Practical Apologetics | @Wisdomforthechurch

Hi, this is John with Wisdom for the Church. Thank you for tuning into the channel. If you haven't already, go ahead and subscribe and drop a like on this video.

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Right. Well, welcome back to Wisdom for the Church. I am John. Thank you for tuning in. Today we have a repeating guest, and that is

Jeremiah Nortier, the apologetic dog. How you doing, man? John, thanks for having me back on, man.

Absolutely. The dog is barking. He is ready to go. The reason I'm having Jeremiah back on is, well, one, he is very informed on the topics that he speaks about, and he's an aid to his church, and I think a channel like this and his own.

But two, the comments on our previous video on the Church of Christ were almost too positive.

They were far too positive, and so I thought, well, we have to bring him on for something else. So I think you definitely lent a lot of insight into the differences between what

I would say would just be basic biblical Christianity and something that at the very least is teetering on missing the gospel, how one is made right with God, so with the

Church of Christ. That's one of my main areas of evangelism. So as we get into apologetics, my heart is to be evangelistic and sharing the gospel of grace.

And the biggest concern, like you're saying, for the Church of Christ is they conflate the distinction between law and gospel.

And when you do that, Galatians 1 just says, look, that's a different gospel that can't save. And like you said, when we're talking to Church of Christ, I believe if we just speak the truth and love,

God will use that. It'll go forth, and God should hear his voice, the Good Shepherd's voice.

And so that's what continues to compel me to maybe continue to reach out to a group that's pretty hostile, as you probably caught wind in your comment sections the last video that we did.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's a spectrum there, obviously. Some are more ready and available to have a conversation or hear out and vice versa than others.

And so I definitely saw both realities in the comments. And so yeah, check out that video if you haven't watched it,

The Truth About the Church of Christ with Jeremiah. That was a fun one. Today is about the subject of apologetics, the subject of apologetics, and basically, the fact that it is practical, or is it practical?

That's the question, the content that we're discussing today. And one reason I wanted to discuss that with Jeremiah, one, he is the apologetic dog, so there's no one else

I could talk to about it. It's his wheelhouse. But two, I believe, and maybe we can launch here,

I believe that when I first heard about this idea of apologetics and thought about it and presented it, it seemed to be something that was reserved only for an academic sort of a realm, much like if we say the word theology.

Initially, I'm thinking, oh, it's just an academic realm. But everyone's a theologian, and so we'll talk about everyone who's a

Christian and an apologist. But if you were to give a definition, what is, in general, apologetics?

The bare understanding of apologetics is to give a defense. Some people are like, apologetics, like are you giving apologies all the time?

Yes, but it's not saying I'm sorry, but it's giving a defense. And John, I played basketball, so I tell people

I play defense and offense. And so biblically speaking, Jude 1 verse 3 talks about that we as Christians are to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

And so I do think apologetics is both offensive and defensive. We guard the gospel of grace, but we also push the antithesis, if you will.

So we ask questions, too, about other people's worldview, especially relating to truth. Absolutely.

Yeah, that's a good, concise definition, a defense of, in this case, the faith and contending for the faith.

I like the idea of offense and defense. And I think one thing that has helped me think about just a basic understanding of what are we talking about apologetics is thinking of it outside the realm of the faith for a second, and then it's like, oh, okay,

I understand. Like you hear so -and -so is a Trump apologist. Basically, they're always defending and trying to give the best presentation of Donald Trump, in this case.

And sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. So whatever you're contending for, you're kind of an apologist for that thing.

Well, thank you for giving a bit of just kind of basic insight about it.

And again, if you don't care, I was going to say one proof text for apologetics that a lot of people appeal to is 1

Peter 3, 15. And so that full verse says, In your hearts, honor Christ the

Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense, or that's the word where we get apologetics, from a defense to anyone who asks for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.

And so that's essentially kind of the heart behind the Christian is we want to live our lives in such a way that it provokes people to ask us questions why we do what we do.

Yeah, live your life in such a way that it provokes natural questions being asked. It is interesting, which this can kind of be another launch here that will help get into our more core subject matter.

When I am just at a basic thing like hanging out with some friends in the neighborhood, or just hanging out with friends that I randomly met or whatever, it always, even to this day, is incredible to me how quickly it can get into just the deeper things of life.

And naturally, it is going to rub shoulders with Christianity, because where do we get these thoughts of the deeper things of life?

And so I guess that gets into the question, is apologetics a practical endeavor?

Is it less formal than we might think? And do you have any examples of that playing out in your life?

Not on a debate stage per se, but just kind of in your everyday life? Yeah, and I do want to go back to this verse, because it says, in your hearts honor

Christ the Lord as holy. So if you love Christ, if you are desiring to live your life to the glory of God, well, that changes who you are.

That changes how you talk. It changes about what you care about most in life.

And so whether you are playing pick -up ball, meeting new people, something is going to be different about you.

And I believe the Christian should be praying for opportunities to share your faith, to share your testimony, how

God in His amazing sovereign grace saved you and forgave your sin. And apologetics might sound academic.

And like I said, that Greek word apologia, to give a defense, I think it can be very academic, and we'll get into some of the depth of what that looks like.

But I think it's as practical as living the Christian walk, sharing other people how you've been changed and saved.

And so I have these all the time, talking with people that maybe are professing

Christians or profess to be agnostic. I actually had a recent conversation about this, and just simple things of asking about, hey, what do you think the purpose in life is?

I mean, if that's not a set of questions that get you talking about truth and, you know, why are we here?

People have opinions about that. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I would say as you're building relationships, you're going to see there's a myriad of opportunities to just go to swing the pendulum to really open the door to kind of talk about the deeper truths in life.

And that's what the Christian wants to do, because we ultimately believe truth is not just an abstract idea that we just, you know, pontificate about.

No, truth is a divine person. And so that's where we're wanting to ultimately get it. Yeah. And with it being so practical, you might be able to speak in this pretty well.

Where does your persuasion of being a presuppositional apologist fall into that in the practicality versus the, we might say, what classic apologetics?

Yes. I want to be super charitable, too, with the distinctions between the major schools of thought pertaining to apologetics.

Because now we're about to go kind of into the deeper end of the pool, if you will. What's so appealing to me and persuasive to me about the school of presuppositionalism is we really do stand on God's word as we are engaging with the unbelieving world.

And so, like, I love John 17, 17. Jesus is praying to the Father, Father, sanctify them, the disciples, in the truth, your word is truth.

And so we've been changed. And I believe we've been changed from the heart, from our inner being, how we look at the world.

And Colossians 2 talks about all the riches of full assurance, knowledge, and wisdom is only found in one source, and it's

Jesus Christ. And so precept says we don't leave that worldview.

Precept says we stand on the word of God, regardless if people don't like that and say, don't give me the

Scripture. Tell me why you became a Christian. Oh, well, I was transformed by the gospel.

That's behind why I believe what I believe. I believe it's Romans 8 that talks about how the

Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit. And so there's something internal that I can't show.

But when we get to truth or when we get to the Scripture, that's where we can start pointing objectively about there's only one source where we can get truth, and it comes from the

God of truth who's revealed himself. Yeah, yeah. So you're always going back to that core foundation about what is the source of all this,

I suppose you could say. Yeah, and the classical school of thought is really trying to prove two things.

They're going to have philosophical arguments to prove that God probably exists, and then they want to make separate arguments proving that Jesus probably resurrected from the dead, and those two should fit together.

As our precept is more inclined to actually to the unbeliever, you know

God exists, Romans 1, and you are suppressing the truth in your love for your sin.

In order to suppress something, that means you have it. So there's a form of self -deception going on, and so it's a totally different take.

And I'll be honest, unbelievers, especially the militant atheist kinds, they despise the presuppositional methodology, and most times, often, they don't understand what's being communicated.

And what precept essentially attempts to do is to say no one's neutral. We all have our own worldviews and presuppositions, and so whose presuppositions, whose worldview can account for the world that we live in?

So we ask questions, and we do what's called an internal critique. Okay, yeah, and with all of these terms, you know, kind of being thrown around, presuppositional, internal critique, it seems to be for most of us, for most of us, we may not ever use any of those terms in a conversation.

But we'll absolutely be at a barbecue, or be at like a Christmas party or whatever, and ask the question, well, why do you believe that that thing was evil?

Or where do you get that standard of why that thing was good?

Or why it's okay for you to say you love Jesus, but not go to church, or whatever it is?

By what standard or foundation are you pulling from and standing on? That's what my son should have said is, by what standard over here?

Because no one's neutral. We all have a standard in which we're judging things from, and for the unbeliever, typically, it's their own reason.

That's the bar that everything else is judged in light of. And Christianity comes along and says, well, what's the grounding for your reason to even make sense in the first place?

And we're wanting to point out, unless you were made in the image of the sovereign triune

God who has clearly revealed himself, you couldn't really know anything. If you try to have a different foundation, everything reduces to absurdity, and you can never know things with certainty, and therefore you would never have knowledge or truth.

And so Christianity, we're wanting to show this beautiful worldview and say, oh, this can be grounded in the nature and character of God, who is actually spoken.

And that's necessary for us to be able to make sense in the world that we live in. We are literally living in God's universe.

Yeah, those are some great ways to put that. It's very interesting to think about with something along those lines of even just assuming the fact that we have rational thoughts and going back to that foundation, well, why if you were an atheist or agnostic or whatever, would you think that you would have orderly thoughts and can make sense of the world and their actual rules without a rule giver?

It's interesting that we would think that order would come out of complete chaos chaotically.

So I could see where presuppositional apologetics, or by what standard kind of apologetics, if we might say it that way, comes into play.

I think too, if you're of the reformed persuasion, we are committed to a specific understanding of anthropology, meaning that man is dead in his sins and trespasses.

So there's not going to be this neutral ground that we can say, okay, let's set aside all these presuppositions that we have, just start with our own reasons and begin there.

We know the deeper truth that the unbeliever is walking in the futility of their mind, and they hate

God. So the only way to rescue them out of that is point them to the truth of who

Jesus Christ is, and they need forgiveness of sin. And I believe it's Proverbs 1 verse 7 that says, it's the fear of the

Lord, revering God on high, that is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise such things.

And not to be mean saying a fool, but you are morally bankrupt. You can't account for truth.

You are a fool trying to make sense in this world if you deny the Creator that gave you meaning and purpose in this life.

Yeah. Yeah, man. And with that too, having a biblical anthropology and a biblical knowledge of who we are as people, which is apart from Christ dead in our sin and slaves of sin, we can assume going into any interaction with any person that they are a worshiper either of Christ or they are an idolater.

And so getting back to presupposing you have a foundation. No one is neutral.

You know that the person at the barbecue or wherever is worshiping something or someone, maybe themselves.

Maybe they're kind of their own God. Has that played into a lot of your conversations just with people in life where you can use that sort of an anthropology to get to the point more quickly or it helps you out?

Yeah. Really, just a day or so ago, I was speaking with a gentleman that he's a little embarrassed because, you know, in the

South, everyone's kind of religious and goes to church, but he's very transparent and just like, Jeremiah, I'll be honest,

I'm agnostic. I've kind of been spinning my wheels. He said, you know,

I feel like I can just walk outside and I can feel the wind hit my skin. He's like,

I just don't feel like I have to thank God anymore. I can just experience them. One of my basic questions was, well,

I wanted to affirm, man, we can feel so many things that happen that make us happy, that make us sad.

And I wanted to kind of quickly move to the question of kind of morality, though, the standard of ought, like you said, by what standards.

So I wanted to ask, we started saying, hey, and I want to give credit where credit is due because me and you understand we are talking to another image bearer.

There are things that are going to resonate between both of us. So they're going to get some things right. They're going to get a lot of things right.

And I just want to encourage people, affirm those things, affirm that inner imago day, that image bearingness that they have and you have.

So let's get give them some props there. Man, we walk outside and we get a breath of fresh air.

That's awesome, right? Then when we start to interact with one another, my big question is, why do you think

Mr. Agnostic in a nice way? I just want to say, why do you think we have such a compulsion to want to treat one another with kindness, dignity and respect?

Where do you where do you think that comes from? Well, agnostics are committed to one central thing. I don't know.

You know what I mean? And you ask an agnostic enough questions. You can either voice it to them or they'll feel it themselves.

But that's not a workable worldview for knowledge, truth and giving account for the interactions that we have.

And so I think this precept kind of does two things. You want to vindicate the Christian worldview that has the answers.

Right. And we also want to show the futility of worldviews that are built on sinking sand.

You don't have to do it and be a jerk, but just ask the questions of where the odds are of how our experience or theories of knowledge, does it actually correspond with how we live?

Because if there's a big enough disconnect, they're going to feel like, OK, yeah, that that theory doesn't work like agnosticism.

That theory is bankrupt very quickly because it's going to tell you things like, well, the only thing that I know is

I know nothing. And you're like, oh, that's actually a contradiction. You know what I mean? You said you know something.

Exactly. And all worldviews will kind of turn inward on themselves at some point, right?

Because the truth will vindicate itself. And so everything is ultimately grounded in God.

But when you lose that foundation, you are going like like the proverb says, fools despise knowledge and wisdom.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that does get to a sort of a little offshoot.

I suppose we can keep this grounded in biblical knowledge in terms of just the idea of talking about the faith and contending for the faith.

Most of the time, for the vast majority of us, probably 99 % of the settings, just in informal times rubbing shoulders with people.

But there is this concept of scripture of not casting your pearls before swine when someone is just completely closed off and mocking.

Has that come up in your work as maybe an evangelist or pastor where you just have to say,

I've given a defense. I can't logic someone to faith in Christ because it's a heart issue that God works through the mind, of course.

But have you hit that plenty of times? Oh, yeah. Yeah. My big red flag is when

I repeatedly have had trying to talk with somebody and they are taking that as an opportunity just to relentlessly mock

God, Jesus Christ. And I'm like, yeah, we tried. You know what I mean?

And I can still pray for them and that they know where to reach me. But yeah, the moment that I'm throwing the gospel pearl to someone it's not only pricking their conscience and making them mad.

But in return, they're mocking the Lord that I adore. You got to be prayerful about that.

Usually for me, that's when I'm looking to kind of bow out. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a reason

I ask is, yeah, there's just definitely scriptural evidence. We have to take it with wisdom and pray that the

Lord might reveal that balance for us. But there's tons of scriptural evidence where at some point you shake your dust off your feet as Jesus instructed the disciples and you move to the next person or as they did town and see what the

Lord might do. One good conversation starter.

So yeah, I think we're not neutral when we're talking with unbelievers. Jesus said, you're either with me or against me.

So I just like we understand we have different. We honestly understand everything in life just altogether different because it's all we understand how everything is tethered back to the

Creator. And for them, it's ultimately trying to stem back to chaos and doesn't work. But one thing

I notice is unbelievers a lot of times will have a different definition of faith than we do.

For them, faith is like, well, when there's not enough evidences, I just take a blind leap.

I want something to be true. Oh, well, that's faith. The more absurd it is, then the more faith it requires.

And for Christians, this is why I'm unashamedly presuppositional because I get to just say, oh, well, let me tell you my understanding as a

Christian of what that term means. So once again, the precept is trying to do two things, vindicate the

Christian worldview and ask questions enough for the unbelieving worldview or give them enough rope to essentially hang themselves by asking a lot of questions that they really are like, yeah,

I don't know. Or yeah, that doesn't really make sense and work. And so with the Christian understanding of the word faith,

I go all the way back to Hebrews 11 verse 1. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

And so the key term that I want to highlight is assurance or substance of things hoped for.

And I quickly say for the Christian, our faith is a hope that's not something that's uncertain, but is certain that God will accomplish all that he said that he will do in his promises.

And so, for example, Hebrews 11 verse 3 says, by faith we understand.

So what makes reason, wisdom, truth, understanding make sense is if we have faith in our reasoning ability that the universe was created by the word of God.

So my point is we all are attempting to be reasonable, rational, to have understanding, right?

We have that. But something that's more basic than that is we have faith that that's going to work, but that exists in a worldview where God sustains the universe by the word of his power.

What I'm getting at is faith should be in the thing that is most rational, most logically consistent, and you can't find a better foundation than the

God who cannot lie and has actually revealed himself to us. And that's the thing

I would tell people. Put your faith in that God who's revealed himself. And Jesus says that he's ultimately come, and he has revealed the

Father, and he's the way, the truth, and the life. So does that make sense? I want to make sure the secular person doesn't get to invent their own definition of faith.

We get to say, no, that firm trust is in the most solid foundation and anchor for your soul, which is

God. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Because I think, you know, when I think about,

I just had a conversation a week, week and a half ago with a couple of, one friend and someone

I just met. But basically, the idea of faith presented was grasping for something you have no idea about, kind of a blind faith, but it's better to have this sort of an idea than hopelessness, basically.

And the way the Bible presents faith is not that at all. It's grounded in the faith once and for all delivered.

It's content that's actually true based on a God who is presented as real, who truly gave his

Son, who came at space -time history. So, it's grounded in fact. And you're saying the

God who's presented in this book is always presented as faithful, always comes through for his people, delivered his

Son to death for sin, brought him to life, and so on and so forth, and promises he will come again.

He gave us this book that's lasted thousands of years and has changed the lives of so many. It's not some groundless faith, but it's very grounded.

It's the most grounded. Yeah, because people will say, well, you can't see God. You don't know that he exists, not like your spouse or your friends.

I'm like, I'm so certain in God's existence that I couldn't exist unless this particular

God didn't firstly exist. And so, that's what we're wanting to point people to is he is the very ground of our being,

Acts 17, Hebrews 1. This is the kind of God that sustains the universe by the word of his power.

And so, we live and move and have our being. We exist because he has eternally existed. Yeah, and I think a good point comes out of that when you're just,

I suppose, talking about all this. When it comes to this idea of defending and contending for the faith, it's not like you're just contending for as we might think would be a good thing, but not the best thing in our culture.

You're not just contending for God exists or a deity exists, or perhaps deities exist.

You are contending for the one true God and the only system and foundation of which this all makes sense.

That's where you're coming from, ultimately, with apologetics. It's not just enough to say you dunked on an atheist.

Isn't it better to believe that there's a God? Yeah, and I also am honest with people.

My heart is captivated by Jesus Christ, what he has done for me on my behalf, what he has revealed to me in his word.

I looked at the triunity of our Creator, Father, Son, and Spirit. My heart is anchored there.

I say this to be funny a little bit, but I tell people I'm the most closed -minded individual you will ever meet, and yet I'm open to talk about whatever you want.

That's a good thing to lure someone in, in a good way.

It's a good conversation starter. Because if you've seen—and this is huge—if you've seen and tasted that the

Lord is gracious, then where else can you point them to? Now, I want to be charitable, and I want to let them ask me questions, them explain to me things.

I want to be respectful to another image -bearer of God, but there's only one person that I care about that tells me how

I ought to live my life, and he's my Lord and Savior. I can't be unborn again out of that mindset.

Now, that doesn't mean I can't listen to online atheists and jump into the Discord servers and have challenging questions, but I'll tell you this,

John. All the hard questions that exist out there that I have pursued and looked into the

Word of God and sought after wise counsel, I've always been blown away that me and you,

John, we stand on the shoulders of giants, and there's really nothing new under the sun at this point.

We have something like the internet that's double -edged sword, if we're honest. I mean, it's Satan's playground, and yet there's also just so much wonderful resources at our disposal.

I let people know my heart is captivated in giving God glory.

When you've seen these things, you're not interested in leaving that, if that makes sense. 100%.

Absolutely. When you've been changed, that's one thing, not to get too into the weeds, not to get off subject, but we're talking about the idea of being saved and then losing that salvation.

Bro, not if we take a step back and realize what we are saying has happened to a person, if they are truly saved.

They've been changed from within by the power of God, by the supernatural working of the

Holy Spirit. They've been given a new nature, and they've been given the promise of the Spirit who will give them desire to follow

God. They are not falling away from that. But if we don't take it that way and just take it as I just made some decision, here's the new step

I'm going in. Well, yeah, maybe you could lose that because it's all man -centered. It's all what

I can do. You mentioned—I think this would be helpful for those that end up watching this—Acts 17.

You specifically mentioned Acts 17. What about Acts 17 is potentially a good—there's a lot good with it—but a good model of apologetics at work practically in the

Scriptures? Well, thank you for that set up, because Acts 17—for one, the book of Acts is incredible because it's telling us a story about the early church, and so we can glean so many good principles from what we're reading, and we always want to be mindful to interpret

Acts in light of the epistles, right? That's good hermeneutics. But something that we observe with the apostle all throughout

Acts 17, he begins at Thessalonica, and it says that he went to the synagogues on the

Sabbath and reasoned with the Jews from the Scriptures. He reasoned with them that it was necessary that the

Messiah suffer and die and be resurrected. I'm like, that sounds like solo scriptura, you know what

I mean? Then he got essentially persecuted for that, and he went to a place of Berea, and then we see that they tested the teachings of the apostle

Paul to see the things that he said were true. I always tell people, if you could just take someone's word for it, the apostle

Paul would probably be a good person to be like, okay, that sounds good. Not the Jews at Berea the

Scripture calls noble or fair -minded. That means that they were focused on God's truth.

They even tested what the apostle Paul said with the Hebrew Scriptures, and they understood, man, he's giving us truth because it corresponds with God's Word.

So Paul goes to Athens, Greece, and he goes to Mars Hill or the Areopagus where there's a lot of philosophers.

You have Epicureans and Stoic. These philosophies vehemently oppose the resurrection of the dead.

They believe in a pantheon of deities, plural, and their whole the gods.

They don't care about human affairs, and so if they don't care about human affairs, there's not going to be a judgment, and so if they're not worried about these things, neither should we.

Paul does a few different things in this whole—we won't read the whole thing, but I'll just encourage our audience to go read

Acts 17, because when Paul's talking, he quotes one of their philosophers and says, in God, the

Creator God, we live as people. We live and move and have our being, and his whole point is our existence is dependent on God's eternal existence.

Even pagans understand that there must be a Creator when pressed enough, but I do want to back up, because even though there was multiple deities in this, they still had an altar to the unknown

God, and we talk about apologetics. Paul saw this as an opportunity to say, oh, that God that you don't give an account for, that you don't know may exist,

I know who that one is, and he's actually the one who created the heavens and the earth, and I just thought, what a good model of saying when you see that gaping hole in someone's worldview, that's where we can come in and just show the beauty of how

God in his revelation gives us truth, gives us knowledge of how we ought to live our lives in relation to one another and to God.

Yeah, and it's interesting, by the way. There's so much for me to continually learn from just Acts 17, and particularly that section with Paul in front of the philosophers and the

Stoics, and those who have this altar to the unknown God. But one thing that's interesting that you keep mentioning that might be surprising to people when they think about theology or apologetics or going to church or whatever it is, is you have not mentioned much about shoving down throat, you've mentioned beauty a lot of times.

That's interesting to me that that's the word that keeps coming to mind when you're talking about this idea of defending the faith.

I think on a surface level, I'm probably guilty of this. I think of it as cold debate.

Bring the sword out. Destroy that guy over there or whatever it is, but you seem to be saying no, no, not even out there.

My heart, and I think I'm talking with other image bearers. They can't help to be image bearers. That's the truth.

That's the reality. I want to share with them things that are good, right, beautiful, and that's going to resonate with their soul.

Another question I ask people is, how do you deal with your guilt? If you're not looking to Christ and faith alone, then

I know you feel that. Now, Scripture does talk about how people are self -deceived and sear their consciences with hot iron, but I know that they have a guilty conscience.

I know that they're turning to all these vices, these other things that does not give them peace.

We have a peace that surpasses all understanding. I want to point them back to those things that are good, that are beautiful and true and let the

Word of God convict. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment. It doesn't take long just to present to them biblical principles, not book, chapter, and verse.

We're talking about Acts 17, and we didn't have to actually reference any particular verse. That's good for the

Christian to know where Scripture is located. King David meditated on the law of the

Lord day and night. As newborn babes, we essentially are being fed by the

Word of God. I want to present those beautiful principles to people. Yeah.

If we're looking at Acts 17, Paul is presenting beautiful truth there, but even in that, he's saying that, hey, you guys are worshiping a false

God. The truth, even when you're presenting beauty and you're not trying to be cold and you're not condescending all this, naturally, there's still going to be that sword factor of God's truth penetrating.

You're right. Towards the end of his speech here, he kind of brings up the gospel message.

It wasn't book, chapter, and verse. Maybe he was with the Jews at Berea and Thessalonica, no doubt going to Psalm 16, showing that the resurrection was always prophesied, but with these pagans, he really appeals to that imago

Dei. This is another thing. The law of God is written on the heart. We know we are morally accountable to our

Creator, and he talks about the judgment one day that there will be a resurrection of the dead.

You got to think that inside. It goes on to say many people went away and mocked him and turned to him more, but then there were others that believed and wanted to hear more about this

Jesus that he was sharing. I just thought that's, once again, the beauty of God's Word. When it goes forth, it will always accomplish that which is intended for some, an aroma of life, and then some for aroma of death.

With us being Reformed, we trust God and his absolute sovereignty in those things.

Yeah, and you do bring up—you brought up a couple things that I think are very helpful just on the practical level for just a person who's a

Christian. If we want to dwindle this down, we are simply seeking to be a solid witness for Christ.

That's ultimately defending and contending for—we're taking fancy terms out of it. I am simply seeking to present

Christ faithfully and have a reason for that.

But when we're talking about Paul with—oh, go ahead.

Because I love apologetics. I love the debate, getting into logical propositions and showing internal defeaters and all that stuff.

But in the real flow of every day -to -day life, what Paul says in 2

Timothy chapter 2, starting verse 24, is super practical. Is it okay if I share this real quick?

Yeah, go for it. This isn't for the elitist. It isn't for the pastors out there or the deep theologians.

This says, as the Lord's servant, all Christians must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach patiently, enduring evil, meaning you get ready to be mocked, get ready to be ridiculed.

They hated Jesus. They're going to hate his followers. But patiently endure this.

Expect it. In your mind, think, Christ said this would happen, right?

And then he says, correcting his opponents with the gentleness. So we stand on truth.

Thy word is truth. We absorb the blows that they say because no doubt their consciences will get pricked.

But you are the means that Paul goes on to say that God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

And then, last verse here in this passage, we're reminded that there's a spiritual warfare, right? Our battle is not against other people, flesh and blood, but there is a kingdom of darkness afoot, right?

And so I just got done preaching a couple weeks ago about ultimately spiritual warfare is a battleground for truth.

It's not over earthly made weapons and those things, but our weapons of divine power are love, forgiveness, and ultimately it boils down to truth, what

God has equipped the saint with because, last verse here, and they may come out of their senses and escape the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.

And if we have truly been transformed by the gospel of grace, then you realize you can't, not with your sophisticated, logical reasoning with, you know, by what standard and dismantling the unbelieving worldview.

No, it's the gospel. It's you preaching the gospel and they seeing that that same gospel has transformed you.

That is the means that God may perhaps then grant them repentance to change their mind and understand these deep truths.

Yeah, that's a good reminder. You mentioned earlier the state of mankind apart from Christ born dead in sin, born enslaved to sin, born under the guilt of their sin, guilt under God.

And then you mentioned basically as a reminder, because of that, this is spiritual warfare that we're dealing with.

We're dealing with a reality in which the world system and people in the world are under basically the power and control of satanic influence.

And apart from the work of Christ, they are haters of God. And all people who are Christians were once there.

And the only reason we can say we're not is because of Christ pulling us out.

The only point I was going to make about you speaking about Acts 17 is I think you gave two practical principles for just the everyday

Christian. Number one, what was Paul always moving to? It's kind of what you said when you went to 2 Corinthians.

He's doing all of this to get to the good news of Christ, basically, so that some might be saved.

Some would reject and hate him, like you said, expect it, don't crave it, but know that it's going to happen.

And then when you mentioned, so that's number one is he's getting to the gospel. Number two is you mentioned the different kind of groups of people, right?

You've got more of a Jewish audience, maybe more of a Gentile and philosophy -minded audience. And the second account, he doesn't ever sacrifice the message, the central message of who

God is and what he has done for sinners in Christ. But he does address different areas and maybe starts at a little bit of a different starting ground to address a foundation and then launches.

Is that fair to say? That's fair to say, because even he's adopting the vernacular of the pagan world, he's never leaving the principles that have been revealed to us from God's word.

So it's never compromised. What you see is a change in vernacular. So Paul is becoming all things to all people that he may win some with the gospel, because like what you're saying, it's the gospel.

That's the power of God that's going to transform and save somebody. And so I think asking questions is a good thing.

To people, that way you can kind of better figure out how to communicate to them where they're at.

That is the task of an apologist, to be a good communicator, because if you're an apologist just to destroy arguments, you've missed it altogether.

The heart of an apologist should be to evangelize well and trust God with the increase.

Yeah. Because again, like you said, destroying arguments,

Paul mentions that, destroying, I think, lofty arguments and everything that brings itself against God.

But that's not the end. That's the means to the end that you've mentioned, which is presenting

Christ crucified so that he might save some. And that's the heart. That's the beauty and the heart that you've been talking about this whole time is you're not here to just own someone, quote unquote, totally owned him in that debate or whatever it was.

Because when Paul says that in 2 Corinthians 10, he's talking about the reality of spiritual warfare is how we take every thought captive to obey

Christ. That same human writer, Paul, said, speak the truth in love. So those thoughts are never divorced from themselves.

And yet there will be those contexts where you do need to rebuke people that contradict sound doctrines, sound teaching, never from a place of being mean or a place of being vindictive or hostile.

It's always in love, right? And so even Jesus, John the Baptist, said very harsh language because of the gravity of what pagan ideas, pagan philosophy is at stake, right?

It's misleading people, though. That's the instrumentation in the hands of Satan. Satan cannot contend against one thing, and it's truth.

Amen. Amen, brother. Well, I don't know about you, but I've certainly made missteps and mistakes and plenty of gaffes over the years in plenty of areas in life.

But I'm sure when speaking about God and my hope in Christ, that also happens.

With you having more experience probably than the average Christian in this type of area, are there any pitfalls that you've fallen into before that you think would be good to tell others who watch this about?

Common pitfalls that maybe you've fallen into as well. That you've never fallen into again,

I'm sure. Well, the first one that comes to mind pertains to what we've already been talking about.

I feel the temptation in my flesh to want to crush people and win an argument. And that's not the point.

Yes, I've been through the cage stage when it comes to other doctrines, the doctrines of grace.

I tell people those are doctrines of love, right? But when you first are familiar with these apologetics, these theologies, well, it's almost like a hammer, and then you see everything as a nail, and so you're just wanting to go and smash everything in.

And that's not the point. So my big pitfall is sometimes in my flesh, wanting to win arguments and getting someone to cry uncle, cry for mercy.

That's not the heart. And so I pray that when people watch my debates, I want it to be kind, I want it to be loving,

I want it to be firm. But I also want for them to see, man, that was a good interaction with another image bearer, even if they're lost, promoting a false gospel.

I never want to attack the person. I always want to attack the doctrine. So that's kind of number one.

That's been the big pitfalls in the past is just wanting to argue and debate for the sake of arguing and debate.

That's vain. That's empty. That is futile. So here is my big recommendation for everybody, something that's been just meant an absolute world to me, is be plugged into a healthy church.

Be a member, a covenant member of a plurality of undershepherds that can shepherd your soul.

Be a part of a church that believes both in sound doctrine, theological expository preaching, where everything flows from, but also a church that's going to cultivate gospel culture, sound theology, orthodoxy, but then also has the means for orthopraxy, areas of fellowship that will transform your life, seeing other saints relate to you and relate in front of you, and all that's going to feed each other and hold you accountable.

You got to have that accountability in your life. Absolutely. Yeah. Because that's the means that God has given us.

That's the institution that God has commanded that those who associate with Christ be a part of a local congregation.

I have zero respect for an online Christian apologist that's not a member of a church.

That is somebody that doesn't want authority in their life. Perhaps they want some type of recognition and all these things.

That's not doing what God prescribed, like you said, and you're not going to have the necessary fuel to continue to contend for the faith the way that God has prescribed.

So I just can't overemphasize that enough, John, is being a member of a healthy church.

If people are interested, if they go over to the Apologetic Dog, I have a playlist of 10 elements of a healthy church that we preach through, and hopefully that would be really invaluable for people to check out.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a helpful resource for anyone, including myself, to view.

So appreciate that. It kind of transitions a bit into—so that was a bit of a negative, right, of things to avoid.

Are there, and it kind of got us to positive, be a member of a local church, Christ Church.

Are there two or three, it could be overarching principles in life, or it could be literally like little phrases or ideas that has helped you be an informal apologist?

I don't know if you can understand what I'm asking, but like a by -what standard kind of an idea. Anything that's kind of like, oh, this has really helped me.

This is a hack. Yeah. I was going to say, Proverbs chapter 9 talks about the difference between wisdom, being wise, and being a fool.

I was going to read maybe a small passage from there real quick, because there is something concise that I think about all the time.

And so let's see, Proverbs 9, starting in verse 8, Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you.

Reprove a wise—this is key—reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will still be wiser.

Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. The fear of Yahweh, the fear of the Lord, is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the

Holy One is insight. My point is, be a learner. Never stop learning.

Don't see criticism as a bad thing. Look at it like sunflower seeds.

Take in the good, spit out the bad. A lot of times you may see a lot of bad, but realize you're still learning something.

Even if it's, I don't want to be like that, or what was said, or I disagree, but be a critical thinker.

The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind.

We are to be thinking theologians and constantly thinking critically, being prayerful in our heart, thinking

God's thoughts after Him. I just can't emphasize enough, John. Be a learner.

Always learning until we pass from this life to the next. Does that kind of make sense?

I played sports growing up. I have a tinge of dyslexia. I've made all the excuses in the world not to read and go play ball and all this stuff.

My favorite activity, John, is to get a cup of coffee and spend time in God's Word and have all my books from saints of old that are just pouring into me.

I love it. I want to learn now. There are so many tools and resources at our disposal.

In my mind, there's no excuses. I know them all. Yeah, yeah.

No, that's a great point. Continue to be a learner and know that the

Lord is never going to stop. This is part of sanctification for the

Christian, becoming more like Christ. God works on the whole man, including our mind.

We're transformed by the renewing of our mind, naturally, too. I think you would amen this.

That's going to lead to a transformation of the inner man as a whole.

God's going to work on our heart. That is going to flow into our speech and actions. You are going to learn and grow in loving your neighbor more clearly through being a learner.

It's not just some academic endeavor. Now, for some pithy things like you're saying, by what standard?

That's powerful because where do you get aughts from? Where do you get morality, ethics? Well, by what standard?

Ultimately, it has to be grounded in God. Some other things that I've tried to reflect on a little bit is all truth is

God's truth. I've tried to think through the presuppositional method and how can

I teach this to students at 12 .5? I just try to say you need the one who knows all things that sees the whole in order to give us a part.

We exist with a finite perspective. We can't see the whole. That's important for getting truth.

You need a universal perspective. I thought I had something pithy with that, but anyway, all truth is

God's truth. Maybe to finish your thought, I don't know.

This hasn't maybe helped in necessarily conversation. It's helped me not feel like I'm insane in this world.

That is because people are image bearers and because God has, like you said, all truth is

God's truth. By nature of God's common grace, making people image bearers, they are going to do things, sinners or Christ's people, that create order, seek after beauty, will naturally have some destructive tendencies, for example, in those things because of the presence of sin and our fallen nature in a fallen world.

But when I see, for example, an unbeliever doing incredibly intelligent things and knowing things about physics or knowing things about managing finances or things about raising a family that are years and levels over me,

I can remember, oh yeah, that's because all truth is God's truth. Anything that is right and true and good is only because God has actually kind of knit those principles into the fabric of reality.

I don't know if that's what you're going for, but that helps me make sense of the whole world and not go insane where I'm like, how did that happen?

Oh, that's right, because God created this world this way. Even though sin has marred everything, men still bear

God's image. Therefore, we will see these patterns even in horrendous cultures and societies.

Those are two big takeaways I would encourage people is to have your heart and mind continually renewed with God's truth, but you must be anchored in a healthy church.

I promise people it's all for naught. If you want to go the straight academic route and do all these things, you are going to be only accomplishing half of the

Christian walk. We were not made to be rogue soldiers, but the saints are to be marching in together.

I believe it's Ephesians chapter 3 that says the church is the manifold wisdom on display crushing essentially the rulers and principalities of this world.

Christ has put them through an open shame. How? Through the church. That's the mystery of Christ revealed reconciling

Jew and Gentile by faith alone and Christ alone. So I can't overemphasize that point enough.

Then, yeah, as you continue to delve deeper into the realm of apologetics, there's a litany of just resources out there that can kind of—like we've been talking about—classical apologetics, evidential apologetics, presuppositional apologetics.

I mean, it's as much and as deep as you want to go into it. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, you're always teaching me something. I have one thing, one piece of wisdom for you that came to mind as you were giving these, and that is this.

If you're in a conversation with someone, Jeremiah, you've said all these good things. I've learned one thing not to do.

When you're backed into a corner, do not tell someone, oh yeah, well, yo mama, because that will either

A, end the conversation, or B, open a can of worms. Tried it in my younger days. Trust me, you don't want to be bringing that to one of your debates or your barbecues, whatever you have.

So in case you didn't know that one. Yeah, well, I'll tell you this real quick. My email address growing up was yo mama 246.

Terrible mistake. I'd be out, appointments to places and say, hey, what's your email address?

I'm like, oh, I'll write it down. They're like, no, no, I'll write it for you. And I'm like, Y -O -M -O -M -M -A.

And they're like, did you just say yo mama 246? And I'm like, what have I done? Why was

I 12 years old with an email address or whatever it was? Okay. Good to know. Good to know.

So I'm in good company here. I think with this conversation,

I really do appreciate everything. I hope that overall, if people take away one thing from this, it is that essentially all of the fluffy terms, while they're helpful to know and grow and understand, even if we don't have those, hopefully that definition of apologetics that you gave is a helpful reminder.

It's defense of the faith, contending for the faith, and ultimately, we're just seeking to be faithful witnesses of Christ and teach and share

His gospel. If I can encourage your audience, you will mess up, and that's okay.

We are but broken jars of clay, as the Apostle Paul would put it.

And so God's glory has to shine through us. And I almost look forward to see how

I'll mess up, because I want to always be learning, so I don't want to just mess up for the sake of messing up.

I know it's going to happen. That's a part of our sanctification, becoming less like the world and becoming conformed more into the image of Christ.

And so that's just as true in your apologetics and evangelism. And my point is, it's okay.

God's the one that gives the increase. Yeah, absolutely. Well, my friend, you seem to definitely sort of implement the truth and love reality of this, well, the

Christian life, but also in this particular area well, because it would be very easy the more and more knowledge you gain to just smack people over the head and miss the whole point.

But I think you've continued on the right course, and so I want to commend you for that.

Pray for me. Like you're saying, knowledge puffs up, right? It's just a noisy gong.

But man, since we're made in God's image, if you truly care about someone, if you truly love them, that will shine through.

They, as another image -bearer, will feel that. Even when you're expressing the hard truths about judgment and so forth, like the

Apostle Paul, there are people, there are remnant that will hear that and be like, he's right. I'm going to stand guilty on Judgment Day.

And so you just, you got to get to the core of the gospel, but you got to do it in a way that they see, wow, that he's speaking from experience, right?

He has been transformed. He is a mere beggar that's found bread and just trying to share that with others. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, brother, thank you so much for your time. And I know you mentioned the 10,

I think it was 10 part series of teachings about 10 marks of the healthy church, which

I can certainly link that in the bottom of the video. Is there anything else that I could send people's way, a debate coming up or anything like that?

Oh yeah, last time you gave me four plugs, didn't you? Yeah, you get four on this channel. I think you've had one so far.

Okay. Let's see. I think it's August 23rd.

I'll be doing a two -on -two debate on the gospel truth hosted by Marlon Wilson, me and my friend, the fishbone,

Trey Fisher. We will be facing off against two church Christ on baptism. You got to go check that out.

I know that's going to be an incredible time. And then in February, I know this is a long ways off, but I'm also,

I'm speaking at a conference. Keith Bosky will be there, someone that you know. This year, instead of me speaking at the pre -conference and giving a sermon slash lecture,

I will be actually participating in a debate in front of a live, big audience.

I'm actually taking Dr. James White's place this go around. He's got a lot of things on his agenda.

So it's an incredible honor to be standing firm in the gospel of grace. And I believe the debate will be on if a believer can lose their salvation or not.

Oh, wow. Okay, man. Well, be praying for you for that.

Yeah, I know that obviously Dr. White has done so many debates, but it definitely sounds like you're going in with the right mentality and everything.

So yeah, I'll definitely link something below the video.

So thank you, brother. Appreciate it. I'm sure we'll see each other at some point or talk again at some point.

John, thanks for having me on. We'll have to do it again another time pretty soon. Absolutely. Thank you so much,