August 16, 2023 Show with Rev. Evan McClanahan on “Worship Wars”

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August 17, 2023

August 16, 2023 Rev. Evan McClanahan, moderator & occasional participant in one of the only continuously operating debate series in the country, the First Word Debate Series at First Lutheran, writer for The Everyman & The Federalist, & Pastor of the First Lutheran Church, Houston, TX, who will address: “WORSHIP WARS”

00:02: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father
00:08: James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister
00:13: George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron.
00:21: This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:14: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the 16th day of August, 2023.
01:28: Before I introduce my guest, I have a very urgent prayer request, and that is for my brother
01:34: Andy. Many of you who listen to this program regularly may have heard me make on -air prayer requests for him.
01:42: He resides in a local nursing home here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, ever since he was left completely paralyzed on his left side after a major stroke a number of years ago.
01:57: And he had a recent bout with pneumonia, which, by God's grace and mercy, he appears to have conquered.
02:07: But a new development has been brought to light that is life -threatening for my brother.
02:14: He has a blood contamination known as sepsis, which is deadly, and he went to the hospital two nights ago and demanded to be returned to the nursing home against the doctor's insistence.
02:30: They nonetheless obliged his demand, and he is back at the nursing home, which is a lot less safe place to be in his condition.
02:41: I was visiting him today, trying to convince him of the seriousness error of his decision, and I was basically speaking to deaf ears.
02:55: And thankfully, the conversation was interrupted by a nurse who was beginning the intravenous antibiotic session that he was urgently in need of.
03:10: So I will keep you updated on to his health, and I would plead with you to please pray for my brother
03:18: Andy. I am not at peace with his standing before God.
03:25: I'm not at peace with his profession of faith in Christ. So I would ask of you also, and perhaps first and foremost, that you pray for his salvation above everything.
03:37: But God willing, I will have a praise report for you in the near future, but time will only tell what our sovereign
03:46: Lord has in store for my brother. So thank you all for praying, and I know
03:52: I can count on my listeners, as you have always revealed to me through the hundreds of emails and responses to social media posts and so on, that you are, many of you are rallying behind me in prayer through not only this situation, but through others
04:12: I've experienced in the past. But I want to thank you all from the very depths of my heart. But today we have as a returning guest
04:20: Reverend Evan McClanahan, who is moderator and occasional participant in one of the only continuously operating debate series in the country, the
04:30: First Word Debate Series at First Lutheran. He is a writer for The Everyman and The Federalist and pastor of the
04:39: First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas. Today we're going to be addressing the very controversial theme,
04:45: Worship Wars. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Evan McClanahan.
04:53: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Once again, we had so much fun last time. We did a two for one.
05:00: Yes. So I'm going to try to talk faster this time so I don't steal your valuable airtime.
05:08: And we'll get it done in one go round. One shot. I hope that is not a revelation that you hate coming on this show.
05:16: No, no, no. Like I said, I hope this is not like a Band -Aid treatment. Let me rip this off like a
05:22: Band -Aid and get it over with. No, 100 percent not. Like I said, I'm very honored to be here. I just, you know,
05:29: I don't want to take up any more of your precious time than any of my thoughts warrant. But I'm looking forward to the talk today, and hopefully we'll get some listener feedback as well.
05:41: I'll try to ask some questions along the way. I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on, so it's not just going to be me talking for sure.
05:49: But this is definitely something I've thought about a lot. And actually, the one debate that we hosted at our church that I participated in, other than as a moderator, was on this question.
06:02: A friend of mine, Clinton Wilcox, and I did have a formal debate on kind of contemporary worship or,
06:10: I don't know, true Christian worship or something to that effect. And so I'm actually stealing –
06:15: I don't know if it's theft if you're stealing from yourself, but I'm kind of lifting some of the same material with some kind of updated thoughts.
06:22: Because as time goes on, we do have, you know, we do have some data.
06:27: We have more data coming in, right, on kind of the state of the church. And, in fact, we're in kind of the post -COVID era, if you will, right?
06:37: So I definitely – anyway, but if people wanted to see that, it's somewhere out there on YouTube on the
06:42: First Lutheran Debate YouTube channel or the First Lutheran channel. I don't know. Anyway, something to think about.
06:49: Well, since it's been a little bit – not too long, but a little bit since you've been on the program, why don't you remind our listeners about First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas?
07:01: Yeah, First Lutheran, it goes back to the 1840s in Houston, which for your East Coasters, I know that's like a young church.
07:10: But for those of us in Texas, it's pretty old. That's when the Germans started to come up through the
07:15: Gulf of Mexico. A lot of them stopped in Galveston, but a few kept on to Houston. And so we're a German immigrant church and gone through a lot of interesting denominational changes, became
07:25: Lutheran again after basically becoming independent for a number of years in 2001, and that was in the very, very – it wasn't quite so crazy at the time, but it became obviously kind of nutty, which was the
07:37: ELCA. We left that in 2011, and we are a traditional church pretty much in every sense of the word.
07:45: Our worship is – in fact, I'm holding right here our LVW, our 1978 hymnal, and there have been a few publishing houses that have tried to update it, and I don't think there's really much out there that's better quite yet.
08:02: It's not perfect by any means, but we still use a hymnal, no screens, no rock band. We had a fire in 2011.
08:08: We used that insurance money to get a brand -new pipe organ. We're very committed to these traditions.
08:16: But we do outreach. We have these debates. We do outreach to college students.
08:22: I'm part of Theology on Tap, which is kind of an informal kind of debate, evangelism, apologetics ministry.
08:31: We have a preschool. So I like to think that when it comes to worship, we hold on to traditions that have value that I'll be explaining here in this conversation, but we do a number of things to do outreach, and next time we talk in a couple weeks,
08:51: I'll be actually talking about that a little bit, kind of a vision for the church, maybe, dare
08:58: I say, kind of a different vision. Those words are controversial, but kind of a different vision for where the church is going to need to end up, being basically a wholesale community participant rather than just a place people show up to worship.
09:12: But when they show up to worship, you need to do it. Well, let's just say there are better ways to do it than others.
09:20: Well, you know, I have just, and believe it or not, this just popped into my head right now.
09:27: I have a suggestion for a motto for your
09:33: Theology on Tap. How about, All Stout, No Suds?
09:44: I like that. I'm pitching that. I'm pitching that. I'll give you credit, though. So, actually, that would be great for merch, you know, with the
09:52: Theology on Tap logo, All Stout. I love that. It's great. Yep. And if anybody wants more information about this fine congregation, go to, let's see.
10:06: Oh, man, I need a new pair of glasses. FLHouston .org,
10:13: FLHouston .org. Yep. The L, as always, when it's in lowercase, looks like an
10:20: I when you have bad vision especially. So it's FLHouston .org. And this is a conservative, confessional
10:28: Lutheran church, although the denomination does accept or believe in the ordination of women.
10:35: That is not a compulsory thing for individual congregations. Am I right? That is correct.
10:42: And as I've said before, I would be shocked if, you know, that were ever to happen at my church, my congregation.
10:48: But if it did, it would be long after I was gone. So, yeah, that's the reality.
10:53: Now, tell us about the debates coming up next year with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is a dear friend.
11:00: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad you asked, because actually today I put tickets on sale and put posts on my personal
11:07: Facebook page. I'll shoot an email out to my debate list and all that.
11:13: So I've got three nailed down. One is in process due to some scheduling difficulties.
11:19: One may not happen early next year. So I've got two with Dr.
11:26: James White and Trent Horn of Catholic Answers. The first is on solo scriptura.
11:31: And as I'm saying, you haven't heard it all before. There are some new arguments. Of course, if you listen to Dr.
11:37: White's podcast, he's pulling this apart already, so you're going to kind of get a preview.
11:43: But if you want to see them talk about it directly to one another with ample cross -examination, I've got 20 minutes each of cross -examination in the contract.
11:52: So we're going to have lots of cross -examination. And so it's on solo scriptura. So like I said, there are new arguments coming out.
11:59: New arguments from Trent Horn, not Dr. White. Yes, yes. Thank you. In fact, ironically, aren't they
12:05: Protestant arguments or arguments from a Protestant? Yes. Apparently he's using a book written by a
12:12: Protestant who, I guess, doesn't believe that Paul even wrote 2 Timothy, and yet he's – they're looking at, you know, the
12:19: God -breathed Theionoustos. That's the Greek word, Theionoustos. And so Trent Horn is kind of offering a different translation from God -breathed, which seems to be the literal meaning of that phrase.
12:32: And so therefore it's a debate ultimately about the nature of Scripture. And so what you don't want to see happen, even among our
12:38: Catholic friends, is a denigration of Scripture to get away from the authority of Scripture.
12:44: Right? I mean, even if you've got, like, a high value of Scripture and a high value of tradition, hey, at least you've got a high value of both.
12:51: Maybe we can work with that in some way. I mean, there's more to debate. But if you've got to lower the
12:57: Scripture and start talking about its ontological nature being in some way decreased, maybe it's not
13:02: God -breathed after all, etc., etc., well, that's a problem. So they're going to be pulling that apart. I think it'll be really interesting.
13:10: And then the Doctrine of Purgatory. Yes, again, in fact, I don't know if you hosted one of his Purgatory debates.
13:15: Yes, I did. The most infamous one with Peter Stravinskis. That was where an audience member during the
13:24: Q &A, tongue -in -cheek, it was a Protestant audience member who tongue -in -cheek asked
13:30: Peter Stravinskis, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact transcript of the debate in front of me, but the audience member said,
13:39: I heard you can lessen your time in Purgatory by giving a donation to the
13:46: Catholic Church. If that's true, who do I make the check out to and how much? And after an uproarious laughter occurred in the audience,
14:00: Stravinskis answered, hey, pay now or pay later. And I think that Roman Catholics in the audience, or at least many of them, were shocked by that.
14:10: I'm just assuming. Yeah, wow. There was an eerie silence and some moans. Wow. I mean, the moans may have been all from Protestants, but I don't think that every
14:21: Catholic was happy with that kind of a glib but very revealing answer.
14:28: Yeah. And I'll say, you know, I like Trenton Horne. I mean, you know, he has a YouTube channel that's doing pretty well and a podcast.
14:35: He just did like a three -hour debate with kind of a left -wing influencer named
14:40: Destiny on a kind of popular podcast among the young folks called
14:46: Whatever. And I actually hope to do a review of that debate on my podcast because I think there are some real –
14:54: I mean, I think he did an okay job. I think there are some real problems with it. But, you know, I give him credit.
14:59: He seems like a nice enough guy. And, you know,
15:04: I think Dr. White's a nice guy, and I think they'll – but, you know, they're both very serious about what they believe.
15:11: And purgatory, it gets to gospel issues, I mean, for sure. Oh, of course. I mean, it's sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ.
15:19: So it's right there. I mean, so it's kind of exciting, really, to get back to these Reformation debates, you know?
15:26: I mean, it's living history. So I'm really excited about that. I mean, I cut my teeth. When I got into apologetics, you know, it was, you know, kind of William Lane Craig and then, you know,
15:37: Dr. James White on YouTube. You know, that's kind of – and it was a lot of these Catholic debates, as I said on a previous show that, you know, some of which you were hosting.
15:45: So I just was shocked that anyone was still debating those topics. I kind of thought they were in some way settled or something.
15:55: But Dr. White does a great job of bringing them to the fore. And then after that – because as you all know, if you're fans of Dr.
16:01: White, you know he drives to his various locations. On his way back through Houston, so a couple weeks later,
16:09: March 9th, Saturday, March 9th, we've got a debate with Dale Tuggy of the
16:14: Unitarian Christian Alliance. And so yeah, that's going to be a classic
16:20: Trinitarian -Unitarian debate. The question is, is Jesus Yahweh? And the contract is signed.
16:27: We're good to go. So the fourth debate, I think everyone agrees on the topic.
16:33: But literally an hour ago, I was going back and forth with some emails, and I don't think we've got a date that works for all parties.
16:40: So we're going to see what we can do. But if that is pulled together, it would be on John 6.
16:48: And if you're a listener to, again, Alpha and Omega's podcast or The Dividing Line, you know exactly what
16:54: I'm talking about. But I'm not going to be the one to name names. So we'll see what we can pull together.
17:01: And while you're at it, or while we're at it, I might as well throw in a plug for a debate that I have arranged that's coming up very soon.
17:11: This is a debate I arranged for my friends at the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society. It is a part of a three -day conference where Dr.
17:20: White is the keynote speaker, Friday, September 15th through Sunday, September 17th, in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, which is
17:29: Lancaster County. The theme of the conference is The Gospel at War.
17:35: And Dr. White will be joined by other speakers who take different elements of how the gospel is at war with specific things in our world that involve both the church itself and things going on in society.
17:56: But on Saturday, September 16th, from 3 .30 p .m. to 6 .30 p .m.,
18:01: Dr. White will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles. And Dr. Coles identifies as a gay
18:08: Christian. And the theme of the debate is Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a
18:14: Member of Christ's Church? And if you want to register for that conference and debate, go to futureofchristendom .org,
18:24: futureofchristendom .org. Register as quickly as possible so that you get the best price possible.
18:31: And you'll be hearing more about that. But we are going to be discussing, when we return from our first commercial break, the theme of Worship Wars.
18:42: And if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own for Reverend Evan McClanahan, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
18:51: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
18:58: Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you vehemently disagree with the style of worship that takes place in your own church.
19:10: Perhaps you're even the pastor and you have those complaints, but obviously don't want to draw attention to your identity at this point.
19:19: We understand that. But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
19:26: We'll be right back with Pastor Evan right after these messages. Please do not go away. The Mid -Atlantic
19:32: Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring
19:42: Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.
19:49: Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.
19:58: The debate topic, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?
20:04: So come join us for the 6th Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day
20:12: Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the
20:21: Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.
20:29: Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.
20:47: I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
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29:48: Pastor Evan McClanahan, pastor of First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas, and we are discussing worship wars.
29:56: And I'm assuming, although I could be wrong, that this is intended to be a comparison and contrast between what has become known as traditional worship and contemporary worship.
30:12: Am I right? Yeah, I think so. But I even want to go a little bit deeper and kind of try to ask some foundational questions about what worship is, what it's trying to accomplish.
30:29: Who is God? Who is this God that we're worshiping? So let me—it's a big topic, obviously.
30:36: I don't know. It's not as debated as much as it used to be when the contemporary scene was kind of rolling on, you know, onto the scene,
30:44: I guess, in the 90s and 2000s. Now that's the mainstream. Now we're the weirdos. You know, now the pastor that wears a robe and a stole and, you know, we sing out of a hymn.
30:53: We don't have screens. You know, that's definitely the minority point of view now. But at one point, we were kind of the majority.
30:59: But I do want to challenge some basic notions that just because something old, it's good, or just because something is new, it's bad.
31:07: The question really is, what are we trying to do? So let me just ask some questions to kind of get the ball rolling here. CCM, Contemporary Christian Music, it's been around for,
31:18: I don't know, about 40 years or so. And part of the reason for CCM was to offer—well, we were told, it's right there in the name— a contemporary voice to the
31:29: Church, right, to reach the unchurched, right, all these people that weren't going to Church because Church was stodgy and old -fashioned and everything else.
31:37: And so CCM was going to grow the Kingdom or help grow the Kingdom by reaching those who would not or could not be reached by old -fashioned worship with, you know, vestments and organs and choirs and all of that.
31:51: Okay. So fine. Sounds good. So here's, I guess, a question.
31:57: We've been doing it long enough. You know, the data's in, right? So my question to the audience would be, what's exactly the state of American Christianity today?
32:10: Also, to what degree are CCM and the seeker -sensitive model or the attractional model or the
32:17: Church growth movement or the charismatic movement one and the same thing? You know, those things, after a while, they kind of get hard to pull apart.
32:26: And so those are realities, though, that we've got to pull apart, you know, because it could be that, you know, some contemporary music is just fine, but if it has the goal of, you know, the
32:38: Church growth movement, those are not necessarily good goals. Likewise, there's issues in the charismatic movement, and yet they use contemporary music.
32:46: So anyway, so more questions for the audience. What's the purpose of worship? You know, what is it for?
32:53: Now, you might think that's kind of an easy series of questions, but in fact, it's not. Christians do not agree on what worship even is or who it's for.
33:03: I mean, just to give you a little taste, is Christianity – I'm sorry, is worship for Christians, or is it for non -Christians?
33:11: I was at a Church conference just last week, and one of our speakers in our tradition, which is a pretty, you know, fairly traditional conservative, you know,
33:19: Lutheran tradition, was that – how was it said exactly? Basically, the
33:24: Church is the only organization founded for the sake of others, something to that extent.
33:33: And on the one hand, that's kind of a pious -sounding thing, but on the other hand, it's just not true.
33:39: I mean, what about when Jesus says to Peter, feed my sheep? Is that not for the members of a
33:45: Church? So I think as a Church, you can have an outward and an inward focus. That's okay, and too much of one or the other is a bad thing.
33:53: But if worship is not for Christians, then you're going to have the results that I think are pretty clear, which is it's a mile wide but an inch deep.
34:04: A few more questions. If worship is primarily a time set aside to praise God, well, who is this
34:11: God? What's he like? How should we approach him? Are there any examples in the
34:18: Bible of God making himself known to mere mortals? And how did those men react?
34:26: Obviously, one thinks of, say, the burning bush or Isaiah 6 right off the bat. What are the most important characteristics of God that would dictate the way that we might approach him?
34:40: If we all agree that our primary mission is to be a disciple of Jesus and to make disciples of Christ, I mean, it's right there in Matthew 28 and 19, right?
34:51: Well, what role does worship have in that? Or are those two totally separate things? Is worship this thing that we do for our private piety and discipleship is the thing that we do for,
35:02: I don't know, our public exposure or to bring people into the faith? Or are these two things actually interconnected in some kind of deep, beautiful, profound way?
35:12: So in sum, these are the kind of questions I think we need to be asking in the church, but the question we usually end up asking is, what can we do to stem the crippling loss of members that we are experiencing at the moment?
35:24: How can we reach and attract more people into our group? And if we're kind of stuck on these kind of superficial questions, we're going to keep getting really superficial answers, and I think that's where we're at.
35:36: So I'm at the point now where I think the church needs to just reevaluate things.
35:43: I think we've got enough data on the worship wars in to where I don't know.
35:50: I think it's safe to say that it maybe hasn't accomplished all that everyone thought it would accomplish, you know, has.
35:58: So anyway, I don't know if you want to respond to any of that or you want me to just keep going or what? Well, I'd like to give perhaps a caveat and see if you agree or disagree with it.
36:09: Sometimes when we have in the church discussions like this, comparing and contrasting the idea of traditional versus contemporary worship, we have to recognize or at least should consider that there are modern
36:29: Christian hymn writers, songwriters, recording artists who sing and record their music in a way, in a manner and in a style that is very much reflective of the hymnody of the past.
36:47: The Gettys, for instance, I think have created some breathtaking music that very often at the church where I'm a member,
36:59: Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, we have a very traditional worship service, primarily using hymns from the
37:09: Trinity hymnal and also using a psalter that we have. Every pew has a psalter. But in the bulletin, they typically, at least a couple of times a month, will include a contemporary song.
37:24: But when sung, it just sounds like a hymn of the past where there is much biblical faithfulness and integrity in the lyrics.
37:36: The lyrics are biblically rich. They are not fluff. They are not man -centered. So don't we have to be hesitant to just throw around this idea that contemporary equals heretical or fluff or bubblegum or garbage?
37:52: Absolutely. I'm really glad you said that. There are some wonderful writers out there. One of the benefits of older stuff is that it's kind of gone through the filter of time.
38:01: So we're kind of left with the greatest hits of the church, whereas we're still trying to figure out what the greatest hits of the 2010s are.
38:10: One of my concerns with the modern, with the CCM movement, though, is that not many people are doing that kind of theological – there's just not enough people doing the theological reflection on the music.
38:20: I mean, the two biggest producers of CCM are Bethel and Hillsong, both of which are church bodies that are plagued with scandal, and I would say some pretty rotten theology that really is in contrast to Orthodox Christianity.
38:35: But yes, just because it's new doesn't mean it's bad, because everything that we like that's old was once new, even if it's a fourth -century hymn like Of the
38:49: Father's Love Begotten or something like that. Yes, at one point it was new, so it being old doesn't make it good.
38:55: Being new doesn't make it bad. I think what I would want is for the church to have the tools to evaluate, to do discernment, to kind of think this through.
39:03: And so I think as we talk through it, it'll be clear that I don't advocate too simple of an approach, but basically it's to give us tools to evaluate and kind of consider the purpose of it.
39:20: And you also brought up a good point that not everything old is good, and of course old is a relative term.
39:35: And please, my Fundamentalist Baptist friends, my independent Fundamentalist Baptist friends, do not take this as a broad -brushing insult, but very often when folks from that group of the church will use phraseology like that old -time religion and things that they cherish that they think are old are mid - to late -19th -century, early -20th -century contributions to the church that are not old.
40:10: When you compare them to things that are truly ancient in the church in the grand scheme of things.
40:17: And I have been at some Fundamentalist churches where some of the songs they sing, and remember
40:26: I'm not broad -brushing, I'm not saying every Fundamentalist church, but some of the songs they sing, even though they're almost 100 years old, perhaps a little over 100 years old, they sound silly.
40:39: They almost sound like something from a burlesque review, except they're using
40:48: Christian phraseology, and some of it is just basically reduced to the absolute minimal level of depth of anything that is a biblical concept.
41:08: Am I making sense here? Absolutely, and a lot of the problem with the contemporary stuff, if you really want to get into this, you can look at the influence of literary deconstruction.
41:22: It's made its way into the church. We're often living through music that is evocative, but not necessarily meaningful.
41:31: Well, I shouldn't say meaningful. It's not clear in what its meaning is. The Lord has given us this thing called language, and logic, and rules of language and logic, and great poets will use those rules to maybe stretch language, but to convey very particular meanings that cannot be gone beyond the words on the page.
41:54: But a lot of what contemporary Christian music is, and obviously this goes for contemporary music generally, and contemporary poetry, and probably texting, and a lot of the ways we communicate, they're not complete sentences.
42:10: They're not complete thoughts. They're not bound by the rules of grammar. They're snapshots of images.
42:17: It's one image after another. It's evocative language, but it's not arguing for anything. Whereas if I pick up this hymn,
42:24: I'm going to get four stanzas of beautiful English. Perhaps that's a translation, but still, where there are periods, and maybe there are semicolons, and exclamation points, and maybe it even rhymes, or whatever the case may be.
42:37: So I actually think actually what we want to argue for, even if it's contemporary, is just good grammar, because we want to convey – and this really gets back to the big question here, the big picture here, which is what are we trying to do in worship?
42:52: Are we trying to give people warm fuzzies? Are we trying to evoke emotions from people?
42:58: And this would be kind of my thesis statement, which is that worship is part of the formative process of discipleship.
43:06: So worship is part of that process that we go through to grow as disciples of Christ.
43:15: Now if that's the case, then that informs how you ought to worship, and it definitely does not rule out new music at all, so long as that new music is part of that process.
43:26: But if worship is meant to attract an audience, entertain people, bring them to tears, make them feel exuberant or joyous, now you have to question – well, obviously that's going to change the techniques that you employ, but I think at that point you have to question if it's even
43:43: Christian worship at that point. So I'll put it this way.
43:48: In sports, a good coach will say how you practice so you play. Well, in many respects,
43:55: I think our time in worship, it's like our practice. It's like we're learning the best.
44:00: We're learning the forms. We're doing the drills. We're being taught. And so then we play
44:06: Monday through Saturday. Not that you have to worship on Sunday per se. I understand people can't blah, blah, blah.
44:13: So worship is kind of like our practice time. It's our time of coaching. It's the time we are formed as disciples, and then
44:20: Monday through Saturday is that time that we go out as disciples. So to be clear, I am putting these things together, whereas I think what often happens is they're pulled apart.
44:30: Discipleship is your enthusiasm for Jesus that you do outside of the week, and worship is your time to, well, sometimes just basically be entertained.
44:40: But those are two contrary views of worship that are, I would argue, incompatible.
44:47: But let me give a couple of examples of how we think about this that I think is wrong compared to how other people think about discipleship in their own trades, which is very different.
45:00: So if – I mean, Chris, you and I would both agree that Christianity is kind of a serious pursuit, right?
45:06: We might even say life -or -death pursuit, something of eternal consequence.
45:11: So it's quite serious, okay? Christianity is quite a serious thing. Well, think about other disciplines that are maybe not that serious, but pretty serious, things like medicine or law or being an airline pilot or industrial production or steelmaking, for our
45:30: Pennsylvania friends, or competitive athletics or musical performance. All of those fields require an intense amount of preparation, discipline, practice, rehearsal before one is able to do those sorts of things.
45:47: So for example, if you are on the operating table and a doctor has a scalpel on his hand.
45:54: He's about to cut you open. They're about to put the anesthesia on you. What you don't want that doctor to say is, well,
46:01: I am so excited about this surgery. I failed every one of my classes. I didn't learn anything in med school.
46:07: I have no idea why they successfully graduated me. But let me tell you, I am so excited about this heart surgery today.
46:13: I have just never been more thrilled to perform surgery. I'm guessing as a patient, that would kind of freak you out, right?
46:21: I believe it would. I'd be freaked out even if it was the most brilliant surgeon in the world. But on top of that, that would be a real bone -chiller.
46:32: Exactly. So imagine, okay, we could do this all day, right? But let's say you're on an airplane, and the same thing. The pilot gets on, well, good day.
46:39: We're flying to Dallas today. Weather should be nice. I'm just so excited to be in the cockpit today. I've never flown this plane before, and I crashed it a couple times in the simulator.
46:47: But hey, I am so excited. I sometimes get the impression that Christians believe discipleship is nothing but enthusiasm for Jesus.
46:58: And it's not worthy enough to actually go through a process of formality by which we are formed, right?
47:04: Or maybe I'm saying it incorrectly. But basically, if worship is a time for our formation and discipleship is being formed, well, then
47:15: I think we ought to take it seriously. Now, I'm not saying that worship is the only tool of discipleship by any means.
47:20: I mean, we also need to do Bible study. We need to do private Bible study. We need to have moral accountability to one another.
47:28: Our stewardship is a part of our discipleship. So it's a fully -orbed thing, but it's definitely there. And so, you know, if you look at, you know,
47:37: Jesus and what people called Jesus, you know, they called him a teacher. They called him rabbi. They also called him master.
47:43: They called him lord. And so, if being a disciple, I mean, the word literally means student, right?
47:50: We get the word discipline from it, for example. I don't think it's radical at all to suggest that to be a disciple of Jesus should be something of a formal process.
48:05: It's not to say it's not going to be without its extraordinary moments. You know, moments of answered prayer, moments of jubilation, moments of bittersweet sorrow, maybe, as you leave an old life behind and take on a new life of Christ, moments of joy when children are born or when people come to faith or people are healed, etc.,
48:26: etc. So there are definitely moments in the life of a Christian that are exuberant, that are joyful, where we're very enthusiastic.
48:36: But if discipleship is only seen as this kind of emotional or enthusiastic reality, it's likely to be short -lived.
48:45: And I seem to remember Jesus telling a parable about a seed that is thrown on different types of soil.
48:52: And some of that seed springs up quite quickly. There's a lot of excitement that the seed possesses to be alive and to grow, but it's not in good soil.
49:03: It's in rocky soil. It doesn't have any ability to have depth. And so it quickly dies off.
49:11: So like anything else meaningful in life, you know, heart surgery, being an airline pilot, being a mother, virtually anything you can think of meaningful is going to have
49:22: There's a learning process. There are things that we need to know. There's often a very formal process involved.
49:30: And so why is it that the American Christian Church is so quick to throw off formal processes by which we become an informed and enthusiastic disciple of Christ?
49:42: And I think basically it's because we just don't have the patience for it anymore, right? We just want to jump straight to the excitement, and if we can keep people at that level forever, then they'll stay a disciple of Jesus.
49:52: But they're not going to stay there at that level. And so I think that what we need is where exuberance in our walk with Christ is probably the exception to the rule, but in a lot of the
50:06: American evangelical church where, you know, CCM wholesale has been adopted. And again, it's hard to pull apart sometimes
50:13: CCM from, like, the bad theology of the attractional model, the church growth movement, charismatic movement, et cetera.
50:19: I grant that. But a lot of what you see is that exuberance is the rule.
50:25: It's not the exception. So that's essentially the fight, right? That is the worship war. I'm fighting for an understanding of Christianity and discipleship that is – understands that it's a more formalized process like anything else important in life, which is certainly
50:41: I think the model you see in the New Testament, over against a church culture that seems to be making it all about how we feel today.
50:52: And that's a little bit too simplistic of a critique, I understand. But hey, got to start somewhere.
50:58: So any thoughts or, you know, I'll just keep ranting and raving if you're not careful. Yeah, so I just don't know if I am necessarily as far to the right on this in regard to if you were to consider right being – or the right wing being traditional and the left wing being contemporary.
51:18: I don't know if there is something inherently unworshipful about more contemporary melodies that were not perhaps known to the church in decades and centuries past.
51:36: I believe that one of the keys to determine that is if the melody, rhythm, instrumentation becomes dominant, makes a song less of a congregational song.
51:57: There are certainly some songs that were designed to be sung and, quote, quote, performed by an individual or by a duet or a trio rather than an entire congregation.
52:14: And there is also clearly, even though there are some who say that melodies are morally and theologically neutral,
52:29: I don't buy that because as the author of – he wrote the book
52:37: Why Johnny Can't Preach, and he also wrote the book Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns, I think. And he demonstrated that there is a fallacy with this defense that all musical instrumentality and melodies are neutral.
52:57: He said just imagine that at a solemn occasion like a funeral of a loved one, there is an individual who breaks out a kazoo and starts playing something on the kazoo.
53:09: You would likely be outraged by that unless, of course, the dearly departed loved one was a lover of kazoos.
53:18: You would likely want to bring an abrupt halt to that performance.
53:25: But anyway, we have to go to our midway break right now, and we'll pick up where we left off there. If anybody has a question for Pastor Evan, send it to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.
53:38: ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the
53:47: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Evan McClanahan after these messages.
53:54: The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023,
54:00: The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring
54:06: Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.
54:12: Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,
54:23: Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the 6th
54:29: Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day
54:36: Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the
54:45: Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.
54:52: Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.
55:10: I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
55:18: G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
55:31: I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
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01:09:16: Before I return to my guest today, Pastor Evan McClanahan of First Lutheran Church in Houston, Texas, and our discussion on the worship wars,
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01:15:25: We're discussing worship wars. And right before the break, I was saying, and perhaps you will agree or disagree with me, that we even have to be leery or hesitant of outright condemning all worship music that to our ears is definitely utilizing a modern melody, a melody that's unfamiliar to us that would likely be totally unfamiliar to Christians of decades past and centuries past, just automatically writing it off.
01:16:03: And I think that some of the litmus tests are as if the music riles up the hearers into a state of sexual arousal because even the nearly every time you ever hear a famous, legendary rock performer, a musician or singer, they will tell you that the very intention of rock and roll is to sexually arouse people.
01:16:39: And that is not even necessarily just involving the lyrics. There are sounds that definitely evoke different moods.
01:16:52: There are sounds that evoke serious contemplation and meditation.
01:16:58: There are sounds that evoke violence or violent thinking.
01:17:04: There are sounds that evoke frivolity and hilarity and silliness.
01:17:11: And there are also sounds that may be conducive to worship that are even modern. So do you agree with me that we have to be hesitant to just immediately stamp with a reject stamp music that may be modern just because it's modern?
01:17:31: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we've got to discern, you know, really it's all aesthetics.
01:17:37: It's not just the music. I mean, it's the lighting, right? It's the arrangement of the congregation to those preaching or leading worship.
01:17:48: So, yes, it's not just the style. Let me go a little bit further because I think it will help us kind of pull that apart and kind of maybe ask some of the right questions.
01:18:02: But I do want to throw one more thing out there that I think speaks to that, which is that in our discipleship of Christ, and part of what
01:18:10: I think the Church is trying to do, well, it's to pull us into a way of life, a form of life that is different from the world, right?
01:18:18: I mean, the ecclesia, that word itself, really means the called -out ones. So the Church is literally people called out from the world in obedience to Christ.
01:18:28: So in our hearts and minds and souls, we are set apart, right?
01:18:33: We are set aside, literally pulled out of the world. So if we have—and
01:18:39: I think this will help answer the question—if we have morals and virtues and a way of life and commitments and even financial strategies that are going to be different from the world, well, then shouldn't our worship be a little bit strange?
01:18:54: So it's not just the form. It's, I think, the content of the form.
01:19:02: But I think some forms probably should be off -limits. So for me,
01:19:10: I—and this is kind of an old argument, but that a trap set, like a drum set, should not be used in worship because it utilizes the backbeat.
01:19:19: I don't know if that's kind of part of what you're talking about. But the backbeat has a kind of groove to it that is arguably—some make the case kind of sexual in nature.
01:19:29: I don't know if I would go that far. I just think it's probably an inappropriate instrument for worship.
01:19:36: Now, are all drums inappropriate for worship? Not at all. I think many drums are native to particular cultures and absolutely should be used in worship.
01:19:45: You know, we used to have folk music at one of our services. So I think that they would sing
01:19:50: Hank Williams songs. Well, I think some of those old gospel songs are perfectly fine. You know,
01:19:56: I would argue that we should probably use acoustic music, though, rather than electronic music. I think that's a form that would be worth considering.
01:20:06: You know, we have a pipe organ instead of an electric organ. If you can afford it, I think it'd be better to have a smaller pipe organ than a larger electric organ with more diverse sounds, etc.
01:20:16: But I think there's even a difference in sound that comes out of a speaker versus comes out of a pipe. There's a way it feels in the room.
01:20:23: There's a way that it encourages and invites singing. After all, a pipe organ and a human voice make their sound in much of the same way.
01:20:34: So what I would say is that there are many things that good authentic worship could look like.
01:20:40: It doesn't have to look like what we call the Western rite. It doesn't have to be Bach music. It doesn't have to be what's in my hymnal.
01:20:46: I mean, there's authentic Orthodox worship happening all over the world. But here's what I would like to do.
01:20:51: I would like to lay out what I would consider to be kind of the minimum you would need in a worship service for it to accomplish what
01:21:00: I've talked about, those things that worship ought to accomplish, being a form of our discipleship or being a formative process of our discipleship, calling us out from the world.
01:21:10: So let me give you this list real fast, Chris, and you can tell me if you think some of these things are – maybe my list is too long, maybe it's too short, but here we go.
01:21:19: I'm going to try to go fast. Things our worship service should include pretty much, if not every week, most weeks.
01:21:25: I would say confessing our sins. You know, Psalm 32, Psalm 51, kind of the classic confession of sins psalms.
01:21:33: I would say the singing of psalms and hymns, Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 would speak to that.
01:21:43: Offering praise and worship of God, I hope that's quite obvious. But, you know, you look at something like Revelation 5 or Thomas, you know,
01:21:51: Luke 24, my Lord and my God pray – you know, there's worship and praise of God all over the Bible. Even people who do contemporary worship agree with that.
01:22:01: Praying for those who are in power and for those who are sick. You know, 1 Timothy 2 and James 5 speaks of the need for that kind of prayer.
01:22:07: We call it intercessory prayer, intercessions in our liturgical tradition. Preaching, again,
01:22:13: I think everyone would agree that preaching ought to be a part of our gathering. I would say celebrating the
01:22:20: Lord's Supper. You know, do this in remembrance of me. I think you could basically understand that to be whenever you guys get together and talk about me,
01:22:28: I want you to do this as well. So, of course, Lutherans are sacramental. We have a high view of the Lord's Supper, so that's maybe a difference between us.
01:22:35: There's a wide range, I think, probably in, you know, Baptist circles as to how often and what you think of the
01:22:41: Lord's Supper. I don't want to debate all that. But I think that, generally speaking, celebrating the Lord's Supper would be a part of worship. Taking up an offering.
01:22:49: No one wants to argue with that, right? So that's probably part of your worship service. Receiving a benediction.
01:22:57: Number six, right at the end of Paul's letters, pretty much all have a benediction. Sharing the peace of Christ. Right?
01:23:03: As Paul did in his letters once again. Jesus describes us as blessed are the peacemakers. So we want to have a time in our worship service where we're saying to one another, the peace of the living
01:23:13: Christ be with you. Right? Not just like, hey, are you going to see the Cubs game later this afternoon? Right?
01:23:19: But actually we're sharing that peace. And then, of course, the famous, you know, Passage Acts 242.
01:23:25: You know, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.
01:23:31: So a lot of what I said is captured in that. So anything on that list that, you know, maybe something
01:23:40: I should add to that list or something that I can take off, you know? Well, to start with, something to add to the list.
01:23:47: I was distracted just very quickly. I heard most of what you said.
01:23:52: I was distracted by an email that came in. But did you mention the reading of Scripture?
01:24:03: You know, I must have assumed the reading of Scripture. So, yeah, I need to make that more explicit.
01:24:09: But, yes, like in our service, we read four lessons. You know, an Old Testament, a Gospel, a
01:24:15: New Testament, and a Psalm. So I assumed too much there, didn't I? And, of course, the sermon itself.
01:24:23: Yeah, preaching. I've got preaching on the list. One caveat I have is the confession of sin.
01:24:33: I believe that because this truth has been abused,
01:24:40: I even was alerted to a very tragic fact by a number of unconnected people who warned me about a certain church, even though it professes to believe strongly in the doctrines of sovereign grace,
01:24:59: Reformed theology, Calvinism. They took this idea, this biblical idea of confession of sin, public confession of sin, to not only an unbiblical extreme but a wicked extreme.
01:25:16: They even had young women get up to the podium to confess their sexual sins in detail.
01:25:26: Oh, my gosh. And I was not only outraged but disgusted because I immediately thought, as many people likely will, that there are men in leadership of the church that insisted upon this that were probably, unfortunately, getting off on that.
01:25:45: That, to me, is pretty sick. So I think that when it comes to the confession of sin—
01:25:52: I'll tell you— Go ahead. No, I'll tell you. In our hymnal, what we do is there's a corporate rite of confession and forgiveness where we all say the same thing at the same time, which is fairly generic but biblical.
01:26:07: I confess I'm in bondage to sin and cannot free myself. I've sinned against you in thought, word, and deed by what
01:26:13: I've done, by what I've left undone, et cetera. And the pastor offers what I'd call a passive word of forgiveness where he declares them forgiveness.
01:26:22: He declares forgiveness unto them, in essence. I always do that at the baptism. And technically, it's really done before the service starts.
01:26:30: That's kind of how we do it. It's the start of the service, but technically it's a separate rite. And I'm not opposed to private confession as well, but obviously confession for us is not a sacrament.
01:26:39: Even though Lutherans are sacramental, we got rid of that as a sacrament itself. But I do think there's a practical benefit to there being a time where we say we are sinners and we have sinned and we need forgiveness.
01:26:54: And I say this to newlyweds or couples who want a marriage in the church, but maybe for whatever reason they haven't been to church in a while and I want them to go back.
01:27:05: And I say, hey, guess what, guys? When you guys get married, you're going to sin against one another. And if you look at many of these elements of the liturgy that I just listed, it's going to be hard to go to church on a regular basis with your family who you're going to sin against and who's going to sin against you and not be reconciled if you have any integrity at all.
01:27:23: Because you're going to admit that you're a sinner, that you need forgiveness. You're going to share the peace of Christ.
01:27:28: How awkward would that be if you're holding a grudge, right? You're going to defame Christ right there in your own household if you don't acknowledge – if you don't want to share the peace with others.
01:27:37: And then you're going to receive the Lord's Supper. All of these things are things that bring people together, that bring about reconciliation, that bring about peace and harmony.
01:27:45: And so my argument isn't that it needs to be super formal and that you chant
01:27:52: Renaissance music or something like that, although it could be argued that the
01:27:57: Baroque era has lovely music, and it's worth hearing from time to time. But it's that these are kind of the sine qua nons,
01:28:07: I guess, the absolute, the bare essentials of Christian worship. That's really my argument. And so that can be done with guitars.
01:28:14: That can be done with pan flutes. That can be done with African drums.
01:28:20: But I would say even if I were a Christian missionary and I were going into parts of the world as a missionary and I was bringing the gospel to new parts of the people and I were putting a worship service together, it would include those elements.
01:28:32: Because I think those elements have practical value, and I think they help us form as disciples. And by the way,
01:28:40: I do think there is a danger to the charismatic leader, right? We've seen failure after failure after failure of these charismatic men that build up these churches who have these incredible followings, but they're not forming people as disciples.
01:28:56: They're attracting crowds, but when the time comes to say the truth, they either don't do it or they have a tremendous moral failing.
01:29:02: So I'm not interested in that either, right? So yeah,
01:29:08: I do think, though, that as I mentioned before, it's not just the music. It's also the space, the architecture.
01:29:18: Not that that's an end -all, be -all, but it can be helpful. It can be useful. Even if you don't have a lot of money, you can do a lot of smart things with space.
01:29:26: I think the fact that churches are now basically gigantic boxes with theatrical lighting and stages,
01:29:33: I'm not a fan. For the same amount of money, you could do something that lets in natural light.
01:29:41: I think there's a benefit to that sort of thing. So yeah, so that's kind of – those are kind of my – my argument is that traditional worship, so to speak, preserves those things well.
01:29:55: But again, these words actually are not even helpful. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's good, and traditional worship, in a sense, is also contemporary.
01:30:03: The gospel's contemporary in a sense that it's of the times. I mean, do people still need to hear the gospel?
01:30:09: Well, yes, then the gospel is contemporary. So I'm not necessarily interested in playing off the band against the organ per se.
01:30:20: What I want people to do is think about what is facilitating a mature, authentic walk with Jesus Christ?
01:30:31: What is building that? What is feeding that? And so ultimately,
01:30:38: I think that there are aspects of worship that must do that and do that better than others.
01:30:44: Well, we have a listener in South Central Pennsylvania, Joseph, who said,
01:30:52: If I heard correctly, you were speaking before advocating the use of native drum music.
01:31:03: Can that not be dangerous if this kind of music conjures up the pagan lifestyle and ritual of the tribes before Christianity had conquered their lives?
01:31:20: That's a great question, and I'm speaking in huge generalities.
01:31:26: What I'm saying is that – and by the way, yes, it could. If that drum was used to summon what we would consider to be demons, then the missionary, understanding this, would say that is not something we're going to use in our worship.
01:31:44: By that token, you could say, does modern rock music conjure demons, like you said earlier,
01:31:50: Chris? It's a question of discernment. So there are some cultural artifacts that are,
01:31:57: I think, safe to say neutral. I mean, I'm a presuppositionalist, so I understand there's no ultimate neutrality.
01:32:06: But I think that there are some cultural instruments, if you will, using that term as broadly as possible, that are relatively neutral.
01:32:11: That can be used in worship. I mean, I think the acoustic guitar can be used in worship.
01:32:19: Also, though, I think it's a little bit lame if Westerners, say, want to incorporate non -native drums into their worship.
01:32:27: So I'm not a fan of that. I'm a fan of folk music, because folk music comes from the people.
01:32:33: Most of CCM is corporately produced and commercially produced and produced to make money. And so I generally have a pretty big distrust of music that isn't coming from the people organically, but is being produced for money.
01:32:46: So I guess it would be a case -by -case basis. But yes, I would say that if any instrument has a tie to a pagan practice, then it ought not to be repurposed in Christian worship.
01:32:57: Yeah, I even recall that there was complaints coming out of the former
01:33:07: Soviet Union from pastors who were dismayed. They were upset that American Christian rock was becoming popular over there, because some of these people who are
01:33:23: Christians were apparently tortured with heavy metal music being blared into their ears.
01:33:32: In fact, we even saw some of that in Waco, Texas, if you recall.
01:33:38: The FBI was doing that to the British Davidians. Now, this brings up another issue.
01:33:48: I love some Christian rock. I love Skillet, John Cooper's group.
01:33:55: But I do not want that in a worship service. And I think that there is a liberty for Christians to enjoy music on their own that would be inappropriate for a worship service.
01:34:09: Now, when I say inappropriate for worship service, I'm not saying that Christians have the liberty to listen to sexualized, perverse music, or music that promotes violence, or music that promotes greed.
01:34:23: And that pretty much covered 99 % of the rap music, although there are brilliant and gifted
01:34:31: Reformed Christian rappers whose lyrics are rich with theology.
01:34:38: As much as I even love that, I wouldn't want it happening in a worship service. But don't you think that that's a proper delineation that Christians can have?
01:34:47: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, these are important distinctions to make, and what is it that we're – that's why the question is, what are we trying to accomplish in worship?
01:34:59: But outside of worship, I'm not one of these people that says, well, 24 -7 is worship.
01:35:05: Well, in a manner of speaking, I mean, how well you – I don't know, milk the cow could be seen as an act of worship because you're thankful to God for the provision of the cow and the milk or something like that.
01:35:14: But no, it's okay to have formalized times for the congregation to worship. And yes,
01:35:20: I think that if you want to listen to devotional music or have a Christian rock band or, I don't know, a rapper, it's not my thing.
01:35:27: But if they want to spread the gospel in that way through that medium, okay, cool.
01:35:34: Maybe that's a good thing. But yes, I think that there are distinctions in worship and non -worship settings.
01:35:42: We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who asks, are the debates that you are promoting with Dr.
01:35:49: James R. White going to be live -streamed? Yes, they should be live -streamed, providing the technology works, and they'll be recorded and uploaded to YouTube anyway.
01:36:04: So yes, fingers crossed because crazy things happen, but I am open to live -streaming them.
01:36:12: And I think – yes, I'll just say yes.
01:36:18: We are going to our final break. If anybody would like to send in a question,
01:36:24: I urge you to do it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. We'll be right back with Evan McClanahan right after these messages from our sponsors.
01:36:33: The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War.
01:36:40: September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
01:36:47: We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference. Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating
01:36:54: Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,
01:37:02: Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the sixth
01:37:08: Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day
01:37:15: Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reformed Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the
01:37:23: Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.
01:37:31: Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.
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01:38:10: I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
01:38:23: And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.
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01:42:31: And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.
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01:42:44: Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.
01:42:53: Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my
01:43:03: Nessie Olin 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a
01:43:09: French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
01:43:20: Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.
01:43:30: For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.
01:43:38: That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. I'm Dr.
01:43:56: Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
01:44:04: Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the
01:44:12: Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr.
01:44:19: Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
01:44:32: Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
01:44:43: For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.
01:44:51: For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,
01:45:00: heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.
01:45:08: Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,
01:45:28: Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.
01:45:37: Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
01:45:45: Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.
01:45:59: Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.
01:46:05: For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.
01:46:13: That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.
01:46:23: That's liyfc .org. Getting a driver's license.
01:46:32: Running a cash register. Flipping burgers. Passing sixth grade. Do you know what they all have in common?
01:46:39: They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?
01:46:45: Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.
01:46:53: I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
01:47:04: That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents
01:47:09: God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
01:47:22: Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
01:47:33: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
01:47:41: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
01:47:47: I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the
01:47:52: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the
01:48:00: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the
01:48:09: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Samson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the
01:48:17: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the
01:48:25: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Hereford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the
01:48:33: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the
01:48:38: Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
01:48:44: Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew
01:48:50: Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:49:02: Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.
01:49:11: Hi, this is John Samson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the
01:49:20: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
01:49:32: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
01:49:41: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
01:49:48: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:49:57: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:50:02: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:50:11: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:50:18: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com I'm Dr.
01:50:30: Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak.
01:50:39: And have grown to love, Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.
01:50:48: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
01:51:06: Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
01:51:13: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.
01:51:22: For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net
01:51:28: That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711
01:51:37: That's 631 -696 -5711
01:51:42: Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
01:51:59: As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:52:13: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:52:23: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:52:30: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
01:52:37: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
01:52:42: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
01:52:56: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
01:53:05: .com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com
01:53:12: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654
01:53:22: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio And please make note of the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey.
01:53:39: It is gcbc -nj .org gcbc -nj .org
01:53:46: So ignore the website that you heard in the commercial. I also wanted to remind you that those of you who hear this program every day know that one of our major sponsors is the
01:53:57: Historical Bible Society. Please don't forget that that organization was founded by Daniel P.
01:54:03: Buttafuoco, attorney at law, a serious injury and medical malpractice attorney.
01:54:10: So if you or someone that you know and love is the victim of a serious injury or medical malpractice, no matter what state in the 50 states of the
01:54:19: United States they live in, please call Dan Buttafuoco at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or visit his website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com
01:54:30: Please always mention Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Evan McClanahan and I wanted to make a couple of notes about things
01:54:39: I was saying before the break. People who listen to the show will note that I love rock music because very often my commercials are accompanied by rock music or have a rock music performance as a music bed, as they call it, or as in the case with the
01:54:59: G3 conference ed, a jazz fusion background performed by the late
01:55:05: Larry Coryell and the late Alphonse Mouzon who created that song that I love,
01:55:11: Back Together Again. But as much as I love it, I don't want it in a worship service. And the last thing
01:55:17: I wanted to say is I'm wondering if you would agree with me that I don't believe there is anything at all wrong with a church that does not use that kind of music in a worship service to have concerts and things like that that do utilize that.
01:55:34: Yeah, I think there are different kinds of events that churches host. I mean, I host debates in our sanctuary.
01:55:41: You know, that's where we normally have worship services for believers, but I've had atheists and they're railing against God, because I think there's an overwhelming good, right, where we're arguing for the truth.
01:55:53: We're using that space as a forum to argue for the truth, and hopefully my debater is better than the other guy.
01:55:59: So yes, there are definitely different mediums and different events and that sort of thing that can take place in a worship space.
01:56:06: Hey, wait a minute. You don't want mediums in the church, do you? I should have said media.
01:56:11: As I said, the plural of medium is media, so yes. No, no mediums.
01:56:19: Although, yeah, you know, actually the communion rails kind of act in some ways as mediums, I guess. But anyway, that's a whole other thing.
01:56:27: I just wanted to summarize with a couple of questions. Yeah, yeah. I mean, really, the summary is a few questions, which is, okay, well, what's the state of Christianity today?
01:56:37: I think everyone in America knows what the state of Christianity in America is. They know what it is. I don't know if, you know, contemporary
01:56:46: Christian music sped up the decline of American Christianity or it slowed it down.
01:56:52: There's no way that we can really know. But I do know that Christianity is supposed to be a counter -cultural movement that doesn't look like the world, and Christians are supposed to be pulled out from the world.
01:57:04: So here's my basic question, which is, if we end up looking like the world, what do we expect the response from the world to be?
01:57:15: If we're not offering something different, not only in terms of our substance, but also our forms,
01:57:21: I don't think we should be terribly surprised when the world says, well, they have really nothing to offer. And, you know, there's also some anecdotal evidence,
01:57:31: I think, that young people are attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and even the
01:57:37: Latin Mass versions of Roman Catholicism, in part because I think they're looking for some truth and substance in something different.
01:57:44: They don't want the same old drivel. Yeah, they know that the world is doing that kind of music better than the churches utilize it.
01:57:52: Exactly. We're always going to be a second -tier version of it. And last thought, if you don't think that there's a lot of competition in the contemporary
01:58:00: Christian kind of movement, well, I think you're sadly mistaken. I think that's what happens in a lot of these churches.
01:58:06: They really look down on more traditional churches. You know, we're old -fashioned. We're fuddy -duddies or whatever.
01:58:12: And a lot of these churches end up in competition, pulling people out of traditional churches for the cool hip thing.
01:58:18: That's not the mission of the church. The mission of the church shouldn't be to, you know, just sheepsteal.
01:58:24: Right? If we really do want to reach people, then do so. Fine. But when people leave churches that are called boring because they don't want to be associated with that anymore,
01:58:35: I think it becomes a problem. So anyway, there's a lot more to talk about, but hopefully we've hit some highlights and given some people something to think about.
01:58:43: And I want to remind our listeners about the website of First Lutheran Church of Houston, Texas, where my guest is the pastor, flhuston .org.
01:58:54: Thank you so much for being, once again, such a superb guest. I look forward to your return to the program on the 31st of August, which is a
01:59:04: Thursday. And I want to thank our listeners for listening and submitting questions.
01:59:09: I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.