Can a Calvinist be a Molinist?

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Today two Calvinists are going into the multiverse and we're going to talk about why that may or may not be a good thing Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now Welcome back to conversations with a Calvinist My name is Keith Bosky and I am a Calvinist and I am super excited today to be joined by the Calvinist the man the one who actually created the film Calvinist less lamp here less.

00:43

How are you doing today? I'm doing great being called the Calvinist.

00:48

That's that's such an honor Yeah, yeah, and and and honestly on this show.

00:54

I'm usually the Calvinist So because that that's the big joke with the show is the conversation with the Calvinist and I'm the Calvinist So you being the Calvinist today you win the prize Wow, yeah And Well, and like I said for those of you who those in the audience who do not know less I came to know less through his filmmaking.

01:14

He did make a film called Calvinist and we showed it at our church Actually, we we were so excited because we are a Reformed Baptist Church and we wanted to help people to understand What it means when we use the term Calvinist and why that term is becoming more and more Accepted and understood now where for a long time it was and then it wasn't and now it is and there was a just what sort of brought it in and out of the the mainstream Christian culture and Less I want to ask you this question.

01:43

Can you can you tell me what it was that that caused you to make that movie? What what was the sort of the impetus now? I think I know because I've seen the movie but for those who haven't Well unemployment was was one of the reasons needed But I So I I started a podcast called the reformed podcast with a friend of mine We were Reformed Baptists when we started it.

02:07

So, you know, I I love my Reformed Baptist brothers And I hate to interrupt.

02:13

Yeah, but just so that everyone in the audience knows I'm a Reformed Baptist and less is a Presbyterian.

02:19

So we may have a water fight later We may you know, I'll try to throw him in the pool while he tries to spray me with a squirt gun Always down for a water fight.

02:29

Okay so so yeah, I had sort of this this touchstone with a lot of other young Reformed people and over my few years having a podcast and a Facebook group that went along with it and I heard a lot of very similar stories about how people came to How people came to Calvinism and basically it was like Seeing the shallowness in the church in general and looking for something and a lot of it was, you know online because the internet was, you know blowing up and all this all these new resources were available to to people and so I have some experience in the film industry like Hollywood films in post-production and I had sort of this access to this audience and I did a Kickstarter did a fundraiser and they believed in it and they backed it So I was able to travel over the country and interview all of my heroes I got to interview RC Sproul in the last year of his life and I produced a movie called Calvinist, so it's all about the resurgence of Reformed theology and and An attempt to also explain it but in a way that's sort of approachable and not highbrow and all that stuff Awesome, and you have also worked on an additional film that is available as well.

03:57

Can you tell us just a minute about that? Sure.

04:00

Yeah after Calvinist a couple years later.

04:03

I Did the same process a Kickstarter and all that and I made another film called Spirit and truth and that film is specifically about reformed worship.

04:14

So it's another Kind of critique on the modern church, but specifically, you know, how do we approach God? What's what's wrong with the smoke machine laser lights, you know giant band, you know all that stuff But not just that on the other side you got the height the high church movement and like stained glass and you know There's a lot of experiences that you can seek in churches and You know Is there a right way to go about it is sort of the question in the movie the regulative principle if people are familiar with That term.

04:47

Yes, absolutely.

04:49

I actually have a friend who wants to come on and debate.

04:51

He's opposed to the regular principle so I'm hoping to have that debate on the show very soon because I do hold to the regular principle and It's interesting to hear somebody who comes from The other side who says no they don't agree with it because it's a it's definitely something that I think is important for people to understand also shameless plug here since you mentioned the film about worship our church is going to be hosting a Conference in March on the theology of worship and the whole purpose of that Conference is going to be talking about why we do what we do on the Lord's Day.

05:23

Why do we have corporate prayer? Why do we have corporate preaching of the word and reading of the word? Why do we have corporate singing and what is singing of supposed to be? So I bring this up because I'm going to encourage the church to actually watch your film as well Because I think that will be a good opportunity to pull multiple streams of education together as we look forward to trying to learn Why it is we do what we do because I do think there are a lot of people who come into the church and don't Really they know they're supposed to be here and they know that what they're doing is right But they don't know why it's right and they don't know why yeah Why is it that listening to this guy talk to me for an hour from the Bible is is? Valuable outside of just learning facts and and being encouraged, you know, why is this important? Well, how is this and how is this a how's God using this to sanctify me? And what is the purpose? Yeah, and a lot of people a lot of people go into you know, make it churches and things like that That's where they end up and they sense that there's something not quite right about the the worship But they don't have any context for how to explain that So yeah, these conversations are just always good and necessary and they always have been throughout history.

06:31

So Absolutely.

06:32

Absolutely Well, the reason again less that I asked you to come on today is actually was you and I are on Facebook together And so I get to see your post I'm often encouraged by what you write and I've been a part of the online groups that you that you've moderated and I appreciate that and Several weeks ago you wrote a post about your thoughts on multiverse theories and so with all of the new movies that are promoting the the idea that there are multiple universes and multiple Multiple versions of me multiple iterations of this world and and and all of these things I wanted to talk about this because what your post said Actually intrigued me because it put out the idea that this is this is more than just Hollywood doing its thing this is a promotion of a concept that causes us to question the very fabric of reality and so I want to read your post and then we're going to use that as our launching point to have a Conversation because some of what you said here is so clear I want to make sure that I say it exact and then and and again for those of you who don't know what the multiverse is Go watch a Marvel movie go watch Big Bang Theory that a lot of these shows and movies and even that I even sent you one just last night a new movie Called bliss came out.

07:56

It was an Amazon movie and that movie bliss was about a How taking drugs could put you in a different universe and There is a different universe a better world and you take the drugs and you go into this this better world and it's sort of like a simulation matrix style movie and matrix was really sort of what kicked all this off with the idea that what we're Experiencing isn't real So, let me get let me read your original quote.

08:24

I Truly believe that if science brings men closer and closer to the undeniable face of their Creator God Satan's final weapon is to convince people that the world they live in simply isn't real Multiverses simulated realities the matrix Hallucinogenics, this is the new narrative that will continue to be pushed on us when the universe is clearly created ordered and purposeful The only alternative is that you are a brain in a vat and it's all an illusion Well, that's a powerful quote and I want to ask you to explain something very quickly because I know when I hear the term brain in A vat I know what that means But there are some people who don't so can you give a quick Explanation as to the brain in the vat theory Yeah, well, it's the matrix that's the easiest way to say it so if people are familiar with with the concept of what the matrix is that you are living in a simulation and Somehow beyond the the reality that you're experiencing every day.

09:30

There is the actual you that is Being fed Stimulation somehow, you know, so you can imagine a brain in a vat with electrodes attached to it or the matrix, you know, he was they were wired into the to this construct and The computers were simulating reality for them.

09:52

So that's the idea and There's you know, there's a million different ways to to imagine that concept.

10:00

But yeah, the matrix is is easily the clearest Okay, touch touch point we all have Absolutely, and do you think that there are people in the world today who believe that what we are living in is not real reality That they're that we're having some form of simulation thrust upon us Do you think there are people who really believe that or is this all science fiction? well, absolutely, and I know that for a fact because I Have experience with hallucinogenic drugs when I was younger before I came to Christ and I I know that that post that I posted is true because I went through a period where I basically hit the pinnacle of what these drugs could do to my mind and I had a very bad experience that Basically, like destroyed my worldview and left me with with that reality that you know that that there was no really, there's no other option and That's kind of the point of the post is is if you really get down to the nuts and bolts of the reality that we live in you know Evolution Big Bang all these things.

11:08

They really can't answer these questions that they simply can't And if you're if you're honest with that if you come face to face with that reality then You know, it's it's you either have to say there is a Creator God who is eternal or you have to say This this reality just isn't real and it's some sort of hallucination So yeah, I I think a lot of people especially people who've done hallucinogenic drugs end up Having to come to that sort of conclusion Sure.

11:44

I remember very specifically and I understand it's a television show anybody in the audience who might feel the need to comment and say It's just a television show.

11:53

I get it, but I remember very specifically There was an episode of the Big Bang Theory where one of the main characters Leonard Hofstadter was talking to his friend on the show girlfriend on the show and he was telling her that he believed that the world that we live in was essentially like a hologram that it was the universe projecting reality onto itself and I remember thinking, you know, this is this show is obviously entertainment.

12:23

Most of it is silly.

12:24

They talk about superheroes They talk about this they talk about that, but but it is set in a form of reality.

12:28

It's set where it's supposed to be Men who are who are I use that term men loosely something Yeah young men who are supposed to be Scientists who are at the top of their field who are having conversations within the show about things like string theory About things like the multiverse and those those things come up as if they are realities and I can't help but to think that within the show they are promoting a narrative of reality that is is an attempt to To really push upon us the idea that what we're experiencing isn't real and what we're experiencing is is only one of multiple realities that could be and This leads us to the situation where we as you said we begin to say there's only one of two options we either have a creator who made us and has decreed all things and it we are living out his decrees or we have a Universe that has no meaning and no substance and no purpose and we are just a Again a some sort of hologram in the midst in the midst of that so One of the things that I I responded to you on your post and and I wrote this I said that the multiverse movies and shows in my opinion are intentioned on producing a subconscious mental narrative in the minds of people and that that goes along with what you're saying and And and what I was just to continue this for the audience what I mean is is is promoting the idea among people that There are multiple use there are multiple me's and we see this Particularly in the the Marvel franchise.

14:21

Did you happen to to to see any of the the Loki's series? Yeah, okay, and that whole idea was there were multiple Loki's and they were all different one was a woman one was an alligator It was meant to be silly and foolish, but the idea is that there's multiple universes And so so this morning when I woke up, I knew I had an interview with less and my interview was at 10 o'clock Well, what if I would have what if I would have decided I'm not going to do that I'm gonna call less up and I'm gonna cancel and that would have taken my day into a totally different Direction and it could have been that that direction took me into my car and that my car got into a car accident with someone else and that changed my entire life and So we we begin to look at the world as as a series of what ifs and Obviously none of us knows the future but we believe that God has decreed what is going to happen so so what are some of the dangers that you see in this for for the minds of people as they look at as They look at the world as being basically Unlimited opportunities of chance and change that really have no purpose and I hope I hope that's not a confusing Question what I'm saying is what do you really think? This is a dangerous thing, or do you think it's just the next fad That's gonna go away.

15:36

Well, I don't think it's the next fad.

15:38

So you you mentioned You know what if I had done something different this morning and that that was really one of the bigger things that put me over the edge for Just understanding the sovereignty of God in general, you know, obviously reformed or Calvinist We have a very particular understanding of what it means for God to be sovereign I mean that he decreed literally every single, you know moment Down to the smallest minutia that you can imagine because nothing can exist unless God decrees for it to exist and I remember debating people when I started to understand it and realizing like You know like your average Arminian sort of thinks that God's in control of the big things But then there's the the minutia is unimportant but you know like like you were just pointing out there's that you know, the the butterfly effect is a concept that people talk about too is any small decision you make fans out into any number of other, you know other effects that happen To to other things and if God allowed anything to be random Then he couldn't control anything because how in the world can you rein it back in after you're allowing things to affect you? You know, you're a bigger plan.

16:57

So I think that's it's uh it's detrimental to Christians just because if you you're you're stealing away the sovereignty of God and you're not submitting to the decree of God in that in that way, but I think I think the the thing that really stands out to me about the the idea of it is that it just it's it's a way out of getting out from the the idea that That God exists at all that God is is it has made this world and it's purposeful and and God is the the God over it because if It's it's just this alternative.

17:39

So Every choice that I make branches off and did all these other things and The end result of that and this is this is the part that we're all of these things that ultimately have to fall apart Multiverse can't just be some finite amount of multi of Universes right at some point you have to be honest with the fact that this becomes an infinite amount of Other universes and that in that, you know These Marvel movies even even mention that but you can't really deal with the concept of infinity So it's like a lot and it's mind-boggling amounts and all this stuff.

18:19

But you you know God is God's infinity is something that you can't wrap your mind around for a reason And so you have this this idea of all these infinite Alternate universes, but now you're dealing with infinity and infinity is It's it that's it.

18:39

Just simply can't be that way because the question at the end of the day Still stands glaring in your face at all times the undeniable reality that where did it come from? and and are you really just saying that Matt matter and time and Branching universes this system that seems like it has all these arbitrary rules for how it operates You've just made a more complex system and you're still saying it came from nowhere It simply can't be you you know You just making it more complex doesn't answer the question that actually makes the problem even even more difficult and more impossible Yeah, absolutely.

19:21

Absolutely now I want to Make one comment on something that you said you talked about how God Even the small things are important probably one of the most Impressive examples of that was the late.

19:39

Dr.

19:39

RC Sproul who you mentioned you had the opportunity to interview I I had a few opportunities to spend some time with him He lived not too far south of where I'm at in Jacksonville He lived in Lake Mary and and they're just north of Orlando So I had an opportunity to see him several times and have some good conversations Wow, and yeah, it was it was great.

20:01

It was great.

20:02

And so thinking about What he said and that is that if there were even one rogue molecule in all of the universe that was not under the command of God's sovereignty that could be the molecule that Took everything else and turned it on its head That could be the one thing that made it all fall apart.

20:22

And so God is either completely sovereign Over all things or he's not sovereign at all Yeah, and this brings us back to a deeper theological issue.

20:34

And that is the theology of Will and choice and and how are my choices? Fit within the concept of God's overarching sovereignty and certainly we have the caricatures that are often leveled against Calvinist that we are nothing but puppets on strings and that God is the one who is making us do Evil and all of these things and that's often the picture that's that's put against us But that's not what we represent as Calvinist.

21:05

We we represent People being able to make choices, but that those choices are within this the the framework of God's overall sovereignty and One of the more recent Controversies that seems to have crept into the reformed conversation is the concept of Molinism and Molinism is what I have dubbed the Marvel multiverse theory of God's sovereignty So, so that's so that's why I'm bringing that in here less before the show We talked about the fact that you you have some experience, you know a little bit about Molin ism Could you give the audience just a short version of when I say the word Molin ism What is that and and and and what do people who believe that believe? sure so well, so it the its origins I think are the most telling part of it because Basically after the Reformation you have these brilliant reformed thinkers who weren't just brilliant, but they were incredibly biblical and So they reformed The view it, you know Augustine was doing this before it's not like they came up with new ideas It's just that it was forgotten throughout the Roman Catholic You know history But they were just returning to this idea that God has decreed everything that happens all things are under God's sovereignty And nothing happens unless God has decreed that it would happen whatsoever comes to pass as our confession says so the Roman Catholic Church Literally hired a Jesuit who's a Roman Catholic Louis de Molina is his name I believe and he he came up with a solution To the reformed view of sovereignty and he came up with this this idea of middle knowledge and this this Potentiality of other universe or you know other realities and all these things and it became known as Molin ism and the terrible irony is that a lot of That I think if you're not a Calvinist and you're Protestant you You really just don't want to think too much too deeply about the sovereignty of God because it gets real confusing really fast If you're not gonna say that God is both absolutely sovereign and Humans also have true responsibility and those two things work together and there's I guess there's a little bit of variation and how Some people want to bring those two things together But if you can't say that then your alternative is to just not think about it or to come up with some kind of philosophy And I think that's why Molin ism is getting popular again because Calvinism is getting popular again and people are really thinking about God's sovereignty and We need unfortunately Protestants Feel like they need an alternative and they're they're going to Molin ism, unfortunately Okay, and Molin Molin ism basically postulates the idea as I understand it and you can correct me if I'm if I'm misrepresenting it, but it postulates the idea that there are there are things that are and there are things that Can be and then there are things that would be in any given situation and it's that word would That really is what they what they call the subjunctive and that is the subjunctive would really produces the the issue because they would say that that That less is going to do the show today Obviously because you're on the show, but if less would have done differently Let's say less called me last minute said I can't do it I've got to go get in the car so that could have happened and what would have happened if that did happen and I hope that the listener is hearing because you start to understand why I call this the Marvel multiverse view because it's it's very similar to the idea of multiple universes Where what would have happened if less would have would have decided he wasn't gonna do the show today or what would have happened? Did you go to church last Sunday? Of course.

25:34

Okay.

25:34

I just mean it's Lord's Day, you know But but for a lot of people it was it was the day of Snoop Dogg and dr.

25:40

Dre So I want to make sure Nope, not me No, I think I figured as much as Calvinist.

25:47

Yes, you're a good Calvinist And and so so you're in church on the Lord's Day But what would have happened if you didn't go to church on the Lord's Day? What would have happened if you would have stayed home or what would have happened if you would have went to Disney World or what? would have happened and so all of these things create an Infinite as you already said you use the word infinite.

26:07

That was good.

26:08

It creates an infinite opportunity for change and So God has decree.

26:15

I think in Molanism though I think somehow in once again, that's the problem is that people people don't want to really embrace this concept of infinity Because it really yeah.

26:28

Well, I should have let you you finish but I'll just I'll try to make this short Got God is Being presented this data But it has to be a finite amount of data because he's he's basically choosing To actuate a universe based on the the data set before him based on given conditions So if I did it this way, let me play out that simulation.

26:53

What would that look like? And you know, there's a do you mind if I just take over? No, please.

26:58

This is what I want to know.

26:59

Absolutely No, please.

27:01

I didn't mean to hijack your explanation, but I just wanted to make a point and now I'm going off on it But yeah, so that's the idea, you know God sets the parameters plays out the simulation That's at least the way the best way to think about what they're saying It's they're not necessarily saying exactly that God does it this way, but but this is you know Yeah, they're saying his his middle knowledge does that even though he's not he's not literally sitting where yeah Yeah, he's aware of any potential futures.

27:31

And so that means any Set of sets of data that he could he could establish What will the result the resulting universe the resulting reality that that he would actuate? What would the result of that be? And so then it's up to you to sort of decide.

27:48

What's the most important thing to God? And you know most evangelicals want to say the most important thing is the most people get saved so that's that's kind of the endgame Oh The endgame is that God would save the most amount of people So he says if I do it this way, how many people get saved if I do it this way? How many people get saved and then you end up with the one where the most people get saved, but they were still given Complete free will because that's the most important thing, especially to Roman Catholics and Armenians after them Roman Catholicism 2.0 in a lot of ways And so that's that's the system and so now God is sovereign because he is the universe that was actuated every single detail of it is what he wanted technically, but it's it's sort of It's him settling on This this set of conditions because it gives him the best possible So it's really God sovereignty versus human human freedom and because human freedom must be upheld in this system He is now constrained to a less than put less than ideal He can't he can't just make it However, he wants because people still have to have freedom and then some people need to get saved whereas we would say the reason people don't get saved is because God simply chose not to save them and that's That's God's prerogative and we we uphold God's sovereign prerogative to to choose those things and in here's back to like pop culture media sort of stuff like I Don't I don't know how you feel about this, but I'm when I watch especially time-travel movies anytime a time-travel movie you know you go back in time and you change an event and then now the future is different and that's really where the The The plot hole that comes out of that is is what makes multiverse theory necessary Because now you've changed the past but that hit that future did exist differently.

29:57

So now there's two different futures and you get a fork but Back to the future Yeah, it didn't they didn't they didn't deal with that right they didn't deal with That the fact that there was a future where where Marty actually came from that was different than the future that he ended up changing and there's actually a pretty crazy if you really think through back to the future is pretty nuts because There's a reality where Marty gets sent back to 1985 and Biff's in charge, right? He like owns the world like Donald Trump and But he didn't there's a Marty that got sent back to that 1985 but had no concept of why it was this way because he he's not the same Marty that went forward to 2015 got the Sports Almanac learned all this information and he's the one that shows up in 1985 that we follow that knows You know, whatever Why Biff's in charge? But but there is a Marty that was sent back to that time and had no idea why it was that way So he was just like going insane without that information.

31:02

Anyway that's First of all, this is why we would be friends the fact that I understood everything that you just said, but go ahead So that's that's one Time travel, I guess you could say time travel theory that's used in movies But but then there's another one where if you go back in time and you change an event all you're doing is establishing why the future is the way it is and it ends up being this predestined loop and that's every that's well, I guess not every but What's his name? I just lost his name the doctor who? No, well, yeah, I've never watched I never watched doctor who I don't know I don't know either.

31:47

I was taking a stab.

31:48

I was taking a stab in the dark.

31:49

No Nolan Christopher Nolan.

31:53

Um, I Guess specifically interstellar absolutely love interstellar, but interstellar is the best example of Because it's because he does there's like a predestined loop within a predestined loop and he's like He's showing you the same thing over and over and over again in movie And I hated pre interstellar when I first watched it But then when I started to understand what he was doing, it was like it's it's the best is the best time-travel movie ever made It's absolutely fascinating Very secularist and actually it it basically posits that humanity made itself in some crazy way But and then there's another everything predestination No, no, man.

32:35

Don't don't don't watch it just because of that It's uh, it's kind of perverse.

32:40

I'm not kind of perverse.

32:42

It's very perverse in But but basically the whole the whole concept of the movie is that I shouldn't even give it away it is mind-bogglingly predestined loop You know concept But for me whenever I watch those movies The predestined loop is the only satisfying way to watch a time-travel movie or else you get The Avengers and Avengers pointed out it was at the Hulk right that explained in endgame That when you time-travel it can't be like back to the future because you know the future was the way it was blah blah blah and he pokes fun at it and Then that so they're basically saying the only way time-travel can work is if there's multiverses but the other option is a predestined a predestined loop and so it's like Calvinism is space basically set is the Predestination nothing can change.

33:35

It doesn't matter what you do sort of at least, you know, there is a timeline that can't be altered Whereas Molin ism would more reflect this idea of like no, there's a million different ways It could have gone and those are they're all just as as truly potential You know, it's up.

33:54

Sorry to go off on that tangent.

33:56

No, no, I love it and again, this is we could sit around a fire and you know since you're the reformed pub we could sit around a fire with a with a couple of a Couple of drinks and talk this.

34:08

Oh, yeah all right, so getting back to when you were talking about the the idea of the multi The way that it shows itself out in movies and and and we we live in a culture that does Really honor film as as as the most important medium that we have, you know as far as you know Everybody wants everything to be on film even even the stories of the Bible everybody wants the stories of the Bible on film, which I know is some people are we get the the issue of the Second commandment violation in regards to yeah films like chosen and things like that But people want things on film and and they say art imitates life and life imitates art And I think also art influences how we view life art art art You know, it becomes the the teacher.

35:00

So a lot of people What they learn in school is actually in it less important in one sense than what they're learning from the the Mediums that are coming to them through television movies Instagram Facebook all of these things.

35:16

This is how they're they're digesting information so again as you said in the original the original quote is that these things are that this is It's being pushed on us these ideas and so people are talking about multiverse theory Like it's like it's a real thing.

35:33

And then again, we've got Molin ism Which is a theology which it and I know somebody may listen to this and say you're not being fair You're not representing when you say Molin ism is the multiverse theory.

35:42

I Understand that they only believe one universe was actuated.

35:46

They don't believe in multiple Actuation, right, but the idea they do believe in multiple potentialities.

35:51

That's a word you said the idea is that all things are ultimately potential and I know you didn't get a chance to watch this but just last weekend Dr.

36:02

James White Debated a man named Tim Stratton.

36:07

Dr.

36:07

Tim Stratton.

36:07

I'm gonna give him the credit.

36:09

Let's do dr.

36:09

James White and dr Tim Stratton debated on the subject of Molin ism and Debated the the comparing Molin ism with Calvinism and is Molin ism biblical and dr Stratton believes certainly that it is and and he even says, you know, it's not about Molina It's what the Bible says and he tries to make these biblical arguments using passages that use the word Would such as when it talks about what Sodom and Gomorrah would have done had they heard the gospel, you know Jesus talks about that when he's talking to Tyre and Sidon, you know, if Sodom and Gomorrah had heard this, you know They would have repented and so they use those as the arguments as to what could or would have happened but dr.

36:49

Stratton Said that he believes that this is a necessary thing Because if we hold to the Calvinistic view That God is sovereign over all things then we have to we have to say then that God is The and he I want to say use the word author, but I could be wrong again I've only listened to it one time But basically God is the author or the cause of the most horrendous acts of history such as child rape And that's always the one everybody goes to is the you know A child is raped and God is the cause so you as a theologian you as a person who has Has has talked about this and had conversations about this a lot How do you deal with that subject and for for those who don't know that the the bigger? Concept here is what's called theodicy or justifying God's righteousness in view of evil in the world How do you deal with that when somebody comes and says well if Calvinism is true, then God is the one responsible for Child rape or something like that.

37:49

What's your what is or do you have you ever had someone? Approach you with a question like that Yeah So well, first of all the I didn't watch like you say I didn't watch that debate But I mean as you were saying like the the the sort of down-to-brass-tacks Explanation of why well, you know Molin is a must be true from Stratton's own words It's just so incredibly obvious that that that's what he would say because that's literally why Molin ism exists Because of that question there there is no other reason and that's that's the reason Everybody rejects the reformed view of of God being sovereign Because you know the you can't well I mean, I think they're the actual reason is because we have to be sovereign over our own lives And we can't have somebody over us.

38:41

We we kick against that every opportunity we get even as Christians But yeah to answer the question It was Bonson and always ready that I think gave me The best clarity at least like early on and just gave me the sort of the wording but um You know, we look we look at Scripture a Great example is in Genesis in with Joseph, you know, Joseph Joseph is Betrayed by his brothers thrown into a pit sold into slavery lied about by a woman who accuses him of Trying to rape her thrown into into prison And eventually at the end of his life after all of this undue suffering unjust suffering Um his entire life.

39:38

He he he could have been and if it was me, I would have been asking god What are you like? Why why are you treating me this way? It's so unfair.

39:45

The whole thing is so unfair um, and then at the end of the story the end of the book of genesis the almost the the Summary of the book is his brothers come to him.

39:58

They're cowering because their father's dead and they're they're Pleading for him to be merciful to them Because they treated him so badly all those years ago And joseph responds am I in the place of god he says what you meant for evil God meant for good so There is evil in the world and the people who perpetrate that evil They they had evil in their hearts and they will be held accountable for their evil but God has a good purpose in those same actions that we call evil because evil men perpetrated them and evil came out of them But god is doing something good through it and that's actually true of everything that happens in history And you you know, you get into gory details of it And yeah, you can you can make it sound very very bad and it is very very bad evil is really evil uh, but if we truly understand that for example the father Had his son nailed to the cross uh By wicked men the only innocent person who's ever lived was treated So unfairly and murdered uh god Decreed for that to take place and he did it for the salvation of Of all of his people and all you know throughout history and we will worship god for all of eternity Because of this amazing sacrifice that christ that christ made on our behalf but that's something that god decreed and it was an evil act in In the sense that the people who carried it out were perpetrating evil so, uh the way bonson phrases it is that uh There is a morally sufficient reason For all the evil that takes place in the world morally sufficient So that means that god has a good reason and that's something that we're not going to really understand until We might not fully understand ever because we will always be learning um, even in eternity, but we will have a sufficient of sufficient understanding of uh, god's good intentions behind even the most evil things that happen uh here and now On this earth and that that's really what gives christians the ability to suffer.

42:14

Well If if i'm always questioning god's goodness in or if even allowing or even saying this molinist god Actuated this universe And i'm going through horrible suffering well The whole purpose of molinism was to say god didn't want you to suffer in that way.

42:33

So But he had to allow it because there was a greater end at the end that you know So you had to go through this basically for the the well-being of whatever the other people who are going to get saved or whatever But god didn't want it But If god didn't you know, so as a as a calvinist we can we can actually say there's a sense in which god did want this To happen and he wants me to learn something from this.

42:58

He wants me to look to grow from this He wants me to be sanctified From this and that's that's only possible if you can actually say god ordained this for my life That's right.

43:09

And as dr.

43:10

James white has often said It Outside of calvinism you find yourself with purposeless evil but in our understanding there is nothing that happens that happens without purpose and therefore when I Minister to a person who is going through a time where they have experienced the the Terror at the hands of evil men or they have experienced a tragedy I can look to them and I can say we may not know what the purpose is But god does and that this did not happen apart from his divine decree that you know, I may not say it that way when i'm facing the person who lost a child or Something but but I can still look to them and say god has caused all things to work together for good yeah, and you can even you know, you can even encourage them to cry out to god and say why god and They can weep to him.

44:01

They can there's a there's a sense in which even in scripture We were encouraged to almost criticize god to his face as we're praying to him as his children Why would you do this? Why would you allow this to happen? Um, you know, that's what that's what david's saying when he says why be forsaken me.

44:17

That's what he meant, right? He's actually it's like it's like my circumstances are so terrible.

44:22

Why why would you do this to me? and And if if you have any other view Then god's absolute sovereignty over that situation The the picture that you would get of god answering that is like Sorry I kind of had to I don't know Like yeah, it's I know it sucks and I didn't want to do this to you and or you know Let it happen to you or whatever It's but no we we can actually have a we can have them cry out to the lord in those times of of absolute suffering And he can comfort them and say, you know, this this was necessary.

44:54

It's for your good.

44:55

It's for my glory And that's that's the biblical answer so You know Why not have a theology that lines up with the biblical answer to that question? Absolutely.

45:06

Absolutely now I want to again I know you didn't listen to the debate and I want to ask you one other question based on something that tim stratton said I think I think that you'll be able to answer this well, even though you didn't get to hear it He made the argument through the debate that he is still reformed even though he holds to the molanism Uh view and you as the uh, you as the as the calvinist today that you get that title You're the calvinist today.

45:31

What would you say to someone who says? Yeah, i'm reformed.

45:34

I hold to the five points of count because he did he said he said I hold every every uh, Every one of the five points I you know, I can affirm total depravity which again, I don't think that he does because he holds to an absolute free will which is a the very Issue with total depravity.

45:49

Are we did he say that? Oh, yes No, he said he said I can I can hold to all he is.

45:54

I believe he's a graduate of uh of a reformed seminary, uh, yeah, I don't know what he said.

46:02

He said specifically that uh, he holds to an absolute free will Well, uh, he he said that molanism upholds, uh, the freedom of the will yeah, I mean throughout the debate He was he was a libert he used he used the term libertarian free will that he believes in a libertarian free will And yet he says he's still a five-point calvinist.

46:23

So what do you what are your thoughts on that? Well, I was gonna say when I was sort of explaining molanism I was I was gonna uh, Tack on the statement that that's why it would be so incredibly pathetic for a calvinist to uh claim to be uh a molanist Okay, just just stop I want I want the audience to meditate on on that thought That's an awesome It would be incredibly pathetic for a calvinist to be a molanist.

46:56

That will be the tagline of today's show, but go ahead nice Well, it's it's it's pathetic Like I you know, like I said, the the most telling thing is the origin uh, but it would be pathetic just because you're you're abandoning the the entire history of You know of your tradition but it's also just completely pathetic because it's it goes against everything that we're saying when we Say that we're a calvinist.

47:23

We're saying that god is sovereign We're saying that that men are incapable in their freedom to make this choice because we're enslaved to sin We're you know dead and all these things um, and the whole purpose that molanism serves is to rescue god away from being um responsible for the bad things that happen in the universe and it's uh giving man back his his his will his freedom his ability to to really Weigh the pros and cons of coming to christ Will I make this choice? Because when when the whole basis of molanism is that if god puts in the right input Then a certain amount of people will what respond to the gospel of their own volition? That's the whole point but men can't respond to the gospel of their own volition And if you if you say they can then you're not a calvinist You're you simply can't be um And you've you've just stripped god of his sovereignty.

48:23

You've stripped god of being the comforter when you're suffering all the beautiful uh consistent Theology that that flows out of those five points Um, you've you've cut the whole thing off at at at the base So it's it's silly.

48:39

It is just silly to say i'm a calvinist and also a molanist.

48:43

You're you're not You've you're absolutely not you cannot be a calvinist and you you can have the molanism thing But the calvinist i'm sorry is taking away your calvinist card That's right, that's what we're here for yeah you you letting them know Okay, i've got a couple of uh, uh as we begin to sort of maybe draw to a close I have a couple of sort of rapid fire questions on going back to the multiverse thing But still in the still in the same category of of this first of first thing Uh, i'm a father.

49:15

I have five children.

49:16

Do you have any children? I have four.

49:18

Yep four children.

49:19

Okay, so you're at the pro level we call those pro level dads Yeah, I I had a had a gentleman on I I interviewed conley owens Uh, he wrote uh wrote a book about money and ministry.

49:30

So I interviewed him a couple weeks ago.

49:31

He has eight kids And I said wow, that's a pro pro level dad pro level dad.

49:37

So, uh with kevin young has ten right nine or ten Yeah, that's awesome So what we're doing is we're populating the world with more calvinists we're just creating calvinists Or as presbyterians would say making disciples Yes.

49:52

Yes.

49:53

Yes the covenant physically making them All right.

49:56

So, uh, so a question for a dad a presbyterian dad.

50:00

Uh, what is your What is your feeling about your children watching these multiverse movies now? I know movies like interstellar and things like that, which would be which would be beyond them But but even movies like the marvel like the recent spider-man movie Uh, which which focused on which was which was very nostalgic for me.

50:18

I'll be honest I really liked it because it brought back toby mcguire it brought back andrew garfield And it was a very interesting way that they told that story by bringing in all the different spider-man Uh characters you're spoiling it for me.

50:29

I haven't seen it yet.

50:30

Oh, i'm sorry.

50:31

Oh my god this I've been on the internet enough to know that know a little bit of what happens, but I haven't seen it yet Okay.

50:38

All right spoiler alert.

50:39

I'll go back and add that in i'll go back and add a line The next two seconds we'll have a spoiler and I apologize.

50:46

Okay.

50:46

So with that, um, I enjoyed it But do you think that parents should? Should be having these conversations with their kids Should they be avoiding watching these films with their children just to not to not confuse their worldview? Because again, I understand it so i'm able to see it with those eyes, but what children may not so what are your thoughts? Yeah, um I think it the the judgment call is really based on um How well you think that they have been educated? In the sense that they're able to defend their own worldview Against whatever philosophy is going to be coming at them.

51:26

Um so You know if they're watching anything, uh, it's gonna happen actually Uh, have you seen you seen frozen 2 right? Mm-hmm Okay, yeah that that movie people.

51:41

I don't think people really understand Quite what's going on with uh, it's elsa, right? She's the the main nice nice queen.

51:50

Yeah Yeah She's literally Like the fifth element right like in the sense that she she's literally god like and she's being called into This elemental thing and you know the whole thing that happens in the forest and all that stuff But she's she's returning to her godhood She's actually like the creator of the entire universe and she's she's discovering her her actual purpose as An element of of the universe like she she literally is god.

52:22

It's crazy.

52:22

Uh, we don't even so my point in bringing that up is that like these these philosophies are coming at them in ways that you know, It's it's crazy how much it's there kind of you have to dig sometimes to see exactly what they're saying, but um So yeah, they they always need to be prepared to confront whatever worldviews coming and you know good conversations That's why family worship is so important that uh, and hopefully you can discuss these Can you know consistently talking about applying the bible? to you know the experiences in life, but also the Movies we're watching and the books we're reading and things like that that you can be confronting your kids with with the scripture but you know, we we spent most of our time talking about the multiverse, but I think the The brain in the vat thing I think is gonna it seems to me is is becoming more and more popular um Like the the beginning of the matrix the new matrix movie.

53:23

Did you see the new one? No, I haven't so feel free to spoil it.

53:26

So that will be i'll feel better if you spoil that because I spoiled.

53:30

Yeah Well, well the movie sucks i'll say that Yeah, it was such a disappointment but Um, but and I and I thought from the first half of it that it was going to be a very different movie because The it was so dark Uh the beginning of that movie because it's literally watching a man go insane Trying to figure out if reality is real And he's taking drugs and he's seeing a psychiatrist And uh, you know the the plot ends up being neo remembers the matrix because he's been sort of reinserted But they're tricking him and they're they're giving him like a little taste of it So he'll like because I guess, you know, he's powering the matrix through whatever really really stupid But the darkness of a man going insane questioning reality um That's that's like legitimate mental illness that people actually struggle with and uh So I I think That answer that that is such a good answer from satan for The the world we live in right now that it's all a hallucination.

54:41

It's not just multiverses like that.

54:42

That's you know, that's one thing um, that's you know questioning the the Concreteness of this reality and the the finality of it but to say this isn't even real this is all just in your imagination Like that's that's smart That's if if if if you know that that baby in the in the womb is a life and you can't explain that away anymore And you know that the the big bang uh Just simply can't answer the question of the origin of all things because what happened before the big bang If you think about that for five seconds, it dissipates like it's a it's a completely ludicrous idea Um, so if you ever have to come face to face with that, well Oh, it's it's all just a hallucination.

55:26

None of it's real now, you know, what's the answer beyond that? You know who knows but you don't have to know anymore because you're a brain of that you can only have access to the Senses and all the things that you're in right now.

55:36

Um, so I I think that's I think I actually think that's the much more dangerous uh thing to uh that people are being sort of exposed to and encouraged to question reality itself Absolutely What's interesting the the the movie bliss which i've never seen but i've seen a I sent you the the little uh, Yeah, I watched that trailer breakdown of it.

55:58

There's literally a brain in a vat There's a there's a there's a there's like a pool and it's got brains connected to a box and that box is simulating everything It's like it's literally what we're talking about.

56:09

So so there's a picture of it there Well, another quick rapid fire question for you is the question of as a minister Okay, i'm i'm a pastor and uh, I pastor a church small church in in jacksonville.

56:21

Uh, uh, and I don't know.

56:23

I are you I should have asked this before are you are you an elder pastor at your church? No, i'm a churchman Okay, okay Um, do you think from the pew then because this is why where I think this is very helpful Do you think from the pew? that as a pastor That I should be or that other pastors should really be addressing these issues and saying we need to be On guard against these things and particularly not just in the movies but even the molinism and the things that are that are attached to these same concepts of Of pulling us away from sound theology and putting us into this this wrong view what what level of Interaction do you think we should be having? Uh at the at the pulpit level Are you a presuppositionalist? Yes.

57:11

Yes, sir.

57:12

Okay Yeah, uh, so I think that uh, I don't I don't think there's any need to like specifically point these things out as if they come up in sermons if they come up in texts and like as an illustration of You know lies from the devil and all these things Um, I think that you should you know It's always good to do that stuff um, but I think the more important thing is to just really enforce a solid biblical worldview um, so you can answer these things and you know, I'm presuppositional too and uh, It it's the only it's the only answer, you know If you're if you're truly presuppositional if you if that if that light has come on and you sort of realize like Like oh the impossibility of the contrary like it's it's it simply can't be any other way God's world is is reflected in god's word um, and so if you can make sure that people understand that then that that it covers everything because The world literally can't exist in any other way.

58:18

There's no other basis for the universe that we currently You know find ourselves in um, so yeah, that's I think the The more important thing is to just give people a solid understanding of why the scripture is the only answer for uh for reality Yeah, and that goes that that sort of goes along with the old.

58:42

Um, uh apologetics conversation where And you've probably heard this example where someone talks about the way they train The treasury agents is not by showing them all the false things but by Having them study that which is true having them study the real bill and if they know what the real bill has and all of the elements of the real build and then they don't have to Study all the faults because they know what the real is And so yeah, I think that's that's it A good thought is is focusing on on what's true and not only am I a presuppositionalist, but i'm also Uh verse by verse pastor.

59:18

So I I wouldn't just I wouldn't just i've been in genesis for three years I wouldn't just stop and say okay i'm gonna preach on but But at the same time, uh, you're right.

59:28

There are times Yeah illustrations things like that All right.

59:32

Well as we draw to a close i'm gonna ask you a couple of quick questions Do you have anything that you would like to recommend to our listeners on this subject any books media or anything that you can think? of that might be Uh might be helpful in this regard other than the movie calvinist, which everybody should watch Yeah, um Well, I I would recommend reading van till and bonson and uh go back to the the og guys on on apologetics and because yeah, I I really do think uh, you know, even as I was typing that That post out even as my myself Like I said, i've i've had experiences that have sort of led me to think this way this this satanic way of you know Questioning reality and whenever those questions sort of haunt me um The the only thing that settles it is just recognizing that like like no, no the scriptures Actually give me a basis for the reality.

01:00:30

I find myself myself in Um, so I think a good presuppositional understanding of of god's word Uh, so yeah bonson van till that's what i'd recommend awesome Uh now I know you have the calvinist movie you have the the movie on worship Did I understand that you've got something else in the in the in the pipeline as well or am I am I incorrect on that? Is the is the worship? Um, i'm not sure how much I can Uh reveal so I also worked on uh, american gospel.

01:01:00

I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with that My movies are right now available on agtv, which is a streaming service that the american gospel guys uh put out and uh, I Well, yeah, so I started working on A project i'll keep it vague with some people And the movie is about civil disobedience Oh, okay.

01:01:21

That's uh, very important the world's the world's going a little crazy right now and uh, we need some Need some clarity on what in the world christians are supposed to do.

01:01:31

So That'll be exciting and probably illegal at some point Well, we'll pray that it stays legal long enough for us to be able to see it Yeah Appreciate that.

01:01:43

Yeah Well less I want to thank you for coming on the program today I hope it was an encouragement to you I know you've been an encouragement to me and to our listeners and thank your family for us for giving us this time with you Excellent.

01:01:55

Thank you so much.

01:01:55

This was a blast Great And thank you listener for being with us today on conversations with the calvinist And I want to encourage you if you have any questions on this subject Please feel free to email me at calvinist podcast at gmail.com.