Arminian Proof Texts and Steve “Jerusalem Jones” Ray

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Just got it all done there. Well, I didn't get all done I don't even have my little tablet PC online yet to look at calls. But we'll get that done and you won't even Recognize that I'm doing it except when I start talking like this as I'm trying to enter a password or something that happened to me once I remember I was using a computer to preach from and somebody shut it down right as I got up to the pulpit and Ever tried to speak while entering your passwords for various programs and things like that and actually try to make it look natural.

It's it's not a whole lot of fun anyway. Welcome to the dividing line on a. That's Tuesday morning. Yes. I'm just looking at my screen wondering why Bible works left half of its frame on top of my Adobe Edition Screen, why does that happen?

I don't I don't understand that. It's I know I hear all the Mac heights guys because it's a PC. That's why and Maybe that is the case. I don't know those those Macs are looking better and better after Experiencing Vista but anyway, don't you blast me in here?

Well, let me tell you something. After experiencing Vista, you know, I sat down at the fire conference I was trying to get some wireless to do something and the thing comes up and says I can't boot I Can't start what you want me to do.

Can I fix myself now commercial for the Air free for a week. I've been air free for a week.

Yes. Save xp .com. Yeah.

Yeah service, let's go for service pack for all right, whoo. Let's let's start a service pack for movement. That's what we should do. Mm-hmm. Let me tell you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I've already done service pack one.

I remember when service pack one for Vista came out. They're all like Vista's now as fast as XP was and they're all excited. It networks as fast as XP now. It's like oh, man. Who was the project coordinator on that one?

Anyway, well, that's lots of fun, but Yeah, now everybody on all the geeks and round going just use Linux. Yeah I'm like, yeah, right. Okay. Sure Ava says anything about Linux. I just mark mark a little thing next their name going geek.

Just just watch this one. Might be axe murderer in other life. Who knows? Yeah, that's that's how it works. Yeah, this is now as fast as 3 .11. I remember Windows. I remember that What's worse? I remember DOS 3 .1.

Yeah. Yeah, I have DOS 2 yeah DOS 2 DOS 3 writing batch files and and when you tried to get me on Windows I remember saying to you who would ever need to use more than one program at a time. Anyways, yes, I Remember the first Windows Windows 1 .0, which could do nothing other than You could put Windows up But you'd have a clock in one and something down here and that was really about all it could do.

And it was on a monochrome screen. Wow, that was beautiful. That was great stuff. Oh, did I just date myself? I think I yeah, mm-hmm big time. Well, welcome to dividing line what I was doing and the reason I was rushing about so quickly there at the end is I was trying to get a recording of this Steve Ray stuff and Unfortunately, there was no At least not that I found a link that would just allow me to grab it.

I didn't look at his blog. Maybe it was on the blog but a friend out in cyber land sent me the link directly to the program and so Since there wasn't any way for me to just download it. I had to be live recording it so fired up Total Recorder and started live recording as best as I could and I got about 23 minutes worth of stuff in As as we could but once again, you may recall a few weeks ago we were Looking at some of the stuff that Steve Ray was saying and Steve Ray likes to go around and In case you're wondering who Steve Ray is we like to say he pretends he's Indiana Jones.

And in fact That's what the Catholics say to in fact Let me let me play for you the introduction from the host the program and to listen to what they refer to him as Ray.

Convert author speaker. Our own Jerusalem Jones is going to be joining us for the second installation of his series versus I never saw Jerusalem Jones.

Jerusalem Jones. So that's not just he's you know, people say well, you know, he just wears the hat man. It's no big deal. It's you know, you shouldn't pick on that. Hey that that's that's his stuff, man we're just we're just going with what with what he himself says, okay, and He's the one who has tried to create this persona and So on and so forth.

So, you know, don't don't you know that that that's it?

That's his thing as a Protestant and Steve wants to share with you his journey into the Catholic faith. He studied his way into the church and of course now he is considered when the top Catholic apologist and.

Catch that all these guys are getting promotions, man I mean, I don't know what they did but from from Amir convert to now one, let's see. What was it two weeks ago Tim Staples one of the four most biblical scholars in the church?

And I'm just like wow, when did that happen? Wow. Okay, and so now we've got Steve Ray and he is you know and and I sit back and I and I think about the things that this man says and The way he presents the other side and I go this is the is one of the best they've got Wow.

Amazing things have really gone downhill since the 1980s. You know, I'm sorry but you look at the the challenge that a Jerry Matitix used to present and at least here's somebody with some Some scholarship some knowledge, you know I mean, it's twisted all over the place and you know, it's very difficult to you know Put all that stuff out in the debate, but you know, we've certainly have done our best to do that.

But Steve Ray won't even debate. I mean this is you know Jerusalem drone Jones saying that Jerome was the only one who ever believed these things and then all you gotta do is just quote here quote here quote here quote here and What does he do?

He runs off and he hides behind Gary Machuda and he challenged him on this and he runs behind William Albrecht or somebody like that, you know, and you go this is this is top-notch stuff. Wow. Things are not well in Rome when this is one of your top-notch people.

There's there's no No two ways about it. Just absolutely amazing. But hey, they're the ones making the claim. I Mean if if if this man's gonna sit there and he's gonna allow this kind of verbiage to be used of himself.

Then I think it's perfectly fair to hold him to the standard that his own PR department is providing for himself and I'm sorry, but The the stuff that I hear from Steve Ray is so often so horribly bad and so shallow and so on so forth that it's It's it's difficult to say now.

As I said, I was I was trying to record this stuff and what that meant is I'm running into the into the Studio five minutes for the program starts with the file on a jump drive and So what that means that didn't get to go in and do what I like to be able to do and that is pick out The specific clips mark them off in the editing program.

So everything's nice and clean and and things like that. It didn't it didn't work that way. So when we get around to this section, which interestingly enough is on the Eucharist I'm gonna have to skip around some and play a little bit and it doesn't sound overly professional but you know, that's the way we do things here and That's why you listen and why you're not listening to a really dry boring lecture right now because you never know What's actually gonna happen? at that type of thing, but it looks like unless my computer is confused that we already have a caller and So I since it's on a completely different subject I'm gonna take that call first and then we'll go back to To Steve Ray, so let's talk with David.

Hi David. Hello, sir. How are you doing? Good good.

You know, I have to say I've lost a lot of respect for you though with your dissonant Linux like that.

Okay. Mark this down rich David, North Carolina geek and possible axe murderer. Okay. All very true. You record this one for use by the FBI. We broadcast our sermons and stuff on Linux, but oh, so you're your church to geeks.

Yeah. What is what is the mess. What is the gospel for geeks. That's what I would like to hear. Exactly.

How do you it's mixing it with the gospel for axe murderers? It really gives the pastors difficulty, but they do the best. Understand. Yes. So I am suffering the common affliction of newbies. I am a very new listener to the show.

Oh, you were and I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's oh, it's actually it's probably better for you. So the people have been listening for many years are really really odd. Well, it's all it's all up from here, right?

Yeah. Well, I don't know. We'll find out. Well, um, so you were.

Talking about commenting on somebody who was quoting Matthew 2337 Uh-huh on a podcast the other day and he had misquoted it. He left out the bit about the the children. Yeah, and you you called him on that but I didn't quite follow the the argument of how that changed.

Well, you know.

Well that that likewise proves that you have have not listened to the Bible answer and broadcast with George Bryson and you haven't read the Potter's Freedom and. So we now know that while you do use Linux you are not up on your current reading.

So we're gonna have to work on that one. No, no, you cannot. I'm not sure how I could keep you from doing that even if I wanted to but Bob from Florida. Yes. Okay, I understand. No, actually, there is a chapter in the Potter's Freedom called the big three and deals with Matthew 2337.

First Peter 3 and 2 Peter 3 9 and first Timothy 2 4 and that's because they are just the most common verses and the reason I went over very quickly is because over the years we have well, what even prompted the writing of the Potter's Freedom was Dave Hunt's book what well, I'm sorry was Norman Geisler's book and Dave Hunt at that same period of time.

He had misquoted Matthew 2337 in his written Newsletter and we had talked about that when I interviewed him and we had our radio discussion. It was not a debate. I was the host of program and then we started as we would be listening to people who were attacking Calvinism over and over again.

We kept documenting people misquoting this same text it is Amazing. We even caught poor RC Sproul misquoting at once and obviously he wasn't doing it for a traditional reason, but So many times we have caught people who oppose reformed theology dumping that phrase and the reasons very very clear.

For those who are new and we have to recognize there are you know a few of you but it's you know. Don't worry outgrow it. It's it's not anything to be ashamed of Bob but it had the text says Jerusalem Jerusalem, he'll kill who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her how often I wanted to gather your children together.

The way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling by taking that out. The application they make is how often I wanted to gather you and then he just assumed this means often I wanted to save you but I couldn't because you were unwilling.

But that's not what Matthew 2337 is about if you look at it in context all of Matthew 23 is by far the most strong strident denunciation of The Scribes and Pharisees. In all of the Gospels it is a lengthy diatribe pronouncing judgment upon these religious hypocrites.

And this is the conclusion and the address is made to all of Jerusalem. You go back and see how many times Jerusalem was addressed as the head of the of the Jewish people in the prophets and so on so forth and that's exactly what.

Say who kills the prophets and stones those were sent or so it's not just that generation but it has been this stiff-necked people all along and What is Jesus's point here is he even talking about God's?

Permissive will or salvific will or anything. No he's talking about the fact that these people even though the very incarnate Son of God Is walking in their midst are still just as unwilling to hear God's messengers as they have ever been and They are intent upon Standing in the way of God's purposes if you read the whole thing.

And go back especially up to I like to go up to verse 13 and show that the parallel between this and the conclusion that Jesus offers he says but woe to you Scribes and Pharisees. Because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people for you do not enter in yourselves.

Nor do you allow those who are entering to go in? So one of the woes that is pronounced upon them was the fact that that they are the exact opposite of what they claim to be they claim to be the very guardians of the kingdom of God the very Epitome of what it means to be a person who's right with God, but not only do they themselves not enter in the kingdom.

But they even actively seek to keep other people from from Entering into the kingdom of heaven and so in that context then I go back to verse 37 say what is what is being said here? What is being said is a is a Announcement of judgment.

Look at what verse 38 says behold your house is being left to you. Desolate. And what's the next chapter in Matthew 24? Obviously the Olivet discourse destruction of Jerusalem, etc. Etc. Etc. That's how this is functioning is saying All right, you are absolutely opposed to the purposes of God just like the unforgivable sin.

You can see the very activity of the Holy Spirit of God and go up. That's devil. This is the kind of perversity that calls white black light darkness Etc. Etc. That you see in Isaiah now is the fulfillment of all these prophetic oracles that have come against Jerusalem.

Then you have the transition to Matthew 24 and the coming destruction of the city of Jerusalem that the disciples go. What look how beautiful the temple is how could that ever happen and so on and so forth?

So it's a it's just a gross misuse of the text to go. What's actually being said here is that we're talking about? God trying to save people when we're actually talking about Jesus condemning the scribes and Pharisees and fulfilling all the prophetic oracles against the people of Israel and by leaving out that one phrase they are Changing who it is.

Who is the object of the gathering and of course? They're they're reading something into the very idea of gathering to begin with that isn't part of the context. But even leaving that aside. They're changing who the object gathering is into the ones who are unwilling and then creating out of this a proof text that well God can Try but the ultimate determiner is you whether you want to do so or not.

Instead the real way to the text is the amazing willingness of religious people. And this is the same thing in the unpardonable sin of religious people in this in the name of God to literally stand in God's way and stand against God's purposes.

Just simply to protect what we might call their turf their priorities their prerogatives whatever it might be and the strongest words of condemnation in all the scriptures are Directed at them. I think Matthew 23 and Galatians 5 are probably the two roughest texts in all the Bible that I know of as far as language is concerned and What are they addressed it?

They're addressed at religious hypocrites in Galatians 5 it's the people who are trying to you have been severed from Christ. You have fallen from grace who you who are seeking to be justified by law by what you do.

It's exactly what these people are doing. They're hypocrites and so doing and they are condemned for so doing so. There's a much fuller discussion of it that goes You know through the context of Matthew 23 and stuff in the potter's freedom, but that's what we were talking about was how many people?

Determine what Matthew 23 37 is about and therefore the actual phrase Gather your children together see these are the rulers their children would be the people of Israel the very ones that Jesus Was the one who was always ministering to what was the thing that always made the the scribes and Pharisees mad at Jesus?

What was one of the first things that caused them to reject him and to reject his claims is he's hanging out With the wrong people he's hanging out with with the with the harlots and the sinners and stuff like that well.

That's the very same distinction that he introduces here and yet by ignoring it. They turn into a proof text for something that is is not even close to the context and so it is Amazing to hear how many times I know I know they're probably just you know going off memory.

But that's the whole point sometimes when you quote something from memory. It's one of the clearest ways of revealing, what's your traditional understanding of it is and Sometimes that's not actually what the text is is talking about.

All righty. Yeah, I guess I got it. You guess you got it. You don't sound like you fully get it, but I think I think I followed.

That argument um and now it seems like an Armenian could come back and say well what we're talking about here is the you know Sovereignty of God and the free will of man, so okay, maybe I'll give it to you that he's not Directly saying how often I would want to gather you Together as a hen gathers her brood, and you would not.

Maybe it is talking about them.

We'll think about ask ask this question. What the phrase you were unwilling what were they unwilling to have done is? It to repent to believe to be saved. No it was they were Unwilling that the people they had religious authority over were to enter into the kingdom of God.

They were standing against that and that's exactly what's said in verse 13.

So the so the main error then is when it's talking about gathering your children together. An Armenian would say that is the calling of salvation from God Which you can resist if you want and the the reformed perspective would be no that is simply being The common ministry of the gospel which can be rejected and in fact can be.

Hindered by People in authority who have the power to kind of which is which is happening all over the world today in the name of Islam. Right. You know you'd write a book on that. Oh, you know. But who would buy it.

Obviously not people who use Linux.

You should send those people a free autographed.

That's another thing I've heard about Linux users. Well anyways. Oh Well I guess it's becoming Armenian texts Armenian proof text day instead of Steve Ray on the Eucharist day. We'll take one more than I'm gonna do.

Steve Ray didn't do all that work to get Steve Ray lined up. We'll have to keep this one short, but let's talk with the Dale In Indiana. Hi Dale.

Doing all right. Yeah, it is a Armenian proof text. A. I suppose. Hey I used to Wait on a particular forum a lot it was Everyone's Baptist, but most there was several one Armenian in particular used to always throw out 2nd Peter 2 and 1 And you know versus even denying the master who bought them.

And I think I caught the end of a program the other day where somebody else asked that same question. And I apologize if I'm asking the same question was just asked a month ago. But I went back and tried to find that in the archive and never found it.

What what do you think that's referring to there. Well.

I even have a little pop-up that I play and channel whenever anybody comes in and asks about this. There is a Entire article at a omen org. In the Reformed Theology section it's under the what we call vintage ailment.

Which is a nice way of saying all the stuff we haven't bothered to get switched over the nice. Yeah. There's a there's a very lengthy article there on 2nd Peter 2 1. That goes all through all sorts of in-depth arguments.

It may be a little bit more than you're actually looking for but I will at least give you the quick outline of what I.

Pop up for folks when they come into our chat channel. Sure I can go find that. Read the whole thing. Well.

That's okay, but since you've since you've now mentioned it There's gonna be folks who for some reason might not find it or whatever so let me just just briefly point out That first of all the first point I make is we should derive Soteriological truths from Soteriological passages, and this isn't that is the specific subject here again has to do with God's judgment upon false teachers, and it's always best if you're going to Provide a proof text to pull it from those texts that are actually about the subject you're talking about.

This is an inference Based upon one particular interpretation and that particular interpretation has some major problems with it. And what are some of the major problems well? Let me read the text, but false prophets also arose from among the people just there also be false teachers among you who will secretly introduced destructive heresies.

Even denying the master who bought them bring swift destruction upon themselves. The phrase denying the master who bought them is interpreted by many To be a reference to Jesus the purchase is his death and therefore Jesus died.

For people who are false prophets, and who will go to hell. It also probably would of necessity Militate against the Concept of the perseverance of the Saints or the security of the Saints as well. Because many of these false teachers are clearly in the church at one point made professions of faith so on and so forth.

So the real question is everything okay there. Yeah, sounds like someone sounds like a a dump truck. Just came up to you and buried you in sand.

There was a. I just put my daughter down for a nap so I came outside for the oh.

Well, I'm glad that you're not buried in sand. That would be very. That would be somewhat Distracting to the rest of what I have to say. Okay, so the the phrase even denying the master. That's in the new American Standard.

I believe other translations say Lord who bought them Is master at the ESV. Yeah, it's the Greek term despot a's and that's a sovereign title. It's not courteous, which is the normal soteriological title used of of the Lord.

That's the second thing to keep in mind and that also raises the question who is in reference here. Is this the father. Is this the son? Despot a's is a term that would be very easily used of either one.

Thirdly. That was third point is that question is it the father of the son. Can it be proven. You'd have to. You'd have to actually prove that this is the Sun in in Light in light here to be able to make that particular interpretation hold.

Number four the term bought is a garage zone. And you'll notice it says who bought them not bought them with a price no purchase price is mentioned. Which would be the only time that that happens in the New Testament if this is a soteriological reference in other words in every other place in the New Testament when the term agar adzo is used of redemption of the of the giving of the sacrificial price of the of the blood of Christ that in that context says purchased with Precious blood the life the purchase price is mentioned.

This would be the one place in all the New Testament where that wouldn't be the case. And thirdly. Fifthly I'm sorry the passage says the master did not potentially purchase these men, but that he did in fact purchase These men and so that would fully impact what you what you believe about what?

Redemption actually means and you would have to come up with an idea that the person who has been redeemed can yet likewise Be condemned for the sins from which they had been redeemed from. So that would point back to a sovereign Action here not a redemptive action here and the father doing so if you look at Deuteronomy 32 5 through 6 for a parallel use in the Old Testament you can find that there.

And finally The idea of deriving the extent of the atonement it's best to do so from Hebrews that discusses that specific issue. Not from 2nd Peter's reference to false teachers and a rather dubious interpretation that requires this.

How many different steps are at least three different steps that have to Be taken each one of which can be questioned for you to come to the final conclusion. That in essence what's said in Hebrews chapter 10 isn't true and that is by one sacrifice He is perfected forever those that are being sanctified.

So one is you know Hebrews is addressing that specific issue Peter isn't when you're taking one text Reading it in only one way not even really dealing with the other possible ways of reading it and then using that to overthrow Clear teaching that's a good indication that you've missed about someplace along the road.

Yeah, cuz I.

The way the guy was I didn't know how to answer him and yet it would completely contradict much more clear.

Elsewhere, so well that's part and parcel of doing exegesis. Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, well, I won't keep you any longer, but thanks for I appreciate and I'm glad I'm glad you missed that truckload of sand.

All right, yes, thanks a lot. God bless. Bye. Bye. All righty. Well, believe it or not Our calls have taken us all the way to the point of our break and so what we'll do is I'll just say right now we're not gonna take any more phone calls because I've got at least a Half an hour's worth of stuff with Steve Ray to look at and probably won't even get through all that.

So after the break dive into Steve Ray trying to tell us About life as a Baptist and what we don't see in the Bible including things like transubstantiation. We'll be right back.

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Jerusalem Jones one of the foremost Catholic apologists, you know, we only we only deal with the best folks here on the dividing line Jerusalem Jones and Tim Staples one of the foremost Catholic apology.

Okay. That's kind of biblical scholars. Sorry biblical scholars not just an apologist but a biblical scholar and I'm just going with our own PR man. I'm you know, I'm just trying to help Catholic answers out we're getting the word out that Tim Staples is one of the foremost biblical scholars in the church today and That's a that's a great thing to know and but I personally think that sort of ups the the requirements of Accuracy on the part of these folks and so now that Steve Ray is one of the leading Catholic apologists in in That's around today.

Then I will expect that he will stop making silly comments about Jerome and And things like that, but let's um, this is where I'm gonna have to you know I should have during that break unplugged and found my next clip.

But I was too busy taking a drink of Lipton green tea with citrus to try to get that cough it's dry around here and I've noticed that as I've been trying to get more miles and I'm trying to get to 2 ,500 miles by June 13th.

It's been a bad year for writing 3 ,000 miles last year 4 ,600 the year before that. But I'm barely gonna get to 2 ,500 this year, but I've been doing some long longer rides. And boy you get done with all those things and you've you've sucked in a you know 30 mile long tube of really really really dry air and my lungs are going.

Hey. Where's where's where the humidity go man? All right, let's see what we can find here. We're gonna have to jump around a bit. So, you know stick with me here.

Mr. Protestant, that is Steve Ray is gonna be joining us in just a few minutes. I want to ask for your prayers as we head into this week.

There we go, here's where Steve tells us about what kind of talk he's going to be giving and. This is I. Love to see this. I wonder what would happen if I showed up one of his meetings. I don't hide. Well I'd love to show up one of these where he's pretending to be a Baptist minister and put my hand and say I'll tell you.

What. Steve how about you? Let me be the Baptist minister since I actually is one and you never was one and. And we'll see how different my presentation is from yours. Wouldn't that be fun? Alright, so here's the where he's describing.

What how he would how he's going to give you giving this presentation up in up in Michigan.

Well, I'm gonna start out the talk like I'm a Baptist preacher back in my former life when I was an evangelical. It's about the Eucharist, which I did and we refer to it as the cookie Christ.

Now immediately that tells me a lot about Steve Ray's background. Steve Steve Ray has made it abundantly clear That his form of Protestantism was not exactly The deepest and the result of of a lot of meaningful study.

Now, of course, he'll try to make that claim when it's useful to do so, but That very I mean you've listened to me. How many debates have I done. The mass. Lots of them and have you ever heard any type of that kind of terminology.

Me? No, you haven't don't don't need to. I Understand what it's saying and I understand that Genre of rhetoric and so on so forth. But I think the only reason he says that is, you know, the shock value.

Try to make those Baptists look even more backwards than.

Steve Ray is or it was idolatrous and of course we read in the Bible it now.

By the way, you can say that the Eucharist is idolatrous Without using that kind of language about a cookie Christ, right? I mean if in point of fact the Bible makes it very plain That the death of Christ was a once-for-all event and that's the long extended analogy He's going to give later in the program trying to turn it into an eternal event that pops into the bubble of time.

That's what he actually says Despite all that That to bow down Before bread and wine and identify it as your God Body soul blood divinity is To give worship to that which the Bible nowhere which inspired scripture, which the Holy Spirit of God nowhere has given any indication of or approval of would be idolatry and if the dogma as defined at the fourth Lateran Council in 1215 is not true Then the Roman Catholic would have to admit that what they are doing is in fact Idolatrous, which is why they have to invest ultimate authority in the church and ultimate authority infallibility of the church.

And then the councils of the church so on and so forth and why they cannot hold the soul of scriptura. Very obvious, but again, we do have new folks who maybe haven't listened to all the debates we've been doing since 1990 on issues like this and hence Good to go back over some of these Foundational issues.

So why do you Catholics keep crucifying and offering him as a sacrifice over and over again on your altars every week?

So and it's important for people to understand and again dealing with Roman Catholicism is is like dealing with Anymore is like dealing with with jello trying to nail it to the wall. You get so many different interpretations and so many different understandings and it's interesting the apologists do tend to give you the the older more conservative styles, but if you end up going to your local Catholic Church, and it's not a Conservative parish, but it's more middle-of-the-road to liberal parish.

You're going to get all sorts of of other Interpretations than their standings that are gonna be presented to you at that particular point in time. And issues like purgatory and the actual meaning of the mass and things like that.

Yeah, you know up before Vatican two is pretty easy to determine exactly what the Roman Catholic Church meant historically on that issue. That really isn't the case any longer and you may have spoken to Roman Catholics who have just all sorts of wide varieties including Priests and so on and so forth.

That's the nature of Roman Catholicism that we deal with today. I'm gonna come at it from.