May 21, 2020 Show with Rosaria Butterfield on “The Gospel Comes With a House Key: Practicing Radically Ordinary Hospitality in a Post-Christian World (& Overcoming the Challenges COVID-19 Has Placed on Hospitality)”

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

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have a view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

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Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live -streaming at iron sharpens iron

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all happy Thursday on this 21st

day of May 2020.

I'm so thrilled to have back as a returning guest one of my favorite people to interview

Rosaria Butterfield a former lesbian and feminist who served in the English department and

Women's Studies program at Syracuse University from 1992 to 2002.

Having critical theory as her primary academic field specializing in queer theory.

Who was later transformed by the saving power of Jesus Christ and is now very happily married to a

conservative Christian pastor Kent Butterfield a first reform Presbyterian Church in

Durham, North Carolina.

Today we are going to be addressing her most recent book.

The gospel comes with a house key practicing radically ordinary hospitality in a

post -christian world and also Overcoming the challenges kovat 19 has placed

upon hospitality.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Rosaria Butterfield.

Thank you so much Chris, it's always a pleasure to be here with you.

Oh, it's always a pleasure to have you on.

And before we get into the topic at hand.

Why don't you let our listeners know something about first reform Presbyterian Church in Durham, North

Carolina?

We had the great privilege of meeting corporately last Lord's Day.

Praise God.

Praise God.

Exactly.

Exactly.

The the mayor of Durham had one set of Expectations and the governor

of North Carolina had another and then a first amendment loving

judge put forward a staying order so that churches at least for the next

two weeks will not be harassed and.

It was an amazing thing to sing the songs together after six weeks

of Meeting on zoom.

It was it was it was wonderful and you know, we we practice social distancing.

I think you sing better when you have a good distance between each other.

It was it was an amazing Opportunity and I'm so grateful.

So to my husband and our elders who are curry

and know that we need to be brave.

Amen, and I know that your congregation is in the reformed Presbyterian Church of North America Who are also

nicknamed the Covenant errs.

Yes, that is correct.

And one of the few things that I know that Can that separates you from other?

conservative reformed Presbyterian groups is that you practice exclusive psalmody and also

exclusively acapella at worship.

Yes, that is correct.

And I hope to pay a visit there one day.

Love to have you.

I've been meaning to travel to North Carolina to visit an alcohol

Rehabilitation ministry that I spent some time in when I was backslidden into that

sin and Hebron colony ministries in Boone, North Carolina,

and I've been meaning to get back there at some point and I would love to stop by while I'm passing through.

We would love to visit with you and to show you some good, North Carolina hospitality.

Great.

Well the website for that church if you want to look up more information about it is first

RPC Durham, that's d you are H a m dot org first fi

RST our PC for reformed Presbyterian Church Durham.

Do you are H a m org?

Well.

This book is.

Something that is really been put there is a challenge being put to it

because It involves hospitality and many of us have been living living like hermits

the past couple of months due to this Kovat 19 pandemic.

But before we go into Some of the ways that you think that we can overcome those challenges

I want to get into the heart of the book itself, and I want to first read

a Commendation written by one of my other favorite guests Carl Truman.

Carl Truman says of this book one of the hallmarks of the people of God is supposed to be hospitality.

But in an age of commuter churches Towns disemboweled by shopping malls and

lives that are over scheduled and full of ceaseless activity.

Hospitality is such something which like true friendship is at a premium.

In this book Rosaria Butterfield makes a bold case for putting hospitality back into the essential

rhythm of the church's daily life.

She sets the bar very high and there is plenty of room here for disagreement on some of the

proposals and details but the but the basic case that church is to be a

Community marked by hospitality is powerfully presented and persuasively

argued.

That's dr. Carl R. Truman who I hope to get back on this program.

Soon.

The.

One of the things I know about hospitality is that when I hear about people

who are disgruntled and hurt and.

They.

When I ask them about a church.

That they have been visiting it might even be a church where I am a member or another church.

They may say I'm not going back there because nobody was warm to me.

Nobody reached out to me.

And of course that could be real or imagined.

But if you could.

Set forth the the driving force behind you writing the book to begin with.

Right, right.

Well, I mean very, you know, many many people over these years have have wanted to know

how Ken and Floyd Smith Reached out to me 21 years ago when I was a gay rights

activist and they were conservative.

You know Christian pastor and pastor's wife who lived in my neighborhood and I think just the you know just the juxtaposition

of those those categories is somewhat mind -blowing and and What and so I've you know

over the years but been asked to just explain how that happened.

And so the book itself is meant to do that.

But but it's also more than that.

Of course, it's not just a story of what to lead to the

hospitality Smith.

It's also a little window into what my husband Kent Butterfield and I

Practice today and part of you know The back story on us is that for years and

years and years Kent and I were the only believers in our families until our two youngest

until our two youngest children came to faith and that my mother came to faith on her deathbed and so

when you are you know a Christian on the front line of things

which I would say would be any Christian and No one in your family Can share with

you that union with Christ and that love for Christ and that optimism.

That hope that comes with a Christian life.

It's very very lonely.

And so because Kent and I understood loneliness.

We.

We were I Don't know driven compelled.

There might be a stronger verb there to describe What how we

were blessed and and what we do to try to use Hospitality to do some very

basic things.

To seek the stranger.

Because strangers don't fall from the sky.

They never have you know to seek the stranger to Welcome the stranger as a

neighbor and if God so wills to watch that neighbor become part of the family of God and that

To live like we

share a certain worldview and gather together two hours a week.

That was really the the impetus behind the book.

And.

You know, I've heard many times Conservative

Bible believing Christians.

Mock our.

Leftists friends those who who are In opposition

or in disbelief when it comes to the inerrancy of Scripture.

They they mock the leftists when they Bring up the fact that

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of a lack of hospitality and that there's no mention of homosexuality.

But I think it's equally wrong for we who are believers in biblical inerrancy

and who love the scriptures and.

Who have a.

Love for truth allegedly.

We leave that out because that was a part of God's Wrath towards Sodom and Gomorrah.

It certainly was.

Homosexuality was a part of it a major part of it.

But there was a lack of hospitality there, right?

Right and there's actually an interesting connection there, too because you know.

Certainly as someone who spent many years in the gay community in New York.

During these, you know first wave of the AIDS epidemic there was a great deal of

gathering together and breaking down barriers and caring for one another and

You know turning homes into AIDS hospices and and doing some, you know, very remarkable

Work, but that's not hospitality.

That's that's liberal communitarianism.

At hospitality is it has a very specific Christian Impetus so

I would say even you know, even in Genesis 19 There would be

almost no way for that particular to the community of Sodom to to practice hospitality

because The fundamental truth of hospitality is that you you love your neighbor

not in the way you feel most comfortable but in them so,

you know, there's a link there, but definitely when I met Ken and Floyd Smith part of my comfort and

entering their home and Entering Christian hospital was it was

familiar to me because at that point at least you know I mean in terms of externals.

But a good bit of

what I wasn't prepared for in Ken and Floyd

Smith's home.

With family devotions time when Ken would just say, okay, we're going to stop talking

now and I'm going to read this passage of Scripture and We're going to talk about it and then we're going to pray

about our concerns and we're going to leave them at the throne of grace we're not that's what we're going to do we're going to leave them right there

and That was really startling to me because I will tell you that before I was a

Christian I think I lived in a constant state never you could never let your

guard down.

I mean, how could you on what grounds it wasn't safe and everybody knows it, but that's one of the

you know Imperatives of the Christian life.

Thank God for all because God is God and and the

Lord Jesus Christ is the king of kings and the power of the Resurrection is something that we

live through

taking

that to

hospitality.

It's just it's easier.

Anyway, it this is this is

my domain there's some pretty simple things that you that you do when you

want to Put when you want to share with your neighbors why you believe what you

believe.

But you know one important thing to remember is it means that there will be awkward moments.

You know, this is not better homes and garden.

This is not Hospitality where nobody's ever uncomfortable.

That's just that's just not even real.

So I think Christians need to just embrace the fact that awkward doesn't mean you're doing the wrong thing.

Because in any kind of moment if you're really going to be a Christian in this world.

The conversation has to shift, you know.

It's got a shift and if you're going to shift it, there might be an awkward

pause.

So what?

People don't die of awkward.

You know, it might be a good idea since you've been mentioning it even though we've already conducted an

interview with you Exclusively on your testimony

and also on your previous books.

Why don't you in a summary form tell our listeners just exactly what you mean how

God used the hospitality of A pastor and his wife to

eventually lead you to Christ and also to lead you to your husband.

Right and we've been married for 19 years on the 19th.

Oh, wow.

Best 19 years of my life.

Oh, praise God.

Well, I was a professor at Syracuse University and very much to

do good in the world.

I I you know was a do -gooder from before that phrase was I think invented and

I cared about injustice and Oppression

and I Did not understand why why Christians would not leave consenting adults alone

and I had been living at that point in serially monogamous lesbian relationships and

Had co -authored the

unity gay marriage

in the process of I finished my tenure book and I was working on a book Really trying to

understand the religious, right?

I basically wanted to understand why you know people like you Hated or that's how I that's how

what I would have said about people like the person I used to be and so in the process of writing that book

Ken Smith and he immediately invited me to his home for dinner to meet his wife

Floyd and I thought that was great because I thought Ken would be my unpaid research assistant.

You know, I know what I don't know and I was interested to really Dig into

this.

I had a stick them on my desk that said I'd rather be Wrong on an important point than right on a

trivial one I still feel that way and I wanted to dig in and Ken was more than

happy to help me do that.

And so I probably had I don't know 500 meals at Ken's house.

You know, it was I was not an easy nut to crack.

But one of the things that he made clear to me is if I wanted to understand why Christians

needed to understand not only what the Bible said, but what the Bible is and so that began

a Wonderful journey in reading and rereading the Bible.

I read it seven times before I walked through the

and it's a very long story.

I mean, that's why I wrote a book about it.

But basically the the

not because I at that point stopped feeling like a lesbian because I was

absolutely Yeah,

and but you know what that was a messy process and it was a painful process your

hate

and.

During that you mean from professing Christians.

No, I mean at that point.

I definitely been then the recipient of that from professing Christians, but that's more recently.

No, that would have been really the gay rights movement because I betrayed them.

I mean I did I did I did betray them.

It's not that they weren't they weren't wrong and saying that but during that time, you know.

What broke through the loneliness is that and they became my

family don't know about them

and without that reality.

I'll praise God.

And then they wound up introducing you to Kent Butterfield.

Well, yes, you know, we're you know, Chris we're a very small very very

small Denomination visiting professor

at Geneva College and I was Teaching in an urban ministry program that borrowed a

little space from our denomination seminary the reform Presbyterian theological seminary in

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and It was there that I met

because he was a student there.

He walked me down the aisle when I when I married Kent Ken and Floyd.

Floyd went to be with

very much alive and well and continues to give me good advice and in his

counsel.

Amen.

Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address if they would like to join us in the conversation with a question of Their own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Ch r is a r n z n at gmail .com.

Uh, what do you mean by the merit of hospitality?

Well, I think that we tend to think of hospitality as Something that is set apart and different

from all the other things we do that.

We look at our calendar and we look at our our checkbook and we say hey.

You know that the house is going to be cleaned on the third Thursday November and you know,

I'm going to be able to go to the grocery store before then and so that's the day.

We're going to have hospitality and we're going to invite people over and and it'll be at 7 o 'clock and you know all of

that and I what I'm trying to say in this book is that there is a merit a meaning a Purpose and a grace

of living hospitably with the door open and having

opportunities for hospitality that are more open -ended and Regular and part of

the reason that I say that is.

And I talked about this in the gospel comes with a house key, but particular intense Hospitality that

Kent and I had been practicing happened because

working meth lab and

people in that house.

We were their only known friends in the neighborhood.

And so needless to say our neighbors wanted to know all kinds of things about.

You know had we lost our minds.

Yeah, I mean, you know we discovered at that moment that

a table with food Is a wonderful place for people to linger

over their differences with family devotions and so

so standing also that that the problem sometimes

with Hospitality that is a little bit too Micromanaged

we discovered that many of our neighbors were so

and your neighbors might not know if they're going to be sober or safe.

Every Thursday at six, you know, one of those

Thursday.

We wanted and we wanted to be accessible to

people and we wanted to break.

We wanted a better understandful

conversation with our neighbors because we don't we don't believe what you can't have

meaningful.

I'll share the same world view.

You can't talk across differences.

If you don't approve of people you can't really love them and

currently maybe even

spoke, you know.

We were downstream from a number of world -certed

intersectionality feminism gay rights and one of the ways Christians can just interrupt that is to

not obey the rules to open the doors wide and

Know one of the things that happens then is sometimes you'll see that when your relationships are strong.

Your words can be strong too and people are not offended.

What did you mean by?

Micromanaging hospitality.

That seems like an oxymoron kind of a thing.

Oh, does it?

Okay.

Well, it's just where you want it to not be ever awkward.

You know, you really want to make sure I don't let me just say there's nothing wrong with wanting to have an act.

You know to to be excellent at what you're doing.

There's nothing wrong with wanted wanting to have the house cleaned and wanted to have a nice

meal on the table.

But but sometimes people just need To talk with you before you have a chance to

get your your act together.

So so, you know to be willing to practice hospitality.

That's a little off your game, right?

You know, you know to share peanut butter and jelly sandwiches instead of the best meal.

You know how to make just because quite frankly it was a tough week and that's what you're having that night.

So that's all I need to be willing to let the the meaning of hospitality be the

Relationships that you're developing with the sole explicit intention that you want

people to understand why you have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

It's a call them to put their faith and trust in him as well.

If that's the primary goal then some of those other issues like whether the plates

match or whether You know, the kids have swept the house that day that

those become other yes.

And also visitors in your home very often will feel less comfortable if they feel

like they're in a museum or.

In.

Or in a five -star restaurant where I have to be on their best behavior with manners and

and all that.

Right, right, right.

No.

Absolutely, you know, we also one of the things that that we learned, you know.

We've learned a lot when there is a working meth lab across the street.

Let me just say this.

It's not like Ken tonight sat down and said well, you know, let's write a book and tell people how to do this.

We.

Really learned how deep and how Stressful people's

lives are without Christ in a new way.

I mean we remember that but by God's grace he softened the edges of our

and so it when you realize that there are people, you know dying of crushing

loneliness and not only people outside of Christ, but singles in your

church.

You know to not really think about the family as a family of God and and

anticipate those seasons of loneliness and move in with

quite frankly a house key or Just you know an open door.

To not live like that can really you know unwittingly of course.

Set your Christian brothers and sisters up to just feel like second -class citizens in

Christ's kingdom and there's no such thing.

There's no such thing as a second -class citizen.

We will judge the angels someday and so to

treat each other with dignity.

Means to know the and not not try to find some church

program to fill that.

Because there's no church program that can fill that.

What fills what meets loneliness.

Relationships are best developed during regular

seasons of meals and Bible and that's you know,

when you do when you do that when you just say well look interesting everybody eats dinner every day.

Why don't we just let the singles in our church know that great?

Well, we have to go to our we have to get our first break right now.

We'll have you pick up where you left off there.

Sorry to interrupt you.

And again, if anybody would like to join us, we already have some folks waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But if you'd like to get in line.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com as always.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence.

And your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Rosaria Butterfield.

And the gospel comes with a house key.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guests for the full two hours today.

With a little less than 90 minutes to go is Rosaria Butterfield and we are addressing her book the gospel

comes with a house key and.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own about hospitality.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please as always give you your first

name your city and state of residence and Your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, we have a question from Erin in Indianapolis, Indiana,

and she says good afternoon, Chris.

I have a strange question, which makes me sound like a horribly selfish person, but if you.

But if you think the question and answer might help listeners here it is.

What advice might mrs. Butterfield offer for a single Christian who would truly like to

practice hospitality in order to share the gospel, but who also has a spiritual gift

of mercy who has lots of experience.

Internalizing and taking to heart the struggles and sins of others far more.

Far more than is emotionally healthy.

In other words.

In other words, are there ways I can fully love my neighbor and show hospitality while also protecting myself.

From being overly involved in my emotional and spiritual detriment.

Well, first of all, let me tell Erin that she should be ashamed of herself.

Yeah, that is that is the best Question and it gets to the heart of

something that I haven't mentioned yet, and I'm so glad you asked it.

Hospitality is not a one -woman show.

It's not a one -family show.

Hospitality.

Christian hospitality is a reflection of the church in the world.

And here's what I mean.

It's when the church is gathering and you see that in the book of Acts in the book of Acts.

You see clearly that God's people knew where to gather and it wasn't some kind of a program.

And so Christian hospitality works best when it's not one family or one

person.

Having really thought this through saying maybe hey, this house would be a great house because

maybe it's got a wheelchair ramp or The parking is great here or it's right in the city or

whatever.

And then the elders of the church and others in the church thinking how can we how can we resource

this church?

I mean, I'm sorry, how can we resource this particular home?

So that Christian hospitality can happen and one of the things that you do is you're never alone with

that because anyone but especially someone who's sensitive and empathetic and

Willing to take criticism.

Those are all very good things.

But if you're all alone on the front line of hospitality.

Then you won't be able to stand up to some of the attacks of Satan.

It's a mission of the church that manifests itself in a particular home.

And you should never feel like you're on the front line and I know what that's like, too.

You know, you're on the front line of a ministry and you're looking back and there ain't nobody behind you.

It's you and nobody else.

That's not what this is supposed to be like.

It's a mission of the church and maybe your home is one of those and if your

home is one of those.

Then you need other people in the church.

Ministering alongside you as you open your home to hospitality and it's especially helpful.

I would say to have to have other families over

as well so that during the time of Bible teaching for example,

perhaps one of the Elders or one of the men who's really quite accustomed to leading family

devotions.

It can make a very natural I'll be in it.

Maybe awkward because remember awkward not bad, but nonetheless a natural segue into.

Now it's time.

Thank you.

That was a great conversation kids, can you bring the dishes to the sink now, it's time to open our

Bibles and And pray to the Lord because we've talked about a lot here.

So does that answer your question?

Does that answer Aaron's question?

Sounds like it to me if she has any follow -up.

She has any follow -up questions.

She can send in another email.

Well, Aaron, you made our guests very happy with that question.

And guess what?

I hope I'm gonna make you very happy because you just won.

The gospel comes with a house key by our guest Rosaria Butterfield.

Compliments of crossway books.

So, please make sure we have your full mailing address in Indianapolis, Indiana.

So that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS Calm who sponsor the show

can ship that out to you at no charge.

To you or to honor Trump and Zion radio.

And thanks.

Thanks again for the great question.

Let's see here.

We have a question from Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania.

And he asked what would you consider to be a full list of?

The minimum things required for Christian hospitality to be

fulfilled.

Yes, okay.

The first is just to repeat on Aaron's question the first

the mission of the church behind you so in other words the church knows that on

Thursday nights the Butterfields open their home to their neighbors and if

especially if we are.

We know maybe there's something really up and we might need to really deal with the problem or an issue.

We want some other folks from the church over that night, too.

So the first is to have other believers and to make that a

regular part of hospitality.

And then the other I would say is to hospitality simply

Shares what you have.

I would say that there are no minimum expectations except for

You know to think through.

What would be the some basic comfort issues for your guests?

So one of the things that we've definitely noticed in our neighborhood is that people are not likely To walk through

the door of our house.

We do instead is every fall.

We have something called fire pit Fridays.

We take usually the month of September every Friday night.

We have a cookout followed by a Sing we'll sing some songs around fire pit.

Yeah kids will do s'mores.

And we have we have gotten to know a wide Range of

one of our neighbors is moving in across the street pit

Fridays.

We sent our teenagers over with a cooler and some water and cokes and things and we invited

them to come over and they came Over.

They said well, we'd love to come over.

But we can't we're a Muslim family and we we can't eat your meat and we said great bring your own meat.

And they did.

You know and they did and And we've gotten to be to be very good friends over

over the course of time.

And so so we would say just make sure that there are other believers that are with you share what you have.

But you know think about the fact that you don't want people to be too impressed With with you really

you really don't.

You want people to be not very impressed at all.

But you want them to be able to you want to be able to communicate that.

That it is only through the grace of God and through the love of the Lord Jesus Christ that you can

Do the things that you do and and fulfill his expectations for you, so

I would say you know minimize this list and Maximize the

things that prepare for hospitality which is having your community with you.

But also bathing it in prayer.

One of the things that often comes up at this point is What happens if a husband and a wife are in

disagreement over?

Hospitality and that's a really easy thing you go with what the husband says and if you don't like it Then you

you pray you pray and you ask him to reconsider.

Some of you ask him to reconsider, but but hospitality should not be a dividing a divisive issue

within family.

Nor should it be Nor should it be a very stressful and it's certainly

an opportunity of scoring and as I've said many times There will be some awkward moments.

And they're awkward moments because people are not used to having honest conversations with each other.

They're used to mouthing off the way people do on Twitter.

They're not used to actually saying ha I've never met somebody who thinks this way let me

think about it, so there will be some awkward moments.

But it's not supposed to you know suck you dry or Leave you

without any kind of resources in fact.

It's a very fulfilling thing.

Types of the people that he is entrusted to you

those neighbors that you have are precious.

God never gets the address pointed you into

their lives are

showered

or not all of that is just

to manage conflict.

Without it becoming an issue of betrayal.

Now when you yes, and when you mentioned before.

That you.

Always inform your church ahead of time that they're fully aware.

It's what's of what's going on.

They often have other Members of the church over there.

Is this a hard and fast rule or just a general?

Practice because.

Someone someone might say well what happens to spontaneity in your life when you?

Meet.

When you meet somebody in the grocery store you can't just say hey come on over we're firing up the barbecue.

You know right.

Yeah, and you can you absolutely can there's nothing.

I think that those.

I think I think it's a both -and I Think it's a both -and, but I think if you've already

planned like you've already planned to have a particular event you know a series of

events that are open to your whole neighborhood and You you know that you're going to want to share the gospel.

Not just you know.

Share the you know the things that you already have in common as neighbors then.

Since you already have planned that it makes sense to also invite your church family over and

you know what?

I bet but absolutely spontaneity is fantastic.

I absolutely love that and you can certainly do that.

That's not off the table at all.

And I would think it might be awkward.

Almost make you sound like you're in a cult if you were to say to somebody I'd love to have you over, but I gotta ask my church

permission first.

No, you would never you would never say that and it's not meant to be Programmatic.

I would just say and again many of these things that I'm talking about now came out of a moment

when our Neighbors were angry with us.

There's a working meth lab across the street.

We're the only people that knew these people well.

We certainly didn't know there's a meth lab across the street.

So obviously we didn't know them that well but we knew them well enough to take care of their dog and know how to get their aging

mother those kinds of things on the phone and so and.

When you know, you're gonna have an angry mama mob over to your house.

And you don't want it to just be a shouting match.

It helps to have other Christians there because they're good.

They're you know, there's just too many concerned people.

For you know, Kenton Rosario Advantage right part of it.

It was just you know, play, you know do the math, right?

And.

Erin has a follow -up for email here.

Oh.

And she said it's not a question.

She's just saying Oh Mrs. Butterfield, thank you so much for your always gracious

Complete and comforting response Chris.

She says Chris not so much.

Thank you so much for the book Chris Crossway and CVB BS.

I'm so thrilled.

And we have to go to our midway break right now folks.

The midway break is longer than our normal breaks because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in

Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to

buy SEC regulations Localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida and

therefore while we air our globally heard commercials They are airing their local public service

announcements.

So, please be patient with us during this longer break.

Make wise use of the time by Writing down as much information provided by our advertisers as

possible so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

So that.

Subsequently our Advertisers will be happy and they'll want to stick around as our advertisers and

keep us on the air because keep in mind That we depend upon our advertisers to exist.

We would never survive.

Solely on the basis of donations that come in we require these advertising sponsors.

So, please try to patronize them even if it means just sending a letter or an email.

Or a phone call to them To let them know that you appreciate their

sponsorship of this program and also obviously use this time to write down some good questions

for Rosaria Butterfield and our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be back after these messages with more of Rosaria Butterfield.

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An iron sharpens iron radio before I return to our guest Rosaria Butterfield and our discussion on the

gospel comes with a house key.

I just want to make a couple of a very important announcements.

First of all tomorrow We are planning a tribute to the late

Ravi Zacharias.

Many of you may have heard That just about two days ago.

I believe it was Ravi went home to be with the Lord that he loved so much

due to cancer and We are going to have Dan, but if you go start the

program tomorrow.

Dan was a personal friend of Ravi Zacharias.

Dan, but if you go whose ads you've been hearing on this program for his law firm, but if you go and associates and also the historical

Bible Society he not only was a Personal friend of Ravi's but

Ravi wrote the forward to a book that Dan, but if you go wrote.

So we're starting off the program with Dan and we may have some others join us.

But the last hour will be an encore presentation of an interview.

I conducted with Ravi Some years ago that I hope will bless you.

So we are we are postponing our next Coronavirus update that we

typically have on Friday with pastor Joe Jackowitz of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California in

order to have this tribute to Ravi Zacharias.

Also folks this is the part of the show that I hate doing but I've got to do it if you love

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Last but not least if you are not a member of a local Bible believing church.

You're having a hard time finding one where you live.

I have lists of Biblically faithful churches all over the world and I have already helped many people

in our audience find churches near where they live either that they have Visited and

joined themselves or that they have referred to Friends and family and loved ones who are without a church home

or sometimes they visit these churches on vacation but I hope that you will reach out to me as well if you

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And that's also the email address where you could send in a question to Rosaria Butterfield.

That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

We are talking about her book.

The gospel comes with a house key and practicing radically ordinary Hospitality

in our post -christian world, that's quite an interesting phrase there that you've coined radically

ordinary.

I love it.

We do have as I said some listeners waiting for you Answer questions.

We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina house for how far is Asheboro from Durham, you know?

Yeah, it's about four hours.

Asheboro is beautiful it's in the mountains and it's one of my favorite places to visit.

Well Grady, maybe it's worth a four -hour drive to spend some Fellowship with the with the

Butterfields since they seem to have an open house there at least a couple of times a week.

Grady's a very faithful listener and a very faithful Financial supporter of this show and he says hi brother Chris

and sister Rosaria.

How do you handle someone?

If they are coming over and it seems all they're interested in is the meal.

Grady I told you not to bring that up in public.

I've apologized many times.

Do you keep inviting them praying that the Holy Spirit will work in their heart?

Okay, that's hilarious and I will tell you that there's one Category of

people and I know it's always dangerous for Christians say this, right?

But I'm gonna do it.

Anyway, I'm gonna take the risk and going out on a limb.

There's one category of people for whom that is consistently true and we it's just

okay.

And that would be college students who are really middle -class homeless.

There you have it.

And of course what if you want to break a cycle.

You know, just just persevere brother persevere.

Yeah, there's a local Christian college campus ministry.

Excuse me as I pour myself some coffee.

There's a there's a local college campus ministry that actually.

Has.

Free they advertise it to the other students free grilled cheese sandwiches

that they give away and The gospel comes along with it.

So right.

And of course people who have Soup kitchens and all kinds of things like that as a regular

ministry.

They're very used to people coming just for the food.

It's not and and I would just seriously say that you just

don't really loneliness and and issues that might not come up

in General, which

is kind of lurking around.

It is put them to gospel use and what I mean by that is, you know I would say the

gospel comes with a housekeeper.

It also comes with the chore chart.

So if somebody's kind of a regular here that person is, you know

knows how to use the vacuum cleaner and knows how to peel potatoes and.

Enlist that person in ministry, and I think you'll be blessed.

And so that person amen and we have to be careful about not thinking that we're clairvoyant.

You might think that that's the yeah, absolutely.

All right, thank you Grady and we have your address already and we are going to have CVB BS

comm Ship you a free copy of the gospel comes with a house key.

Thanks a lot for your question.

We have Patti in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Now you already addressed this so maybe Patti tuned in late.

But she says maybe you'll have something to add to your previous comments on this.

She says does hospitality.

Does hospitality.

Involve a sit -down dinner with the good China.

Not if you're coming to my house.

Maybe if I'm going to yours, I don't know where the good China is.

Well, I'll tell you a funny story about that too because last Christmas I think we have about 40

people over here and I usually use the corral, you know.

But then after you run out of corral you go to paper plates and then after you go to paper plates and then some kids.

They just do this.

They just grab, you know a good dish from the top because they're all taller than I am so they grabbed a good dish from the top of the

cabinet and The day after Christmas, I found a stack of dishes

on the trampoline.

That's right on the trampoline and and you know, that's

Okay, and then when I complain about it when I go and I'm like a crazy person and I go to my kids and their Friends

and I scream, you know, right?

I cuz I'm Italian so I'm screaming about dishes I'm a trampoline and my son, you know, we'll just look up very

interesting and said but mom we stacked them up.

Really nearly all over the trampoline like Roberta Heathens we stacked them up.

So that gives you a little snapshot as to what.

What kind of a motley crew I'm talking about here and it just

doesn't quite fit in with that that you're going to do it your way and

that's wonderful and if your way involves that and it just involves a just a

delicate and aesthetic appreciation of how Good

China and fresh flowers go together.

That is wonderful.

And so I think that's just a style question, but it's not man.

Let's see here.

We have Oh Patty.

You're also getting a free copy of.

The book.

The gospel comes with a house key.

Thanks for your question we have a listener who has

Actually given me permission To identify himself in

full.

He has actually been a guest on This program several times.

His name is Mitch Tepper.

He's a Jewish believer and he is a missionary to the Jews both domestically and

globally Representing Christian witness to Israel, which is a reformed

a reformed outreach to the Jews.

One of the oldest such ministries Robert Murray McShane was involved in

it Charles Spurgeon and It still exists today.

Wasn't always called Christian witness to Israel, but it's been called that for quite a long time he

says and this is kind of Breaking stride from the hospitality

Theme if you don't mind, but he says that's fine.

He says I have not spoken to my Transgender son in three years.

I was wondering if Rosario had any ideas of reaching out and connecting with him again.

It's been very difficult and heartbreaking for me.

Yes.

What an important Question and and I don't think this is off topic at all.

And what I would say first and foremost is that you know, these this is

probably the most difficult Situation for a

ministry and to have seen God bless your ministry your

children.

For this season and this is not you know, we're not making any eternal statements for this season Not

respond to the gospel and so that is a very very painful thing.

What I would say is First of all, I'm going to recommend a book and it's not my book.

It's Christopher you on and Angela you on spook.

Well, it's not about transgenderism per se.

It's about it is about homosexuality.

And at least half of the book is Angela's story.

That would be the mom.

She prayed for Her son Christopher while he was

Rejecting the gospel and living a very dangerous life

probably my dearest, you know friend I'll praise

God and yeah, but it's an

amazing book it's probably my very favorite memoir of all memoirs and what it does

it is to the shares and Angela's prayer life

and her vulnerability and what that journey was like for her and how the Lord Showed his

love to her in that lonely time.

And so first I would just recommend that book and and and and then secondly, I

Would also want to be reading books that are helpful to understand

Transgenderism.

You know from a I would say, you know, there are a couple of

very good books.

One of my favorites is by Jay Allen branch called affirming God's image

Addressing the transgender question with

finally, I would recommend looking at The sex change

regret Websites and that is run by a man who's also a personal friend of mine named

Walt higher Heyer.

Well, we

believe at least a decade maybe more Having gone to the entire battery of the sex

change operation and that and then what did what's what's called?

I think just to really wrap your mind around it.

Finally, you know, I always suggest That you you know, you're it's a very hard thing.

Probably you probably feel like an accidental missionary someone who who was just or dropped.

And so I would just say

that that is

is all

those things I'll need to

do to be the dad of this and you need to continue to be the dad

of this son.

Even as this son rejects you and rejects You know himself in many

ways and so, you know, I always encourage connecting

On safe terms if that's possible.

And if it's not possible then getting every single human being on the planet that you know to pray for your

son.

Specifically praying that the Lord would raise up Christian friends who can

maybe make an inroad Where you can't and then finally another important prayers that you would pray

I will tell you

that I will pray and your son

is not any further than you were or that any of us

He is appointed over that what seems like if you

know, it

sounds like this might be a

longer conversation.

So maybe Chris we can find some way to oh

sure.

In fact, I forgot to mention that Mitch.

Has a connection with you and your husband.

He's a graduate of the Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Great.

Well, thank you Mitch.

Oh, I'll read a follow -up question.

That's actually more on your book that he has.

Many Christians have been very divisive and have caused many divisions in the church during the

pandemic.

Being hospitable with these former close friends.

Isn't been hasn't been easy.

Help.

You know, it's so funny I'm so glad you did ask that question because Butterfields have been so busy with

hospitality during the pandemic that we're starting to call it.

You know, we're starting to say that gospel comes with the house key of hospitality with training wheels.

And I think you know, it's just it's been a fascinating thing now.

But but the reality is that there are people who don't want to receive.

I mean, you know There's a fear factor and you want to respect people's boundaries and you must.

But one of the things that we have been doing as a family Is we've all.

We've all.

We've all gotten jobs as.

A.

Grocery delivery people and I'm going to tell you you will people will share with

you their deepest most heartfelt fears.

As they're putting their or and so

that has been expect people's boundaries.

Pray for them and stay off of social media.

I mean, I will just tell you that people allow.

People will engage with people in social media that if they showed up at your front door you

would call 9 -1 -1.

You know just don't you know social media is not the place to work out.

Anything of significance.

In fact quite frankly, I don't think they they might not even know they're doing it.

But people who work out theology of social media are actually Working towards a

because they are stealing the job that is the job of elders and pastors.

Hmm, you think church discipline needs to happen?

Contact the church pastor and to engage in this

ridiculous shamefest

proximity between that and the violation of both the Fifth and Ninth Commandment is Almost.

And you know who you are folks.

I.

Know I I don't do it anymore.

I used to cave in and allow the vacuum

cleaner of time to suck hours out of my life by getting embroiled in

Theological disputes on Facebook.

Right.

And I and I won't do it anymore.

I just know I just abruptly tell people This isn't the time or the place.

I'm not gonna waste my time, right?

Exactly and that's exactly what it is.

So.

Well, thank you, Mitch.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

No, no.

I just encourage all of us to not have any important conversation and thank you so

much Mitch.

He loves your answers and Mitch.

Give me your mailing address in Pittsburgh because you've also won the gospel comes with a house key and

We're going to take our final break.

It's going to be a much more brief break than the last one.

So, please if you want to have a question asked before we run out of time Send it to me now at Chris Arnzen at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And this is the last segment of our interview with Rosaria Butterfield on the gospel comes with a house key.

If you have a question, I would send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Rosaria.

We have an anonymous listener.

The anonymous listener says.

Do you think that it is a Wise idea to invite a homosexual

couple into your home, especially if you have young children present.

Right.

That's a very very good.

That's my answer might not be Satisfying

because it simply is it depends there's

our sister

Thanksgiving the answer might need to be yes

in general if you are trying to witness

Homosexual

couple will help each other keep their guard up.

So it is always my preference to Invite people

into so that's that's my preference.

Now as far as children that it, you know again, it depends upon what age.

What kind of and you know children?

Are picking up on a lot of things right now.

I don't know if it's really struck anybody yet, but this is the first June in

almost 50 years and some you know in some communities that there will be no gay pride March.

Wow now, yeah, I know seriously it is a virtual Event this year and that means

that this is the first year and sometimes 50 years that there will be no opportunity to normalize

homosexuality.

Praise God.

I know praise God.

Yes, and the other thing that that will happen Certain identities and homosexual identity is one of those

it requires.

The affirmation of the deny it that is to really you know, deny

the oxygen to the fire.

So this is a really big deal if there is a way that you can.

Well, first of all if there is a way your primary responsibility is to your family

and to to protecting your family.

Sheltering them might not be protecting that it kind of depends but certainly what you don't want to do

is help normalize Homosexuality.

Amen.

So so it just it really just depends.

I mean, I will tell you that our children were really in many ways

just sometimes that we tuck them in and they We discover that they had crawled out of bed and they were falling asleep under the

under the dining room table with their teddy bears.

And their pillows and we realize you know that for years.

They've been falling asleep listening to their parents plead with their neighbors to put

really does that you're

kidding some kind of Christian.

Better

if your family first.

Amen.

Yes, I can recall back in the 1980s when I was

Dating my first Christian girlfriend and She was

from Virginia.

I was on Long Island, New York, and we were having a long -distance relationship where every Three months one of us

would go to the other is hometown and spend like a week there and

I remember I was invited to her Long Island uncle's

Thanksgiving dinner and her cousin Is

a homosexual and he brought his partner with him.

But the thing that I was very thankful about is that they never acted like a couple in

public there at the Thanksgiving meal.

In fact, they In fact, they just looked very uncomfortable and frightened to be perfectly

honest.

But they didn't.

There was no affection demonstrated toward each other and so on.

That might not be the case in 2020 just because of the organization of

homosexuality.

But I also think it's really helpful and this is a very you know.

This is one of those things that when tweeted it it really gets me in trouble.

But there's really no such thing as a gay person.

Gay sex is gay.

Can tell me how a person feels but it does not ever tell me who a person, right?

Because because.

You know the image of God and and your sexual difference is certainly Ontological.

Being born male or female is an ontological issue but sexual orientation is really a 19th century

category mistake that we've inherited from Freud and I Think Christians of all people

should just be done with it.

Mm -hmm I really do and I'm not saying I don't.

I'm not saying we shouldn't live in reality.

The people identify as gay.

But that is a category mistake because gay is not who anyone is.

It may be very well how you know people feel but it's not a who and I think it people get

really you know, this is where the gay Christian movement comes in and

any number of categories that are not and

the church is Confused often about how to respond and when I say gay Christian

movement Matthew vines, right?

Metropolitan.

But I'm also talking about the celibate gay Christian movement because that equally problematic.

Yes, and it's even more problematic.

I think because they come from conservative logical.

Denominations, I agree with you entirely to be careful of all people.

Yes.

In fact, I I typically try.

To not refer to people as homosexuals, but say Something like the person involved in

homosexual activity.

Yeah, right, right, right, but I just I slipped there when I was.

By the way anonymous Thank you for the question.

And if you want to send me your full name and address I will not obviously reveal it over the

air.

You have also won a free copy of the gospel comes with a house key.

So send it to me as soon as possible.

I'd like you to spend some time before we run out of time.

He's summarizing what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners when it comes to the book.

The gospel comes with a house key.

Yeah, well, I think the thing I would most want to say is that

Christians do not need to fear anything, you know

COVID -19 or What appears to be a gay rights movement

that is Winning, you know on some level we really don't need to and

what is extremely effective about having a pattern and a

practice of hospitality is Your home does become a place where?

Where hard things can be discussed and where strong relationships can carry those

hard Things.

Christians need to help people understand Reality.

A few years ago.

I had a friend an old friend call me up and say we just can't be friends anymore.

Rosaria I'm a lesbian now, and you don't approve of me and I

had to say Ruth I'm so sorry that you ever thought I approved of you.

I never approved.

You.

Never approved of me, you know, so we you know, we disagreed

on any number of significant differences spanking potty training Pixar films chicken nuggets, you

know, those those things and.

So why?

Why are you telling me all of a sudden that I need to approve of you to be your friend?

I mean if love and approval go together Then no parent ever loved a child.

And you know, she laughed exactly the same way you laughed.

I never approved of you.

I thought that you know spankings barbaric, you know, blah blah blah blah blah.

She said.

And you know, I don't know why I I don't know why I had this.

I don't know why I said this.

You're right.

It doesn't make sense.

Acceptance and approval are different and.

You.

Don't need to approve of me to love me and you've shown that so I think sometimes it just helps you to realize that

Hospitality provides the you know more private moments.

Really.

Just to have a word in season.

And that word in season is both a gospel proclamation.

Put your faith and trust in Jesus.

Repent of your sin.

Identify your sin.

Understand how to deal with indwelling sin.

I mean this is who knows that but a Christian.

Who knows that for indwelling sin?

That's the sin that's in the house.

Not the one that's out there that you need to starve it first.

I mean who knows these things.

That you need to mortify it.

That you need to separate yourself From it.

That you need to learn how to hate your sin without hating yourself.

These are all key things, but if Christians devote too much time on social media, what's going to happen

is.

You are going to lose the ability to understand the difference between the pride,

you know.

Social media collapses that difference and hospitality restores it.

Hospitality reminds us that that private convert

where people can without shame.

Amen, and that's what we want to see.

Amen.

You just reminded me of a conversation I had with Todd Friel not long ago.

Where I said Todd you haven't agreed to Come on my show in quite a while.

Is it that you don't like me anymore?

And he said Chris I never like.

Assured me he was kidding after that and I'll try it hard to believe the second.

Comment.

But I want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information.

We have Rosaria Butterfield calm.

Rosaria Butterfield calm and also don't forget about first Reformed Presbyterian Church of

Durham, North Carolina First RPC Durham, that's DUR h a m

org First RPC Durham org Rosaria.

It's been such a joy.

I can't wait to have you back on the program again.

In fact, if you could hold on after we go off the air, I wanted to see if I could schedule another interview with you

and I want to thank everybody who listened and Especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are.

A sinner.