Durbin & Dr. White Respond to a Mormon

Apologia Studios

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00:39

Greetings and welcome to the dividing line. It is a Thursday and we have a tremendous amount of stuff to get to I mentioned on Twitter and Facebook Yesterday that I would be joined in studio by a special guest

00:54

And I'm not sure that someone who's filled in for him before is really, you know, all that guesty but I Am joined of course as most of you probably guessed especially since I mentioned we were going to be reviewing this particular video by none other than the ninja himself

01:14

Jeff Durbin and There's Jeff hiding over in the corner. He's not really hiding. Hey guys but I Was gonna say, you know in the past I have introduced you as a pastor of Apologia Church It's a little bit weirder this time around this first time

01:32

I've been on since things have changed That's right fellow elder now. Yep. Yep. Yeah fellow pastor

01:38

Is that who is this more surreal for you or me? Me, I think probably me me.

01:45

Yeah. Yeah Is it weird for you? None of us saw it coming.

01:52

None of us saw it coming. No, no, but I mean, you know You and Luke started

01:57

About 10 years ago, but technically 12 years ago Apologia Christian Ministries.

02:03

It's morphed into Apologia Church. Okay, right? Yeah, right so But looking down the road, this wasn't really no never no

02:12

It was just survival at the beginning. Oh Yeah, but you know nine months ago, yeah never would have thought no no if you did

02:22

Yeah, I've thought about if you would have gone back and told 18 year old me that it would look like this I would never have believed you as in now.

02:29

It's not that's impossible. That's that's a joke You think you think about everything and what the

02:35

Lord does and you just go not couldn't have ever worked out that way Yeah, that's why it's really good that only

02:40

God knows the future and we don't that's right Cuz that would be could you imagine we would mess it up angst and everything we would have if we

02:47

I'm gonna do what? You're gonna ask me to go where yeah, yeah Yeah, or we would try to manipulate it along the way if we knew the future.

02:53

Yeah, what a mess what a mess, but but especially I Don't remember exactly when it started, but we've both commented to each other.

03:04

I don't know how many times that we will travel around the United States, but Overseas as well.

03:10

Yeah, and So far, I've still done more of the overseas stuff doing a lot more of the overseas stuff

03:17

But anywhere I go Australia and South Africa and Russia and Ukraine and The Netherlands the

03:27

United Kingdom Germany, etc, etc You you speak a lion forms afterwards you're signing books you're taking selfies you're talking to people and When names are mentioned, mm -hmm, it goes one of two directions

03:46

I Watch apologia and Jeff Durbin and that's how I found out about you or Yep, I found out about Jeff Durbin from watching you yep, and of course

03:57

YouTube does part of that because it Seemingly connects us together on the on the side.

04:03

Yeah, because we've done so much stuff together anyways, but it's just it's everywhere that's just Everyone just sees that and when we started talking about this and talking about even just going to apology

04:16

It was like you'll you you have to testify I I met with all the elders and I said having me as a member of church is not the easiest thing

04:24

Yeah, and not so much because I cause problems as I just bring my own set with me Including lots of people who really really really don't like me.

04:33

The only person I know of That is disliked more and I'm stuck including

04:39

President Trump Is Doug Wilson? Yeah, okay He's his his derangement quotients way way beyond either one of them.

04:47

He's also a good friend of ours well, and there you go, so But I said it does seem the same people who hate me or the same people hate you

04:54

So it's not like we're really adding that's why it's a match made in heaven because it's not like we're not used to it We're it's like no big deal.

04:59

It's just you know, oh, hey, you see what Steven Anderson said. Hey Sort of works that way.

05:05

Yeah, so but yeah, and then you know, it was sort of natural as soon as soon as started tending

05:12

I Don't sit in the back real well, you know and just yeah Just show up and do nothing.

05:18

And so we were I Just sort of started, you know, you're gonna ask we're gonna talk to each other and there's gonna be interaction

05:26

And it just you know one thing led to another or you're if you're gifted as a pastor It's gonna naturally it's gonna happen organically gonna happen organically.

05:34

So so With in light of that one of the first positive things that has come from that I think

05:43

Was I'm in studio in London at premier Christian radio, yeah on Chapter Street just matter of blocks from where I was staying and I get done doing two programs of Justin Brierley and He says so who would you suggest

06:04

I have on with Andy Stanley? Now, I think I mentioned you part of what was in the back of my interpretation of what

06:11

Justin said was and it can't be you Yeah, right Because I don't want to scare him off completely right, you know type of an idea

06:21

And so he I think it was when we just finished the two. I don't think it was beforehand. But yeah, it was toward the end and so first thought across my mind

06:31

I'm like Hmm good opportunity here and I think Jeff would handle this really really well

06:37

So well my fellow elder and I think I'd helped not some guy I know in Phoenix But you know fellow pastor and apology at church and I think it was the next day that I got the email from him

06:50

Could I could you give me Jeff's contact information? I think he wrote to both of us at the same time and he cc'd me on it

06:56

So I don't think I would have happened if we didn't have that that connection, right? Right so that took place

07:03

We know it was the last Thursday. We go today. Yeah, that's right. We go really early this really early. Yeah.

07:09

Yeah 430 I'm fairly early early for me. Yeah Yeah, he's Eastern time zone so You got a little more time.

07:16

Yeah. Yeah, exactly, but it comes out the 29th Some I can

07:23

I 9th or 30th something somewhere around there somewhere on there. So we've got about another week

07:29

And it'll drop but you've done you did an apology radio thing where you basically went over your notes

07:35

Yeah, yeah, nothing maybe didn't get to get to or things like that But just briefly before we get to the the main course here

07:46

What did you think So, um, I thought I thought it went really well As well as it can as it can be when you're talking on a computer in front of a webcam

07:58

And there's crossover at times and it was 430 in the morning and and I thankfully

08:04

God blessed it I had I was tired, but I have I was coherent We have late schedules at apologia because we're always counseling like this week

08:12

We've had over a dozen counseling sessions just between Zach and I that's that's where that's where I'm different Yeah, I'm the

08:18

I'm the early morning guy. Yes saying goodnight to all you guys as you're just getting go as we're just getting going

08:23

That's right. So when I know some people probably even my brothers and sisters that apology other like what's the big deal?

08:30

Like my husband gets up at 430 like to do whatever It's just that our schedules are so reversed because we're doing stuff all day long

08:35

And then you know We have people coming in because it's the only time they can come in for counseling Late six seven eight o 'clock at night.

08:41

Sometimes we'll be we'll be driving home from counseling at 1130 at night So we are we have late schedules at times and so getting up at 3 30 a .m

08:49

To do a discussion like this was like, I don't know how this is gonna work, but it was it was good

08:55

I was I was I was tired, but I could I could communicate with them and we had a good time in terms of good reaction

09:01

Good interaction with each other. It was gracious. It was respectful towards one another Justin helps to find us.

09:08

He is I'm intimate interviewer. He truly excellent what he does.

09:13

There's no question about that. I think he's one of the best I've ever seen do something like this especially because you know, he has his own view

09:20

Yeah, that's the thing you've got to give to Justin is there as many times I've been in a conversation on unbelievable where I I knew he didn't say it, but I know enough after all these years.

09:33

I knew he wouldn't be on my side Yeah, but he was always permanently fair very fair.

09:38

He's the best at it. And so It was supposed to as far as I understood even when we started there was about an hour planned and right

09:46

There was a lot of subjects we tossed out in the beginning like we're gonna get to all these things And I was thinking to myself know how is this gonna happen?

09:53

So we ended up I think I if I remember correctly spending about the first hour on Apologetics and then

10:00

I was like, what are we not going to get to the law of God discussion now? That's kind of the meat of all this because his book

10:06

Irresistible really does does cross over between those two main points. One is the apologetic methodology.

10:12

They're tied in a very unusual Yeah, yeah, and and then the law of God question and just kind of keep going back and forth and then in all his discussions

10:19

It's really been those two main platforms He's arguing from but Justin really wanted to focus in upon the apologetic issue to begin with and then we ended up doing an extended

10:27

Edition, I guess we went I I was done about 630 So that's really unusual about two hours and what he said is the whole thing will be up online

10:35

They're gonna do a condensed version for broadcast over the UK But the first hour again apologetic second hour was law of God questions from my recollection and it was early

10:46

What I remember of you have to watch I'm gonna have to listen to it Yeah, exactly. What did I say exactly for my recollection?

10:53

there wasn't really interaction from Stanley with my wrist my position or my

11:00

My refutation of his claims when he'd make a claim I would give scripture I would try to articulate a position and from what

11:07

I remember of it There was an interaction with what I was trying to communicate to him So he would make a claim and I would respond with a series of texts and an explanation and I I remember the most

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It was more or less well There are a lot of people who take kind of different stabs at this and this is the approach that I'm taking kind of a

11:24

Thing and so it wasn't really interaction getting to the text trying to dissect the position and unpack it

11:31

There wasn't a lot of responsiveness to what I would bring to the table And so I I think it's helpful because at least it'll bring this discussion to the forefront for people to start thinking about it

11:41

Especially in light of the fact that Andy Stanley. I mean his his sermons come on after Saturday Night Live Yeah, I mean he he's broadcast around the world.

11:51

He's got you know a Significant online following enough to where stuff is spread, you know pretty rapidly and I think the claims that he is making about Not only apologetic methodology and the grounding of our faith

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He would deny I think in at least and I think if you asked him Do you accept the self -attesting nature of the

12:12

Word of God? I think you have to say yes to that Biblically, but in actual practice, but then you redefine what self -attest.

12:19

Yeah, then you redefine it in actual practice It really comes to something different in terms of methodology and and it does matter

12:25

It does matter somebody might say like well, you know Is this sort of just you know splitting hairs kind of a thing and it's not splitting hairs

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Because there was even a point in the discussion where we get to the self -attesting nature of the Word of God And I'm really grounding it in Scripture.

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This is what the Word of God says about itself This is how Jesus and the Apostles argued with from the self -attesting nature of the

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Word of God. They assume it from the beginning he actually made a claim in terms of the text of Scripture and he said

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He was afraid to say because the Bible says he doesn't really want Christians to say because the Bible says Which is really what

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I would say right and that God's Word of self -attesting God says, you know There's you can say synonymously.

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God says the Bible says Paul says James says so what he says is and this is critical and I hope people

13:13

Because of the broadcast get into this discussion because it's not a new discussion. It's not that we're just facing this this goes back to the time of the

13:20

Reformation itself in terms of Scripture as self -attesting or does the church give?

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authoritatively the Word of God the authority as the Word of God it really is a reformational conflict and it is therefore also an

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Orthodox get back to the ancient record of the church Conflict because that's what we're trying to get at So what

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I was saying because because the God because God says in his word he was saying no, it's no it's because John was a witness

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John wrote he gave us his testimony Paul gave his testimony with that's what this was

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This wasn't like script they're writing their their Testimonies out and the church comes along later and collects those and says this is our

14:01

Bible. There's a subtle Thing happening there that many people may not recognize and that is what

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I went to with him as I said I said well if you go to the text itself Peter actually addresses what you're talking about when he says about Paul's writing

14:16

He says some things that are hard to understand which unstable men twist to their own destruction He says this in the first century as Paul's writing them as they do the rest of the scriptures

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So as Paul's giving scripture, that's what I'm sorry This is buzzing here as Paul's giving scripture stop calling

14:33

Marcus as Paul as Paul is giving scripture in the first century This is I think this is actually honestly, if you think about it in the context of a

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Jewish culture and mindset, it could really be a nuclear bomb

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For him to say as Paul's writing something They're twisting Paul's writings

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Some things are hard to understand to their own destruction like they do the rest of the scriptures That's the

15:02

Torah and the Tanakh. Mm -hmm Like he is equating in the first century as Paul's giving inspired revelation that is equal to Genesis equal to Deuteronomy Every covenant has its documents and there's a new covenant.

15:13

There's nothing a document. That's right And so what Paul what Peter is demonstrating there in the first century is they didn't take

15:19

Andy's perspective No these are just these are just Documents people are writing and the church is gonna come later and sort of give that the authority as the

15:26

Bible the canon That was that was the same Peter who said I stood on the Mount of Transfiguration.

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I heard God speak I was with God the Son of Man dwelt by God the Holy Spirit, but we have a more sure word of prophecy

15:37

That's exactly right. And I brought that up some soup. It's like yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's really straightforward well,

15:43

I'm I would imagine as a veteran unbelievable participant that Justin can control the direction to some point by the questions he asks and how he asks them and who he asks first so my gut feeling is his interest was primarily in the apologetic issue because He and I have even sort of had a mini debate in the in the studio without the recording going on About the minimal facts approach and stuff like that, which obviously is very much commensurate with where Andy Stanley's coming from Yeah, so I think that's where his primary interest was, but I'm really glad That he had the opportunity to do the other stuff because many times when

16:28

I'm there I mean this last time we were there Me and Abdullah all under Lucy we had to record the beginning and the first 20 minute then leave the studio for someone else to come in and do something and Then come back and finish the program up.

16:42

Oh so The very fact that he would have had the time To do the the more recording that may be because he was in a little studio by himself because he had both of you coming

16:53

In another direction, maybe maybe that's what gave me but I'm just thankful that he took the time to do it Yeah, because it would have been real easy for him to say

17:00

Hey, sorry guys, and then you don't get to the whole thing. So I'm glad it worked out that yeah Yeah, it was it was but I hope it blesses the church most most important thing is it's not so much just a conflict between You know my personal convictions and Andy Stanley and let's just sort of go at it and you know, no big deal

17:18

I think these are foundational things if if we have his perspective on Apologetics how we approach the world and the

17:26

Bible itself I think we're gonna lose the ability to actually speak with authority in in every area and I think we're diminishing the power of Christian witness with his approach not standing on scripture or self -attesting and then the issue don't think he thinks that yeah

17:43

I I just Well now, you know now you've explained it it would be he did say he had been listening to some of your stuff

17:51

He did which I really appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, so I would love to see him continue to do that Yeah, you never know.

17:57

I mean I get the feeling he really thinks this is important in light of the fact He keeps repeating

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I've just met all these people who walked away from the faith walked away from the faith and he says a lot of stuff about his own upbringing mm -hmm in in a negative fashion as it being, you know, and so My my hope would be that he would hear and Use that platform and and maybe you know go, you know what?

18:24

I didn't hadn't really thought all this That's my hope because it goes there were some things that I had brought to his attention with no response

18:31

To that. I'm I'm hoping that it's just something he has not considered. It's we all have our traditions

18:37

We all have our training and there's stuff we need to as we as we grow older and we we get into the

18:42

Word of God we need to start to say I need to re -examine this toss this out. This is not consistent with the text I'm hoping that happens with Andy.

18:49

I think there's a little bit of the emergent church Attitude there in the sense that this was my background

18:57

But it didn't give me what I needed. So I'm getting rid of it And what

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I think of what it's done is it's really narrowed the streams of input into his theology Mm -hmm.

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I don't hear a whole lot of stuff from What we would hope would be balancing perspectives

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It seems like he's looking at just a narrow and till he had to run into you at 7 o 'clock 7 30 in the morning

19:20

His time. Yeah, and hopefully that will love that will do something if we ever do it again I'm gonna demand that we do it at a at a godly hour

19:28

Well, I think the best way to do it is to well remember godly hour in here in Arizona is different than in the

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UK So but it there is a completely different dynamic because I've sat right here and done

19:41

I don't know how many programs and it's it's a completely different dynamic than being in studio. It is it really is

19:47

So I hope I really really hope that I'll be having to give you directions to premiere

19:52

Christian radio How to walk there which tube stations to take and so on so forth In the future so you have the opportunity of doing that but that's just one of the to me that's just one of the positives that I see coming out of where we are now and what we're doing and So I preached.

20:12

Yeah Sunday, right started a series on the Lord's Supper. Yep, and On June 2nd be preaching again out of 1st

20:19

Corinthians chapter 11 I'm but I'm gonna try to be there this

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Sunday. I hope you Appreciate the yes Coming back from Tucson, but I just I don't want get people to get the idea that yeah

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He's one of our elders, but he's only here when he preaches It's not I'm the traveling elder and the elderly elder.

20:40

Yeah, though you are working on a little I'm getting some gray Hairs I've noticed my hair is starting to thin a little more.

20:48

I'm like, oh boy. Yeah. Well, that's the way it works well, anyways That's I want folks to hear from you a little bit about how you felt about how the conversation with Andy Stanley went and obviously we're all really looking forward to it and maybe once it comes out and there's a

21:04

Something tells me there will be multiple blog articles Written on both sides and so maybe when there's some some good

21:14

Interaction and maybe we can talk about it again once there's some stuff to really, you know bite in I think we'll be more useful as if Andy Stanley would be willing to do a moderated public debate

21:24

Yeah That would be much more useful and I think beneficial to both perspectives

21:29

For people to hear both sides and the moderated public debate setting I'd be happy to do something like that I think a lot a lot more useful long term than then the streaming video stuff because you just sometimes have our lives what at one moment

21:42

I do remember is is I Tried to give Andy the ability to speak and then when I would start to talk he would sort of say no no no

21:48

And he would jump in and it was like I was trying to have a hard time figuring out where we at right now And thankfully Justin was like Andy let him talk.

21:55

Okay, so we're able to get through it So I think a moderated debate would actually help a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It has to be a good moderator to Have a little experience on that.

22:05

So anyways, I wanted it wanted to give everybody sort of a preview of that so we're looking at next week sometime probably over next weekend that will drop and So it'd be good to make sure that you get the online video version yes, because the

22:20

Podcast version may be shorter or the one that at least airs on premiere. I'm not sure what's gonna be posted

22:25

I'm not sure. Yeah, you'll be able to tell by looking at it. Yeah, if it's less than an hour, it's not long enough.

22:31

Yeah Because it was definitely longer. So yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay, so with that Totally shifting gears here.

22:40

I haven't been watching the the Twitter stream because it's on the other side here Okay I'm catching what

22:49

Rich is doing in the other room. I guess he figures he can talk about stuff because I don't get a chance to look this direction, but anyway, um, a

23:00

Video came out. I think did you send it to me first? You sent it to me? Did I okay?

23:05

then somebody then then somebody must have sent it to me and When did we do

23:13

When last year did we have our little get -together? After my seizure my short my short -term memory is just blown it really is

23:33

Anyway Sometime last year and it was it wasn't all that Early in the year because it was after I had gotten my

23:43

Greek text from Jeffrey So because we had Jeffrey do that real nice August 31st, so it was at the end of August of last year

23:53

We Now is he still using the three Mormons thing?

23:58

I have not seen him on that He may he may be but I've been seeing the stuff.

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He's been doing on his own channel on his own channel. Yeah so Kwaku L Which only after our lengthy discussion on Was that an apology or radio episode it was yeah,

24:20

I think Obviously over the studios That's when

24:26

I discovered that he's actually head of the Young Democrats at BYU. Yeah, and I started getting that feeling we were talking beforehand

24:37

So I Described him as a neo -mormon Yesterday in telling folks we're gonna look at a video.

24:46

He had just put out and it's it's not because he is wildly unorthodox as a

24:52

Mormon it's that he represents a neo a new form of Mormonism that That I can say that even more strongly than you because I was dealing with Mormons back when

25:06

Mormons were still quoting Bruce R. McConkie as a living authority and going rah rah rah

25:13

Bruce R McConkie and I haven't ran into anybody doing that in a long long time. I have not either So we're talking about back when

25:20

Mormons really believed Mormonism and He Would not have survived at BYU with Bruce R.

25:30

McConkie there. No way No way the perspectives

25:35

Well, you know We all know what happened at the graduation a few weeks ago when one of the valedictorians comes out and announces he's homosexual

25:44

There in his speech at Brigham Young University, and there's no repercussions

25:50

He's congratulated There's a there's there Quaker represents a seed change.

25:58

Mm -hmm. And Once there are enough Quakers in the general authorities

26:06

What's Mormonism gonna look like yeah, that's really That's what

26:11

I'm thinking about and yet he represents a strange admixture because so many of these

26:17

Mormons today are like Well, you know all that all that Eternal law of progression stuff and things like that.

26:28

You know, we don't know, you know And he does have a little bit of that but but he talks theology

26:33

That's what this whole video was about and so many of the others just you know, but I have a testimony

26:39

This makes me feel good that the data so I Don't know where he's gonna end up right ten years from now.

26:47

Yeah, but it just seems to me that a lot of Mormons are Faced with a with a choice right now

26:54

You can either try to remake Mormonism into something that you can live with in light of its actual history in light of Joseph Smith's polygamy and Now we're now we're publishing pictures of the seer stone and right, you know dealing with all that kind of stuff

27:12

Or there's a backdoor and Given the numbers that they announced at the general conference while you guys were up there in April That backdoor seems to be fairly substantial right now.

27:23

Yes I mean the numbers right now growth -wise in comparison to what they were in the 1980s are

27:31

Minuscule. Mm -hmm. I mean, it's still a big big big group Relatively speaking, but both

27:37

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism are really struggling in this secular the secular world and Mormonism I think more so simply because it it has inherent in it a subjectivism that just The the secular world is like poison to it.

27:51

Mm -hmm, and they they just don't know how to deal with it Yeah, and I did a free access to information today is annihilating the the efforts missionary efforts of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses those two main groups have so tried to protect their people for so long

28:08

From being able to get access to information and don't look at it I was just we're baptizing an ex

28:14

Jehovah's Witness on Sunday. He was Jehovah's Witness for decades Faithful Jehovah's Witness and One of the things we were talking about yesterday was that it was so hard for him

28:24

And this is I think a critical part of this where this is all happening now. It was so hard for him He said when he started actually,

28:31

I mean, you knew it was wrong. And even when he had acknowledged this is all wrong

28:36

I know it is even going to online go online to find information in the research. He was terrified

28:42

That's fair. He was so fearful because he was it was demonized You're not allowed to look at this even when he knew it was wrong.

28:49

This is something is wrong with this He couldn't do it. He had to shake that loose and he's had struggles with it

28:55

Because he was it was burned into him. This is from the devil. This is Antichrist. Don't read this stuff You're not allowed to well

29:01

There's there's much of that in Mormonism historically even when I first started going to the Mormon Temple if I tried to hand somebody

29:08

Some information to say well look at this they would immediately go. Wait, what is that? And that's why I love this book. Where does it say that right because this was their information?

29:17

So these I would say these are photocopies of your documents. These are this is lectures of faith This is this course is history of the church.

29:23

Don't worry. This is an anti and the fact we started They knew what Journal of Discourses was. Yes. Now you have to explain that.

29:30

Yeah, exactly and so I think with the free access to information now people can just pop online and a video comes up and you can start

29:36

Hearing about the history of Joseph Smith false prophecies doctrinal things people will see your videos my videos come up interaction with Latter -day

29:44

Saints and They'll just sit and listen. Oh, they're Oh Mormon versus pastor they'll click on that and now they've got an hour and a half of conversation between Sorry more missionaries and and a

29:55

Christian that they get to listen to just sort of you know We're standing there birds -eye view And so that sort of thing happens now and it's easy access to all this stuff

30:04

And so I think it's creating it's doing a lot of damage So I obviously I don't know I don't I can't say this with certainty

30:09

But I think with the free access to information and all that's out there and available now The church has seemed to change since the internet has done what it's done

30:18

It's changed in its methodology and approach to the world where now they have to just sort of come out with stuff say yeah

30:24

This this is true. We have this stuff and here it is and that you know all this yeah, that's true and it's and and sort of it's had to Get them to a place where they're sort of like yielding to yeah.

30:33

Oh, that's true Yeah, and you know, but we but we love our neighbor Exactly, and we're Christians and you know

30:39

And so that's where I think you have to get to a point where people have to sort of say We've got to accept this really bad history.

30:45

That's really convoluted theology There's really contradictory statements and that will get people to a place where you go.

30:50

Well, you know, yeah, he's a prophet But you know, he's just a man and I don't have to accept everything. He says why well because when you take

30:58

Brigham Young's Statements which he calls scripture with Joseph Smith's and you see the conflict or you see these

31:06

Really strange teachings from a prophet like Brigham Young and you just gotta say Orson Pratt Orson Pratt You just have to get to the point you go.

31:13

Yeah, I know he's a prophet, but you know, he's just a man I don't have to accept everything he has to say. It's a really that how

31:18

I approach this text, you know It's just a document. I'm objects of everything. It says that was one of the things

31:24

I found interesting in this video And I'm not gonna be showing the video I've got the audio and if we don't get into it, we're never getting done.

31:31

Yeah. Yeah, but That's one of the things I found interesting is he starts off with a really standard

31:40

Attempt to make the Athanasian Creed sound crazy because it doesn't give you any of the background He's not interpreting it within the context of which it was written.

31:48

He doesn't even try And that's I've seen Muslims do it. I've seen Jehovah's Witnesses do it.

31:54

I've seen atheists do it I've seen one that's Pentecostals do it. Here's a Mormon doing it It certainly would therefore indicate for example to our homeschool

32:04

Our homeschool parents who watch this all the time I mean people send pictures all the time on Twitter of the homeschool kids gathered around the thing during the dividing right, right

32:14

So one of the things I would strongly recommend For our homeschool folks is to make sure your kids understand

32:20

What the context and background of the Athanasian Creed was so they can detect this kind of stuff because I Have now

32:27

I've found all these groups doing this exact thing. Yeah, this exact thing Let me illustrate what this exact thing is.

32:34

Let's say let's get to something here For those playing a dividing line bingo, this will help you which with whatever column you're on Because I am going to mention that I am playing this slightly faster at one point to I Just like to tell people

32:57

I'm doing that so they don't accuse me of editing things But let me let me run through part of this.

33:03

Oh I can't hear anything Okay, we caught we caught rich asleep in the other room, okay, so He's complaining because he has to go back and forth in the television shots.

33:16

Yeah me. So, you know, okay, let's try it again No, evangelical Christians Protestants Catholics Eastern Orthodoxy Sunday Adventist Jehovah's Witnesses The majority of Christianity does not accept what we believe they totally think we're wrong in this regard

33:28

And it's totally cool for them to think that now by the way It's totally cool for them to think that how many pages of that right?

33:35

There would be statements from leaders saying it's not totally cool, right? They believe that it's it's apostasy

33:42

It's a rejection of the latter -day revelation blah blah blah, but that's the neo part. Yes, that's the hey

33:47

It's totally cool. If you believe it, yeah, it's fine. You know, that's not what LDS leaders have believed for a very very very long time

33:54

Yeah, yeah, Joseph Smith calling Try trying to express the

33:59

Trinity and calling it a wonderfully big God a giant or a monster or a monster. Yeah That's good. Well, he is gonna say it doesn't make any sense here in a second

34:07

Yeah, but so here's here is Kwaku L trying to make the Athanasian Creed sound as silly as possible

34:14

In fact, what I'm gonna do I'm gonna kick it up one more So those of you who listen really fast, this could be sound really really fast, but this is a long section

34:21

But I want you to it's still clear. Don't worry about if it's bad. I'll slow it down But here's trying to make the

34:27

Athanasian Creed sound silly and to start off I'm gonna quote the Athanasian Creed if you grew up Protestant or Catholic and converted

34:32

You should probably know what the Athanasian Creed is If you don't know what the Athanasian Creed is It's essentially a declaration of faith by some

34:37

Christian church fathers a long time ago and it totally has influenced Christianity today And you'll definitely it's a little bit more than just simply nothing to early church fathers

34:46

Now this is the Catholic faith. And by the way, this is Catholic. That means universal This isn't believed by only those who part of the Holy Roman Catholic and apostolic

34:51

Church It's those who are Catholic in the sense that the word Catholic is universal So the universal body of Christ as espoused by Christians that we worship one

35:00

God in Trinity and the Trinity in unity Neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence persons

35:07

Essence. Mm -hmm two different words. Mm -hmm person is not essence Mm -hmm As long as I understand we're talking about person and being here being one being of God three divine persons

35:16

We're not equating them. The Creed does not equate them Anybody who tries to make this sound confusing will equate them at some point.

35:24

They may do so Surreptitiously, they may do so even by the look of their face or the tone of their voice

35:30

But that's what they're gonna have to do worship one God. They believe in Trinity So Trinity is trying so in three and they don't blend the persons and they don't divide so it's important to know they do

35:39

Divide the what? substance exactly the substance essence being of God and so by Simply refusing the distinction that the

35:49

Creed itself makes that's how we create and that's the main problem I had to begin with here is that he quotes the

35:55

Creed he quotes those those distinctions that are made there and between person and Drums or essence and then he just drops it and tries to and tries to call out a confusion in it

36:06

It's like well you read it Kwaku And that's the part that's the problem I have with how

36:11

Kwaku is approaching these things is that it's there's not a lot of integrity Behind it. It's not the first time he's been corrected.

36:18

That's the problem is that he's been corrected He should know the truth by now and if he had enough integrity and respect for the other side

36:25

He would try to accurately represent the other side to say this is what they actually believe and then interact with that Not try to find confusion within a caricature that he creates right and and see

36:37

We don't have to do that to Mormonism right we can quote their own materials we can use their own language

36:43

We can lay it out just as their leaders have laid it out, and they can disagree with our conclusions, but we can accurately represent

36:51

What Mormonism teaches the fact I'll never forget rich was with me when we did The radio station up in Salt Lake City Yeah, KTKK was the call letters up there and after I think it was

37:07

I I think it was Van Hale and One of the things he said to us.

37:13

This was a couple years after my first encounter with Van on KFL our radio and just know that one yeah he said the one thing about you guys is

37:24

You you you seek to be accurate and you've remained consistent in the message that you've had over the years and I'm like That's one of the best you know and so when the other side says

37:38

Yeah, you're you're seeking to accurately represent us. That's vitally important for for for a

37:44

Christian to hear Yeah disagree with our conclusions, but you've got to you've got to represent the other side accurately

37:51

I remember that conversation, and I was so blown away that he had noticed that you were saying the same thing today

37:58

We just finished this program Bill Hamlin was calling in I believe Peterson was there remember all well

38:05

Peterson Hamlin were in studio I'm not sure that was the same one okay, but but the Point that was made was you're still saying the same thing yeah today

38:14

I'm not sure he meant it as a compliment, but I took it as one and and yet We knew of so many other ministries.

38:21

It's like they're a moving target right just a moving target How are you supposed to know what? What they're going to say tomorrow as they adjust their apologetic to fit the

38:34

And there had been some movement amongst the ministries In jumping on to bandwagon zeal something would come up that looked like it would be really negative to Mormonism And we're just focused on one thing we want people to know who

38:48

God is who Jesus is what salvation is you just remain focused on that type of thing, but This is not a stupid person.

38:55

We're talking about There's no reason for him at this point in time to no longer understand what it is. We're saying right

39:01

I've met plenty of Mormons who do understand we're saying mm -hmm, so it's it's not something It's like well. No one's ever understood this and it's just a mystery and you all never figured out either blah blah blah

39:10

That's the normal excuse it is used, but we had done in studio At apologia we had done a response to the three

39:19

Mormons on all this stuff before we had him in then we had the encounter and Now this is after all of that.

39:28

Yeah, why he's been corrected before He's been corrected in person and his response to being corrected in person was essentially well

39:36

Let's just get to the let's just get to the argument now that was it was sort of just a passive You know you know let's get on to it now

39:43

Let's move to the new place whereas he was corrected before We've talked to him in studio And now he continues to give this portrayal of wanting to be accurate and to be accurately representing what

39:52

Christians believe But he's making errors the whole way through I mean

39:57

He reads the Creed where it talks about the confusion of persons and dividing this Substance the being of God and then he just drops it off here in a moment and just goes on this

40:07

Rant about how inconsistent it is and let's listen to that. Okay, so it's important to know they do not divide

40:12

You cannot divide them There's only one for the person of the father is a distinct person the person of the Son is another and that of the

40:18

Holy Spirit is still another so it's interesting about that as it just said you cannot divide But then they did that right by differentiating the three by saying this is this this is this and this is this you divide it

40:28

So it declares that it cannot be divided, but then it goes on immediately to divide So there's the distinction the distinction between being in person you don't divide the being but you recognize the existence of the three divine persons so by taking the position he's taking by Definition we cannot believe we believe simply because you won't accept the terminology we're using you can't have one being of God shared perfectly by three co -equal persons

40:54

Because you're some sort of a Unitarian that doesn't really have a eternal unlimited being of God in the first place

41:01

Mm -hmm so so you anachronistically you take The the viewpoint of a guy who lived in at the beginning of the 19th century and you read it backwards and try to turn

41:11

Into mishmash stuff that came long before him that he himself was rather completely ignorant of yeah

41:17

And the creed doesn't say that there's not a distinction in persons in terms if you want to go one two three the creed says

41:23

That there are three persons. Don't confuse the persons, but the division they're not dividing the what it's specific

41:30

The essence the substance the being of God now, he ought to know that because he read it, right?

41:35

Well, but later on he's simply gonna say well, they're pretty much the same thing Yeah, and and when you combine that with one of the other major Arguments he's gonna make a new a completely new definition of God from the

41:49

Christian perspective that none of us have ever heard of before And that is that the Father and the Spirit are ideas, right?

41:55

And then he runs with that the rest of the the rest of the video by the by the end.

42:01

You're just like Who put you in the position at your age and experience to redefine

42:08

Christian terminology for us, right? Right and also really bad Philosophy and in the area of philosophy the distinction between abstractions and trends something that's transcendent, right?

42:19

He doesn't seem to understand what those categories are I think that even even somebody who was a philosophy professor that didn't hold to Mormonism or Christianity would say with us

42:27

Those are two different categories. You're confusing. It's it's he's using the wrong terminology and by his

42:33

Confusing it he ends up confusing others and the question is is that purposeful? Yeah, that really that really is but the divinity of the

42:41

Father Son and Holy Spirit is one the glory equal their majesty co -eternal What quality the Father has the

42:46

Son has and the Holy Spirit has this is all in reference to the Father Son the Spirit's? participation in the one divine being

42:52

There's uncreated. The Sun is uncreated. The Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable. The Sun is immeasurable

42:58

The Holy Spirit is immeasurable again in regards to their participation in the divine being the

43:03

Sun lived at a point in time In a certain place so on so forth, but Kwaku will clearly refuse to recognize the

43:16

Different aspects of Christ's existence. So in other words Christ eternal Pre -existence as a divine person and then his incarnate existence are all conflated.

43:26

There is no well because there is no distinction I mean, you've got a yeah, he had a a

43:32

Spirit body, but the spirit body made out of matter right? Anyways, so again the the categories that Mormonism in You know forces upon the early church when they had no concept of these things whatsoever

43:45

That's right results in a complete redefinition of all the terminology The Father is eternal. The Sun is eternal.

43:51

The Holy Spirit is eternal and yet there are not three eternal beings There is but one eternal being being being being being being there's not three beings.

43:59

It's right there How fast will that last in his in his mind Christian guys from back way back then

44:07

Some guys back then. I love those guys But the history there are three and one there are three and one that cannot be divided

44:14

But you've already divided them by virtue of counting them and differentiating between one another So again in person in person not in being so there's three but not three

44:25

I know you're thinking well, it doesn't really make sense and you're right And you're right and you're right

44:30

I Mean The laughter is just simply so you don't you don't get angry

44:39

But it's how many times have well today I was in a conversation with someone on Twitter a young lady a young millennial and I was it was so sad

44:50

I mean she was defending abortion and It was so sad that she was basically saying yeah, we are just a bunch of bags of fizzing chemicals, and this is all just random and Hey, we're more important than babies in the womb because we survived.

45:06

Mm -hmm and Then she starts talking about doing good and experiencing joy, and I'm pointing out you you are you are stealing

45:15

From my worldview to cobble something together. You're calling a worldview and yeah, you can't you

45:22

I wish I could reach in and change the heart right? I can't yeah, it can be an instrument pray for somebody

45:29

Hope that somebody else may be watching the conversation will be blessed or changed or whatever But oh, it is so frustrating and to hear this and you know, here's a guy

45:39

Got a lot of neurons firing up there, but just is not listening to what he's saying, right? He has such a thick Lens through which he's looking at it that he can read it and still not hear what it's saying

45:48

That's right, and it's it ends up deceptive. There are not three uncreated or immeasurable beans There's but one uncreated and immeasurable being similarly the father is almighty.

45:57

The Sun is almighty The Holy Spirit is almighty yet. There are not three almighty beings. There is but one almighty being You know, the

46:02

Athenian creed is being really really consistent awesome when you let it so great. I love it so much so Thoughtful and important and I love it

46:14

Even though people love to try to use it to you know, create this type of confusion The Holy Spirit is

46:19

God yet. There are not three gods. There is but one God. That's the father's Lord The Sun is Lord. The Holy Spirit is Lord yet.

46:25

There are not three Lords. There's the one Lord now the creeds pretty long So I'm going to jump down real quick and focus on one of the part and then we'll talk about it

46:31

And I'll ignore everything that I've read beforehand. Yes, right. There is one father not three fathers. There's one son not three sons

46:37

There's one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits Nothing in this Trinity is before or after Nothing is greater or smaller and their entirety the three persons are co -eternal and co -equal with each other

46:46

So there's a lot to unpack there so this is a great foundation to understand what mainline Christians believe in what evangelicals believe in what

46:52

Catholics believe in what Protestants believe in and Respectfully, it doesn't make any sense at all. It doesn't make any sense at all.

46:59

They see What I would what I could respect would be for him to say something along the lines of and I don't believe that there is any basis in Scripture or in Revelation for believing any of that?

47:12

Yeah, but to simply sit there and say these folks were just babbling Now I can make an argument that there were a number of times that Joseph Smith was just babbling.

47:22

Mm -hmm There there There are lots of places, but Joseph Smith was one guy

47:29

Who has next to no meaningful connection to anything that's come before him and he said that I mean how many times that Marvel's working?

47:36

I wonder about LeGrand Richards does LeGrand Richards say and Joseph Smith did not learn this from the

47:42

Bible It came through Revelation. So so so Mormonism for years We are absolutely unique.

47:49

We we don't don't get this idea that we're getting this from anything beforehand. That's right he was absolutely unique and what he came up with was really weird and Can't answer questions about the about eternal regression and all those those types of things like that But this isn't just one guy

48:05

The Athanasian Creed is not formed by just one guy and there were Generations of people writing entire books and having debates and everything else

48:13

If you don't understand what they were saying it may be because you're the one missing it not because they were the ones missing it

48:20

Right, you know when I criticize The second Nicene Council, not the first the second

48:25

Nicene Council a half a millennium later. Well 400 years later I will look at their argumentation and I will look at the sources that they utilize and stuff like that I'm not just simply gonna sit there and say ah, it doesn't make a lick of sense and and think that's an argument

48:38

That's not an argument He's not the only one that makes this kind of kind of statement

48:43

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians make that kind of statement as they dismiss church history But what when he quoted the

48:49

Creed it made perfect sense as long as you distinguish between being in essence use the same term

48:55

And person as the Creed does as he's reading it. Yeah So anybody I would just say this if people are new to this discussion or saying don't really understand what's going on here

49:05

What why is it so complicated? I would say just listen to what quick who is reading the distinctions that are made between person and being in the

49:12

Creed itself They're deriving that from scripture that what the Bible says about God God's nature about the persons the distinction in persons in the scriptures and yet the consistent from beginning to end

49:27

Calling of the Father God Jesus God the Holy Spirit God and yet there's a distinction in persons the father speaking to the son the son speaking to the father

49:35

The Holy Spirit speaking to Paul calling Paul to go somewhere and yet no confusion of persons and yet one

49:42

God an eternal God and You're getting those those those things from scripture

49:48

If you hear quake who talking about person and being don't confuse the persons and don't divide the substance or the being

49:55

If you understand what we're saying in terms of the being of God the essence or substance of God God's nature

50:00

The nature of God and then the persons then the Creed makes perfect sense if you allow the context

50:07

He doesn't hasn't given the context He may not know the context or his knowledge of it may be very warped and twisted because he's fighting against it but when

50:16

I teach in the subject the Trinity when you start with the biblical evidence when you start with biblical monotheism and The the distinction of the persons and yet their equality together with one another and then you realize what controversies have come before To which the

50:31

Athanasian Creed Chalcedon and others are seeking to provide a response. That's right.

50:36

That's right Then you understand why they're emphasizing the thing there I'm so you forget all that you pull it out and it's like why in the world

50:43

Repeat so many of these things like this That's where you can make it look like it's doing something that it really wasn't.

50:49

Yeah You have the father who is omnipresent all -powerful and immaterial so immaterial means a lack of matter

50:56

He's not made of matter. He's not made of atoms or anything like that. He's no matter at all. He is omnipresent He is everywhere

51:04

He is an idea there Okay, here's the introduction and this is gonna it's gonna come back over and over and over again

51:11

He is an idea and I use the word idea not to be disrespectful But because that's the only way you can be categorized now

51:17

That is not the only way you can be categorized categorized that involves a complete redefinition of everything

51:23

Christians always believed You won't find anybody who had anything to do with Chalcedon the Athanasian Creed Ephesus and I see anything like that ever identifying

51:32

God as an idea and so if if I introduced such a radical redefinition of the

51:44

Mormon doctrine of God a Mormon would be in a very good position to simply dismiss me.

51:50

Mm -hmm and Say if you can't deal with what we really believe in why are you even bothering right?

51:56

But yeah, rightly so and rightly so and yet all the way through this half -hour video

52:03

He is going to come up with this idea that the Trinity is Two ideas and one embodied person.

52:11

Mm -hmm as if that in some way shape or form represents what we believe and it's not even Close and so my question is why?

52:18

Mm -hmm. He didn't do that when he was with us. Yeah This must be some does he really think?

52:25

That he has come up with a new Methodology that no one has ever thought of before Maybe no one saw before because they realized how bad an idea right exactly

52:36

He seems confused and I think I'm not sure how much of this we're gonna play But if you guys get a chance to hear it He's confused about the different distinction between an abstraction and something that's transcendental you want it

52:47

I think I think is it is I think it is Everything that governs humanity we have what I like to call governing forces

52:53

Let's look at the way human beings are what I like to call. That's good. That gets scary. Mm -hmm, you know if if he was a 59 year old professor of philosophy with multiple books published then maybe

53:08

But I I'm sorry Why in the world would I care about what he has come up with when he's already already demonstrated

53:17

He has no earthly idea in the last. Yeah in the last three minutes He's already confused so many categories and had such a hard time thinking in different categories

53:26

Consistently and represent and representing what others believe it's hard hard to accept what you like to call something

53:33

Humanity we have what I like to call governing forces. Let's look at the way human beings are governed We're governed by logic and emotion and hope and fear.

53:41

I mean it logic emotion hope and fear So these are things so so logic and Fear are put in the same put in the same category.

53:53

Yeah, and they're not yeah Exactly Sorry, okay.

54:01

All right. Yeah, so Out in logic would be abstract thoughts logical thinking laws of logic mathematics

54:11

Abstractions, so those are those are abstractions, but it doesn't mean that they're meaningless We would say that laws of logic reflect the thinking of God They're not something above God that God has to sort of appeal to and stop and go am

54:25

I being consistent, right? They're not above God just like good like the standard of good isn't like in quake

54:31

Who's thinking the standard of good and evil is outside of God? It's very clear and makes sense to me that a man would think that yep

54:39

Now from a Christian perspective Good is actually defined by God's own character.

54:46

He's the standard of good What he does is always good like when we say

54:51

God is love God is the standard of love love isn't some Something outside of God some law he has to follow like laws of logic

54:58

The standard of righteousness is outside of God and he's got to sort of say now am I holding all this together? I better really try that's one of the distinctions also between the

55:07

Christian God and the Mormon God is the Mormon God is bound and he's underneath these different Categories and laws the laws of logic laws of thought you could say in many ways good standards of good and righteousness

55:21

All those things are in and quake who admits it these existed before our Heavenly Father He he's gonna say that he organizes them and sort of shapes them.

55:30

It's like so they're outside of God He has to appeal to them. Those are the standards of good that I have to follow.

55:36

They're outside of me That's not the Christian God God is good by nature. His very character is a standard of all goodness, but all that to say abstractions versus something that's

55:45

Transcendent and an abstraction is like a law of logic now just because you say it's an abstraction doesn't mean that it's not real

55:52

That it's just an idea. It's actually universal. It is a material.

55:57

Of course it is Unchanging and that's because it reflects the very thinking of God But when you think in an abstract category like a law of logic or laws of math, you can't just say it's just an idea

56:09

It's like wait a second. The law of non -contradiction isn't just an idea. It's the law and it's like it's like gravity, right?

56:18

Exactly, and that's not fear. Yeah, he put that with together He put an emotional thing like fear in an abstract thought category like laws of logic

56:27

So so when you think about it, I I can't violate the law of non -contradiction But that's the same thing as my being afraid of heights.

56:36

Mm -hmm Yes, he's yes, and he's muddled thinking very much.

56:41

So and so and I think any Anybody who studies this area and thinks about what conversations have already taken place before Kwaku was born

56:50

Christian philosophers Atheistic philosophers have already had these long discussions and clarified categories in terms of what we when we talk about God is immaterial we're talking about some something that is

57:05

Transcendent that is outside of a creaturely common experience of the material he is

57:12

Transcendent he's outside of common experience, but it doesn't mean that he's just an idea He has real being real existence

57:20

We're not talking about an abstraction like a law of logic we're talking about a personal being and we would use the the the terminology of transcendent not abstraction and I I don't know of Any philosopher that I can think of that would ever even use that category when they talk about God as an abstraction

57:40

God's merely an abstraction. We would know the word the terminology is transcendent, right?

57:46

There's a distinction in category, but there's no foundation for that within his worldview No, so, I mean that's that's why

57:52

I've said we can have a meaningful discussion with a Muslim on these topics but we encounter a huge chasm because the

58:04

Muslim and the Christian are closer because they Recognize these categories and work within these categories

58:11

Mormonism when when Joseph Smith we have him said we have imagined suppose the God is God from all eternity I'll refute the idea and take away the veils that you may see he separated his followers from Christianity forever

58:22

By a chasm that is massive. Yeah, and so they don't have a foundation within a worldview to even define transcendence to even have such in fact

58:33

Mormonism when you think about it, even though it talks about a spiritual pre -existence as he himself will say at some point

58:39

He says but we believe that all spirits are just simply refined matter. Yes.

58:44

They these people are materialist to the max They are materialist to the max and their

58:52

God is as well Let me let me continue his while you're looking for all this kind of stuff, right? These are emotions and we also have our thoughts that govern us, right?

59:00

They think they command and guide our choices and our reactions to things our thoughts and emotions don't exist outside of our being, right?

59:07

They don't exist outside of us. These things are immaterial governing forces emotions and thoughts are immaterial to they're not matter

59:14

In fact, you can't even prove that logic exists You can only use logic to try to prove that other things exist. These things are abstractions their methods right there

59:21

They're not actual things their ideas every single immaterial governing force that exists is an idea every single one

59:28

If you don't believe me, I want you to pause this video right now Try to think of one immaterial governing force that is not an idea.

59:34

You can't do it Can you it's not possible because every single immaterial governing force that exists is an idea

59:40

So there you go Everything is just to be thrown into that. It's just it's it talk about some type of minimalization

59:48

Yeah, I mean, I don't know where he's I really don't know where he's getting this I think the appropriate thing to do would be for Kwaku to simply say

59:56

Do you guys believe what I just said and for us to simply say no? No We don't we don't believe that at all and that's because you're confusing categories of thought of something

01:00:05

That's an abstraction again versus some when we talk about God as transcendent and again you you made a good point now

01:00:11

I hope people catch this when you talk about he's confusing it because of his perspective his worldview

01:00:16

They're materialist to the core. He has a completely different perspective He's not neutral here that he's loading into this this conversation when we talk about God is spirit.

01:00:26

God is spirit We're thinking about that in a completely different category because of the biblical worldview that gives to us those definitions

01:00:34

What are we talking about when we say God is spirit? What do we talk about when we talk about ordinary human experience?

01:00:39

This is where we're coming from. His perspective is starting from a completely different platform where he believes again this idea of spirit as outside of as outside of this experience as Transcending this experience.

01:00:54

No spirit is refined matter it's like this perfect so he doesn't have the category of thought that we have that there is there is there is a

01:01:02

Substance there is a nature There is something that transcends this material experience

01:01:08

That God has defined for us that he gives us these categories to think in because he defines himself

01:01:14

He's revealed himself to us. So that as his creatures was to look at his revelation and say, okay

01:01:20

I understand the categories God's talking and now he's talking about himself that is above our ways higher than us different than us

01:01:26

We're the creatures. This is our experience He created this world out of nothing

01:01:31

And so we think in those categories because we're using the revelation of God as the category definer

01:01:37

He's thinking in Joseph Smith's categories Mormonism's category. So when he looks at someone saying well,

01:01:43

God is spirit He goes pish posh spirit. What is spirit an idea and it's like no spirits transcendence.

01:01:50

It transcends normal common creaturely Categories that we see as normal to us, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist because we say it is spirit and as a 29

01:02:02

God says you think The Potter is like the clay. Yeah, and the

01:02:08

Mormon says Exactly, and that's what Craig is gonna say. You're gonna play where he literally says

01:02:15

This is this is the God we worship. He's created. He has a physical body He's ruled by law

01:02:22

He's he's a man, yeah, that's the Mormon God he's being consistent there He's being consistent there and the biblical

01:02:28

God says you're an idolatry. Yes, right because I'm not like the clay and the

01:02:34

Fundamental worldview assertion of Mormonism is yes, you are. Yeah, that's where Mormonism is

01:02:41

Totally separated from us and will always be separate from us. So God the father being an immaterial governing force

01:02:47

It's just an idea and the most honest look at mainland Christianity. God the father is just an idea

01:02:53

That's not an honest look at all. That is pure here That's I I had him out on the

01:02:58

Michael Heiser stuff. So you need one of these I do need one You can't have this one. Sorry, okay

01:03:04

But I don't know sort of looks like your hair. It does a little bit. Yes But don't have a beard then have a beer.

01:03:10

We need to put a beard on mine. We'll have a beard for sure Definitely we need to so somebody out there you start making Jeff his his own

01:03:17

Big beard nice big beard but he would burn easily so you need to be very careful because I have

01:03:23

I Actually took the the BIC in the other room because I have gotten it too close a few times it's been a little bit scary, but this is this is a straw man misrepresentation of What Christians believe?

01:03:36

To say that God the father is an idea. I mean, let's just let's just be straightforward I don't care what flowery terms is gonna put upon it.

01:03:43

This is a massive misrepresentation and if Quake who continues to use it without providing

01:03:53

Substantial documentation that he is seeking to accurately represent us. That's that's really well

01:03:59

It's just and think about the fallacious nature of it If I say I want everyone to think about a purple house.

01:04:05

I want everyone to think about a pink cow I want everyone to think about an ugly boy

01:04:11

Now we could say those are ideas, right? But doesn't mean they don't exist like people have painted cows pink for fun

01:04:19

There are purple houses and there are you boys some things? Yeah, right. Exactly. People have done these things.

01:04:24

I'm not I just It's just a hypothetical officer. It's just a hypothetical So but here's the thing just because you postulate something as an idea

01:04:34

It doesn't mean that doesn't have existence. And so if Christians are explaining God and he says that's just an idea

01:04:41

It's like no I'm explaining God just because I'm giving you a category of thought to think and because something is an idea

01:04:47

Doesn't mean that it doesn't have a real existence And so I think there's just major confusion on his part here, and I think it comes from this.

01:04:54

He's a creature He does he can't comprehend this God. No, he wants a God he can comprehend

01:05:00

That's like him that was once a man Who became an exalted man And sits enthroned in yonder heavens.

01:05:07

That is the great secret. I mean think about what Joseph says here I'll just say this quickly as possible. He says most famous discourse and quake who's being very consistent here

01:05:15

He says in the King Follett discourse. I will prove that the world is wrong by what show by showing what

01:05:20

God is I'm going to inquire after God for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him He says that she will then know that I am his servant for I speak as one having authority

01:05:29

I will go back to the beginning before the world was to show what kind of being God is what sort of being was

01:05:35

God in the beginning? He says God himself was once as we are now as it is and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens

01:05:41

That is the great secret. I say if you were to see him today You would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person image and very form of a man and so When Joseph Smith is

01:05:56

Defining his God here the way that he is he's giving to us an exalted man someone from the very beginning who was a man

01:06:05

And that's where Joseph that's where quick who is operating from that's where his critiques coming from is that he as a creature cannot comprehend our

01:06:14

God and to that we say Quick who I totally get it. I totally get it

01:06:19

He is he is not that God is an apprehendable or understandable in terms of when God communicates that it's

01:06:26

Confusion or illogical, but of course we grant that God is incomprehensible to a three -pound brain and a creature like us and I want to say this he ought to be

01:06:39

Considering the being that he is very uncomfortable. Yeah, it's very uncomfortable Yeah, what we want a comfortable religion.

01:06:45

Mm -hmm, and that's what you that's what you're gonna end up with her Now Jesus Christ is a glorified perfect person He has a body and he is not an idea and the

01:06:52

Holy Spirit as well is an idea Because he's omnipresent all -powerful and immaterial now what's important to note is that there's not three

01:07:00

Holy Spirits There's only one Holy Spirit but the Father is Spirit and Christians often like to cite the Bible and it says God is spirit

01:07:06

God the Father God is Spirit as one of the biggest foundations of Christianity says there's only one Holy Spirit, but isn't the

01:07:11

Father Holy? So are there two Holy Spirits? No there's just one Holy Spirit and in fact if the Father is Omnipresent and everywhere and all -powerful and the

01:07:19

Spirit is omnipresent everywhere and all -powerful and neither have any boundaries then there can't be two They have the same nature and the same being and in fact, they're both a part of the same

01:07:27

God How can you tell the difference between the Father and the Spirit? There is no difference That is just really

01:07:35

To me that is where you're trying to create confusion when there isn't any reason to do so Yeah, well if he's spirit and he's holy that makes him the

01:07:46

Holy Spirit No Yes, he he is

01:07:52

I'm This is basic category Reasoning 101 well been thrown out the window.

01:07:58

Well, you're a Christian and a man. I'm a Christian. I'm a man So we're the same

01:08:04

Christian man So do you see that there's it's I mean the Bible may say the

01:08:09

Father and the Son send the Spirit right and therefore a Distinction is made but hey This is what

01:08:15

I he can't that I struggle honestly at this point because you

01:08:23

He's a smart kid. Yeah, okay. I don't mean to be diminutive at that point, but he's a smart young man.

01:08:29

So If there was to see I know people on the other side, I know

01:08:34

Mormons. I know Muslims. They are the minority but I have met these individuals who have taken the time to listen to the side and They will accurately represent what we're saying.

01:08:48

So it's not impossible to do So you have to have a deep prejudice or a purpose behind what you're doing to come up with a presentation like we just Right, you're trying to create confusion

01:08:59

You're trying to create confusion. The only difference you can say is that they function differently Well, if they function differently than you have made a distinction between one of the other

01:09:07

Well, if you made a distinction between one of the other than you've divided so there you go So you've divided which was dividing the being or essence into parts

01:09:17

Which we're not doing the distinction is the person's which the creed itself did. Yeah, so this is a completely invalid argument he should know that but Again, maybe he's just maybe this is just for his own audience maybe even though it's all

01:09:32

Christians need to listen to this or maybe he realizes there's a lot of Nominal Christians that have never thought through any of this and hey

01:09:38

Sadly, can you imagine most Christians in most evangelical churches that have never even heard of a meaningful?

01:09:46

Presentation on the Doctrine of the Trinity haven't read the Forgotten Trinity. Well, there you go But you need to everyone go to Amazon and get it now

01:09:53

If you haven't then you're gonna be in in big trouble. This type of thing is gonna left you to leave you I mean, I've done this

01:09:58

I've role -played a Jehovah's Witness This is back before YouTube when I get away with stuff like this and I had

01:10:05

I had a youth minister at one church in Florida spouting modalism within 30 seconds. It was just that easy.

01:10:11

Was your heart broken? Well Expected it and I put him back together again before the end of the thing, but but it was very easily done and and That's that is a reflection on The Christian Church and our priorities today.

01:10:26

I mean we worship God, but we're not gonna say a whole lot about him That's paganism. You don't want to go there. So You know, we don't obviously that's not something we do

01:10:37

At apologia people know exactly we believe why we believe it and I think most of our folks would be able to recognize

01:10:42

I mean there is a That videos act that was that was posted the the shadow video

01:10:51

When when the Jehovah's Witnesses came to his door before he went to Hawaii. Oh, yeah. Yeah Yeah, the shadow preaching is the beard video the shadow beard video

01:10:59

I don't know if you haven't seen it you you got to see it rich guy see it But his wife is around the corner

01:11:05

Yeah with the cell phone and the doors open and the lights coming through and so Zach's at the front door talking to Jehovah's Witnesses and there's

01:11:11

Zach in Silhouette shadow against the wall and you can hear everything. Yeah, and He's just rip snorting

01:11:19

I mean he's going through what Protodocus means and firstborn and you can just see these Jehovah's Witnesses are trying to find some

01:11:25

Some excuse to do we have another appointment somewhere somewhere here, you know, so that that's what our folks do

01:11:32

And and I know there are many others do the same thing, but we are unusual in that in that sense Yeah And so this kind of stuff would cause a lot of a lot of confusion and again if Kwaku if you hear this my friend

01:11:43

The Creed makes the distinction Clearly you read it between persons.

01:11:49

It says no dividing the substance so every time you say I thought you said you can't divide the

01:11:54

Creed says distinction and the persons don't divide the Substance and so every time you throw out this don't divide.

01:12:02

I thought we're not supposed to divide the Creed says There is a distinction in persons. No dividing this substance

01:12:09

So yep, it's right there Christian God the Triune God is three persons one being as many like to say

01:12:15

However, the definition of being in person are just about the same There you go. Are they? There you go.

01:12:21

And there's there's so No, they're not and by you're ignoring that that's where you're that's where you're creating.

01:12:28

Oh When see see whenever the the microphone swings over like that. That's when I know something is

01:12:34

I just heard that beep at the end. Was that the alarm on his computer going? I don't

01:12:42

I don't remember what that was. I'm not sure if he was if he was showing he showed something at that point

01:12:47

I don't remember. I'm only looking at the audio here So, I don't know but anyway, all of us all of us recognize the difference the distinction between being in person

01:12:56

I mean, oh, yeah, if you open a science textbook when it defines different parts of nature and different creatures in the world all of us recognize that when we're talking about the nature of a human being we're not we're using a different category and Definition than when we talk about person you are a human being

01:13:18

You are a human being but when I talk about who you are, I'm saying that's James and that's rich and That's a different.

01:13:26

That's a different Category when we're talking about human being versus person and Quinn Quake Who knows this quite?

01:13:34

Well the difference between his person and my person in your we talked about when he was I was gonna say

01:13:39

Isn't this something you guys went into detail in that discussion? He's had this explained to him and doesn't

01:13:47

Want you know this? the parallel would be if I were to talk about what goes on the

01:13:54

Mormon temple ceremony and I make up some wild crazy thing that has never happened and doesn't now it keeps changing they changed again just recently, but You know if I were to say that they did

01:14:06

X Y & Z and then someone says wait a minute Wait a minute. No, no, no, that's never happened. It doesn't happen Here's the documentation and then six months later,

01:14:14

I'm out saying this happens in Mormon temple ceremony at some point You've got to go. Wait a minute.

01:14:19

You're just not being honest Well, you could turn that table on him and go I insist you believe that Adam is

01:14:26

God Joseph Smith taught this Brigham Young taught this you believe it.

01:14:31

You have to believe I know you believe it You're just and and just argue Dishonestly with him up one side and down the other twisting knowing full well that was abandoned long ago.

01:14:41

Mm -hmm Yeah, well a lot of Christians when they think of God They think of a man a human being because that's what

01:14:47

Jesus was but the reality is the Christian God is to immaterial omnipresent spirit idea essences and Jesus now, that's

01:14:55

I think we're gonna be hearing this Unless he takes this to heart and decides to be honest

01:15:01

But this is the new definition because he repeated it before listen listen way says but the reality is the Christian God is to immaterial omnipresent spirit idea essences and Jesus So that's the definition that you forced on me now to spirit idea

01:15:15

Essences never heard a Christian saying it but if it works, we're gonna use it and I'm voices upon Christians This is what you're right.

01:15:22

This is what you believe and and we just sit back and go no That's not what I believe to spirit idea essences

01:15:27

It's almost capitulation as part Because if you have to totally redefine what the other side says and into categories like that That means you haven't been having much success dealing with what they actually are

01:15:38

Saying and so before we even hear more of this Christians believe this is part of our catechism.

01:15:44

We're doing catechism every Sunday in church. That's right. It's part of our catechism We're memorizing. I have it. Yeah, actually this is so perfect.

01:15:50

I think it is in here. Let's see I love the current question because yes, basically, it's basically the

01:15:56

Chalcedonian definition. I know it's in here somewhere. I saw it. Yeah I think I mean, oh, there you go right here.

01:16:03

So this is our Lord's Supper part one. This is from last Sunday this is

01:16:11

Right there I should know this right there you go catechism So we stand up every every

01:16:16

Lord's Day in church and we go through our catechism and confession Question number 25 who is the

01:16:23

Redeemer of God's elect our whole church stands up and we read this together including the joyously

01:16:28

And it's right joyfully and we we read through the we memorize the scripture together So the only

01:16:34

Redeemer of God's elect is the Lord Jesus Christ who? being the eternal Son of God became man and so was and continues to be

01:16:42

God and Man in two distinct natures and one person forever

01:16:48

So that's part of our we're doing that Hypostatic Union Council of Colston right there.

01:16:54

That's right. So our church is Learning about this kids are learning that that's right before I saw your video

01:17:01

Kwaku We've been doing this for weeks now Every Sunday our children are learning this and memorizing these things and they have competitions every couple of weeks when we go on to the next

01:17:09

Catechism question that children have a competition where they can win prizes about who can do it the for who can do it fast And memorize the whole thing

01:17:15

So we try that's when they're not going to the Phoenix City Council and that's right leading to make a Phoenix a

01:17:21

Sanctuary city and we do it after by the way after service is dismissed. So everyone knows that for everyone who's worried about that but the point is is that we're a

01:17:31

Christian Church who is Confessional and we have a catechism and we go through these things and we understand these things

01:17:38

We understand these things to the degree that when we hear someone like Kwaku Redefining things creating straw man a straw man

01:17:46

We can see it and we go you don't understand what we believe Yeah And you clearly don't know the history when you talk about the hypostatic union when he says spirit

01:17:55

Ideas and then one man. It's like wait a second. How do you have Kwaku? Have you spent any time actually?

01:18:03

Trying to study what Christians believe at this point when we talk about the hypostatic Union because when he says to spirit

01:18:10

Idea essences and then one man in the middle Jesus. It's like You realize this discussion has been had for a very long time, right?

01:18:19

And there were some serious fights over this The thing here is if you listen to a quick who's saying as a

01:18:24

Christian I'm gonna be going this is a person who either does not care enough about me to be accurate or has other reasons why he's doing what he's doing a

01:18:35

Mormon reads this and They're gonna go You did your homework.

01:18:40

I disagree with you, but you did your homework Which means at least you respected me enough to go to my sources use my language and argue against my position

01:18:50

Accurately and fairly it's a huge difference between those two things and I think he needs to he needs to understand it Let's get a few more in here before we completely run out of time.

01:18:57

Dr. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ God the father It's just the way he's described in the Bible. He's a human being.

01:19:03

He's a perfect glorified human being Okay, so there's God the father he is a perfect glorified human being and I people need to understand

01:19:13

That there is no God in Mormonism, right? There are exalted men

01:19:19

God men and angels are all the same order of being at different levels of exaltation

01:19:26

But we are all the same there is one continuum of existence and And Fundamental to any definition of any religious system is whether you believe in a transcended

01:19:39

God the creator of all things That's why I have said and this causes people no end of trouble

01:19:46

But it makes them think and of course I explain it that Islam is much closer to biblical

01:19:53

Christianity in its Foundational conceptions of the universe and existence of God the Mormonism ever could be right because there is no creator creation distinction, right?

01:20:02

Within within Mormonism, but there is within Islam. Mm -hmm. So And it's funny.

01:20:08

I've had a lot of people push back on that only because of their dislike of Islam right and Muslims not because of their like of Mormonism rather than thinking about what

01:20:19

I'm saying and realizing Wow, that is a foundational Fundamental issue and that's gonna impact your apologetic.

01:20:26

It's gonna impact how you approach a Mormon So many Christians approach Mormons as if they're just a variant denomination, they're not

01:20:34

I mean on a Foundational level it's a it's astonishing the difference. Mm -hmm

01:20:40

That's something I think that is really really really important to to grab. Okay, so that's who

01:20:45

God is There's another place where he says that we're used as a term created but just a couple here Jesus Christ is his son and essentially our heavenly elder brother

01:20:53

He is made in the image of God the same as we are So Jesus Christ is our elderly brother. He is a man

01:21:00

He and he is made in the Imago Dei. Mm -hmm. Not the maker of the

01:21:06

Imago Dei, right? Totally different concept. Mm -hmm totally so but they use the word

01:21:12

Jesus Yeah but when you define Jesus in such a way as to put him categorically so far beyond and Outside of what the

01:21:21

Bible does What does it matter that you're using the word Jesus, that's right, it does not make any difference Just say quickly one of the things he does at the beginning of this video as he says, you know

01:21:30

He talked to evangelical Christians. They'll just you know, say well, they'll just start tossing out taxes say there's only one God He says without even giving you the context of those passages

01:21:37

Well, first of all when he tries to do it later in this video and tries to explain away those passages

01:21:42

All he does is let the passage speak and he starts loading his Mormonism into the passage Totally foreign context

01:21:50

Exactly, he doesn't let the text speak and develop context from the text itself and understanding background

01:21:56

All he does is read the text and he goes well, this is what it means And he loads his Mormonism into it. That's called ice of Jesus and that's not contextual

01:22:02

All I will say is that based upon what Quakoo says here you couldn't believe John chapter 1

01:22:08

Right and all I would say is this look if you don't want to go far and wide to research this topic in terms of Comparing the

01:22:13

Quakoo's God versus the biblical God then just say I'll just ask you this Just read

01:22:19

John chapter 1 verses 1 through 18. That's it just read that and let that speak in terms of who

01:22:25

Jesus is and what he's created and The definition of his person all that stuff that takes place in John chapter 1 and then compare that to what

01:22:35

Quakoo says about His God and his his version of Jesus because if you read John chapter 1

01:22:41

It says that Anarchaean Halagos. He was already there Forever ago and he was face -to -face

01:22:48

Prostante on toward the father an intimate relationship with the father and he was God but it says he was in the beginning with God All things were created through him and without him

01:23:01

Nothing's come into being that's come into being Nothing has come into being that's come into being Now if you take that what

01:23:08

John says in John chapter 1 and compare it to what Quakoo says about his God It's not the same God. It's not the same

01:23:13

Christ and there's no way to make it look like it is You might be borrowing quick capital from Christianity and Christian terminology even using terminology like image of God And saying

01:23:23

Jesus is created in the image of God, but that's just a complete perversion of the biblical view of who Jesus is and so you just need to read

01:23:29

John chapter 1 and then go listen to Quakoo and just Ask yourself the question who's being faithful to the text, right?

01:23:36

He's a perfected glorified being as well. And he sits on the right hand of the father. So he's a perfected Perfected glorified being

01:23:43

Holy Spirit is not an idea either the word God says there is no such thing as immaterial matter All spirit is matter but more fine -tuned.

01:23:50

So there's your your there's a strange I think almost unique to Joseph Smith idea of spirits actually

01:23:59

Matter that's so fine that it's invisible or something I've never met anyone who actually really understood what any of that was saying, but yeah there there you go

01:24:09

He's so powerful. Amen. My god is perfect You can use all those pretty words and descriptions to build off that foundation

01:24:15

But ultimately those pretty words and descriptions don't really matter if the foundation doesn't make sense Then those descriptive terms are kind of meaningless and I know that might be really harsh to hear but I don't mean it in a rude

01:24:24

Way, it's just the reality of it. So the reality of it is that Given his confusion.

01:24:31

Yeah that he is now promulgated that means what you're saying doesn't make any sense because I have so badly misrepresented it and therefore

01:24:38

All those words that you use just simply don't have any particular meaning to them. I guess is I guess this is the new

01:24:43

Quaker apologetic I'm not sure what has caused this development But the evangelical God or the mainline

01:24:48

Christian God Christians of all denominations will say Jesus is God Jesus is Lord think about this if the

01:24:53

Father the Son and the Spirit are just one God together Then that's saying that Jesus the second part of the triune

01:24:59

God is the encompassing three father -son spirit all three together make God, right? But if you say that Jesus is

01:25:04

God, then this is actually all of this now, that's not possible, right? That doesn't make any sense But when you say things like Jesus is

01:25:11

God Jesus is Lord You're saying the second part of the encompassing three is the entire three So this is what happens when you do not make the basic distinction that the

01:25:19

Athanasian Creed which he read Taught you to do and that is when you're saying

01:25:25

Jesus is God He takes that term God to be an all -encompassing

01:25:31

So he he what you're saying is that Jesus Shares the one being that is

01:25:37

God as the Father does as the Spirit does But if you don't allow for those distinctions Then now you're saying that Jesus is all -encompassing of so that makes him the father that makes him the

01:25:47

Spirit and makes him himself Because you just won't allow for the distinctions that have already been been made.

01:25:53

That's right And you know biblically I would fire back at this and say the New Testament teaches that Yahweh Places our sins upon the

01:26:02

Messiah. That's the father. I turned that program off I Don't even know how to how to shut it down right now other than to turn the volume down Which won't work because I'm playing it off of this.

01:26:14

So sorry folks. I Took that down, but it's it's being anyways, so I would respond by saying the father is identified as Yahweh Jesus is identified as Yahweh and John 12 41

01:26:27

Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 and the Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh, he is the one when

01:26:34

David spoke by the Holy Spirit that was Yahweh speaking So you have one name of God that is applied to three persons that quake who admits are

01:26:44

Differentiated from one another in the text of Scripture. Mm -hmm. So if we use his reasoning, they're all one person unless he makes the proper distinction to recognize that there's a difference between being identified as Yahweh and being identified as The same person he just won't he's just he's playing games with language

01:27:02

Yep, and it it's it's clear to us, but unfortunately it may not be clear to to other folks

01:27:08

So jumping back to the restored gospel when latter -day saints say we're going to become gods We don't believe we're going to become

01:27:13

Trinitarian omnipresent spirit ideas We believe we're going to become heavenly beings who live forever who grow forever in knowledge and intelligence and power

01:27:21

Not trying three -person being ideas, but heavenly beings gods

01:27:26

So heavenly beings Did you notice who are always growing in knowledge and power?

01:27:34

Mm -hmm now back in the 80s when I first started studying Mormonism There was a debate going on amongst

01:27:39

Mormons as to whether God the Father had achieved Final exaltation the sense of all knowledge and power or whether he was continuing to grow in that.

01:27:51

Yeah And here it seems Quake who takes the continuationist perspective has that side one out?

01:27:59

I don't know. I don't know but so you've got a human being who is still growing so growing power knowledge.

01:28:06

That's right That's not God worthy of worship. That's the God that Mormonism has has to offer to you

01:28:13

And in fact didn't Joseph Smith and Lorenzo snow say that God actually had a God before him Let's talk about for one second and actually it's such on why that makes sense

01:28:20

It is actually the only way God can be good Christians say that God is all -powerful. God has all power

01:28:25

He created everything nothing happened outside of his power and authority So let's examine good and evil if God created everything and saw everything that was gonna happen and hit that first domino and said let

01:28:35

It all rip let it all go that he's the creator of good and evil. He's the father of evil Some people may say no.

01:28:41

No, God is not the father of evil He's only the father of good but evil is a perversion of good But remember if God saw that evil was going to come to pass he saw that it was gonna be present

01:28:49

He let it all happen What does that mean that means he's still the creator of evil because he's the creator of all evil is a part of all things now this section

01:28:57

I wanted to get to because this actually allows us to touch briefly upon theodicy and But we'll just do this section and then we'll call it good

01:29:05

We've been going for 90 minutes. I've still got some other stuff that I'll get to would you trust me to handle this? Okay, I just just want to make sure yeah,

01:29:14

I learned everything I knew from you so So but this is this is the theodicy section and it

01:29:25

Honest with you Jeff. It saddens me greatly. Okay, because I don't know Well, you know, there's been a lot of discussion for a lot of years about the suicide rates in Utah and and things like that I don't know if this is a directly related to that but you have here really a humanistic

01:29:46

Desire to so limit God that you think you have

01:29:54

Solve the theodicy issue when in fact, you've just simply made all evil meaningless.

01:30:01

Mm -hmm My Arminian friends get close to doing this not to the radical level that this does but this is a desire on the part of mankind that we need to fight and So his argument here,

01:30:16

I think we need to hear it. Let me let me with that in mind. Listen, listen to this again So let's examine good and evil if God created everything and saw everything that was gonna happen and hit that first domino and said let

01:30:26

It all rip let it all go then. He's the creator of good and evil So you don't even have the possibility of open theism there.

01:30:32

Mm -hmm. I think even he recognizes really serious open theism Mm -hmm. He's the father of evil.

01:30:37

Some people may say no. No, God is not the father of evil He's only the father of good but evil is a perversion of good But remember if God saw that evil was gonna come to pass he saw that it was gonna be present

01:30:45

He let it all happen. What does that mean? What does that mean does how does the Mormon God have knowledge of future events if he does is

01:30:53

The Mormon God even sufficient as a basis for prophecy, for example. Mm -hmm. How does

01:30:58

God know future events within Mormonism? I've never had anyone really be able to explain it. Is that just a gift given to you over time or something?

01:31:05

I don't know that means he's still the creator of evil because he's the creator of all evil is a part of all things

01:31:11

So you cannot have a creator? Who would have a purpose in the existence of moral evil

01:31:19

It's just it's just a given you can't do it. It's the same thing in in Islam You cannot have a God who enters into his own creation.

01:31:25

It's just a given most almost no Muslims I've ever even thought about why as a Mormon there can be no creator

01:31:32

God Because that would mean he has to somehow answer for the existence of evil

01:31:38

That's what he's saying. God is creator of all things He's also the creator of evil if you're the God you're worshiping is the creator of evil and they can't be escaped

01:31:45

You can try to think about it a million ways to make God not the creator of evil But if you're gonna hold God to the Christian standard, he's been held to for a long time

01:31:51

He is also the creator of evil But if our God if our Heavenly Father had a God before him and was created guess what that means

01:31:58

Okay. So how does how does he turn the eternal law of progression? Allow the

01:32:03

Mormon God to not be the creator of evil. What's it gonna be? That means that there's something called eternal law

01:32:11

You push it off to eternal law. Mm -hmm, which you then cannot give any

01:32:18

Rational explanation for the origin of that's right And he hasn't thought through that Clearly enough to even articulate what that even means and how that solves the problem.

01:32:29

It doesn't solve the problem, right? But it makes the eternal law impersonal and You can just sort of say disconnect not guilty.

01:32:38

Not guilty, right? Guilty that good and evil have been around before our God existed the cats that folks.

01:32:44

I want you to hear this for everybody You need to understand the

01:32:49

Mormon God here. Listen that good and evil have been around before our God existed So he can't be accountable for it because hey, it's a problem

01:32:57

He and he you know, it's sort of like how every president blames the last president for the economy. Mm -hmm

01:33:02

That's right, whatever God whatever God stage you're at same thing, right it's it that's that we've always been dealing with this issue

01:33:10

It's it's a tough one And when he was exalted into godhood and when he became a creator That means he only organized good for the benefit of all of us when he became a creator

01:33:20

Mm -hmm now you've got multiple creators. Mm -hmm and and We're watching

01:33:26

Mormonism collapsing on homosexuality Why? Because they have no ground for a meaningful definition of creator in the

01:33:33

Imago Dei. Mm -hmm because we're Image of God what's that supposed to mean? Mm -hmm, even

01:33:38

God's in the image of God in the image of God It's an image of God in the image of God Where's the stop?

01:33:45

I don't know regression no origin for no meaning to it Exactly and and and that that really important thing there is that the difference between Kwaku's?

01:33:54

Theology and his God versus the biblical theology. The biblical God is that Kwaku has a law a standard operating above or outside of his

01:34:05

God that his God must bend to Be shaped by had to learn to obey

01:34:11

Can you just consider that Kwaku? Worships a man who had to learn to obey a law that is higher than himself that has existed outside of himself and When he sets things in motion, all he does is he's

01:34:27

Kwaku says he shapes good Well is good a substance? Yeah, is it a sub?

01:34:33

What do you mean? He's shapes good I like to ask maybe he can articulate what he means by that What do you mean he shapes good because you just said that it exists outside of God It's a good and evil or standards that have existed and preceded

01:34:44

God our man God that we worship and then his God and his God and his God and then all the other mother gods that have existed

01:34:51

And so what do you mean by shape? Is good material is good made of matter exactly or is it just an idea and therefore not real in the first place, right?

01:34:59

That's what that's what Richard's gonna say. Is that we're gonna say so the ten seconds here and then yeah to fight against people

01:35:05

He didn't create evil evil was already there good was already there good and evil are labels of actions.

01:35:10

They're abstractions They're not actual tangible things. He organizes good to fight against evil.

01:35:16

He isn't the creator of evil There's somewhat of an answer that doesn't seem coherent no

01:35:22

No, it's a There's there's no meaningful discussion happening here And it shaping good even though good isn't material and it's just my extraction and and it's but it's always existed

01:35:34

And so it you can't Come up with an idea as to why it was made or who made it or what the ground of its existence is

01:35:42

I mean, this is a There's a reason why Mormonism has never produced a Coherent worldview and that's why it cannot even begin

01:35:51

To engage with the modern culture and what's going on right now. That's why what we're seeing in Utah. We are seeing this incredible Collapse, I mean it just struck me they have a

01:36:04

God that is gendered Mm -hmm. I mean, he's got a physical body and he has got genitals

01:36:10

He I mean he has sex with his wives And it's directly physical

01:36:17

I mean Joseph Smith made that plane You've heard the story about the guy at the

01:36:23

West West gate of the temple and now you've been up there So now you can sort of envision this so the West gate of the temple

01:36:28

This is back before the meeting house was was built Big tall guy was flying through there and I managed to keep up with him long enough to keep a track in front of him

01:36:37

He grabbed it. He immediately did the the wrist flip to see who had made it He walks through the gate and you can just see him.

01:36:44

He stops and you can see his shoulders go like this Because you know, he's just decided I don't know why

01:36:49

I'm gonna do this But I'm gonna talk to these people and he turns around he walks up to me in front of all

01:36:55

I've got a about four or five my volunteers and this is years ago. He says You know what's wrong with you?

01:37:02

Now? That's not an uncommon thing Fair how many times you heard that fairly fairly normal, you know, what's wrong with you?

01:37:09

He says you think sex is dirty. No, I had not heard that one before. Okay, I was

01:37:14

I'm sitting here going He says you think sex is dirty You don't think God the

01:37:19

Father could have sex the Virgin Mary to create the body of Jesus and that's why you're wrong and this is the true church and he reeled around and walked straight in and I turned around and my my my volunteers are looking at me like going

01:37:32

What just happened we weren't ready for that the seminars you gave us did not prepare us for that That was worth the price of the trip right there

01:37:42

And and I was just just like well that was refreshingly honest because what he was

01:37:48

Specific he was specifically recognizing that in and a lot of Mormons. They don't know that so I says that's why

01:37:55

I had to put entire chapter documenting this in is the more of my brother because so many

01:38:00

Mormons do not understand this but The reason that Jesus could rise from the dead is he had an immortal father

01:38:09

God the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as any man's that's what Doctrine Covenant section 130 verse 22 says and He had sex with his spirit child

01:38:18

Mary Uh -huh to create the body of Jesus and because he's immortal then the body of Jesus is

01:38:24

Immortal and that's why he can rise from the dead. Mm -hmm so you have this and You you look at that and that means

01:38:34

God is gendered. Mm -hmm What could be more utterly? Contradictory to the eternal law of regression than a homosexual deity.

01:38:44

Yep, either male or female Mm -hmm, because the whole purpose of the female is to have literally

01:38:52

Millions of spirit children, I mean any Mormon woman, you know that basically her calling is to be eternally pregnant

01:38:58

She'll never see her feet again. That's what she's called to do. She's an eternal baby -making machine. Mm -hmm and For the man, it's you're getting make those babies with all your multiple wives

01:39:08

I mean you're basically you go to heaven and have sex constantly That's what you do But you've got to have the parts to do it and you've got to have the desire to be doing it with a female

01:39:17

There is nothing that I could even begin to think of that could substantiate the idea of an acceptance of any concept of homosexuality

01:39:25

Within Mormonism and yet we are seeing it rising and I just wonder

01:39:32

I honestly mentioned to someone how long till we see a homosexual General Authority and Could the church even survive something like that?

01:39:42

I thought that I remembered a statement from either Brigham Young or Joseph Smith very early on stating that homosexuality was one of the most grievous sins because of the law of eternal progression because maybe mankind was created for one purpose and that was to Procreate and popular violation of this law and it is one of the most grievous sins and I believe it's a blood atonement level

01:40:09

So well, you're gonna have to look that up now. I'm gonna have to find that that sounds familiar You know where I heard it recently

01:40:17

A a documentary going after the FLDS these young women trying to escape

01:40:25

Arizona no, Colorado City. Yeah, and One of their prophets had included that in his sermon interesting that was played on the show.

01:40:34

Well, I Would like to look that up. That would be that would be very very very interesting

01:40:39

I was just gonna say not to be I don't want to be offensive But when I hear stories like this about gods and eternal sex and things like that I I think to myself yeah, that sounds about right like the kind of thing that fallen man would try to develop a view of the future perspective of the future where it's eternal sex and multiple different women and all those different things and this is our dream and I again,

01:41:00

I don't mean to be offensive or To hurt the feelings of any latter -day saint friends that I have

01:41:07

I just I just want to say that if we consider the the fallen nature of Mankind and what men do and obsess over and the human loss and those sorts of things it just seems like the kind of God that we would create a

01:41:20

God and a future of eternal sex and unlimited sex so yeah,

01:41:26

I think that It's that it's sad to hear that sort of a thing but um, yeah well, you know the nice thing about doing the things we do think around here is we've gone for an hour and 41 minutes and we can stop right there because we don't have any

01:41:44

Networks say we have to have a certain time. That's great. You guys do too. Yeah, are we done? Yeah, we were done.

01:41:50

Yeah You know, we can go from there. That's sort that's the one thing I've enjoyed about not having to have a network type thing and have a you know,

01:41:59

Whenever I filled in for people or like Michael Brown, he's got he's got that clock and that clock is unforgiving

01:42:05

Mm -hmm. You must obey you must bow to it. Yes, and everything I know what that's like. I've been we've been in the radio station and it's hard.

01:42:11

It's hard. It's very very hard Yeah, so and I remember that was I was on that on the program a couple times.

01:42:17

These people are weird. Yeah, that's right Yeah, didn't know what was coming in the future.

01:42:23

That's right. That's right. It's coming. So anyways, well, thank you for coming all this way Jeff to have this discussion with us and I'll be interested.

01:42:34

I would like to think that there might be a response But I just I just haven't gotten the feeling that Quaker is really

01:42:41

Interested in doing that kind of thing, but yeah, you know, we'll see I hope this will be up as a benefit to those and we'll tag

01:42:46

The other videos we put it up as well We'll tag make sure that it gets connected to his video so others can at least hear a response and response to it

01:42:53

And I'll I will try to remember there's not that much more. I was gonna cover this and there's some church history stuff

01:42:58

I wanted to hit because he totally misrepresents church history totally does not recognize that the early church fathers were mon theists

01:43:08

And I can document that I did in is the one my brother very very clearly And so I think you really misrepresented some of the things you put up on the screen

01:43:16

I've got some counter screens to provide to that. So we'll try to get to that When I get back to this, um, by the way this

01:43:24

Sunday I will be preaching in the morning at Faith Community Church down in on I think it's

01:43:30

Orange Grove in in Tucson. I've been there a number of times before so it's the one I've been to before And great church down there.

01:43:38

So I'll be preaching from John chapter 5 There twice I believe on Sunday morning if you want to join us and then

01:43:46

I'm gonna try to make it back in time for Apology a church at four o 'clock. That's right church the Redeemer on Stapley where I'm preaching and And and and have you have you gotten have you gotten used to that now

01:43:59

I'm getting used yes Yeah, having having me because because there's when we first started it was it was sort of like So if I stood in the back with my arms crossed shaking my head back and forth

01:44:11

This this would this would probably throw you off. I mean, I'm good. Now you're good first first Yeah, a little little start was it was weird.

01:44:18

Yeah, it's weird having the person who's taught you and inspired you and Times and it's sort of like yeah, that's what

01:44:26

I meant. Yeah That's right, I mean I I grew I grew up as as as a believer on I was listening to obscene

01:44:35

Amounts of hours of your lectures and your debates. I mean I have a lot of your debates memorized So yeah, it was a little awkward at first It's getting better.

01:44:44

I'm getting the hang of it. Yeah, I'm getting the hang of it I'm getting the hang of it by the way Also for you guys who are watching this and you want to reach

01:44:49

Mormons the gospel for Mormons tracked You can get apology of studios .com we have we just got a new shipment in yeah,

01:44:56

I saw the you've got boxes Yeah, we're sending these out constantly. So apology of studios .com.

01:45:02

We have a gospel tracked in a gospel for Mormons tracked We're working on one for Jehovah's Witnesses right now. I I've tried

01:45:09

I need to do one on Islam and And because the million tracks guys are working with us.

01:45:14

And what's the we've got we've got another we have the It's Christian message they're doing another printing of the

01:45:23

Christian message tracked And we're also doing the pillar and foundation of the truth tract which

01:45:29

I wrote in You sure cuz it was because we were distributing it what 93

01:45:35

I was gonna say 99 is 1993 when the Pope came to Denver Oh, that's right.

01:45:41

And so we were that's the tract We were passing out to all the pilgrims going across the walking to the to the mass and in Denver So so long ago now that it's hard to hard to believe but we will have those as as well

01:45:55

So yeah, I get those tracks have them available for folks and thank you again for coming out.

01:46:00

Thanks, brother, and we will see you Sunday evening for church and we'll see you next week here on the dividing line.