BYU Scholar

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Started off with some comments on Roman Catholicism, then played some interesting segments from a talk given by a BYU scholar. Took a call after the break that led to a discussion of a review of Greenlee’s new work on textual criticism. We went a bit long because I wanted to have enough time to decry the promulgation of a non-Christian, unbelieving, secularism in the study of the New Testament text. I see this as the chief apologetic issue of our day.

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a
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Tuesday morning the 17th Day of the month of February 2009.
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Thank you for Listening I was gonna say tuning in but tuning is sort of that's an irrelevancy anymore, isn't it?
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I mean is entering a URL the same as tuning really isn't Because I remember tuning folks.
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Let me tell you something. I remember what tuning was like we've been you are old We've been you are old
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Amazing how early the language has changed it has changed much but we still use old words because we're old
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But I guess you still call tuning in it doesn't really matter hey a couple things First of all, we're cheap around here.
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We don't have the special music. It used to work in Merc I used to be able I don't I do not know why this doesn't work anymore
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Sound 20th that way I like it when it works.
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The problem is when it doesn't work I have no idea. How do computers just heal themselves?
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It's Windows man. That's just that's just how it is. It's This way it is. Anyway, I Mentioned I don't know at least a month or so ago that I we were working on our next major debate and Then I didn't say anything about it and that's because it got sort of put off And the reason it got put off is interestingly enough
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Due to the conflict in Gaza Yes, how can a debate be put off due to a conflict in Gaza because obviously the debate has to do with Islam But we have now
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Established a date. I'm waiting for the specifics on the location, but I can tell you this much we are looking at May 2nd and 3rd two evenings and And this will be in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and It will be in the
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Islamic Society of Milwaukee That is right there in the heart of the city and I will be debating
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Zulfiqar Ali Shah one night on The reliability of the New Testament the second night on the reliability of the
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Quran or whichever order I'm not sure that order it's gonna go but That will be there in At their assembly hall on the ground of the mosque.
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And so we are really hoping to have a very good representation from the
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Islamic community and I'm very excited about that Some of you have seen we haven't been able to put up the entirety of the debate with dr
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Shah from Duke University Which was not technically a debate but we can call it a debate now because it's over with But it's very short and just sort of a almost just a preview of what we'll be able to do over the two nights in in Milwaukee in May and The encounter that we had was very encouraging
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We hope to be able to do a number of subjects. And so this will be the first step in that and so Very much looking forward to this and we'll be putting it up on the website as soon as we can
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And if you are in the Midwest I know a lot of you folks in the Midwest sort of feel like you're in the flyover zone and Most everything happens in California, Florida or New York and you don't get to be a part of it.
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Well Now you've you've got an opportunity. So May 2nd and 3rd in Milwaukee at the
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Islamic Society of Milwaukee and I will be debating dr Zulfikar Ali Shah on that particular on those particular subjects.
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So keep that in mind also just in passing I Will be at the end of May will be up with Bill McKeever in Salt Lake City at his conference up there doing my presentation on the
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New Testament, which Should be even better by then given all the study I'm doing in that area
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I'm not sure how to cram all that into the amount of time I'm given anymore It's almost frustrating but we'll be doing that at the end of May.
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I believe it's 29th as I recall folks down in down under gonna be down in Brisbane at the end of July as I recall down there in in Australia and Looking forward to that because it will be your cold time of the year and it'll be our hot time here so I don't mind getting out of the heat and humidity around that time of the year to be certain and then in September Those of you in the
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Santa Fe area. I was over at Calvary Santa Fe in September of 2008 and I'm gonna be back in September of 2009
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Bruce Where is gonna be speaking along with myself and others at the conference there? and so I'm definitely looking forward to that as well had a great time with the folks there at Calvary Santa Fe and Looking forward to getting back there.
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There was a restaurant right across the streets and about a blue tortilla or something like that I have no idea what where the name came from, but I love the food.
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It was good stuff. It was good stuff What was that? Son about our pie is it is it owned by Joe Arpaio?
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Why you know, he serves green bologna here. Oh, okay All right pink underwear.
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And yeah, okay, that's that's Joe Arpaio So anyway, so keep in mind folks if your church has been sitting there going
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I wonder I wonder I wonder If you don't get in touch with me There's no way we find out whether I can be of assistance to you or not
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So go ahead and ask as things are filling up fairly quickly right now for 2009 and Always enjoy the opportunity of getting in touch with folks and meeting folks and coming to speak and things like that now
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We are working on the possibility of doing things a little differently in the future Not that I want to stop going and meeting people
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But especially given the economic realities of the world we are really looking into using the internet and Here's just the idea that we're playing with right now be interested in your feedback on it
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But we are looking at what we've thought of doing is taking a number of my standard presentations videotaping them here and Providing the
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DVD to folks and then what we would do is we would use the internet You'd make the presentation because that's normally fairly lengthy and you know the internet can still be intermittent at times and then we would connect up and The new edition of Skype according to Dale may well be what we want to use
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It has desktop sharing. It has 640 by 480 instead of the small window.
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It's got a larger window higher resolution now and we would connect up either
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I would be in a conference room that we have or just at my desk like I do my YouTube videos and I would be able to see you and you would be able to see me and We would be able to do
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Q &A on the presentation that was just made Live that way but it wouldn't cost the church the the cost of The airline ticket and the hotel and the huge amounts of food that I eat
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Everybody who's had me in is chuckling at that because they're always sort of amazed it Anyway, but It would be a whole lot easier and then
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I get to go home afterwards which is another way of increasing the number of people we can get to and the
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Q &A and the sort of the Interaction that way and I can see you I can hear you You can see me hear me and we would have that type of interaction.
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So I think that would Would be pretty cool and more and more churches have the the high -speed internet access.
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They have digital projectors It's just a matter of sticking a webcam. I mean you could literally just put a
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Mac or something like that. My Mac has a built -in webcam. Most most of it have built -in webcams now you could simply put that on a table in front of a microphone and have people walk up and You could be projecting what's on it so they could see me
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I could see them and we could have interaction It'd be a great way of doing that. So I think that would that would be great.
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Yeah Thanks Barton channel just said just serve the doc Chinese that saves a ton of money
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Yeah, it certainly does except the Chinese food goes to waste too. So that's That's that's that's that good.
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So there's some of the things that's coming up there and I'm excited about that Have a number of things.
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I guess I'll start off with this one I It starts off saying this is going to be a first for me
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But I have to agree with James White in one of his latest videos. I know pigs are flying and cows have sprouted wings
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That's Matthew Bellisario the Catholic champion who? Normally has nothing but disdain for me likes to mock hats or Whatever, I'm sure he's probably making up a collection right now of bow ties images of bow ties as well, but He saw my video in which
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I lamented the recent Patrick Madrid Book that came out and I just pointed out something that's rather obvious.
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It's a it's a given it's a fact and I think Catholic apologists know this in their more honest moments and That is they live on fluff
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Their apologetic responses are fluff They don't listen to what people are saying about their fluffy responses.
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And when it comes to exegesis They just don't bother
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I think the Catholic apologists know in their heart of hearts That the scholarship of Rome today has
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Gone Far away from where they are theologically. It is not that you can't go find
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High -end scholarship quote -unquote in Roman Catholic Biblical studies,
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I mean you can go and get Fitzmeyer and Brown and so on so forth but they are as liberal as the day is long and The Catholic apologist doesn't find liberalism to be over amenable to apologetics
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And so they are really in stuck in a schizophrenic situation They believe firmly what was believed 150 years ago, but in their more honest moments, they've got admit
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They are not in the majority any longer especially when it comes to the viewpoints of priests and bishops and Those in authority within the
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Roman Catholic Magisterium and that gives them a bit of a problem and I understand that So Matthew Bellisario says there is a it says
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I Must admit there is a great lack of scholarship in the modern Catholic apologetics world today in general
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There is a real need for faithful Catholic scholars these days to step up and put out some scholarly works There isn't much too many of these
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Catholic apologetics works that are coming out these days There are rarely notes and sources given many of these books
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Although sometimes sufficient for novices are not worth much beyond that. This is not an attack on any of these
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Catholic apologists person I like Patrick Madrid and the folks at Catholic answers I do have a feel that we really need to step it up when it comes to scholarship printing a book with a few scripture
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Quotes with a few paragraphs to expound is just not gonna cut it anymore See, this is
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Matthew's problem. He's listening to the other side He needs to adopt the attitude of Jimmy Akin and Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid And that is the other side doesn't exist.
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We don't we don't yeah, we just stick our fingers in our ears. They're not there they're not worthy of our even listening to them see poor
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Matthews trying to interact with what's being said and That's where he's taking a different tack than everybody else's.
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I Think that the target audiences audience at novices has been exhausted. There's plenty material out now for that purpose
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We need in -depth apologetics material when we look at previous works by Catholic scripture scholars They would take a whole chapter to expound on each scripture passage using the church fathers church councils and exploration
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Languages to back up their work I will readily admit that I am no scholar and I do not have the tools to read
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Greek and expound upon the original Text and so forth I do I recite my sources whenever I write an article and provide the sources that I use so people can do their own research
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And verify what I've written etc, etc. But again Matthew's problem is that he's not taking the majority perspective and that is you don't listen to the other side you just worry about your audience and And that's
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I'm afraid what you've what you've got to do and that's the perspective they're coming from Then I was listening as I was writing yesterday
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To a couple things as you may have noticed on the blog this morning. I posted a
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Video that I I started working on last night. I wanted to get a bunch of videos done last night I was all revved up.
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I get a bunch of videos done last I got one But I was gonna make them like five to ten minutes
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I was actually make short videos remember short videos Says I got that YouTube partner thing man.
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It's like hey, this is great Let's put up an hour in five minutes and not everybody can take an hour in five minutes, and I understand that But if you're looking for information then it you know, it's useful along those lines and so I Last evening posted a single video 20 almost 26 minutes in length in which
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I waxed long In response to Christopher Hitchens one of the things I listened to on my ride yesterday is a fairly lengthy ride of about 40 miles and I listened to the beginning anyways over half
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I would say of The Frank Turk probably close to all now to think about it was it was in the audience questions and the audience questions
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Were getting less than useful, which is audience questions do do you have everything else with you, but Frank Turek and Christopher Hitchens on the existence of God and so I put up an article a
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YouTube video last night dealing with the Hitchens question that he always uses and Tried to more fully respond to it than I have in the past since I now had video rather than just simply
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Saying what he said and then responding to it And so I had talked about once before but it's a little bit longer now
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So I put that up and I want to respond I pulled five or six segments from Hitchens where he's making particular arguments, and I am going to also
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Play the part where he nails Frank Turek now nails not in the sense of winning the debate
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He didn't even try to respond almost anything that Frank Turek presented There's no question about that and I think just simply on a meaningful debate level
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Where you're actually going? All right. Here's where the positive argument was made did the negative side
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Respond what the positive side said is there a real interaction here? There wasn't all Hitchens does is whine in a very
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British accent about religion and He shows absolutely no concern
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Whatsoever for accuracy of understanding he brought up limbo in this debate and said that they had just gotten rid of limbo and They did no such thing
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It was not a dogma in the first place. It was a clarification blah blah. It's not even fair when dealing with groups that I disagree with and I've got to be consistent pointing that out and and he just lumps us all in with the
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Pope and things like that and and That's just the way the Christopher Hitchens is so he just He's just playing on the emotions he's just getting people all excited
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You know his followers all excited about hating God and joining him and rebelling against God as if somehow That was going to accomplish something.
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So that's That that's on that level There really wasn't much of a contest
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But it was interesting to hear Hitchens Properly identify
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The main problem with evidentialist apologetics and Frank Turek is Norm Geisler's chief student in fact
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I detected a number of Norman Geisler's jokes in Frank Turek's presentation and Frank did
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I think make the mistake and I do believe this is always a mistake It was a mistake that That Greg Stafford avoided making for example, and that is he admitted.
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This was his first formal debate. I Don't think that when you stand up in front of an audience you should tell them
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Hey, it's first time I've ever done this guy sort of like going into the doctor, you know You get a young doctor. It is not gonna inspire confidence when he says hey, you're my first patient say ah
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Yeah, you just don't want to go there So my suggestion to everybody is when you do your first debate if you ever do a formal debate
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Don't go up there and tell people this is your first debate Just focus on the subject and don't waste nearly as much time as Frank Turek did at the beginning with With preliminaries that have nothing to do with the subject of the debate, especially when you're debating someone like Christopher Hitchens so anyway
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Hitchens Nailed the weakness of evidentialist apologetics. He said did you notice that?
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Dr. Turek went from deist to theist To Christian without ever explaining how he managed to do that and he was right that's where the evidentialist apologetic falls apart is
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You know, it says well, I can't argue for the Christian God because from the evidentialist perspective the uniqueness of the
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Christian God is just an add -on to the Vague general idea of a
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God you see and so from their perspective you reason from a
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God to a more specific kind of God finally to the Christian God and the presuppositionalist says below me can't do it wrong
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God and I remember the first time that I heard My apologetics professor at Fuller Theological Seminary.
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Yes Fuller Theological Seminary. I had a Presbyterian Professor and I thought it was great that that he
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He said this because it helped me out a lot once I figured out what in the world he was saying but he was the one who said
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Thomas Aquinas proved the wrong God and There was a background to that but he was right and so it is interesting that in the haze of Hitchin ism
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He is still able to recognize that yeah, you know You didn't really quite establish
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How you managed to go from one point to the next point to the next point?
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In your in your argumentation there, and I'm not sure I can wave my arms any more than this Someone's not paying attention
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But I got their attention. So anyways, so that actually I wasn't gonna talk about that What I was gonna say was that was part of what
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I listened to on the ride yesterday What I listened to beforehand was a presentation
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I've monitored a Particular blog called
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LDS voices and I've looked for Information About Mormonism, you know
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Mormonism used to be really the primary thing that we were involved with, you know every six months we were in Salt Lake City and we're out in Mesa and You know our emphasis clearly has moved elsewhere and Mormonism has been changing in that time.
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I've said many times there. There's a tremendous contrast between the Mormon that you encounter today and the
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Mormon that you encountered when we first started doing this in the middle 1980s and Mormonism in many ways has lost its way but there are still of course those believing
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Mormons out there and so I was listening to a BYU, Idaho devotional from June of 2004
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By Noel B Reynolds professor of political science at Brigham Young University Noel B Reynolds and I found some of the things he said very interesting
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And you'll see why I I did let's let's listen first to this this little little clip right here
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But why do we assume that they were effective? The collapse of the church in the first century suggests that many of them were not
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When the second century opens we are confronted with clear evidence of a growing variety of competing versions of Christianity and The original structure of priesthood leadership has disappeared
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All that remain our city leaders still known as bishops But not called or supported by a central structure under the direction of prophets or apostles now
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What I found interesting throughout this entire talk was the anachronistic assumption on the part of the
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Mormon speaker of the original idea that the original church was was formed as the
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Mormon Church that you had a prophet and you had apostles and you had the priesthood
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This is just assumed never ever proven. No evidence
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Presented whatsoever and I've always felt that one of the weakest areas aside from its blatant polytheism and things like that one of the weakest areas in Mormon theology is this concept of priesthood because the
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New Testament's teaching on priesthood is so clear it's so compelling and The Mormon perspective is just simply not there.
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It's not what the New Testament teaches in any way shape or form and We have always found, you know, we have a priesthood tract that we passed out up in Salt Lake City Especially to all the young alleged priesthood holders during the priesthood meetings on Saturdays and we've always found that going that direction and talking with Mormons on the subject of the priesthood has been extremely effective because Let's face it.
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Most Christians don't talk to him about that subject. Most Christians have no idea what the New Testament doctrine the priesthood is and So they it's it's it's not an area where they have pat answers already memorized and things like that and So over and over again,
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I would hear Dr. Reynolds here Assuming something that simply isn't in evidence and that is that the early church was formed as the
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Modern LDS Church is formed and that therefore when you begin to see the early forms of the of the church in History and it's different from Mormonism.
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Well that that just must be a perversion and what struck me was Isn't that exactly what
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Muslims do? That's exactly what Muslims do I was
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I was gonna in fact, I forgot to do this But I was gonna queue up the the section from Shabir Ali in our debate in Biola in 2006
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Where I I said well, you know, can you tell us how can we tell what in the New Testament is still inspired?
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What is not in his responses? Well, if it agrees with the Quran it is if it doesn't it's not and So the the parallel there's so many interesting parallels between Mormonism and Islam They believe completely different things
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I've said in public places more than once That when you recognize that what you believe about God whether you're a monotheist or polytheist is the most fundamental defining factor of a religion the the chasm between monotheism and polytheism cannot be crossed and Given that that means that on that level
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Islam is closer to biblical Christianity than Mormonism is Because Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion
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I've ever encountered I'll never forget the long internet debate those actually wasn't in it as BBS debate.
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This is before the Internet with Eldon Watson, remember that rich Eldon Watson, that's there's a name we haven't heard in a while and We had this huge BBS exchange and for those of you who don't know what a
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BBS was that was a bulletin board system This was before the Internet became popular and people are going.
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Wow. He's an old man, isn't he? But anyway
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We had this lengthy conversation concerning the the reduction of the
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Islamic perspective And that is if there's an increasing number of gods in the
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Islamic worldview Sorry, sorry Mormon worldview, but I love Mormon worldview.
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Don't get you confused here I'll didn't Watson's not a Muslim. He's a Mormon, but they both start with him. So it gets confusing if there's an increasing number of gods in the
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Mormon worldview over time Then logically as you go back in time, you're going to come to the first God and what was the first God?
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Before he was a god he had to have been a man. Well who created the first man? well if he's the first God then you don't don't have a creator and so on and so forth and Eldon Watson's argument was there is an
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Unlimited number of deities you cannot go backwards in infinity and eventually come to Anything other than infinity there's an infinite number of gods that makes
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Mormonism the most polytheistic religion you could possibly conceive of Because there is an unlimited number of deities and he he defended that idea
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It's in fact, I think it's still in the Mormon section or at least part of my conversation with Watson on Matthew 16
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I know that's up there. The other one might be I don't know but anyhow, so the parallels between Joseph Smith and Muhammad are very interesting very very interesting and Here you have the same result when you have a religion that comes along that in essence says
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Christianity blew it Then you get some very interesting parallels between them and Both anachronistically take their scriptures and then make them the standard even though they come afterwards logically
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They should be able to be tested for consistency With the previous revelation, but no no
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Just as the the Muslim looks at the Bible through the lens of the Quran The Mormon looks the
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Bible through the lens of the Book of Mormon, dr. Cummins program price if they've ever read the program price and those revelations become prior more important and they become the basis upon which the
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Bible is to be in essence corrected and So I found that I found that fascinating the second thing that I heard
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That should not have surprised me listen to this section from dr.
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Reynolds and see if this doesn't sound Yeah, it's a little bit familiar Nephi saw further that the devil's church took away many parts of the gospel
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Including the covenants as verse 26 tells us and later took away many precious things out of the
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Bible verse 28 Now in the first century the Christian scriptures consisted principally of the
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Old Testament Available in a Greek translation called the Septuagint a few years ago
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I had a personal experience that confirmed Nephi's account in a very dramatic way. I was a guest of the director of the
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Vatican Library in Rome and He brought out their 4th century copy of the
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Bible for me to see known as Codex Vaticanus B The first page view let me just mention its
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Codex Vaticanus which in the Nessie Olin designation system is B It's not Vaticanus B.
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But hey, yeah, that's okay. I just think it stinks that a Mormon gets to see Had numerous erasures additions and changes written right on the page in different inks and in different hands
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I Pointed to some of these and asked him what's that?
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He answered oh, that's where they make corrections I could tell that Over the last two decades
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Now that's as far as he goes and talk about a very surface level discussion of Codex Vaticanus and the nature of textual emendation and la la la la la la, but hey, especially for Mormons, they have a long history of Going after the scriptures and that's what you're gonna hear that listen.
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No, this way says over the last two decades. This is 2004 So two decades since the 80s what's been going on since the 80s?
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Hmm. Listen many New Testament scholars have argued convincingly That the final text of the
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Gospels and the epistles that were eventually canonized as our New Testament Took shape during a long period in which they were modified as necessary necessary To support the emerging theological orthodoxy among the leaders of the
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Christian churches Their principal evidence comes from scriptural quotations in second century documents quotations, which are different than what we have today and Would not have supported the theological orthodoxy that emerges in the church in later centuries
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Now that's not actually and I remember he's a professor of political science So I guess we can sort of give him a pass on that, but that's not actually the argumentation
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But can you guess where he's getting that from? Yeah, I can guess too.
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That's from Bart Ehrman Bart Ehrman the cultists apostates and Muslims favorite scholar
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What an amazing thing to hear that we need to take our break we'll be right back with your phone calls right after this such a rare today
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So many stars strong and true Answering those who claim that only the
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King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt
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Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith in A readable and responsible style author
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James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611
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You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a
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Omin org the history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith
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Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the
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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme
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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute
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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith
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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically
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Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate and welcome back to the dividing line glad we survived
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I'll fix that later. There you go. I guess that chewing gum finally finally gave in on that one
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I Just love the high -end professionalism that we we
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Provide for there we set the standard that other people shoot for or shoot down at or something
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I was noticing a comment in channel
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From the fellow we we had hoped someday. He would write the wisdom of tired, but he never got around to it now
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He's married. So I'll never write anything again. So but he says corrections on a biblical manuscript self -destruct their inerrancy and yet they the
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Mormons can Can explain why interchanging white and pure and adding principle to the
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Book of Mormon and its introduction are minor inconsequential changes Very true the standard for the
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Book of Mormon and the standard for the Bible are not the same Thanks due to the eighth article of faith, of course, so that's just simply how how we should do that You're putting that away and you bring it as you know, you're not going to go there.
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Okay good. That's fine All right, let's go ahead and take our phone caller and then I've got something else that I want to address today
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Let's talk with Jeff. Hi Jeff. How you doing? Hi, dr. White great to talk to you again.
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Yes, sir Yeah, it's kind of I think last time I called in late 2007. I was Wondering if you're ever gonna debate.
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Dr. Ahriman. So my Times has definitely changed and I'm really glad you did the debate And I wanted to kind of comment on a couple things from dr.
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Ahriman's argumentation kind of get your comments on them One was and I think a lot of people discuss the and you've discussed a lot the absolute certainty sort of criterion
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Dr. Ahriman, it seems to me I kept thinking about his issues with cetera interview where he basically where he said that yeah, we pretty much know what they said and his inconsistencies, but one of the things
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I was You're applying it to other texts, but I was thinking like if he applied his standard just to everyday life, there's no way
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I don't have absolute proof that I'm not a brain in a vat or for younger folks
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You know, I'm plugged into the matrix or something like that So, I mean there you based on his standards,
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I don't think you could believe in anything Well almost anything except like, you know, it's a car like you exist
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Yeah, I I think you're right I I don't know that he'd go quite that far I didn't push it that far
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I do think Right. Yeah, no that far but I mean if it was
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I think there's something in his life Where and I I mean, obviously I don't want to psychoanalyze them
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But just based off of Romans one that there's something causing him like, okay
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If I have to if I have to accept the Bible or be consistent I will be consistent in a way that rejects the
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Bible You know where he will reject pacifist or whatnot, you know, well, he's a good he's a good
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He's more and more influenced by post -modernism. I do think that we're seeing a more rapid evolution in ermine's
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Embracing his role as the chief critic of the New Testament Since dr.
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Metzger has passed. I think there was a a personal relationship with their Metzger Never denied the faith, but he's gone now and I think you've seen a
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I don't know that that ermine would have put out Jesus interrupted
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While ermine was or while Metzger was still alive. And so I think that's part of it
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But there's also he himself admitted He has changed his views in regards to even the propriety of addressing the concept of the original text
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Since he wrote the orthodox corruption of Scripture so over the past decade and a half He's had a pretty major shift in his perspective at that point.
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And so I think you put all that together and as you know the the the only
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Certainty in a post -modern worldview is that there is no certainty and so I think he's just being consistent at that point
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He but he's not consistent in that if there really isn't any certainty at all His historical writings should be considerably more
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Nebulous than they are but he's not consistent at that point Now is he going to go back and re -edit everything to become more and more consistent post -modernist?
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I don't know but it will be interesting because I know that he has already done editing work on the next edition of the orthodox corruption of Scripture What kind of major changes he's going to be making because he would have to make major major changes
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To bring the book into line with the presuppositions that he expressed in our debate now,
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I was also thinking There was an argument that really struck me from or the
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Bachman's Jesus and the eyewitnesses Yes, where when he was talking about the oral history that one of the things
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Is critics or you know critics of an accurate oral history presuppose?
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Or they kind of miss that they kind of assume that the people who started off the oral history were kind of Abducted right into space.
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Yes, and then weren't around to check it and I was you know I was thinking it kind of I don't know how the thought pops into my head
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But that that's kind of what airmen is doing with the text do That the people who wrote the text as the chain of transmission started going out weren't around at all to consult right and So even if you could say like, okay, there's a word or two we're not quite sure of I think that would go with your tenacity argument where they
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Airmen kind of assuming that they weren't around at all to say Hey Paul, did you write this or not and not just for general like hated to write the letter?
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But even like if there was something in the letter, you know that Paul could have seen his own letter and said well
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I didn't write that Well, and here's and here's what he did not understand and and I'm sorry
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He can say until the cows come home that he used to believe exactly what I believe. I don't believe him
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He he if that was true Then he could have provided a significantly better critique of what
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I said because I don't think he understood what I was saying remember at this one point in the debate, I forget exactly where it was, but He presented his theory that Paul writes a letter and it gets copied and then the next copy is the one where all the copies come from and so you have
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Interview as well, right? And so what he's doing is he's presenting a theoretical history of transmission which he would not claim that he can prove but he's saying it's a possibility and the idea is that the original any copies other than this one line disappear and Any copies of the second and then he had come out for that disappear
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It's this third that all the surviving copies have come to us now all you know all he's doing is presenting, you know, it's possible that this could have happened and Given that we'd have to say well
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It's possible that the enterprise came back in time and and beamed up the the the original or beamed something
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I mean, you know this possibility thing even he says it's not an issue of debating possibilities.
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It's probabilities He made that statement in the debate when I was saying could you show us any text that you would say?
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That none of the original readings could be even possible None of the pot originaries could possibly have existed continue to exist in manuscript tradition and he dodged that one by saying
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Well, it's not a matter of possibility. It's a matter of probabilities and then he gave us one example Well, there's no textual variant at all
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Which I guess he would say is more probably the original than all the manuscript reading for that text
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We have which has no manuscript variations at all. I don't know where he was going there That's one of the problems with with debates is you can't necessarily push those issues to find out just how consistently it's been but here's the point all he's done is he's presented a
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Theoretical reconstruction of a single Pauline letter, but every time he does this he takes it out of the context of the
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Christian community He does this with the synoptic issues. He does this with textual transmission He does this in regards to the the eyewitnesses and here's the other part
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That's only one letter of many letters if you're going to make an argument for entire
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Corruption of the New Testament you have to do it for every letter and so you have to start multiplying that small possibility that that's how that worked by 27 different books and that becomes absolutely ridiculous
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That's why I was trying to present to him was the New Testament as it appears in those earliest manuscripts in those second century manuscripts
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Does not give us any reason to believe that the scenario that he has presented actually took place and since he's arguing for a
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Hypothetical that would be highly unusual that he would never argue for for any other book.
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That's not the New Testament I would think Then the burden of proof is upon the critic if the
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New Testament as it appears from multiple sources in the second century Is reflective of a consistent mechanism of transmission over time?
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Then it's the critic that has to prove his point not the person who accepts this as having been transmitted accurately
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But he just he is so focused upon Variation rather than similarity that it was almost like he couldn't even imagine that he couldn't even see the logic of that And I think that's one of the real benefits of the debate is here's somebody who's clearly not
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Balanced any longer and you know he may be you know some great living expert fine some people can get so into their topic that they get disconnected from reality and We've seen that happen in other instances, and I think that's exactly what has happened with these individuals
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Who are just dismissing the the possibility existence of the of the original text? No, yeah, so when you're writing your book.
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I would definitely modify Bachmann's argument and try to use that I had a quick question and last question in terms of like an orthodox understanding of Inspiration in terms of textual variants would we say that I mean assuming that we don't have all the streams of all the textual variants we have would say if you have like an accurate representation of the
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The original text to whatever degree you want to say that I've heard someone refer to it
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Kind of like you're watching an NFL game on TV. You may not be seeing like a complete hundred percent
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Replication of the original text, but you have an accurate representation of the original text well
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I think I think it's very good day since what we have is inspired or how would we well? Jeff I think it's very important to emphasize what
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I emphasized in the debate and that is What we have? well not only the tenacity of the text and I think that that is going to become a major area of where we need to draw the battle lines because Ermin Ermin didn't refute
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Kurt Ahlin's presentation of tenacity. He just mocked it And that's not that's not scholarship.
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I don't care where you went to school Where I went to school which people like to mock we were taught that that's not meaningful argumentation
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So if at Princeton that's considered to be meaningful argumentation. Well, we need to start redefining scholarship bit as it may
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The tenacity of the text and the fact that the originals continue to exist in the manuscript tradition is absolutely necessary to to emphasize at that point and And When you do have a major variant or something like that,
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I think that needs to be needs to be clearly indicated and and the options given but I Do not think and I'm about to read something here.
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It's your your questions leading directly into this I don't think I don't do not think that Bengal was giving us pablum as this particular writer.
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I'm gonna be quoting says When he told us that the variations between the manuscripts do not impact any article of evangelical doctrine
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Even Ermin has admitted that even Ermin in his debate with Dan Wallace very clearly admitted now
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He likes to play with the phrase it matters Variants matter he likes to misrepresent us as if we're saying variants don't matter.
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We don't say variants don't matter What we say is that the manuscript tradition is full enough
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To give us the ability to know what the original text was and to affirm that the original text is still there
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That's not saying they don't matter in any way shape or form. He likes to equivocate on on that particular term but I think that's that's
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Absolutely vital to emphasize and in fact what I'm gonna do here Jeff. Thank you for call I'm gonna I'm gonna continue on with this.
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So I hope I keep listening and thank you for thank your call Thanks for listening to the debate. Thank you. God bless. I was really
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Bothered and and I'm not gonna rush much here if we have to go a couple minutes over go a couple minutes over I'm just I just want to rush this
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I read this review and those of you who have the RSS feed the evangelical textual criticism blog may have read it as well this is a review by JK Elliot at University of Leeds in the
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UK of J Harold Greenlees the text of New Testament from manuscript to modern edition now,
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I Do not have this edition of Greenlee it's on its way. It's prior I've today But this is an update of the books
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I do have and that was his original work on textual criticism, which then became updated I think in the 80s or 90s to scribes scrolls and scripture and now has a new name with Hendrickson publishers and The there are things that are said
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By by Elliot in this that you know, I want to check them out make sure they're accurate
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I don't have any reason to question there. For example, he goes after Greenlee for a bad scripture index
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I understand how that happens, especially if you're updating an older book I can understand how how scripture index issues can arise to be perfectly honest with you but And some of the other statements he made that are made here
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I would take some issue with Greenlee on but I want you to listen to the voice of modern scholarship and This bothers me and I hope it
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I think it'll bother you as much and I actually hope it'll bother you as much because it Really has prompted me to do a lot of thinking about how to avoid the
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Irrationality of those who are just scared of scholarship Run run run run. We can't use our brains and who are afraid of tackling truth,
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I Don't want to do you know Dan Wallace has a good point. He talks about people who are more desirous of having certainty than of having the truth and I've met many people who are very certain of untruths, so I don't want to go there
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But the same time I don't want to be JK Elliot Listen to what he says,
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I'm just reading two paragraphs This is from his review. This is from SBL Society biblical literature.
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This is the RBL of January of 2009 So this is this is brand new Here's here's one of his here's two two paragraphs one of his ways to answer readers concerns is to offer palliative platitudes
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Among such pacifying remarks are quote the great majority of textual variants involve little or no difference in meaning end quote page 83 and Quote the vast majority the most theologically significant passages the
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New Testament have no significant textual variations and quote page 117 a Blatantly unsustainable assertion that tests the gullibility of the readership
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Also to be endured are his quoting Bengals pablum That quote the variations between the manuscripts did not shake any article of evangelical doctrine and quote page 76 and His repeating
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Sir Frederick Kenyon's words quote We have in our hands and substantial integrity the veritable Word of God and quote page 120
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Despite his not drawing attention to the unsettling get -out phrase quote insubstantial ie not complete integrity and quote
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The fact that majority of the text is secure may well be true But what disturbs conservative readers is not the total percentage of variants that are insignificant as regards matters theological
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But that minority of readings that are indeed theologically important more on these below second paragraph
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Another means listen to this another means used to placate the fundamentalists is to appeal to divine protection of the text
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Surprisingly in a book by a respected academic is his appeal on more than one occasion to the
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Holy Spirit Although why the index has a reference to the
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Holy Spirit on 46 to 47 alludes this reviewer on Page 37 we do find quote we believe that the
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Holy Spirit guided the authors of the New Testament books So that their message would be protected from error and quote and quote we likewise believe that the
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Holy Spirit Operated providentially in the copying and preservation of the manuscripts through the centuries end quote
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Oh Exclamation point that is not the sort of presupposition
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One would find in works of textual criticism of the Greek or Latin classics or of other ancient literature
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Nor is it warranted here in any case such a view is a hostage -to -fortune
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The vast quantity of textual variance is hardly suggestive of providential preservation
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It were better had Greenlee avoided such peculiar obitur dicta Even Greenlee himself tells us in a prelude to a description of scribal habits that quote we should not think that it was only by Supernatural preservation that the
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New Testament was kept from being lost or hopelessly confused during those centuries and quote for page 37
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Perversely Greenlee allows page 103 that Mark's original ending has been lost
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Mainly though Greenlee is concerned to show how the frail human agency of scribal copying Resulted in accidental and deliberate change and even he points to such two places such as first Thessalonians 2 7 and 1st
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Corinthians 13 3 where he is not certain which reading came from the quote inspired end quote
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Biblical author and of paragraph now
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Listening to this was like chewing on aluminum foil for me.
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I Was Here is someone who is indeed speaking the presuppositions of the modern
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Academy represented by Bart Ehrman and It is not an argument to mock a position it would be better to provide a meaningful interaction
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But we do need to understand that this is the language of the modern
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Academy Now I've never figured out why people who don't believe in the inspiration of the
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Bible would spend their time studying the Bible But there are a lot of people who do Just a couple of things
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He identifies as Pacifying remarks the statement the great majority of textual variants involve little or no difference in meaning.
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I Don't know how many times I've heard Bart Ehrman say that that is not even a disputable assertion
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Given that the largest textual variant in the New Testament I don't mean largest as a number of verses But the most number of times this text will bring comes up has to do with the movable new
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The movable new does not impact meaning So that's a fact.
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How is that a pacifying thing or are we just not supposed to mention that? Does JK Eliot so live in the realm of variation?
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That he can't admit these facts Then the next quote the vast majority of the most theologically significant passages in New Testament have no significant textual variations
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Okay, I've got to agree with Eliot on that one. I Wouldn't say it that way He says a blatantly unsustainable assertion that tests the gullibility of the readership
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Well, I think that's I think Eliot is following Ehrman in his book review methodology here to be perfectly honest with you
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But I wouldn't say that I think that there any theologically significant passage is going to have
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Either minor or major textual variation in it. Most of it's going to be minor. Most of it's going to not be relevant but Is is
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I haven't like I said, I've ordered the book to make sure that I can put this in context There's no period put at the end of this. I'm not sure if he's missing something when it says have no significant textual variations
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But the things that the bug me he identifies Bengals statement as pablum
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That's if if a conservative was writing about someone else a liberal they would be dismissed for this kind of clearly biased presentation
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It's It's amazing. But then here's what really hit me and this is what
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I want to spend Just a few moments on I realized that They were going over time, but we'll try to keep it brief
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Another means used to placate the Fundamentalists, I mean that's just bias.
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That's just that's bigotry. That's that's prejudice To placate the fundamentalist is to appear and let's let's face it folks if you want to placate the fundamentalists
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You'd be using the King James Version of the Bible and you wouldn't be writing the stuff that Greenlee's writing in the first place Trust me,
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I know Another means used to placate the fundamentalist is to appeal to divine protection of the text
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See, it's it's it's as if that's can't even be a possibility. That's not even allowed on the table now
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But how do you keep it off the table? You just mock the people who might believe it. You don't argue against it
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You don't demonstrate any type of consistent worldview That would give you a reason for doing that you just simply dismiss it that's how liberalism works folks
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That's how it works in politics. That's how it works in religion. That's how it works in our seminaries And this is what's coming into the seminaries.
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This is the attitude that is producing the kind of literature that's out there today Listen this surprisingly in a book by a
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Respected academic is his appeal on more than one occasion to the
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Holy Spirit This is simple secularism
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This is simple unbelief. Are you going to argue?
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Dr. Elliot? That the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the transmission of the text of the
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New Testament Oh, but we can't make reference to that. What do you mean? We can't make reference to that that sounds just like Bart Ehrman say well a historian can't say anything about God because Well, God has nothing to do with history, huh?
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but Christians believe that God has everything to do with history and Christians believe that the scriptures are they are new stars and that new stars
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Breathe is related to new ma, which is spirit So what we have here is you can not be a believing
01:00:55
Christian and engage in this practice I think what we need to realize is you've got a bunch of unbelievers
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Who have in essence hijacked The quote -unquote leading edge of this discipline and we need to start identifying that What that also means is those who are believers who by the work of the
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Spirit in their heart Have had the rebellion against God's Word removed and I believe a part of regeneration a part of the change of the heart
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Is to cause a person to bow the knee before God's speech before God's Word the men of old who've changed this world have been people who gave clear evidence of obedience to the
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Word of God and Those in whose lives the
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Spirit has moved in that way. I Challenge you I plead with you if you're a young man, and you feel called the ministry you feel called to study
01:01:59
I challenge the young men of our generation Go into this field Learn what these people have to say.
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Yes, but don't imitate their unbelief take the truth that they say yes, but combine it with faith and begin providing the kind of believing
01:02:25
Scholarship that goes beyond the circularity. I submit to you Secular humanism is no foundation for dealing with God's universe
01:02:35
It will always result in the stunted viewpoints that we see in a Bart Ehrman That can give us no reason for life.
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No reason to to get up in the morning and do what is right. I call upon those those young people as You go into this field.
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Don't just dodge this don't dodge this area dive into it In trust and faith that God's Word is true and let's begin producing a kind of believing biblical studies
01:03:10
We have so much given the field over to the unbelievers and saying go well
01:03:17
Look at all we write we run SPL and we do this and we do that There is such danger when the
01:03:27
Christian Academy When the Christian Academy is So in love
01:03:35
With the acceptance of the world that we are no longer willing to stand up and say
01:03:42
I Operate under the Lordship of Christ you operate under the
01:03:47
Lordship of your own mind. You are a rebel against Christ and That simply isn't allowed in the
01:03:55
Academy any longer. I hope there's some listening right now.
01:04:02
I Know young reformed men. They have a lot of zeal. They have a lot of desire
01:04:09
They desire to learn they desire to study I Call you give consideration you want to be a scholar you want to teach?
01:04:19
I'm not saying it's gonna be easy You're gonna have to to go against the flow anybody who believes in the Lordship of Christ Anybody who believes
01:04:26
God's their creator today has to go against the flow but we need good
01:04:33
Sound Scholarship being produced out there. I'm not saying lower the level of scholarship
01:04:39
I'm saying go to a higher level of scholarship because I say to you to do scholarship under the
01:04:45
Lordship of Christ is the highest calling To do scholarship in the Lordship of secular humanism is not a high calling we
01:04:56
Need to delve into this area and give an answer for the hope that's within us Well, I have wanted to say that for quite a while As you can tell it bugged me and it still bugs me and and I'm going to include it and whatever work
01:05:13
However work this ends up coming out and dealing with the urban material and his new book coming out in March And I don't know how
01:05:19
I'm gonna put all together yet because there's it's so wide I don't know if it's to be a 500 page volume or multiple volumes.
01:05:25
I don't know That's a lot of work pray for us continue to support us. Thanks for listening to buying line We'll see you next time.
01:05:31
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