Can a Calvinist be a Molinist?

Today two Calvinists are going into the multiverse and we're going to talk about why that may or may not be a good thing. Conversations with the Calvinist begins right now. Welcome back to conversations with the Calvinist.

My name is Keith Bosky and I am a Calvinist and I am super excited today to be joined by the Calvinist the man the one who actually created the film Calvinist. Less lamp here less. How are you doing today?

I'm doing great being called the Calvinist. That's that's such an honor.

Yeah, yeah, and and and honestly on this show. I'm usually the Calvinist. So because that that's the big joke with the show is the conversation with the Calvinist and I'm the Calvinist. So you being the Calvinist today you win the prize.

Wow, yeah. And. Well, and like I said for those of you who those in the audience who do not know less I came to know less through his filmmaking. He did make a film called Calvinist and we showed it at our church.

Actually, we we were so excited because we are a Reformed Baptist Church. And we wanted to help people to understand what it means when we use the term Calvinist and why that term is becoming more and more Accepted and understood.

Now where for a long time it was. And then it wasn't and now it is and there was a just. What sort of brought it in and out of the the mainstream? Christian culture and Less. I want to ask you this question.

Can you can you tell me what it was that that caused you to make that movie? What what was the sort of the impetus now? I think I know because I've seen the movie but for those who haven't.

Well unemployment was was one of the reasons needed but I. So I I started a podcast called the reformed podcast with a friend of mine. We were Reformed Baptists when we started it, so, you know, I I love my Reformed Baptist brothers.

And I hate to interrupt. Yeah, but just so that everyone in the audience knows I'm a Reformed Baptist and less is that is a Presbyterian so we may have a water fight later. We may you know, I'll I'll try to throw him in the pool while he tries to spray me with a squirt gun.

Always down for a water fight. Okay. So. So, yeah, I had sort of this this Touchstone with a lot of other young reformed people and over my few years having a podcast and a Facebook group that went along with it and I heard a lot of very similar stories about how people came to.

How people came to Calvinism and basically it was like seeing the shallowness in the church in general. And looking for something and a lot of it was, you know online because the internet was, you know blowing up and all this all these new resources were available to to people and so I have some experience in the film industry like Hollywood films in post-production and I had sort of this access to this audience and I did a Kickstarter did a fundraiser and They believed in it and they backed it.

So I was able to travel all over the country and interview all of my heroes. I got to interview RC Sproul in the last year of his life and I produced a movie called Calvinist, so it's all about the resurgence of reformed theology and and An attempt to also explain it but in a way that's sort of approachable and not highbrow and all that stuff.

Reformed Worship and the Regulative Principle

Awesome and you have also worked on an additional film that is available as well. Can you tell us just a minute about that?

Sure. Yeah after Calvinist a couple years later. I Did the same process a Kickstarter and all that and I made another film called Spirit and Truth and that film is specifically about reformed worship.

So it's another Kind of critique on the modern church, but specifically, you know, how do we approach God? What's what's wrong with the smoke machine laser lights, you know giant band, you know all that stuff but not just that.

On the other side you got the height the high church movement and like stained glass and you know, you got you got a there's a lot of experiences that you can seek in churches and You know. Is there a right way to go about it is sort of the question in the movie.

The regulative principle if people are familiar with.

That term. Yes, absolutely. I actually have a friend who wants to come on and debate. He's opposed to the regulative principle so I'm hoping to have that debate on the show very soon because I do hold to the regulative principle and It's interesting to hear somebody who comes from The other side who says no they don't agree with it because it's it's definitely something that I think is important for people to understand.

Also shameless plug here since you mentioned the film about worship our church is going to be hosting a Conference in March on the theology of worship and the whole purpose of that Conference is going to be talking about why we do what we do on the Lord's Day.

Why do we have corporate prayer? Why do we have corporate preaching of the word and reading of the word? Why do we have corporate singing and what is singing a supposed to be? So I bring this up because I'm going to encourage the church to actually watch your film as well because I think that will be a good opportunity to pull multiple streams of education together as we look forward to trying to learn why it is we do what we do because I do think there are a lot of people who come into the church and don't.

Really they they know they're supposed to be here and they know that what they're doing is right. But they don't know why it's right and they don't know why. Yeah why is it that listening to this guy talk to me for an hour from the Bible is Is valuable outside of just learning facts and and being encouraged, you know, why is this important?

Well, how is this? How is this? How is God using this to sanctify me? And what is the purpose?

Yeah, and a lot of people a lot of people go into you know, megachurches and things like that. That's where they end up and they sense that there's something not quite right about the the worship. But they don't have any context for how to explain that.

So yeah, these conversations are just always good and necessary and they always have been throughout history. So.

Multiverse Theory, Brain in a Vat, and the Sovereignty of God

Absolutely, absolutely well, the reason again, uh less that I asked you to come on today is actually was You and I are on facebook together. And so I get to see your posts. I'm often encouraged by what you write and i've been a part of the Online groups that you that you've moderated and I appreciate that and uh several weeks ago.

You wrote a post about your thoughts on Multiverse theories and so with all of the new movies that are promoting the the idea that there are multiple universes and multiple Multiple versions of me multiple iterations of this world and.

And and all of these things. I wanted to talk about this because what your post said Actually intrigued me because it it put out the idea that this is this is more than just hollywood doing its thing.

This is a promotion of a concept that causes us to question the very fabric of reality. And so I want to read your post and then we're going to use that as our launching point. To have a conversation because some of what you said here is is so clear I want to make sure that I say it exact and then and and again for those of you who don't know what the multiverse is.

Go watch a marvel movie go watch. Uh Big bang theory a lot of these shows and movies and even I I even sent you one. Just last night a new movie called bliss came out. It was an amazon movie and that movie bliss was about a uh How taking drugs could put you in a different universe?

And and there is a different universe a better world and you take the drugs and you go into this this better world. And it's sort of like a simulation matrix style movie and matrix was really sort of what kicked all this off.

But the idea that what we're experiencing Isn't real. So let me get let me read your original quote. I Truly believe that as science brings men closer and closer to the undeniable face of their creator god Satan's final weapon is to convince people that the world they live in simply isn't real.

Multiverses simulated realities the matrix Hallucinogenics, this is the new narrative that will continue to be pushed on us when the universe is clearly created. Ordered and purposeful. The only alternative is that you are a brain in a vat and it's all an illusion well, that's a powerful quote and I want to ask you to explain something very quickly because I know when I hear the term brain in a vat.

I know what that means. But there are some people who don't so can you give a quick? Uh explanation as to the brain in the vat theory.

Yeah, well it's the matrix that's the easiest way to say it. So if people are familiar with with the concept of what the matrix is that you are living in a simulation and somehow beyond The the reality that you're experiencing every day.

There is the actual you that is Being fed. Uh stimulation somehow, you know, so you can imagine a brain in a vat with Electrodes attached to it, uh, or the matrix, you know, he was they were wired into the to this construct and Uh, the computers were simulating reality for them.

So that's the idea. Um. And there's you know, there's a million different ways to to imagine that concept. But yeah, the matrix is is easily the the clearest. Okay touch touch point we all have.

Absolutely. And do you think that there are people? In the world today who believe that what we are living in is not real reality that they're that we're having some form of Simulation thrust upon us.

Do you think there are people who really believe that or is this all science fiction?

Well, absolutely, um, and I know that for a fact because I Have experience with like hallucinogenic drugs when I was younger um before I came to christ, um, and I I I know that that post that I posted is true because I Went through a period where I basically hit the pinnacle of what these drugs could do to my mind and I had a very bad experience that Basically, like destroyed my worldview and left me with with that reality that you know that that there was no.

Really? There's no other option. And that's kind of the point of the post is is if you really Get down to the nuts and bolts of the reality that we live in, you know Evolution big bang all these things.

They really can't answer these questions. They simply can't. Um, and if you're if you're honest with that if you come face to face with that reality, um, then You know, it's it's you either have to say there is a creator god who is eternal or you have to say um This this reality just isn't real and it's some sort of hallucination.

So, yeah, I I think a lot of people especially people who've done hallucinogenic drugs, um, uh end up having to Come to that sort of conclusion.

Sure I remember very specifically and I understand it's a television show. Anybody in the audience who might feel the need to comment and say it's just a television show. I get it. But I remember very specifically.

Uh, there was an episode of the big bang theory where one of the main characters, uh, leonard hofstetter was talking to his friend on the show girlfriend on the show and he was telling her that he believed that the World that we live in was essentially like a hologram.

That it was the universe projecting reality onto itself. And uh, I remember thinking, you know, this is this show is obviously entertainment. Most of it is silly. They talk about superheroes. They talk about this they talk about that, but but it is set in a form of reality.

It's set where it's supposed to be uh men who are who are I use that term men loosely. So I mean Yeah young men who are supposed to be Scientists who are at the top of their field who are having conversations within the show about things like string theory.

About things like the multiverse and those those things come up as if they are realities and I can't help but to think that within the show they are promoting a narrative of reality that is is an attempt to to To really push upon us the idea that what we're experiencing isn't real and what we're experiencing is is is only one of multiple realities that could be.

And this leads us to the situation where we as you said we begin to say There's only one of two options. We either have a creator who made us and has decreed all things and we are living out his decrees or we have a uh, a universe that has no meaning and no substance and no purpose and we are just a Again, a a some sort of hologram in the midst in the midst of that so uh, one of the things that I I responded to you on your post and and I wrote this I said that the multiverse movies and shows in my opinion Are intentioned on producing a subconscious mental narrative in the minds of people and that that goes along with what you're saying and and what I was.

Just to continue this for the audience. What I mean is is is promoting the idea among people. That there are multiple u's there are multiple me's and we see this. Particularly in the the marvel franchise.

Uh, did you happen to to to see any of the the loki's series? Yeah. Okay, and that whole idea was there were multiple loki's and they were all different one was a woman one was an alligator. It was meant to be silly and foolish, but the idea is that there's multiple universes.

And so so this morning when I woke up, I knew I had an interview with less. And my interview was at 10 o 'clock. Well, what if I would have? What if I would have decided i'm not going to do that? I'm gonna call less up and i'm gonna cancel and that would have taken my day into a totally different direction and it could have been that that direction took me into my car and that my car got into a car accident with Someone else and that changed my entire life and so we we begin to look at the world as as as a series of what ifs and um, obviously none of us knows the future, but we believe that god has Decreed what is going to happen?

So so what are some of the dangers that you see in this for for the minds of people as they look at? As they look at the world as being basically uh Unlimited opportunities of chance and change that really have no purpose and I hope I hope that's not a confusing question.

What i'm saying is what do you really think this is a dangerous thing or do you think it's just the next fad? That's going to go away.

Well, I don't think it's the next fad so you you mentioned, uh, you know what if I had done something different this morning and That that was really one of the bigger things that put me over the edge for just understanding the sovereignty of god.

Uh in general, you know, obviously reformed or calvinist. Uh, we have a very particular understanding of what it means for god to be sovereign. Meaning that he decreed literally every single, you know moment uh down to the Smallest minutiae that you can imagine because nothing can exist unless god decrees for it to exist um and I remember debating people when I started to understand it and realizing like You know like your average arminian sort of thinks that god's in control of the big things.

But then there's the the minutiae is unimportant. But you know like like you were just pointing out there's that you know, the the butterfly effect is a concept that people talk about too is. Any small decision you make?

Fans out into. Any number of other, you know other, uh effects that happen. Uh to to other things and if god allowed anything to be random, then he couldn't control anything. Because how in the world can you rein it back in after you're you're allowing things to affect you, you know.

You're a bigger plan. So I think that's it's uh it's detrimental to christians just because uh, if you You're you're stealing away the sovereignty of god and you're not submitting to uh, the decree of of god in that in that way but um I think I think the the thing that really stands out to me about the the idea of it is that it just it's it's a way out of getting out from the the idea that um.

That that god exists at all that god is is it has made this world and it's purposeful and uh, and god is the the god over it because if It's it's just this alternative. So, uh, every choice that I make branches off and did all these other things um and the end result of that and this is this is the the part that Where all of these things that ultimately have to fall apart.

Um. Multiverse can't just be some finite amount of multi of of of universes, right? At some point you have to be honest with the fact that this becomes an infinite amount of Other universes and that and that you know, uh, these marvel movies even even mention that but you can't really deal with the concept of infinity.

So it's like a lot and it's mind-boggling amounts and all this stuff. But you you know. The god is god's infinity is something that you can't wrap your mind around for for a reason um. And so you have this this idea of all these infinite, uh, alternate universes but now you're dealing with infinity and infinity is.

Uh, it's it that's it. It just simply can't be that way because the question at the end of the day Uh still stands glaring in your face at all times. The undeniable reality that where did it come from and and are you really just saying that matt? matter and time and Branching universes this system that seems like it has all these arbitrary rules for how it operates.

You've just made a more complex system and you're still saying it came from nowhere. It simply can't be you you know. Just making it more complex doesn't answer the question that actually makes the problem even even more difficult and more impossible.

Yeah, absolutely absolutely now.

I want to uh Make one comment on something that you said you talked about how god Even the small things are important probably one of the most uh Impressive examples of that was the late. Dr Rc sproll who you mentioned you had the opportunity to interview.

I I I had a few opportunities to spend some time with him. He he lived not too far south of uh of where i'm at in jacksonville. He lived in lake mary and and there just north of orlando. So I had an opportunity to see him several times and have some good conversations uh.

Wow, and yeah, it was it was great. It was great. And so thinking about What he said and that is that if there were even one rogue molecule In all of the universe that was not under the command of god's sovereignty.

That could be the molecule That took everything else and turned its on turned it on its head. That could be the one thing that made it all fall apart. And so god is either completely sovereign Over all things or he's not sovereign at all.

Theodicy, Evil, and God's Good Purpose

Yeah. And this brings us back to a deeper theological issue and that is the theology of Will and choice and and how are my choices? Fit within the concept of god's overarching sovereignty. And certainly we have the caricatures that are often leveled against calvinists that we are nothing but puppets on strings and that god is the one who is making us do Evil and all of these things and that's often the picture that's that's put against us.

Um, but that's not what we represent as calvinists. We we represent people being able to make choices, but that those choices are uh within this the the framework of god's overall sovereignty and one of the more recent Controversies that seems to have crept into the reformed conversation.

Is the concept of molinism. And molinism is what I have dubbed the marvel multiverse theory of god's sovereignty. So so that's so that's why i'm bringing that in here. Uh less before the show we talked about the fact that you you have some experience.

You know a little bit about molinism. Could you give the audience just a short version of when I say the word molinism. What is that and and and what do people who believe that believe? Sure.

So well, so it the its origins I think are the most telling uh part of it because uh, basically after the reformation you have these brilliant reformed thinkers who weren't just brilliant, but they were Incredibly biblical and so they reformed.

Uh the view it, you know augustine was doing this before. It's not like they came up with new ideas. It's just that it was forgotten throughout the roman catholic, uh, you know history. Um, but they were just returning to this idea that god has decreed everything that happens all things are under god's sovereignty.

Um, and nothing happens unless god is decreed that it would happen whatsoever comes to pass as our confession says. Uh, so the roman catholic church Uh, literally hired a jesuit who's a roman catholic uh Louis de molina is his name I believe and he.

He came up with a solution to the reformed view of sovereignty and he came up with this this idea of middle knowledge uh and this this uh potentiality of other universe or you know other realities and all these things and uh, it became known as molinism and the terrible irony is that a lot of.

Uh. That I think if you're not a calvinist and you're protestant you You really just don't want to think too much too deeply about the sovereignty of god because it gets real confusing really fast. And if you're not going to say that god is both absolutely sovereign and humans.

Also have true responsibility and those two things work together uh, and there's I guess there's a little bit of variation in how. Some people want to bring those two things together. But if you can't say that then your alternative is to just not think about it or to come up with some kind of philosophy.

And I I think that's why molinism Is getting popular again because calvinism is getting popular again and people are really thinking about god's sovereignty and we need unfortunately protestants. Uh feel like they need an alternative and they're they're going to molinism, unfortunately.

Okay and molin molinism basically postulates the idea as I understand it and you can correct me if if i'm if i'm misrepresenting it, but it postulates the idea that there are there are things that are and there are things that Can be and then there are things that would be in any given situation and it's that word would.

That really is what they what they call the subjunctive and that is the subjunctive would really produces the the issue because they would say that that That less Is going to do the show today, obviously because you're on the show.

But if less would have done differently, let's say less called me last minute said I can't do it I've got to go get in the car. So that could have happened and what would have happened if that did happen?

And I hope that the listener is hearing because you start to understand why I call this the marvel multiverse view because it's it's very similar to the idea of multiple universes where what what would have happened if less would have Would have decided he wasn't going to do the show today or what would have happened.

Did you go to church last sunday? Of course, okay, I just it's lord's day, you know. But but for a lot of people it was uh, it was the day of snoop dogg and dr. Dre. So I want to make sure.

Nope, not me. No, I think I figured as much. I just that's why i'm a good calvinist.

Yes, you're a good calvinist and and so so you're in church on the lord's day. But what would have happened if you didn't go to church on the lord's day? What would have happened if you would have stayed home.

Or what would have happened if you would have went to disney world or what? Would have happened. And so all of these things create an infinite as you already said you used the word infinite. That was good.

It creates an infinite opportunity for change. And so god has decreed I think in molinism though.

I I think somehow and once again, that's the problem is that people people don't want to really embrace this concept of infinity um. Because it really yeah. Well, I should have let you you finish. Uh, i'll just i'll try to make this short.

Um God god is being presented this data. But it has to be a finite amount of data because he's he's basically choosing uh to actuate a universe based on the the data set before him based on Given conditions.

So if I did it this way, let me play out that simulation. What would that look like? And you know, there's a do you mind if I just take over? No, please. This is what I want to know. Absolutely. Sorry.

No, please. I didn't mean to hijack your explanation. But I just wanted to make a point and now i'm going off on it. Um, but yeah, so that's the idea. You know god sets the parameters plays out the simulation.

That's at least the way the best way to think about what they're saying it's they're not necessarily saying exactly that god does it this way, but but this is you know, uh,.

Yeah, they're saying they're saying his his middle knowledge does that. Even though he's not he's not literally sitting there.

Yeah, yeah, he's aware of any potential futures and so that means any Uh set of sets of data that he could he could establish uh. What will the result the resulting universe the resulting reality that that he would actuate?

Um, what would the result of that be and so then it's up to you to sort of decide what's the most important thing to god. Um, and you know most evangelicals want to say the most important thing is the most people get saved.

So that's that's kind of the uh end end game. Oh, we'll go marvel again. Uh, the end game is that god would save the most amount of people. Um, so he says if I do it this way, how many people get saved if I do it this way?

How many people get saved and then you end up with the one where the most people get saved, but they were still given Complete free will because that's the most important thing, especially to roman catholics and arminians after them.

Uh roman catholicism 2 .0 in a lot of ways um, and so that's that's the system and so now god is sovereign because he is. Uh, the the universe that was actuated every single detail of it is what he wanted technically but um, it's it's sort of uh.

It's him settling on this this set of conditions because it gives him the best possible. So it's really god sovereignty versus human human freedom and because human freedom must be upheld in this system.

He is now constrained to a less than put a less than ideal. He can't he can't just make it. However, he wants because people still have to have freedom and then some people need to get saved whereas we would say.

The reason people don't get saved is because god simply chose not to save them and that's that's god's prerogative. And we we uphold god's sovereign prerogative to to choose those things and and here's uh back to like pop culture media sort of stuff like I don't I don't know how you feel about this, but uh, i'm when I watch especially time travel movies anytime a time travel movie uh, you know you go back in time and you change an event and then now the future is different and that's really where the the the um.

The plot hole that comes out of that is is what makes a multiverse theory necessary. Uh, because now you've changed the past but that hit that future did exist differently. So now there's two different futures and you get a fork but uh.

Back to future. Yeah, it did they didn't they didn't deal with that right they didn't deal with. With that the fact that there was a future where uh. Where marty actually came from that was different than the future that he ended up changing and there's actually a pretty crazy if you really think through back in the future, it's pretty nuts because.

Uh, there's a reality where marty gets sent back to 1985 and biff's in charge, right? Uh, and he like owns the world like donald trump, uh, and uh, but He didn't there's a marty that got sent back to that 1985.

But had no concept of why it was this way because he he's not the same marty that went forward to 2015. Got the sports almanac learned all this information and he's the one that shows up in 1985 that we follow that knows.

You know, whatever. Why why biff's in charge? But but there is a marty that was sent back to that time and had no idea why it was that way. So he was just like going insane without that information. Anyway.

That's. First of all, this is why we would be friends the fact that I understood everything that you just said, but go ahead.

Um, so that's that's one, um time travel. I guess you could say time travel theory that's used in movies. But but then there's another one where if you go back in time and you change an event All you're doing is establishing why the future is the way it is.

And it ends up being this predestined loop. And that's every uh, that's uh, well, I guess not every but uh,. Um, what's his name? I just lost his name the uh, dr. Who? No, well, yeah, i've never watched I never watched doctor who.

I don't know. I don't know either. I was taking a stat.

I was taking a stab in the dark. No, um.

Uh nolan christopher nolan. Oh, um I guess specifically interstellar. I absolutely love interstellar but interstellar is the best example of. Because it's because he does there's like a predestined loop within a predestined loop and he's like He's showing you the same thing over and over and over again in the movie.

And I hated Interstellar when I first watched it, but then when I started to understand what he was doing. It was like it's it's the best is the best time travel movie ever made. Uh, it's absolutely fascinating.

Uh, very secularist and actually it it basically posits that humanity made itself. Uh in some crazy way. But um, and then there's another have you ever seen predestination. No, no, is that oh man? Don't don't don't watch it just because of that.

It's uh, it's kind of perverse. I'm not kind of perverse. It's very perverse in um. But but basically the whole the whole concept of the movie. Is that I shouldn't even give it away. It is mind-bogglingly predestined loop, uh, you know, uh concept um, but For me whenever I watch those movies.

The predestined loop is the only satisfying way to watch a time travel movie or else you get The avengers and avengers pointed out. It was at the hulk right that explained in endgame that when you time travel it can't be like back to the future because.

You know the future was the way it was blah blah blah and he pokes fun at it. And then so they're basically saying the only way time travel can work is if there's multiverses. But the other option is a predestined a predestined loop and so it's like calvinism is basically said is the the Predestination nothing can change.

It doesn't matter what you do sort of at least, you know, there is a timeline that can't be altered um, whereas molinism would more reflect this idea of like no, there's a million different ways it could have gone and those are.

They're all just as as uh, truly potential.

You know, so sorry to go off on that tangent, no, no, I love it and again, this is we we could sit around a fire and uh, you know since you're the reform pub we could sit around a fire with a with a couple of uh, A couple of drinks and and talk this all out all right, so, uh getting back to uh, when you were talking about the the idea of of the multi The the way that it shows itself out in movies and and and we we live in a culture that does Really honor film as as as as the most important medium that we have, you know.

As far as you know, everybody wants everything to be on film even even the stories of the bible everybody wants the stories of the bible on film, which I know is uh, some people are uh, we get the the issue of the the the second commandment violation in regards to uh, Films like chosen and things like that but people want things on film and and they say art imitates life and life imitates art and I think also art influences how we View life art art art, you know.

It becomes the the teacher so a lot of people what they learn in school is actually uh Less important in one sense than what they're learning from the the the mediums that are coming to them through television movies instagram Facebook all of these things.

This is how they're they're digesting information so again, as you said in the original the original quote is that these things are the this is. It's being pushed on us these ideas. And so people are talking about multiverse theory like it's like it's a real thing.

And then again, we've got molinism, which is a theology which it and I know somebody may listen to this and say you're not being Fair you're not representing when you say molinism is the multiverse theory.

I understand That they only believe one universe was actuated they don't believe in multiple Actuation, right? But the idea they do believe in multiple potentialities. That's a word you said. The idea is that all things are ultimately potential.

And I know you didn't get a chance to watch this but just last weekend Dr. James white Debated a man named tim stratton. Dr. Tim stratton. I want to give him the credit. Let's do dr. James white and dr Tim stratton debated on the subject of molinism and debated the The comparing molinism with calvinism and is molinism biblical and dr Stratton believes certainly that it is and and he even says, you know, it's not about molina.

It's what the bible says and he tries to make these biblical arguments using passages that use the word Would such as when it talks about what sodom and gomorrah would have done had they heard the gospel.

You know jesus talks about that when he's talking to tyrant sidon, you know, if sodom and gomorrah had heard this, you know They would have repented and so they use those as the arguments as to what could or would have happened um, but dr. Stratton Said that he believes That this is a necessary thing.

Because if we hold to the calvinistic view That god is sovereign over all things then we have to We have to say then that god Is the uh, and he I I want to say use the word author, but I could be wrong again I've only listened to it one time but basically god is the author or the cause of the most horrendous acts of history such as Child rape and that's always the one everybody goes to is the you know, a child is raped and god is the cause.