An Argument for Presuppositional Apologetics

Presuppositional Apologetics and the Host’s Introduction

Mr. Smalley, do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you. We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions that you have about God in the Bible.

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We are here tonight to discuss the approach of apologetics called presuppositional apologetics. I'm just gonna give the you know, we did this last week. We talked about classical. We're not really doing it in the best order.

We're doing it in the order in which speakers were available. But I'm just gonna say if I had an order this would have been the last so you got all the wrong Ways to do it you end on the right way. Oops.

I'm sorry. Dan. Did I did I just accidentally give away my view? Yep, so I think I did. So let me welcome in our our guest speaker tonight. One of the speakers at striving for eternity Mr. Dan craft. How are you, sir?

Yes, so yeah, this is a view that both you and I hold to is presuppositional apologetics if I if I could have an order I probably would have done it as Evidential classical the cumulative and then presuppositional but The gentleman who's gonna do cumulative can only only had one week and that's the last one available and so and and last week Matt only had that week, so We fit in the other two now.

I Will say you're gonna be followed up next week By a guy who hunted for ghosts for a living. I'm just saying. And we're gonna talk about evidences. It'll be a fun show for sure. So Dan for folks who who may not know you I mean I introduce you as one of our speakers.

That's not all that you do though. Let folks know a little bit about yourself and You know, maybe some novel things people would be thrilled to know about you well.

Dan Kreft’s Background, Conversion, and Work in Apologetics

Let's see. Where do I start? I was born at a very early age. I knew he was going there. Yeah. You know, I'm a dad so you got to start with the dad the dad like jokes first God called me to See, let's start with the really important stuff.

So I came to faith in Christ at about 10 or 11 years old. My parents led me to the Lord. I Had basically my my even my earliest memories were of growing up in a church. My mom was I think nominally Lutheran.

My dad was an unbeliever when they first got married. When we when I was about 10 or 11 years old We moved from Illinois to South Florida and wound up attending Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church with the late. Dr. Dame D. James Kennedy and As my mom tells the story as my parents were in the new in the new members class.

My dad's like wait a minute. I am we're getting ready to be a member of this church, and I'm not even a Christian. So I should fix that. So he came to faith in Christ or so we think and There's a long story there and so not long after that, you know all three of us piled on to the onto the lazy boy and You know next thing, you know, I'm I'm getting my get out of jail free card.

Get out of hell free card because you know when your parents ask you you don't want to go to hell. Do you? It's like hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a fun time. So no, so let's let's go ahead and get that taken care of.

So, you know I said the said the prayer and did the thing and then I went back to doing whatever it was I was doing before I Got my eternal destination sorted out. So after after high school I wound up Running away from the Lord for seven years from so from 1990 to 1997 I was in you never would have guessed that I was a Christian.

I was I was deep undercover. As a matter of fact, I had some a non-believing friend. Too much to my embarrassment told me to watch my mouth this guy cussed like a sailor. So that's that's that's rather convicting when your unsaved friend tells you to watch your mouth, right?

So anyway, fast-forward to the summer of 1997 I was in a relationship that I shouldn't have been in and which crashed and burned very very badly and I wound up bearing my face in my pillow and just crying out to God to ask him to forgive me of my my seven years of rebellion against him and to To to truly be Lord of my life the way I put it back then as I would say, you know Lord take the keys to the car of my life because I can't drive and So so I've been walking by God's grace with him since 1990 summer of 1997.

All this happened while I was in in camp in NBA rookie camp with the the Houston Rockets. I did play I was in the minor leagues in in the States played over in Europe and Wound up going to five NBA rookie camps before it was all said and done.

It's a play against any like well-known basketball players.

Yeah, quite a few of course the most notable being on my 25th birthday. I got to play against Shaquille O 'Neal and To make a long story that I've already written up on my personal website. Very short he tried to dunk on me about a half dozen times and he never got it through the hoop.

Which obviously, you know when some unknown white kid just kind of walks in off the streets of Houston Into the Houston Rockets practice facility and says hey, you know here Let's play ball and I wound up, you know blocking the shots of the league's best center Who outweighed me by about 80 pounds and out earned me by about 10 .4 million dollars that year.

Yeah that that got some attention so yeah, so eventually God led me to the Pacific Northwest where I eventually got married and Discovered this thing called apologetics via a radio broadcast and I got really into it and shortly after that God called me to start teaching and wound up taking the Writing co-authoring co-authoring my own Sunday school curriculum for sixth graders.

Taught that for seven years and then and then God kicked over my apple cart and said we need to change some things so wound up changing my entire approach to teaching and Eventually took all my lessons that I taught that I taught and put them into a book called Jesus is not the answer to every Sunday school question and Then so in this in the what was it the Late 2018 I guess or January 2019.

I think is when the book got published and then I started speaking Conferences and whatnot and then of course the corona apocalypse put everything on hold. So, I don't know. I think it's probably a good enough introduction for now.

We'll get into more more details later, I guess.

Yeah, so for folks who are listening in audio that might want to get that article you refer to the website that for that is seven spelled out seven foot Apologist. Calm seven foot apologist. I can't imagine where the seven foot comes from.

Well, let's just say that the I have eight foot ceilings and I I can touch it but just by just by going like that.

So he's putting his thumb on his on his top of his head and his pinky up and.

That's 12 inches from from there to there. No. No, it's really funny. Do you have your cell phone handy? Yeah, I do.

Yeah, just folks could watch to see. It is big huge guy and he's got the smallest possible phone. And so in his head, you know, he he fits his entire phone like yeah, I can't even I can't even do what you're doing by palming the.

Well, it's only an iPhone se so it's it's not a particularly large phone. To begin with because I'm because I'm cheap you know, if I if I really wanted to spend the extra money for the You know for the unlocked, you know Uber, you know surfboard and I would probably get one slightly larger, but not quite the size of an iPad.

So before we get into our topic, we get some really important questions coming up already. But here's one. You're really seven foot. Well.

In my youth I was I was seven feet actually if you want the longer story. Which you probably don't but I'm gonna give it to you. Anyway, that's what I do. I was when I was in junior college. I was telling people.

Hey, they say how tall are you? I say I'm six eleven and seven eights. Because I'm an engineer and I'm into precision right and people eventually just started there people started telling me Dan I think we can give you the eighth of an inch.

So I'm like, okay so fine. So I started because saying I'm seven feet tall. Now I'm you know, I'm just over 50 years old and of course, you know. The ravages of time and playing basketball and back injuries and everything else.

What I like to say now is when I roll out of bed in the morning I'm seven feet tall and I just get progressively shorter as the day goes on. So I Up too late. I might wind up being you know, five two five three.

So I had a friend.

He didn't he didn't want to admit. He was seven foot. So he said he was six foot twelve inches.

No, I hadn't. I had an episode like that in the in downtown Seattle I was walking to work one day. I used to work at Amazon as a software engineer. And this guy comes up to me. He says hey, man, I know who you is.

Use Jack Sigma and I said no I'm not Jack Sigma. Yes, you is. I seen you plays. How tall is you and I said, well, I'm five foot twenty four. You're right, you're right, I'm actually 611. Sorry, I'm actually 612 and he says man.

I would have thought you was at least seven feet tall. Have it all in life, I guess. Yeah, that's the point is when you mentioned that they just don't they don't put the connection. No, it's the public school system I'm sure.

I'm sure.

Adama is saying that Dan is proof that Nephilim are real. Can you boot her off. I would never do that. All right, so some comments that came in. Let's see. These are more toward me. Melissa is saying beard looks great Andrew.

Tom Shepard is saying are you going fully reformed with that beard?

I'm. Shepard's got himself a pretty massive mane in his. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jesse says love the beard brother and then Claude is saying when did you grow the beard Andrew? Well, you know, I have the beard for a very simple reason. I've had it a long-standing Agreement with my bride that I like her with long hair.

I think she looks better that way. She thinks she looks better with short hair and she thinks short hair is easier to maintain. I think I look better with a beard. I think having a beard is less as easier to maintain.

She thinks I look better without one, so we've had a mutual agreement. She keeps her hair long. I don't have a beard or I just keep a very very short beard. But since since she left me a week ago now, I'm growing my beard and well, she did leave me.

I just she left me for a younger man he's about two and. She she left me for my grandson and she is she is out taking care of my grandson for for about four weeks. Which means I get to let the beard grow in.

She knew that right away. She was like We were FaceTime issues. No, you're not. I said you're not here. You don't have to look at it. So it gives me the advantage of seeing how white it is. And when I do go out there and see my grandson I'm gonna get some pics with my grandson and I with my beard so as he gets older.

He can know what his grandfather looked like when he looked really old so. So Jesse also said. He got a donate to Kamala ad before the show. Jesse. I'll tell you what you do if you get those the best thing to do is.

Please let it play out even click on the link to donate. That's what I do on every one of the Kamala Harris ads. Every time I see them because what it does is those two things one it takes money out of their campaign.

I know just a little bit. But if we all did it it could help because they're only asking for $5 if we could all take the $5 away. Hey it but it also puts it in our pocket at the ministry here in striving fraternity.

So it's like a double win by doing that every time I see those come up. I let them roll. I click. I think I'll waste their their their money as best I can. So yeah, well, let's get into our discussion tonight.

So tonight what we want to do is talk about a fun topic a biblical topic of. That's going to be Presuppositional apologetics and so Dan, could you do us a favor and start us off with you know just. Well, I'll ask it this way.

You can either give your background of how you came into precept because you kind of touched on that. But either start there or start with the definition whichever order but I'd like you to tackle both of those.

Yeah, I kind of like to do the narrative thing first. So people get a sense of where I'm coming from and why I do what I do. So I think I'd probably like to start there. When I got first got started into apologetics I was introduced to the whole field by.

What's his name the Bible. Answer. Man guy the guy who went oh. What's his face? Wow, I just lost it. Hard being blonde and old and all that stuff. What's his name?

We'll come back to a canograph. Yeah, there you go.

So I started listening to Hank Hanegraaff and so I got really interested in this because you know. It became like a like a game show for me. It's like watching Jeopardy and you try to answer, you know before the before the contestant can you know?

And so I started having fun with it. I was like man, this is like right up my alley because you know, I like I like to know the whys about things whys. And so I would I started getting interested in it and so I I don't remember what.

What. Oh, so we are the church that I was attending at the time. Started hosting an annual apologetics conference, which is now called the worldview apologetics conference. It's the longest-running Christian apologetics conference in the United States as I'm told and I Became a faithful attender.

So every year we had guys coming in that were You know the big name and big names in apologetics. I mean we're talking Norman Geisler William Lane Craig Dwayne Gish, I remember being there one year a whole bunch of guys, right so they're but they're largely representative of the What we would call the.

I didn't know this at the time. I didn't know anything about methodologies. All I knew is like wow, they're you know answers and people ask questions. You can give them answers and this is really cool, right?

And I always heard, you know first Peter 315 commands us to be you know. To have an answer for the hope that is within us yet, which I don't know some respect, right? So it's like, you know got to have an answer.

So I'm like I'm studying to have all the answers and. So I was at that I was I attended that conference. For the first 16 or 17 years, I think I missed two years. So I was there every single year and I was you know Dutifully taking notes and listening intently and take it to just taking it all in right?

Then one year Ken Ham showed up to our church with an army of people selling books and They had a kids pack and they had an adult pack, you know, just big boxes full of books. I couldn't decide which to buy because I liked it.

You know, I talked to adults, but I was teaching kids at the time and I didn't know what to do. So I did what any rational? Person would do as I bought both. Amen. Oh, I dropped about $300 plus on books that day took him home stack ranked them and Read through every single book cover to cover.

Pro-tip if you ever want any information buy a book from answers in Genesis just realize I love paper books. But almost everything in their books is on their website for free. And a lot of the books recycle chapters so I could actually when I got done.

I actually could trace. Okay, this question is answered in this book and this book in this book and the matter of fact the chapters are identical. So anyway pro tip there. And so as part of you know answers in Genesis approach.

They had this thing they started talking about called presuppositional apologetics. Now I would not call what answers in Genesis does Full orbed kind of Vantillian Bonson and we'll get into this a little bit later.

I wouldn't call that like full-strength apologetics because you know, they are more geared towards towards a younger audience I think and people who are just getting started people who are basically not scholars right ordinary folk and.

So I was like, huh, that's interesting. Well, yeah, they said, you know, the Bible is our authority and we start with the Bible and you work out from there. I'm like, hmm. Yeah sounds sounds like a good idea, right?

So I just added that to my toolbox of things that I would do. Got through all the books and eventually. You know when I like I mentioned in my intro Started I started doing this. I started doing apologetics full-time quit my job actually God helped me quit.

I got laid off twice in less than in less than 12 months and Just started doing the speaking thing full-time. Well when the corona pocalypse hit God put me on a weight program W a I T and so I had nothing much to do but sit around and just wait for you know Wait for the whole two years to flatten the curve to be over right?

And so as I was, you know trolling around the internet one day I guess YouTube decided that I needed to see this this video from this crazy Canadian named site and broken Kate and I watched his video and I was like This is a very very different approach to apologetics.

Like why have I never seen this before, you know, 17 years of attending the largest Apologetics conference in the in the nation and I have never heard anybody speak like this. It just blew my mind so I Wound up contacting sigh on Twitter and we went back and forth with private messages for three hours.

Because I was just I was just picking his brain like what about this and what about that and what about this and he was Explaining everything to me. I was like, wow, this is fascinating. So instantly I'm on Amazon ordering ordering some books.

I got Started off with I think it was this was my first book presuppositional apologetics by Greg Bonson stated and defended Read through that and then I got against all opposition Greg Bonson Read through that and then I was told about this guy named John frame, you know, John M frame apologetics a justification of Christian belief and I read them all.

But I was like something was still kind of bugging me about it. I really appreciated the way so basically the the the this is probably a good time for me to start talking about what a Presuppositional apologetics is it's if you want to boil presuppositional apologetics down to it.

I like what size says I just watched an interview that he did about four years ago. That was reminded of you know, how to boil this down. He says presupposition presuppositional apologetics is basically this believe your Bible and do what it says Amen read your Bible believe it and do what it says.

It's like, huh? Yeah, that's that's pretty much it. But the thing that was bugging me about these books that I that I just that I just flashed in front of the camera here. Is that they seem to start from that position?

But it quickly became very thickly mired in philosophy and I'm I don't really I can tolerate Philosophy for me is kind of like I liken it to kind of like hard liquor. It's best had in very very very small doses.

And I Basically, I'm of the opinion that you know philosophy is is kind of like underwear. It's it's great for support, but you don't have to show it to everybody and and I think that's what I was really having a problem with with Presuppositional apologetics proper like the van that described by Van Til and Bonson and others and indeed Apologetics in general I think really suffers from being saturated with unbiblical thinking and more specifically with with philosophical thinking right it Aristotelian logic and everything else and we have to we hyper rationalize everything and we tend to forget The the chief end of apologetics what it should be.

As defined in Scripture as demonstrated in Scripture so After talking with sigh and having a couple more hours of private messages and then a zoom call or two had him over for had him over at my house for dinner and just still picking his brain and I'm I'm really appreciating the Bible first approach and you know, don't put your sword down and don't be ashamed of it and just you know.

You know, it's about it's about getting people the gospel it's not about. It's not about you know, philosophizing them to death like, you know, Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, right? Of course, you don't know anything about that but philosophize with him.

Ted, you know. Sorry, I know that movie reference is lost on you and.

Come on, don't you assume that I? Immediately. No, okay. Forget it.

So anyway. Yeah, so I I felt like wow, you know this this approach is really it's it's closer to where I think Apologetics should be but it's it's still it feels like it gets off in the weeds pretty quickly.

Go ahead. You sound like you want to say something. Oh, you're just breathing. Okay. Sorry I'm not used to that when my when I speak sometimes people just die and I don't know about it. So eventually I discovered Another book that we can probably probably talk about a little bit later.

Oh, hey, look I.

You turned your head away. I'm like, I'm pretending like I'm dead and you didn't even notice. Wow. It's your life alert necklace.

Yeah necklace pendant, right? Yeah. So yeah that I discovered another book by Clifford McManus called Biblical apologetics and I think that one really hit the nail on the head for me. But just to kind of recap, you know I started off as largely an evidentialist and I guess you could say a Aspiring classicist but you know some of the philosophical arguments I wish I just you know, kind of make my my brain melt and drip out of my ears.

I really resonated with the With with the evidential approach and here's the here's here's a funny story. So I had I told sigh I had this I had this presentation called Why should anyone believe the Bible and it was one hour of me talking about evidences manuscript evidence archaeology prophecy statistical probability, etc, etc, and Every time I delivered that presentation I felt utterly defeated at the end and it got worse after I after I met sigh it got way way worse.

And I was just like man Why is that you know one guy told me and I one guy in Idaho told me says man Dan I've learned more About apologetics and and the Christian faith and 50 minutes of your presentation that particular presentation that I have in years of Sunday school.

And I was like brother. That's that's quite an indictment on your Sunday school experience. Don't you think? And it wasn't sure how I really felt about that but people you know, you loved that presentation.

But I hated it and I couldn't figure out why. So I I asked sigh if he would if he would watch it and tell me what he thought he says sure. So the next day I said, hey, did you watch my presentation? He goes?

Yep. I said, what'd you think? He says, oh, I hated it. Yes. Yes. Finally somebody hates my presentation. Tell me why he says I'm not gonna tell you why. I'm like, oh, thanks. I and he says no, I'm just gonna ask you one question.

He says is that why you believe the Bible? No, you know I Only had to think for about three and a half seconds and I said well, no he says why do you believe the Bible? And then I gave him like a 30-second answer and He says well, why are you if that's the reason why you believe the Bible then?

Why are you spending an hour in front of your audience telling they should believe the Bible for this other reason? So, you know what? They call that right? And I said, yeah that that nagging feeling I was feeling it was called conviction over my hypocrisy.

So. Now you get up and do it. You do the two dot over isn't that talk is 30 seconds?

Yeah, I was asked I was invited to give to give that why should anyone believe the Bible presentation. For stand a reason. They had a youth apologetics rally here in Washington around the time that you know, the corona pocalypse was in full swing and.

They they asked I had this conversation with sigh about you know. Four or five months before I'm supposed to deliver this presentation and I'm like I can never deliver this presentation again not in that form.

So I really wrestled with it and sigh helped me kind of, you know walk through it and say, you know. He's like you can salvage the presentation. It says it's you know with a little bit of tweaking you can salvage it.

But I just felt so utterly convicted that I just threw the entire thing away. I kept the title and the end card and everything in the middle got changed. And so there I was. I went in with a fully presuppositional approach.

Basically saying let's see what the Bible has to say about why you believe. Right and stop talking about evidences and and all this other stuff. So there you have, you know in one conference in one room.

You have Greg Cokel giving a largely classical approach in one room. And then you have Jay Warner Wallace in another room giving his evidential approach and here I am. I sneak under the covers at stand to reason and I'm I'm hitting everybody with the presuppositional thing.

And so it was uh, yeah, I don't think I'm getting invited back to anything stand to reason hosts ever again. So I think I kind of burned that bridge so.

The Bible-First Definition of Presuppositional Apologetics

The ladies just set some records straight because I see some things in the chat. Melissa is telling KT that I am growing my beard because I'm protesting my bride. That is not the reason Melissa. Oh, I almost made A drink.

That was great for folks who are watching live. It's got a treat. No, I'm not protesting my bride. The fact that she is hanging out with my grandson and getting to enjoy that time as. That's not the reason Melissa.

I just think I look better with the beard and it's less to maintain and since my wife isn't here to I Look good. I try to look good for her. She's not here to see so.

So basically it boils down to this when there's nobody around to tell Andrew how good he looks and he only. Only person he gets to see in the house is himself in the mirror. He has to make himself look good for himself.

Well, there's no me look good period but so I don't typically wear a t-shirt. But I told you that I wore one just for this show. Because you know as we think about a definition for presuppositional apologetics It really is it's in my mind this simple right that we start with God.

It you have to start with God. If you don't start with God, you can't make sense of anything that we see and. So the starting point if you think about the way an atheist professing atheist wants to argue They want you to try to prove God exists.

Let's start with God doesn't exist. In other words start with their worldview and then argue for yours. Why should we do that? And and so I don't do that. So the t-shirt I have Stand up and show it it says God exists he has spoken and.

That is my two presuppositions. My two presuppositions that I hold to is God exists and he has spoken. So I don't I don't try to prove God exists. I Don't try to prove the Bible is God's Word. I take it for granted.

It's an axiom. It's something that's non-provable because if there's anything that could prove either of those They would be greater than both of those. Yeah, and so and and people will say well You know, but the atheist is gonna tell you that they don't believe.

Duh, yeah, and so my definition.

Romans 1 and the Problem of Suppressing the Truth

Yeah, so the the thing that I find funny is I remember and You you mentioned Psy he's got his you know film that he put out some years ago and He tells the story and in case anyone's wondering whether this story this story is real.

I was right there when this happened. Psy and I were in California. We went and grabbed a slice of pizza. We're coming back to the pier to do some more witnessing and This guy was on a bike he was walking a bike.

He Psy starts talking to him he he had like a Buddhist book in his in the little basket in the front of the bike and. But he's telling Psy that he's he's an atheist. He may be I might like it Buddhism.

Maybe he'd like that one. And he tells Psy I don't believe God exists. And Psy just goes yes. You do and the guy just literally puts his hand in his face his hand in his face and just shakes his head.

It goes you're right. I do and it was like, you know. It was the funniest experience because you know, what's I was ready to give them to give him. Was Romans chapter 1? Okay, because in Romans chapter 1 It says in starting in verse 18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all Ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in Unrighteousness because that which is known about God is evident evident within them.

For God made it evident To them and so this is the kind of the one verse that really I argue presuppositional hangs on. Presuppositionalism hangs on it is the idea that I go into every conversation knowing that the person that I'm speaking to Knows that God exists.

It's not that they have to be taught it. They know God exists. I'm not having to try to. I don't need to convince them of that. What I need to do is point out that there's suppressing the truth and unrighteousness.

And and that was a great Experience with sigh because it just he put it in the film because it was just such a classic experience where the guy knew he knew it and You know, so I'm gonna give a quick shout out.

This is a name you might know but Matt yester is in the in the house. I haven't seen him in a long time commenting here. But what's he commenting on my beard? He says salt and pepper nice beard Andrew, so You know, the guy's brilliant and that's and he's commenting on my beard.

He's got to get in here and start discussing this topic as well. So so yeah, I think that's an easy way to understand presuppositionalism and last week you knew had some issue with me saying it, but I think I think The view that you and I share of presupp is not the philosophical version.

And for that reason I say that when we look at these different views, I kind of view that You know evidential apologetics is is the approach of those who love science this this the scientist Classical apologetics is the is the philosophers apologetic and Presuppositional apologetic is the theologians.

Apologetic because I'm glad you brought that back up because I actually found a Portion of a quote from Cornelius Ventile who as you know And others may be just now learning is the one who originally I guess you could say he he created this approach or Made it well-known.

He made it well known and and he is. If you try reading Vantel folks Vanta I mean, I have the complete works of Vantel. I've read them. It is Difficult reading. Yeah, I don't encourage you to do that.

Yeah, so he said he said quote apologetics is the vindication of the Christian philosophy of life and there was an ellipsis apologetics deals mostly with Philosophy and that's from his book Christian apologetics apparently on page one.

So even so this is this is this is the thing that kind of tripped me up when I was reading Bonson and frame. You know Bonson was a student of Cornelius Vantel and I believe John frame was as well. So they're both, you know, the guys who kind of took Vantel's method and kind of made it up, you know more broadly Applicable to more people and more broadly accessible to more people but even you know Cornelius Vantel in the later portion of his life was Apparently wished that he had been a little more gospel focused in his approach to apologetics.

And that would be my my primary critique of the way I see presuppositional apologetics attempted or done. In the books anyway as it comes across is very very very philosophy philosophical. Whereas so that's why when you asked me to talk about presuppositional apologetics it kind of gave me heartburn because I you know, I don't consider myself a Vantel Ian or a bond sitting and or a frame Ian in my in my approach to presuppositional apologetics I kind of boil it down a little more a little more.

Down closer to the Bible than even what they would do I would be closer to like Jason Lyle has a really good book called the ultimate proof of creation, which I found incredibly helpful. It's a great primer on on on logic to if you if you want one of those.

So it's That that was my that was my problem with it. When I read Clifford McManus's book biblical apologetics. That's when everything really clicked for me and and because it kind of it kind of backs up and it says, okay.

You know every time we talk about apologetics, you know, we introduce apologetics to people. We always go to first Peter 315, but you know what? I've never heard anybody except for James White James R. White of King James only controversy fame.