An Argument for Presuppositional Apologetics

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I'm mr. Smalley. Do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy. I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you

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We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions that you have about God in the

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Bible and if you doubt that just go to apologetics live .com Join the discussion by clicking the stream yard icon.

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That's the little duck icon Join in ask me your most difficult question. Just remember one thing

01:04

I don't know is a perfectly good answer. I'm your host Andrew Rappaport Executive director of striving fraternity and the

01:12

Christian podcast community. We are here tonight to discuss the approach of apologetics called presuppositional apologetics

01:23

I'm just gonna give the you know, we did this last week. We talked about classical. We're not really doing it in the best order

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We're doing it in the order in which speakers were available But I'm just gonna say if I had an order this would have been the last so you got all the wrong ways to do

01:39

It you end on the right way Oops. Oops. Sorry Dan. Did I did I just accidentally give away my view?

01:45

Yep, so I think I did So let me welcome in our our guest speaker tonight.

01:51

One of the speakers at striving for eternity. Mr. Dan craft How are you, sir? Yes, so yeah

02:01

This is a view that both you and I hold to is presuppositional apologetics if I if I could have an order

02:08

I probably would have done it as evidential classical the cumulative and then presuppositional but The gentleman who's gonna do cumulative can only only had one week and that's the last one available and so and and Last week

02:27

Matt only had that week. So We fit in the other two now, I will say you're gonna be followed up next week

02:37

By a guy who hunted for ghosts for a living I'm just saying

02:44

And we're gonna talk about evidences. It'll be a fun show for sure So Dan for folks who who may not know you

02:53

I mean I introduced you as one of our speakers That's not all that you do though. Let folks know a little bit about yourself and You know, maybe some novel things people would be thrilled to know about you.

03:06

Well, uh, Let's see. Where do I start? I was born at a very early age. I knew he was going there.

03:12

Yeah You know, I'm a dad so you got to start with the dad the dad like jokes first Uh, God called me to See, let's start with the really important stuff

03:23

So I came to faith in Christ at about 10 or 11 years old. My parents led me to the Lord I had basically my my even my earliest memories were of growing up in a church

03:36

My mom was I think nominally Lutheran. My dad was an unbeliever when they first got married

03:43

When we when I was about 10 or 11 years old We moved from Illinois to South Florida and wound up attending

03:50

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church with the late. Dr Dame D James Kennedy and As my mom tells the story as my parents were in the new in the new members class

04:01

My dad's like wait a minute. I am we're getting ready to be a member of this church, and I'm not even a Christian So I should fix that So he came to faith in Christ so we think and There's a long story there and so not long after that, you know, all three of us piled on to the onto the lazy boy and You know next thing, you know,

04:24

I'm I'm getting my get out of jail free card Get out of hell free card because you know when your parents ask you you don't want to go to hell.

04:32

Do you? It's like hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a fun time. So no, so let's go ahead and get that taken care of So, you know

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I said the said the prayer and did the thing and then I went back to doing whatever it was I was doing before I got my eternal destination sorted out

04:48

So after after high school, I wound up Running away from the

04:54

Lord for seven years from so from 1990 to 1997 I was in you never would have guessed that I was a

05:01

Christian I was I was deep undercover. As a matter of fact, I had some a non -believing friend

05:08

Too much to my embarrassment told me to watch my mouth this guy cussed like a sailor So that's that's that's rather convicting when your unsaved friend tells you to watch your mouth, right?

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so anyway, fast forward to the summer of 1997 I was in a relationship that I shouldn't have been in and which crashed and burned very very badly and I wound up burying my face in my pillow and just crying out to God to ask him to Forgive me of my my seven years of rebellion against him and to To to truly be

05:44

Lord of my life the way I put it back then is I'd say, you know, Lord take the keys to the car of my life because I can't drive and So so I've been walking by God's grace with him since 1990 summer of 1997

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All this happened while I was in in camp in NBA rookie camp with the the

06:06

Houston Rockets I did play I was in the minor leagues in in the

06:12

States played over in Europe and Wound up going to five

06:17

NBA rookie camps before it was all said and done It's a play against any like well -known basketball players

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Yeah, quite a few of course the most notable being on my 25th birthday. I got to play against a

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Shaquille O 'Neal and To make a long story that I've already written up on my personal website

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Very short. He tried to dunk on me about a half dozen times and he never got it through the hoop Which obviously, you know when some unknown white kid just kind of walks in off the streets of Houston Into the

06:49

Houston Rockets practice facility and says hey, you know here Let's play ball and I wound up, you know blocking the shots of the the league's best center

06:57

Who outweighed me by about 80 pounds and out earned me by about 10 .4 million dollars that year

07:04

Yeah that that got some attention so yeah, so eventually

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God led me to the Pacific Northwest where I eventually got married and Discovered this thing called apologetics via a radio broadcast and I got really into it and shortly after that God called me to start teaching and wound up taking the

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Writing cook co -authoring co -authoring my own Sunday school curriculum for sixth graders

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Taught that for seven years and then and then God kicked over my apple cart and said we need to change some things so wound up changing my entire approach to teaching and And Eventually took all my

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Lessons that I taught that I taught and put them into a book called Jesus is not the answer to every

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Sunday school question and then so in this in the what was it the

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Late 2018 I guess or January 2019. I think is when the book got published and then

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I started speaking Conferences and whatnot and then of course the corona apocalypse put everything on hold

08:18

I don't know. I think it's probably a good enough introduction for now. We'll get into more more details later,

08:23

I guess Yeah so for folks who are listening in audio that might want to get that article you refer to the website that for that is seven spelled out seven foot

08:34

Apologist comm seven foot apologist. I can't imagine where the seven foot comes from Well Let's just say that the

08:45

I have eight foot ceilings and I I can touch it but just by just by going like that So he's putting his thumb on his on his top of his head and his pinky up and yeah

08:55

That's 12 inches from from there to there. No, no, it's really funny. Do you have your cell phone handy?

09:01

Yeah, I do Yeah Just folks could watch to see it is big huge guy and he's got the smallest possible phone

09:09

And so in his He fits his entire phone like yeah, I can't even

09:14

I can't even do what you're doing by palming the Well, it's only an iPhone se so it's it's not a particularly large phone to begin with because I'm because I'm cheap you know, if I if I really wanted to spend the extra money for the

09:29

You know for the unlocked, you know Uber, you know surfboard and I would probably get one slightly larger but not quite the size of an iPad

09:37

So before we get into our topic we get some really important questions coming up already, but here's one

09:43

You're really seven foot. Well In my youth I was I was seven feet actually if you want the longer story

09:51

Which you probably don't but I'm gonna give it to you. Anyway, that's what I do I was when I was in junior college.

09:57

I was telling people. Hey, they say how tall are you? I say I'm 6 11 and 7 8 Because I'm an engineer and I'm into precision right and people eventually just started there people started telling me

10:08

Dan I think we can give you the eighth of an inch. So I'm like, okay so fine So I started because saying I'm 7 feet tall

10:15

Now I'm you know, I'm just over 50 years old And of course, you know the ravages of time and playing basketball and back injuries and everything else

10:23

What I like to say now is when I roll out of bed in the morning I'm 7 feet tall and I just get progressively shorter as the day goes on Up too late.

10:32

I might wind up being, you know, five two five three. So I had a friend He didn't he didn't want to admit.

10:38

He was seven foot. So he said he was six foot twelve inches Well, I had an episode like that in the in downtown

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Seattle. I was walking to work one day I used to work at Amazon as a software engineer And this guy comes up to me.

10:53

He says hey, man, I know who you is use Jack Sigma and I said no I'm not Jack Sigma Yes, you is

11:00

I seen you play he says how tall is you and I said, well I'm five foot twenty -four You're right, you're right,

11:09

I'm actually 611 Sorry, I'm actually 612 and he says man.

11:15

I would have thought you was at least seven feet tall Have it all in life, I guess

11:21

Yeah, he doesn't play is when you mentioned that they just don't they don't put the connection. No, it's the public school system

11:27

I'm sure I'm sure Adama is saying that Dan is proof that Nephilim are real

11:35

I would never do that. All right, so some comments that came in. Let's see. These are more toward me

11:42

Melissa is saying beard looks great Andrew Tom Shepard is saying are you going fully reformed with that beard?

11:53

I'm Shepard's got himself a pretty massive mane and his oh, yeah. Oh, yeah

11:59

Jesse says love the beard brother and then Claude is saying when did you grow the beard

12:04

Andrew? Well, you know, I have the beard for a very simple reason. I've had it a long -standing

12:11

Agreement with my bride that I like her with long hair. I think she looks better that way

12:16

She thinks she looks better with short hair and she thinks short hair is easier to maintain. I Think I look better with a beard.

12:22

I think having a beard is less as easier to maintain She thinks I look better without one.

12:28

So we've had a mutual agreement She keeps her hair long. I don't have a beard or I just keep a very very short beard

12:35

But since since she left me a week ago now, I'm growing my beard and well, she did leave me

12:42

I just she left me for a younger man He's about to She she left me for my grandson and she is she is out taking care of my grandson for for about four weeks

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Which means I get to let the beard grow in she knew that right away. She was like We're facetiming.

13:04

She goes. No, you're not. I said you're not here. You don't have to look at it So it gives me the advantage of seeing how white it is and when

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I do go out there and see my grandson I'm gonna get some pics with my grandson and I with my beard

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So as he gets older, he can know what his grandfather looked like when he looked really old so So Jesse also said

13:30

He got a donate to Kamala ad before the show Jesse. I'll tell you what you do if you get those

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The best thing to do is Please let it play out even click on the link to donate.

13:44

That's what I do on every one of the Kamala Harris ads Every time I see them because what it does it does two things one.

13:51

It takes money out of their campaign I know just a little bit But if we all did it it could help because they're only asking for $5 if we could all take the $5 away

13:59

Hey it but it also puts it in our pocket at the ministry here in striving fraternity

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So it's like a double win by doing this every time I see those come up. I I let them roll.

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I click I think I'll waste their their their money as best I can So yeah, well, let's get into our discussion tonight.

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So tonight what we want to do is talk about a fun topic a biblical topic of That's going to be presuppositional apologetics

14:35

And so Dan, could you do us a favor and start us off with?

14:41

you know just Well, I'll ask it this way You can either give your background of how you came into presupp because you kind of touched on that but Either start there or start with the definition whichever order but I'd like you to tackle both of those

14:55

Yeah, I kind of like to do the narrative thing first So people get a sense of where I'm coming from and why

15:00

I do what I do So I think I'd probably like to start there When I got first got started into apologetics

15:07

I was introduced to the whole field by What's his name the

15:14

Bible Answer Man guy the guy who went oh, oh, what's his face? Wow, I just lost it

15:24

Hard being blonde and old and all that stuff. What's his name? We'll come back to a canograph.

15:30

Yeah, there you go so I started listening to Hank Hanegraaff and so I got really interested in this because you know

15:36

It became like a like a game show for me It's like watching Jeopardy and you try to answer, you know before the before the contestant can you know?

15:44

And so I started having fun with it I was like man, this is like right up my alley because you know, I like I like to know the why's about things whys

15:54

And So I would I started getting interested in it and so I I don't remember what

16:00

What oh, so we are the church that I was attending at the time Started hosting an annual apologetics conference, which is now called the worldview apologetics conference it's the longest -running a

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Christian apologetics conference in the United States as I'm told and I Became a faithful attender.

16:20

So every year we had guys coming in that were You know the big name and big names and apologetics.

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I mean we're talking Norman Geisler William Lane Craig Dwayne Gish, I remember being there one year a whole bunch of guys right so there but they're largely representative of the

16:45

What we would call the I didn't know this at the time I didn't know anything about methodologies All I knew is like wow, they're you know answers and people ask questions.

16:52

You can give them answers and this is really cool, right? And I always heard, you know first Peter 315 commands us to be you know

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To have an answer for the hope that is within us yet with gentleness and respect, right? So I was like, you know got to have an answer.

17:05

So I'm like I'm studying to have all the answers and So I was at that I was

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I attended that conference For the first 16 or 17 years. I think

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I missed two years So I was there every single year and I was you know

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Dutifully taking notes and listening intently and take it to just taking it all in right? then one year

17:27

Ken Ham showed up to our church with an army of people selling books and They had a kids pack and they had an adult pack, you know, just big boxes full of books

17:38

I couldn't decide which to buy because I like to you know I talked to adults, but I was teaching kids at the time and I didn't know what to do.

17:44

So I did what any rational Person would do as I bought both Amen. Oh, I dropped about three hundred dollars plus on books that day took him home stack ranked them and Read through every single book cover to cover

18:01

Protip if you ever want any information buy a book from answers in Genesis just realize I love paper books

18:06

But almost everything in their books is on their website for free And a lot of the books recycle chapters so I could actually what

18:14

I got done I actually could trace Okay, this question is answered in this book and this book in this book and that matter of fact the chapters are identical

18:23

So anyway pro tip there And so as part of you know answers in Genesis approach

18:29

They had this thing they started talking about called presuppositional apologetics Now I would not call what answers in Genesis does

18:39

Full -orbed kind of Vantillion Bonson and we'll get into this a little bit later I wouldn't call that like full -strength apologetics because you know, they are more geared towards towards a younger audience

18:50

I think and people who are just getting started people who are basically not scholars right ordinary folk and So I was like, huh?

18:57

That's interesting Well, yeah, they said, you know, the Bible is our authority and we start with the Bible and you work out from there

19:02

I'm like, yeah, sounds sounds like a good idea Right, and so I just added that to my toolbox of things that I would do

19:09

I got through all the books and eventually You know when

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I like I mentioned in my intro Started I started doing this. I started doing apologetics full -time quit my job.

19:22

Actually God helped me quit. I got laid off twice in less than in less than 12 months and Just started doing the speaking thing full -time

19:32

Well when the corona pocalypse hit God put me on a weight program W a I T And so I had nothing much to do but sit around and just wait for you know, wait for the whole

19:43

Two years to flatten the curve to be over, right? And so as I was, you know trolling around the internet one day

19:50

I guess YouTube decided that I needed to see this this video from this crazy Canadian named site and bruggen

19:57

Kate and I watched his video and I was like This is a very very different approach to apologetics

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Like why have I never seen this before, you know 17 years of attending the largest

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Apologetics conference in the in the nation and I have never heard anybody speak like this. It just blew my mind so I I Wound up contacting sigh on Twitter and we went back and forth with private messages for three hours

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Because I was just I was just picking his brain like well What about this and what about that and what about this and he was explaining everything to me?

20:35

I was like, wow, this is fascinating. So instantly I'm on Amazon ordering ordering some books.

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I got I Started off with I think it was this was my first book presuppositional apologetics by Greg Bonson stated and defended

20:51

Read through that and then I got against all opposition Greg Bonson Read through that and then

20:57

I was told about this guy named John frame, you know, John M frame apologetics a

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Justification of Christian belief and I read them all But I was like something was still kind of bugging me about it

21:11

I really appreciated the way so basically the the the this is probably a good time for me to start talking about what a

21:17

Presuppositional apologetics is it's if you want to boil presuppositional apologetics down to it.

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I like what size says I just watched an interview that he did about four years ago that I was reminded of you know, how to boil this down He says presupposition presuppositional apologetics is basically this believe your

21:36

Bible and do what it says Amen read your Bible believe it and do what it says.

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It's like, huh? Yeah, that's that's pretty much it But the thing that was bugging me about these books that I that I just that I just flashed in front of the camera here

21:52

Is that they seem to start from that position? but it quickly became very thickly mired in philosophy and And I'm I don't really

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I can tolerate Philosophy for me is kind of like I liken it to kind of like hard liquor.

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It's best had in very very very small doses And I Basically, I'm of the opinion that you know philosophy is is kind of like underwear

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It's it's great for support, but you don't have to show it to everybody And I think that's what

22:27

I was really having a problem with with presuppositional apologetics proper like the van that described by Van Til and Bonson and others and indeed

22:39

Apologetics in general I think really suffers from being saturated with unbiblical thinking and more specifically with with philosophical thinking right at Aristotelian logic and everything else and we have to we hyper rationalize everything and we tend to forget the the chief end of apologetics what it should be

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As as defined in Scripture as demonstrated in Scripture so after talking with sigh and having a couple more hours of private messages and then a zoom call or two had him over for had him over at my house for dinner and just still picking his brain and I'm I'm really appreciating the

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Bible first approach and you know, don't put your sword down and don't be ashamed of it and just you know Hey, you know, it's about it's about getting people the gospel.

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It's not about It's not about you know, philosophizing them to death like, you know,

23:33

Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, right? Of course, you don't know anything about that but philosophize with him Ted, you know

23:40

Sorry, I know that movie reference is lost on you Andrew Come on, don't you assume that I?

23:47

Immediately no, okay forget it So anyway

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Yeah, so I I felt like wow, you know this this approach is really it's it's closer to where I think

24:02

Apologetics should be but it's it's still it feels like it gets off in the weeds pretty quickly Go ahead you sound like you want to say something.

24:10

Oh, you're just breathing Okay, sorry not used to that when my when I speak sometimes people just die and I don't know about it

24:17

So eventually I discovered Another book that we can probably probably talk about a little bit later.

24:24

Oh, hey look I You turned your head away. I'm like, I'm pretending like I'm dead and you didn't even notice

24:30

Wow, it's your life alert necklace Yeah, not close pendant, right? Yeah So yeah that I discovered another book by Clifford McManus called

24:41

Biblical apologetics and I think that one really hit the nail on the head for me but just to kind of recap, you know,

24:48

I started off as largely an Evidentialist and I guess you could say a an aspiring classicist, but you know some of the philosophical arguments

24:57

I wish I just you know, kind of make my my brain melt and drip out of my ears. I really resonated with the

25:06

With it with the evidential approach and here's here's here's a funny story So I had I told sigh

25:11

I had this I had this presentation called why should anyone believe the Bible and It was one hour of me talking about evidences manuscript evidence archaeology prophecy statistical probability, etc, etc and Every time

25:24

I delivered that presentation I felt utterly defeated at the end and it got worse after I after I met sigh it got way way worse

25:34

And I was just like man Why is that you know one guy told me and I one guy in Idaho told me says man Dan I've learned more about apologetics and the

25:43

Christian faith and 50 minutes of your presentation that particular Presentation that I have in years of Sunday school.

25:48

I was like brother. That's that's quite an indictment on your Sunday school experience Don't you think? And it wasn't sure how

25:55

I really felt about that but people you know, you loved that presentation But I hated it and I couldn't figure out why

26:04

So I I asked sigh if he would if he would watch it and tell me what he thought he says sure So the next day

26:09

I said, hey, did you watch my presentation? He goes? Yep. I said, what'd you think? He says oh, I hated it.

26:14

Yes Yes Finally somebody hates my presentation. Tell me why he says

26:21

I'm not gonna tell you why And I'm like, oh, thanks. I and he says no, I'm just gonna ask you one question.

26:26

He says is that why you believe the Bible? Now, you know,

26:32

I Only had to think for about three and a half seconds and I said well, well, no he says why do you believe the

26:37

Bible and then I gave him like a 30 -second answer and He says well, why are you if that's the reason why you believe the

26:45

Bible? Then why are you spending an hour in front of your audience? Tell him they should believe the Bible for this other reason So, you know what?

26:50

They call that right? And I said, yeah that that nagging feeling. I was feeling it was called conviction over my hypocrisy so And now you get up and do it you do two dot overs and that talk is 30 seconds and yeah

27:04

I was asked I was invited to give to give that why should anyone believe the Bible presentation? For stand a reason they had a youth apologetics rally here in Washington around the time that you know, the corona pocalypse was in full swing and They they asked

27:21

I have this conversation with sigh about you know Four or five months before I'm supposed to deliver this presentation and I'm like I can never deliver this presentation again.

27:30

Not in that form So I really wrestled with it and so I helped me kind of you know, walk through it and say, you know

27:37

He's like you can salvage the presentation I says it's you know with a little bit of tweaking you can salvage it But I just felt so utterly convicted

27:44

That I just threw the entire thing away. I kept the title and the end card and everything in the middle got changed

27:51

And so there I was I went in with a fully presuppositional approach

27:57

Basically saying let's see what the Bible has to say about why you believe Right and stop talking about evidences and and all this other stuff

28:05

So there you have, you know in one conference in one room You have Greg Kochel giving a largely classical approach in one room

28:13

And then you have Jay Warner Wallace in another room giving his evidential approach and here

28:19

I am I sneak under the covers at stand to reason and I'm I'm hitting everybody with the presuppositional thing

28:26

And so it was uh, yeah, I don't think I'm getting invited back to anything stand to reason hosts ever again

28:33

So I think I kind of burned that bridge so The ladies just set some records straight because I see some things in the chat

28:42

Melissa is telling KT that I am growing my beard because I'm protesting my bride.

28:47

That is not the reason Melissa I almost made Drink that was great for folks who are watching live.

28:55

It's got a treat No, I'm not protesting my bride The fact that she is hanging out with my grandson and getting to enjoy that time as that's not the reason

29:05

Melissa I just think I look better with the beard and it's less to maintain and since my wife isn't here, too

29:11

I look good. I try to look good for her. She's not here to see so So basically it boils down to this when there's nobody around to tell

29:19

Andrew how good he looks and he only Only person he gets to see in the house is himself in the mirror.

29:25

He has to make himself look good for himself Well, there's no me look good period but so I don't typically wear a t -shirt

29:35

But I told you that I wore one just for this show Because you know as we think about a definition for presuppositional apologetics

29:43

It really is it's in my mind this simple right that we start with God It you have to start with God.

29:52

If you don't start with God, you can't make sense of of anything that we see and So the starting point if you think about the way an atheist professing atheist wants to argue

30:03

They want you to try to prove God exists Let's start with God doesn't exist.

30:09

In other words start with their worldview and then argue for yours Why should we do that?

30:16

And and so I don't do that. So the t -shirt I have Stand up and show it it says

30:24

God exists he has spoken and That is my two presuppositions.

30:30

My two presuppositions that I hold to is God exists and he has spoken So I don't I don't try to prove

30:36

God exists. I Don't try to prove the Bible is God's Word. I take it for granted.

30:43

It's an axiom It's something that's non -provable because if there's anything that could prove either of those

30:49

They would be greater than both of those. Yeah, and so and and people will say well

30:55

You know, but the atheist is gonna tell you that they don't believe Duh, yeah, and so my definition

31:04

Yeah, so the the thing that I find funny is I remember and You you mentioned

31:12

Psy he's got his, you know film that he put out some years ago and He tells the story and in case anyone's wondering whether this story this story is real

31:23

I was right there when this happened Psy and I were in California We went and grabbed a slice of pizza.

31:30

We're coming back to the pier to do some more witnessing and This guy was on a bike he was walking a bike he

31:39

Psy starts talking to him he he had like a Buddhist book in his in the little basket in the front of the bike and But he's telling

31:47

Psy that he's he's an atheist. He may be I might like it Buddhism. Maybe he'd like that one

31:54

And he tells Psy I don't believe God exists And Psy just goes. Yes, you do

31:59

And the guy just literally puts his hand in his face his hand in his face and just shakes his head it goes You're right.

32:05

I do and it was like, you know It was the funniest experience because you know what

32:11

Psy was ready to give them to give him Was Romans chapter 1? Okay, because in Romans chapter 1

32:19

It says in starting in verse 18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in Unrighteousness because that which is known about God is evident evident within them

32:43

For God made it evident To them and so this is the kind of the one verse that really

32:51

I argue presuppositional hangs on Presuppositionalism hangs on it is the idea that I go into every conversation knowing that the person that I'm speaking to Knows that God exists

33:05

It's not that they have to be taught it They know God exists I'm not having to try to I don't need to convince them of that What I need to do is point out that they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness

33:18

And and that was a great Experience with Psy because it just he put it in the film because it was just such a classic experience where the guy knew he knew it and You know, so I'm gonna give a quick shout out.

33:31

This is a name you might know but Matt yester is in the in the house. I haven't seen him in a long time commenting here

33:38

But what's he commenting on my beard? He says salt and pepper nice beard Andrew, so You know, the guy's brilliant and that's and he's commenting on my beard

33:49

He's got to get in here and start discussing this topic as well So so yeah,

33:55

I think that an easy way to understand presuppositionalism and last week you knew had some issue with me saying it, but I think

34:03

I think the the view that you and I share of Presupp is not the philosophical version and For that reason

34:13

I say that when we look at these different views, I kind of view that You know evidential apologetics is is the approach of those who love science.

34:23

This is the scientist Classical apologetics is the is the philosophers apologetic and Presuppositional apologetic is the theologians apologetic

34:37

I'm glad you brought that back up because I actually found a portion of a quote from Cornelius van

34:44

Til who as you know And others may be just now learning is the one who originally I guess you could say he he created this approach or Made it well

34:55

He made it well known and and he is if you try reading van

35:00

Til folks Vanta I mean, I have the complete works of until I've read them. It is

35:05

Difficult reading. Yeah, I don't encourage you to do that. Yeah, so he said quote

35:11

Apologetics is the vindication of the Christian philosophy of life and there was an ellipsis

35:17

Apologetics deals mostly with philosophy and that's from his book Christian apologetics apparently on page one

35:24

So even so this is this is this is the thing that kind of tripped me up when

35:30

I was reading Bonson and frame You know Bonson was a student of Cornelius van Til and I believe

35:36

John frame was as well So they're both, you know, the guys who kind of took that until his method and kind of made it up, you know more broadly applicable to more people and more broadly accessible to more people but even you know

35:48

Cornelius van Til in the later portion of his life was apparently wished that he had been a little more gospel focused in his approach to apologetics and that would be my

35:58

Primary critique of the way I see presuppositional apologetics attempted or done

36:03

In the books anyway as it comes across is very very very philosophy philosophical

36:11

Whereas so that's why when you asked me to talk about presuppositional apologetics It kind of gave me heartburn because I you know

36:18

I don't consider myself a van Til Ian or a Bonson Ian or a frame Ian in my in my approach to presuppositional

36:25

Apologetics I kind of boil it down a little more a little more Down closer to the

36:30

Bible than even what they would do I would be closer to like Jason Lyle has a really good book called the ultimate proof of creation, which

36:38

I found incredibly helpful It's a great primer on on on logic to if you if you want one of those

36:46

So it's That that was my that was my problem with it And When I read

36:54

Clifford McManus's book biblical apologetics That's when everything really clicked for me and and because it kind of it kind of backs up and it says, okay

37:03

You know every time we talk about apologetics, you know, we introduce apologetics to people We always go to first Peter 315, but you know what?

37:12

I've never heard anybody except for James White James R.

37:19

White of King James only controversy fame Only I have only heard him talk about the context of first Peter 315 and what that actually means so if we could

37:30

I'd like to back back the truck way up and Talk about that if you're if you're ready for that, let's go for it.

37:39

All right So, you know, we always talk about what in my early days and the way I always heard, you know

37:45

There are two there are two primary cornerstone verses in the Bible. They talk about a Christian apologetics its first Peter 315

37:52

Which is but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts always being ready to make a defense To everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you but with gentleness and respect

38:02

But of course usually when that votes that verse is quoted We leave off the sanctify

38:07

Christ as Lord and I'll get to that So that's that usually gets left off and then we go over to Jude 3 says, you know

38:14

Always be beloved. I made it when I was making my what do you say? I He urges us to contend earnestly for the faith.

38:23

This is what happens when I try to remember verses But he you know,

38:29

I always I was always taught that first Peter 315 is like defensive apologetics and Jude 3 is

38:34

You know offensive apologetics. So because you're contending for the faith you're fighting for the faith and I was like, oh, okay yeah, that makes total sense to me and I just kind of accepted that uncritically because all the

38:46

Giants who had come before me were We're kind of spouting this off. And so I just kind of took it as I get interrupt.

38:53

Yeah, you're referring to Giants Oh boy, here we go. I knew it. I knew as soon as I said that I'm like, man

38:59

He's gonna stop me and he's gonna say something about this. Yes the intellectual Giants So You know you got guys like You know

39:10

RC Sproul Says, you know apologetics is the reasoned defense of the Christian religion

39:16

Norman Geisler in his bakery encyclopedia of apologetics says apologetics is the discipline that deals with a rational defense of the

39:24

Christian faith and Then my you know, probably my favorite is William Lane Craig, you know being a professional philosopher is a little more wordy

39:31

He says apologetics is that discipline that tries to answer what are the rational grounds for believing that Christianity is true and so I was just like, okay.

39:41

Well, that's you know, these guys have PhDs and I don't so I'm just gonna buy what they're selling but the the thing is their their approach to their approach to Apologetics is generally a two -step a two -step affair.

39:55

It's number one provide arguments to prove that God exists For example

40:00

RC Sproul says where do you start in Christian apologetics? of course I've always taken the position that the starting point of Christian apologetics is the demonstration of the existence of God if you can get that established at the beginning the rest is easy and the approach that I take for Establishing the existence of God as we will see in this course is basically through rational argumentation

40:22

And So they want to prove that God exists and then the second thing they do is they present evidences that validate the

40:29

Bible's truth claims And so I'm like, okay that approach seems entirely rational. It seems reasonable.

40:35

It seems sensible. I'm all on board You know, there's one big question. I never bothered to ask myself

40:41

Andrew. You know what that question is How tall are you? For those in the audio he just shrunk down under the microphone

40:57

No, the question is is it biblical right? When we look at the

41:02

Bible is you know Is this approach, you know prove that God exists and then present evidences that that validate the

41:07

Bible's truth claims Is that the biblical approach to apologetics? Is that what's really going on? But of course, you know as you've already read from Romans 1 18 through the end of the chapter

41:17

The Bible's very very clear that everybody knows that God exists and I'm quick to point out that it's not just like we all know

41:25

That that a God exists or there's some higher power. No Paul was a devout monotheist, right?

41:31

And by this point he was absolutely a follower of Christ So he knew that just like you know Israel was taught from the very beginning hero

41:38

Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one and all others are but idols, right?

41:43

So the when we're proven that God exists, you know, what are we doing? Somebody comes up to me and says

41:49

I don't believe that God exists prove to me that he exists And then if I engage him in that conversation

41:55

What am I doing? What am I saying about God's Word? I'm believing what the atheist says as True and what

42:04

God says is a lie Because I if I engage him in that conversation in that way, then what

42:10

I've basically said is okay Lord I know you said that you know that everybody believes that you exist

42:16

But he this atheist here doesn't believe that you exist. So I'm gonna go ahead and and improve to him that you exist

42:23

Yeah, right. So now we're calling God a liar. Well, you're honored by that.

42:29

You're starting with his argument See, this is the thing. I think people don't pick up on is when we do that We're giving more credence to their argument than we are to our argument

42:43

We're we're they want us to start in their worldview. And what do we do go? Okay Why their world makes no sense

42:51

And when they argue with me about this, I'll say well look because because sometimes I've had a professing atheist that want to okay well, let's let's discuss this and I go

43:00

I'll look and say like how You believe we're just chemical reactions, right?

43:06

Yes. Okay. So can you pour me a cup of knowledge? Show me show me a cup of truth

43:15

Or a couple laws of logic. Yeah, these are all immaterial things and They want to argue but what is their arguments rely on an ability to reason the laws of logic truth

43:31

Knowledge Morality and what's true of all of those five things one?

43:37

They're all immaterial to They're all absolute three

43:43

They're all universal So they need an immaterial absolute universal source you you cannot

43:54

You cannot reason that God does not exist without God first existing to give you that ability to reason

44:01

That's why the fool says in his heart There is no God because you need to use your God -given ability to reason to reason that God doesn't exist

44:08

You see how foolish that ends up being and this is why I don't think That we give that up Yeah, let me let me this might be a good time

44:18

Fatima had some some things she said classical apologists begin with the mind The reality that every person without exception knows

44:27

God exists here priests up and class classics converge not really because they

44:34

They would they do start with the mind all of the the positions

44:41

Accept that God exists. The difference is the other two can try to argue to God's existence one from the natural world one from the mind and Fatima that's the difference with this.

44:55

So, you know, and she said don't Let's not be allergic to philosophy wisdom books our philosophy

45:03

The the issue is we're not arguing About philosophy here and saying we're afraid of it or allergic to it

45:11

What we're saying is when which is the best approach and in my opinion the best approach is to start with telling the atheist

45:19

No, you need to in fact, you're required to step into my world view to even argue for yours

45:27

You cannot make an argument for your world view without Making you know, you can't just say all here's let's let's make an argument that God doesn't exist

45:40

But we're not going to use reason. We're not going to use Logic, we're not going to use truth.

45:45

We're not going to use morality and we're not going to use knowledge Go for it Then nothing makes sense

45:53

Right, and that becomes that's the thing that we have to recognize. We have to recognize is

46:00

Then the I would say the natural or the required starting point is presuppositional

46:08

Yeah, I think that's that's the key is the direction in which you argue Right, so the the the other the other branches of the other disciplines of apologetics are always going to argue to the truth of God's Word We start with the truth of God's Word and I think

46:27

I can demonstrate that from Scripture if we can continue sure so proving that God exists is clearly

46:34

That's it's it's it's it's made it. It's it's militated against in Romans chapter 1, right?

46:40

So why are you trying to prove to somebody something that they already believe but they refuse to admit?

46:46

Right, it's it's it's it's not going to be a fruitful exercise So then this the second step is of course to present evidences

46:54

But the Bible has something to say about this as well for example, you go to Luke 16 31 where in Jesus gives the account of the rich man and Lazarus and how

47:04

The rich man being in torment in Hades begs for Abraham to send Lazarus to the rich man's family to warn them about what's to come

47:12

Right. Well, what was Abraham's response? Abraham said to the rich man in Hades if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead

47:25

Right, so miracles by themselves are clearly not the answer because Jesus in his very own illustration

47:34

Says as much right they're not gonna be persuaded They've got the Word of God God wrote a book and he gave it to us if they're not gonna believe that They're not gonna believe the miracles because they'll find a way to explain them away according to their own worldview

47:49

Then we can go to Matthew 28 17 Which is the verse that's right before the Great Commission now.

47:54

Most of us are Evangelical Christians, you know lowercase e I guess we could say we believe that you know

48:01

We have our marching orders in Matthew 28 19 20 Matthew 28 18 and 19 right go you and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me go ye therefore into all the world and baptizing all you know teaching baptizing all the nations

48:15

Baptizing the name of the Father Son the Holy Spirit and teaching them to do obey all that I've commanded you make disciples, right?

48:20

Sorry, I butchered the order So but the thing is the verse right before that you've got these 11 disciples who have spent three

48:31

Years with Jesus and they saw more about that what Jesus said and did that anybody in the world right

48:37

John 21 25 Says there are many other things which Jesus did which if they were written in detail

48:42

I suppose that even the world itself would not contain all the books that would be written but what is Matthew 28 17 say when they saw him they worshipped him, but Some were doubtful.

48:55

So there's something very interesting going on here when the disciples heard Everything that Jesus said and taught

49:02

And and saw his miracles and saw all that but yet still at the very end Some he just risen from the dead and he's getting ready to ascend into heaven and they're still doubtful.

49:12

So clearly Seeing is not believing right? So this is why

49:17

I think evidences are kind of militated against by the scriptures And the reason is is because when we get to John 3 19,

49:25

I think we see it We see the answer the reason why this is John 3 19 and 20

49:30

Jesus says this is the judgment that the light has come into the world and men loved darkness, they agape the darkness

49:39

More than that rather than light for their deeds were evil For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed

49:49

So lack of evidence is not the problem. The problem is a love of our evil deeds, right?

49:58

It's it's a it's a worldview problem You know when Jesus went back to the to the to the synagogue in Nazareth, you know, he stood up and they say wow

50:08

You know, what is this wisdom that has been given given this man? And you know, what are these miracles that are performed by his hand, you know?

50:14

Who does this guy think he is isn't this, you know little Yeshua who was running around the synagogue, you know

50:21

They they had a hard time with that. Nobody denied his wisdom Nobody denied his miracles but yet they couldn't get over the fact that this little guy this little this little boy

50:31

Yeshua grew up to be a man who was God in the flesh And so their preconceived notions of who they who they thought

50:39

Jesus was We're getting in the way of who he truly is and who he revealed himself to be

50:44

So we always interpret evidence in light of that which we already Believe and that's why the use of evidences

50:52

I think is so is so ill -advised In an apologetic encounter now, there are good uses for evidences and I can talk about those a little bit later.

51:02

Yeah Let me get to some comments that were being raised because it gets from here.

51:09

So I'll just go in order even though I think that this one may be for so Chuck said if one can be argued into the kingdom

51:19

They could later be argued out of the kingdom. And this is really an argument for the classical evidential view that you know we had pre -supposition else would have against it right if if I can convince you by evidence and You're you believe in God because of the evidence

51:38

Then can't someone else come alongside and give you better evidence to show You shouldn't believe yeah to be clear, you know

51:46

Paul did reason with people He reasoned constantly, but he reasoned from the scriptures, right?

51:52

So there is there is an element of reason that comes into play, you know God saves by his sovereign will but there's also a response that we have, you know, we have to make

52:04

So this kind of gets into soteriology, which is another, you know another topic But I think you know as James White likes to say your your theology dictates your apologetics

52:14

Mmm, so, you know when you've when you've got a view of when you're and when your anthropology or your soteriology are off you're gonna have a quite a different approach to apologetics because Suddenly it becomes less about what

52:30

God does and it becomes more about what man does So another another thing that was in here is let me pull it up faith contending who we haven't seen for a while says

52:44

Bonson is well -known frame is so underrated You should read more, you know, there's those are good

52:53

Both those guys, but they are hard to read And and so if people are gonna start out there's there's some there are some good books and we're gonna get to them later

53:03

We'll give you some resources that I think are some better ones Matt yester says philosophy is the love of wisdom start with God's wisdom

53:14

Yeah, and that's that's what we do. God exists. He has spoken right? So that's that's the point Peter is saying the atheist starts with the knowledge of God and denies it.

53:24

That is an important point of it It's the idea that The they have the knowledge of God They know he exists they are suppressing that so Let me put it this way if You are a medical doctor

53:43

You have a patient the patient has a disease and it's going to kill them very quickly and You have a cure

53:53

Are you going to sit there when they deny when you say you have this type of cancer and they go? No, I don't

54:00

Are you just gonna say okay have a good day and let them walk out the office or are you going to Basically say look you have this disease you could you came in to see me because you're feeling the effects of this disease

54:15

You know, they gotta get right. You don't sit there and say, okay, you want to pretend you don't have the disease

54:20

I'll let you go with that You don't let them go with the fact that they're trying to suppress the truth of God's existence and go well, you know

54:28

I'm just gonna let you believe that for a while. No It's um, sorry, but it's true whether you like it or not

54:38

Does every apologist should never start with a position where God doesn't exist well, we would agree with that Fatima, but some evidentialists and even some classical lists would

54:52

Do exactly this There are people in the neutrality fallacy, yeah, there are people who will say literally

55:00

I've heard Some of the best -known apologists out there. They would say I can argue for God without using a

55:11

Bible Well, then you're not arguing for God right, because First off they already know

55:20

God exists. But the thing is is that You you're not trying you're what are you doing then you're trying to convince them when

55:27

God exists look at the world I'm gonna show you from the rest of the world not from God's self -revelation The only way we know about God is what he has revealed to us

55:39

Yes, we can look at creation and see some of that But we're not gonna know much about we as that passage says right we can know something about his power

55:47

We can know something about his attributes But we don't know God From creation.

55:54

We know God from his word Andrew from down under and Australia says

56:02

I agree with Ken Ham that we start with God's authority and Use God's Word as truth.

56:08

I do not agree with him after that Well, I agree with Ken on a lot of things. I would say that I Start with God exist that right like this t -shirt says

56:18

God exists. He has spoken. I start with God exists and Then our Lutheran friend who we haven't seen in a long time

56:25

Rob said so Presuppositionalists can interfere with presuppositions where presuppositions can interfere with the

56:36

Interpretation of evidence. Well, that's just that's the whole point, right? It's not that they interfere with is that all your interpretations come out of your presuppositions right, so It's an overused analogy, but you know your presuppositions are your worldview they're the lens through which you look at life and if you have a everybody has presuppositions and Depending upon you know, what your what your particular worldview is or your starting point.

57:03

You're going to interpret the evidence differently The classic example of this of course is the field of geology, right?

57:09

You get a scriptural geologist on one hand and you get a Biblical geologist at the other hand They'll look at the same rock at the same time in the same space and they'll come to drastically different conclusions about the age of that Rock.

57:21

Why is it because of the scientific evidence? No It's because of their starting points because of their presuppositions and they filter all the information they get through those presuppositions

57:32

Yeah, and so you have to attack you have to address the presuppositional problem you have to address the worldview issues

57:40

So, let me let me ask you a question We talked about presuppositional ism We've kind of mentioned some names on frame

57:50

Bonson vent Hill Jason Lyle side and brougham Kate As we mentioned these names do they all agree are this is him question

57:59

I asked I'm gonna ask of each of the each of the different positions. Are there different camps within presuppositional ism?

58:06

Yeah, there are I'm not so I'm not I don't really play the camp game. So but I do know that Bonson and frame in particular have slightly different approaches.

58:17

It's been honestly It's been what four years since I've read frames book So I don't remember what those differences are, but I just I am aware that there are some differences there and You know different basic differences and how deep you go into the philosophy

58:33

So this is this is the way I put it to Jason Lyle I was blessed with the opportunity to meet him and spend about an hour talking with him one day before a presentation and I said

58:41

Jason the way I see it the what answers and what you know, Bonson and Van Til did was

58:48

Presuppositional apologetics. I said, I think what you do is diet presuppositional apologetics

58:54

Because he kind of strips all the stuff you don't need and he boils it down to it's you know More of a bare essence. It's much more what's easier to understand for the average person

59:02

I said, I think what answers in Genesis does is caffeine free diet apologetics I mean they strip even more out and it's just basically down to the basic principle start with God's Word and You know, that's that is your authority and that is the core essence of the presuppositional

59:19

Presuppositional approach but I don't want us to lose where I was trying to go which is back to the first Peter 315

59:25

So I want to get back to that finish that up. Okay, so So but sanctify

59:34

Christ is Lord in your hearts Yes, that's the that's the first thing that we tend to lose and presuppositional apologetics

59:39

We the sanctification of Christ as Lord in our hearts, which is really just an illusion. It's basically

59:45

Peters Quoting in the verses that precede 315 he's actually quoting from was

59:51

Isaiah 8 So there's you know, the context is often said well, you know apologetics is just like, you know

59:56

The the ancient Greeks and the in a court of law or whatever I don't think that's what Peter had in mind in terms of this context what especially when he quotes

01:00:03

Isaiah 8 right before it but Getting down to the to the make a defense the word apologia the

01:00:11

Greek word apologia can be rendered as either a defense or an answer and I'm more inclined to believe that answer is

01:00:17

The word that we that we should should lean more closely to Because of the the baggage that I think comes along with defense.

01:00:25

So when we think of defense we think okay We got to formulate an argument. We got to get involved, you know, we got to do this We got to do that But I think the context you we need to understand first Peter 315 in the context of the entire

01:00:36

Letter that Peter wrote when we do that if we take a flyover starting in chapter 1

01:00:43

I'm gonna read you some some some I'm just gonna fly over the entire book and I'm gonna call out

01:00:48

I'm just gonna read some verses and see if you can notice a pattern Starting in chapter 1 verse 6 in this you greatly rejoice even now even though now for a little while if necessary You have been distressed by various trials chapter 2 verse 12

01:01:02

Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles so that in the thing in which they slander you as evil doers

01:01:07

They may because of your good deeds as they observe them glorify God in the day of visitation Servants be submissive to your masters with all respect not only to those who are good and gentle but also to those who are unreasonable

01:01:20

For this finds favor if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under the sorrows when suffering unjustly

01:01:27

For what credit is there if when you sin and are harshly treated you endure it with patience? But if you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it this finds favor with God For you have been called for this purpose since Christ also suffered for you leaving you an example for you to follow in his steps

01:01:44

Just as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear

01:01:52

Not returning evil for evil or insult for insult But giving a blessing instead for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing

01:02:01

Beloved do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you which comes upon you for your testing as though some strange thing

01:02:07

We're happening to you, but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ Oops, it's actually scrolled keep on rejoicing so that at the at the revelation of his glory you may rejoice with exultation after for If you are reviled for the name of Christ You are blessed because the spirit of glory and of God rests on you

01:02:27

Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer or thief or evildoer or troublesome meddler

01:02:32

But if anyone suffers as a Christian he is not to be ashamed but is to glorify

01:02:38

God in this name So I skipped over Chapter 3 verse 15 because I want to take a look at that a little more closely.

01:02:46

So verses 14 15 and 16 reads thusly But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness

01:02:53

You are blessed and do not fear their intimidation and do not be in dread But sanctify

01:02:59

Christ as Lord in your hearts always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the

01:03:05

Hope that is in you But with gentleness and respect and keep a good conscience So then the thing in which you are slandered those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame

01:03:16

Now if you're paying close attention There's a theme that runs throughout first Peter and that is righteous living in the midst of persecution

01:03:25

Peter mentions over and over again people slandering us people talking ill of us people being unreasonable

01:03:32

And suffering for the cause of Christ and then he says but even if you should suffer do not fear their intimidation

01:03:40

Don't be in dread. But in here's the here's the one thing I really want to call out first Peter 3 15 the imperative there the imperative verb is

01:03:51

Not to give a defense the imperative is to sanctify Christ is

01:03:56

Lord in your hearts. That is the command the rest of it is supporting that so in other words

01:04:03

Here's the command Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts God the Lord Jesus Christ is to be

01:04:09

Lord of every aspect of our life and thinking He has to be the Lord of our metaphysics.

01:04:14

He's to be the Lord of our ethics He's to be the Lord of our epistemology or how we know things.

01:04:20

He's the Lord of our thoughts He's the Lord of our wisdom and the Lord of knowledge like he is chief.

01:04:26

He is preeminent above all of creation so That is the command that we're given

01:04:33

Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts when he says it we do it two words that don't go well in the

01:04:39

English language No, and Lord, that's not an option for a believer. Okay So the rest of it is just basically a participle so what is sanctifying

01:04:48

Christ look like Well always being ready to make and to make a defense or to give an answer for what?

01:04:56

For everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you

01:05:02

But with gentleness and respect now Why would somebody in the context of first Peter ask you to give an account for the hope that is within you?

01:05:13

Because you're being persecuted and you're enduring that persecution in such a way that it makes the world look at you and go

01:05:21

What is your problem? How is it that you're able to go through? Persecution and suffering and all that the world throws at you for the cause of Christ and you still maintain your joy

01:05:32

And you still maintain your peace Like how in the world do you do that?

01:05:38

And it's at that point that is the end that is the question that we are called To always have an answer for and you know what the answer to that question is your testimony

01:05:50

Your answer is Jesus Christ It says to ask everyone to give an account for the hope that is in us and our hope is not in a bucket of Facts right.

01:05:59

Our hope is not in the fact that God created everything in six days Is that our hope is not in the preconditions of intelligibility

01:06:08

The hope is not in the the the basic reliability of the senses. Our hope is in Jesus Christ But but wait,

01:06:16

Andy Stanley says that our hope is in the resurrection Not the Bible Not sure how you'd learn about the resurrection if it weren't for scripture

01:06:27

Right, there's the problem. Yeah So, I mean you go back to 1st Peter 1 3 right says we are born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead 1st

01:06:37

Peter 1 13 10 verses later Set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ And if we expand our context a little bit we go up to one of Paul's two of Paul's epistles 1st

01:06:49

Timothy 1 1 Paul an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus who is our

01:06:57

Hope and then Colossians 1 27 Christ in you the hope of glory

01:07:03

So the answer that we're called to give again, this is what 1st Peter is all about right living in the face of suffering for Christ When you go through that suffering you should be living your life in such a way that the world can't help but take notice and say

01:07:18

What is your problem? What makes you so what makes you so different and then you could say, you know what?

01:07:23

I'm glad you asked. Let me tell you about the death burial and resurrection of the Lord. Jesus Christ Let me tell you about your sins and where you're going

01:07:30

But that let me tell you about the sacrifice that Christ made to pay for your sins So you don't have to spend an eternity in hell

01:07:38

That is the answer that everybody is called to give if you've been redeemed by the blood of the

01:07:43

Lamb if you call yourself Count yourself among the redeemed. You're a Bible. You're a blood -bought bulletproof child of the

01:07:50

King You'd better be able to tell people about what he has done in your life

01:07:55

If you can't tell people that you might want to re -examine your own yourself and say do

01:08:00

I really believe this has Christ really done? A work in my life because that's the answer you're called to give you're not called to give philosophical answers, right?

01:08:08

Peter was a fisherman God turned the world upside down with fishermen largely

01:08:16

But he's not Politicians was that he's still smarter than most of our politicians just like So, you know folks

01:08:26

I mean, I I know I'm gonna go to some icons some great comments that are commending you and on Your presentation what you said, but I just as we go through this and we look at each of the different views and up, you know approaches to apologetics and You know

01:08:45

The thing I want you to see is Presuppositional apologetics is easy

01:08:52

It really is you look at the others and there's a lot of information you have to understand with Evidential apologetics, there's a lot of facts and details you got to memorize or have ready at hand

01:09:07

To make the case and you got to study a lot With a classical approach you have to understand the philosophy you have to dig deep because a lot of it is

01:09:19

Understanding that argument that philosophical argument and knowing how to know both of those are groups

01:09:27

Those who do it well They will argue for You know the gods existence

01:09:34

Okay, and so when and I think last week we mentioned the the bold Podcast where I got to meet the guys that were there.

01:09:45

I ended up addressing priests up on that show And it would be weird for me to have interview myself that that would just be weird

01:09:56

I did try to get Jason Lyle and and that was when I asked Dan he goes why don't you get Jason Lyle?

01:10:01

I said I did he was busy tonight so He's probably would have said yeah,

01:10:07

I got this other guy on the West Coast He can fill in for Jason. Yeah, I Think you could do to find job and so but when you looked at each of the guys

01:10:18

They all ended up agreeing that at some level they have to resort back to a priest up argument

01:10:25

Because they start with God existing But that's not how they argue to the atheist the pressing atheist and and I want you to see that's the difference in this

01:10:34

You do not have to understand a lot You you have to know your scripture, but guess what that's a good thing to know

01:10:41

Knowing the scripture studying the scripture. It should be a love of our life It's you know studying science.

01:10:48

You may enjoy it, but if that's not your your thing But for every Christian they should love scripture, but where do we get the answers the the thing?

01:10:56

We're not trying to do is say we know all the answers The thing we're trying to do is say we know someone who does

01:11:03

And we turn to the scripture so Yes question. Well, this is what

01:11:09

God says And they go. Well, I don't believe that tough Like we we don't get to make the decisions, right?

01:11:18

The the God who created everything out of nothing cannot lie

01:11:25

Has told us this okay He's he's all -knowing he's eternal there's nothing that happens he doesn't know about like so there you go

01:11:36

So, I mean it is really that simple of a position is Just to say we start with God exists and he has spoken just go back to scripture

01:11:47

You know, that's really where our answers are gonna lie in in this argument now, we got some comments coming up If Folks want to come in and join.

01:11:58

I Remind you you can share this out if you want If folks want to come in and and discuss anything

01:12:04

We get we I know we get a lot of people that want to put their questions in a chat We prefer if you come in so we can actually dialogue

01:12:11

Makes it better than answering the question then five minutes later answering the other half of the question so just go to projects live comm and Scroll down to the stream yard icon click there to join and then we add you in so we're we're we have a couple of things that are coming up, but Before we get to those you know,

01:12:33

I know that I know that this this Particular one is very exciting to talk about because we're talking about scripture, you know

01:12:42

And you that evidential the classical you might put you to sleep Dan's not gonna put you to sleep

01:12:47

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01:13:50

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01:14:01

He needs to drink more or maybe you want to get for your church If your church wants to get coffee You can go to striving turning org slash coffee get the five pound bag

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You know the the owner's view of politics because he was willing to say he supports

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use promo code sfe Let's get to uh, some of the comments that we did have.

01:16:02

All right, so we were talking about presuppositions uh and chuck who is backstage said this

01:16:12

Presuppositions dictate conclusions. There you go And I think that's a really good way of making the point

01:16:19

It's not that it interrupts our interpretation of scripture. It dictates the conclusion.

01:16:24

Yep I always like everything I said in that in that two or three minutes, uh was yes

01:16:30

I'm up in three words. We should have just brought chuck in earlier Yeah Let him learn right?

01:16:37

Yeah, we will have chuck on uh in a few weeks We're gonna he and I are going to talk about uh his his talk on with godless grandma um

01:16:45

Andrew says and I love people with a good sense of humor, but andrew says prove evolution without darwin

01:16:51

I i'm gonna steal that andrew the next time someone tells me to prove god without the bible I'm gonna say prove prove evolution without darwin now actually you could

01:17:01

Because darwin didn't actually you know like kind of like Dan, you were saying earlier that you know, it's not really van till that created or started presuppositional project.

01:17:13

He really systematized made it known and uh I would say the same thing here.

01:17:18

It's Darwin just made known what others had had taught and he and he systematized it better I would say

01:17:26

What van till did for apologetics was to bring to really help people understand presuppositional apologetics

01:17:35

What bonson did was show how to use presuppositional apologetics such as in debates

01:17:42

And what side 10 bruggenkate did was show how to use it on the streets There you go.

01:17:47

That's a great summary. I like that Yeah Although you know and and you know, it is funny because I had a guy

01:17:55

That was getting into a guy that I Has been heckling. He heckled me for 15 years in new york and A long presentation.

01:18:04

Yeah. Well is no over every every saturday. Okay, so The thing though is funny because he

01:18:12

He heard me he's heard me for many more years for years before sitem bruggenkate

01:18:18

Knew what presuppositional apologetics was But he heard sai and he was like, oh you think you're sitem bruggenkate and i'm like I've been teaching this for longer than sai believed it like You know

01:18:33

I mean I had a professor steve farman In seminary, he's got his phd in in presuppositional apologetics

01:18:42

And he contacted me one day after I was at a seminary He said would you come in and teach a class for us on on presupp and i'm like Dude you have like your phd in this like what am

01:18:52

I gonna teach? and he said Because you do it on the streets. I teach it in class.

01:18:58

They're different and I was like Good point And uh, I gotta look steve has his book out

01:19:05

Unfortunately, I don't have it in front of me. I should have pulled that book I'll look to put to get that book, uh on the list as well when we look at uh, some of the um

01:19:14

Some of the different products let me uh bring up you got a lot of there's some good comments here about you so but faith contending says

01:19:23

God does argue for himself and that is why we Need not prove him

01:19:30

He has made himself known All we do is point this out expose the unbeliever

01:19:38

To the suppression of truth and give the gospel And I don't know about you dan.

01:19:45

I think what what? Faith contending is saying is why I Like presupp so much it's it's not like how much

01:19:53

I know it's It's really just okay. Here's Here's what you're doing.

01:19:59

Here's what the bible says. Yeah And and it's it's the way paul did it

01:20:06

Right, right, I mean is there a better reason Jesus did it that way. Jesus did it paul did it that way and you know

01:20:13

And I hope we have have the time for me to demonstrate that I mean Well, i'm gonna I want to walk you through the book of acts and show you how paul did it

01:20:20

And you'll see something very interesting when you look at all of his apologias Uh fatima who

01:20:27

You know, no, we're gonna have to see fatima was very convinced of classical apologetics last week

01:20:33

Now now maybe we're helping her understand presupp so maybe she'll be a presupp fan and she'll stop there and not go for evidence

01:20:40

But but fatima says I I am understanding the nuances I think she meant better between or between between classical classical apologetics and presupp much better great explanations dan

01:20:54

Well fatima, that's why we brought him in here um Okay, so this is a good point that andrew's making he says

01:21:02

What do you do when an argument When when argument no longer helps you

01:21:08

Well, how do you know when it was first of all, I think we need to define what help is Right.

01:21:14

Uh, do you mean it doesn't persuade the other person? Well, jesus taught for for three years on the earth and not everybody he spoke to was persuaded

01:21:25

Right. Yeah, so we shouldn't think that we're any better than our savior Uh, he hand -picked 12 people 12 men to walk with him one of them betrayed him right, so Don't don't don't fall into the trap of playing the numbers game as oh, yeah

01:21:41

This that I mean that's that gets you into pragmatism, right? I do what works Well, no

01:21:47

What works is not necessarily seen by you Because this is a work the holy spirit does to draw people to himself, right?

01:21:56

So, you know, what do you do when argument no longer helps you stop arguing I would say I mean first of all, you know that kind of begs the question of what help is but uh

01:22:06

You know, I I hope that you know, i'm not out to to argue with people I'll i'll be happy to answer questions and to you know, parry objections and you know help correct misunderstandings about the scripture

01:22:19

Um, but i'm not interested in calling god a liar. Yeah, i'm not interested in putting down his word

01:22:25

I mean think about this right the word of god is living and active and sharper than any two -edged sword You know what our words are by comparison

01:22:34

A four sporks works sporks. It's like quite possibly the most useless utensil ever invented

01:22:40

Try eating a pint of ice cream with a spork. You'll find out how frustrating it is when you get down to the bottom of it

01:22:46

So why would you put down? The word of god the sharp the sharp the sharp sword of the lord and then pick up a spork and say i'm gonna spork you

01:22:54

With my argument forget that If i'm going into battle, I want the sharpest most most effective weapon possible and that's going to be the word of the lord

01:23:03

And if somebody rejects that I I do what jesus did what he said to do if you go into a town and they reject you you shake

01:23:10

The dust off your feet and you go on to the next town. Don't waste your time You you present you present the truth in love.

01:23:18

Of course you present the gospel You make sure there's a clear presentation of the gospel in there and if they reject it, guess what?

01:23:24

The blood their blood is not on your hands, right? Yeah And if you read your bible believe what it says and do it

01:23:34

And I guess i'd just answer the question. What do you do when the argument doesn't help? You just give the gospel

01:23:41

Like, you know, it's like the argument isn't there and we don't and actually someone made the comment

01:23:47

Um, did I save it? Yeah, andrew from australia says we don't have to win an argument always

01:23:55

It's not about the argument. It's about the gospel. Amen uh, so fatima says

01:24:01

Wonderful reading of first peter dan Do not argue or defend

01:24:08

The imperative to sanctify christ as as lord the faithful apologist is never lost

01:24:16

And she also had said Uh, I I think I just experienced great pre -sup

01:24:22

Apologetics with dan seriously. Thank you so now

01:24:28

There's two more comments i'm going to put up and i'm going to say for this person Come on in here, but Michael the canadian atheist says ugh.

01:24:38

I had too much stuff to do. I missed so much of this Pre -sup is fun to dismantle

01:24:46

Um, all I could say michael is i'd like to see a try It didn't go well for you years ago when you were on the show, but if you think you could do better You're welcome to come in.

01:25:00

Um, all right, so Uh, let me ask this I know you wanted to I want to get some of the questions because I do want to ask everyone some of the same questions, but what do you think are the strengths of presuppositional apologetics

01:25:19

The strength is definitely I think universally The strength is it's bible first approach.

01:25:26

We do not argue to scripture We argue from scripture on the basis of scripture Our arguments are saturated with scripture and they they we we aim to terminate them in the gospel

01:25:37

Right, so the gospel should be through and through um But it's that there's also the weakness which is the same weakness that the other approaches have

01:25:47

Is that too much human philosophy gets gets thrown in there? And we start folk we start getting away from hey, you know

01:25:55

The gospel is is should be front and center not preconditions of intelligibility and all the other big

01:26:02

You know 25 cent words that get thrown around Those are fine for debate situations Um, but I I think

01:26:09

I I tend to be a little more Down -to -earth practical, I mean i'm I taught sixth graders for pete's sake for For what almost 20 years sixth grade sixth graders seventh graders eighth graders, uh teaching them, you know biblical theology and apologetics

01:26:24

And so I I don't really have much use for for the big words and all that because you know And frankly most most people don't most adults don't

01:26:32

I found that you know in my in my time of doing this which isn't as long as andrew Because he's much much much much older than I am

01:26:39

Um, yeah, I find that people's questions generally tend to be you know, not too terribly different than the sixth graders questions

01:26:48

And so, you know when it comes down to it, you know when I have when i'm faced with an unbeliever I just keep taking them back to scripture

01:26:55

And when they say well I reject, you know scripture I like what andrew and I were talking about this the other day and he says, you know

01:27:01

Yeah, when I face somebody who's you know got a serious objection to something and he's just like well, you know That's you know, they got an argument.

01:27:07

You're not really sure what to do with it He was like, you know what? Well, that's great. Well, how's that going to help you on judgment day? When you have to stand before god

01:27:14

And he's asking you, you know, why did you reject my son or you know, what are you gonna? What are you going to do with that? Well, how's that argument going to help you on judgment day when you're getting ready to be judged for your for your rebellion against god

01:27:26

It's not going to save you from the flames of hell There's only one thing that can save you from the flames of hell and that's the lord jesus christ

01:27:31

And trusting completely on him for your salvation Because believe me you need it

01:27:37

We all do and and that is I mean that is my So, I don't know if I did

01:27:44

I tell you Where that came up like how that came you may have so I was I was on the boardwalk sharing the gospel with this guy and he's 20 minutes and he's explaining how

01:27:55

Paganism cultic pagan celtic paganism is like the origin of all religions He's going off For 20 minutes and the whole time i'm like, how am

01:28:04

I going to get a word in edgewise here? Like what am I even going to say? I don't even have a clue what he's talking about And I wish

01:28:11

I had it on video because it was so funny because I just went I go after he finally took a breath. I was like, dude

01:28:16

I don't even understand what you're talking about. Are you making this up as you go along and he just left going? Yeah. Yeah So and I just he hit me

01:28:27

I went I just turned around like because Like everyone laughed at that. I'm like, how do I get back to the gospel?

01:28:32

That's all I want I just said okay all that. How's that help you on judgment day? And he goes,

01:28:37

I don't know and That has been just to me such a lifesaver that in any conversation

01:28:43

I get into whenever I get stuck I can go Okay, great. Whatever they say great. How's that help you on judgment day?

01:28:50

Yeah, it gets me right back to the gospel Yeah So the book that I mentioned earlier, uh that I was going to mention was

01:28:59

Uh by mark for him is every believer confident apologetics for the ordinary christian

01:29:05

And i'll have this in the uh notes as well for the um For the podcast so you can get the links.

01:29:14

Um, but yeah, I think this is this is uh, what what what mark does and You know,

01:29:22

I don't know if you've ever read his book I doubt it, but he uh, you would really appreciate him for one thing

01:29:29

He's six foot ten Why would I appreciate another short person? Yeah They're they're everywhere.

01:29:37

Well, at least he doesn't at least you don't have to look down as much Oh But but yeah his his book's good.

01:29:48

So so Why don't you get there's some things you wanted to wrap up before we wrap the show up? So yeah

01:29:54

So, you know, I think it's really important that we not get caught up in kind of a pragmatic approach because you say well, you know

01:30:00

I you know Uh, I know people who were led to christ by evidentialism or by classical approaches

01:30:07

But let's not forget that, you know, you can get right results But still dishonor god in the process

01:30:15

Good point, right? Uh, you can see in that you can see a biblical example of this in exodus 17 6 you know god the people of israel are

01:30:24

Going through the uh going through the desert and they're starting to whine and moan and gripe about not having any water

01:30:29

And moses is like oy vey lord, what are we going to do? And he's like, all right. Here's what you do.

01:30:34

See that rock over there moses I want you to go over there on a I want you to smack that rock with your stick And then water will come out.

01:30:41

So what happened? Well, god says you shall strike the rock and water will come out of it that the people may drink

01:30:47

And moses did so in the sight of the elders of israel. That's all that was said But then in the book of numbers chapter 20

01:30:55

Verses 8 and 11. Here's what it says. I mean they're it's like same story same song different verse, right?

01:31:03

Oh Oy vey lord, they're they're they're on my case again. They want the water. They're just all they're they're gonna kill me

01:31:10

What are we gonna do and god's like? All right. Look remember last time when I had you strike the rock Yeah, I remember that that was fun.

01:31:17

He's okay Well, we're gonna do something different this time moses What we're gonna do this time is I want you to go up to the rock and speak to it

01:31:24

Speak to it like all right So what happened god says speak to the rock before their eyes that it may yield its water

01:31:31

Then moses hot under the tunic, right? Struck the rock not once but twice with his rod and here's the kicker water came forth abundantly

01:31:43

And the congregation and their beasts drank In exodus chapter 17 moses obeyed god and it doesn't say anything about water coming out

01:31:52

Now we can infer that it did because the people stopped grumbling and moses was still alive after the episode episode, right?

01:31:58

But in numbers god goes out of his way to record in his word for us the disobedience of moses but yet water came forth not just Came forth, but it came forth abundantly.

01:32:12

So it's like wow So I guess we should learn from that that it doesn't matter how you do things

01:32:17

So as long as we get the right results god is happy, right? Well, no, of course not because if we read numbers 20 verse 12 the very next verse

01:32:25

The lord said to moses and aaron Because you have not believed me to treat me as holy in the sight of the sons of israel

01:32:33

Therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them god God said moses you have dishonored me in front of the people

01:32:43

Right. So this is biblical history. And what is the purpose of history? You know what happens to people who are uh, who do not learn from the past?

01:32:52

What's the what's the old adage? Uh, you know learn from the past are going to repeat it right

01:32:59

That's that's the world's answer. I'm going to give you a biblical answer first corinthians chapter 10 verses 6 and 11

01:33:05

Now these things happened and these things that paul is talking about here is all that stuff that happened in the desert

01:33:11

Right with all the water and the grumbling and the complaining and all that was recorded Says these things happened as examples for us so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them verse 11

01:33:22

Now these things happened to them as an example and they were written for our instruction upon whom the end of the ages have

01:33:30

Come All right So all that stuff that was recorded in the old testament all those dusty old books with the funny names in them

01:33:36

All that's there for our examples and for our instruction. We need to learn from other people's mistakes

01:33:43

So this this is the purpose of biblical history So the only history book we have in the new testament is the book of acts right

01:33:52

So paul says in first corinthians 11 1 be imitators of me just as I also am of christ

01:34:00

So if we're going to do as paul says He commands us to imitate me as I imitate christ

01:34:06

Where might we go to find out how paul did things? Well, we would of course go to the book of acts

01:34:12

Right. So this is where you know, the acts of the apostles are recorded. Hence the name But before we get to paul,

01:34:19

I want to make a quick stop in acts chapter 7 with stephen Stephen was the the first martyr We're going to look at his apologia.

01:34:27

So the word apologia does not appear in acts chapter 7 But this is very much a defense right because stephen was accused of speaking against the temple and the law

01:34:36

And the the leadership there is like well, how do you answer stephen? What's what's your you know? What's your excuse and they say to him in chapter 7 verse 1?

01:34:45

um, the uh, the high priest asked him for a defense and in verses 2 through 50

01:34:51

Stephen Just kind of blew off all the charges and what did he do? He gave a history of the jewish people verse 2 through verse 50 and verses 51 and 50 through 53

01:35:03

He made it personal by calling out their sin and he you know, he did not take apologetics, you know or evangelism 101

01:35:11

At the local church and he forgot the 11th commandment thou shalt be nice because in verse 52 He says you murdered the christ

01:35:18

Right put his finger right in their face and say you murdered the christ And of course, you know, they all bought him a one -way ticket to the bottom of a rock pile as a result

01:35:26

But that was the very first Apologetic that we see in the book of acts and with us with stephen

01:35:32

Let me get to acts chapter 17. We love to make a lot of about acts chapter 17 because you say well, um, you know paul started where the where the uh

01:35:42

This is a great example of classical apologetics because paul started where the athenians were and he led them to christ not so fast

01:35:50

Verses 17 and 18. We see that paul was reasoning in the synagogue Which means he was talking to jews and converts to judaism

01:35:58

And in the marketplace with anybody who happened to be there Right, so in the in the synagogue, he always went to the synagogues and then here he went to the marketplace

01:36:07

And he's talking with anybody who will listen so they didn't not necessarily jews garden variety pagans, right?

01:36:13

And he was what was he doing there? In both cases, he was preaching jesus and the resurrection to the epicureans even even to the epicureans and the stoics in verse 18

01:36:25

Epicureans and stoics were largely were mostly deistic in their in their beliefs, right? So they were not bible believing christians um

01:36:33

So he was preaching jesus and the resurrection to these folks He didn't try to prove the veracity of the bible

01:36:39

He didn't try to prove the existence of the god of abraham isaac and jacob. He went right for the resurrection

01:36:45

He preached the gospel In verses 23 through 29 He quoted or alluded this is his sermon on mars hill.

01:36:52

He quoted or alluded to at least 14 discreet old testament passages and even kind of paraphrased jesus once So he was so what and in verse 30 he makes it personal he calls them to repentance

01:37:08

And in verse 31, he talks about judgment and the resurrection and that's why they started scoffing at him because again

01:37:15

He brought up the resurrection so paul's paul If you look at what paul is doing here paul's walking around athens and he's very disturbed at what he sees

01:37:23

And he walks around he's like, you know what? There's an altar to an unknown god and remember this paul is the same guy who wrote romans chapter one

01:37:33

Who says that everybody knows that god exists paul's walking around athens and he sees this altar to an unknown god

01:37:41

And he's like bingo right there. There's your there's proof that they know that god exists

01:37:46

They got an altar to him think about this right think about how crazy this is The the greeks had gods upon gods they had truckloads of gods

01:37:56

But yet they still felt the need to make an altar to the god. They didn't know

01:38:03

Because romans chapter one everybody knows that the god exists They knew it.

01:38:09

They just didn't know who he was. So what you worship in ignorance paul says I now proclaim to you

01:38:15

So what was paul doing paul was starting? His his his entire sermon was saturated with scripture.

01:38:22

It was based upon scripture. It was saturated with scripture He didn't say Thus it says in the book of joel thus it says in amos thus it says in isaiah

01:38:30

But those verses are in there if you look carefully Acts chapter 22 when paul was before the jews here the word apologia is used

01:38:39

So what did paul's apologia look like? Well in verses 1 through 16, he related his road to damascus story

01:38:46

You and I would call that our testimony how we came to know christ or how christ changed us

01:38:51

In verses 7 and 18. He told of direct revelation from jesus in verse 16.

01:38:57

He made an indirect call to action Be baptized repent and be baptized and then verse 21.

01:39:03

He said I was commanded to go to the gentiles So again, we we've got in here. He told a direct revelation from from jesus the road to damascus story

01:39:11

He's sharing his testimony. He's not proving that trying to prove that god exists He's not trying to prove the bible is true.

01:39:17

None of that. He just went right for the gospel Acts chapter 23 when he was before the sanhedrin

01:39:23

Paul didn't really do much of anything except mention the resurrection He basically did a one

01:39:30

A one sentence sermon and the whole place just blew up and just about you know Just about exploded the whole place, but he got the resurrection in there

01:39:38

The resurrection was front of jesus christ Well resurrection in general in this case was was front and center acts chapter 24 paul's before this is paul's apologia

01:39:48

Again, the word is used there before governor felix. What did his apologia look like in acts chapter 24?

01:39:54

Well in verse 11, he says I worship god in verse 14 I believe the scriptures sound a little bit like what we've been talking about tonight

01:40:02

My hope is in the resurrection He says in verse 15 in verse 24, he spoke of faith in jesus christ and in verse 25

01:40:09

He made it personal. He discussed righteousness self -control and judgment to come When was the last time you heard a popular apologist talk about righteousness judgment and and and the judgment to come?

01:40:21

When was the last time you saw an apologist call people to repentance and faith in christ?

01:40:27

i'm embarrassed to say That I certainly didn't during the first 15 years or so of my ministry much to my embarrassment

01:40:36

Okay, acts 25 paul's apologia before governor festus verse 8 He proclaimed faithfulness to the scriptures in verse 19.

01:40:44

He asserted jesus resurrection That was it acts chapter 26 paul's apologia before king agrippa

01:40:51

In verses 6 through 8 he started with the resurrection Didn't lead up to it.

01:40:57

Didn't try to Pre -evangelize anybody he went right for the juggler talked about the resurrection

01:41:02

Verses 9 through 18 told his road to damascus story his his testimony verses 22 and 23

01:41:08

He proclaimed the sufferings and resurrection of christ and in chapter in verses 27 through 29

01:41:13

He called king agrippa to belief again made it personal called him to belief and then finally paul's last apologia

01:41:21

Well, he was talking when he was in rome What did he do when he was in rome in second timothy 4 16 and 17, what did paul do he preached the gospel

01:41:31

He was faithful to make the proclamation, which is the gospel that he took everywhere

01:41:36

So that is how paul did it paul says follow me as I follow christ And so whenever when people want to argue about method, you know apologetics methodology

01:41:46

I'm, just like okay fine show me in the bible where somebody reasoned from the script reasoned

01:41:52

From you know from from no god or reasoned somebody to the scriptures rather than presupposing the scriptures

01:41:58

Show me where somebody made a a really solid unequivocal argument from evidence for the existence of god

01:42:05

Right, you're not going to find it What you will find when you look at the way paul did it the way peter did it and way the way the way the way

01:42:11

That jesus did it indeed Is that he appealed to scripture? Because that is our ultimate

01:42:18

Authority So I I would think that you know when we're given a command in scripture Do what

01:42:24

I do We need to look at what the man did and followed And do what and do what he says right because again, jesus says why do you call me lord and you don't do what

01:42:34

I say? Yeah Well, I you know, I want to point out folks

01:42:40

And and we have two more of these apologetic styles to go through But i'm going to challenge you

01:42:47

How much scripture did you hear tonight And compare that to how much scripture you hear on the on the other views you know now as we said earlier,

01:42:59

I mean there is a Philosophical argument that's made for presuppositional apologetics and that's not what dan and I are arguing for There is and so yeah,

01:43:08

I get that you could get into the philosophy We're not doing that You you can't really do that with evident like with with the evidential view or classical view you have to get into the the sciences and the philosophy

01:43:22

But you don't have to with presupp it's scripture that's that's what we're appealing to scripture god exists he has spoken and I just I want you to think through which argument sounds like it would be more biblical

01:43:39

Probably the one that's Using more scripture, you know uh Fatima says says this

01:43:45

She's probably she she probably if we give an award for the person who comments the most during the live show.

01:43:51

It would be fatima I've seen that in my short time here and and it's probably because it's only

01:43:57

You know 944 in the morning there. So she's wide awake and anxious

01:44:02

It's hyping away where the rest of us here in america are sleeping and are drowsy, right? So fatima says that she says

01:44:08

I thought the weakness of presupp Was that it starts with the bible which turns people off?

01:44:15

But that weakness is its strength And perhaps other apologetics cater too much to what doesn't turn off remember fatima

01:44:26

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to those of us who are being saved It is the power of god in romans 1 16.

01:44:34

It says I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of god unto salvation again

01:44:41

Is it are we going to choose swords or we're going to choose sporks? right It's it's it's your your choice.

01:44:48

I mean you're gonna have to stand before god and uh and answer for your decision on that one So and remember here's here's something else that's important to remember

01:44:57

Um, you know, we don't it's not our job to convince convict or to convert anybody.

01:45:03

That's right That's the holy spirit's job. Amen, right? So the fact that somebody the fact that you know, i've heard this before, you know, you know

01:45:10

People don't they don't accept the bible so we can't start with the bible poppycock Jesus started with the bible.

01:45:16

Jesus talked to all kinds of non -believers and he started with the bible paul Argued from scripture didn't necessarily quote chapter and verse but boy was it in there?

01:45:24

Yeah, you can't turn off a light that's already off These people are dead in their trespasses and sins.

01:45:34

They have no relationship with the god. There was none righteous. No, not one There is none who seeks after god

01:45:39

So you can't turn off somebody who's already off so we need to disabuse ourselves of this notion and I hope you don't take my my

01:45:48

My intensity is is frustration with you fatima I'm frustrated because I I I thought that way for so many years and i'm frustrated that so many people taught me that And it frankly it angers me

01:46:00

Since maybe I need to repent since she said amen to what you're saying. I don't think she was she she did say ha ha

01:46:06

Thanks for the award She's got to go to bible study in 50 minutes So let me let me throw this up that she said because this is a good reminder for me is she said, uh,

01:46:13

I'm following striving fraternity school of biblical hermeneutics videos here on youtube. Y 'all should try it

01:46:20

Thank you, because I actually don't promote that enough but We have an academy that you can watch free on youtube

01:46:27

Uh striving just go striving for academy .org or if you want go striving for attorney .org

01:46:32

and click on the academy We have all the classes linked there. We're in a playlist

01:46:37

You can get the syllabuses that those cost money but That's all available.

01:46:43

We put that out there so you could study and and and learn the bible um So, uh, see she says, uh,

01:46:51

I love reading and studying the bible more than any other book of science or philosophy So precept makes a lot of sense for me.

01:46:58

Thanks for a great program So well, we're glad for that and and let me put this one up michael.

01:47:05

The canadian atheist says Striving fraternity. Hey i've been listening While sadly still having to work a bit

01:47:14

We should set up a chat i'm intrigued by the commentary dan seems more civil than most

01:47:21

Well, you know if you want we can set up a discussion with you and dan one one thursday night that that would work um with both of your schedules and so Yeah, I mean,

01:47:32

I think that uh, you know and for you dan michael is a very reasonable uh professing atheist uh

01:47:42

Not for those who listen to this show often not he's not as reasonable as uh bill cluck who was on here and I and I should say

01:47:53

He's reasonable when he's on our show. I should say that because when when on his show He's a little bit

01:48:00

An image to uphold, huh? Well the language changed. No when I was on his show, he he respected me and watched his language uh, but when i'm not when there's not a christian on there, it's is

01:48:12

It's a little different just saying but it we did we have had good discussions with him uh in the past years years ago, so Anything else then you want to mention about presup?

01:48:24

Yeah, i'd like to give people some uh, some some resource. Are we at the at the book recommendation time? Is that what you're is that what you're hinting at?

01:48:31

Let's see. I'm i've been married for a number of years now. I'm learning to read hints um

01:48:38

Wasn't so good at that when I was first married So the you're saying that I remind you of your wife,

01:48:44

I don't think that's No, no, her beard isn't nearly as cool as yours um

01:48:52

Anyway All right. So there are a few book recommendations. I like to make the first book

01:48:58

I recommend but with a caveat So this uh, greg cokel's book tactics

01:49:04

Is a book that I found That I used to be scared of talking to atheists and jehovah's witnesses but after reading this book, uh

01:49:14

I've read it twice now because he's now have a 10th anniversary 10th anniversary edition That book helped me to understand how to negotiate conversations where you're dealing with people who don't

01:49:25

Who disagree with you? And a matter of fact, I found a tremendous value in in this book in in the software engineering world

01:49:33

Uh talking with more junior developers Who think they knew knew more than me and I said, okay

01:49:38

Well, I just kind of turned it around to them and I would use some of the things that I learned in greg cokel's book And I would say okay you explain to me why you think your your approach to solving this problem is better And it almost invariably

01:49:49

The the junior developer would come back and say oh, yeah, you know what you're absolutely right because you know Sometimes we just have to articulate our position to realize that.

01:49:57

Oh, yeah, there's some holes there I didn't know that the caveat I give with this book. Yeah Is that greg cokel doesn't really feel

01:50:06

And I hope I don't overstate this so correct me andrew because you and I have talked about this a little bit Um, he doesn't really his goal is not to get people to the gospel.

01:50:15

It's not really a gospel centered approach It's more of a thinking approach. He wants to put a stone in your shoe and make you walk around or not so in other words give you things to think about that the holy spirit could then use to uh to hopefully, you know prick your conscience and and And uh lead you to faith so if you want to add a little bit of color i'll grab it

01:50:32

He wouldn't be offended by that. I mean he says he you know, he and i've talked about that plenty of times

01:50:37

Uh, that is his goal. He's more of a philosopher Um, which is why he likes the classical approach but he is someone who

01:50:46

He wants to get people thinking and so he he'll he says all the time on his radio program He wants to put a stone in your shoe.

01:50:52

Yeah, that's his goal and I and I like greg cokel I've i've eaten his steamed broccoli and he's eaten my son's fries.

01:50:59

So I have nothing against the man I've gotten tremendous, you know, i've learned a lot from him. I just I think he he stopped short of the of the finished

01:51:08

Yeah, no, I mean it's nothing. I mean, he's a brother in christ to me Look, i've i've slept in his house. I you know, and he like, you know, did he know that?

01:51:15

Huh? Did he know that? Yes. Okay Stalker Yeah, he was even home actually

01:51:24

Actually, I I was even uh there's one time where I I was in the house and uh,

01:51:31

I babysat the two girls while they were little good They were little girls back then So I hung out with uh with them.

01:51:37

Oh, wow, because they had event but yeah Go ahead but the thing is he he wouldn't disagree with that and I think the power of that book and I when

01:51:47

I do my evangelism training ambassador evangelism I usually have copies of his book for resale.

01:51:53

And the reason I do is because That book is a great book in learning how to ask good questions

01:52:00

If you as you said navigate the conversation that book is excellent for that But he's not going to try to drive it to the gospel as much as get you learning how to navigate the conversation

01:52:14

Which leads us to our next book? I think this guy picks up where greg coco leaves off and I think he does a fantastic job.

01:52:23

This is j lucas's book Ask them why? Uh, this is a tremendous. This is this supplanted tactics is my favorite apologetics book for a time

01:52:33

So get this book j lucas ask them why? Uh, it's the same kind of the same gist of tactics, but it's it's it's gospel it starts

01:52:42

Starts with has in the middle of and is the the the terminus is the gospel um another book

01:52:51

Excuse me That I recommend I I need to reread this one because when

01:52:58

I originally read this book I was a little disappointed in it because I was expecting bonson and frame and van till Because that's what

01:53:05

I was. I was first starting to learn about it. This is vody bachem's book expository apologetics answering objections with the power of the word so, um

01:53:17

But after having you know gone through a few more books and learned more Uh, I I think

01:53:23

I really need to reread this book because I think it's basically saying a lot of what i've i've said tonight So expository apologetics by vody bachem bachem.

01:53:31

Sorry um This book is my i'll save my favorite for last

01:53:36

Um reasons we believe by nathan buesnitz, let's see

01:53:42

There we go reasons we believe by nathan buesnitz Uh 50 lines of evidence that confirm the christian faith.

01:53:49

Now. Wait a minute. Dan. Is he an evidentialist? No, interestingly or not. Um This book

01:53:55

I I I was expecting not to like it, but I wound up Liking it a lot. Matter of fact. I wrote a quick book review on my blog uh sevenfootapologist .com

01:54:05

Blog uh And when did I write that because unfortunately, I don't have a search feature

01:54:11

I wrote it on september 3rd 2022. I wrote a quick book review of that. So I I really like that book

01:54:19

Excuse me, and I need to reread it. Excuse me And while you're taking a drink, uh, the one that i'll put on there is

01:54:26

I mentioned earlier Is this book every believer confident by mark forham? Uh, this is a very good.

01:54:33

It's a short read. It's it's uh, let's see About it's less than 200 pages uh, very well thought through very

01:54:42

This is he did his phd in presuppositional apologetics, but Really writes at a very easy to understand level and makes it very easy to uh comprehend

01:54:55

Not all the philosophical argument but But an easy a good read

01:55:02

What's next My next book would be only belief by paul f taylor and there's a forward written by cy ten brook and kate

01:55:11

So this is another really good really good book. It's uh, really easy to read. It's pretty thin Uh, it's it's called the subtitle is the easy guide to presuppositional apologetics

01:55:22

And what one thing cy says about paul taylor and the reason why I bought this book Is he says cy says that he thinks that paul taylor does a better job than any just about anybody

01:55:32

Of using evidences in a presuppositional fashion. So using evidence Uh, but but honoring god in the process of it.

01:55:40

Yeah The next book comes from my all -time favorite christian apologetics author.

01:55:46

Um, Dr. Jason lyle. I have nearly every single title he's ever written.

01:55:52

I have it in my library This is the ultimate proof of creation uh resolving the origins of Resolving the origins debate now

01:56:03

Yes, this has this talks about The creation, you know creation versus evolution debate the debate about origins, but this is also a great primer on logic

01:56:13

So if you've never studied formal logic, uh, you know logical fallacies and all that this is a really fantastic easy to digest

01:56:20

Uh introduction to logic I I recommend it highly And jason lyle is just a fantastic author.

01:56:26

I can't say enough great things about his his writing Um, there isn't a book that i've ever read of his that I didn't like So I I can say that I used to have every book he ever wrote

01:56:38

That he wrote more No, no, I just sold them because i'm selling my library Okay, so here's my number one favorite

01:56:47

You know, let me know but There's only one book of his that I kept. Let's see. Do I keep two?

01:56:52

I'm, just trying to look I kept his book on fractals That's pretty cool. I've got that one. Yeah, you didn't want to sell that one

01:56:58

Although I didn't I I bought the original the the first the first version of it uh before I think uh

01:57:04

Uh, it was then released as a hardcover and they made some changes to it. I wish I had and it had the cd

01:57:11

Yeah I have to buy another copy So his book on fractals is just so fun for an engineer,

01:57:18

I guess but I I sat there for I think it was like One night I started at like eight o 'clock and it was after midnight maybe one in the morning when

01:57:27

I realized what time it was as i'm just like zooming in and zooming in and zooming into different fractals and It was a blast all right this is now my

01:57:38

The number one book in my apologetics library It has supplanted tactics.

01:57:43

It has supplanted ask them why? Uh, it has even supplanted, uh, many of jason lyle's book.

01:57:49

It's biblical apologetics by clifford mcmanus It's advancing and defending the gospel of christ.

01:57:57

So there's the cover Yeah, and that's a very good book when I when

01:58:03

I read this, you know When I was when I was reading bonson and frame i'm like, okay Yeah, we're getting closer.

01:58:08

I feel like i'm getting close to the finish line Like, you know a lot of the things they said really resonated with me But then the the philosophy just really kind of bogged me down.

01:58:16

I couldn't really put my finger on it Once I got this book and I read it I understood why

01:58:21

I was bothered Uh, and it this uh, it looks pretty intimidating. It's a fairly thick book but it's got

01:58:29

Rather large print so i've got all you can tell how much I either like or dislike a book

01:58:34

By the amount of ink that I put on pages And this book has all kinds of things that i've underlined and drawn boxes around and starred

01:58:43

And it was it's kind of scary. Um When I when I when I started was reading through it in preparation for this presentation tonight

01:58:51

Uh, I was rereading through it and I was like wow I I it's it's it was

01:58:56

I had forgotten how much that book had influenced My approach to apologetics and it is it's

01:59:03

I cannot recommend it highly enough. It is it is such a great great book um, and it echoes, you know, it does a better job than of than than what i've done tonight of you know,

01:59:14

Putting forth this position of like yeah, keep your sword. Don't put it down and this is why

01:59:20

Right and talk about all the stuff about the context of first peter and all that stuff So folks, uh,

01:59:26

I hope this is helpful for giving a view of the of the Presuppositional apologetics view that that both dan and I hold to Uh, I also want to encourage you if you would like to have dan come out to your church say hey

01:59:40

This has been some pretty good stuff. He actually talks on more than just this Uh a lot of his stuff he gets into creation science

01:59:48

Things like that has an excellent talk on on starlight theory so, uh the distance starlight problem, so Abortion now.

01:59:59

Yeah. Yeah ask him. He loves to preach on on his his message on abortion Actually, I will say

02:00:07

If you want him, he's got a talk on abortion. That was probably the best Talk that i've ever seen on abortion the way it was laid out the way that it was presented

02:00:17

So if if you want to have him come as a speaker At your church you could contact us at striving for eternity just contact speaker

02:00:26

At striving for eternity .com. Now that one's a dot com But striving for eternity .com

02:00:33

that will get to us or you just go to striving for turning .org and you'll be able to Fill out the form to contact us and they actually right from the website

02:00:44

You can schedule a speaker from there as well. And you can see the different things he can talk about He doesn't look as tall in his picture there, but you know, he's pretty tall but he he wanted a picture where he was walking into a into the, you know, the back of his head as he walks into a you know a

02:01:06

Tunnel a low hanging tunnel. Yeah so Uh, but kathy is saying, uh, yes.

02:01:13

Thank you. Andrew and dan very helpful and good show I'm glad i'm glad it's blessed you for those of you who have gotten something good out of this.

02:01:21

Uh, Just know that it was it's that's that's the holy spirit working not not me. Yeah, so next week

02:01:28

We will have on daniel mcadams who will give a case for evidential apologetics and daniel is got a background as a

02:01:37

Before he became a christian as a ghost hunter. He just did a debate with someone the guy said that some

02:01:43

Some ghosts are human spirits and dan takes the position. No, they're all demonic

02:01:50

Uh, so we may even get into that that could be some fun discussion as well Uh, I will not be here on the 24th

02:01:59

But I will see with drew I know drew has not been here for a while because he has been trying to get his new business ramped up and so i'll see if drew is going to do a show and if not, uh,

02:02:09

I will I will see if maybe dan or Dan and or aaron would be able to make it in Uh, and i'm going to mention aaron in a moment

02:02:18

Uh, something really important there the end of the month on the 31st. We will have uh,

02:02:23

I will be traveling but i'm going to still try to make it in for uh Donald williams to be doing the cumulative approach so we'll have that and that one will be

02:02:34

I'll have the get my guest host on that one as well that we had for the the first one adam whose program we were on Uh, I mentioned

02:02:43

I mentioned aaron. I want to let you guys know Aaron brewster one of our other speakers is striving fraternity.

02:02:49

He has not been here for several weeks He hasn't been here because he was

02:02:56

He basically lives in north carolina. His house was greatly affected by the uh, the storm the hurricane helen

02:03:03

He has you know for folks who don't know too much. He lives on a very meager income he is uh

02:03:11

Basically, he is living with his parents uh and his So he they live in the parents house and in an rv that is parked in the parents house or I should say he used to uh, the rv

02:03:24

I think is pretty much toast water got all the way up to the Steering wheel and if you know anything about rvs, they're not meant to be in water.

02:03:32

They don't keep the water out um, so They have to get it checked but it's but that's where his son was living that's probably gone

02:03:40

So everything that is all of his son's stuff is probably gone Uh, their their storage under the house was gone water came all the way up to the first floor uh, they lost their

02:03:52

Their hvac their heat their air conditioning. All that is has got to be replaced their cars

02:03:58

I know at least one car. They've already was already determined. It can't be It can't do anything with it.

02:04:04

It's total the other two they think they might be able to do some repairs Uh, but a lot of times what happens is you get started with that and find out.

02:04:12

Oh, no, you can't so we have set up a give send go campaign for him because both both two of our speakers

02:04:21

Aaron and anthony were both affected by a storm anthony though lost power for several hours, but is not having any financial needs uh aaron, however

02:04:31

Did not have much to start with. Uh, he is to Do the ministry he does full -time.

02:04:38

He doesn't have any Uh, he outside of striving attorney. He has another he has his non -profit ministry evermind ministries and You know, he is it's not producing, you know

02:04:50

He's not raising enough money to to really do much to feed his family and pay for housing. That's why he lives with his parents

02:04:56

I say that to say he didn't have much and what little he had he's now lost so if you can give

02:05:04

Any amount we have a campaign. It's at give send go dot com

02:05:14

Slash sfe i'm going to put that here in the chat for those live Um that you would be able to go to it, but it is give send go dot com

02:05:26

Slash sfe and if you could go and give any amount that would be greatly appreciated

02:05:32

We're trying to raise enough to cover all of his expenses uh replace the cars the rv the

02:05:39

Heat and air conditioning the food. He has no they don't have flood insurance.

02:05:45

So none of this is is Uh being given and you know, I mean, hey fema said they'll give

02:05:50

Seven hundred and fifty dollars what a whopping thing, you know, he's he's he's out several thousand

02:05:56

They're going to give 750 all he's got to do is get on the internet and fill out a form before time runs out

02:06:03

Yeah, that's hard to do when you don't have electricity And your laptop's underwater

02:06:10

But hey, that's the way the government is saying they're saying but we we offered this money Yeah, they also don't have any money because they gave it all to illegals

02:06:17

Coming in so if you guys could give any amount, um to help out the roosters uh, you know and he has

02:06:27

You know, he had to leave his family is like, you know Trying to still dig out underwater and he had to leave because he had to go speak at the acbc conference and You know that had been scheduled for a long time

02:06:40

So he had to find his find a way out of town uh, and then get over to to To texas

02:06:47

I think it was so If you guys could be praying for them That would be very good. If you guys could go to give send go .com

02:06:53

slash sfe and and donate that would be wonderful So no matter how small of an amount, you know, we had some give five dollars that adds up if everyone

02:07:04

If everyone in this audience gave five dollars That's a tenth of what we're trying to raise

02:07:10

Easily a tenth of what we're trying to raise and maybe more uh, so I really want to encourage you guys to give as much as you could it would be a great help

02:07:21

So with that dan, thank you for coming in Thank you for having me. Appreciate it I've been very helpful for many as you saw from the comments and uh