April 17, 2017 Show with Bill Webster, Tony Costa, Anthony Uvenio, and George Jensen on “Roman Catholic Lures to Dissatisfied Protestants”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 17th day of April 2017.

I hope you all had a very blessed, safe and joyful Easter weekend as we who are believers in our risen Christ celebrated that resurrection and I am so glad to be back on the air with you the day after Easter Sunday.

The Lure of Rome to Dissatisfied Protestants

We have perhaps what is a record-breaking Iron Sharpens Radio program today in regard to the number of guests we have on. I don't think we've ever had four or actually yeah four guests and one host make five participants and this is going to be a fascinating program on the theme Roman Catholic Lores to Dissatisfied Protestants and today we have on the program Dr. William Webster of Christian Resources, Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, Anthony Uvinio who will be joining us a little later from New York Apologetics and in studio with me is Reverend George Jensen who is the pastor of Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you all to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my brothers and friends.

Greetings. Thank you. Okay and what I'm going to do is first I'm going to announce our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own about Roman Catholicism, about the problems that exist within Evangelicalism and Protestantism that make members of those groups susceptible to the lores of Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy and of course other cults and religions or false religions but we are specifying or focusing our attention today on Roman Catholicism.

I want to start with a little bit of a testimony of our in-studio guest Reverend George Jensen who's pastor of Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania and not long ago he wanted to meet with me because he was starting to question whether or not the Roman Catholic Church had valid claims to their authority and to their biblical faithfulness and to their soundness and I'm going to let him explain in his own words in a little bit regarding how seriously he may have considered conversion but those are things I'll let him say in his own words but before I do that I'd like to get a little bit of your background and testimony.

Pastor George tell us about your upbringing in your home, what kind of a religious atmosphere if any you had and how eventually the Lord providentially drew you to himself and and how you eventually became a pastor in the Church.

Of God denomination. Why. Thank you Chris, I'd be happy to share that. I was raised near here over in Perry County, Pennsylvania in a wonderful Christian family. My mother and father shared the gospel with me and I became a believer, was saved in our living room home and at a later point I was eight years old.

At that point and later I was baptized as a believer and continued following the Lord after that of course had some ups and down times through my teenage years and since that time I had a desire, a calling I guess I should say to be a pastor.

And I guess the calling came about because of different things I'd seen in life and just wanted to help people and be a blessing to others and I thought God was calling me and drawing me. So I submitted to the call and went to college, taught in a Christian school for two years and then went on to our denominational seminary, Weinbrenner Theological Seminary in Findlay, Ohio and became pastor in two small churches northeast of here and then in 2001 came to the Enola First Church of God and been there.

Ever since. Now is the Church of God, the Findlay, Ohio denomination, is that the faith that you were.

Raised in, the denomination you were raised in? Since I was 12, before that we had gone to a number of different churches, yes, but we'd always been solidly evangelical. But I consider my solid upbringing since the age of 12 with the Churches of God, Findlay, Ohio, yes.

And just.

Because of the fact that there are a number of different churches of God, as you know, some are Pentecostal, some are not, would you say that a fair description of the Church of God, Findlay, Ohio, would be Wesleyan Baptists or very close to Nazarenes?

Would that be an accurate.

Summary? I believe that would be, yes. We came out of the Second Great Awakenings, a revival that occurred in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. The founder, John Weinbrenner, was of that persuasion, so yes, we are of a revivalist group since the early 1820s and I think your description is accurate.

A non-Pentecostal, non-charismatic denomination. That's right, and we are, as far as we know, we are the oldest and the very first group to ever take on the title Church of God. Before us, individual congregations did but the research shows that we're the first denomination to.

Take that title, yes. And this area that I now live in, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and more specifically Carlisle, this area is saturated with Church of God, Findlay, Ohio, congregations. I mean, is this the most popular denomination in this area of Pennsylvania?

I don't know about that, but one of our pastors, James Moss Sr., did a study and Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, is the most saturated county in the country with Churches of God, Findlay,.

Ohio, people. Because how many congregations in that denomination do you have right here in.

Carlisle? Well, I'm not sure, but yeah, we have an ample amount. You are correct.

Okay, and tell me why you not long ago, I think it was back perhaps in October of 2016 or somewhere near about there, you contacted me and said you wanted to meet with me because you were beginning to have questions about the Church of Rome, things that seemed to be appealing to you and you were wondering how much of their claims to authority and biblical orthodoxy and harmony with the Christian faith of all ages they really had.

You started to see something attractive about them, and I'd like you to basically say it in your own words.

Yeah, I think that's accurate. I'd call it more of a curiosity. It was never that I was going to make a decision to convert or anything like that, but I will be honest with you. I, like a lot of people, have become disillusioned with some trends in evangelicalism.

In some cases, the dumbing down of doctrine. Doctrine doesn't seem as important. There's a lot of emphasis on church growth and wisdom to pack the church and to satisfy people. And just some other things, too, some things we see in our society where even some of the moral stances with the changing of the definition of marriage by the Supreme Court, even some evangelical groups are, I guess, at least tempted by that, or some have decided to go that route, and it's very troubling.

And the other thing, too, I would say, Chris, is how much of evangelicalism seems to be disconnected from some of the historical traditions in the church and the Reformation. And you go to a lot of churches and it may feel like a rock concert more than a worship service, and we see these trends throughout evangelicalism.

And I had found out through just some of my research, I was stunned at the number of people who were evangelical Christians, even pastors, who were considering or downright converting to Catholicism, and it made me pause.

It's kind of like if your local mall gets a new store, and you're walking along in the mall, and you don't go into the store, but you stop, and you're like, what's that? And you look at it for a moment because you're curious.

So, yes, I was curious about this to find out what is this all about? What is going on? And so you're one of the ones I contacted because in my research, I watched several of the debates that you hosted with James White and others, and when I found out you were in the area, I said, oh, that's great.

I'm going to call this man and talk to him.

And it was a wonderful conversation, and I'm so glad that I actually met you. It's been a blessing to me personally to have you begin as acquaintance and have this grow into a friendship, and I'm looking forward to what the Lord may have in store for this friendship in the future.

But Dr. William Webster, you are a founder of Christian Resources, and just to give a little bit of background on you, would it be safe to say that your church that you are actually a pastor of and your theological makeup would be baptistic and sovereign grace believing, reformed but not identical to perhaps the Westminster Standards or the London Baptist Confession, somewhere in that orbit?

Yeah, we would be.

And for anybody listening, if they want to look up Dr. Webster's website, it's christiantruth .com, christiantruth .com. And many of our listeners know that I have a long-time friendship with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and that I have orchestrated many debates between Dr. White and Roman Catholic apologists.

But many of you don't know that my friendship with Dr. William Webster began prior to my having ever met Dr. White. And in fact, that very first Roman Catholic debate that I was challenged to help organize, I was challenged by a Roman Catholic friend of mine by the name of Greg Lloyd, who is a very conservative, traditionalist Catholic in the eastern right, not eastern orthodoxy, but eastern right of Roman Catholicism.

And he challenged me to find a Protestant debater to face Jerry Matitix in a debate. And Jerry Matitix was the first pastor in the Presbyterian Church in America, PCA, to convert to Roman Catholicism.

Well, whether or not he was a pastor or not, I don't know, but he was an ordained minister, I should say, in the PCA. And Bill Webster was the very first person I called, and it was Bill Webster that said that Dr. James R. White would be the man for the job.

But Bill, I know that you have a very thorough knowledge of church history, that you have many recordings of lectures and sermons and messages explaining the origins of Roman Catholicism, the doctrine and beliefs of Roman Catholicism, the history of Roman Catholicism.

This claim that is very alluring to Protestants, that they are the ancient church, going back to Christ who pronounced that the Apostle Peter was to be their first pope, and that everything that they believe and do and practice today has its roots in that ancient church of Jesus Christ himself.

Now, this is really fiction, isn't it? For lack of better terms.

Well, Christ says it's the rock. Justin interprets it probably more than any other church father. You have more comments by him on that particular passage of Scripture than any of them. But he makes a statement in interpreting what the rock means, and he says Christ did not build a church.

He's an unorthodox church believes, and what the reformers of the Protestant church, contrary to the Roman Catholic, that passage by the fathers themselves is contrary to that which is put forth by the Roman Catholic Church, in particular at Vatican I, where it dogmatized the interpretation of Matthew 6 and John 21, establishing the foundation of Roman primacy.

But that did not take place in the church for many centuries. Historically, of you investigate what the early church taught, repudiate the Roman Catholic view, and because that is the foundational passage for the authority, contradict their and the historical.

Facts. And Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, you recently were involved in a public moderated debate here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania that I orchestrated. You debated a friend of mine that I've known since the 1990s, Dr. Robert St. Genes, who's a Roman Catholic apologist, the founder of Catholic Apologetics International.

You debated on the theme, Mary, Sinless Queen of Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace. And during that debate, it really was quite obvious very quickly on that the core of this difference that you have with Dr. St. Genes, in fact, that the heirs of the Reformation have with Rome, is Sola Scriptura, that the scripture alone is the sole infallible inerrant authority for the church.

And if you could tell us a bit more about that, about why that is such a central and important and vital theme when it comes to this whole question about whether the Church of Rome and Eastern Orthodox are sister churches, whether they are true churches with some falsehood or false churches that happen to have some truth.

Dr. Costa?

I think that, yes, during my debate with who will remember, if you remember during this...

Right. He even said, who cares when it comes to the Apostle Paul describing to Timothy, describing the scriptures to Timothy as being God-breathed. He said, so what to that as well.

Exactly. When I challenged... And that term is used of scripture. It's never used of the church. Them actually did not agree unanimously with the so-called doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. They believe that Mary was guilty of certain sins like ambition and pride and so on.

In fact, the issue that the Franciscans and the Dominicans were apparitions to judge anyone and then set that against... That is a major problem, extremely a major problem. And even the Immaculate does not believe in original sin.

It does not believe in the imputation of original sin. Also maintain, it denies also on a sacred tradition.

So, just out of curiosity, do the Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox believe in the sinlessness of Mary? Is that something that she ever achieved in this life, in their opinion?

So they sided with Pelagius on that. Yes, and people connect that.

So basically, you guys are both saying that when a Protestant is faced with a dilemma like Pastor George Jensen faced about the corruption of the faith that is rampant in evangelicalism today, where you have all kinds of bizarre and unbiblical and anti-biblical and heretical and dare I say perhaps even occasionally blasphemous things going on, it is not as if the Church of Rome would be the first place to run because their beliefs are comparatively, even though some of them are very old, centuries old, they're comparatively much more modern innovations and developments and mutations of what the Church began believing in the first century.

Am I right? So they are not like the the faithful, historically pure option to run to when we notice problems with an evangelicalism.

Would you like... No, I would say the evangelicalism of the Roman Catholic Church, the New Testament writers who will want to have their ears turned to myths, the idea of apostasy is nothing new and I think we are clearly seeing that in evangelicalism.

In Roman Catholicism you also have a lot of liberal as well. Part of evangelicalism seems the option isn't just to jump... Yeah, if you could actually be very clear...

Dr. Costa and then I'll go to you, Dr. Webster. Dr. Costa, if you could be very clear and succinct about what is different about the Gospel of Rome and the Gospel of the Reformation, the Gospel that we have as heirs of the Reformation accepted as biblical truth, because obviously the Reformers are not the authors of truth.

The Bible is where we find our sole authority for faith and practice, but if you could tell us what succinctly is the difference.

Is the Gospel of bringing together the Reformers for the work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. The Gospel of Rome and the Orthodox Church is not that Calvary already done. So Christ hanging on the cross and receiving the punishment that sinners are due.

As our substitute, that was essential, required, but it is insufficient and inadequate according.

To Rome, correct? Contradicts the idea of redemption in Roman faith. Calls and cannot make that claim. They could claim that people receive justification at baptism, but they do not believe in eternal security, that that person will be ultimately glorified.

And so in the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Church, the chain of redemption is broken.

All right, we're going to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com and our listener, Joe in Slovenia. We will get to your question as soon as we return from the break and anyone else that is waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to.

A visit to The Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit The Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to The Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson.

If.

You just tuned in to today's episode of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we have a packed house here. We have Dr. Bill Webster of Christian Resources, Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary. We are going to be joined, God willing, very shortly by Anthony Eugenio of New York Apologetics, and in studio we have Reverend George Jensen, the pastor of Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Dr. Bill Webster, one of the things that you commonly hear from Roman Catholic apologists in regard to the fact that although Roman Catholicism has been tainted with liberalism, and he even has a pope that is more liberal by far than any pope in their history, in reality when it's boiled down to the nuts and bolts of things, it doesn't really matter, because the pope can say basically anything he wants to say, unless he proclaims something ex cathedra, or defines it as dogma, something that the faithful must always believe.

His opinion is merely only his opinion, and they think that gets them around the accusation of developing liberalism and even apostate notions of things. They will say, whereas we in the Protestant world, the evangelical world, we are our own popes, and we have a blueprint for anarchy known as sola scriptura, and that when we use only our bibles without a magisterial authority, we will be led into all kinds of heresy, and they think that they have some kind of superior edge on us with an infallible.

Magisterium. But if you could comment on that, Dr. Bill Webster. Well, the a doctrinal standard established by Rome, you have many apostalable declarations by the bishops. You come back to the whole issue of what is the church.

Writings of the church confirmation is one of which to measure. If you go back to the Old Testament in Judaism, and build it.

Amen. And Dr. Tony Costa, would you not say that although the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholic apologists will use this in their rhetoric very often, they have been stalwarts in defense of the life of the unborn, in defense of the permanence of marriage, and many other things, or a number of other things anyway, that are integral parts of biblical morality and faithfulness.

But when you militate against the gospel, when you begin to offer prayer and adoration to men and women who are finite sinners, men and women of flesh and bone and blood like you and I are, these are atrocities in the faith that are just as serious, just as damnable, as things that we would consider products of liberalism.

Are they not, Dr. Costa? Society, be careful that we don't fall into the trap of so-called mere Christianity. You'll hear this word, of course C .S. Lewis made it famous, but the Creed, Calvadon, and Sophine, the gospel, those are theological confessions that he and the apostles had preached.

He says if anyone preaches any gospel other than God upon someone, it's important to realize that even though we may have common ground in terms of what should not be tracked as well, I mean, we were talking a little bit of remnant has always been there, and you will notice that the majority, and in fact the Lord Jesus Christ himself, I think in Luke 13 verse 3, we've heard, if you're not little flock, it is my father's will to give you the Holy Spirit.

This reminds us of the days of Elijah when national Israel was in a national state of apostasy. Prophet Elijah thought that he was the only one left, and in fact that's what he said. He said they've killed all your prophets, Lord, and I'm not better than my father's.

Take that to remind Elijah that Elijah was not on the throne. Elijah was not the sovereign of the universe. The Lord had to remind Elijah that he still had the genuine, regenerate, believing believers like Judas Iscariot with the church.

And I just want to check to see if my friend Anthony Eugenio has.

Joined us yet. Are you there, Anthony? I'm here, and I'm absolutely delighted to be on the program today. In fact, I'm reconsidering my position on cessationism, because me being on a program, as educated as these men are, I'm honored to be on the same radio show with them.

Well, Anthony Eugenio, for our listeners who are unfamiliar with him, he is founder, co-founder of New York Apologetics. He's a dear friend of mine and a phenomenal supporter of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I thank God for him.

And before you give us a very brief summary of the event that you are organizing, which is going to be taking place in just a couple of weeks on Long Island, New York, tell us an abbreviated version of your own conversion out.

Of Rome to biblical Christianity. Oh, sure. I was a non-practicing Roman Catholic for about 33 years of my life. In 1951, the Lydia experience got opened. It was proposed to me that I could do it my way, and at the end of Psalm 50, be slaughtered on your altar.

And, you know, I idolized bulls, and it kind of really does point me in the direction, and I will run through any wall to get there. So this resonated with me when I heard that young bulls would be slaughtered on his altar.

It enabled me to believe and saved me right then and there. And from that moment on, it was fast forward. I had to know the answers that people, you know, growing up in New York especially, in many ways, although I'm not classically trained, I do have a distinct advantage over these men because I grew up in New York, and I continually argue with so many people.

As I started to see that they were true, you know, the grass withers, the flowers fade away, but the word of the Lord stands forever, I recognized coming out of Catholicism that they held to four sources of authority.

They held to holy tradition, the teaching magisterium of the Church, the Pope and his infallibility, and Scripture. Now again, from my point of view, I asked the question, well, which source out of all of those four sources is the only perfect source and will never fade away, will never change?

Obviously, that's Scripture on men, and men can and do change their minds forever. So if something is taught by men that is necessary for salvation and isn't included in Scripture, well then that contradicts 2 Timothy 3 .16, and then Scripture is not such a teaching that is necessary for salvation that are not in Scripture, such as believing that Mary was sinless and believing that without Mary, we wouldn't have salvation.

Without Mary. There's no salvation without Mary. That's what the Catholic Church's position was in the debate between Robertson Jennis and Dr. Tony Costa. Right, and I read there's a.

Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, his name is Alphonse Liguori, he says in his book, Devotions to Mary, I worship you, great Queen, and give thanks for the many favors you have bestowed on me in the past.

Most of all, I thank you for saving me from hell, which I have so often deserved. I promise ever in the future to serve you and to do what in me lies to win others to your love. In you, Mary, I put all my trust and all my hope of salvation.

So when a doctor of the church is worshiping Mary and putting all of his hope and faith in her for her salvation and acknowledges that she is the one who saved her, him, from hell, all I can conclude is this man doesn't know the Jesus of Scripture that I know.

I don't need to be, I don't think anybody needs to be classically trained to recognize that and see just how far off these people are when it comes to Mary and these doctrines. I think any power put into the hands of man is eventually.

Going to go astray where Scripture never will. Yes, and lest a Catholic listening say, well, you have kooks in Protestantism too who say all kinds of crazy things. Well, this is, Alphonse Liguori was canonized as a saint, and people pray to him right now.

So there's a bit of a difference between some evangelical nutjob, and we all know that they're out there, that's, they take up at least 80 of the content, and the iron sharpens iron when I'm trying to have guests refute them.

But this was a, this is a full-fledged saint according to the Catholic Church. But anyway, we have to go to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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