August 16, 2023 Show with Rev. Evan McClanahan on “Worship Wars”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the 16th day of August, 2023.

Before I introduce my guest, I have a very urgent prayer request, and that is for my brother

Andy. Many of you who listen to this program regularly may have heard me make on -air prayer requests for him.

He resides in a local nursing home here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, ever since he was left completely paralyzed on his left side after a major stroke a number of years ago.

And he had a recent bout with pneumonia, which, by God's grace and mercy, he appears to have conquered.

But a new development has been brought to light that is life -threatening for my brother.

He has a blood contamination known as sepsis, which is deadly, and he went to the hospital two nights ago and demanded to be returned to the nursing home against the doctor's insistence.

They nonetheless obliged his demand, and he is back at the nursing home, which is a lot less safe place to be in his condition.

I was visiting him today, trying to convince him of the seriousness error of his decision, and I was basically speaking to deaf ears.

And thankfully, the conversation was interrupted by a nurse who was beginning the intravenous antibiotic session that he was urgently in need of.

So I will keep you updated on to his health, and I would plead with you to please pray for my brother

Andy. I am not at peace with his standing before God.

I'm not at peace with his profession of faith in Christ. So I would ask of you also, and perhaps first and foremost, that you pray for his salvation above everything.

But God willing, I will have a praise report for you in the near future, but time will only tell what our sovereign

Lord has in store for my brother. So thank you all for praying, and I know

I can count on my listeners, as you have always revealed to me through the hundreds of emails and responses to social media posts and so on, that you are, many of you are rallying behind me in prayer through not only this situation, but through others

I've experienced in the past. But I want to thank you all from the very depths of my heart. But today we have as a returning guest

Reverend Evan McClanahan, who is moderator and occasional participant in one of the only continuously operating debate series in the country, the

First Word Debate Series at First Lutheran. He is a writer for The Everyman and The Federalist and pastor of the

First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas. Today we're going to be addressing the very controversial theme,

Worship Wars. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Evan McClanahan.

Well, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Once again, we had so much fun last time. We did a two for one.

Yes. So I'm going to try to talk faster this time so I don't steal your valuable airtime.

And we'll get it done in one go round. One shot. I hope that is not a revelation that you hate coming on this show.

No, no, no. Like I said, I hope this is not like a Band -Aid treatment. Let me rip this off like a

Band -Aid and get it over with. No, 100 percent not. Like I said, I'm very honored to be here. I just, you know,

I don't want to take up any more of your precious time than any of my thoughts warrant. But I'm looking forward to the talk today, and hopefully we'll get some listener feedback as well.

I'll try to ask some questions along the way. I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on, so it's not just going to be me talking for sure.

But this is definitely something I've thought about a lot. And actually, the one debate that we hosted at our church that I participated in, other than as a moderator, was on this question.

A friend of mine, Clinton Wilcox, and I did have a formal debate on kind of contemporary worship or,

I don't know, true Christian worship or something to that effect. And so I'm actually stealing –

I don't know if it's theft if you're stealing from yourself, but I'm kind of lifting some of the same material with some kind of updated thoughts.

Because as time goes on, we do have, you know, we do have some data.

We have more data coming in, right, on kind of the state of the church. And, in fact, we're in kind of the post -COVID era, if you will, right?

So I definitely – anyway, but if people wanted to see that, it's somewhere out there on YouTube on the

First Lutheran Debate YouTube channel or the First Lutheran channel. I don't know. Anyway, something to think about.

Well, since it's been a little bit – not too long, but a little bit since you've been on the program, why don't you remind our listeners about First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas?

Yeah, First Lutheran, it goes back to the 1840s in Houston, which for your East Coasters, I know that's like a young church.

But for those of us in Texas, it's pretty old. That's when the Germans started to come up through the

Gulf of Mexico. A lot of them stopped in Galveston, but a few kept on to Houston. And so we're a German immigrant church and gone through a lot of interesting denominational changes, became

Lutheran again after basically becoming independent for a number of years in 2001, and that was in the very, very – it wasn't quite so crazy at the time, but it became obviously kind of nutty, which was the

ELCA. We left that in 2011, and we are a traditional church pretty much in every sense of the word.

Our worship is – in fact, I'm holding right here our LVW, our 1978 hymnal, and there have been a few publishing houses that have tried to update it, and I don't think there's really much out there that's better quite yet.

It's not perfect by any means, but we still use a hymnal, no screens, no rock band. We had a fire in 2011.

We used that insurance money to get a brand -new pipe organ. We're very committed to these traditions.

But we do outreach. We have these debates. We do outreach to college students.

I'm part of Theology on Tap, which is kind of an informal kind of debate, evangelism, apologetics ministry.

We have a preschool. So I like to think that when it comes to worship, we hold on to traditions that have value that I'll be explaining here in this conversation, but we do a number of things to do outreach, and next time we talk in a couple weeks,

I'll be actually talking about that a little bit, kind of a vision for the church, maybe, dare

I say, kind of a different vision. Those words are controversial, but kind of a different vision for where the church is going to need to end up, being basically a wholesale community participant rather than just a place people show up to worship.

But when they show up to worship, you need to do it. Well, let's just say there are better ways to do it than others.

Well, you know, I have just, and believe it or not, this just popped into my head right now.

I have a suggestion for a motto for your

Theology on Tap. How about, All Stout, No Suds?

I like that. I'm pitching that. I'm pitching that. I'll give you credit, though. So, actually, that would be great for merch, you know, with the

Theology on Tap logo, All Stout. I love that. It's great. Yep. And if anybody wants more information about this fine congregation, go to, let's see.

Oh, man, I need a new pair of glasses. FLHouston .org,

FLHouston .org. Yep. The L, as always, when it's in lowercase, looks like an

I when you have bad vision especially. So it's FLHouston .org. And this is a conservative, confessional

Lutheran church, although the denomination does accept or believe in the ordination of women.

That is not a compulsory thing for individual congregations. Am I right? That is correct.

And as I've said before, I would be shocked if, you know, that were ever to happen at my church, my congregation.

But if it did, it would be long after I was gone. So, yeah, that's the reality.

Now, tell us about the debates coming up next year with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is a dear friend.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you asked, because actually today I put tickets on sale and put posts on my personal

Facebook page. I'll shoot an email out to my debate list and all that.

So I've got three nailed down. One is in process due to some scheduling difficulties.

One may not happen early next year. So I've got two with Dr.

James White and Trent Horn of Catholic Answers. The first is on solo scriptura.

And as I'm saying, you haven't heard it all before. There are some new arguments. Of course, if you listen to Dr.

White's podcast, he's pulling this apart already, so you're going to kind of get a preview.

But if you want to see them talk about it directly to one another with ample cross -examination, I've got 20 minutes each of cross -examination in the contract.

So we're going to have lots of cross -examination. And so it's on solo scriptura. So like I said, there are new arguments coming out.

New arguments from Trent Horn, not Dr. White. Yes, yes. Thank you. In fact, ironically, aren't they

Protestant arguments or arguments from a Protestant? Yes. Apparently he's using a book written by a

Protestant who, I guess, doesn't believe that Paul even wrote 2 Timothy, and yet he's – they're looking at, you know, the

God -breathed Theionoustos. That's the Greek word, Theionoustos. And so Trent Horn is kind of offering a different translation from God -breathed, which seems to be the literal meaning of that phrase.

And so therefore it's a debate ultimately about the nature of Scripture. And so what you don't want to see happen, even among our

Catholic friends, is a denigration of Scripture to get away from the authority of Scripture.

Right? I mean, even if you've got, like, a high value of Scripture and a high value of tradition, hey, at least you've got a high value of both.

Maybe we can work with that in some way. I mean, there's more to debate. But if you've got to lower the

Scripture and start talking about its ontological nature being in some way decreased, maybe it's not

God -breathed after all, etc., etc., well, that's a problem. So they're going to be pulling that apart. I think it'll be really interesting.

And then the Doctrine of Purgatory. Yes, again, in fact, I don't know if you hosted one of his Purgatory debates.

Yes, I did. The most infamous one with Peter Stravinskis. That was where an audience member during the

Q &A, tongue -in -cheek, it was a Protestant audience member who tongue -in -cheek asked

Peter Stravinskis, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact transcript of the debate in front of me, but the audience member said,

I heard you can lessen your time in Purgatory by giving a donation to the

Catholic Church. If that's true, who do I make the check out to and how much? And after an uproarious laughter occurred in the audience,

Stravinskis answered, hey, pay now or pay later. And I think that Roman Catholics in the audience, or at least many of them, were shocked by that.

I'm just assuming. Yeah, wow. There was an eerie silence and some moans. Wow. I mean, the moans may have been all from Protestants, but I don't think that every

Catholic was happy with that kind of a glib but very revealing answer.

Yeah. And I'll say, you know, I like Trenton Horne. I mean, you know, he has a YouTube channel that's doing pretty well and a podcast.

He just did like a three -hour debate with kind of a left -wing influencer named

Destiny on a kind of popular podcast among the young folks called

Whatever. And I actually hope to do a review of that debate on my podcast because I think there are some real –

I mean, I think he did an okay job. I think there are some real problems with it. But, you know, I give him credit.

He seems like a nice enough guy. And, you know,

I think Dr. White's a nice guy, and I think they'll – but, you know, they're both very serious about what they believe.

And purgatory, it gets to gospel issues, I mean, for sure. Oh, of course. I mean, it's sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ.

So it's right there. I mean, so it's kind of exciting, really, to get back to these Reformation debates, you know?

I mean, it's living history. So I'm really excited about that. I mean, I cut my teeth. When I got into apologetics, you know, it was, you know, kind of William Lane Craig and then, you know,

Dr. James White on YouTube. You know, that's kind of – and it was a lot of these Catholic debates, as I said on a previous show that, you know, some of which you were hosting.

So I just was shocked that anyone was still debating those topics. I kind of thought they were in some way settled or something.

But Dr. White does a great job of bringing them to the fore. And then after that – because as you all know, if you're fans of Dr.

White, you know he drives to his various locations. On his way back through Houston, so a couple weeks later,

March 9th, Saturday, March 9th, we've got a debate with Dale Tuggy of the

Unitarian Christian Alliance. And so yeah, that's going to be a classic

Trinitarian -Unitarian debate. The question is, is Jesus Yahweh? And the contract is signed.

We're good to go. So the fourth debate, I think everyone agrees on the topic.

But literally an hour ago, I was going back and forth with some emails, and I don't think we've got a date that works for all parties.

So we're going to see what we can do. But if that is pulled together, it would be on John 6.

And if you're a listener to, again, Alpha and Omega's podcast or The Dividing Line, you know exactly what

I'm talking about. But I'm not going to be the one to name names. So we'll see what we can pull together.

And while you're at it, or while we're at it, I might as well throw in a plug for a debate that I have arranged that's coming up very soon.

This is a debate I arranged for my friends at the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society. It is a part of a three -day conference where Dr.

White is the keynote speaker, Friday, September 15th through Sunday, September 17th, in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, which is

Lancaster County. The theme of the conference is The Gospel at War.

And Dr. White will be joined by other speakers who take different elements of how the gospel is at war with specific things in our world that involve both the church itself and things going on in society.

But on Saturday, September 16th, from 3 .30 p .m. to 6 .30 p .m.,

Dr. White will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles. And Dr. Coles identifies as a gay

Christian. And the theme of the debate is Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a

Member of Christ's Church? And if you want to register for that conference and debate, go to futureofchristendom .org,

futureofchristendom .org. Register as quickly as possible so that you get the best price possible.

And you'll be hearing more about that. But we are going to be discussing, when we return from our first commercial break, the theme of Worship Wars.

And if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own for Reverend Evan McClanahan, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you vehemently disagree with the style of worship that takes place in your own church.

Perhaps you're even the pastor and you have those complaints, but obviously don't want to draw attention to your identity at this point.

We understand that. But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

We'll be right back with Pastor Evan right after these messages. Please do not go away. The Mid -Atlantic

Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

The debate topic, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

So come join us for the 6th Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news! Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

SecureComm Group, and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or a hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio praise

God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the

American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications,

Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model, to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.

Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today.

Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,

Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering a mind -blowing opportunity to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Anybody in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience who purchases jewelry from royaldiadem .com,

valued at $100 or more, whether it be something that they already have in stock in the form of jewelry at royaldiadem .com,

or if you're having a customized piece of jewelry created, like an engagement ring, like turning your church logo, your parachurch ministry logo, your seminary logo, your denomination logo, perhaps you want to turn, if you're a

Lutheran listening, or just a person listening who considers Martin Luther one of their great heroes of the faith, as many people do outside of Lutheranism.

If you want to have Luther's rose turned into a pendant for a necklace or a ring, or anything else that your imagination and creativity can conjure up, royaldiadem .com

will take what's in your brain and turn it into a physical piece of jewelry that will blow your mind. I've seen firsthand the mastery that they have over custom designing jewelry, and you are involved in every single step of the customization process, which guarantees that the jewelry comes out exactly the way you want it to.

No matter where in the world you live, through the miracle of computer software, you will see every phase of the process as they design and create your jewelry, where you are able to give your input, and you'll be able to say, hey, you know,

I love this, but I hate this. Hey, can you make this larger and make that smaller? Can you change the color of this stone?

And on and on. And then finally, after they're finished going through that process, they mail you a wax prototype, three -dimensional wax prototype, that you can hold in your hand and flip and turn in every angle to see what it will look like.

And then when you give your final approval is when you get the final casted product, the final jewelry product that they create.

And I know that you are going to love whatever they do for you. If you have any interest in buying jewelry for yourself or someone you love, please do it soon at royaldiadem .com,

because I have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on this offer, where we get 100 % of the profits from any sale to an

Iron Trip and Zion Radio listener, as long as they mention Iron Trip and Zion Radio when purchasing their jewelry.

So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We're now back with our guest, and his name is

Pastor Evan McClanahan, pastor of First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas, and we are discussing worship wars.

And I'm assuming, although I could be wrong, that this is intended to be a comparison and contrast between what has become known as traditional worship and contemporary worship.

Am I right? Yeah, I think so. But I even want to go a little bit deeper and kind of try to ask some foundational questions about what worship is, what it's trying to accomplish.

Who is God? Who is this God that we're worshiping? So let me—it's a big topic, obviously.

I don't know. It's not as debated as much as it used to be when the contemporary scene was kind of rolling on, you know, onto the scene,

I guess, in the 90s and 2000s. Now that's the mainstream. Now we're the weirdos. You know, now the pastor that wears a robe and a stole and, you know, we sing out of a hymn.

We don't have screens. You know, that's definitely the minority point of view now. But at one point, we were kind of the majority.

But I do want to challenge some basic notions that just because something old, it's good, or just because something is new, it's bad.

The question really is, what are we trying to do? So let me just ask some questions to kind of get the ball rolling here. CCM, Contemporary Christian Music, it's been around for,

I don't know, about 40 years or so. And part of the reason for CCM was to offer—well, we were told, it's right there in the name— a contemporary voice to the

Church, right, to reach the unchurched, right, all these people that weren't going to Church because Church was stodgy and old -fashioned and everything else.

And so CCM was going to grow the Kingdom or help grow the Kingdom by reaching those who would not or could not be reached by old -fashioned worship with, you know, vestments and organs and choirs and all of that.

Okay. So fine. Sounds good. So here's, I guess, a question.

We've been doing it long enough. You know, the data's in, right? So my question to the audience would be, what's exactly the state of American Christianity today?

Also, to what degree are CCM and the seeker -sensitive model or the attractional model or the

Church growth movement or the charismatic movement one and the same thing? You know, those things, after a while, they kind of get hard to pull apart.

And so those are realities, though, that we've got to pull apart, you know, because it could be that, you know, some contemporary music is just fine, but if it has the goal of, you know, the

Church growth movement, those are not necessarily good goals. Likewise, there's issues in the charismatic movement, and yet they use contemporary music.

So anyway, so more questions for the audience. What's the purpose of worship? You know, what is it for?

Now, you might think that's kind of an easy series of questions, but in fact, it's not. Christians do not agree on what worship even is or who it's for.

I mean, just to give you a little taste, is Christianity – I'm sorry, is worship for Christians, or is it for non -Christians?

I was at a Church conference just last week, and one of our speakers in our tradition, which is a pretty, you know, fairly traditional conservative, you know,

Lutheran tradition, was that – how was it said exactly? Basically, the

Church is the only organization founded for the sake of others, something to that extent.

And on the one hand, that's kind of a pious -sounding thing, but on the other hand, it's just not true.

I mean, what about when Jesus says to Peter, feed my sheep? Is that not for the members of a

Church? So I think as a Church, you can have an outward and an inward focus. That's okay, and too much of one or the other is a bad thing.

But if worship is not for Christians, then you're going to have the results that I think are pretty clear, which is it's a mile wide but an inch deep.

A few more questions. If worship is primarily a time set aside to praise God, well, who is this

God? What's he like? How should we approach him? Are there any examples in the

Bible of God making himself known to mere mortals? And how did those men react?

Obviously, one thinks of, say, the burning bush or Isaiah 6 right off the bat. What are the most important characteristics of God that would dictate the way that we might approach him?

If we all agree that our primary mission is to be a disciple of Jesus and to make disciples of Christ, I mean, it's right there in Matthew 28 and 19, right?

Well, what role does worship have in that? Or are those two totally separate things? Is worship this thing that we do for our private piety and discipleship is the thing that we do for,

I don't know, our public exposure or to bring people into the faith? Or are these two things actually interconnected in some kind of deep, beautiful, profound way?

So in sum, these are the kind of questions I think we need to be asking in the church, but the question we usually end up asking is, what can we do to stem the crippling loss of members that we are experiencing at the moment?

How can we reach and attract more people into our group? And if we're kind of stuck on these kind of superficial questions, we're going to keep getting really superficial answers, and I think that's where we're at.

So I'm at the point now where I think the church needs to just reevaluate things.

I think we've got enough data on the worship wars in to where I don't know.

I think it's safe to say that it maybe hasn't accomplished all that everyone thought it would accomplish, you know, has.

So anyway, I don't know if you want to respond to any of that or you want me to just keep going or what? Well, I'd like to give perhaps a caveat and see if you agree or disagree with it.

Sometimes when we have in the church discussions like this, comparing and contrasting the idea of traditional versus contemporary worship, we have to recognize or at least should consider that there are modern

Christian hymn writers, songwriters, recording artists who sing and record their music in a way, in a manner and in a style that is very much reflective of the hymnody of the past.

The Gettys, for instance, I think have created some breathtaking music that very often at the church where I'm a member,

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, we have a very traditional worship service, primarily using hymns from the

Trinity hymnal and also using a psalter that we have. Every pew has a psalter. But in the bulletin, they typically, at least a couple of times a month, will include a contemporary song.

But when sung, it just sounds like a hymn of the past where there is much biblical faithfulness and integrity in the lyrics.

The lyrics are biblically rich. They are not fluff. They are not man -centered. So don't we have to be hesitant to just throw around this idea that contemporary equals heretical or fluff or bubblegum or garbage?

Absolutely. I'm really glad you said that. There are some wonderful writers out there. One of the benefits of older stuff is that it's kind of gone through the filter of time.

So we're kind of left with the greatest hits of the church, whereas we're still trying to figure out what the greatest hits of the 2010s are.

One of my concerns with the modern, with the CCM movement, though, is that not many people are doing that kind of theological – there's just not enough people doing the theological reflection on the music.

I mean, the two biggest producers of CCM are Bethel and Hillsong, both of which are church bodies that are plagued with scandal, and I would say some pretty rotten theology that really is in contrast to Orthodox Christianity.

But yes, just because it's new doesn't mean it's bad, because everything that we like that's old was once new, even if it's a fourth -century hymn like Of the

Father's Love Begotten or something like that. Yes, at one point it was new, so it being old doesn't make it good.

Being new doesn't make it bad. I think what I would want is for the church to have the tools to evaluate, to do discernment, to kind of think this through.

And so I think as we talk through it, it'll be clear that I don't advocate too simple of an approach, but basically it's to give us tools to evaluate and kind of consider the purpose of it.

And you also brought up a good point that not everything old is good, and of course old is a relative term.

And please, my Fundamentalist Baptist friends, my independent Fundamentalist Baptist friends, do not take this as a broad -brushing insult, but very often when folks from that group of the church will use phraseology like that old -time religion and things that they cherish that they think are old are mid - to late -19th -century, early -20th -century contributions to the church that are not old.

When you compare them to things that are truly ancient in the church in the grand scheme of things.

And I have been at some Fundamentalist churches where some of the songs they sing, and remember

I'm not broad -brushing, I'm not saying every Fundamentalist church, but some of the songs they sing, even though they're almost 100 years old, perhaps a little over 100 years old, they sound silly.

They almost sound like something from a burlesque review, except they're using

Christian phraseology, and some of it is just basically reduced to the absolute minimal level of depth of anything that is a biblical concept.

Am I making sense here? Absolutely, and a lot of the problem with the contemporary stuff, if you really want to get into this, you can look at the influence of literary deconstruction.

It's made its way into the church. We're often living through music that is evocative, but not necessarily meaningful.

Well, I shouldn't say meaningful. It's not clear in what its meaning is. The Lord has given us this thing called language, and logic, and rules of language and logic, and great poets will use those rules to maybe stretch language, but to convey very particular meanings that cannot be gone beyond the words on the page.

But a lot of what contemporary Christian music is, and obviously this goes for contemporary music generally, and contemporary poetry, and probably texting, and a lot of the ways we communicate, they're not complete sentences.

They're not complete thoughts. They're not bound by the rules of grammar. They're snapshots of images.

It's one image after another. It's evocative language, but it's not arguing for anything. Whereas if I pick up this hymn,

I'm going to get four stanzas of beautiful English. Perhaps that's a translation, but still, where there are periods, and maybe there are semicolons, and exclamation points, and maybe it even rhymes, or whatever the case may be.

So I actually think actually what we want to argue for, even if it's contemporary, is just good grammar, because we want to convey – and this really gets back to the big question here, the big picture here, which is what are we trying to do in worship?

Are we trying to give people warm fuzzies? Are we trying to evoke emotions from people?

And this would be kind of my thesis statement, which is that worship is part of the formative process of discipleship.

So worship is part of that process that we go through to grow as disciples of Christ.

Now if that's the case, then that informs how you ought to worship, and it definitely does not rule out new music at all, so long as that new music is part of that process.

But if worship is meant to attract an audience, entertain people, bring them to tears, make them feel exuberant or joyous, now you have to question – well, obviously that's going to change the techniques that you employ, but I think at that point you have to question if it's even

Christian worship at that point. So I'll put it this way.

In sports, a good coach will say how you practice so you play. Well, in many respects,

I think our time in worship, it's like our practice. It's like we're learning the best.

We're learning the forms. We're doing the drills. We're being taught. And so then we play

Monday through Saturday. Not that you have to worship on Sunday per se. I understand people can't blah, blah, blah.

So worship is kind of like our practice time. It's our time of coaching. It's the time we are formed as disciples, and then

Monday through Saturday is that time that we go out as disciples. So to be clear, I am putting these things together, whereas I think what often happens is they're pulled apart.

Discipleship is your enthusiasm for Jesus that you do outside of the week, and worship is your time to, well, sometimes just basically be entertained.

But those are two contrary views of worship that are, I would argue, incompatible.

But let me give a couple of examples of how we think about this that I think is wrong compared to how other people think about discipleship in their own trades, which is very different.

So if – I mean, Chris, you and I would both agree that Christianity is kind of a serious pursuit, right?

We might even say life -or -death pursuit, something of eternal consequence.

So it's quite serious, okay? Christianity is quite a serious thing. Well, think about other disciplines that are maybe not that serious, but pretty serious, things like medicine or law or being an airline pilot or industrial production or steelmaking, for our

Pennsylvania friends, or competitive athletics or musical performance. All of those fields require an intense amount of preparation, discipline, practice, rehearsal before one is able to do those sorts of things.

So for example, if you are on the operating table and a doctor has a scalpel on his hand.

He's about to cut you open. They're about to put the anesthesia on you. What you don't want that doctor to say is, well,

I am so excited about this surgery. I failed every one of my classes. I didn't learn anything in med school.

I have no idea why they successfully graduated me. But let me tell you, I am so excited about this heart surgery today.

I have just never been more thrilled to perform surgery. I'm guessing as a patient, that would kind of freak you out, right?

I believe it would. I'd be freaked out even if it was the most brilliant surgeon in the world. But on top of that, that would be a real bone -chiller.

Exactly. So imagine, okay, we could do this all day, right? But let's say you're on an airplane, and the same thing. The pilot gets on, well, good day.

We're flying to Dallas today. Weather should be nice. I'm just so excited to be in the cockpit today. I've never flown this plane before, and I crashed it a couple times in the simulator.

But hey, I am so excited. I sometimes get the impression that Christians believe discipleship is nothing but enthusiasm for Jesus.

And it's not worthy enough to actually go through a process of formality by which we are formed, right?

Or maybe I'm saying it incorrectly. But basically, if worship is a time for our formation and discipleship is being formed, well, then

I think we ought to take it seriously. Now, I'm not saying that worship is the only tool of discipleship by any means.

I mean, we also need to do Bible study. We need to do private Bible study. We need to have moral accountability to one another.

Our stewardship is a part of our discipleship. So it's a fully -orbed thing, but it's definitely there. And so, you know, if you look at, you know,

Jesus and what people called Jesus, you know, they called him a teacher. They called him rabbi. They also called him master.

They called him lord. And so, if being a disciple, I mean, the word literally means student, right?

We get the word discipline from it, for example. I don't think it's radical at all to suggest that to be a disciple of Jesus should be something of a formal process.

It's not to say it's not going to be without its extraordinary moments. You know, moments of answered prayer, moments of jubilation, moments of bittersweet sorrow, maybe, as you leave an old life behind and take on a new life of Christ, moments of joy when children are born or when people come to faith or people are healed, etc.,

etc. So there are definitely moments in the life of a Christian that are exuberant, that are joyful, where we're very enthusiastic.

But if discipleship is only seen as this kind of emotional or enthusiastic reality, it's likely to be short -lived.

And I seem to remember Jesus telling a parable about a seed that is thrown on different types of soil.

And some of that seed springs up quite quickly. There's a lot of excitement that the seed possesses to be alive and to grow, but it's not in good soil.

It's in rocky soil. It doesn't have any ability to have depth. And so it quickly dies off.

So like anything else meaningful in life, you know, heart surgery, being an airline pilot, being a mother, virtually anything you can think of meaningful is going to have

There's a learning process. There are things that we need to know. There's often a very formal process involved.

And so why is it that the American Christian Church is so quick to throw off formal processes by which we become an informed and enthusiastic disciple of Christ?

And I think basically it's because we just don't have the patience for it anymore, right? We just want to jump straight to the excitement, and if we can keep people at that level forever, then they'll stay a disciple of Jesus.

But they're not going to stay there at that level. And so I think that what we need is where exuberance in our walk with Christ is probably the exception to the rule, but in a lot of the

American evangelical church where, you know, CCM wholesale has been adopted. And again, it's hard to pull apart sometimes

CCM from, like, the bad theology of the attractional model, the church growth movement, charismatic movement, et cetera.

I grant that. But a lot of what you see is that exuberance is the rule.

It's not the exception. So that's essentially the fight, right? That is the worship war. I'm fighting for an understanding of Christianity and discipleship that is – understands that it's a more formalized process like anything else important in life, which is certainly

I think the model you see in the New Testament, over against a church culture that seems to be making it all about how we feel today.

And that's a little bit too simplistic of a critique, I understand. But hey, got to start somewhere.

So any thoughts or, you know, I'll just keep ranting and raving if you're not careful. Yeah, so I just don't know if I am necessarily as far to the right on this in regard to if you were to consider right being – or the right wing being traditional and the left wing being contemporary.

I don't know if there is something inherently unworshipful about more contemporary melodies that were not perhaps known to the church in decades and centuries past.

I believe that one of the keys to determine that is if the melody, rhythm, instrumentation becomes dominant, makes a song less of a congregational song.

There are certainly some songs that were designed to be sung and, quote, quote, performed by an individual or by a duet or a trio rather than an entire congregation.

And there is also clearly, even though there are some who say that melodies are morally and theologically neutral,

I don't buy that because as the author of – he wrote the book

Why Johnny Can't Preach, and he also wrote the book Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns, I think. And he demonstrated that there is a fallacy with this defense that all musical instrumentality and melodies are neutral.

He said just imagine that at a solemn occasion like a funeral of a loved one, there is an individual who breaks out a kazoo and starts playing something on the kazoo.

You would likely be outraged by that unless, of course, the dearly departed loved one was a lover of kazoos.

You would likely want to bring an abrupt halt to that performance.

But anyway, we have to go to our midway break right now, and we'll pick up where we left off there. If anybody has a question for Pastor Evan, send it to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.

ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Evan McClanahan after these messages.

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023,

The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,

Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the 6th

Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Ottawa in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Andrew Rapport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Romaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Christopher Cookston, pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing, Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keach's Catechism and the

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio, and thanks for listening. If you love

Iron Sharpens Iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco. Serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the

Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth. Love.

Parent and host of its award -winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s.

And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth. Love. Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com This is

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is GraceChurchAtFranklin .org That's GraceChurchAtFranklin .org

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com That's Solid -Ground -Books .com

and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And this is another reminder, folks.

Please, if you have never purchased books from Solid -Ground -Books .com or even if you're a regular customer,

I'm pleading with you to go to that website today, Solid -Ground -Books .com

and purchase as large an order as possible. They are going through a sales slump in books and that may eventually affect

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because they are a primary sponsor of this program and if they are hurting financially, they may have to wind up eventually postponing further advertising and that will hurt us.

So please go to Solid -Ground -Books .com and purchase as generously as possible.

Keep in mind, you're not only going to be doing Solid -Ground -Books .com a favor by purchasing books from them and you're not only going to be doing

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a favor by keeping one of our most important advertisers happy, you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing books from Solid -Ground -Books .com

an enormous favor of incalculable value because they publish nothing but the very finest in Christian literature that they bring back into print from as far back as the 16th century

Protestant Reformation or that they publish for the first time including new books by such modern -day authors as Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. So please go to Solid -Ground -Books .com today, purchase generously, and mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to my guest today, Pastor Evan McClanahan of First Lutheran Church in Houston, Texas, and our discussion on the worship wars,

I just have some very important announcements to make. Folks, if you really love this show, we really need your financial help.

Please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you've never given to us before and yet love this program, perhaps you've been listening to it for years and have been very blessed by it but never have given to it, please consider prayerfully for the first time giving to us as we are in more need of your donations than ever before.

Perhaps you're a regular donor and you can afford to give a little bit more. As much as we appreciate what you've already given, we really need your help because ever since COVID and the unconstitutional, tyrannical mandates that both federal and local governments have imposed upon the citizens of this country and other countries,

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but our giving plummeted and it never bounced back. We could typically depend upon in the past an average of 20 donations a month and some of them fairly large.

Now we're lucky if we get five. Excuse me for the term lucky. But please help us if you really love the show and don't want it to disappear.

Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. If you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what we believe, you want to advertise your church, your business, your parachurch ministry, your professional private practice like a law firm, a medical firm, or just a special event, whatever it is, send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what

I believe. I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we're just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

Also, I always want to remind my listeners, as much as I am urgently requesting donations and as much of a feeling of desperation and anxiety

I may be going through over our finances right now, I never want anybody listening to give less money than you're accustomed to giving to your own local church in order to bless us financially.

And if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, please wait until you are more financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a financial gift.

The Bible is clear that our funds, our finances, are to be primarily used to bless the church where we are a member and to provide for our family.

Providing for this radio show is obviously not a command of God. But if you love the show and you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, then please, if you love the show, share some of that money with us if you want us to continue to exist.

That's irontreponsironradio .com. Click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, I want to remind you about the three -day

Bible conference coming up right here in Pennsylvania in Lancaster County, to be more specific, and even more specifically in Mannheim, Pennsylvania.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries will be our keynote speaker for a three -day conference being hosted by Mid -Atlantic

Reformation Society on the theme, The Gospel at War. That's Friday, September 15th, through Sunday, September 17th.

And on one of those three days, Saturday, September 16th, there will be a debate between Dr.

White and Dr. Gregory Coles on the theme, Is Gay Christian a

Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? Dr.

Gregory Coles, who is Dr. White's opponent in this debate, does identify as a gay

Christian. So, if you want to get the best price possible on registering for this three -day event, please go to futureofchristendom .org,

futureofchristendom .org. Also, if you are a man in ministry leadership, I hope that you will attend my next

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, on Thursday, October 5th, from 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. Not only will you be fed for free and hear an excellent message for free and enjoy the fellowship of other men in ministry for free, every man in attendance will leave that place with a heavy sack of brand -new books, personally selected by me, donated by Christian publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom. Our guest speaker this October is

Jeff Knoblet, a really powerful, powerful preacher of the gospel who is pastor of Grace Life Church of the

Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama. So that's Thursday, October 5th. If you'd like to register, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line. Also, last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid,

Christ -honoring church like First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and I can help you find a church, possibly, no matter where you live in the world.

I've helped many people all over the globe find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too if you are without a church home.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I Need a Church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question for Pastor Eric McClanahan.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

We're discussing worship wars. And right before the break, I was saying, and perhaps you will agree or disagree with me, that we even have to be leery or hesitant of outright condemning all worship music that to our ears is definitely utilizing a modern melody, a melody that's unfamiliar to us that would likely be totally unfamiliar to Christians of decades past and centuries past, just automatically writing it off.

And I think that some of the litmus tests are as if the music riles up the hearers into a state of sexual arousal because even the nearly every time you ever hear a famous, legendary rock performer, a musician or singer, they will tell you that the very intention of rock and roll is to sexually arouse people.

And that is not even necessarily just involving the lyrics. There are sounds that definitely evoke different moods.

There are sounds that evoke serious contemplation and meditation.

There are sounds that evoke violence or violent thinking.

There are sounds that evoke frivolity and hilarity and silliness.

And there are also sounds that may be conducive to worship that are even modern. So do you agree with me that we have to be hesitant to just immediately stamp with a reject stamp music that may be modern just because it's modern?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we've got to discern, you know, really it's all aesthetics.

It's not just the music. I mean, it's the lighting, right? It's the arrangement of the congregation to those preaching or leading worship.

So, yes, it's not just the style. Let me go a little bit further because I think it will help us kind of pull that apart and kind of maybe ask some of the right questions.

But I do want to throw one more thing out there that I think speaks to that, which is that in our discipleship of Christ, and part of what

I think the Church is trying to do, well, it's to pull us into a way of life, a form of life that is different from the world, right?

I mean, the ecclesia, that word itself, really means the called -out ones. So the Church is literally people called out from the world in obedience to Christ.

So in our hearts and minds and souls, we are set apart, right?

We are set aside, literally pulled out of the world. So if we have—and

I think this will help answer the question—if we have morals and virtues and a way of life and commitments and even financial strategies that are going to be different from the world, well, then shouldn't our worship be a little bit strange?

So it's not just the form. It's, I think, the content of the form.

But I think some forms probably should be off -limits. So for me,

I—and this is kind of an old argument, but that a trap set, like a drum set, should not be used in worship because it utilizes the backbeat.

I don't know if that's kind of part of what you're talking about. But the backbeat has a kind of groove to it that is arguably—some make the case kind of sexual in nature.

I don't know if I would go that far. I just think it's probably an inappropriate instrument for worship.

Now, are all drums inappropriate for worship? Not at all. I think many drums are native to particular cultures and absolutely should be used in worship.

You know, we used to have folk music at one of our services. So I think that they would sing

Hank Williams songs. Well, I think some of those old gospel songs are perfectly fine. You know,

I would argue that we should probably use acoustic music, though, rather than electronic music. I think that's a form that would be worth considering.

You know, we have a pipe organ instead of an electric organ. If you can afford it, I think it'd be better to have a smaller pipe organ than a larger electric organ with more diverse sounds, etc.

But I think there's even a difference in sound that comes out of a speaker versus comes out of a pipe. There's a way it feels in the room.

There's a way that it encourages and invites singing. After all, a pipe organ and a human voice make their sound in much of the same way.

So what I would say is that there are many things that good authentic worship could look like.

It doesn't have to look like what we call the Western rite. It doesn't have to be Bach music. It doesn't have to be what's in my hymnal.

I mean, there's authentic Orthodox worship happening all over the world. But here's what I would like to do.

I would like to lay out what I would consider to be kind of the minimum you would need in a worship service for it to accomplish what

I've talked about, those things that worship ought to accomplish, being a form of our discipleship or being a formative process of our discipleship, calling us out from the world.

So let me give you this list real fast, Chris, and you can tell me if you think some of these things are – maybe my list is too long, maybe it's too short, but here we go.

I'm going to try to go fast. Things our worship service should include pretty much, if not every week, most weeks.

I would say confessing our sins. You know, Psalm 32, Psalm 51, kind of the classic confession of sins psalms.

I would say the singing of psalms and hymns, Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 would speak to that.

Offering praise and worship of God, I hope that's quite obvious. But, you know, you look at something like Revelation 5 or Thomas, you know,

Luke 24, my Lord and my God pray – you know, there's worship and praise of God all over the Bible. Even people who do contemporary worship agree with that.

Praying for those who are in power and for those who are sick. You know, 1 Timothy 2 and James 5 speaks of the need for that kind of prayer.

We call it intercessory prayer, intercessions in our liturgical tradition. Preaching, again,

I think everyone would agree that preaching ought to be a part of our gathering. I would say celebrating the

Lord's Supper. You know, do this in remembrance of me. I think you could basically understand that to be whenever you guys get together and talk about me,

I want you to do this as well. So, of course, Lutherans are sacramental. We have a high view of the Lord's Supper, so that's maybe a difference between us.

There's a wide range, I think, probably in, you know, Baptist circles as to how often and what you think of the

Lord's Supper. I don't want to debate all that. But I think that, generally speaking, celebrating the Lord's Supper would be a part of worship. Taking up an offering.

No one wants to argue with that, right? So that's probably part of your worship service. Receiving a benediction.

Number six, right at the end of Paul's letters, pretty much all have a benediction. Sharing the peace of Christ. Right?

As Paul did in his letters once again. Jesus describes us as blessed are the peacemakers. So we want to have a time in our worship service where we're saying to one another, the peace of the living

Christ be with you. Right? Not just like, hey, are you going to see the Cubs game later this afternoon? Right?

But actually we're sharing that peace. And then, of course, the famous, you know, Passage Acts 242.

You know, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.

So a lot of what I said is captured in that. So anything on that list that, you know, maybe something

I should add to that list or something that I can take off, you know? Well, to start with, something to add to the list.

I was distracted just very quickly. I heard most of what you said.

I was distracted by an email that came in. But did you mention the reading of Scripture?

You know, I must have assumed the reading of Scripture. So, yeah, I need to make that more explicit.

But, yes, like in our service, we read four lessons. You know, an Old Testament, a Gospel, a

New Testament, and a Psalm. So I assumed too much there, didn't I? And, of course, the sermon itself.

Yeah, preaching. I've got preaching on the list. One caveat I have is the confession of sin.

I believe that because this truth has been abused,

I even was alerted to a very tragic fact by a number of unconnected people who warned me about a certain church, even though it professes to believe strongly in the doctrines of sovereign grace,

Reformed theology, Calvinism. They took this idea, this biblical idea of confession of sin, public confession of sin, to not only an unbiblical extreme but a wicked extreme.

They even had young women get up to the podium to confess their sexual sins in detail.

Oh, my gosh. And I was not only outraged but disgusted because I immediately thought, as many people likely will, that there are men in leadership of the church that insisted upon this that were probably, unfortunately, getting off on that.

That, to me, is pretty sick. So I think that when it comes to the confession of sin—

I'll tell you— Go ahead. No, I'll tell you. In our hymnal, what we do is there's a corporate rite of confession and forgiveness where we all say the same thing at the same time, which is fairly generic but biblical.

I confess I'm in bondage to sin and cannot free myself. I've sinned against you in thought, word, and deed by what

I've done, by what I've left undone, et cetera. And the pastor offers what I'd call a passive word of forgiveness where he declares them forgiveness.

He declares forgiveness unto them, in essence. I always do that at the baptism. And technically, it's really done before the service starts.

That's kind of how we do it. It's the start of the service, but technically it's a separate rite. And I'm not opposed to private confession as well, but obviously confession for us is not a sacrament.

Even though Lutherans are sacramental, we got rid of that as a sacrament itself. But I do think there's a practical benefit to there being a time where we say we are sinners and we have sinned and we need forgiveness.

And I say this to newlyweds or couples who want a marriage in the church, but maybe for whatever reason they haven't been to church in a while and I want them to go back.

And I say, hey, guess what, guys? When you guys get married, you're going to sin against one another. And if you look at many of these elements of the liturgy that I just listed, it's going to be hard to go to church on a regular basis with your family who you're going to sin against and who's going to sin against you and not be reconciled if you have any integrity at all.

Because you're going to admit that you're a sinner, that you need forgiveness. You're going to share the peace of Christ.

How awkward would that be if you're holding a grudge, right? You're going to defame Christ right there in your own household if you don't acknowledge – if you don't want to share the peace with others.

And then you're going to receive the Lord's Supper. All of these things are things that bring people together, that bring about reconciliation, that bring about peace and harmony.

And so my argument isn't that it needs to be super formal and that you chant

Renaissance music or something like that, although it could be argued that the

Baroque era has lovely music, and it's worth hearing from time to time. But it's that these are kind of the sine qua nons,

I guess, the absolute, the bare essentials of Christian worship. That's really my argument. And so that can be done with guitars.

That can be done with pan flutes. That can be done with African drums.

But I would say even if I were a Christian missionary and I were going into parts of the world as a missionary and I was bringing the gospel to new parts of the people and I were putting a worship service together, it would include those elements.

Because I think those elements have practical value, and I think they help us form as disciples. And by the way,

I do think there is a danger to the charismatic leader, right? We've seen failure after failure after failure of these charismatic men that build up these churches who have these incredible followings, but they're not forming people as disciples.

They're attracting crowds, but when the time comes to say the truth, they either don't do it or they have a tremendous moral failing.

So I'm not interested in that either, right? So yeah,

I do think, though, that as I mentioned before, it's not just the music. It's also the space, the architecture.

Not that that's an end -all, be -all, but it can be helpful. It can be useful. Even if you don't have a lot of money, you can do a lot of smart things with space.

I think the fact that churches are now basically gigantic boxes with theatrical lighting and stages,

I'm not a fan. For the same amount of money, you could do something that lets in natural light.

I think there's a benefit to that sort of thing. So yeah, so that's kind of – those are kind of my – my argument is that traditional worship, so to speak, preserves those things well.

But again, these words actually are not even helpful. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's good, and traditional worship, in a sense, is also contemporary.

The gospel's contemporary in a sense that it's of the times. I mean, do people still need to hear the gospel?

Well, yes, then the gospel is contemporary. So I'm not necessarily interested in playing off the band against the organ per se.

What I want people to do is think about what is facilitating a mature, authentic walk with Jesus Christ?

What is building that? What is feeding that? And so ultimately,

I think that there are aspects of worship that must do that and do that better than others.

Well, we have a listener in South Central Pennsylvania, Joseph, who said,

If I heard correctly, you were speaking before advocating the use of native drum music.

Can that not be dangerous if this kind of music conjures up the pagan lifestyle and ritual of the tribes before Christianity had conquered their lives?

That's a great question, and I'm speaking in huge generalities.

What I'm saying is that – and by the way, yes, it could. If that drum was used to summon what we would consider to be demons, then the missionary, understanding this, would say that is not something we're going to use in our worship.

By that token, you could say, does modern rock music conjure demons, like you said earlier,

Chris? It's a question of discernment. So there are some cultural artifacts that are,

I think, safe to say neutral. I mean, I'm a presuppositionalist, so I understand there's no ultimate neutrality.

But I think that there are some cultural instruments, if you will, using that term as broadly as possible, that are relatively neutral.

That can be used in worship. I mean, I think the acoustic guitar can be used in worship.

Also, though, I think it's a little bit lame if Westerners, say, want to incorporate non -native drums into their worship.

So I'm not a fan of that. I'm a fan of folk music, because folk music comes from the people.

Most of CCM is corporately produced and commercially produced and produced to make money. And so I generally have a pretty big distrust of music that isn't coming from the people organically, but is being produced for money.

So I guess it would be a case -by -case basis. But yes, I would say that if any instrument has a tie to a pagan practice, then it ought not to be repurposed in Christian worship.

Yeah, I even recall that there was complaints coming out of the former

Soviet Union from pastors who were dismayed. They were upset that American Christian rock was becoming popular over there, because some of these people who are

Christians were apparently tortured with heavy metal music being blared into their ears.

In fact, we even saw some of that in Waco, Texas, if you recall.

The FBI was doing that to the British Davidians. Now, this brings up another issue.

I love some Christian rock. I love Skillet, John Cooper's group.

But I do not want that in a worship service. And I think that there is a liberty for Christians to enjoy music on their own that would be inappropriate for a worship service.

Now, when I say inappropriate for worship service, I'm not saying that Christians have the liberty to listen to sexualized, perverse music, or music that promotes violence, or music that promotes greed.

And that pretty much covered 99 % of the rap music, although there are brilliant and gifted

Reformed Christian rappers whose lyrics are rich with theology.

As much as I even love that, I wouldn't want it happening in a worship service. But don't you think that that's a proper delineation that Christians can have?

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, these are important distinctions to make, and what is it that we're – that's why the question is, what are we trying to accomplish in worship?

But outside of worship, I'm not one of these people that says, well, 24 -7 is worship.

Well, in a manner of speaking, I mean, how well you – I don't know, milk the cow could be seen as an act of worship because you're thankful to God for the provision of the cow and the milk or something like that.

But no, it's okay to have formalized times for the congregation to worship. And yes,

I think that if you want to listen to devotional music or have a Christian rock band or, I don't know, a rapper, it's not my thing.

But if they want to spread the gospel in that way through that medium, okay, cool.

Maybe that's a good thing. But yes, I think that there are distinctions in worship and non -worship settings.

We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who asks, are the debates that you are promoting with Dr.

James R. White going to be live -streamed? Yes, they should be live -streamed, providing the technology works, and they'll be recorded and uploaded to YouTube anyway.

So yes, fingers crossed because crazy things happen, but I am open to live -streaming them.

And I think – yes, I'll just say yes.

We are going to our final break. If anybody would like to send in a question,

I urge you to do it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. We'll be right back with Evan McClanahan right after these messages from our sponsors.

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War.

September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference. Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating

Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,

Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the sixth

Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reformed Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group, and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ. This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

Nessie Olin 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. I'm Dr.

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the

Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr.

Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. Getting a driver's license.

Running a cash register. Flipping burgers. Passing sixth grade. Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Hereford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

Hi, this is John Samson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak.

And have grown to love, Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711

That's 631 -696 -5711

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio And please make note of the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey.

It is gcbc -nj .org gcbc -nj .org

So ignore the website that you heard in the commercial. I also wanted to remind you that those of you who hear this program every day know that one of our major sponsors is the

Historical Bible Society. Please don't forget that that organization was founded by Daniel P.

Buttafuoco, attorney at law, a serious injury and medical malpractice attorney.

So if you or someone that you know and love is the victim of a serious injury or medical malpractice, no matter what state in the 50 states of the

United States they live in, please call Dan Buttafuoco at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or visit his website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com

Please always mention Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Evan McClanahan and I wanted to make a couple of notes about things

I was saying before the break. People who listen to the show will note that I love rock music because very often my commercials are accompanied by rock music or have a rock music performance as a music bed, as they call it, or as in the case with the

G3 conference ed, a jazz fusion background performed by the late

Larry Coryell and the late Alphonse Mouzon who created that song that I love,

Back Together Again. But as much as I love it, I don't want it in a worship service. And the last thing

I wanted to say is I'm wondering if you would agree with me that I don't believe there is anything at all wrong with a church that does not use that kind of music in a worship service to have concerts and things like that that do utilize that.

Yeah, I think there are different kinds of events that churches host. I mean, I host debates in our sanctuary.

You know, that's where we normally have worship services for believers, but I've had atheists and they're railing against God, because I think there's an overwhelming good, right, where we're arguing for the truth.

We're using that space as a forum to argue for the truth, and hopefully my debater is better than the other guy.

So yes, there are definitely different mediums and different events and that sort of thing that can take place in a worship space.

Hey, wait a minute. You don't want mediums in the church, do you? I should have said media.

As I said, the plural of medium is media, so yes. No, no mediums.

Although, yeah, you know, actually the communion rails kind of act in some ways as mediums, I guess. But anyway, that's a whole other thing.

I just wanted to summarize with a couple of questions. Yeah, yeah. I mean, really, the summary is a few questions, which is, okay, well, what's the state of Christianity today?

I think everyone in America knows what the state of Christianity in America is. They know what it is. I don't know if, you know, contemporary

Christian music sped up the decline of American Christianity or it slowed it down.

There's no way that we can really know. But I do know that Christianity is supposed to be a counter -cultural movement that doesn't look like the world, and Christians are supposed to be pulled out from the world.

So here's my basic question, which is, if we end up looking like the world, what do we expect the response from the world to be?

If we're not offering something different, not only in terms of our substance, but also our forms,

I don't think we should be terribly surprised when the world says, well, they have really nothing to offer. And, you know, there's also some anecdotal evidence,

I think, that young people are attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and even the

Latin Mass versions of Roman Catholicism, in part because I think they're looking for some truth and substance in something different.

They don't want the same old drivel. Yeah, they know that the world is doing that kind of music better than the churches utilize it.

Exactly. We're always going to be a second -tier version of it. And last thought, if you don't think that there's a lot of competition in the contemporary

Christian kind of movement, well, I think you're sadly mistaken. I think that's what happens in a lot of these churches.

They really look down on more traditional churches. You know, we're old -fashioned. We're fuddy -duddies or whatever.

And a lot of these churches end up in competition, pulling people out of traditional churches for the cool hip thing.

That's not the mission of the church. The mission of the church shouldn't be to, you know, just sheepsteal.

Right? If we really do want to reach people, then do so. Fine. But when people leave churches that are called boring because they don't want to be associated with that anymore,

I think it becomes a problem. So anyway, there's a lot more to talk about, but hopefully we've hit some highlights and given some people something to think about.

And I want to remind our listeners about the website of First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas, where my guest is the pastor, flhuston .org.

Thank you so much for being, once again, such a superb guest. I look forward to your return to the program on the 31st of August, which is a

Thursday. And I want to thank our listeners for listening and submitting questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.