August 26, 2016 Show with Gary W. Long & Terry Wolever on “Susannah Spurgeon: The Princess of the Prince of Preachers” PLUS a Discussion of Susannah Spurgeon’s Book, ‘A Cluster of Camphire’

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of August 2016.

I'm delighted to have two guests on the same time at the same time today.

Who have never been on the broadcast before and I'm eagerly looking forward to interviewing them and promoting

their very valuable ministry.

First of all, we have on the program with us today a Pastor Gary long.

He is pastor of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Springfield, Missouri Since 1997 and

he serves as president of particular Baptist Press.

He was on the board of friends of the Spurgeon Library when it was at William Jewell College

served as host of the Spurgeon pastors conferences held annually at William Jewell in the

1990s and was chairman for Baptist history celebration held at First Baptist Church Church of

Charleston, South Carolina in 2007.

And we also have joining us Terry Woliver Who is a graduate of Oklahoma

State University in Stillwater, Oklahoma.

He is the author of the life of John Gano who lived from 1727 to

1804 and he was at one time a pastor of the First Baptist

Church in Manhattan and Happened to read a phenomenal biography

written by my friend John Thornberry.

About one of his successors Spencer Cohn, which I highly recommend, but we'll discuss that later.

Terry Woliver's special regional interest is in the early regular Baptists of the northeastern United States.

And he serves as full -time editor for particular Baptist Press and teaches at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church

in Springfield, Missouri, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome both of you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron.

Thank you very much and Let me right away give our email address out.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and Please give us your first name

your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Well, first of all, I'd like to hear something about the church you pastor of Pastor Gary.

Sovereign Grace Baptist Church started in 1970 and We've been existing

since then.

We meet on the southwest corner of Springfield, Missouri.

It's a small congregation, but very great and.

Obviously you believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace hence the name and that those

are commonly called the theological distinctions of Calvinism

or reformed theology or just sovereign grace or sometimes even free grace and

something that happens to be near and dear to my heart as well.

And.

How did how and when did particular Baptist Press get started?

Terry.

Wolver was with us in our church back in 1995 and he was going to

publish a pamphlet by a just by the name of Joseph

and we talked about it and both Terry and I are lovers of Baptist history and.

One thing led to another we asked if there's possibility that we could reprint his

body done on Kinghorn.

It'd been long out of print and so we did we started money

From a number of individual situation.

We told him there'd be no interest Paid on their money and that

but the Lord blessed

that was in 1995 the life and works of Joe.

Well, how many books do you have in print now?

We have about well, there's over 45 50.

We're probably at 48 right now.

Mm -hmm, and I know that you do.

Really high quality binding and everything.

These are not cheap books by any stretch of the imagination.

Very attractive very.

X excellent binding and so on.

We weren't gonna we have done.

Try to do the good

quality bindings and.

Yeah, well, obviously you want these books to last as long as possible and the kind of binding that you provide.

They could last centuries, right?

Right.

And so what different what are the different kinds of books that you have in print?

We have a different the

British theory.

And how are

these books funded?

Then wanted to

participate

in this ministry.

We're really up and they we

just have many of them

or not almost all of our missionary series.

And before we even go into the book by Susanna Spurgeon that is the

main topic of our program today, I Want to know more about a book

you have published called Baptist history celebration 2007.

Mm -hmm.

That book was a result of a meeting.

The meeting itself was an

experience because we we met in 2001

committee made up of every kind of Baptist.

That we could get

to in common.

We have nothing in common theological even in our methodology.

But we do have.

We met a number of years and

differently the meeting came

all that meeting

plenary sessions and we had breakout sessions and Sessions on humanity and biographical

sketches and more than

what we could

handle and it's

never been done before.

Now you have a missionary series that consists of six different volumes.

But five of the six are about Isaac McCoy.

Why is that?

Well

annual register.

And they

wanted

their

only hand.

He

didn't

have

this.

Wow

praise

God.

What is the best seller that you have over a particular Baptist Press?

Probably the three

printing for it.

Well, that's the.

Title that we are discussing today a cluster of camper.

Camper is a flower.

Is it not?

Well, a lot of our listeners who happen to be theologically

reformed Calvinistic Believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

They cherish The Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

Many of our listeners probably have read much of what Spurgeon

has written and For those of our listeners who don't know anything about Charles Haddon Spurgeon

he was a 19th century preacher in London, England and Was the

pastor amongst other places for the place.

He's most well known for pastoring was Metropolitan Tabernacle, which actually still exists today.

He was a prolific writer and one of the most powerful preachers of his

day and was a thoroughly theologically Calvinistic Baptist

pastor no matter what some enemies of Calvinism Try to

rewrite about him.

He was a thoroughgoing Historic and Calvinist five -point

Calvinist thoroughgoing Sovereign Grace man.

But what is who is?

Even less is known even by perhaps those who are very familiar with

Charles Haddon Spurgeon's writing.

Not many of us know a lot about Susanna his wife, why don't you tell us something about Susanna Spurgeon's background?

Okay, she was born in January

Time when she and C. H.

Spurgeon were married.

They spent their honeymoon in Paris and they were married on January 8th 1856

at the New Park Street Chapel.

He was 21.

She was just a week shy of being 24.

So she was actually two and a half years older.

And she lived longer than he did.

She outlived him until October 22nd 1903.

She died at the age of 71 and of course most virgin fans know that he died at the age

of 57.

Yeah that.

For that.

Time or during that time was that?

Was that at a young age even then for someone to pass away?

Yes.

Well, how did they first meet.

Well Monday morning that he first

preached there, which was in October of 1853.

She was not there at the morning service.

And as a matter of fact.

There was very few people there at that

morning that they put out a call to the rest of the members and the rest of the

persons who had been attending To come that evening at the

evening service.

And when he came out she thought well Who is this youth

coming into the Paul John Gill?

And anyway, she disliked his haircut and His cold

chest or a key

preach and

so and that is where she was actually formally introduced to

him and him to her Although neither one of them later were able to recall at what precise

time they were introduced.

Yeah, and you said that she did not like his accent.

Was that an accent that was more Associated with lower -class

individuals or something.

People of a of a less education or financial status.

Well, it was more associated with the country and remember that Susanna Spurgeon lived in the city

with the upper -class community there in London in her area that she lived

and he was from Colchester and.

So they had a unique accent there so she could tell he was from the country by the way, he dressed

and.

What we do have.

Some questions already for you.

We have Liz in Holtzville, Long Island who wants to know.

This is actually a question about Charles Haddon Spurgeon and.

Liz.

Asks, do you know whether or not Charles Haddon Spurgeon had ever met or had any

kind of communication? with the great

Author of tale of two cities and other works a Charles Dickens.

Yes, we have

seen.

Well guess what.

Liz if you give us your.

Full name and address.

You're gonna get a free copy of this book that we are offering today that we are highlighting in our

Discussion today a Cluster of camphor and am I pronouncing that right?

Yeah, because if you if our listeners were to actually look at this word in writing it would look like

an old English version of campfire C -a -m -p -h -i

-r -e but it's obviously as as our guest has already demonstrated.

It's not pronounced that way and We look forward to sending that out to you Liz and

that will be not only Given to you as a gift from particular Baptist Press who we thank

for providing these books It's also going to be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible

Book Service.

Cv bbs .com cv bbs .com and

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Is a longtime sponsor of

iron sharpens iron and we thank them for supporting us since our

relaunch here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and Thanks again to Todd and Patty Jennings

for for always supporting iron sharpens iron.

We we also have another listener we have latane in

Albuquerque, New Mexico.

And.

Latane wants to know Was Susanna

a great help to her husband Charles during his seasons of depression

that I have heard about and What how did she actually cope

with that.

These people started crying.

Fire incident

Trampled to death and a lot of people being injured this

greatly him and he

was when he got home.

He entered into a very very dark and

anyway, it was Susanna come back.

How

she did that or what counsel she gave him and I don't recall.

Reading any specifics about that there may be but I don't recall.

Latane also follows up with another question.

She says I'd also like to know if Susanna helped with any of the research

for the Treasury of David Which is my absolute favorite book of Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

I'd also like to know what was her favorite of his sermons and or books.

I'm sure she did.

We do know that she helped him.

We do know that actually it was his.

That he handed her a Promotion copy of that and she said

after she read it.

She said I wish every pastor in England could have a copy of this and He challenged her

from that remark and I'm just

why don't you do it?

And how much are you going to give.

Took that challenge and she established the book all four ministers to acquire

theological books that they couldn't afford and So we know that she was

Intimately involved in his work and his publishing and and she and him would

sit in his office.

And she's like that for his books when he was writing them and also for

his sermon.

Well praise God Latane if you give us your full mailing address.

You have also won a free copy of a cluster of camphor by Susanna Spurgeon.

Thank you so much for writing in and That's compliments of particular Baptist Press

and also being shipped out to you at no charge to either you or to iron sharpens

iron by our friends at CV BBS comm Cumberland Valley Bible book service.

Now We just mentioned a bit about the background of Charles Haddon Spurgeon's

depression and Very great trial in his life.

What were some of the trials in Susanna's life?

At one point we know that she underwent surgery.

But to this day, we don't know the cause of her affliction.

We don't know exactly what it was that she suffered from.

But we do know that she was practically an invalid for about 16 years

and while her husband was Recuperating in his own with his own health problems in

Menton, France.

She was not able to go over there, but I think maybe once or twice.

While he was over there, she couldn't even leave her own home and so I Know

on one occasion they even had to move because in London.

Mm -hmm.

Oh badly impacting her that they had to move to higher ground

and.

Did she ever become as well known a public figure in her own right.

As her husband Charles Evans Burton.

Well, she did after his death mainly through the book fund and also she

not only published this the cluster of camphor on her

work with the book fund and

J .W. Harreld.

That compiled the autobiography of C .H. Spurgeon.

They put all that together.

Those four volumes is recently done in a four -volume set and it's been recently reprinted in two volume.

Was aided by J .W. Harreld in that publication and then this cluster of camphor was

actually a part of the book Series of three volumes.

This is the middle book in that series and there were two others

has reprinted the first one.

That series which is called the Carolina Bells and they retitled it free grace and dying love which

was the subtitle of the original.

But I think it was done.

Since you said this is one of your best sellers of particular Baptist Press a cluster of camphor.

Have you received any testimonies from others who have been blessed by this book?

Yes, we have especially one case in particular where

valued them when they went through the death of their son and they wrote us a letter and.

Those kind of things are real shots in the arms.

Because we want the use of the Lord to minister to people's hearts and souls.

And so that letter in particular stood out to us.

That it was a great benefit

From people as to the importance of this that this book has been to them in

Primarily in comfort and that's what its design was.

And we're going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air as well with the question of your own for our guests today.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our topic of discussion today is the princess

of the Prince of Preachers that Susanna Spurgeon the wife of Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

And our guests discussing this today are Gary Long and Terry Wolliver and

both are involved with the Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Springfield, Missouri

and They are both also involved in particular Baptist Press.

Who has brought back into print a cluster of camphor? a book written by

Susanna Spurgeon.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

Who asks are you familiar with Susanna Spurgeon writing the last couple of chapters of her

husband's? commentary on the Gospel of Matthew.

Because Charles Haddon Spurgeon had passed to glory.

Which by the way, we

public and

though we've

had to make ours is a

little different.

We've added About 40 nice

photographs.

We've also worked to

publish some letter that it

didn't publish.

A former pack.

He had made some pepper on to him.

If you could just give a summary of the downgrade controversy.

I know that There is an excellent book that Ian Murray had written On this

issue among other things that Charles Haddon Spurgeon confronted in his life The Forgotten

Spurgeon which is published by banner of truth.

But if you could tell us something and at least in summary fashion about the downgrade controversy.

Well, I can start the

downgrade.

The thing that

put he did have to

pray the downgrade controversy

was what

is a mini

mix.

That he said they say that

I fight for count the

issue.

He had no an evangelical Methodist.

But at any

rate it proved out that he was

fighting in early so

it was like the fundamentalist modernist controversy.

You mean in here in America?

Let me say one thing Chris

about when we and I

mentioned that

he suffered and he

did suffer from.

Yeah,

and.

Let me shamelessly plug Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service again, because they have probably every

single theologically reformed Calvinistic or Sovereign Grace Teaching book

that you can get a hold of go to CV BBS calm and you could find

out more About what they offer CV BBS calm.

That's CV for Cumberland Valley BBS or Bible Book Service calm and

Is there a special passage from a cluster of camphor that has meant something special to each of

you?

And by the way, Terry if you could speak up a little bit because I have to over modulate everything in order to really

pick Up your voice.

By the way, I forgot to mention to you Tyler.

I think perhaps I did mention it but Tyler you're getting a free copy of a cluster of camp for

compliments of a particular Baptist Press and also being shipped to you free of charge by

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

I can't remember if I mentioned that to you not Tyler, but thanks again for writing in Deep by

the way, Gary.

Did you have a special part of the book?

That was a specific blessing to you more than anything else?

Not

any special part

design.

I was

going

through

not only

get her work.

Yeah,

we have

a.

Listener in Riverhead Long Island, New York.

Fern and Fern.

Wants to know how specifically this book is a comfort to those who have lost

loved ones.

Fern and her husband Jerry lost a precious child at the

age of 13 about 35 years ago or so and.

He.

Was riding his bicycle to school and was hit by a truck and.

In his memory and his honor they started a home for

homeless abused and abandoned children Hold the Timothy Hill Children's Ranch in Riverhead, Long

Island and.

She wants to know specifically how this book is a comfort for those Who have lost loved ones

because obviously she and her husband have been through that Valley.

Cherry

you

want

to try

to

be

many

deaths

the victory

that we

have

in

Christ.

Amen.

Well Fern guess what.

You're getting a free copy of The book by Susanna Spurgeon a cluster of camp for so if you

could please give us your full mailing address as well.

We'll be happy to ship that out to you.

What can you tell us about?

Charles and Susanna's two sons Thomas and Charles.

And I'm gonna

repeat our email address if

anybody would

like to join us

on the air

with

a question of your own.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

What have you both learned by being?

Involved in this book.

And Terry Wolver.

You're the editor of the book and obviously Gary you had a lot to do with this being brought back into print.

Tell us your Your own blessings that you've received and what you've learned.

Well, I can

tell you as and

he had bought by it himself

in print.

So

someone

was

blessed that

he made it

possible.

We have.

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know did Susanna.

Share Charles's.

Convictions about the doctrines of sovereign grace before they were married.

And

Susan you've also won a copy of the book a cluster of camp for thanks to our Guests

today their publishing ministry and you'll be getting that shipped to you by Cumberland Valley Bible book

service.

A.

Lot of people who are.

Most of their their bookshelves are filled with modern

Books by contemporary authors.

Now, I don't want to broad brush because there are many wonderful gifted and blessed

contemporary authors but obviously there are also a lot of authors today

that You know, I'm sure that if Charles Edmund Spurgeon were alive and he

were to pick up one of them After about a minute of reading Many of them

he they'd be immediately tossed into the fireplace.

As far as the modern reader what is the value of these books such as a cluster of camphor.

Carry.

Yeah,

I have

been amazed

at

how

often

when I

have

read

Spurgeon.

How the issues that the church faced in the 19th century are very similar to what

we face today and even his criticism of churches parading celebrities

around as The key way to win converts of the celebrities who have

made professions of faith and so on and You know that kind of thing is rampant today.

Obviously, you'll have a church or parachurch ministry immediately wanting

to immediately wanting to thrust forward into the public

limelight somebody.

Just because they have been a well -known sports hero or actor or

Musician or singer or just some well -known figure a loved figure

they will want to thrust that person into the limelight just because they've made some kind of a profession and

very often that that backfires and the church or ministry winds up being embarrassed because the

person Proves to be a false convert, but if you could discuss for a little bit

the the timelessness it seems of the writings of Spurgeon and Other

other of his contemporaries and even men that have written before him like it's amazing.

Sometimes the Puritans even the things that they write about other than the

language That they are using that may that may be a bit archaic when we're talking about the

Puritans or somebody earlier Sometimes it's just amazing how they are spot -on

with things that are happening right now in our culture.

I.

Think Chris that one of the

things that less and less

in the average.

Most of it is

designed to establish

the proven and

that's a rebuffing church.

It's what we give

and the tragic and it's a pitiful sit

even a lot of Christians that are involved in this

we've tried to produce in the

faith.

Praise God for that and.

Yeah, it's it's not it's not only fluff very often it's it's downright heretical and

It's also very often seeking to.

Meet.

The interests of of Christians or even just the general public

in areas that are infinitely less important than the gospel and The

things that are our greatest need to hear about especially our own sin and the only

remedy for that's that's in and the only cure for that sin and the only

preventative from us entering into a Christless eternity and that is

the the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sure.

That's right and so.

If we think we can't learn from people 200 years before us, then what does that make us?

Yeah, and Although he was a very strong Calvinist.

He even was eager to learn from men before him

that did not share that theology like John Wesley and so on.

And we do have a listener in Clinton Township, Michigan

Who writes.

I remember reading something about Charles Spurgeon not being able to get in the pulpit at times due to

Emotional weight and trouble and his grandfather is speaking to him About this and

encouraging him.

Can you elaborate on this at all?

Maybe that's what he's referring to but I don't know anything about Spurgeon's grandfather.

Is this question.

Is our listener being given accurate information about his grandfather being some kind of a help to him.

I don't think

his

grandfather

was involved

with

his

death.

Yeah,

I.

Apologize Jeff, but we ran out of books.

So you're not getting a book today.

But we appreciate you writing in and we hope that you continue To join us on the program with

questions.

Thanks a lot Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan.

And we hope to hear from you again soon.

Let's see here we have.

We have Barney in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know if to your knowledge was Spurgeon at

all affected by the theory of evolution and

Darwinian ism and I don't think that.

I don't think that the Darwin even wrote the origin of the species until

Spurgeon's death perhaps or after his death.

I mean, what do you know anything about that?

He touches

on it in one of

the letters.

Oh, really?

Oh, that's interesting now.

Post -mortem Salvationists who would have been espousing that I'm assuming that is people who teach you can

have the the possibility of Salvation after your after your dead.

Mormonism was that making it?

Yeah, in fact, I

know of I'm

not going to mention him by name, but I know of one.

Person who is a very well -known radio Evangelist perhaps

even on television.

I'm not sure of that, but he Was and perhaps still is a

very popular conservative Baptist speaker.

Who had a reputation for theological soundness for a long time, but then he developed his

own Understandings novel understandings of basically what you were

just saying post -mortem conversion possibilities.

And he coined a phrase called trans dispensational ism That basically says

that he believes some men will have the opportunity to embrace Christ as their Savior

after they're they're dead.

So.

Well, I know that I have.

Well, we're going

to

another

break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's CH RIS AR n Z n at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages with more of our discussion on Susanna Spurgeon.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for my now seeking the approval of man or of God.

Where am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we

do Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guests today are Gary W long and Terry Wolver.

Well, we'll we'll over sorry about that Terry.

And they are pastor and teacher at Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Springfield, Missouri.

And they also operate the ministry of particular Baptist Press.

We are discussing Susanna Spurgeon the princess of the Prince of Preachers.

She was wife of Charles Edmund Spurgeon.

And we've also been discussing a book written by Susanna Spurgeon that particular Baptist

Press has brought back into print a cluster of camphor and if you'd like to join us on the air our

Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have CJ and Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Who wants to know Susanna Spurgeon lived during the Women's

temperance movement and if it had any effect on her and if she had any friendships with the women involved in

it.

For instance I to a

man regard out, but he

would not

endorse

it.

Hmm and.

And.

I'm sorry, it sounded like somebody was gonna say something there.

I don't think that Susanna would.

But it seems like a lot of men out there could learn something about

how Charles had the Spurgeon.

Appreciated the gifts of his wife and you know, he did not have any kind of stereotypical

Misogyny or male chauvinism that one might expect for a man of his time in the

19th century.

That seemed that although he obviously would have been somebody who? believed in.

Biblical.

Gender roles he seems like he included his wife and in his ministry even

the fact that you had Confirmed that she must have helped him on a couple of his

writing projects.

He's a matter.

But I mean, you know,

she never.

I mean they

work together

and.

Let's see.

Oh.

Our guest or not our guest or listener.

Jeff says that he found where he had read about

Charles Haddon Spurgeon's grandfather in the soul winner and He

is he has printed a Or

emailed a an excerpt from that book the soul winner.

I'm assuming that's by Charles Spurgeon.

And it says I remembered the answer.

I received when I once said to my venerable grandfather I Never have to

preach but that I feel very terribly sick literally sick.

I mean so that I might as well be crossing the channel.

And I asked the dear old man whether he thought I Should ever get over that feeling.

His answer was your power will be gone if you do.

So my brethren when it is not so much that you have got a hold of your subject But that

it has got of hold of you and you feel its grip with a terrible reality yourself.

That is the kind of sermon that is most likely to impress others with it so mind that your sermons

always have Something in them which shall really impress both yourself and the hearers

whom you are addressing.

But I appreciate you finding it and thank you very much Jeff.

Who urgent grandfather raised him and when

he did leave his grant that

his grandfather told him that

you go out and you look at?

The moon.

And he loved his grandpa.

Well, thank you.

Thanks again, Jeff.

We Have.

Let's see.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who said I

Believe that years ago someone emailed me an audio file

Where Thomas Spurgeon the son of Charles Haddon Spurgeon? was one

of the very first to use what was at that time the new technology of

Gramophone recording and I heard I believe Thomas's voice

Reading something that his father wrote.

Am I correct in my memory?

I.

Believe that's right.

Yeah,

that's if wouldn't be wonderful if we had.

Actual audio sermons of Charles Haddon Spurgeon today.

That would be that'd be something.

Do we know anything about.

What can you tell us about from what we know about the way people described?

Spurgeon's preaching about what kind of of

Presence he had in the pulpit like for instance We know from history that Jonathan

Edwards was somebody who read his sermons and did not really To my

knowledge raise his voice or things like that where I believe I've read that Spurgeon

very much.

Urged.

Preachers to raise their voice and be very dynamic from the pulpit.

But what can you tell us about Charles's preaching?

Well, I can I can just make reference that his voice was what

he was known

and in there He begins

to and I can't tell you how many pages

Spurgeon speaking how his diction Is how he did flections in the voice

and I mean he goes into great detail just that standpoint

from the voice Spurgeon wanted to make sure that he could be heard anywhere in the tabernacle.

Speaking in a regular

did Susanna Spurgeon write anything

else?

After or before or after a cluster of camphor

one was but

anyway, she did by the way.

Terry what you just did whatever you did to change the volume of your voice was perfect because you.

The last part of your sentence was much clearer than the earlier part.

So, okay.

Appreciate it.

Okay, those two titles are ten years of my life and for ten

years after what we

have.

Let's see here.

We have John From

Carlisle, Pennsylvania who wants to know.

Did Susanna Spurgeon leave any instruction that.

Other.

Wives of pastors can

benefit

from.

Oh my

I'm

sure

now.

Did she seem from what you

know?

And perhaps perhaps you don't know because there's not enough information available.

But do you know if she was Pleased or disappointed with The

way that the leadership Took the mantle from her husband after he

went home to glory.

Did what was there any?

Disappointment in the way that that ministry was run or with the preaching or anything like that.

Well, actually, I think one of her sons took over After he after Charles passed away, correct?

Yes.

Now did he.

Was he the pastor there all the way through and perhaps after?

Susanna Went home to glory or war.

Did he stop the pastor?

Was he no longer the pastor while she was still alive?

That's a good question.

And as far as the doctrines of grace are

concerned.

I have heard you know There's a lot of rewriting of history By

those who despise the doctrines of grace who want to at the same time

Uphold Spurgeon as a hero and then at in the same breath.

They want to denounce The doctrines of grace or Calvinism and of course very often

the claim will be made.

That.

What Spurgeon believed on paper.

He didn't believe in his heart because his preaching in his life.

We're not consistent with the deadening of Calvinism as people will

Very often describe it.

But.

I've heard that the metropolitan tabernacle by Spurgeon's design

You know did not maintain a a focus on the doctrines of grace.

After.

You know he passed on it.

That that was not a major concern to him and so on.

But this is this is really rewriting history, isn't it?

Sure it is.

The.

Pastor though the metropolitan tabernacle right now.

Peter man, yes.

James Smith, that's

right.

And there were

other many that Methodist someone speak at the

Orphanage.

And what

do we

know

about

a T

Pearson's

theology?

No, really?

So was he a congregationalist?

Believe that's his background.

Mm -hmm.

Interesting.

That's very interesting to go to your your own pastors baptismal service.

Let me repeat our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have Teresa and Massapequa, Long Island, New York who wants to know if Susanna

ever lived to be a grandma and.

This obviously is one of your best -selling books for particular Baptist press if you've already

mentioned but tell us about some of the other things that you're offering and.

And why is it that?

Christian biographies are.

You know.

So appealing to us and so many different

levels.

Well, I'd like for it

turned out.

We we did a number of

Genealogists

detailed index and the

names John Gaino,

but John

Gaino.

There is some controversy.

I know involved in an account of him baptizing George Washington

by believers.

Baptism and you have those who believe That it is undoubtedly true

and you have skeptics who say that they don't believe it at all.

What what do you what's your position on it?

No, the last part you were speaking about Abraham Lincoln.

Yeah, okay.

Now where did the when was the artist commissioned to paint

the The portrait of George Washington being baptized by John Gaino.

Well, I actually

happen to

have

a print in my.

Living room of John Gaino praying along with or leading the prayer.

With troops during the Revolutionary War actually after the the Revolutionary War had ended.

Yeah, he and this was supposed to be a historical account where Washington asked Gaino to pray.

Yes, it's a really beautiful print of a really gorgeous painting

of Gaino praying and there are predominantly the the colonists

Troops there, but you do have some British troops in the background also bowing their heads in the in the

painting.

So it's Quite beautiful.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, that's where I got mine, so I'm about.

It's the highlight of my living room and As

I said earlier I also Absolutely loved the biography that my friend John

Thornberry wrote about Spencer Cohn.

Have you read a pastor in New York the life and times of Spencer Cohn?

Yes.

And he was just so in case of any of our listeners tuned in late Spencer Cohn that was a successor

of the pastorate after John Gaino at First Baptist Church in Manhattan, right?

He was about the fourth and that I

believe that that book that.

Brother Thornberry wrote could be a movie.

I mean quite a fascinating life that Spencer Cohn had all the different

Vocations he had and careers and so on and he was an actor a

lawyer a teacher a war hero in the war of 1812 he was a pastor he.

Was a.

During when it during a time when it was very unpopular.

I believe he led Interracial Bible studies and things like that and there was a whole just a whole bunch

of things that were utterly fascinating about him.

We have a new

yes, and

He

oh, that's terrific.

I.

Met Matthew and would love to have him on the program.

Haven't done so yet, but I know he's a very busy guy but I also know that.

My friend John Thornberry son Greg is the current president of the

King's College in Manhattan.

Okay, but.

Yeah, well we have to go to our final break right now.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

We've got about a half hour left.

So try to do that as soon as possible.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA.

Don't go away, we're gonna be right back after these messages with more on Susanna Spurgeon.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen.

If you just tuned us in.

For the entire two -hour program today.

Our guests have been gary w long and terry.

Woliver.

Uh, and uh, i'm, sorry.

We'll ever right I'm sorry about that and uh,

they are pastor and teacher at sovereign grace baptist church in springville, missouri.

And we have been discussing not only susanna spurgeon the princess of the prince of preachers and her book

That has been brought back into print a cluster of camphor That has been brought back into print by our guests through

particular baptist press, but we've also been discussing other issues that were

contemporary of Charles haddon spurgeon and his wife and other books that

have been Either brought back into print or or have been written for the first time by our friends at

particular baptist press and some of our listeners May want to know the

origins of that phrase particular baptist.

They may think these are just fussy baptists but obviously that is not the uh, the

root of that phrase.

If you could tell us about that, uh, That name or that phrase particular baptist.

Go ahead, terry.

And uh.

Today as you both know, uh.

The the baptists that are particular baptists or sovereign grace baptist or calvinist baptist or reform baptist.

We are in a minority perhaps even a tiny minority today, although it seems to be growing.

And there are a number of very gifted men who are writing.

And who uh are.

Whose.

Sermons are being widely circulated on youtube and other places on the internet that have

brought a resurgence of of interest and popularity in regard to the doctrines of grace,

but what wasn't there a time when Those that were calvinistic baptists were actually in the great.

Majority,

that's what

our country

was.

The philadelphia of 1742 the

philadelphia edition.

What what about the congregational singing?

Can you repeat that?

They added they added a.

Oh, I I didn't even

know that.

Uh, I knew that

there was a controversy and still is.

In regard to uh, exclusive psalmody and acapella versus

uh hymns and instrumental music, but I had not known that there were churches that

Uh forbid the congregation from singing in a worship service.

Benjamin now,

did

anybody sing in the worship service?

Was it the leaders of the pastor or nobody?

Well, that's

interesting.

Yeah, because you know that.

Not that I would advocate that view but uh There is some logic.

In connection with it.

If like for instance most men that I know Uh whose theology I

respect and and agree with would say that it is improper for

a christian to worship with an a non -believer in the sense that you are

Uh praying with them.

There's a difference between praying with them and for them and um.

So that I could see I could see that there being some kind of a connection with that but obviously.

To take it to that extreme you're violating a command and the scripture isn't.

The singing is supposed to be a part of.

What?

Jesus christ has established as a in the blueprint for a worship service.

But as you know music is.

But it's always been a problem.

Even spurgeon wouldn't let us.

That's right finest instrument.

There sang acapella, although iris sankey did bring his little.

I heard that uh spurgeon made him.

Play it in the basement or something.

Oh as far as I know, I think he allowed it in.

But thank you

for thank you to

lead and uh,

just

out of

curiosity, I

know I know that there are some.

Uh baptists today who.

And other christians who who do not who agree with spurgeon on not using instrumental music and worship.

What is your opinion on

it.

An opinion?

I mean i'm not bringing drums.

And uh, I I actually love the harp singing of the primitive baptist, but I do

have some Uh serious problems with some of their hyper calvinism and I

have to make sure I don't broad brush the whole movement.

But uh, wouldn't you say that some of the the primitive baptists are guilty of hyper calvinism where

uh, the the gospel the preaching of the gospel is not used of the lord to to bring

souls to regeneration.

The primitive baptists today are anti

-messian

baptists,

and by the

way

going

back to

spurgeon's.

Uh forbidding musical instruments in worship, I was wondering if you could verify this story that I had

heard.

Uh, because I know that there is folklore that this pastor ran a path spurgeon that isn't true or

unverifiable.

But I heard the story of someone asking spurgeon Is it acceptable to have an organ?

in your church.

And spurgeon said absolutely if the pipes are filled with cement.

Now, is that true?

Do you know if it's true?

Uh.

Anyway, um the uh.

Now.

As far as your books because this is the books that you have brought back into print are obviously.

Uh.

Books that seem to be primarily intended for people.

Who.

Love and cherish writers of the past and so on.

Uh, have you been surprised in either direction by

Specific books or books of yours in general from particular baptist press that have

either been.

Uh very.

Uh strongly welcomed and enthusiastically embraced beyond what you thought and.

Perhaps

the other way as

well

where

they've been

ignored.

Uh, yes

definitely.

Surrender time.

And then uh,.

Can you expand a little bit more about this?

Communion controversy.

Yeah, and

uh, the

thing

that

you

brought

up earlier

that

uh

still.

Fascinates me about uh, at pearson being baptized after he was already a

pastor there.

Uh.

Did spurgeon I mean this obviously occurred after spurgeon went home to glory, but did spurgeon believe?

That.

That pato baptist should be welcomed into membership even apart.

From being baptized as believers by

immersion.

There

is

actually.

How can you

make it?

Yeah, that does.

That seems to be kind of odd there uh, but as far as the baptism issue, did he.

Did he know that mr. Pearson?

Was not baptized as a believer by immersion.

Uh, you know, i'm curious as to how At pearson became a member of that church, uh

being a pato baptist prior to.

The point where he was finally convinced to be immersed.

Yeah, i'm not sure that he was received as a member.

He was called as a pastor.

He was not a member from the

pulpit.

Yeah, that's uh interesting the even the concept of being a pastor of a church and not a member of it.

Is this uh, right.

Very novel concept and perhaps it's not that novel.

I just haven't uh, really heard of it.

Occurring some of your readers and listeners might be interested.

And do you happen to have handy the contact information for the the seminar?

Oh, you can just pull it up.

Midwestern,

uh, midwestern.

Baptist theological seminary.

Adhere to the same theology as spurgeon had held

to.

Well, I will say

definitely their

president.

Praise god for that.

I'm, i'm happy because uh, as I said, it always has disturbed me when those who do

not believe in the doctrines of grace uh, I mean i'm obviously

thrilled when The non -reformed or the non -calvinist or the arminian?

uh are enthusiastically reading and enjoying spurgeon, but when they begin to

Rewrite history that that is disturbing, uh to me as I know that unfortunately, some of the

non -calvinist fundamentalists have done in the past and actually.

Changed some of the wording in his in his writings.

We uh.

Both of

them did x

praise god

for that, by

the way, I happen to look up.

Online just so I could announce the website of the midwestern baptist theological seminary.

For those listening who want to uh tour the spurgeon library

and so on.

It's mbts .edu mb for midwestern

baptist Ts for theological seminary dot edu.

So, uh, we hope that uh that a number of you Uh listening take advantage of that.

It's a treasure right here in the midwest

and uh, we do have a listener in indianapolis, indiana.

Uh, aaron.

And uh, she asks I have to enlarge her question because i'm going

blind.

So I have to enlarge her email.

Um I.

Loved the general baptist information as my grandfather and great -grandfather were both

Gp heretical preachers and she's making a joke out of that there.

Um, actually I guess so I guess that was not a question.

I'm I I.

I was too quick on the trigger finger.

I thought this was going to be a question.

But uh, I guess she's speaking of the uh,.

The general baptists who did not believe in particular redemption in america

today, but

are the general baptists.

Yeah,

because

most.

Even even baptists that are Non -calvinistic or even anti -calvinistic

most baptists who have a strong view of.

Uh.

The free will of men.

The autonomous free will of men.

They.

They would not believe that you could lose your salvation at least the majority of them.

Yeah, they would.

They would claim to.

Believe in eternal security, but not perseverance and preservation of the saints.

Well, I want to make sure that uh you men.

In.

About the five minutes or so that we have left really.

Say what you most believe needs to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we leave the

program.

Well, let me just say uh.

We

think

that it's dedicated

that we

have standing orders with

over 80 college nobody is.

Depressed .org.

Right.

And and I don't want to leave out your church website.

For sovereign grace baptist church in springfield, missouri, right?

It's s g b c Springfield .org.

That's sg for sovereign grace bc for baptist church springfield dot org.

Right.

And uh, terry, do you have any final comments?

Yes, um, I

just

wanted to.

Uh, oh,

yeah.

And the

first

on one hand the

bad.

Yeah.

Amen.

I always enjoy

that too.

I

always love

discovering.

A great writer or preacher or teacher from the past that I had not known of before.

Uh, including, uh, I don't know if you've ever read anything by a 19th century Low

church anglican stephen ting, but he also pastored in

Manhattan in the 19th century and uh is a really phenomenal writer.

Uh, obviously, uh.

Episcopalians and anglicans like him today are Harder and harder to find they do exist.

But uh, right, right, but uh.

In closing, can I just

mention that we we are

running

a special to

friends and have

traveling

group?

It's a useful book.

Yeah, I uh, I

loved that fact myself when I saw them arrive in the mail.

Uh.

Very handy for bringing into hospitals and so on.

Well, I want to thank you brothers so much for being a part of my program today and let me repeat one more time

the uh the website, uh for uh, particular baptist press

it is Pbpress .org.

That's easy to remember pb for particular baptist press .org.

And I do want to remind the listeners that uh, thanks be to god i'm going to be god

willing at the g3 conference.

Uh, january 19th through the 21st in atlanta, georgia.

Featuring paul washer stephen. J. Lawson da carson voddie. Balcom.

James r white.

Conrad m. Bayway, who is one of the most powerful?

Preachers on the planet earth from kibwata baptist church in lusaka.

Zambia.

Uh phil johnson from grace to you ministries of john macarthur and many more speakers are

going to be there.

I'm going to have an exhibitors booth and I hope to see you there at g3 conference .com is where to go for more information

G3conference .com that's g the number three conference .com.

And I hope uh, you can come and uh, I pray that the lord enables you to find a way to get there

if you don't think you can go right now.

I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior Than you are a

sinner.

Have a safe and blessed weekend and lord's day.