The Intent of the Atonement (Part 2)

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glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Mike Abendroth here.

We are in the posh studio of No Compromise

Radio, No Code Radio, with Pastor Steve Kuhlman.

He�s here.

He gets the good chair.

Yeah, really luxurious.

I think this was given to the Salvation Army 40 years ago, and here I

sit.

Steve, I have to get new furniture in here.

I just haven�t pulled the plug yet, but I should.

Is that how that phrase goes?

Pulling the plug?

Pull the trigger.

Yeah, okay.

Squeeze the trigger.

Pull the plug on the bad.

No, I�m pulling the plug on the bad furniture.

Okay, yeah.

And pulling the trigger on buying the new furniture.

Make it so.

Please.

Man, that�s awful.

Steve, you know, the bad news about convictions is they get in the way.

So I wish I could be like other people, you know.

We need some more furniture in the No Code studio.

We need some new headphones.

We need a new mixing board.

We need some better graphics.

You know, whatever it is, please send us money.

I could use that new computer.

We�ve established a special hotline, 1 -800 -FURNITURE, where you can.

� Uh -huh.

Hennoture. Hennoture.

And, you know, I wish I could say, you know, when I travel with No Code Radio, those kind of air books,

those Mac air books, you know.

I need one.

I know.

And then they would show up.

You know what I�m going to do today?

I want to take a picture of my chair and send it out over Twitter.

Maybe that�ll get some.

See, there�s ways to manipulate people.

How to get an air book.

What else do I need?

Don�t I need a Geneva Bible?

I almost bought one in the day.

Seriously, 25 years ago, they were probably a thousand bucks.

I almost did, but I didn�t have the thousand.

So I should have.

Now it�s probably worth a lot more.

Anything else you need?

I need a Geneva Bible and an air book.

More grandkids.

More grandkids.

Send me your grandkids, too.

You could write us, info at nocompromiseradio .com.

Still planning to go with Mike Gendron to Wittenberg, Zurich, and Geneva.

That is May 20th through 30th.

You can go there.

Are you going to be knocking on Wittenberg�s door?

You know what?

I think I am.

The old door was wood, and it�s since been replaced with this.

I don�t think it�s brass, but there�s some kind of metal -ish cover, and then it�s got the 95 Theses written, but I think

it�s in Deutsch.

And brass so that it hurts your hand.

So you can actually go to that church and go inside of it.

I think it�s still a practicing Roman Catholic church.

I mean, Luther went down the street after that all happened, but Wittenberg Church you can still go

to.

I think Luther is buried inside the church.

Inside the Roman Catholic Church?

Really?

Yeah.

Things I did not know.

Funky monkey.

That is funky.

I know.

I�m trying to think of the church� what was the name of his church down the street?

I don�t know.

It�s a different one.

Luther Memorial.

Oh, in the mail the other day, it was kind of Christmas for me.

I got Fesco�s.

I received Fesco�s Galatians Commentary in the new Lectio Continuum, kind of verse by verse

studies.

I like the Hebrews one, McWilliams.

And then I also received the Life and Legacy of Martin Luther, the R .C. Sproul Nichols edited

Ligonier, different chapters by each guy from Sinclair Ferguson, I think, to others.

And then I received Devoted to God or For God, Devoted Unto God, Sinclair Ferguson,

on sanctification.

I mean if anybody is going to get it right in the sanctification wars, I want to read Sinclair.

You hope he does it right.

I know.

And then who else?

What else did I get in the mail?

Some� Bills?

Yeah.

I did.

For a Geneva Bible and an AirBook, MacBook.

I think I'm getting one of the � my budget is ready to go for the church budget for my new AirBook.

I mean MacBook.

Woohoo!

Yeah, so I'm happy about that.

Yeah, I look forward to that.

We're talking about the atonement and its extent and intent.

Some people think Jesus died for everybody, every person.

That's unlimited atonement.

That would be general redemption.

Others think that he died just for the elect, the pride of Christ.

That's limited atonement in theological vernacular or definite atonement,

particular redemption.

And what you believe has consequences and so Steve, my question to you today as we continue to talk about the

atonement and its extent, would you ever say to someone on the street, Jesus

died for you?

When you're evangelizing, Jesus died for you.

Is that part of the presentation?

Steve Lankford.

I couldn't say that.

I mean, you know, here's the thing.

People will say, well, if you can't say that, then how can you evangelize?

And I would say, because Jesus died for people just like you, just like me.

I don't know if he died for you or not.

I would never say that.

But in my mind, I can't say Jesus died for you because I don't believe that.

I don't believe that to be true of every single person that I meet.

And therefore, I would say Jesus died for sin.

Jesus died for people like you and me.

You know, now, how do I know that Jesus died for them?

Well, I will know if they believe and, you know,

that's ultimately the proof.

But scripture never says that we should evangelize in that way.

And I wouldn't do that.

Steve, it seems to me that our evangelism has been so affected by modern

methods and how -tos and all these other things.

I was looking in Acts while you were talking, and I agree with what you said.

I would tell a Christian, Jesus died for you, because that's what Paul says as he's writing these epistles

and the rest of the New Testament writers.

And he demonstrates his own love toward us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

But when you look at evangelistic encounters in the New Testament, even with

Peter, I don't see Peter saying to people who aren't Christians.

Now, some of them, can we call them pre -Christians?

Just kidding.

Some of them are going to be Christians.

But why is it so bad that I can't say to somebody, Jesus particularly died for you?

Well, I don't see Peter saying that.

I don't see Paul saying that.

That's just not what they do.

There's a way to talk about the gospel and how God loves humans and God loves mankind and God

loves sinners, as Steve just said, just like you.

And here's Jesus's death on their behalf anyway.

Plus, it's a man -centered deal.

Oh, did he die for me in particular?

Now, let me talk to you about the death of Christ, this historical event with theological ramifications.

And when I was looking in second chapter of Acts, Steve, when they heard this, they were cut

to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, brothers, what shall we do?

Isn't that fascinating?

I mean, we're not talking about the atonement right now.

We're talking about evangelistic things in light of the atonement.

But did you tell people to repent?

Did you tell people to believe?

You're not preaching the gospel unless you did.

Okay, I think you should tell people your response should be repentance and belief.

Pete.

But here, they didn't even, here the preacher didn't even have to say that because they knew in light of this truth,

there has to be a response.

Pete.

But I think we live in an era of what I'm just framing this in my head, you know, the

democratic gospel, democratic small d, right? Where everyone is on the same

playing field, and everybody has the same opportunity, and everybody has the same chance, and God

gives everything to everyone exactly the same, and then he waits to see who's going

to respond to it.

And I think that's how a lot of people, I think that's how people approach this, that we're all in the same boat, we're on the same field, we're

all in the same plane, you know, etc., etc.

Well, here's the truth.

The truth is, God doesn't run a democracy.

You know, God is king.

You know, he decides what is going to happen, and it happens.

We never see where God says, you know what, my will is subservient, or my will is no

bigger than your will, you know?

That's not the way the Bible reads.

The Bible talks about a sovereign God, a king God, if you will.

Steve, I know we're the same age.

You are a little older than I am, but we're the same age, and I've always wondered why I was superior

to you.

You know, sometimes I think about it longer than others.

Birthright.

And, you know, I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ before you did.

Yes, you did.

Many years before you did.

And see, therefore, I analyzed the same natural revelation that you analyzed.

I analyzed the same data and all these things, and I came to faith first.

Well, you're obviously better, and I don't think there's anybody who wants to argue with that.

Isn't it interesting?

Of course, we have different backgrounds and everything else, but at the end of the day, people who go to heaven,

whose ultimate choice is it, right?

Who's first choice?

Who's the first chooser?

And it can't be found in humans.

It has to be found in God.

Because if it's found in us, then what does that say?

It's all back to merit and works.

And goodness, right?

And then it explodes what happened really in the garden when Adam fell.

My righteous choice.

My goodwill.

So let's get back to saying to people, Jesus died for you.

If somebody says that, I don't go over and correct them right away or something like that.

Pete.

Hey, buddy, that's biblically wrong.

Paul.

But I'm thinking, you know what?

They're coming from a theological position that is untenable in my mind when it comes to the Bible.

Pete.

Yes.

I mean, I don't know.

There are so many problem texts for someone who says that.

You know, I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Paul Yes, but for God so loved the world.

Pete.

Yes, that is so true.

But I mean, if you look at the context, anybody who's actually studied that and understands the

structure and everything else would never say, but that means that God loves everyone exactly the same and

gives everybody the same chance to be saved.

Paul.

Can Jesus die for someone and that person go to hell?

Paul.

I mean, let's just stop and think.

Maybe you're mad at us now and you're listening to this show and it's all this like hyper Calvinism stuff in your

mind.

Okay, Jesus dies for someone.

He pays the penalty for all that person's sin of omission, commission,

thoughts, words, and deeds, every law broken, he pays for.

How can that person then go to hell if there's nothing to pay for?

Isn't that double jeopardy?

Pete.

Well, yeah, it is.

The Bible in Romans 3 talks about,

we'll see in verses 24 and 25 talking about

sinners that have fallen short of the glory of God in verse 24, and are justified by his grace as a gift through the

redemption that is in Christ Jesus whom God put forth as a propitiation by his blood,

by his death to be received by faith.

This was to show God's righteousness, etc., etc., etc.

So, here's my question.

Propitiation means satisfaction.

The wrath of God is satisfied.

It's set aside.

So, if Jesus Christ propitiated the wrath of God for someone, how could they

then go to hell?

In other words, on the cross, he satisfied the wrath of God for an individual,

and then that individual then suffers the wrath of God for what?

And God the Father says, I'm satisfied, and then when they say, I won't believe,

now he's not satisfied.

He takes it back.

He goes back on his word.

He discounts the death of his son, his beloved son.

Paul Steve, that's a good point because you think, okay, this is such a great thing that Jesus has done.

If then people can go to hell, it's not so great.

In other words, to make it more particular, more clarified, if Jesus dies for you and you still go to hell,

then how great really was the death of Christ?

I just, I think, I think, well, I've got the quote in front of me with B .B. Warfield.

The things we have to choose between are an atonement of high value or an atonement of wide extension.

The two cannot go together.

I mean, if you want to say that he died for everyone, and then you want to say that somehow those people can still go to hell,

well, you've got all kinds of problems because somehow the father is displeased with the son

in whom he is well -pleased.

You know, he didn't really accept that payment.

I mean, that's, you have the persons of the Trinity working against one another, working in

disharmony.

Jesus dying for people that the father never intended to save or ultimately won't,

you know, accept the payment for it.

It's just, I don't even understand it.

I mean, you could go to Ephesians 1, you could look at what it says about the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Well, the seal gets put on those people and then they don't believe?

You know, how does that even work?

It doesn't even make sense.

Peter Steve, when you were talking earlier, it made me think of the whole idea of, all right, here's the

atonement.

Here's this great death of Christ.

You use the words in Ephesians and elsewhere that were past tense, speaking of

the atonement.

In him, we have redemption.

That's present tense, actually.

Or he redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Or here in Romans, what was the passage?

Pete Romans 3, where it says that he was put forward as a propitiation by the law.

Peter.

Okay, so he's put forward as a propitiation.

And then we've got language of reconciliation.

He's reconciled us.

All language of accomplishment, of actually having done the work.

Past tense, if you'd like.

Finished with ongoing effects.

Present tense, if you'd like, theologically.

The Arminian, though, the unlimited atonement person has to say, Jesus made all these things possible.

It was like a kinetic energy actualized almost upon belief or something like that.

Tell our listeners a little bit about how it's important to use the language of Scripture that is accomplished fact versus

potentiality.

Pete.

Well, because the Bible never talks about a potential atonement.

It never makes it contingent.

You know, I mean, and if we just think in terms of, you know, I'm going to really get

controversial here.

If we just think about in terms of new covenant, right?

What is a covenant?

It's a contract, and a contract that is sealed in the blood of Jesus, meaning

that's how seriously it's taken, that God has put himself, as it were, on the line in this new

covenant.

Well, how would we get out of a new covenant?

How would we break?

How could we break the new covenant where it says, you know, he will be our God and we will be his

people, and then all of a sudden we decide, no, we're not going to be his people?

Well, I know how the unlimited people answered some of this stuff, but I don't think they can see

how inconsistent it is.

Pete.

It's very inconsistent.

Mark.

So they'll say something like this, and I want to represent them well.

I just want to tell them I think they're just, you know, stone -cold Steve Austin wrong.

Pete Well, that's a little bit stronger than misguided.

Mark.

Yeah, they're so broken and wounded they can't see past themselves.

But what happens is they'll say, all right, Jesus died for everybody, and then, you know, the people have

to believe, right?

So that you have to believe.

And of course, you do have to believe.

But somehow I think they're forgetting that unbelief is a sin.

So remember, Jesus, when he dies for sinners, he dies for every one of their sins, including

the sin of unbelief.

I hope that's true.

I'm betting my eternal life on it because I didn't believe for a long time, and it's a sin not to

take God at his word.

Pete Yeah, so who dies for the many, many years of unbelief?

You know, Jesus did, or I have to pay for that somehow.

Mark.

That's exactly right.

The unlimited atonement person is thinking, he squares up the playing field.

Now the ball's in your court, and now it's your turn to believe.

And they confuse the response of belief that has to go that is

the non -meritorious instrument of saving faith, right?

Belief.

I think that's the right way to say it.

Jesus dies for unbelief too, my friend.

He didn't make propitiation possible.

He propitiated for our sins.

Pete.

And it's not, you know, they act as if it's a button that we have to activate or something like that, and nothing could be

further from the truth.

God, you know, it's God who caused us to be born again.

It's the Holy Spirit that causes regeneration.

We see this over and over and over again in Scripture.

There's no escaping.

In fact, I don't want to escape the sovereignty of God in salvation.

And you can't have a sovereign God who doesn't have a

definite redemption, who doesn't have a purposeful atonement.

You can't – the two are incongruous.

They're – they don't meet up.

They're, you know, irreconcilable.

Mark.

Steve, it was several months ago, I know, but you were preaching in John, John 6.

All that the Father gives me will come to me.

Okay, so let's work backwards.

We know the atonement in its application.

Even the unlimited people will believe that it's only applied our only believers

go to heaven, right?

So that's right.

So they're thinking that way.

So then how do they work this out?

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out.

Pete.

Well, I could tell you what they do is they.

Focus on the last part of it, right?

Mark Yeah, that's right.

Pete.

On the whoever comes, there you have it.

Whoever comes.

Mark.

Of course, whoever comes.

We're not – that's not part of the discussion, though.

Well, what if they say, well, what about 2 Peter 2?

We're not talking about that.

We're talking about this right now.

Can you imagine?

In eternity past, the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

Let's go have – let's show how gracious and loving we are.

Go, Son, and rescue the elect for me.

Transform them into image bearers of yourself, and then give them back to me.

You know, that type of thought there when it comes to the covenant of redemption.

Jesus isn't going to go say, oh, by the way, the Father elects the some, not the all.

The Holy Spirit, and even our Unlimited Atonement friends would believe, the

Spirit only regenerates some, right?

So, the Father says, go, I'm going to elect some, not all.

The Spirit of God regenerates some, not all.

But the Son says, you know what?

I'm going to go die for them all.

Mark.

Yeah, I mean, it almost sounds like, well, yeah, I mean, it sounds like we're having too much fun, but I mean, there's an

you can't have an incoherence in the Trinity.

You know, there has to be perfect harmony.

They have to work perfectly.

Otherwise, you don't have the God of the Bible.

Let me just go back to John 6 for a minute.

Listen to verse 39.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the

last day.

Well, if he's given the Son all, then all are going to be raised up on the last day.

Well, there's a real problem there.

You know, and the problem is, obviously, that not everybody's going to heaven.

But he says, you know, of those he's given, or the will of him who sent me, that I should lose

nothing of all he has given me.

Every single one, all the elect that he has given him, he's going to do.

And we know that because over and over again, he says, in fact, back in verse 38, for I've

come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

He perfectly carries out the will of the Father, which was to redeem a

people, a specific group.

Mark, if you believe, listener, that Jesus died for each and every person, we still can be friends.

We love you, but we want to help you.

And we want to help you think biblically.

And we want to ask you the question, would you please consider

the intent and plan and design of the triune God?

Because if you do consider that, I think, we don't have any argument to win, but I think

you'll get it.

I think you'll say, oh, now I understand it.

When Jesus says, I come in John 10 to lay down my life for the sheep.

And the goats.

Yeah.

Can you imagine?

I lay down my life for the sheep.

I'm the good shepherd and I know my own and my own know me.

Even as my Father knows me and I know the Father, I lay down my life for the sheep.

He says in verse 26, but you do not believe because you're not of my sheep.

So, there's a difference between sheep, he didn't say goats here, but that's what he means.

Pete.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

I mean, you could call them whatever you want.

Goats, not sheep.

You know?

I mean.

Pete No, a sheep.

Pete Unsheep.

Pete There's a special way that Jesus, the great shepherd, the good shepherd, loves

his sheep.

And Jesus is trying to show, you know, the hirelings don't love, right?

The wolves don't love.

Here's a question, Steve.

Does Jesus lay down his life for the wolves?

Steve No.

Pete Okay, the false teachers.

Steve No, no.

Pete Now, when false teachers get saved, and I think some probably have, right?

Steve.

Then they repent, and they repent mightily.

Pete.

It's so crazy.

Jesus, it says in John 17, when Jesus spoke these words, he lifted up his eyes to

heaven and said, Father, the hour has come.

Glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh to

give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Again, you know, it's always the actions of the Father, you know, to the Son.

And ultimately, again, you know, going back to John 6, what does the Son do?

He returns all that the Father has given him.

It's like, and I say this frequently, we are essentially a love gift from the Father

to the Son, and then back from the Son to the Father.

You know, we're like the football that gets passed back and forth.

Pete.

That's right.

You know what, Steve?

I was thinking about people that go to the grocery store and redeem aluminum cans.

And if there's a huge garbage can full of aluminum cans, and I said to my son, go redeem all the cans.

Where are you?

Twenty days later, he shows up.

He's like, Dad, you know, I've been going through the entire neighborhood redeeming all the cans.

I'm telling you, redeem all those cans right there in that bag at our house.

I know.

Anyway, Mike Ebenroth here with Steve Cooley talking about limited atonement, definite atonement, personal

atonement, particular redemption.

Those are good words.

Jesus dies for someone, they're going to go to heaven because Jesus accomplished salvation for them.

It's scriptural, it's biblical, and it's in keeping with the harmony of the triune God, Father, Son,

and Spirit.

You can write us info at nocompromiseradio .com, or if you've got a wild story, heno.

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