The LDS "Church" Stealing from the Tithe?: 60 Minutes Whistleblower Reaction

Apologia Utah

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Hey, what's up, everybody? I am Andrew Sankrant and this is Pastor Wade Orsini. Hey guys

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Yep of Apologia Church, Utah, and we're back at you doing another reaction video

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But this time we're not responding to a David Alexander video We're gonna get back to that But we interrupt this special program for a new reaction video for something that we just heard about Well, it's been conspiring since 2019 about the whistleblower, right?

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Yeah. Yeah about some leaked Funds or the improper use of tithing quote -unquote supposedly from the

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LDS Organization over a hundred billion dollars worth of funds that they have gathered for quite some time

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And we're gonna watch a video 60 minutes just did a cover on this. There's a man named David Elm a

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Nielsen He's a former investment manager for the Church Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints And he joined unseen peak advisors with the hope of advancing the church charitable outreach globe globally

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But while he was in there, he noticed some funky things going on So we're gonna play it's like a 13 minute video from 60 minutes

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And we're gonna do some responding wall while it's on and then some of our thoughts yeah, I mean the the fact is this is a react video we we're not here as People have done all the research done all the investigation.

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We're going to react to what we see on the video We want all of you to do your due diligence to look into this

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We're speaking in such a way if if these things are true They are very damning.

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They're very concerning so That's something to consider as we get into this and we take a look at that We're gonna talk about this from of course even a biblical perspective and and what this organization

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Ought to be doing and what the Bible would demonstrate as the odds in this sort of situation

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Yeah, all right. Well with that being said, let's get right into it. Let's go. Here we go Every religion has its mysteries.

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One of the closest guarded secrets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints has been its wealth

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Tonight you will hear for the first time about its remarkable size from a former manager at the church's investment firm

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David Nielsen says that during his nine years managing money at the church firm the value of its investments ballooned past 300 billion dollars that would make it the largest treasure held by any religious fund in America But instead of spending that money to do good

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David Nielsen alleges it was used in ways that bent the law and broke his faith.

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I thought I was gonna work for a charity. I Thought that's what my skills were gonna do was help build the charity and do good with things and the funds were never used for that it was really a

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Clandestine hedge fund a clandestine hedge fund Yeah, how so those funds weren't used the way they were appropriated to be used

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So, how were they being used? Well, once the money went in it didn't go out All right, let's stop there and let's do a little quick response because that is pretty important So the the money goes in but it doesn't come out in terms of like a church

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Organization receiving tithing from people who are paying what's like the obligation for for the church?

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I would assume investing things is not necessarily bad I would assume you can do that to generate wealth

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But it it's almost like there's maybe like a tax evasion something going on like we spend this much here we put money over here, but um

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Yeah, it's kind of confusing. I mean Again this is one

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Whistleblower, we want to go by biblical standard standards. It says to Confirm something is true based on the evidence of two to three independent lines of witness.

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He is one witness There could be more and there could be more behind this interview that I just don't know of so But if this is true and what this man is

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Saying is true That money comes in but it doesn't go out that's highly concerning We see in the

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Old Testament system that There was multiple tithes. There was a tithe that was used for the

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Levites inheritance literally to care for them to provide for the

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Levites and the priests there was a tithe that was to Help create these feast feast of booths

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You know Passover feast feast of unleavened bread these sort of things when everyone will make pilgrimage and come into town and they can run these things and provide for them then there was even a

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Like a welfare tithe all this could even go upwards of 23 % depending on the year a welfare tithe for the orphans the widows

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The sojourner things like that there was even Offering system we see in the

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New Testament that the the use of charitable givings and offerings are to be used for just a couple things one the the care and provision and support financial support for elder overseers in a church who provide that spiritual support and Oversee the church so Salaries there for those people that's biblical.

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That's necessary then we see that they are to use the charitable givings that come in to keep the lights on to You know provide the administrative needs of the church and then we see a care

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For the body of Christ at large that that most of that money will go back out

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Towards the church most of it comes in to the church to go back out to the church to care for those in the body and then beyond that there's a

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Benevolence fund that would care for the needs of people even outside of the church. And so When you think about it, and when

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I think about our own church, the reality is The majority of the money that comes in comes right back out with those categories

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We we have a little extra savings and we're hoping to one day get a building and I think that's absolutely

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Righteous and okay, and the Bible demonstrates that that's just fine I think about even the example of like George Mueller where he prayed for everything

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They received it says by the time he he died. He he made all these orphanages. He cared for all these children by the time

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He died Millions of dollars had passed through his hands, but he died with like basically no penny to his name

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And so that's the church. That's the Christian churches The money comes in to go right back out for the body and the needs of the body

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I think it's important because that's one of the reasons why there's a tax exemption for churches to begin with because what churches are supposed to do as a local function within a community is to actually minister to the needs of that local community through Actual tithe payers because back when the church as in the

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Christian communities at large with an early United States of America What they were doing is they had communities going to church and we had local pastors knowing local issues and local

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Problems and the people that were having issues and they could distribute that wealth as Needed through the deaconate.

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So what we see today though is we have an abuse of biblical standards where we actually have people paying more to the government

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Than actually being able to tithe to their local church worship God with even what God has given them

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Yeah, I mean and real quick tax exemption people say that's not fair for a church to have that Well, the reality is should should the money be double taxed?

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Because the people who give out of their own free will who donate to our church

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Their money's already taxed in Multiple ways before it even touches us, you know, their money's taxed by by the federal government

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Payroll taxes state taxes and by the time they give their money.

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It's already highly taxed and they give it to us for the use of the needs of the church and Then if we removed that tax exemption for a church, then we would say now we're gonna double tax it

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But we don't use it for profit. We use it for Charitable things good things and that's that's the prescription that we see in the

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Bible Yeah And every single year we actually have a meeting with all of our church members and we have a document that shows where all of The money goes.

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Fully transparent. Fully transparent So part of the issue that I think that we're seeing here is if this information again is true

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We need two to three independent lines of testimony There needs to be one person can state their case until another can come and cross -examine them

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So we believe in innocent until proven guilty, although there's already been a five million dollar settlement That was issued to the earliest organization, which they agreed to settle.

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We won't talk about that right now But what is important for us to understand is that biblical principles actually matter within the situation?

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And if people are going to be tithing to the church, they actually should be knowing where this money is going

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So if it's not all going back out The question would be for the individual who's tithing to the earliest organization is where is it going and then why am

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I tithing? So that's that's a pretty big deal. So let's continue on with the video David Nielsen was a senior portfolio manager for the investment arm of the church called ensign peak advisors in 2009

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Nielsen who says he was a devout Mormon was recruited away from a lucrative job on Wall Street to work for the firm

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A block from church headquarters in Salt Lake City, you know this Wall Street You spend your skills working to make really rich people a little bit more rich But there is something different about the prospect of putting your skills to work for something that you think is really gonna build

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The kingdom that's really gonna make a difference but Nielsen Man, okay

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Let's let's talk about this a little bit because you can kind of hear it just in his voice man David's voice there that he has a little bit of regret for working.

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Yeah, it's like, you know, I was working for Wall Street I was making good money, but that's not the same as actually working for what you believe in to benefit in You know

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LDS doctrine has an apocalyptic Doctrine in nature about the second coming of Christ things getting more difficult

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We should have storehouses of things built up to save so I can I'm assuming that's kind of where his worldview is

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Sure at that point. Yeah, I'm I His comment about building the kingdom is is not unique in fact,

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I just taking a look at social media Mormon message boards you can see they they're even saying the same thing great

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We've made a hundred billion dollars for the kingdom. I can't wait till it goes to a trillion dollars for the kingdom the question is

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Where in the Bible do you see we build the kingdom of God with money where Now, I'm not saying

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I'm not gonna act all pious and say we don't need money No, I mean, we're stewards of what

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God has given us from the Old to the New Testament charitable giving is a necessity for the church to to do what it needs to do, but It's really just a tool

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It's a tool what I'm concerned about is what we're seeing here is the end for them is more money but actually the biblical church the

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Christian Church is The money is a tool to the righteous end which is getting the gospel to the nations

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Seeing the kingdom of God established upon the earth That's that's the kingdom.

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That's the kingdom of God seeing the gospel spread His his righteousness touching, you know see to see to the river to the ends of the earth

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Everything like that discipling the nature nations teaching them to obey all that I've commanded.

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That's the gospel of the kingdom and Money is a small tool to get there, but it's not the end

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It's it's not the the chief end of that kingdom and and maybe you'll say well, that's unfair pastor

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Wade That's not their chief end either. Well, we can say at the very least it's not the the majority

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Tool to get there. That's a small part of it. And again, if this is true if they're taking in all this

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Building it up to have none of it go out. What's happening. I mean, I even learned recently that most missionaries

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Have to raise all their own funds the ward may help them But they have all these

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Family and friends drives. They have to pay their way and they get

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Support along the way. Yeah, if you look at all up dang, it's very interesting missionary men have to Help provide their own way to get there with an organization.

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That is a hundred billion dollars Hey, if you're if you're LDS and you're listening if that's if that's true comment and let us know

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Yeah, tell us how it how it happens yeah, if there's any more intricacies just comment and let us know as well, but There's different categories for giving as well.

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So think about the tithe that they're receiving. So 2nd Corinthians 9 7 it says each one must give as he has decided in his heart not reluctantly or under compulsion

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For God loves a cheerful giver So we have a standard within the New Testament saying that you need to give it from something

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That's out of doing it for love of God the glory of the kingdom Right what we must understand with an

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LDS doctrine is that in order to reach the highest level of heaven? You actually must give 10 %

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Yep, you must give and I'm not exactly sure how it works if it's net or gross income However, the bishop goes over that with the individual.

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I don't know. Maybe it changes from Location to location and situation upon situation, but there's two different categories of giving now

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We have the Bible saying being a cheerful giver giving what you can to the glory of God And then we have the

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LDS organization saying no, it must be 10 % So imagine being in that situation too. So so you grew up LDS your whole life.

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You're seeing something like this come out Let's say you're 35 years old. You've been paying 10 % now all of a sudden you're like wait

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I've been forced to pay this in A lot of it if not, all of it isn't going to the charitable efforts that I thought they were going to right, right

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That's heavy stuff man, that's concerning. Yeah, that's that's very concerning. All right, let's keep watching Let's see.

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See what else they have to say here And says he grew troubled by what he saw at Ensign Peak He says the firm used false records and statements to masquerade as a charity stockpiling money and misleading church members

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Every year the church collects an estimated seven billion dollars in contributions from its 17 million members the church expects members to contribute about 10 % of their income a

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Practice known as tithing explain how the tithe is supposed to be used tithing is what's used to build buildings

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It's what's used to pay light bills tithing is what's used to operate some of the church's programs

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Whatever's left over about a billion dollars a year is put into a reserve fund at Ensign Peak and invested

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Because Ensign Peak is registered as a non -profit it all grows tax -free

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David Nielsen says since it was created in 1997 the reserve fund has swelled beyond 100 billion dollars

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Twice the size of Harvard's endowment or the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Could solve big problems with a hundred billion dollars.

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And is that the thing that bothers you about all this? I thought we were gonna change the world and we just Grew the bank account did any of your former bosses?

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Hold on a second. I want to talk about this too in terms of theology eschatology

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I mean if you have a pessimistic eschatology that the world's going to hell in a handbasket

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What do you really need to change? Also? According to like LDS theology if Christ's gonna come and rain from the

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Americas What need do you have to change the world? Around you, you know that and I guess

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I wonder and look we did see six billion a year is used for Administrative and programs and stuff.

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So we recognize that that 1 billion is used to contribute to that amassing of more of that 100 billion, but the reality is if Christ if it's for Christ's return which

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He'll go on to say in a bit here Then why does

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Christ need all that I guess what if Christ returns what is the Lord of glory?

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Who can't be bought or purchased, you know, you look at the book of Acts and Was it

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Simon the magician trying to offer money for the Holy Spirit? Yep, how much can I get how much do you need in order for me to get this right?

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So how can Jesus Christ Have a great need for all this money and again, it would be different if they had this investment firm and they're

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Saving for other things, you know again, I don't I think this is a false religion

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I don't want any more temples to be built or or more ward meeting houses to be created but It'd be different if they were actually using it for charitable things, but just to amass it and grow it

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So that they have more funds and for this eschatological expectation

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I guess What does Christ have need for it? I know I'm just at a loss a little bit. Yeah.

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Yeah I'm thinking like the need maybe comes from the whole apocalyptic narrative That the world's just gonna get worse and worse and so they can provide for their people before Christ comes

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Okay that makes sense in terms of the the world turning in around them and like eating them alive or trying to At least

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I would I would assume yet to Christ has no need for money Like when he when he has the the bread and the fish, what did he do?

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Hey go go actually go pay for more No, well, I mean you've been preaching on the book of John I mean when you did one of the sermons going through that it was quite beautiful to know that He was actually testing who did he ask to go get?

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Who was it that he asked which um disciple was it? He was talking to him and he challenged him essentially and he was like, well, we don't have enough bread or fish to feed

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Oh, oh, yeah Philip Philip, I believe yeah. Yeah, and Jesus was like, okay.

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We'll hand them to me and He just started Peter. He just starts separating it and making more of it.

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Like this is the God of the universe this is the God that was asleep during a storm on the

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Sea of Galilee and they awoke him and he was like Do you guys have no faith? Like I was chilling bro sleeping.

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I'm just kidding anyway he's like he wakes up and he's like calms the sea because even the wind and The rain and the sea obeys his voice like this guy doesn't he's not just a man.

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He's also God. He doesn't need More money, right? It's not it's not like a reality that the kingdom of God Essentially needs more money for it to grow.

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No, it grows through the through redemption essentially through the Holy Spirit saving individuals and bringing about new life, but What we must understand with these claims is that these are pretty weighty and they're pretty heavy

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I think that there should be some form of investigation. I think that there should be cross -examination

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In terms of what is going on because if there's a tax -exempt status and there's actual legal code for it

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Then I think it should be sought out I think justice should occur and if they don't deserve a tax -exempt status because they're breaking the law

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I think they should get they should they shouldn't have it That's a personal opinion just like the

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Church of Scientology guys. Do you want them to have a tax -exempt status? Are they doing everything correctly?

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Right. I mean they fought for so long Scientology to get a tax -exempt status that it's actually in Shambles at the moment and a lot of and I and I say this was with respect to any

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LDS person Who's listening a lot of Colts really want a tax -exempt status why because they can generate wealth and they can get wealth at a tax -free

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Benefit really and that's what we yeah, I mean, you know It seems to me if this is a horde for the future

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For when things will get more difficult when tribulation occurs before the coming of Christ Then I I'm I'm concerned

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I would be concerned like like if one of our congregants came to me and said look things are getting really bad in the world and I'm just amassing as much money and food as I can.

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I I Love when people are really balanced. I'm like look

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We've even announced this during kovat. We were like, hey, make sure you have you know Some some money in cash if banks fail or whatever have a little you know

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I even have a little bit of silver, you know have some canned goods or whatever There's there's a big difference between being prepared and being a prepper and being a hoarder

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You know, there's a there's a balance that I think we can strike there So in fact,

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I've met people at our church who used to be LDS who said they they had all these hordes and They trusted in them.

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They put their faith okay, everything's gonna be alright because we have all this extra and that would be my concern about with all this money is are

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They trusting in their riches for this Eschological and Proverbs chapter 11 verse 28 says he who trusts in his riches will fall

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He who trusts in his riches will fall but the righteous will flourish like the green leaf Do they believe if they are truly righteous that they'll flourish like the green leaf?

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It says in Jeremiah You have put your trust in your own achievements and treasures and so you will be captured

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Talking about the exile of Israel, right? behold the man who would not make

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God his refuge but trusted in his in the abundance of his riches and Was strong in his evil desire

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Even those who trust in their wealth Proverbs. I'm sorry Psalm 49 and boasts in their riches

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You know, there's so many of these things Trusting in riches over trusting in God and that's what we can do

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We can absolutely do that the the Bible demonstrates in in first Timothy 6 and Jane the book of James There's such a propensity

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For people with great wealth to put their faith in their wealth. So it's not saying that wealth is a bad thing we need men like Joseph of Arimathea we need you know men of wealth

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God uses them that that's that's no doubt But if we put our faith in those riches then we've gone astray that's right you have an idol

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It says for the love of money is the root of all evil, right? So it's like What will you stop at in order to gain a dollar are there deceptive practices going on?

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Are there people getting the wool covered over their eyes within the LDS organization again?

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I'm not sure but there was a settlement that did occur from the findings coming out from 2019

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I believe I think the settlement just happened in February of 2023 agreed upon for five million dollars

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Just something to think about there. It was agreed upon settlement We're gonna ask some questions at the end of this video if you're LDS that I think you should try to chew on but again

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We're not taking a specific side We're reacting to a video like we're not tax experts or anything of that nature

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But it is something that needs to be talked about and discussed. So let's continue on in the video Explain how the money was gonna be used one day.

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The answer was always the second coming and And It's a bit tongue -in -cheek

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But deep down I think a lot of the employees really did believe that Publicly church leaders called it a rainy day fund

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But in 2013 Nielsen says one of his bosses shared this document at a meeting that showed 1 .4

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billion dollars from the fund went to a mall being built on land owned by the church and 600 million dollars was used to prop up a for -profit church -owned insurance company called beneficial life

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Look, I'm not an expert on charities, but I've been around the block enough to know the charitable organizations can't bail out for -profit businesses and maintain

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Their charitable status and so when they gave this money to bail out a for -profit venture

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Well, okay, okay, so Beneficial life insurance company

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There's a few commercials for them as well And they're even propped up by I believe the president of the

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LDS organization at that time speaking at it or events that they were holding or even kind of telling your

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People who are part of the LDS organization to get this life insurance. That's just weird

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Conflict of interest. Yeah, it sounds like a total conflict of interest. So we have what are you saying? Is that there's a nonprofit?

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Organization bails out a for -profit company and that's something that's illegal to do. Hmm. I don't know

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I didn't know that but it sounds pretty intense as a pastor. Here's here's an analogy if we had someone

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Who came to our church? Became a beloved member and then let's just say they're like a businessman of some sort

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Let's say even we talk about housing a lot. Well, let's say they're a real estate agent and They go to the biggest megachurch you know in the valley or whatever and they become a beloved member and they use their membership in That church for what's called sordid gain

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Right, and they use it to gain a bunch of people and and they knowingly they they're not into it

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They're not really into church They don't really believe in Christ But they use that that position of being a member and being loved by everyone to gain more business for them

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That's that's a huge issue. That's something that I would address in my church That's not to say we can't share what we do and it's like oh, yeah, so -and -so's a realtor

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I'm gonna ask them blah blah, but there's when someone's specifically using their position in a church to better themselves financially

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And use that Deceptively when they actually don't believe when they're not actually genuine when it's not allowed by Scripture Then that's a big issue

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Yeah, I was I was watching some other documentaries just trying to wrap my mind around this other 60 minutes

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There's one that Canada did about a very similar situation That's going on there and Australia with regards to the

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LDS organization And there was a quote from the Australian one where it said, you know This isn't a religion that just happens to deal in business

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This is a business that actually just happens to deal in religion and I mean it starts to look that way when you amass that much money and Then we have nonprofit businesses bailing out for -profit

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Companies and I mean you can look up those 13 different LLC's. I believe that were created

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By the LDS organization and every website is actually owned by the

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LDS organization. You can look it up. It's on Mormon leaks and That's kind of weird

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I'm gonna be honest that's kind of weird again I don't understand how all of it works like the intricacies

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I'm just a layperson but that just makes your hair kind of stand up And if you are someone that's within the

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LDS organization again, and you are tithing I think you should know where your money is going to and Supposedly no one gets paid within the organizations but what about the billions of dollars that are within these

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LLC companies that are for -profit and Many of the leaders there are People who have high positions to power within the

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LDS organization and our family members thereof of those people that's kind of interesting to me Yeah, I don't know.

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I don't know. Let's a City Creek Mall and a life insurance company for -profit things

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That came about from money from nonprofit charitable donations, right and those two things right there are not the 13

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LLC's Right, right, they're not. All right. Let's continue on What was your reaction?

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What are we doing? How is this? Okay? David Nielsen says he hit his breaking point in 2018 after a website called

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Mormon leaks Linked church members to companies that existed only on paper

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Those shell companies held billions of dollars in stocks and bonds What nobody knew outside church leadership was those assets were actually controlled by ensign peak

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Nielsen says the firm called an emergency meeting. What was the explanation? These entities were to hide the assets from the members the chief investment officer said that if we were to change and Start reporting these securities in our own name it would bring undue attention to the firm and That that attention would be potentially damaging and after the meeting

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I went and confronted him. What do you mean? Potentially damaging and he said

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Dave we're gonna lose our tax exempt status. All right. All right, so we're in a pause there and This is the 13

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LLC's the shell companies that they're referring to I'll list them off for you Right now, so we have

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Ashmore wealth management Argyle research Clifton Park capital management

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Cortland advisors Elkfort partners Flint in capital management

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Glen Harbor capital management Green Valley investors metal Meadow Creek investment management

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Nuber advisors Riverhead capital management Tyverton asset management and tires asset management

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So they're saying that these are shell companies meaning that they're just a front for something really in order to store money to keep it

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From the individuals and if that if that is true if that claim is real That's deceptive and is lying to the people who are paying the tithe.

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That's not okay Right, that's absolutely not. Okay That's a sticky water to be and I don't you know sticky water is the right word for that that's a

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Wow, yeah, I mean the Bible has a lot to say about deceptive practices Using trickery hiding things

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You know Paul says in a in Ephesians he says do not participate in the evil deeds of darkness, but rather expose them and that which becomes visible comes into the light and so That's that's what's gonna happen and This is all true.

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It's coming out into the light and Since we know this is not a biblical church.

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This is an organization It's gonna continue to come out into the light. It's gonna continue to come out

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This makes sense that this is happening. If if you're after money if you're after power

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God's going to expose you that's just a reality Aren't there some good quotes even from their own prophets and presidents about not using deceptive practices

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Share those with us. Oh, yeah, let's go through them right now. And I want you guys to think about this All right. This is not coming from The Bible this is coming from your

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Doctrine, okay. This is from your latter -day Saint doctrine. This is from chapter 1 of God I think it's called the gospel handbook.

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You can look it up on the LDS Organization's website but Alma 27 27 states this it says and they were among the people of Nephi and also numbered among the people

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Who were of the Church of God and there were also distinguished for their zeal towards God and also towards men for they were

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Perfectly honest and upright in all things and they were firm in the faith of Christ even to the end And it says this complete honesty is necessary for our salvation

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President Brigham Young said if we accept salvation on the terms it is offered to us We have got to be honest in every thought in our reflections in our

34:16

Meditations in our private circles in our deals deals in our declarations and in every act of our lives teachings the presence of the church

34:24

Brigham Young it's from a book page 293 and Then continuing on it says God is honest and just in all things see

34:31

Alma 720 we too must be honest in all things to become like him the brother of Jared testified

34:37

Yay, Lord, I know that thou art a God of truth and can't not lie either 312 in contrast

34:43

The devil is a liar. In fact, he is the father of lies see Nephi 2nd

34:49

Nephi 9 9 those who choose to cheat and lie and deceive and misrepresent become his slaves in reference to the devil hmm

34:59

Continuing on it. It says this when we are completely honest. We cannot be corrupted We are true to every trust duty agreement or covenant even if it costs us money

35:09

Friends or our lives then we can face the Lord ourselves and others without shame President Joseph F Smith counseled let every man's life be so that his character will bear the closest

35:20

Inspection that it may be seen as an open book so that he'll have nothing to shrink from or be ashamed of gospel doctrine

35:28

He got 252 that's an age well that didn't age was from 1939 that's a good question though And I want to say this if this record never gets set straight with the corrupt government that we have in general guess what?

35:41

The leaders will actually have to answer to this to the face of God on Judgment Day and there will be justice that will occur

35:48

There's people that if if again This is all true Who were robbed and stolen from and told that they had to pay a certain amount of money in order to reach?

35:57

Salvation and guess what? You may not face justice in this life But you will you will at the consummation of all things

36:04

I pray that you have salvation in the true and living God so that you can rejoice in the condemnation

36:11

I'm gonna say it through God's justice for the evils that were done But again, even if not, even if you don't have salvation

36:18

God will still make that right you will still have justice For the people who did wrong all the deeds will be exposed, right?

36:28

There is nowhere that a man can hide from the eye of God. Everything will be laid bare Everything will be laid bare

36:34

It's a terrifying thing to think about but it's something that we should have a healthy fear of so that we want to honor

36:41

And glorify God now, I'll continue on doctrine and covenants 50 verses 17 through 20

36:48

Verily I say unto you that he is ordained of me and sent forth to a preach the word of truth by the

36:55

Comforter in the spirit of truth doth he preach it by the spirit of truth or some other way?

37:01

And if it be by some other way it is not of God and again he that receiveth the word of truth Doth he receive it by the spirit of truth or some other way if it be some other way it is not of God And I wanted to say something real quick.

37:11

So we actually had an encounter with two LDS missionaries. You can see it on Apology of Utah on our same

37:17

YouTube channels more more missionaries caught lying Weren't they just breaking doctrine and covenants 50?

37:23

They're trying to preach to us the spirit of truth, but when they came to us, they said well this man doesn't actually know any

37:29

English So I'm gonna talk for you He's gonna learn right but later on the man we were talking to you couldn't answer some of our questions

37:35

So the guy who supposedly didn't speak in English goes. Oh Bro, I I can actually speak.

37:42

He's new. I'm not we're like whoa So I tell you if you're actually preaching And you're not actually preaching in truth through the spirit of God I mean according doctrine and covenants 50 17 through 20.

37:53

They weren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Let's continue on doctrine and covenants 10 27 through 28 it says and thus he goeth up and down and to and fro in the earth seeking to destroy the souls of Men verily verily

38:07

I say unto you woe be unto him that lieth to deceive because he supposeth that another lieth to deceive

38:13

For such are not exempt from the justice of God. Look, I don't even read from the

38:18

Bible. Yeah, this is all of your guys's Doctrine, this is your guys's Literature here.

38:25

Why do you have shell companies? Yeah. Why do you have shell companies? Yeah hiding money

38:31

Why? Why answer that? It says we we are true to every trust duty agreement or covenant

38:41

Even if it costs us money, I I don't understand it and I want to say this because I Want you to think about this if this if you are tithing to this organization and you have to do it under compulsion

38:56

I know some of you're like, well, I'm happy to comply. That's fine, but if you are being lied to You should care

39:03

You should care why because God cares it's true, right?

39:09

Do you not deal with unjust weights and measures? That's from God, right? If it's counter to what the

39:16

Bible says is something that's supposed to be done Justice should occur if there's an organization that is taking advantage of you.

39:23

I Want you to have justice. I want you to have justice and it's okay to be upset.

39:30

I Recommend if you're upset when you watch some of this talk to your bishop tell them what you are thinking

39:37

Tell them and if they tell you well, let's just put this on the shelf for now. I wouldn't be satisfied You should seek for justice.

39:43

I know I would want to if I was in that similar position Just being honest if if it comes to light that all of these things are a hundred percent accurate

39:53

You I think you deserve justice. I really do What if there's one of those infomercials like in five years if you were a member of the

40:00

LDS organization and it has tied between the years of 1830 or your relatives have all the way up until 2025 you might be entitled to what is like like a payment blah blah blah blah.

40:16

What if that happens? Oh, I I mean it concerns me highly I I think of I just thought of as you were speaking of Malachi chapter 3

40:24

It says will a man rob God yet. You are robbing me But you say how have we robbed you

40:31

I? Say in tithes and offerings You are cursed with a curse for you are robbing me the whole nation of you bring the whole tithe into the storehouse

40:39

So there may be food in my house and test me now in this says the Lord of hosts If I will not open then for you the windows of heaven pour out blessing until it overflows

40:50

But I will rebuke you and the devourer will come for you Talking about the fact that they're withholding from God That are that these tithes and offerings are a worship to God They're offering blemished lambs

41:08

Spotted sheep and rams They're they're taking from God. He says you're robbing me.

41:15

You're robbing me and and This organization is taking from people very earnest people

41:22

People many of them are very genuine. Oh, this is I'm so glad I can give to an organization.

41:29

That's gonna do good with it That's not always the case

41:34

We talked about before Humanitarian efforts things like that. We talked about that last video

41:42

Again the the fruit of it the fruit of all that you say well so much money goes to BYU It goes to this program this school this international education this or that Seminaries that are attached to schools all over the nation things like that.

42:00

But look it's propagating a false gospel It's not using money for good.

42:07

That's not using money for good. It's not and I mean It's it's just It's it's on the real stuff.

42:16

All right, let's keep going. Let's keep going minimize us here So we just a couple talking heads in the corner and let's hear what my ginger brother has to say.

42:27

I Knew in that moment. I Was in the wrong place He resigned in 2019 and filed a 74 page whistleblower complaint with the

42:37

Internal Revenue Service Alleging that ensign peak violated its tax -exempt status by moving money to for -profit

42:46

Businesses, it's not just incorrect. It's flat -out wrong Christopher Waddell says

42:52

David Nielsen didn't have a full picture of ensign peak Waddell is one of three church bishops who oversees finances as a

43:01

Christian Church We believe that someday there Jesus Christ will return. All right,

43:06

I can't let that slide. I can't let that slide I'm sorry guys You're not a Christian Church.

43:12

You're an organization. We went through in the last video. You are a corporation With a trademark of the

43:20

Church of Jesus Christ. It's a pyramid scheme where the people the top get rich You are not a Christian Church Do not be like Judas and try to seek to imitate the disciples yet steal from God Okay, that's what's being done here.

43:35

That's a sleight of hand It's a phrase that's being used to portray the public to the public that it's a

43:41

Christian Or like religion, it's it's not and I and I think that the majority of the

43:46

United States of America actually knows that respectfully the the history of the

43:51

LDS organization is does not have a good history with the United States of America, but You know, it's not a

43:59

Christian Church. I'm sorry Please again, do not you're tarnishing the reputation in the name of Jesus Christ the

44:08

Lord of glory When you do that and you're gonna have to answer that man I'm scared for you, but let's hear more of what you have to say there

44:16

He's cross -examining the claims, but that's not why we have those resources. It's for the continuing operation and for the future

44:24

David Nielsen alleged that ensign peak violated its tax -exempt status by directing money to church businesses

44:30

How would you characterize how that money was used the church actually owned beneficial life?

44:35

and and fortunately the church had the resources to bail out beneficial life during the financial crisis 2008 2009 in the mall

44:43

The mall was not a bailout the mall was an investment and you are receiving returns. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it was an investment

44:50

Waddell says the insurance company has paid back most of the bailout money But the church would not disclose the details of that deal or the mall investment

44:59

Unlike other nonprofits religious organizations don't have to fully disclose all financial information to the

45:06

IRS What is the value right now of ensign peaks assets? Yeah, that's something I can't

45:11

I can't share with you right now I know there've been there've been reports on Approximates and that kind of thing and and that's as far as we can go.

45:18

It's been estimated at 150 billion dollars Does that sound correct? That's an estimate that some have made

45:26

Are we in the ballpark or no? We have significant resources give us a sense of what percentage is going out the door of the money under management

45:38

To be honest, we've never looked at it as a percentage Based on needs to make sure that we're comfortable with how many years worth we have in case of Financial difficulties in the case of financial crisis to make sure that we can continue church operations

45:52

We just want to make sure that that that is sufficient David Nielsen says he did not intend for his complaint to the

45:59

IRS to become public But in 2019 his brother shared it with the Washington Post Nielsen who in his free time races motorcycles says he was shunned by some of his friends and neighbors in Salt Lake City It wasn't until 2021 two years later with David Nielsen heard from investigators

46:18

Not from the IRS But the Securities and Exchange Commission which launched its own probe into ensign peak after that website

46:27

Story linked the church to shell companies. All right. There's there's so many what information?

46:34

Sorry about that guys. There's so many Government organizations like my goodness.

46:41

The IRS is like, ah, we're not looking at it, but the Security Exchange Committee the SEC My goodness, how many hands do these things have to go through?

46:50

Yeah, I don't know Don't even know there's a lot there though. I mean, wow, that's intense man.

46:58

Yeah, I I'm of the opinion that as you were talking about earlier Taxation that's higher than what

47:07

God has desired historically is is theft and You know, the best

47:15

Sectors are private. They're not public the worst things this country have been

47:21

Offered publicly there. They're there to to you know Make sure there's armies.

47:28

There's protection from foreign invaders and to Reward those who do good punish those who do evil that's about the extent

47:37

That the Bible demonstrates. So yeah, absolutely. All right, let's keep going here. Let's get back to my ginger brother again

47:45

Did you give to the SEC? Everything I helped him see the big picture to protect market fairness and Transparency any firm with more than a hundred million dollars in securities must file accurate reports on its holdings with the

48:00

SEC But in February the SEC announced the Church of Latter -day Saints and ensign peak failed to do that SEC investigators found the church went to great lengths to hide 32 billion dollars in securities over nearly 20 years

48:15

It created 13 shell companies that were assigned a local phone number that would go directly to voicemail

48:23

Stop real quick. So this is what we were referring to earlier and this is the settlement that they also right as well

48:30

So it looks like they were actually Convicted of this and they well they they settled instead of actually having a conviction

48:36

But let's continue on case regulators checked in here. They had these Back office accountants who had never bought a bond or sold stock a day in their life

48:48

Signing signatory pages For a portfolio that didn't exist the

48:54

SEC find the church and ensign peak a total of five million dollars Bishop Christopher Waddell told us it was the church's lawyers who advised them to create the shell companies

49:05

What about you know, the idea that secrecy builds mistrust? Well, we don't feel it's being secret.

49:11

We feel it's being confidential. What's the difference? the difference is I Guess it's a point of view

49:20

It's confidential in order to maintain the focus on what our purpose is and what the mission of the church is

49:26

Rather than the church has X amount of money But isn't that what you just said though like yeah, what's the mission and focus of the church doesn't that kind of show

49:36

What the mission and focus of the church is to not actually be transparent with its members Didn't you guys just put your foot in your mouth right there man and create shell companies in order to hide specific amounts of money for tax purposes,

49:47

I mean You just kind of like had double speak there man sure, you know,

49:54

I I'm sure some will say look Don't Individuals have the right to keep things secret or confidential

50:07

Am I'm do I have the right as a private citizen to? withhold

50:14

My financial information from the public. Yeah, I do. I should have that right but the difference is this is a

50:24

Nonprofit charitable organization that calls themselves a church and They're receiving charitable donations

50:34

I'm a private person receiving a wage for a work that I'm performing

50:39

So are all of you and we have the right to that privacy even though in many ways.

50:45

It's being infringed upon But this is an organization Receiving charitable donations and they're not disclosing how they use it how they disseminate it how

50:56

What what it applies to? Instead creating shell companies that aren't necessarily doing anything setting up voice setting up phone numbers

51:05

I go directly to voicemail to not have to answer to anybody and Getting found by the

51:10

SEC that what they did was actually wrong. Our members can look at how we receive and Spend every penny.

51:17

I mean that They can do that. That's that's totally this is our church together

51:23

This isn't the apology at church that belongs to Wade or Andrew or whoever.

51:29

This is Christ Church This is his money. We're stewarding it. This is his body his bride and For that reason we should be transparent as a religious organization, right?

51:42

In that guy that they were just talking to you. It seems to me like You might take this personal

51:48

I'm just trying to be tongue -in -cheek here But it's like if Jesus was to look at Judas and be like, hey, where'd that money go?

51:54

Hey, where'd that money go man? And they starts giving like an explanation a really long winded sentence to try to explain something

52:02

Yeah, it didn't really work there man, especially when you had that long Um little pause you had a nice little smile on your face, but I think it said it all

52:10

I think it said it all let's let's keep going on. Oh Let's not throw us out of the the window.

52:17

Here we go. But don't you agree? This would be a non -issue if there was more transparency

52:24

No, because then everyone would be telling us what they wanted us to do with the money Last year the church says it spent over a billion dollars on humanitarian aid

52:35

Including food production in any given month. You may have an average of nine

52:40

Transfers that going from Ensign Peak back to the church to fund all church operations all humanitarian work

52:47

Education work all the work of the church they fund money's going in and out of the cash accounts all the time

52:53

But Ensign Peaks funds were never used for any charitable purpose.

52:59

Okay. Hold on I want to stop there to just we're gonna use it like a Ray Comfort Example real quick.

53:04

I think it's important. So he uses this all the time when he's doing Ministry out in California.

53:11

He goes. Okay, so you're in trouble you are a liar and you're you're let's say you're caught stealing you're caught stealing you're in front of the judge and You are on trial for stealing but then you look at the judge you say but I did this

53:23

I helped this one poor person I closed him. I did all of these different humanitarian efforts and he goes

53:29

That's great and all but you're on trial for what you did wrong That's all I heard right there from that man was a placating to something different.

53:37

Look look deflecting deflecting These things may have happened. But look we do 1 billion dollars Giving to this humanitarian effort that I'm humanitarian effort.

53:46

It was deflecting and that's not what the issue is. It's not you're just trying to go Well, we may have done this bad, but look at all these things over here that we do that are great, right?

53:55

That doesn't work in the justice of God. He says well guess what you're on trial for what you did wrong

54:01

I hope you have a pardon. I hope you have a pardon My pardon is the blood of my

54:06

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ He was the current eternal God who took on flesh now on the cross for my sins But uh, it's a little bit different when there's an organization doing these types of things.

54:16

Yep What can you do a Ray Comfort impression real quick? You ever told a law before We love

54:26

Ray Comfort dude Ray is raised the bomb diggity. All right, let's get back to this guy right here

54:32

It's to my knowledge the whole time I was there so there's a bit of a distinction here that's important explain that to me

54:40

Well, it's the difference between your checking account and maybe your retirement account They're used for different purposes and you don't get to Pretend that one is affecting the other the fundamental claim to me.

54:53

Is that enzyme peak? Brings money in and it's the Hotel, California It never comes out

55:00

Phil Hackney worked in the office of chief counsel of the IRS and teaches tax law

55:05

He concedes it's complex and the case falls into a gray area The church would say we give millions of dollars out every year in humanitarian work

55:16

How much is enough by the standards of the IRS? We know within private foundations.

55:22

It's 5 % of assets there's no clarity when it comes to public charities and certainly not with churches, but I Would expect to see something like two three percent of assets being spent out to justify that status

55:39

But how do you know if they're spending two or three percent of assets if we don't know what the assets are?

55:44

We have to rely on them behaving. Well, they said they bailed out this

55:49

Insurance company. That's the words they used. Is that a problem it? Is a problem in my opinion if they have moved

56:00

Money from the nonprofit to a for -profit. So how likely do you think it would be that the

56:05

IRS would ever investigate this? slim The political risk is so great

56:12

That it comes with real danger this at the same time There's a real risk

56:18

To the rule of law if the IRS doesn't come in and enforce those rules David Nielsen says honesty is a tenet of the faith

56:26

He wants and signed peak advisors to pay the taxes He says it owes on the 100 billion dollar fortune built from tithing if the

56:36

IRS decides Nielsen is right. He could be rewarded with up to 30 % of what's collected

56:42

The IRS does not comment on whistleblower complaints Why?

56:48

Wow, there's a lot a lot being said there. Yeah, by the way I've seen on some of these message boards.

56:56

Some are saying look he stands to gain 15 to 30 percent of a hundred billion dollars or a hundred fifty billion dollars

57:05

That's not what it just said. That's not what the IRS whistleblower page says It's whatever fine they take on he would receive 15 to 30 percent for exposing this evil deed and so You can speculate as to his motives, of course, he could be doing this for money but it doesn't dismiss the fact that it's happening and That all of it is a concern.

57:35

So man Yeah, it's a it's interesting stuff we live in a world full of peculiarities

57:42

We live in a fallen world where people do things they should not be doing but the good thing about Any of that is that we actually have a perfect God who is unchanging who does no wrong who never did wrong

57:56

Who works all things together for good for those who love God for those who is called according to his purpose who will make every?

58:03

Wrong, right? We're gonna try to stay updated with what comes out in the future with this

58:08

But I want to leave you guys with a few questions if you're LDS Please consider these questions.

58:14

I've got this from one of our friends who is on the Mormon myths Facebook page

58:20

She actually put these in positive these questions out earlier in the year. I'm gonna posit them to you You've got to check this out.

58:25

By the way, if you're on Facebook go to Mormon myths. Yeah meme page It's really it's actually very good.

58:32

Here's here's five questions. I just want you to think about okay, is This a shiny example of how

58:37

LDS church leadership and church employees were quote -unquote honest in All their dealings with their fellow men remember remember what we read earlier second question

58:47

Are they being internally consistent with their own standards of honesty and in their temple recommend interview?

58:54

right because don't they Even ask those in their temple recommend

59:00

Interview, are you giving properly? How are you spending your money? Let me see how you're spending yours and if you're giving enough to us right number three is paying five million in fees and agreeing to settle instead of taking it to trial an admission of guilt or wrongdoing

59:18

Right, if if they didn't do anything wrong if they're truly innocent, why don't they fight it?

59:24

Why don't they demonstrate? That they're innocent in this instead of just settling for five million

59:31

It's probably because five million to drop in a bucket compared to a hundred billion dollars hundred and fifty billion

59:37

Maybe yeah, he even smiled and he's like, we're pretty much says we're pretty well. We're pretty well set.

59:42

We're doing well We're doing well. All right Number four as there's no mention of an appeal it appears as if they're not contesting the material facts of the case against them

59:53

Wouldn't you appeal if you're innocent of wrongdoing Yeah, really think about that.

59:59

And again, according to your standards if the LDS organization did deceitfully do things

01:00:07

Isn't that Satan It's according to your own standard number five Yeah, who has five million dollars lying around to throw away if they're truly innocent of deceptive practices

01:00:19

Yeah, those are really good questions really pointed questions Yeah You know, we want justice for you.

01:00:27

By the way, if you're having a hard time reconciling some of these questions It's not because we're we're upset with you as a person who's tithing to the

01:00:34

LDS organization No, we want you to have justice. Really? That's the yeah, we are Evangelical Christians we are biblical

01:00:41

Christians from the outside looking in on your your organization and these issues and Reacting to that but at the end of the day

01:00:52

The whole point of reacting to this is We're hoping you'll consider some of these questions but even then

01:01:01

Beyond considering some of these really hard questions is we pray to God that that would

01:01:08

Cause you to examine the organization you're in to examine their their their works their deeds all the things that they're doing and Compare it to the scripture to the infallible inerrant

01:01:24

Word of God the only standard The highest standard I mean and and and in that comparison see that it's falling short

01:01:33

There's unequal weights and measures here. This is an unbalanced organization and at the end of the day

01:01:41

I Pray this doesn't make you Atheist I pray this doesn't make you agnostic.

01:01:47

I pray this doesn't make you just shrug and go Well, I just love the community. So I'll steep. I'll keep going

01:01:54

Whatever. They're making great money That's wonderful. I'm a I'm a person who's successful myself.

01:02:02

I think it's great that they're making money off of this stuff Please don't do that Look to the scriptures look to the biblical example and I pray that this causes you to consider the fact that there is a true

01:02:17

Church of Christ a true Church of Christ Christ bride and filled with redeemed people who are who are being

01:02:26

Saved to the uttermost who are now a prized possession of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we're not perfect people by any means but he is perfect and These things

01:02:38

Demonstrate that there's something going on with this organization.

01:02:44

You've got to look into it. You've got to consider it and Yeah, very heavy stuff dude

01:02:50

The Lord of Glory is the exact opposite of deceitful practices in order to have sordid gain listen to this

01:02:57

Jesus Christ himself paid my debt I Am the unworthy one

01:03:03

I am the one where the wages of sin is death I am the person who is worthy of damnation

01:03:11

Right, but Jesus is so perfect and so good and so has so much glory that he actually paid what

01:03:18

I owed The LDS organization does the opposite they force you to pay 10 % in your tithe and if they're having deceitful practices

01:03:29

Yeah Can't you see how that's the opposite of what Jesus Christ came to do he paid my debt

01:03:34

He paid it. Yep. He didn't force me to do something They're forcing payment everywhere, yeah forcing payment for salvation through your deeds through your attendance

01:03:48

Through missionary work you're paying you're paying you're paying you're paying

01:03:54

For something that you can never pay for you're you're trying to throw pennies on top the inexpressible

01:04:04

Unfathomable Amount that Jesus paid for his blood. It's it's like It's like literally throwing trash next to treasure.

01:04:12

Yeah, it's not gonna pay for anything. Yep your tithe everything Guys this is serious.

01:04:19

This is serious stuff very serious. All right. Well, thank you for sticking in with us this far make sure to like Dislike subscribe or even comment and just hate us if you want, that's okay.

01:04:32

It's happened before it'll happen again But we care about you. And again, we want justice for you and justice terrain because it will happen one day

01:04:42

But thank you for watching this video and we'll see you guys next time as we do another reaction video.