that was during the

01:00:43

Pax Romanis But that this right here would have made sense It doesn't make sense to us today

01:00:50

Guys, I need to go. I need to go pick up my wife All right, happy man. Love you, brother

01:00:59

God bless you, you know what? 14 is one of my favorite passages right there, but I gotta go

01:01:09

We'll see you brother God bless One thing that I found fascinating that I can't

01:01:17

I read over this whole time like just breezed over it and didn't

01:01:22

Tie it together and what you were saying earlier Jeff Makes that make more sense if you look in verse 5

01:01:31

When I read that the first time just a few minutes ago, and I said, you know Growing up dispensationalist.

01:01:37

I'm looking for someone to come Claiming that he is the Christ that he's the

01:01:43

Messiah and you would think If he's coming proclaiming himself

01:01:48

Messiah, then he's the Messiah, you know comes in his own name. He's promoting himself

01:01:55

But that's not what Jesus says Jesus says for many will come in my name and Also say

01:02:05

I am the Christ Oh, that's that's just weird and I breezed over that this whole time

01:02:12

They're gonna come in my name, but also at the same time say I am the

01:02:18

Christ And it looks we're gonna come professing to be Christians and preaching a false gospel of Jesus Christ and preaching a different Christ Yeah, like like what like I don't have to convince someone that that's tap.

01:02:32

That's our that's been happening since the beginning But I I'm pretty like like I have proof.

01:02:40

I just don't have it with me that there were people at that time You know claiming to be Christ.

01:02:46

I mean, it's always been a thing, right? I mean, yeah, it's always been So An axe named who called himself bar

01:02:58

Jesus or say his son Jesus. Thank you tonight 13 and I'm wondering if that would be an example of one of these guys

01:03:08

Jesus was I Think bar Jesus was called justice

01:03:14

But I know Simon the magician as history has it eventually

01:03:22

Started proclaiming himself to be some kind of Messiah figure Now I I'm not a hundred percent, but I'm I'm about 98 %

01:03:36

But I would add that all these things that we see from verses 1 through 14 And which

01:03:42

I'm not, you know, if y 'all want to go back over some of these verses 1 to 14, like it's pretty It's specific, but it can be taken broadly.

01:03:53

I Would think the main sign Would be the abomination of desolation and in verse 15, but I'm not wanting to go there yet I'm just saying like all these other ones.

01:04:05

So let's just look at it real quick. Yeah So I think we stopped at verse a

01:04:11

Says then verse 9 then there will be then they will deliver you unless someone else wants to read it

01:04:18

Okay, I'm sorry Then they will deliver You second -person plural up to tribulation and put you to death and you will be hated by all nation for my name's sake

01:04:30

Again, if you go back to verse 23, it talks about this Chapter 23

01:04:38

Says therefore I will send you prophets and wise men and scribes and some of them you will kill and crucify and some of them

01:04:46

You will flog in the synagogue and persecute from town to town So this is the same.

01:04:52

So when you read So he's telling his disciples that his disciples are going to be the one that's going to be persecuted in synagogues

01:05:01

Yeah, I got you. Yeah, that's interesting. I was saying so this these people that are going to be in Tribulation are going to be the disciples not the

01:05:11

Jewish people in Jerusalem, even though I know the first disciples were Jewish Yeah, hey, hold on one second

01:05:19

Yeah From my understanding. Yeah, that's correct The context is are is the disciples and he's speaking to the cycles and Believers are going to be the ones that are going through the tribulation.

01:05:35

They're they're the ones that are going to be persecuted And and there's it's good that you made that distinction

01:05:45

I think because the Jews play a factor when we get it down to the abomination of desolation

01:05:54

Yeah, I mean I know the way that I typically would read this is that way but I wanted to make sure for clarification for anybody watching live later on.

01:06:04

Right. Well, it's a good distinction to make because we

01:06:11

You know, they call it eisegesis We read ourselves into the text and and that's where a lot of this eschatology comes from dispensational pre -millennial just Eschatology is reading ourselves into the text when

01:06:26

Jesus clearly says Is answering their specific question and when while he's answering it

01:06:34

He's saying you Mislead you and you will be hearing and then they will deliver you to tribulation and will kill you

01:06:43

And you will be hated up by all the nations So He continually is speaking to them

01:06:56

Specifically and clearly answering their question And so then and that this is going to be completely unrelated to eschatology whatsoever, but when you get to verse 10

01:07:10

No, you're fine brother, we have a little side conversation here about I'm fixing to ask a question on verse 10

01:07:15

It's a good thing he came in so if if verse 9 Tracks the way,

01:07:22

I think we all agree that he's talking to the disciples here In verse 10,

01:07:27

I'm gonna assume this is an assumption But at that time many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

01:07:35

Is he talking about The disciples there falling away from the faith

01:07:41

Is he talking about converts that the disciples make after his death and resurrection.

01:07:47

Well notice there's no second -person plural It just says then many will second -person plural be like me.

01:07:54

I mean you Us Okay But but but them would be like a separate group

01:08:05

I got you So he's not speaking when he says many he's not talking about the disciples that are listening to that right now so much as he's

01:08:12

Talking about maybe any future converts Yeah, so people People because like so I don't want to have some kind of a debate on Eternal security, but the way that I see things going without getting into that far a church

01:08:33

It's always has three different types of people group in it. I would say true converts intellectual true believers intellectual believers and Non -believers or false believer and and all three of these can be baptized members of the church

01:08:53

So you can be a baptized member of the church and not be a Christian You see what

01:09:00

I'm saying Yeah Yeah, so because of this persecution and we see it happening in the book of Hebrews So I'm preaching through Hebrews and in Hebrews the

01:09:13

Jewish Christians are being persecuted Because of their following Christ and it's during a time where Persecution persecution from the

01:09:25

Romans come from the Romans about to come so you got persecution from the Jews and persecution from the wrong from the Romans are coming upon the

01:09:33

Christians and and and all they have to do to keep the persecution from the

01:09:40

Jews is to go back to temple and the sacrifice to make a sacrifice for their sins and and so In Hebrews chapter 6 where it talks about them crucifying once again the

01:09:54

Son of God to their own harm That is them going back to the temple and making a sacrifice

01:10:01

After Jesus has already made the the final the once and for all sacrifice and by them doing that they're crucifying once again the

01:10:10

Son of God Well a true believer is somebody that rest that that they're resting in Christ.

01:10:16

They're trusting in Christ they're not going back trying to sacrifice an animal for their sins and so That's the true believer, but someone can intellectually believe be persecuted

01:10:30

Jesus talks about the the parable of the seed and the sower You know some grow up and then on the rocky soil

01:10:39

They receive it in there. But but when times of trouble comes they depart from it

01:10:45

And so that's just what you see taking place here, I believe so the the thought is that verse 10 is dealing with a form of false convert

01:10:57

Yes. Yeah in my opinion. I Was I was just sitting here thinking about two different scenarios

01:11:06

One was going back on something you said You were teaching us last time

01:11:12

Jeff we talked about The the seven churches were written to the to the churches in Asia Minor So, how would that how would

01:11:27

Matthew 24 affect them with the seven in Jerusalem and you read us the verse? I think in Luke that said and those also outside of Jerusalem.

01:11:35

So this was this Tribulation these signs were happening

01:11:42

You know in this area and Yeah, so it was the realm in Providence, yeah, it must have been so severe when

01:11:51

It must have been severe enough for Jesus to say Don't be

01:11:57

Hope pray you're not pregnant or you're you know, have an infant feeding or you run to the hills

01:12:03

Get out and get out of town. So it must have been bad That's one scenario.

01:12:09

The second scenario. I was just looking up at verse 9 So you're verse 10 and it says and at that time many will follow it so I'm asking myself a question fall away from what

01:12:20

What's the scenario? What's the scene? But if you look at verse 9 Then they will deliver you up or deliver you to tribulation

01:12:28

All right. So if you're if you're being delivered up, you're taking somewhere you don't want to go.

01:12:37

I See verse 10 You know being fulfilled in that kind of scenario,

01:12:42

I'm I'm being delivered up into a tribulation And I don't want to go through it anymore.

01:12:49

I'm spilling the beans And that's where Hebrews kicks in the book of Hebrews Because like they're being persecuted by their own people but all they got to do all they have to do is go back to temple and Sacrifice if they sacrifice they're saying that Jesus is not the final sacrifice

01:13:10

That's the whole argument for Christians Especially a Christian Jew. I don't have to sacrifice the lamb

01:13:16

Jesus Christ is my high priest and he made the atonement for me. So when Hebrews is saying don't go back the book of Hebrews is about Jesus being greater than everything and And greater than a high priest greater than the sack, you know, not only was he the high priest he was the sacrifice

01:13:37

John saw him and said behold the Lamb of God it takes away the sins of the world. And so So and so not only was he the high priest, but he but it's his sacrifice

01:13:49

So he's greater than everything and because he's made that once -and -for -all sacrifice

01:13:55

And he's and he's now sitting at the right hand of the father on the throne of David there's no need to make a sacrifice and that's what the

01:14:04

Hebrews is talks about Entering Jesus our Sabbath. You see the book of Hebrews is all about an expositional sermon of Psalm 95 taken from chapter 3 and They didn't enter the church in the wilderness

01:14:21

Excuse me, the Israelite in the wilderness didn't enter that rest Because of unbelief and the only way to enter the

01:14:28

Sabbath The Christian Sabbath is belief. It's faith in Jesus Christ.

01:14:34

It's trusting him Not going back to temple and making sacrifice

01:14:40

And so that's so that's the persecution It's coming upon them from the Jews is The Jews want that them because they're already

01:14:47

Jews to come back to temple come back to this glorious building Yeah, and make a sacrifice but what the

01:14:55

Jews don't understand is is that building is about to fall and And in book of Hebrews, it tells them that the that you know, it tells that the temple is gonna fall like it

01:15:07

It's it's confusing, but it's it's not at the same time if you just follow the structural argument

01:15:14

The so the message of Hebrews is saying don't turn back. Don't go back Jesus is saying here in Matthew 24.

01:15:21

There will be some that will fall away and Looking at Matthew 24 and bringing in Hebrews like that.

01:15:29

It is just Putting these puzzle pieces together and look at seeing the tap tapestry and the beauty of it at a time in the future,

01:15:39

I would like to take this with Hebrews and look at the the idea of Losing salvation versus endurance salvation not today because that's a far a much deeper

01:15:54

I'm definitely down for that. I'm just throwing that softball pitch out there

01:16:03

Especially since you want to look at Hebrews with first in here in that way, which

01:16:08

I have no problem with I just Yeah, so I don't believe

01:16:13

Hebrews teaches that a believer can lose their salvation And that's not what he's teaching here, right?

01:16:21

No, okay. No, I'd say we'll discuss that later because I would like to hear your opinion on it.

01:16:26

Yes, sir And then you get up to verse 11 Mm -hmm. Many false prophets will rise and mislead men

01:16:34

Verse 12, the cost of lawlessness is increased. Most people's love will grow cold But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

01:16:44

Now that he there This is an NASB, is that a singular Possessive plural, what is that?

01:16:52

How would you read that? So my ESV says but the one who endures to the end will be saved now.

01:17:00

You got to ask yourself this Is this saved here speaking salvificly because nowhere in the context is it talking salvific?

01:17:11

Well, I don't know Because of my name to me that implies we're dealing with Christian For me,

01:17:22

I mean so so so I agree that this is speaking about Christians are are well not necessarily

01:17:30

Christians, but But people who are following the Christian faith

01:17:36

All right, but it says but the one who endures to the end to the end of what

01:17:43

To the end of this destruction that's about to take place The destruction of the temple the destruction of the temple is in the context

01:17:50

So whoever endures to the end will be saved. Saved from what? Saved from this destruction

01:17:58

Not to go back to verse 3 I Mean is

01:18:05

Endures to the end end of what verse 3. Well, that's one of their questions Yeah, and the end of the age the end of the age and that's where in the temple falls

01:18:16

Well, let's see the But the the word salvation or saved it doesn't necessarily mean salvific if someone was was playing in the middle of the road and I in a car comes barreling at them and I see them and I take off running and Within seconds knock them out of the way of the car

01:18:38

Well, you can literally say that I was that person's salvation and in that moment

01:18:44

I Mean, that's what that word. That's what the word means. And so when it's not about saying

01:18:50

It's just talking about saved from a tragedy. I and so what I believe is talking about the destruction of the

01:18:56

Jerusalem So I'll I guess I've always Just read it saved from from hell saved from judgment not

01:19:07

Not I mean it is in a sense I'll lift it because that's what salvation is salvation is is being saved from the wrath of God eternally, but I'm talking about That's that's the way

01:19:18

I've read that my entire life That's lawless is increased people's love will cope But the one who endures to the end and I always assume the end

01:19:26

There is his life because of him one of the man wasn't dying after that judgment And then after the judgment being saved from that judgment

01:19:35

And then the tag at 14 The gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations and then the end will come so to me it would be impossible to read 12 and 13 and And and put that in a timeline with 14 at the end.

01:19:54

Whereas 12 and 13 would be running with 14 like this that makes sense.

01:20:00

Yeah so in any of you and whether partial printers

01:20:06

Well, I think it's perfect. I think if it's perfect in my view, I mean there were false prophets who arose.

01:20:12

I mean Like I said earlier you had Serenthis the

01:20:18

Jewish nation was teaching that Jesus was not the Christ So by doing so they were

01:20:23

Antichrist. There were false prophets And it says and lawlessness is is sin

01:20:32

Because lawlessness will increase sin will increase and the love of many will grow cold well that that definitely was taking place you had the

01:20:42

Jewish revolt that stood up. I can see that I can see that taking that way because lawlessness would definitely be a nod to the

01:20:54

Jews trying to keep the law that was given and how they're they're breaking of their own law

01:21:00

The more that more that happens the more Hatred there is amongst their own people

01:21:08

Because they weren't breaking I mean they weren't following the covenant that God had set out for him to follow

01:21:18

Contrast to everything. I mean Jesus gave them what the law was supposed to accomplish they rejected that as a whole

01:21:27

But I can still see go ahead. No, go ahead. I can still see How how that applied a hundred percent thing

01:21:35

I won't make any that's a I can totally place that Wherever you want on the timeline

01:21:42

Because there's false prophets running rampant today in America.

01:21:47

Yeah, that's what I was talking about earlier with like the Christ Like we still see these things.

01:21:53

Yeah, I believe he's speaking about a specific Event or events that would unfold in this times

01:22:00

Especially right here where it talks about the end the event to see the nearest antecedent to the end is the end of the age

01:22:07

Which would have been when the temple fell? and we show and then last week we showed about the gospel being preached to the

01:22:16

To all nations Romans 16. It says that it was preached to all the nations Word nations can be translated as Gentiles But the ultimate the the ultimate proof would be the abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke about and And on that man,

01:22:35

I keep hearing my daughter cry. Give me a second. I May have to actually

01:22:41

I Really need to be checking on some quick. I didn't realize we had been on here for nearly an hour and a half

01:22:47

Because really quick. Oh, yeah So we can wrap it up and come next week come back to it.

01:22:57

Yeah Next week I will I will have to come in late, but that's fine.

01:23:03

Okay. I enjoy this. I want to make sure that I Take everything that's being said and I Want to do justice to your view.

01:23:16

I don't want to try to broad stroke anything. That's the only reason I'm taking one verse at a time You know,

01:23:22

I want to I want there to be respect given because some of the things I've read online They're all six scrolls writings, which are you know,

01:23:32

I always viewed him to be pretty solid right don't understand his infant baptism thing Whatever we don't either

01:23:41

Now there's no it'll be on here that like Daniel Yeah, he's pretty

01:23:51

But I've really found there'd be some interesting things on the timeline I still sort of hold to fact that That in large parts of that to the church followed the temple is very very important to their relationship with Christ in fact it

01:24:15

It is but the RC scrolls writings and dating revelation I don't understand how he's how he's put this together because reckon if I'm wrong

01:24:25

But don't don't preterist theology hinge a

01:24:32

Lot on the temple destruction and the book of Revelation being written in 68 AD temple destruction in 70

01:24:38

AD Am I wrong in that? Yeah, the the other ship would be prior to 70

01:24:44

AD So this writer and I can I think I'm on the company computer because I've got to bring my tablet and my

01:24:52

Bible I can see if I could pull this up on my phone I don't know how I got here.

01:24:57

But according to this writer he quotes scroll as saying it's an uphill battle decline to prove revelation was written prior to 70

01:25:06

AD that somehow scroll both adhere to a preterist view and a 95

01:25:11

AD Writing which to me sounds like a contradiction source. I don't see how he's done that granted.

01:25:17

This is a very long document I haven't got to the end of the ship. So give us the conclusion. I Haven't read the whole thing.

01:25:25

That's what I'm saying. Whatever you get get to the end. Okay, I'll let us know what I'd rather Because this guy quotes so many different guys.

01:25:35

I'll have to go in and source it like right here He's quoting from the Parousa by Sproul Last days pages 9, 13, 24, 38, 56, 86.

01:25:47

I may be saying Parousa wrong Cherubim, that's how we would say One is

01:25:54

Disappointed to find no exegetical or theological discussion of this text by Sproul It was eminently pitiful of such because Sproul places an extreme importance on these

01:26:05

Indicators, it's unfathomable why such a treatment has not been included in his body again

01:26:12

Having not read down to that page yet. I don't know that I would I don't know what context that state

01:26:19

So, I don't want to I don't want to give it unfair shape to it because As a historical guy, there's nobody in my camp that is willing to dialogue

01:26:31

And I think that's sad, yeah Because I think that you would be foolish to discount the importance to the

01:26:44

Jewish culture of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. I Know that it's important to the

01:26:52

Jews. It's their centerpiece of their entire worship was around the temple But that is not the

01:26:58

Christians centerpiece of this worship. Our objective is Christ. We worship

01:27:03

Him, Him alone. and And I suppose I still come back to that and I had some other things

01:27:10

I was going to ask But I feel like in good conscience. I can't stay here any longer. So I'll ask you this and then if you ask

01:27:18

Brother Jeff or if you've got an answer for it Do you tie in your 2nd

01:27:23

Thessalonians chapter 2 to your Matthew chapter 4 that you read when

01:27:30

Paul speak. Well, here we go. Sorry gentlemen. No, you're good I was telling him that I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to go but one of the questions that I wanted to ask

01:27:40

Was around 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 when Paul is expressly talking about How we shouldn't give

01:27:47

Credits to to those who've said that the Lord has already returned so there appeared to be some amount of talk even in those days of Christ's return either happening in that moment or have already happened and The wording is interesting

01:28:06

Because it does seem to track with Matthew 24, so I'm gonna

01:28:12

I'm gonna read it in parallel here. I think I'm And I was just curious as to if your thoughts

01:28:24

As to what you're not sure if you want to know my thoughts on 2nd Thessalonians Guys crazy

01:28:35

Well, I mean whenever you so Now we ask you brothers and sisters regarding the come of our

01:28:42

Lord Jesus and the gathering together to him that you not be quickly Shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us

01:28:52

To the effect that the day of the Lord has come No one is to deceive you in any way for it has not come unless the apostasy comes first That's one of the things

01:29:03

I want to ask So put that in your back pocket and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of destruction

01:29:09

But opposes and exalts himself above every so called God or object of worship or object of worship

01:29:15

So that he takes his seat in the temple. I Lost my place so that he takes his seat in the temple of God displaying himself as God as being

01:29:24

God Do you not remember that while I was still with you? I was telling you these things and you know what restrains him now

01:29:33

So that he will be revealed in his time For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.

01:29:42

Only he who restrains will do so until he is removed Then the lawless one will be revealed

01:29:47

And the Lord will eliminate with the breath of his mouth and bring it and bring to an end by the appearance of his coming that is

01:29:56

The one who's coming is in accord with the activity of Satan with all power of false signs

01:30:03

Wonders and with the and with all the deception of wickedness of those or for those who perish

01:30:11

Because they did not accept the love of truth So as to be saved for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence that they will believe what is false

01:30:20

In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in Wickedness now, obviously

01:30:27

I read more than the section that I wanted but for the sake of context thought I would do so So do you trip do you say that No one deceived you that it would not come unless apostasy comes first.

01:30:40

So when I was Preparing some questions not that I wrote them down because I'm not very smart like that.

01:30:47

I see that the apostasy I've always been taught that's a falling away Do you think that that lines up with Matthew chapter 10 or Matthew chapter 24 and verse 10?

01:30:57

Where you see at that time many will fall away and betray one another. Do you view those as being the same the same thing?

01:31:06

Well, let me tell you Let me tell you my take on this So verse 3 where it says let no one deceive you

01:31:15

We're back into any Yeah No one deceive you in any way for that day will not come unless But you would say the apostasy it's the rebellion comes first So this would have been what

01:31:30

I would say is the Jewish revolt that took place in 66 AD so because if the antecedent to this in verse 2

01:31:42

It speaks about the coming of the Lord the coming of the Lord always is in reference of judgment

01:31:51

All throughout the Old Testament the coming of the Lord is judgment it says now, you know

01:31:56

To the effect that the day of the Lord the day of the Lord is judgment

01:32:02

Has come but no one to see me that day The day what day the coming of the day of the

01:32:09

Lord judgment will not come unless the rebellion comes first Which would have been 66

01:32:15

AD is when the Jewish revolt started So Apostasy here is not the words you would have used if you were writing that you would have used rebellion

01:32:26

I want to make sure I'm fair. Yeah, so the apostasy is not speaking about a Christian apostasy

01:32:31

It's speaking about Jews rebelling against their own system

01:32:39

And let me finish freaking you out for a minute And The man of lawlessness is revealed son of destruction and I'll get into who he is in just a second

01:32:51

Yes, I have a name Who opposes himself and against every so -called

01:33:00

God or object of worship so that He takes his seat in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be

01:33:06

God so So So in order to be a high priest you had to be a part of the five families but at this time

01:33:21

Ananias had died at this time Because after Caiaphas was high priest and Ananias was the high priest and when

01:33:29

Caiaphas died This was the Jews in the Jewish revolt Forced a man to be a high priest who was not a part of the five families and His name was

01:33:42

Phineas Ben Samuel Phineas Ben Samuel Was the high priest during the destruction of the temple?

01:33:52

He was he was forced by the Jewish revolt to become the high priest when the temple fell it said that Phineas Ben Samuel was in the temple when it fell

01:34:04

So right here. We have a false high priest a high priest that should not have been a high priest

01:34:11

Taking his seat in the temple of God. Is that where that Edomite stuff comes in? It gets deep

01:34:21

Well, it says to that end is anybody who claims himself to be high priest Not not following this would

01:34:28

Caiaphas not fall into the same trap because Jesus as well But the deal is is that the temple was still standing

01:34:37

So there was a time where both the ages were overlapping and Although Jesus was the high priest and the fulfillment of all these things

01:34:48

These earthly shadows were still active on earth and God still took them serious

01:34:56

But this was you know, this was a covenant that he was going to see through the out through the end

01:35:03

All right, so so so I believe that this the the man of lawlessness is

01:35:12

Phineas Ben Samuel he was put in put to put put in the position of high priest.

01:35:18

That's during 66 ad because of the death of Ananias and and and it says verse 5 it says do you not remember when

01:35:29

I was with you that I told you these things? And you and you know what is restraining him now so that He may be revealed in his time.

01:35:40

So at this time when this letter was written and Ananias was still alive and Ananias is what was restraining this evil from taking place now,

01:35:54

I want to take you back to the Gospels real quick and Ananias was the one who is whom who kept peace with Rome Go back whenever Jesus is being crucified and all this stuff's taken down.

01:36:06

We have no king but Caesar. This is Ananias and Ananias is the one who kept peace with Rome this would have been during the

01:36:20

Whenever Caiaphas was the high priest so so the one who is restraining him now,

01:36:26

I would see as Ananias the one who is in the office of high priest who is best friends with Rome Once he's taken out of the way the mystery of lawlessness will be revealed

01:36:39

The mystery of lawlessness is the Jews putting someone that's not a part of the five families in as a high priest only and this is

01:36:49

You know only now, you know what is restraining him until he's out of the way again Speaking of another high priest

01:36:54

Ananias and then it says and then the law then lawlessness will be revealed whom the

01:37:01

Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and Bring to nothing at the appearing of his coming.

01:37:08

Well now what coming is this talking about? The end the nearest antecedent the day of the

01:37:13

Lord Judgment so when he came in judgment the temple fell and And and and Phineas Ben Samuel was in the temple

01:37:28

So you're saying he was killed in the temple in 70 AD when it fell Mm -hmm, and then on down where it says in the coming of the lawlessness

01:37:37

Lawless one that would have been Phineas Is by the act is by the activity of Satan With the powers of false signs and wonders the activity of Satan's would have been the

01:37:49

Jewish revolt and with all wickedness deception for those who are perishing because they

01:37:57

Refuse to love the truth and be saved now. Listen to this verse 11 Therefore God sent them a strong delusion so that they may believe what is false

01:38:07

Now this right here is probably going to take you off Just what I believe what he's talking about here that to believe what is false is the custom of Moses the sacrificial system

01:38:21

Okay Because at that time the sacrificial system had become their

01:38:27

God if this was their goading path that they danced around Jesus was to appear in the fullness of time and Galatians talks about When the fullness of time comes you're no longer under a guardian you are to receive, you know when

01:38:42

Jesus comes you are to leave the sacrificial system and And cling to Jesus Christ, but instead of doing so They held on to the sacrificial system.

01:38:53

They refused to believe that Jesus was to Christ made them Antichrist So the strong delusion was the

01:39:00

Mosaic law that was established Sacrificial system Do what that was a lot to take in I'm sorry, it was a lot to take you know,

01:39:15

I don't So I'm chewing on it, but I have answers, you know, whether you like them or not

01:39:26

I mean whether I like them or dislike them doesn't change whether they're true or not, you know

01:39:31

Yeah, like historically historically you can prove all this to be true. I mean, I'm not I have no problem whatsoever with the temple or the guy

01:39:40

Benjamin that she's talking about Phineas Ben Samuel. Phineas Ben Samuel.

01:39:46

So it would have been Phineas son of Samuel. Yeah, so And and to some to some ends

01:39:54

I understand what you're talking about how they had turned God's law that they were supposed to be keeping to have communion with God into a form of self -righteousness

01:40:05

Something that they were trying to use to work their way into God's presence Whatever the law was meant to drive me into the cross and bring all men under condemnation

01:40:16

I don't have any problem with any of that. I do think however that that that ultimately bolsters my viewpoint of how important then is the temple to the church to the

01:40:28

Christian in terms of its destruction and if and if the temple's if the temple's destruction

01:40:36

Ultimately doesn't bear a lot of weight for the Christian whether it be in it looked at in terms of the end of an age or end of an era or in terms of The the change of authority

01:40:49

I Can see why John the Revelator Would have left some of that out

01:40:55

Book written in 95 AD as we saw that earlier. I Read about earlier the last meeting that I was involved in.

01:41:05

I Think that part of what you said there in dealing with verse 12 More or less

01:41:11

That's what I've trying to been saying trying to say to some degree Anyway, does that make sense when

01:41:17

I say that but ultimately Christ being the center of the Christians entire world entire eternity means that anything else

01:41:26

Takes secondary tertiary or even further down the list and realm of importance.

01:41:32

This would have included the temple to a contemporary Jewish born convert to Christianity a

01:41:40

Jewish born convert Christianity shouldn't have looked at the temple as Anything other than a building or any of the things that goes on in the temple other than anything

01:41:49

That's already been answered for on the cross That does that make sense

01:41:54

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so so I stuff like that doesn't that doesn't bother me because I think that it does line up with With with my view of how important the gospel is to the believer furthermore any view other than Christ being the ultimate authority and the ultimate

01:42:14

The ultimate goal of the believer is to set up in our temple

01:42:20

An idol of sorts and to render this temple desolate That's kind of the way

01:42:27

I've always read the abomination made desolations. He was liking He was liking the temple being made desolate by the

01:42:38

Spirit of God Leaving the temple because that is no longer The focal point of where the worship to God is supposed to take place

01:42:47

But the worship to God is to take place in spirit and truth, which is done in the temple, which was made by Christ So what

01:42:55

I see as the abomination that causes desolation so desolation is when Jerusalem Was surrounded by the armies of Rome and then

01:43:04

Rome came in and ultimately destroyed their temple So you have to ask yourself.

01:43:09

Well, why did Rome do this? Well Rome did this personally because of the

01:43:14

Jewish revolt The Jews have has started a war it was fighting against them

01:43:20

Rome Had to take control of the situation. So they came in they didn't come in with Intent to destroy the temple or anything like that The Roman soldiers became mad like they like like there's books on about they just was overwhelmed with rage

01:43:39

Once they came in there and they ended up burning the temple down So but Rome sends them because of the

01:43:47

Jewish revolt Rome Rome sent its army because of the Jewish revolt now, you got to ask you a question.

01:43:54

Why did God send the Roman army? Because as the same way that I use this pencil

01:44:01

Where's my camera to write this pencil is what I'm using to write words down God used

01:44:10

Rome to destroy Jerusalem So here's my reasons that I believe it took place and it's because of what

01:44:23

I've been saying Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice after Jesus being the the lamb being the high priest who made this once -and -for -all sacrifice and that you know

01:44:38

Jews kept going back to the temple and making a sacrifice for sins after Jesus had already made the sacrifice

01:44:46

Romans 6 says that it is the They're crucifying once again the

01:44:52

Son of God to their own harm That was the abomination that caused desolation

01:45:00

By them going to the temple and making sacrifice that sacrifice that was being made

01:45:07

Week after week was the abomination that caused the desolation. I Think that it was

01:45:14

God's grace that made him destroy the temple to stop that Absolutely. Yeah, because because if the temple was still here now

01:45:21

They would still be able to sacrifice animals and they would still be crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm

01:45:27

No temple, no sacrifice. I suppose the ultimate question goes down and I don't know how you answer this

01:45:34

I don't know that it has an answer so much as it's just an open -ended question Because I think you'd have to have the mind of Lord to understand to what to what level of Of Anger or To what degree of an abomination would

01:45:56

God view Sacrificing in a temple that he has already

01:46:02

Tore the veil of and pulled from the Holy of Holies that that thing that made that temple different So this ritualistic sacrifices that was going on in other countries that never was described in the past by God It was some pagan thing.

01:46:19

Would God look at that with the same contempt as he would What was going on in the temple in Jerusalem or would

01:46:26

God look at the temple of Jerusalem as being more offensive? Because it had it had bore his name in the past You dig my question.

01:46:35

Yeah, so I'm gonna answer this but I want to answer it and in humility I want to be humble because I don't want you to think that I have the mind of God I would say the reason why it matters is because these

01:46:53

Sacrifices that were taking place before Christ. They were a type in a shadow of Who was to come so so these sacrifices were a representation of Jesus Christ and what he would ultimately fulfill with his life death and burial resurrection and ascension and Even though he made this made the sacrifice

01:47:16

This picture this word picture these types and shadows Still bore that image of being a shadow of the substance

01:47:26

Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's why that matters Now could

01:47:31

I be wrong? Yeah I'm open to that But if you want me to hit a softball, that would be my answer

01:47:40

Well, and I suppose I can see where you're coming from. You know that building having for 4 ,000 years being or not quite 4 ,000 years, but that building being one that that was used his name was used in worship

01:47:57

Every Saturday and the sacrifices they're saying he has required they're saying these laws

01:48:02

He's required by not by still using his name but not honoring what he's already done in the person of Jesus Christ to be

01:48:10

More abominable than to not to not be referencing God at all say in some

01:48:19

Ethiopian Cultic pagan practice that may have been going on at the exact same time where they're slaughtering guineafowl.

01:48:27

Yeah, you know, I don't know Just a It's a lot to process

01:48:34

And it's a lot to try to I'm bad to want to go back and forth

01:48:39

And I don't do that I'll tell you man you Like whenever I was wrestling through these issues.

01:48:48

I had no one to bounce ideas off with You know,

01:48:54

I didn't have nobody I could call there was no one to talk to it was just me going reading the

01:49:01

Bible going crazy kind of, you know, very few YouTube videos about this stuff and Well, I don't like that I don't doubt the historical and It's you can prove it through biblical biblical and and extra biblical records where the fall of Jerusalem is accurately foretold and accurately

01:49:24

Depicted here at least in part in Matthew 24. I still think that Still think

01:49:33

That there's a parallel story being told However, but how many parallel stories would it have to be like when you start thinking about Well, I mean to you know to be frank to because I can see where a lot of things

01:49:53

Jesus is telling his disciples a lot of things that Jesus was was prophesying about or teaching in parables he was teaching very true very earthly very low branch

01:50:08

Truths that sometimes the disciples even failed to grasp But each one of those truths also had a spiritual meaning to it

01:50:15

That he would have to go back and tell them over again. You used a parable of the sowers each one of those statements

01:50:21

He's talking about what seeds is accurate from the agricultural point of view You'd be hard -pressed to find any any fault any of that statement

01:50:28

He goes he goes a step further and says I'm what I'm talking about is the gospel what I'm talking about is the hearts of Men and the gospel being being planted in those hearts and those gospel and that gospel bringing forth fruit

01:50:40

Well, there was a spiritual truth alongside a very literal and a very physical truth, and I'm not saying that anything you're saying is wrong

01:50:52

But you know don't don't misunderstand, but I do believe that there's also a spiritual truth That is as valid if not, you know, we look at So much of secular culture has tainted

01:51:06

The way we view things that are spiritual people view things in our common day

01:51:11

Now as things that are spiritual is being less real than things that are physical Is that a fair statement?

01:51:18

Absolutely, and sometimes people chalk up nonsense to things that are spiritual that ain't a bit more spiritual than the man in the moon

01:51:24

And they just use that word because you can't prove them wrong So I think that there's an underlying spiritual truth that's being told through every verse of this scripture and I'm trying to understand it because I'm already alive past 70

01:51:40

AD and how How I apply this To to my life.

01:51:46

I believe that every line of this text is relevant It's relevant for me and relevant for however many generations live past me

01:51:54

And if I miss something if I miss something because I'm Preoccupied with making sure

01:52:04

I'm either looking for the return of the Lord or I'm trying to figure out how to fit all of this into a

01:52:13

Timeline, I'm afraid I'm going to miss what may be the biggest point to it if and that's that's why

01:52:20

I listen With the attention that I do it's not it's not to try to become a preterist just to try to better understand

01:52:28

Well, you're already a preterist again if you believe that Jesus came in the first coming

01:52:34

Yeah, I mean you get what I'm talking about. So the word preterist just means past. Yeah, but I mean again

01:52:39

I'm just a lot more preterist so my my challenge to you would be this is when you know when you're reading through here because I take application

01:52:50

Like I can read through Matthew 24 Preach it through my congregation and give application

01:52:58

But I don't look for a second fulfillment because I don't see how there can be a second fulfillment of the

01:53:05

Sun moon stars fallen because this was Jerusalem being judged. I don't see a second for you know fulfillment of this the appearing of the

01:53:14

Sun the sign of the Son of Man in the sky the the second fulfillment of Him sending out his angels with a loud trumpet call to gather the elect

01:53:26

Like I see that this right here is still being fulfilled that God has

01:53:32

Hebrews talks about angels are are ministering spirits sent to sent to minister to the elect

01:53:41

Imagine that when you're preaching the gospel there's angels present Ministering to the hearts of the elect at that very moment that's what this verse is talking about that because Death has been defeated on the cross.

01:53:58

The the the devil Satan has been destroyed on the cross

01:54:03

Hebrews chapter 2 tells you plain that that happened That now he sends his angels to minister

01:54:12

And it's the Word of Christ is being preached and so I When I look at this,

01:54:20

I just don't see anything that tells me that this that You know specifically right now.

01:54:27

We're speaking of Matthew 24 that any of this can be You know related to that a second fulfillment

01:54:39

With a comment Remind me to touch on verse 36 afterwards, okay

01:54:49

This this shouldn't take too long. What keeps me from going in that direction of looking for a second fulfillment or And and look for application night, you know,

01:54:57

I can understand we want to I don't see a problem with that But looking for a second fulfillment double fulfillment

01:55:04

That kind of thing it to me. It comes across as Like a book there's a front cover.

01:55:09

There's a back cover and there's there's a middle Section that has the the information, you know here in Matthew 24, you've got the front cover

01:55:18

With the first few verses there with Jesus and the disciples And they ask the question

01:55:25

And and then he begins to answer which is the the bulk of the book and then you get to the verse 34

01:55:36

As more of the the back cover You know all all these things

01:55:42

So he it's kind of it's kind of confined into into one one place

01:55:52

There's a question and then there's the answer and then there's the close For tells you 34 tells you that it says truly

01:56:04

I say to you near demonstrative I'm a second -person plural this generation the near demonstrative not that generation this generation will not pass a

01:56:16

Intake place. So at least we have to say from verses 1 to 34 has to happen before That generation passes away and then it says heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away

01:56:31

It's a Jewish belief that heaven and earth was the temple that the temple is where heaven and earth met

01:56:37

It was the building that that house the kind of glory This is where God dwelled on earth

01:56:45

Now he dwells in an imperfect tense like myself and you and Robert You know, he dwells in us, but but check this out

01:56:55

This is what I wanted to point out but concerning that day verse 36 But concerning that day what day

01:57:06

Right. It's the day of the Lord but concerning that day when the when the

01:57:11

Sun's dark and the moon gives us light and the and The Sun is dark and The moon will not give us light in the stars fall and you see the sign of the

01:57:22

Son of Man appear in heaven concerning that day an Hour no one knows not even the angels in heaven nor the

01:57:31

Son of Man, but the Father only Jesus knows now. I mean he

01:57:36

Jesus knew whenever he left the earth He didn't know as a man, but he knew when he was

01:57:44

Resurrected he knew that day an hour because he was talking about he said this generation

01:57:50

This generation he knew it was a 40 -year period not not not not Now verse 37 is where it gets you for as Were the days of Noah So will be the coming of the

01:58:05

Son of Man. So you go back and In the context it talks about the

01:58:10

Son of Man First verse 27 for as lightning comes from the east and shines and as far as the

01:58:17

West So will be the coming of the Son of Man where the corpses where the corpses are there the vultures were gathered

01:58:23

Then he goes through that that that immediately Tribal immediately after the tribulation verse 30 then the sign of the

01:58:33

Son of Man will appear And so right here in verse 37 It says as it was in the days of Noah So will it be the day the coming of the

01:58:41

Son of Man speaking of the context where we just were where you'll see The Son of Man and the sign of the

01:58:48

Son of Man in the sky It says for as in those days before the flood they were eaten and drinking marrying and given in marriage until that day when

01:59:01

Noah entered the ark and They were unaware They were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away

01:59:11

So will be the coming of the Son of Man now right here is very important It says then two men will be in the field

01:59:19

One will be taken and another left two women will be grinding at the mill one taken and Another one left.

01:59:28

Let me ask you something in The days of Noah who was taken and who was left?

01:59:36

When you say taken you talking about killed destroyed well so in verse 40

01:59:45

The antecedent to the two men in the field. It's speaking of the days of Noah and In the context is talking about the flood came.

01:59:54

It says Noah and his family entered the boat right They entered the ark and they were unaware

02:00:01

Speaking of the people they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away so the taken in the context is

02:00:12

The people who were swept away Okay. All right. This been pre -millennialism teaches

02:00:21

That this is speaking of a rapture that the two men that the one that's taken it's taken in a rapture to heaven and The one that's left is the wicked

02:00:33

But in our story the one that's taken is the wicked He swept off the earth in the flood and the one that's left is the righteous

02:00:42

I've actually heard it both ways But but but now look at it this way At 70

02:00:49

AD who was taken and who was left? To 70 AD there was a wrath of God came just like it done in that day of the flood

02:00:58

But instead of waters it was Rome and the wicked were taken and the righteous who who left the city were left

02:01:12

This you know, this isn't you know, I'm not over here with a with a Candy bar saying hey, look at this candy bar and putting a bag over your head with this hand, you know, like I'm not trying to trick anything.

02:01:26

It's just right there in the text. I see where you're coming from I was gonna say

02:01:35

I have solved I have heard them, but I don't describe to either of the

02:01:42

Yeah, I know you do not yeah, but but I have heard it said that From pre -millennial dispensations that but the flood

02:01:54

Noah's family being carried up to the top of the waters just symbolic of meeting Christ in the air and then the

02:01:59

Ones that were taken and removed for those that were left on the earth and Noah returned to the earth

02:02:06

After the floodwaters receded and then I heard about it in a candy bar and a bag putting it over your head so I like I said,

02:02:15

I've heard both of those and And I feel like there was a lot said to try to To try and I'm not going to try to pick it at any part of it because some of it's some of it

02:02:27

I'm fine with some of it some of it I think is So I would say

02:02:36

That I can see every level where there's a legitimate physical manifestation of what

02:02:45

Christ says is gonna happen and And and the fall but then I see that overarching spiritual truth that is pulled from it

02:02:55

What I don't see the way that you just described it is where Those two lines run parallel and that view at times it seems like There's a very literal historical preference to parts of this chapter while Spiritual aspects of it are used to prove other parts where there is no

02:03:19

Spiritual application like the flood. So you say in the first 36

02:03:25

The hour come 7 for some man be like the days of Noah for those days before the flood

02:03:32

They were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in the marriage Until the day in which Noah entered the ark Now there has to be some reason that Jesus would speak this way

02:03:41

And say they were drinking marrying and giving in the marriage. There has to be some spiritual truth there I don't believe he would have said it and then they did not understand the flood came and took them away

02:03:51

So the spiritual truth is just them living their life as normal Well, perhaps you may be perhaps a hundred percent, right?

02:03:59

But the fact of the matter is that the floodwaters took them all away Noah was took with the floodwaters in the ark.

02:04:07

He was just spared death But he didn't go where he he didn't he didn't drive that boat

02:04:14

He was in the boat. He was along for the ride God was driving the floodwaters, driving the ship. God was in complete control of that entire situation both the salvation of Noah and the destruction of those that were left behind and I would say in the context though the being swept away.

02:04:31

It's speaking of intimate death And that's fine. I'm fine with that.

02:04:38

Versus being tossed tossed by the waves but Be that as it may

02:04:45

If you're going to look at it as imminent death then at the end of the flood there was no going back.

02:04:56

There was no there's there was absolutely Secular history, religious history

02:05:03

Everybody knows there was a flood There was never a going back to a time prior to the flood

02:05:09

Where things are going to just carry on like like like they always had been done Every time there's a rainbow we were reminded of the covenant that God made with Noah and man that he wouldn't destroy the earth in The same way not that he wouldn't bring judgment on the earth ever again

02:05:24

But that he wouldn't destroy the earth which I know y 'all believe that in that same way as I do most every

02:05:30

Christian would so Trying to apply that to this

02:05:39

To the post 70 AD Christian Who didn't who wasn't born

02:05:44

Jewish I Don't I can't see how you can take the flood and put that in this same

02:05:54

The same spiritual condor the same spiritual application and it means the same thing Whereas I can see that if if this judgment

02:06:05

That comes on like the flood is final and then there is no more There is no more life as you know it after that this is going to be an eternal thing

02:06:14

But in the context in the context it is definitely speaking

02:06:21

I mean because it will which I probably did a Poor job of doing this because I'm I know you said you had to get off here and I was just trying to touch back

02:06:30

But it mentioned the coming of the Son of Man and I pointed out Two verses where it spoke of the coming of the

02:06:38

Son of Man and it was You know verse I See your verse 27 for as the lightning comes from the east and shines in the

02:06:48

West so will be the coming of the Son of Man and then in verse 30 then will appear the sign of the

02:06:54

Son of Man and And the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the

02:07:00

Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great glory This is him coming in judgment This would have been the same coming that we see in 2nd

02:07:07

Thessalonians the day of the Lord And so the and he says for as the days of Noah's so will be the coming of the

02:07:15

Son of Man So so he's using the days of Noah to express what? What's going to happen when he comes in judgment and in verse 31

02:07:27

You get to the end of verse 30 in verse 31 he's quoting and He was sent forth as angels with a great trumpet and they were gathered together his elect when the four winds from one end of the sky to the other and I just I Have I have a really hard time or understanding how all the all the

02:07:52

Christians were gathered together And we're on this and so and so if you remember

02:07:59

I said that I believe that this right here Began then but this is still taking place

02:08:06

Okay Because Hebrews talks about Hebrews chapter 1 talks about the the angels are ministering spirits to the elect

02:08:19

You did say that and there was somebody there were so many points made I want to like to add to one of the points

02:08:27

John you were talking about how when the the flood came the first time and it changed everything completely

02:08:35

Where you couldn't go back to it And you don't see the comparison with the flood to in this scenario

02:08:44

Making a good good clean comparison, I guess But if you look at Daniel chapter 9 verse 27

02:08:49

And it says that he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week but in the middle of that week, he will put a stop to the sacrifice and You know, the the temple was destroyed in 70

02:09:01

AD and we you know We've kind of hinted on the fact that it's not come back.

02:09:06

I mean it was eternity at that moment Go ahead

02:09:12

John, I would say that Christ's resurrection rendered the temple Mm -hmm

02:09:19

Meaningless in terms of any kind of ongoing relationship you have with God, right some 37 years prior to the destruction of the temple.

02:09:28

Yeah, I've got no problem whatsoever with with God's view on How obsolete the temple worship would have been.

02:09:39

Yeah, we're 100 % in alignment with that so And I really would like to talk about this man,

02:09:47

I really would I just I know I got got to go I've been in here way too long. Well, let's wrap it up for tonight

02:09:53

Write write down your thoughts write down your thoughts both of you and and get them back in next time

02:09:58

I want to start back in on Matthew 24 starting in verse 14 and something

02:10:04

I want to want you to think about Because we we left there and went somewhere else But John something

02:10:09

I wanted you to think about because we're talking about the the salvific aspect of the the context

02:10:15

Is it salvation? Is it being saved from the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome?

02:10:22

look at this usage of the gospel of the kingdom

02:10:30

Think think about why he's he specifically says the gospel of the kingdom I think there may be something to that that may help answer some of those questions and Jeff Maybe can't give us some enlightenment on that.

02:10:42

I'll go back and listen to my message preached on it Well, and Jeff I wanted to give you something to that next time

02:10:52

Maybe you will have time to have looked at it and Give us give us an answer.

02:10:58

I'm back to five. Tell me again. I'm back at two five and the specific phrase

02:11:09

Draw all nations to himself and this is not eschatological. I don't think this is in a different context and And You if we can figure out the meaning what is meant by that in Habakkuk 2 chapter 2 verse 5 because that phrase

02:11:29

Draw all nations to himself How about all the nations coming to Jerusalem That that comes up a lot in eschatology make disciples of all the nations over and over again

02:11:45

So, why wouldn't you say it hasn't has eschatological Well, well it may but on the surface.

02:11:52

He's talking about a halty man being Messed up by too much wine and Somehow So the way that I interpret the

02:12:06

Old Testament I have a more redemptive historical Approach to it.

02:12:11

I think that's the way the Apostles have it and I think that's the way Jesus himself set it out Everything has to do with I mean not every verse has to deal with Christ, but but everything is going to have something to do with the message of Christ Like like every book you'll see

02:12:30

Jesus Christ in the book. I agree with that Brothers, I love y 'all.

02:12:36

I appreciate y 'all. Thank y 'all for love. Come on and joy. Let me say brother. Yes. Yes, sir

02:12:41

Y 'all have a good week. We'll see you next time. Yes, sir Jeff if you want to wrap things up and We'll cover

02:12:50

Habakkuk 2 next time. They'll be fine too because we've been on a while All right, all right, let let me pray for us and we'll we'll jump back in next time.

02:13:00

All right, sounds good Father, I thank you so much for my brothers that I'm not not getting to meet physically

02:13:10

We're not we're not able to fellowship and share a meal. But father you you have borne this technology and Grown this technology to where we can fellowship and we can look at your word and and learn and grow from each other as you teach us through Discussion you teach us through your word.

02:13:32

So father, we're just so grateful for your

02:13:38

Merciful kindness and your loving kindness toward us. We pray that you were honored and glorified in our conversation and We pray your blessings as we seek to meet together more often

02:13:52

We pray all these things in Jesus name. Amen Amen, brother. All right Ending broadcast.