Dead Men Walking Podcast with Mackenzie Morgan Holloway: Why theology matters in worship music

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00:15

Hey man, I do it with the drums. You're a drummer. I'm always like, yeah. And you're always looking at me probably like, what are you doing?

00:22

That's not even where you're supposed to be right now. Those are the toms. Here's the key to air guitar. You just take your hand like this and then you just go like this with your fingers.

00:29

Have you seen those competitions? Oh, they're real. They're insane. And they're like accurate. Those guys.

00:34

You're so good. I'm like, you're a much better guitar player than me. I always wondered if any of them are actual guitar.

00:41

Yeah. Yeah. I'd never know. I mean, some of them are very accurate. What's the guitar here. I can't play guitar hero whatsoever.

00:48

I can play a guitar, but I can't play guitar hero whatsoever. And some of those levels,

00:53

I mean, they just get going. It's so crazy when I see those guys that are really good at guitar hero, but then you can't play guitar and you go, you just put all that time and energy.

01:01

I know. An actual. Yeah. You'd be insane. You wouldn't have to carry a PS5 around with you. You could just have an acoustic and there you go.

01:08

But yeah. Look at that. We're already talking about music. That's right. How you been? You good? Doing great, man.

01:13

Doing so good. Yeah. Summer's going awesome. Have you broke out the camper this week or? Next week.

01:19

Next week. And then the week after that too. Nice. We're getting them in. You have to, man. Speaking of music, I saw a little video clip of you and your daughter.

01:26

She was head bobbing. Oh yeah. The story. Yeah, man. She is dancing. What a cutie.

01:32

All the time. Yeah, man. I love it. I love it. She loves music, man. Oh, that's so funny. It's like a blessing and a curse when you have musicians as parents, because it's just music all the time in my house too.

01:43

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's like piano and guitar and drums. Cool, man. We don't want to banter for too long because we have a special guest on and I can hardly wait to talk.

01:53

I know. It's going to be awesome. So there was a Facebook post that went out, I think it was mid -July, and it was talking about theology and music and worship music and all this stuff.

02:02

And got over, geez, a couple million views, a bunch of tens of thousands of shares. Christianity Today picked up this post.

02:09

And then Dr. Sam Storms, who's been on the podcast, wrote a blog post about it.

02:15

And I read through the post and this was, man, this was probably back in July. And I just went, man, that is exactly what we talk about on the podcast when we're talking about music and Theology Matters and things like that.

02:28

But we have Mackenzie Morgan Holloway on the podcast today. Mackenzie, how are you?

02:34

Hi, I'm doing great. Yeah. And she's the one with the infamous Facebook post. Very nice.

02:40

Yeah. So tell us just in a few moments, tell us a little bit about yourself and then we're going to get into Newsy News with you.

02:48

Yeah. Well, yeah, I live right around the Nashville area of Tennessee and I'm a worship leader.

02:54

I've been leading worship for about 10 years and do music of my own. And it's just something

03:00

I'm really passionate about. I lead worship at my church. And yeah, I just love music and love giving back to God what

03:08

I feel he blessed me with how to do so. Amen. Yeah. And we're going to get into a little bit about like why

03:15

Theology Matters and music, you know, what the reaction was on your Facebook post, like how you came to this personal conviction.

03:21

But first we want to do a little Newsy News. Jay, you ready? Yeah. Let's do this. Mackenzie, feel free to jump in if you want to.

03:27

Here we go. News. The News. The Newsy Newsy News. The News. The News. The Newsy Newsy News.

03:34

News. We got some news! Oh, yeah, we got some news. And now the news.

03:41

So I don't know if you guys know this, but facts about pumpkins you never knew. Oh, wait a minute.

03:47

It's pumpkin spice season to be pumpkin spice season. Well, I think it is. I think you're right. This is happening right now.

03:54

So, okay, here we go. Okay. Anti -diabetic. Okay.

04:00

Anti -oxidant. Okay. Anti -carcinogenic. Okay. Anti -inflammatory.

04:07

So many good things about these great orange fruits, vegetable.

04:14

I don't even know. It's a seed. What is it? It's actually a fruit. It's a fruit.

04:20

That's what I said. All right. Nice. Yeah, there we go. There we go. So, yeah, I can't wait to get that in my coffees.

04:28

So we're here in Michigan, right? So we had like a couple like 55 degree evenings. So you decided, hey, we got to start.

04:35

We have to start talking about it, man. We have to start talking about it. It's coming up and some people may need a little bit of direction, you know, getting over there to their favorite

04:45

Starbucks barista. I've got a few friends that can't wait for that pumpkin spice to get going.

04:51

Now, I don't know. I've already been having it. Oh, my gosh. I've had like five or six. Are you serious? It comes out early.

04:58

You got to get involved. That's awesome. Oh, man.

05:04

All right. So second news story. This one was interesting to me just because we just had an episode on the principles of capitalism and kind of biblical principles and what aligns with it and what doesn't.

05:14

And I saw this on the AV Club website and it says how dollar stores scammed America to become worth more than Coca -Cola.

05:21

Right. So I see it. It's a little bit clickbaity how they scammed them. I kind of know the story. The CEO is a real estate broker, and he decided he was going to put them in particular areas.

05:30

So I'm going through the thing, the blog post here, and they're basically saying that dollar stores and dollar generals have put 34 ,000 stores up over the last five years.

05:41

They really have. I think we have about a thousand in our area that just. Yeah, we live in a semi rural area within a couple of miles.

05:50

Seriously. And it just really bugged me because it says, well, what they do is they sell smaller sizes for the same amount or a little bit cheaper.

05:59

So they might take the package size down 25 percent, but only discount the price 20 percent. So they make it up on that five percent.

06:06

And, you know, their average profit per dollar is 30 cents on the dollar. I think Walmart is like 28 cents.

06:13

CVS is like 22 cents. So like one of the highest profit margin per dollar spent.

06:19

And they can make a little bit more than just 30 cents. Right. I'm just saying out of it, out of a dollar average.

06:24

Right. The average is 30 cents, which is really good in retail. But then the article goes on to say this guy, you can just tell.

06:31

And this is this is what really kind of bugged me is he says, oh, they're they're they're scamming people because they're targeting low income areas.

06:40

That can't buy in bulk. So they said, oh, it might seem like a convenience that you can go get something smaller.

06:46

But it's it's bad. It's bad capitalism because they're targeting under 40000 dollar medium incomes to put their stores.

06:56

So then the people who can't afford it are buying, you know, smaller items, smaller products.

07:02

Yeah. And it reminded me of our episode we had on capitalism to where we're always blaming the system instead of taking personal responsibility.

07:10

Yeah. In making wise financial choices. Yeah. And it was kind of I don't know.

07:16

It was just like, you know, I don't know what the motives of Dollar General are. It's probably to make money, to make a profit.

07:22

That's what most businesses are in business for. But it's like it automatically went to let's not talk about the 34000 stores that provide jobs and that upgrade real estate.

07:32

I mean, the one that came in here where we're at, we made them put extra facade on and bring in and put in 10 foot extra worth of dirt.

07:38

And basically remediate the ground underneath. They did one hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of upgrades to the piece of real estate.

07:45

So we don't talk about that. We just say, hey, they're targeting low income. Yeah. And then they admit it's convenient.

07:52

But it says, oh, they're, you know. Right. I don't know. But I mean, if the consumer wants to walk into the place, you know, like like what is the deal?

08:01

You know, because I mean, it's it's more or less this is capital. This is a capitalistic society. Yeah. You know, and I mean, it's

08:07

I mean, I don't go in there for all the products. So I can't honestly say that I know all the products.

08:12

But, you know, if someone's walking into a Dollar General, they're going in there for a reason for something that they need.

08:19

So, yeah, I mean, that's where my brain goes, I guess, on it. But OK, what else we got? Yeah. So it's going to get a little serious here.

08:27

Uber and Lyft with the new Texas law SB8 is an attack on women's access to health care on their right to choose.

08:39

It also threatens to punish drivers for getting women where they need to go.

08:46

Lyft has created a driver legal defense fund to cover 100 percent of legal fees for drivers sued under this law.

08:55

In addition, Lyft says they are donating one million dollars to Planned Parenthood to ensure that transportation is never a barrier to health care access.

09:07

And that was Lyft. That was Lyft. I guess. And I guess Uber is coming alongside of that as well.

09:14

Two more apps to lead it off my phone, I guess. Yeah. So I guess the response here, though, is is so if if if a state makes something illegal and act illegal and you're participating in it, you know, if if you have this, let's say it was the state courthouse.

09:27

Yeah. Or the state capitol, excuse me, in Texas. And it said, hey, no, no assembly here for these days because something is going on.

09:35

And you were a driver driving them there. Yeah. Couldn't you be held liable for? It's almost like a bank robbery.

09:40

It's almost like an accessory. And I know this is sticky because you're going, oh, it's about abortion and women's rights and reproductive and all this stuff.

09:47

But at the end of the day, if you're helping someone do something illegal, isn't there laws against that?

09:53

So is that basically what's going on here? That's what it sounds like. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, Lyft and Uber, I guess not using them when we go down to Atlanta.

10:02

G3. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, man. We'll hoof it. So, OK, last one.

10:08

We usually don't do four, but Australia, we have there's so much news right now, guys. You guys are watching all this unfold with COVID and everything else.

10:18

But this is just a little bit of a list from Australia for what they are pushing down there.

10:26

No parliament, no dissent by medical professionals, no scientific conclusions that do not support the agenda of government.

10:35

No protesting, no uncovered faces, no singing or prayer, no community sports or gyms, no playgrounds, no freedom of movement, no talking to your neighbors in the grocery store, no visitors in your home, no more than one hour outside, no more than five kilometers from your home, no online shopping during lockdowns, no catching of footballs.

10:58

OK, no drinking while standing up. Some of these are like a little bit hyperbole, right?

11:06

I don't know, man. I've heard some really crazy stories down there. And you were talking about one before we started.

11:12

Yeah, that I had heard as well. Yeah, basically, you know, there was a guy that was supposed to be quarantined and they geotag him and they face

11:20

ID him on the on the cell phone. And he has to check in every 15 minutes. He walked down to the store to get like a soda or something.

11:27

And he was in the wrong spot. He was in the wrong spot. And they came and arrested him and threw him in jail and find him.

11:32

So, I mean, isn't this insanity? It's insanity. I mean, have you been following the Australia stuff at all,

11:38

McKenzie, or the craziness that's going on? Around the world? I have heard very, very little.

11:44

And I haven't taken the time yet to dive into that outlet as well. What's going on in the land? But just hearing you say that,

11:51

I'm like, so we're supposed to drink? Like what? Laying down? Yeah, there's definitely some wild rules that they got down there right now.

12:05

Well, and it goes to show that once you take liberty, usually states, the state governments don't give it back.

12:12

They'll push as far as they possibly can because they're not going to give it back. And what's really crazy is to think that Australia is like a country made up of prisoners, basically, from hundreds of years ago.

12:24

That's where the British used to take the prisoners and drop them off there. So they've always kind of had this like rebellious streak.

12:30

But in 1998, they did a federal gun ban. No guns allowed in the whole country. Really? The whole continent.

12:36

Excuse me. And then a mere 12 years later, 10, 20 years later, this is what you get.

12:42

You can't go outside. You can't throw a football. You can't walk down the street. And we throw you in jail for one guy got thrown in jail for visiting his son.

12:51

Yeah. Split custody and went to go pick up his son. And he wasn't supposed to be there. So. Wow. Oh, that's just insane.

12:57

Absolutely. Is that all we got, Jason? Yeah, that's what we got for Newsy News. All right. Cool. All right,

13:02

Mackenzie, let's get into it. I'm excited about this. So give us a little background on this now infamous post that's been viewed and blogged about and all these things.

13:13

Like, were you thinking it was going to get this reaction? Or were you like, I'm going to just say this because it's on my heart. Like, what was that?

13:20

And then I think, Jason, did you want to read a little bit of that? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I can read just a little bit.

13:26

Sorry. I got ahead of myself. No, it's however you guys want to do it. Do you want to? Maybe she could go ahead and introduce everything.

13:32

Yeah, introduce everything, and then we'll read a little bit of it so the listeners know what's going on. Okay. Yeah, sure.

13:39

Yeah. No, it was totally not planned or anything like that.

13:44

I'd had a note in my phone that I'd been working on for maybe a couple weeks, and I remember it had been a hard day at work, and I just came home.

13:54

Maybe I had no cares left to give. But I knew I wanted to, like, share some of my story just on my personal

14:02

Facebook, just with my personal friends. And so randomly just decided at, like, 8 o 'clock on a

14:10

Monday night to post it, and by, like, 11 p .m., we'd had a friend over, and my friend looked on Facebook, and he was like, dang,

14:19

Mackenzie, your post is getting a lot of likes and shares. And I was like, oh, really? And then I looked, and it was like, oh, you're right.

14:27

Like, it really is, though. Like, kind of very out of the ordinary number of likes to get, because, you know,

14:34

Facebook algorithm only shows your post to, like, maybe 30 people of your few hundred

14:39

Facebook friends. So, you know, it was pretty unusual. And then by the next day, it just went, phew.

14:45

And I was like, okay. All right. Well. Definitely struck a chord.

14:53

So what was some of the can you read a little bit of that? Yeah, yeah. Jason, and so the listeners know what we're talking about.

15:00

Right, right. Yeah, this is actually from churchleaders .com, July 15th, I want to say.

15:06

So they may have brushed through some of it and brought up some of your quotes, but I'll just read a few paragraphs here.

15:14

So, although Morgan says the problems with some modern worship music are too numerous for her post, she elaborates on churches such as Elevation and the teachings of Stephen Furtick, pointing to his belief in modalism, which is heresy.

15:29

She adds, as for Bethel, that one should be pretty obvious. Elevation, a North Carolina megachurch, is organized around a vision that founder

15:38

Furtick says he received from God. California -based Bethel Church has been controversial partly because of its focus on supernatural ministry.

15:47

Hillsong, a global megachurch based out of Australia, has faced controversy in recent months.

15:52

Most famously for Hillsong East Coast Pastor Carl Lentz firing due to infidelity, but also for alleged spiritual abuse and for promoting a celebrity culture.

16:04

Former Hillsong Dallas pastors Jess and Reed Bogart have been accused of mishandling church funds, and Hillsong has launched an investigation into allegations of financial abuse that have been levied at the church as a whole.

16:19

So right here, theology matters, Morgan writes. I can't even stress that enough.

16:25

It matters if a song is weak in theology and is not accurately displayed the holiness of our

16:32

God. It matters if churches are spreading a prosperity gospel that is different from the gospel found in scripture.

16:40

It matters that each Sunday churches pay royalties to these churches in order to be able to sing their music, furthering their outreach in their false gospel message.

16:52

That's good. It's so good. So Mackenzie, why does theology matter in worship songs?

16:57

And you're a worship leader, correct? Yes. So why does theology matter?

17:05

Theology matters because in scripture in John 4, 24,

17:11

Jesus says that he commands that we're supposed to worship in spirit and in truth.

17:16

And so we should definitely try and aspire to worship in correct theology to the best of our ability because of our love for him.

17:27

And of course, wouldn't we want to learn about him and how to properly worship him, which he has, there's so many scriptures and verses that God gives a clear account for how he wants to be worshipped, which, you know, can't blame him.

17:42

So I think it's our responsibility to seek that out for what that is. Yeah, it's definitely true.

17:49

I think we've done a few shows on this and we line right up with everything that we just read there.

17:56

I mean, Bethel has taken the supernatural charismania to a different level.

18:03

And I feel like a lot of sheeple have followed that and some of the

18:10

Hillsong stuff, of course, and Elevation. And I think what I'm seeing is a lot of people are just saying, well, what's wrong with that song?

18:21

Like, what does it matter? Why? What does it matter? Like, you listen to Led Zeppelin, you listen to the

18:26

Beatles, you listen to all these, Michael Jackson, whoever. And it's like, yeah, but that's not worship.

18:33

We're talking about being in God's, I mean, we're always in God's presence, but at church, as we're all praising as a body, it's like, this is serious.

18:47

And we need to make it more about all about Him, not about us all the time.

18:54

But yeah. I think what you said, Mackenzie, was so true is like we worship in spirit and in truth, right?

19:01

And that truth has to be rooted in the word of God. And when we start getting off base,

19:06

I saw this meme. I wish I would have saved it. I throw up on our monitor. But it was showing like this cute little dog.

19:12

And it said, you know, like Hillsong and Bethel music. And then it showed this just like mange werewolf looking like teeth bare.

19:19

And I said, you know, but Bethel and Hillsong's theology, like it's hiding behind this thing of like, you know, cute little puppy, cute little puppy.

19:28

And the issue that you see, and maybe you could speak to this too, Mackenzie, because this is what your post talked about is like, yeah, it might not seem like a big deal.

19:36

But if you look at Bethel or you look at like Hillsong and the abuse that they're going through and Bethel and their

19:42

Christian tarot cards and grave soaking and fire tunnels and, you know, new ageism and all this stuff.

19:47

And then you look at elevate is elevator elevation. Is it elevation?

19:52

Okay. Yeah. And just his, his, you know, Christ can't overcome your belief and kenosis theory and Christ emptied himself a deity and modalism and all these things.

20:01

It's like, yeah, clearly you can either say the worship music they're creating is affecting their theology or the theology is going to affect you through the worship music.

20:09

It's like one in the same. You can't really separate the two. Right. Yeah. And so for your personal journey,

20:15

Mackenzie, was it, was it, you were singing those songs and then looking at the churches that those songs are coming out of and kind of looking at their leadership and going, well, wait a minute.

20:25

Their theology doesn't line up with what these songs say, or was there particular things in the songs, words, or phrases in the songs that set off a red flag?

20:35

What was it for you that first got you thinking about this? Yeah, it was honestly a number of years ago where I could just discern.

20:43

I believe that something was wrong, but, and I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know the severity of the situation.

20:51

I don't think up until like really a couple years ago, or maybe honestly at the beginning of last year when the world started unfolding before our eyes, you know, that encouraged a lot more study and a lot more time to study.

21:08

But even before that, there was a process of really studying these churches based on not so much the songs, but more so the effects of the whole like worship leader environment and the stigma around that.

21:28

And mainly also the seeker sensitive movement, which I'm pretty familiar with in a lot of different churches that I've grown up in and led worship in and stuff.

21:39

And seeing that the things that were being used for worship, just it wasn't able to promote a authentic worship experience.

21:51

And it just was all around an experience and it all was just seeming very formulated to me and it felt like emotional manipulation.

21:59

And I was like, literally on stage felt like I was just performing and I was being honestly encouraged to people who had good hearts and such, but you know, the tactics that were being used, it just wasn't able to promote really authentic worship, even for me to be able to lead it.

22:19

So that was where my convictions really led. Okay. I started researching the churches, you know, because churches are modeled after those churches.

22:28

So, you know, what do they believe and then discovering like, okay, well, their theology is really whack.

22:34

So, so then it just kept getting worse and worse and then, you know, kenosis, modalism, ah, what do you do?

22:43

So, yeah, it's been a journey, but a good one. Yeah. There, there's so many hymns out there that,

22:50

I mean, I just love the lyric, you know, I mean from amazing grace to it as well to, you know, something like be thou my vision

23:01

I'm looking at right now. I mean, it's, it's like these, these lyrics, is there someone out there with a horn?

23:07

Someone's got a little bike horn outside. That's all right. If you guys hear that, that's all that is.

23:15

It's not Greg making fun of me the whole time. Right. Yeah, no,

23:22

I, I mean, I think that there is a distinction between a theological hymn and a newer song that is just the me gospel over and over, you know, and, and this, this, this trance stuff

23:39

I think is, is there's, there's something that we see now in the church where people go into more of a trance when, when they're, when they're doing praise and worship.

23:52

And it's like, man, I think that there is a line that we're crossing in, in certain churches where, you know, this is, this is becoming something that is,

24:04

I really don't, I really don't think that it's supposed to be there, you know? So the focus isn't on God.

24:10

Like we were talking with, was it Chris Huff? We were talking about worship a little bit and he was saying like anything that you do and the focus isn't on God, well, then that that's essentially an idol.

24:21

And I would say too, to anyone listening and tell me how you guys feel about this too. I'm not like a hymns or a Psalm only guy.

24:26

I don't, I don't have anything against contemporary Christian music because you got to realize the hymns of the day, the ones that we sing from the 16th, 17th, 18th century, those were put to old bar tunes.

24:38

The Puritans who sang Psalms were like, you heathens, they were the Hillsong songs of the day.

24:44

Like, how are you singing old bar tunes and pubs and putting it to, you know, these words, amazing grace, and it is well with my soul.

24:51

So it's like, I want to look at it in the total trajectory of that. I think,

24:57

I think it's really comes down to the words and the intent of what it's trying to say for me. Yeah. The tune, not so much the, the, the chords, maybe not so much, maybe not even the arrangement, not so much.

25:08

I'm looking at what is it saying when I'm worshiping Christ? Right. I mean, I, you know, whenever you think about music though, back in the day,

25:18

Bach, think about that. He was writing that for God or for the

25:24

King. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, but you know, it's, it's like these, these musicians were top notch, you know?

25:32

And now it's like, you know, and, and I mean, I might anger some people with this, but you know what,

25:39

GCD, you know, that's, that's fine. You know, play as much as you can. And if, if that's all you have in your church is somebody that plays

25:47

GCD. Amen. Oh, the chords. Oh yeah. Yeah. Sorry. The chords. Yeah. GCD.

25:53

If you could play GCD, you can pretty much play every song in the hymnal and every country song and every pop tune and that, and that, you know, that works, but you know, there there's something about excellence as well in theology, in music.

26:08

Sure. You know, and whenever we're doing this for a living and Holy God, you know, like, like,

26:15

I mean, it's, it's like great. You can sing a run. Congratulations. But you know, like, like what are you saying?

26:23

You know, you're not on American idol right now. Let's let's do something. Are you cross the spectrum on music?

26:28

I mean, do you worship with Psalms and hymns and modern music and everything across it or, or what's your take on that Mackenzie?

26:34

Yeah. I don't think the genre or the style necessarily matters. It's about what it says, you know, and of course in church, it helps more so if it's congregational and singing, but yeah, we, we do a mix of things.

26:50

We do hymns, the Psalms contemporary stuff. We love sovereign grace music and city of light.

26:57

You know, Shane and Shane and, and the Gettys and, you know, Yeah. So getting back to this

27:06

Facebook post, what was the fallout? Because I think I saw a, I saw a blog post or a news article and it said basically for how many times it was shared, it was like over 5 million views or something people had like basically read this.

27:20

So what has been the fallout since July of you know, this worship leader that was relatively unknown.

27:25

And if you're well known, I'm sorry, I apologize. You weren't on my radar before this, no offense if you were, but it seemed like relatively like exploded.

27:35

Like it was like millions of people were looking at it. Like it got national attention in the Christian community. Like what has been the fallout of that?

27:43

Has it been mostly support? Has it been like, you don't know what you're talking about and you need to be quiet. Like how has it been?

27:50

It has been about 50, 50. I, it could be a little more on the end of support though, just because the outpouring of messages and just comments that I received that were nonetheless, just so encouraging.

28:08

And from people that were discerning like the same things and like, like maybe they couldn't put their exact words to it, but like it hit home with them.

28:16

Like it was relatable in the way that they had felt that way too. And they just didn't know exactly how to go about it or like what was really wrong.

28:26

So that was encouraging. And then people that just flat out agreed. But of course there is, you know, a lot of backlash and people that definitely got offended by it, but you know, that I expected more people to get offended than actually did.

28:41

I expected way more backlash just because of the nature of the conversation. So. Yeah, absolutely.

28:47

And then that kind of leads me into the next part is, you know, we had geez,

28:52

I think a year ago, just when we were a couple months old, Dr. Sam storms came on the podcast and we talked to eschatology and he's pretty well -known within his circle of theology and things like that.

29:02

I didn't see that coming at all. When I saw that a few weeks later, whenever it was him coming out and basically taking your post head on,

29:10

I went, well, one thing all you did is he just made the post more widespread by just adding, you know, his flavor to it.

29:18

And I just didn't see it coming from him. And I can tell you as someone, and I don't know, maybe

29:24

Jason, you can agree if you've seen this, we've seen some real pushback from the reformed community on our end with just them going,

29:32

Whoa, Dr. Sammy boy, like, what are you doing here? Like how, you know, we've been preaching against, you know, calling out essentially the elevation and the

29:42

Bethel. And then it's like, you know, he says in his response to you, like, Oh, she's worried about, you know, royalties going there and this, that, and then tries to make a case at all.

29:50

No, they still have really good theology and it's okay to sing their songs. Yeah. That was a crazy thing to me to see.

29:57

And I mean, what was your thoughts on that Mackenzie? When you saw someone like a Sam storms taking you kind of basically head on in national media.

30:06

Yeah. Honestly, I have to be honest. I did not know his name.

30:12

I think I'd heard his name, but I really had, I researched once the article was out and I had seen it on Facebook.

30:21

I believe just, seeing how much notoriety he had and influence that he had and, you know, just digesting who he was.

30:31

And I was very surprised, especially since yeah, he's really well -known in the reform community as well.

30:41

And just brief read through the article and I just thought it was very strange not to be mean.

30:49

And just, it just really was very hard to read because it just didn't make a lot of sense.

30:56

This is what he was saying. It was just a big contradiction just from just reading it.

31:02

So I don't know, but you know, it was very interesting to see that someone was that with that much notoriety was, you know, taking it head on and, and yeah, you just had to sit there and be like, okay.

31:18

Yeah. Yeah. You have, I have it here and I just want to give my two cents real quick before we read this is

31:24

I just felt like for someone who is so, you know, he has done debates and he's wrote papers and responses and books and, you know, it seemed very contradictory, just like you said, he's usually very, you know, accurate and by the point and logical.

31:39

And it was just, you know, like this, he says, be assured of this and no way do I endorse or turn a blind eye to the scandals that have rocked

31:46

Hillsong in recent days. This is Dr. Sam storms in his post about McKenzie's post. In no way do

31:51

I endorse certain ministry methods that are employed at a variety of churches that artificially stir up emotions as an end of themselves or manipulate people into behaviors or experiences that lack biblical sanction.

32:00

Every church, be it Bethel Hillsong or Bridgeway, as well as including refined church in Tennessee. That's where McKenzie leads worship at needs to labor more vigorously to tether our teachings and practices to the inspired word of God.

32:13

He goes on to say, you know, all the things that have happened at Hillsong, I don't endorse that. But then later on, he basically says, he further affirms, you know, he goes in and I know about the, you know, the, the false theology that Stephen Furtick's been accused of and all these things.

32:28

And then at the very end, he goes up. But when I look at their statement on their website, it says, God is fully man and fully

32:35

God. So we're all good. Keep singing their songs. And I was very disappointed in that because it's like, okay, we can look at a website of what their statement is.

32:43

What is the, what is the preacher saying? What is the shepherd leading his flock to week after week?

32:48

And boy, if you want to pull video clips of Stephen Furtick, of Bill Johnson, of some of these guys, you know, what they've actually said on stage and twist scripture.

32:59

That's a totally different story. Right. You know, and I was kind of disappointed. Like McKenzie was saying is there's lots of contradictions in there.

33:06

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It, it surprised me when you told me about Dr. Storm saying what he had said,

33:13

I I'm pretty sure that he was involved with IHOP for a while though, with Dr. Bickel. Right.

33:19

Was he? Bickel to pickle? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, man,

33:24

I mean, I mean, it's, it's like, you know, in some ways you're, you're kind of taken back, but man,

33:29

I, I don't know what's happening in the church right now because we're, we're seeing a lot of things happening.

33:38

I mean, the church is shutting down until 2023 or whatever, you know,

33:44

I mean, all these, these crazy things happening. And I mean, I truly still believe that Christ is sitting at the right hand of the father, putting all of his enemies under his feet.

33:55

Right. And I mean, we need to call out these, these crazy teachings and these, these crazy tunes as well.

34:07

I mean, if that's what you want to call them, you know, it's like, I don't want to call it a worship tune because some of it just isn't.

34:12

Yeah. You know, some of those get under my skin too. It's like, you know, he's running after me and it's like,

34:18

Oh darn, if God could just catch up to me, it's almost like, it's like, like Christ is standing in the corner going.

34:24

Please. Can you, can you please, you know, just come over and pick me for the fire, fall down, just call it a fire.

34:32

Yeah. I mean, it's like, gosh, stop singing that. Well, we're seeing the fire fall right now.

34:41

There's definitely a lot of judgment going on, but but yeah, I mean, it's, we're, we're living in a different time for sure.

34:46

What, but what I was going to ask both of you and I know this is on the spot. It might be something that might be hard to, to answer, but something that I've been wondering, you know, we've had, we've had a few shows about this now.

35:01

How do we move, you know, out of this space? How do we stop just talking about this subject, you know, and, and like moving, moving forward and, you know, just, just really having a real conversation rather than just like, there's progressive

35:23

Christians, there's reform, there's charismatic, you know, like we, like at some point we all have to realize what scripture says about worship.

35:32

You know, and what the scriptures say about God and how he is God. And we are not many gods and all the, these different crazy doctrines that are out there, you know?

35:44

But yeah, but anyway, what, how, how do you, how would you, do you guys think we move forward from here?

35:50

I'm going to jump in really quick because I'm going to toss it over to McKenzie. I think what she did is part of what we do.

35:56

What, why she's on this podcast tonight is part of what we do. It's like you preach the gospel, you speak truth, you post it on Facebook to your 200 friends and truth always resonates.

36:06

You don't have to have a huge platform when you speak truth. God's word does not go out void. So what

36:11

McKenzie did is she spoke truth. And next thing, you know, 5 million people, national news media, and everyone's picking it up.

36:17

And our little audience here, we want to make sure she's, you know, she's exposed to them so they can hear it.

36:22

We have listeners and followers that do the same thing, but I think this is part of it. Remember, we didn't get into this yesterday.

36:28

This has been a 30, 40, 50 year social slip for the church right now. And it might be that long to get out.

36:35

Yeah. It might be that long to get out, but what do you think McKenzie? Yeah, I think we just keep fighting for truth and preaching the gospel, making the truth known and not being afraid to rock the boat.

36:49

If the Lord wants us to. And I believe that if we're doing the right thing, advancing the kingdom, that you're going to step on some toes, not meaning to be, you know, divisive, but, you know, truth divides and, you know, it's to separate the, you know, the true church from the not true church.

37:11

So I just think it takes time and consistency, but, you know, the Lord, he prevails and he's sovereign and he has it all worked out.

37:21

Yeah. So I just want, as we wrap up here, I wanted to mention what Jason was talking about, too.

37:27

Like we're in a weird time with like the church shutdowns and stuff, but we're also seeing like some pretty solid leaders fall prey to that kind of progressive

37:34

Christianity, like bowing to the culture. Like we have our little McKenzie post going right now with Tim Keller.

37:41

He, we posted a meme of him congratulating the atheist chaplain at Harvard.

37:46

He commented on it to, to us. It was like, well, this is why I voted for him and congratulated him.

37:51

And he posted an article and the article did not make it any better. Yeah. It actually made his point worse. And it's like, well, what's going right now that's got 80 ,000 views or a hundred thousand views on our

38:01

Facebook page. You can go look at it at dead men, walking podcasts on Facebook and Instagram. But it's just like, dude, 15 years ago,

38:08

Tim Keller was like solidly. And I want to say conservative because that word has been politicized, but biblical, like, like biblical on, on certain issues.

38:16

And now we're to the point to where he's like, Hey, congratulations, atheist chaplain of Harvard. Right. You're my buddy and I voted for you.

38:23

And it's like, what? Yeah. Those two don't share the same worldview, right? I mean, we can be friendly, right?

38:29

We don't go up and smack an atheist in the face. No, we can be friendly with them, but we should, we should not be partnering with them in interfaith organizations.

38:36

Right. What faith do they have? Yeah. Sorry. I'm getting, it goes to your point of what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, man.

38:43

I mean, it, it's, it's a wild time that we're living in for sure. And just like McKenzie said, we got to speak truth and we, we don't, we can't, you know, worry about the repercussions of somebody not liking our

38:54

Facebook post. Oh, darn. Okay. Christ said, if you're not for me, you're against me. Right.

39:00

So, I mean, we, we, we are for Christ. We're for truth. And you know, if we need to have conversations with people and, and you know what,

39:07

I mean, sometimes I'm sure we're off somewhere as well. And we need to be corrected as well, but Hey, yeah,

39:13

I know. Right. But Hey, but you know what, let's have that conversation, but let's, let's speak in truth.

39:20

Let's let's use the word and yeah, not divide. Preach brother. Amen. McKenzie, give us a couple of minutes and throw out your social media.

39:29

Tell where people tell people where they can get ahold of you or check you out or see you worship or anything like that.

39:35

Yeah. I'm on pretty much every social media. I'm on Facebook, McKenzie Morgan and Instagram, the

39:42

McKenzie Morgan. I'm most active on those. My church and I actually were just starting a podcast all on worship and centered all on true biblical worship and, and going into the history of worship and breaking down modern worship songs.

39:59

And, you know, we have lots of ideas and topics that we can talk about for days, but that will actually be out on this week on Tuesday.

40:09

So it'll be our first episode and we're just hoping God grows it. And, you know, we, as the church, our church specifically, we felt led to create an outlet since so many people had so many questions and I couldn't get back to every, every one of them, like I had said,

40:25

I was going through my posts. So, you know, we thought we'd make a podcast on it. So we're working on that and you know, just doing it.

40:33

What's the name of the podcast? Throw it out there. It's called he and she, he and she, and you're going to be hosting it.

40:39

Yeah. Me and my pastor's wife. We, we do the worship at our church, so we will be tag teaming it and we're doing it together.

40:48

So. Awesome. Awesome. That's so cool. Well, we're going to wrap it up here,

40:54

Mackenzie. Thank you so much for taking time out, coming on, talking about this issue that we find near and dear to our heart because it's near and dear to God's heart.

41:03

Yeah, right. We, it's just, it's something that we do talk about often, but we try to approach it from different angles, but it's still the, like you said,

41:13

Jason, like when are we going to get to that next thing of like, okay, we need to leave that the old stuff behind, like Paul says, the baby stuff and let's get into the maturity of Christ and the sanctification and the word and all those things.

41:25

Right. But guys, we thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for sharing the, I don't know why the heck the

41:31

Tim Keller post blew up before he even. Comment. I was like, you just never know on social media.

41:36

You're like, what? You know, I got up the next morning. I'm like 200 ,000 people are talking about it. Right. So thank you for sharing that.

41:42

Thank you for the comments on our webpage and dmwpodcast .com

41:48

and Apple. You guys are always leaving us positive reviews. That always helps. Make sure you tell a friend about the podcast.

41:53

And as always, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook and all those websites, website, and all that stuff.

42:01

If Instagram is where we do a lot of stuff too, probably where we're most popular. All the links are in there, but guys, it's been amazing.

42:08

The response you have given us, we've been looking over kind of the listeners and the views and a lot of stuff in the middle

42:14

East is really popular. Yeah. Kazakhstan, number one podcast there.

42:19

So we're thankful. We're thankful. And we want to minister. And yeah, this is, this is about God, however the

42:25

Lord wants to do it. Right. Glorifying God through this. So guys, we thank you so much, Jason. Anything before?

42:30

No, it's awesome. All right, guys, as always, God bless. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at dead men, walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips, or email us at dead men, walking podcast at gmail .com.