Online Church: Is Online-Church the Ecclesiastical Equivalent of Transgender-Male?

2 views

January 24, 2022

EPISODE SUMMARY In this episode we seek to discuss the biblical legitimacy of online church as an alternative to traditional Sunday gatherings. What are some factors that have given rise to the online church movement? What should a person do if they have a sneaky suspicion that their loved one is watching an online worship gathering in lieu of their own faithful in person attendance?

00:02: Warning the following message may be offensive to some audiences these audiences may include but are not limited to professing Christians who never read their
00:07: Bible sissies Sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white nights for men with man buns Homemakers who have finished
00:13: Netflix, but don't know how to meal plan and people who refer to their pets as fur babies Viewer discretion is advised People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio
00:27: The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone And any who reject
00:33: Christ therefore forfeit any hope of Salvation any hope of heaven
00:40: The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is
00:48: Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come
00:58: They will be consumed and they will perish God wrapped himself in flesh
01:04: Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day
01:11: Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us
01:17: Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand
01:30: Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the work of ministry We're your host
01:35: Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet today. We seek to answer the age -old question is online church the ecclesiastical equivalent of transgender male
01:44: But before we answer the question since this is our first episode it might be helpful
01:49: Tim for you to explain the purpose of the podcast So the name we chose for the podcast is
01:56: Bible bashed Podcast and the reason why we chose that kind of name is because when you're living in a society that is really filled with a lot of nominal
02:05: Christians there is like the moment the moment that you try to bring the
02:12: Bible to bear on a Particular situation if you say hey, but what about this verse that says this?
02:19: One of the things that you're gonna realize is there's any number of names that are the society We live in will have for you as that kind of person
02:26: I mean you'll be called a Pharisee. You'll be called a legalist. You'll be called a hypocrite No, you think you're so spiritual and you know quit and one of the things that's kind of a funny way.
02:35: That is That that will be described attributed to you is that Essentially, you'll be told that you're trying to Bible bash people.
02:46: So if if you have That you develop a reputation to be that kind of person who
02:54: Is always trying to Bible bash people and what's funny about that Phrase is if you look up the term
03:01: Bible basher in the Cambridge Dictionary It says this it says someone who tries in a forceful or enthusiastic
03:09: Way to persuade other people to believe in the Christian religion in the Bible And I mean, it's just a hilarious definition because I mean that that essentially is
03:18: Jonathan Edwards sinners in the hands of an angry God, he's he's someone who's trying in a forceful or enthusiastic way to persuade other people to believe in the
03:26: Christian religion The Bible that's John the Baptist, you know, you bearded vipers who warned you to flee from wrath to come.
03:31: That's Jesus, right? the time is Near the kingdom. God is at hand repent and believe the gospel.
03:37: I mean that's that's faithful That's Christian faithful Christian Christianity one -on -one. And so one of the things that we're trying to do is just basically say hey, you know
03:45: We're gonna you know be unashamed and we're gonna Enthusiastically and forcefully try to persuade you to you know
03:53: Actually believe what the Bible says and obey it and we're gonna do so without apology and we know that you have a word for people like that and we're happy if that's what we are if we're
04:02: Bible bashers by Trying to just get you to obey the Bible then, you know, so be it and so that's what we're thinking with The title is just an ironic way of saying well
04:12: If that's what the word means meaning the worst term by usage then sure whatever
04:18: Okay. Well, hopefully that's a helpful answer for anyone listening who might have been kind of on You know on the fence about the approach of this podcast
04:29: I'm sure there will still be certain people who are very upset honestly, no matter what we do or what we say so Now now as we turn our attention to the actual question is online church the ecclesiastical equivalent of Transgender male.
04:46: I think it might be helpful just to kind of talk about you know
04:51: Start start off with saying, you know, what what is online church? What are we talking about when we're using that term online church if you could kind of explain that for us a little bit
05:01: Tim Sure, so I think for many years you've had a movement
05:09: Towards the idea of online church and online church is just The idea that in instead of you know the
05:19: Christians coming together on the Lord's Day and Gathering at a particular place or particular building or something along those lines.
05:26: You can just You know watch a live stream of a church service on you know zoom recently or just on a church website or something like that and like the idea behind the the project is that since Christians are you know personally in some sense the dwelling place of God and You know, the time is coming and now is where you know
05:50: Christ followers will not worship him in Jerusalem But will worship him in spirit and truth and father's looking to draw such believers to himself
05:58: I mean these these ideas are being presented in such a way that There really isn't not anything sacred about the in -person gathering of the
06:06: Saints at a particular place Etc. So you have the idea of online church being an idea that basically you can just watch a church service online and And basically get you know your check mark for Lord's Day attendance in some metaphorical sense in that way and It seems to have it seems to be something that Well, it's it's a it's a unique Unique relevance to us right now considering, you know, all that has happened with this
06:48: COVID stuff that has been going on and so So I think it's a it's a discussion that really has gained steam since The you know the pandemic or whatever you want to call that It's it's been a discussion that really has come to the forefront and one of the things that I think has been pretty disturbing about the discussion itself is the fact that you know, you're talking about a
07:14: An idea that the vast majority of churches like faithful biblical churches
07:23: Have have rejected for years, you know there's there's been plenty of people trying to push this idea for years and years and years and then one of the things that's been kind of disturbing to watch is that even faithful churches seem to be
07:37: Like immediately, okay, you know the government tells us to shut down and we can't meet for in -person worship and you know
07:44: The liquor stores and everything else can stay open what we can't and we all follow suit and then you know
07:49: There's there's some churches that I think said well, okay, let's just make the best of a bad situation and stream
07:57: You know some kind of you know online singing and Bible study together via zoom format or something like that but I think one of the things that's been disturbing to watch is that so many people seem to Like all of a sudden realize like not have any biblical arguments in their arsenal as to distinguish that from what if the church has done for 2 ,000 years and so it seemed that You know, there's plenty of churches out there.
08:26: They're governed by pragmatism and Like they really have functionally zero ecclesiology. And so when that When the government tells us to shut down I think it's been somewhat shocking to me to see how many churches that I thought were faithful Just seemed to accept the idea of online church in a way that they never would have before but now all of a sudden due to Pressure, it seems like they have no tools in their toolkit in order to Critique that in any way, but yeah, it really seems like you know within the last
09:02: Year or two years. I mean it feels like this kind of came in some ways out of out of just Nowhere where obviously obviously churches were streaming their services and I'm sure there were plenty of people who who did view
09:19: Those stream services as you know, quote -unquote attendance to the actual church but then it really seems like in the last two years, especially with the kovat stuff going on that That everyone yeah whole churches really started encouraging this kind of practice as Almost the primary way to worship.
09:41: Do you agree with that? well, yeah, I mean it's it's it's kind of like a fast -food restaurant phenomenon to where You know post kovat.
09:51: It seems like customer service is dead and like I hate to draw a parallel at this point, but look
09:58: I mean, I get enough customer service is dead, but then I think many of the
10:05: Churches are many fast -food restaurants realize that hey why open up when it just costs more money and there's overhead, you know
10:11: All the overhead that's associated with an in -person staff it's like we can just do this drive -thru thing because everyone's so afraid and and you know terrified and like we can
10:21: We can actually increase our profits by just having a minimal drive -thru crew.
10:27: That's operational We don't have to worry about cleaning a dining room and do all this stuff and and it seems that you know there's many churches that have just You know, the truth is
10:38: I think they're pragmatic to the core and that's what governed them anyways and they're making a similar kind of calculation as it relates to this and and it's like they've never thought through the issue before and and I think that's been what's been somewhat
10:53: Somewhat surprising to me even though I probably shouldn't be surprised but it's been a little bit surprised I mean and I shouldn't be surprised because we've been doing nonsense like this with you know, multi -site churches and you know
11:05: Everything else or even toying around with a bad ecclesiology for years and seeker sensitive churches and everything else but but then it seems that You know right when there was societal pressure put on, you know, the corporate in in in person gathering of a church
11:21: Many churches just seemed to roll over and cave and you know, actually probably think
11:27: I'm in this is a better you know business model as far as that goes, but Careful Tim you're gonna you're gonna upset the multi -site church people.
11:37: We're just going for the online people right now Well, okay, you know you said you said something about This is just something that a lot of people really haven't
11:53: Thought through critically before so and talking about that a little bit when it comes to you know
12:02: Attending online church and whether you should or whether you shouldn't and this is kind of a this is really a moral decision that's being made a moral question that's being raised by a lot of people and So so in light of that, you know, obviously as Christians we look to the
12:20: Bible To inform us of what is right and what is wrong? So so what exactly?
12:27: Does the Bible have to say about whether a person should attend church quote -unquote?
12:34: online As opposed to in person. I mean does the but I mean obviously the Bible doesn't say anything about there's no command that says
12:41: You know thou shalt not watch Facebook live on Sunday morning, right? So so what does what does the
12:48: Bible say that could be helpful for us and answering this kind of moral question? Yeah, I think the the way that you frame that does get at the nature of our question, you know as far as the question being that is online church the
13:07: You know the ecclesiastical equivalent of transgender male like when you say attend online churches
13:14: Immediately, one of the things you realize is that you're doing something funny with language, right? and so you're using words in ways that are very
13:25: Unconventional and not only you're using words in unconventional ways You're using words in ways that I mean no one throughout your church history would ever recognize
13:33: And so part of the part of the thing is that we believe in a book. That's a time -bound Document and so the
13:39: Bible has relevance for today But then whatever practice that we come up with that we're trying to establish from the scripture
13:45: It needs to have some sort of precedence in the Bible either through precept or example or command or whatever else, right?
13:52: And so I think the thing is this is a new idea That has come about and it's a new idea.
14:00: That's come about I In many ways just I think that the people have been pushing this kind of idea for years
14:09: They really haven't had a robust ecclesiology when it comes to it anyways But then now it's just something we've latched on to out of some sort of desperation as far as that goes
14:19: And so, you know biblically you have to ask, you know, what does the Bible actually command us?
14:25: to do right and so You know the author
14:31: Hebrews and Hebrews 10 25 tells us Essentially that we are not to forsake the assembly of the
14:37: Saints as is the habit of some But you know
14:43: Encourage one another as you see the day drawing near this idea of not forsake the assembly of the Saints The thing is like if you want to understand what the church is in terms of its essence.
14:54: What is the church? A part of the answer to you know This online church kind of phenomenon is to just go back to just you know, church 101 and what is the church?
15:04: What is it? Right? Well, the word for church that you're gonna find in the Bible is the word ecclesia now feel
15:14: Ecclesi is the word for church and that that's you know, the word where we get ecclesiology, which is study of a church or you know, even like the book of Ecclesiastes comes from That word or Ecclesiastical matters which are matters that are pertaining to church or clergy or anything else
15:29: And so like this word ecclesia is the word in Greek that we translate into English as church
15:35: And so if you want to know what that word means Well, one of the things to realize is that in the
15:42: New Testament, so this word ecclesia 90 94 .3 % of the time by my own You know calculation
15:49: Ecclesia is being I Looked them all up but 94 .3
15:55: % of the time it's translated as church 1 .9 % of the time is translated as congregation.
16:00: Okay, and then it's Translated as assembly three point eight percent of the time.
16:07: So those are just rough figures But that'll give you some idea but like if you want to know what the word means
16:13: I mean, it's it's it's really I mean you can look it up in a You can look it up in any kind of good
16:19: Greek dictionary like the BDAG or something like that or Greek lexicon And you're gonna find that they're gonna translate it as assembly.
16:26: Mm -hmm. And the reason why they're doing that It's not mysterious why they're doing that. Why are they translating it as assembly? Why is that the primary meaning of the word?
16:32: Well, I mean, all right look Like you just read through the the Old Testament right, and there's a
16:40: If you want to get an idea of what these words mean, I know this is somewhat technical But but I'm just trying to tell you, you know where this comes about but you read through the
16:49: Old Testament like there's a Greek version of the Old Testament called the Septuagint or the LXX and You can look up an echo
16:55: Ecclesia in the Old Testament and you can look it up in every single case and and one of the things you're gonna realize is
17:01: Ecclesia is always a translation of the Hebrew word Cajal and The Hebrew word
17:07: Cajal is a word that's translated into English as either assembly or congregation like that I mean the word
17:13: Ecclesia means assembly. That's what it means. Okay So that's what it means.
17:19: And so if you understand what the church actually is the church is an assembly of people Okay So what is assembly?
17:27: What is an assembly? I mean, what does that mean? Well an assembly is is a thing that we think it's a very easily definable concept
17:35: It's a group of people gathered together usually for a particular purpose whether religious political educational or social
17:40: It's a group of people gathered together. That's what it is. So if you're gonna have an assembly you have people gathered together, right?
17:47: Mm -hmm. So you have a word that's basically like a spatial temporal word in order to have it have an assembly
17:54: You need to have a group of people come together in a particular place at a particular time that's what it means and that's the word that God chose to use to describe what the church actually is that and what and and If you think about like what that means
18:09: What that means is that? Christians are the church when we gather together
18:17: On the Lord's Day. Mm -hmm in his name and in his presence you understand what I'm saying? we're not the church like, you know, we we've we've had like I think years and years of a
18:26: Pretty poor ecclesiology to where you know, we tell people, you know go out and be the church It's like well, you can't go out and be a assembly.
18:34: Can you? Like that doesn't make any sense, okay, like we are the church when we gather together, right and so When it knew in Hebrews 10 25 tells us not to forsake the assembly
18:48: Assembling together. That's the word epistemic. Okay, which basically means assembly We're we're the assembly, right?
18:55: So I basically just give you a biblical case first. I mean church means assembly That's what it means.
19:00: It means assembly And then, you know, this is like stated in so many ways in the
19:06: Bible, I mean there's language of coming together, right? So first Corinthians 11 18, it says for in the first place when you come together as a church
19:13: I hear that there are divisions among you and I believe it in part Like think about that phrase like when you come together as a church
19:21: What does it mean? Like what does it mean to be the church? It means to come together as a church. When do we do that? We do that on the
19:26: Lord's Day, right? Matthew 18 20 and there's a lot you can say about this passage and people have you know
19:34: Corrupted the meaning of this passage to basically talk about you know, the church, you know, whenever you know
19:41: Three individual Christians are gathered together You know in the context of some sort of home Bible study or something else that God is there and so you don't need to Come to some sort of corporate gathering or anything like that But but like the whole idea there is that that's said in the context of church discipline and where you know
19:57: Two or three are gathered as witnesses. You need every Every fact will be confirmed on the basis of two or three witness two or three are gathered my name
20:05: The Bible says there I am among you you know, the church like is described as a gathering of people a
20:11: Assembly of people who come together on a particular time at a particular place, right? So you just think about every intro and in the
20:19: Bible right every intro in the New Testament the Church of God We're in their own homes
20:25: You know skyping each other Facebook but no, but I mean the
20:33: Church of God at Corinth, right the Church of God so the assembly of God like if you if you think about church in the way that the word means the assembly of God at Corinth that means a certain thing, right?
20:45: and so Like the church you have all this come -together language the church when it gathered is described as the temple of God, right?
20:53: so First Timothy 315 if I delay you may know how you want not to behave in the household of God Which is the
21:01: Church of the Living God a pillar and the butchers of truth, right? In the house like the church when it gathers together is a picture of the the temple of God, right?
21:12: And so and I think when you think about the way that this word is actually used
21:18: I mean I could just go on and on and on about Like all the ways in which the
21:24: Bible describes the church and and and I think this is what's just so troubling about it It's just like a like those arguing for online church.
21:32: Like have you ever read the Bible before? that's what you wonder like, you know that this is like a
21:39: Bunch of like the New Testament is a bunch of letters written to churches and you don't even know what a church is, right? It's a gathering of people but then
21:46: I mean like the whole idea of the church is Is is basically it's like It's like the whole metaphors of the church.
21:55: They're picking up on all the imagery of the Old Testament the old covenant, right? Mm -hmm. So like just think about just think about this.
22:02: Okay, so Adam and Eve are walking and talking with God in the cool of the day, right?
22:08: Mm -hmm, and then when they send their cast out of Eden away from the presence of the Lord, right?
22:13: Mm -hmm cast out of Eden. So where was God's presence is his presence was found In the garden, right?
22:21: and then if you're if you just like just do a simple like get a Bible search program and look up presence of God and one of the things you're gonna find is after Cain sins
22:29: What happens he's cast out of God's presence, right? And he's forced to be a wanderer and I mean theological.
22:36: What does that teach you? It teaches you that sin separates us from God's presence, right? All right.
22:42: Well Jonah, what does he do when he's written rebellion against God? It says he he he
22:50: Basically went away from the presence of Lord, right? And so instead of going where God calls him to do it says he went away from the presence of Lord this whole presence of The Lord language like sin separates us from God's presence, but where's
23:02: God's presence found in the Old Covenant in the 10th of meeting, right?
23:07: I mean, it's found in the 10th of meeting. It's found in the temple. And so like the whole idea of God's presence is
23:13: God's like people Basically God is said to dwell uniquely in the 10th of meeting and in the in the temple
23:22: And in the tabernacle and then all this language is picked up in a New Testament to where now No longer is
23:28: God uniquely in Jerusalem, right? So why does Daniel pray facing Jerusalem because that's where God was that's where his presence was his presence in the temple now
23:35: Obviously God's omnipresent and you know David knew that he says, you know, where can I go to hide myself from your presence?
23:42: You know behold if I make my bed and shale you were there So it doesn't say anything about the omnipresence of God but like the issue is just to say that God's presence was uniquely there in the temple and then all of a sudden the church when it gathers on the
23:55: Lord's Day They now become the new temple of the Living God. And so You know, that's just a few
24:07: I think Biblical reasons to Understand the church as a particular thing now when you talk about the idea of like online church or something along those lines
24:17: Then what you're doing is you're fundamentally toying with this notion of assembly and basically redefining it to basically
24:27: In a meaning to basically just to communicate semantically The exact opposite of what's actually the word actually means if that makes sense.
24:38: Mm -hmm Man Tim you're going Greek on him on the first episode
24:48: Um Yeah, no, okay, so so obviously there's a there's a biblical precedent for why
24:59: Why You know, this should be a pretty clear This should be a pretty easy
25:06: Moral question to answer should we do online church as our primary, you know means of attendance or not?
25:16: But what and and you I think you've explained that pretty well New and Old Testament why
25:23: It should be clear that we shouldn't use online churches as a substitute for gathering together in Person, but then and and I think you kind of addressed this a little bit already but then could you go into a little more detail in terms of You know,
25:41: I'm sure there are people out there who are familiar with some of these verses that you're mentioning that you're bringing up But then for whatever reason they still are convinced that it's totally fine
25:54: Given the given the circumstances of everything that's that's been going on throughout this year and especially last year that still
26:02: Justify hey, no, you can you can stay at home and and that's just as good God's still honored and you turn it on your computer or pulling up your phone or turn it on your
26:13: TV and and Watching church and singing by yourself in your pajamas so so what's the what is the you know explanation that these that these kinds of people are giving in spite of The verses that it seems like are really clear and hard to argue with Yeah, no,
26:33: I don't I don't think that every Problem is an intellectual problem
26:39: Okay, as far as that goes and so I don't think that Look I you know the job
26:47: I was just I'm working at right now. I Was talking to a guy and he
26:54: Yeah, I basically, you know told him I was pastor and everything else and you know He basically just as I was doing work for him.
27:02: He Gave me his testimony or whatever and he said, you know, I used to be one of those Christians who?
27:10: You know every Lord's Day essentially, I would go out fishing or hunting or everything else and I just I didn't see the need for Need to go to church, right?
27:21: And the way that people typically justify that kind of thing is just you know The standard tropes
27:27: God didn't come to give us a religion but came to give us a relationship and you know there's there's kind of low
27:32: Protestant errors along those lines that are basically just anti -authority anti any kind of rules or regulations that are functionally are just governed by kind of an antinomian ism that I hate any notion of commands right or any
27:48: Requirements that God has given us and anything that feels formal or anything that feels religious like seems like Catholic or something like that and so like that's so, you know, we you know if I'm a
28:00: Christian like the the kind of thinking goes and I become you know, The Holy Spirit comes to live inside of me and you know, the priesthood of all believers and all that kind of stuff
28:10: They may not communicate those ideas, but those ideas are coming together in a uniquely kind of anti -authoritarian anti -religious kind of way
28:19: To end up to where you know, I could you know worship to them You know becomes all about where they feel
28:26: You know close to God or something like that. And so you have like an anti -authoritarian thing that's happening
28:32: You have a you know, I think a vast biblical ignorance that's added to that anti -authoritarian sentiment, right?
28:40: and then you add to that kind of a individualism and a kind of antinomian ism and all that you put it all together in a pot and you get this idea that and then you get like a like a
28:54: The worship is all about me like a man -centered kind of thing you put put all that in a pot and you end up with the kind of guy who thinks that they can you know feel
29:02: God's presence and worship God just as well while they're hunting or something like that, right? because the creation declares the glory of God and all that and so and these kind of people have existed for a long time and and part of it is
29:16: I think the fault of many churches who seem to Totally, you know undermine like a biblical ecclesiology almost at every single point, right?
29:29: And so I think there's been these people for many years at many many years And then
29:34: I think you've had You know like many What's the right term
29:42: I mean you have like the seeker sensitive movement come along and basically treat individual
29:48: Christians as consumers and everything else and in order to You know figure out what you're gonna teach and figure out how you're gonna you know
29:55: What kind of you know programs are gonna use and everything else you pull the audience and and figure out what the people want
30:01: And so there's and we have been a thousands of churches here and you know a church for every you know person type of person, you know, you have a cowboy church you have a you know church for homeless strippers or whatever else you have like you just I Don't know
30:20: I want to be in that Somewhat almost
30:26: You know, I wish that I was like Almost any kind of church like that.
30:32: You can come up with is some kind of monstrosity like that You can probably do an internet search and find it, you know,
30:38: I mean, it's that bad at this point but but but did you say that there was a church that was
30:44: Totally like it was it was for video gamers or something. Yeah. Yeah.
30:49: Yeah. Yeah, there's a church Like It's almost beyond Perry at this point, right?
31:02: And so with that kind of thing, it's all just you know The customers right and you know, whatever the people want and everything else and so it's all person first and so I think you put all that all those kind of things together in a like and then you don't have like a generation of strong Bible readers anymore
31:22: We spend far too much time doing other things and just you know Open a Bible and reading it and so there's
31:28: I think American churches just characterized by vast big biblical ignorance almost every single conceivable point and There's a church for many people was just that thing that we did and we never had a real rationale or reason why we're doing
31:41: It as far as that goes anyways, right? And so so you have all those things that have produced the kind of person who just like you know, they prayed the prayer one time that walking out or whatever and then you know, then they asked
31:59: Jesus in their heart and then you know, basically at that point once saved always saved and God makes no moral demands upon them anymore and they can just go live like the world the flesh and the devil and then
32:11: You know understand anything the Bible says about What it even means to be a Christian, right?
32:16: And how like precarious a position you place yourself in when the Bible says they went out from us because they were not of us but they left that it might be shown that they are not of us and so like you don't have a generation of people who
32:31: Understands that God's plan for this age is to build a church. He says to Peter, you know You are
32:37: Peter and on this rock. I'll build this church in the case of hell will not prevail against it Okay, that's what he's doing in the world.
32:42: He's building a church He's building an assembly of people and when we may gather together in his name on the
32:48: Lord's on the Lord's Day we are His building project in a very unique sense
32:53: We are what he's doing in the world in the primary sense like his plan for this age Anyway, so all those things get put into a pot and I think it it's like you end up with just Almost no understanding of ecclesiology period right?
33:12: Okay. No, that's pretty COVID though Okay, and so then the COVID stuff happens and then
33:17: I think you have a different dynamic that's going on Okay, and so meaning
33:23: I mean like basically There is the type of person who like basically
33:31: Spent who wants to claim to be a Christian, but then you know Goes to Alabama football games like with their season pass and passes and you know
33:40: Misses every single church gathering during football season or hunting season or whatever.
33:46: There's that kind of person There's the kind of person who shows up to church on Easter and Christmas and you know
33:51: I try to be a good person and all that There's been that kind of person for a long time But now all of a sudden with the
33:57: COVID stuff then now that kind of person has the moral high ground to essentially forsake the
34:03: Assembly of the Saints out of like concerns about safety and everything else and So for them,
34:09: I think like I think this whole thing has been You know kind of revealing and and I mean
34:15: I'm quite quite frankly I don't think any many people who are actually Claiming to do this online church thing or actually when it comes down to it sitting there and watching the service and singing along Anyways, you know
34:29: But it is a you know Very easy way to kind of excuse their functional apostasy and everything else then
34:37: I think you have like that You know, then you have all the churches like I think the leaders like that's happening at the congregation level but I think you have
34:44: I think you have plenty of leaders who really have not thought very deeply about what it means to To stand in opposition to a culture which is hostile to the things that God I mean, it's kind of like It's kind of funny.
35:00: I mean going to seminary This is a question that you know, just it's relevant a side note but I mean it's one of those things that you
35:07: I Can't tell you how many times it brought up in the context of seminary classrooms and everything else where?
35:14: You know individuals say, you know, all right, what? Like the
35:20: Bible says, you know be subject to the governing authorities and everything else So what whether what are times where we would disobey the government and in almost, you know everything
35:28: I can't think of a time where it's like well, if you know If the government says we can't go to church or if the government says we can't evangelize then you don't need to listen to them
35:36: Right, but then you know, but then like immediately kovat happens and you know
35:42: Whatever that is and then all of a sudden it's just like well, I guess it's unsafe to go to church you know for the next year or whatever and it's like hey,
35:51: I thought this was one of those situations that we've been told for years was one of the times where we disobeyed the government and And yet, you know when push comes to shove and you're now actually in that situation.
36:04: It's gonna actually require courage You know, it's much easier just to keep the people happy and not have to have a faith that cost you anything and go to the
36:14: You know, and then basically just butcher your ecclesiology beyond recognition, you know That's the point but well, yeah
36:24: So there's basically two different ways we can kind of take this conversation I guess the way we'll go is is first just starting off Since you were since you're talking about the the kovat nonsense that's been going on For the last year and a half or so or no two years now,
36:42: I guess So with in light of in light of that in light of the kovat thing
36:50: You know, do you think there's any kind of precedent for saying? Hey, you know what at this point like we can't keep meeting in -person
36:59: Is there you know, we talked about the Bible has a very clear has very clear commands about saying no
37:06: You need to actually gather in person to not forsake the assembly of the same, right?
37:11: Right, like those those are very clear verses. So does that mean like there's no room to ever say hey you you know
37:18: We can't meet in person, you know For for this so reason. Yeah.
37:24: So what do you think? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah What what I thought was happening was something along these lines and so I mean if you just imagine that you know, you're
37:38: The Bible talks about like the destruction of Jerusalem, right and so in the destruction of Jerusalem Jesus says pray that your flight is not on You know a
37:47: Sabbath essentially, right or pray that you know It's not when you're pregnant and everything else or on a
37:53: Sabbath or whatever else The issue is like if the Romans are coming to destroy you
38:01: Jesus Jesus tells them he tells them to flee to the mountains, right flee the mountains So if like you're about to die like you run away, right and then he says pray that your flight is not on You know winter or a
38:13: Sabbath or whatever else, right? So like the thing is like I think we all understand that God can you know if God is sending judgment upon a people or something like that or if there's a plague coming whatever
38:28: Let's just you know pretend that it's a real plague for the sake of argument or whatever else
38:33: But in cases like that you're being chased by an enemy army. What do you do? I mean you you run right you you flee you flee
38:42: Okay, I mean like if you're living in, you know Europe or whatever and the Black Plague comes and half the population of Europe is like dead
38:50: From the Black Plague. I think you you know, well, you might want to stay inside and See what happens, you know if China Were to drop nukes on us or something like that.
39:01: I think we would probably not go to church we would probably Try to hide in our bunkers that we made because we saw the signs coming
39:13: Because Covid has turned us all into preppers or something. But no, I mean look look I mean you're hiding in your bunker you do it
39:19: You're waiting waiting the nuclear fallout out or whatever else, right? Okay Alright, so just imagine though that you're in the first century and you're fleeing from the
39:27: Romans and you're being chased And it is on a Sabbath day like when they worshipped and and everything else Like what do you do if you have like what just like just think like have an anachronistic an example
39:37: You have a cell phone in first century Jerusalem right and you're all running from the people like I Would imagine that faithful believers at that time if they had the ability to Like say, okay.
39:57: Well, we can't gather together As is as God commands us to do and so what we're gonna do is we're gonna pull out our phones and like we'll make
40:06: The best of a bad situation. Let's get let's have a Bible study and sing some songs you know via video and Just hope that you know cast yourself on the mercy of God and say
40:17: I hope hope this is better than nothing, right? Yeah So, I mean
40:23: I think everyone can imagine that kind of scenario and quite frankly when churches did that kind of thing during the pandemic
40:29: I mean you're told that like Millions of people would be dead in a few, you know in a month or something it's just like whoa, whoa, like what in the world is happening and like obviously that didn't happen, but Look, I mean, it's just like I think many churches like said, all right
40:46: Well, let's make the best of a bad situation. And I thought what was happening was that they were Not I thought they were just basically saying.
40:54: All right. Well, let's You know Use the technology we can and try to you know, make the best of a bad situation
41:02: But but what I realized pretty quickly was that that wasn't like in that wasn't what they were doing They weren't making some distinction between you know, trying to make the best of a bad situation and just you know,
41:16: I was Like we can't Come together as a church because God is sovereignly preferring it or whatever.
41:24: So let's you know, just Have a Bible study and pray and and sing, you know, what what
41:29: I what I realized was actually happening was that people actually Couldn't tell the difference between a
41:37: Zoom call and the corporate worships gathering in person on the Lord's Day. Does that make sense? Yeah.
41:43: Yeah So basically, you know There are certain situations where the danger is so prevalent that you have you're you're essentially forced to say hey, we can't meet right, but then
41:57: The sure the hope is we can't the whole symbol as a church Right, like it's impossible right now, but the hope is we'll be able to soon, right?
42:10: Right. So we're just going to try to do our like In lieu of meeting like what we're going to do is we're gonna you know as as church leaders
42:20: We're gonna still try to teach our congregation the whole council of God Still try to do everything we can do except meet
42:29: But then what actually happened is what what what we did was we totally redefined what we were actually doing.
42:35: Does that make sense? Instead of just trying to say and make the best of a bad situation and try to fulfill as many
42:42: Responsibilities as we can knowing that God sovereignly preventing us from meeting. What we did was just redefine what meeting was and And in in in except this like Basically oxymoron online church as if it was actually a thing right if that makes sense, right?
42:58: Yeah, so, you know, we're talking about. Hey the hope should be The hope should be that, you know, we get to meet again soon and maybe for some people that That maybe are even listening to this.
43:12: That might be kind of a strange thought to have because Because the
43:18: Sunday gathering is just so low on the priority list for so many people
43:23: Christian and not So what exactly? What? Going back to the commands that God gives us for gathering together to worship him
43:34: Why exactly is God giving those commands? Obviously, we obviously we need to say hey
43:41: One of the main reasons why we meet is because God's told us to meet we want to obey him
43:46: But then why is he why is he giving those commands in the first place? What's the benefit?
43:51: What like is there benefit? Is he is he trying to you know? Is he trying to you know, just get us to worship him and that's it or is there other stuff?
44:03: You know, is there blessing that comes from that? Is there like what what's the what's the point of those commands?
44:10: Beyond just like hey, we're supposed to we're supposed to do what he says Sure. Well, I mean, you know, we should we're supposed to do what he said is
44:20: I mean Enough, right? Should just be like, all right, let's move on to the next question.
44:30: No. No, I know I know I understand I mean but that that doesn't go without saying because I think there are many people who approach that Bible that way if they don't understand why
44:38: A certain thing can happen or doesn't make sense to them then like they have a posture that essentially says well I'll wait till I understand why it's there before I obey and I would say well
44:48: You know if you don't if you don't have an answer to the question that you just asked okay, like Yeah, I think you should try to get an answer to that question
44:57: But don't wait to obey until you get an answer to it because God's always right and he knows what he's doing He's smarter than you right?
45:04: So there's that but but no I mean, I think the idea of meeting together is Why would he command such a thing in general right right now,
45:18: I think The reason why a person probably has to answer a question like that is because their view of the church is so man -centered
45:28: Anyways, right? So like when you have a man -centered view of the church Then I mean how often you've heard people say when they're gonna go to church, you know
45:36: I'm just gonna go there and see if I can get Something out of the sermon, you know, or they are when they don't want to go to church like well
45:43: I think I'm not getting anything out of it. I don't feel like I'm being fed or blah blah blah blah blah, right? like Like I I don't feel like I could
45:52: I could worship there because like the The music that's being played does not fit my particular musical taste and style and everything else
46:01: And so we're trained to think of the corporate worship service as consumers where we go and we consume certain products and the two primary products that you have there is
46:11: The music right which is the product designed Like tailored to you and I mean that's essentially what the secret sensitive churches did they pulled the audience?
46:20: They say hey, well, you know, how do we get a big gathering of people? well people like top 40 music and so let's play top 40 music and that will
46:28: You know, that's how you get to get a crowd and everything else and like well, you know people their attention spans are going down So you need to have shorter services that?
46:37: That are gonna be tailored to them and then you know, like well I have a lot of people who are seeking
46:43: God, you know, even the Bible says no one seeks after me and so therefore like let's have The services primary design for the you know church for the unchurch
46:52: Andy Stanley kind of stuff and everything else And so I think when you have the consumer view of the church in general
46:58: Then you look at it like a product and so functionally they're like to that kind of person
47:03: There actually is no difference between an in -person gathering an online gathering. Mm -hmm, right?
47:09: Mm -hmm In fact the online gathering. I mean if you just ignore the absolute butchering of language that has happened
47:17: Which we're you know accustomed to doing because we live in a relativistic Time in general and we you know, don't realize that words actually have meanings
47:25: But but here's the thing if you if you do that and it's just like well, hey, you know what? Hey, I actually like sitting on my couch in my pajamas
47:33: Better than coming to a church service. I mean, I like sitting on my couch in my pajamas just not on Sunday morning
47:44: Well, I mean just think about this way I mean like you don't have you can go and you don't have to you know Put on clothes
47:53: Sit down and be comfortable put your feet up, you know If you want to get a drink you can get up and you know, listen to a thing and go get a drink
48:00: You know, you're not being put on display, you know, if you have kids that are crazy or whatever and you know misbehaved you don't have to like worry about them making noise or dropping things or whatever else and all that and I mean you
48:14: Just sit there and the privacy of your own home and see if you can get a few things out of it I mean that's assuming that that's actually what happens when you know in practice
48:22: I doubt that many people are actually doing the online thing. They're just like didn't know that it's there in case they want to but It's a good thing to tell people but yeah, so to that kind of person, you know, that's just a long way of saying
48:36: I just I don't like there isn't Any significant difference between the two things
48:42: I get the same product at home. What's the point right? You're right, right So it's the same product same thing so but then you but then so then in that kind of framework you say well
48:52: What is actually the difference right? What is actually the difference and why would God actually command it and Us to come together, you know and inconvenience us and get make us, you know
49:04: Get up off our butts and drive a car and you know It's when we can just get the same product at home and well because it's not fundamentally about you
49:13: Right, it's not about you and about what you want. It's about him like that's what worship is like we gathered together with his people in order to worship him
49:25: As he tells us to and so so like fundamentally this is not about you.
49:31: It's about him It's about it's about God. And so So now now why would he design it that way why would he get the most glory in Having an in -person gathering of a bunch of people.
49:44: Well, because if you look around, you know yourself you look around I look I mean I could there's a hundred answers to this question
49:52: I'll try to give you a few but I mean just look around at the church and You know Paul says not many are mighty not many or noble not many or educated or whatever else and everything else
50:02: It's like God's chosen the weak things of the world to shame the wise I mean when I go to church, you know what like maybe my kids aren't as interested in church as me
50:10: All right as the assembly is I am and like for many people that's like a well, you know
50:15: You got to make them interested in it. You got a Whatever, but it's like no I want you to know that God is the most important reality to universe to me
50:24: And you don't care about this and the reason why you don't care about this because you have hearts of stone that are blind But I care about it
50:30: And so I'm making a testimony me when I come when I come and I gather together with God's people
50:35: All of us together are gathering together and we're we're we're a diverse group of people Mm -hmm, like who are very different who might not be natural friends, right?
50:44: As far as that goes, but there's something that Holds us all together that ties us all together.
50:51: And what that is is that is our Commitment to God, right?
50:56: And so I'm saying to you my kids. I love God more than I love you I'm saying to you world.
51:02: I love God more than I love you God is more important to me than you are and when he commands me to do this
51:09: I'm is this a public testimony to the entire watching world that I get
51:14: God Is more important to you and in a man -centered age? I mean, that's just unthinkable and that's the whole thing that you know, the pandemic plandemic is revealed
51:22: Is it it's just like well, you know, you can't gather together because it's not loving to your neighbors It's like well, you know what?
51:28: I love God more than I love my neighbors and that's why I'm gathering because he's more important than they are and and for you They are more important like they are more important to you than God and that means that that you're not worshiping the actual
51:38: God You're worshiping other people, right? And so I mean that's just one reason why he would come is it's because you know he got a tax collector and his ill it and you know
51:48: Pharisee and You know and lawyer and everything else they put them all together in a pot and and basically said like hey
51:55: Like this is a testimony to a watching world that look what I could do I can reconcile these kind of people to myself, right?
52:02: And so when we come together, we're a picture of that But then not only that we have responsibilities to each other
52:08: We're told to encourage one another to greet one another to welcome one another To have kindly affectionate towards one another to admonish one another exhort one another correct one another
52:16: Greet one another with a holy kiss, you know Like we're like there's like we come together and we're to build each like a body like this is a picture of the church
52:25: We're coming together. We're gonna build each Build each other up with love when the church gathers together on the
52:31: Lord's Day What we're doing is we're a picture of what's going to happen on the last day I mean when like the angels like every day day and night they're standing for the presence of the
52:40: Lord they're saying holy holy holy is Lord God Almighty, right and Like they're there before his presence day and night when we come together as a church
52:48: We are entering into his presence and we're a picture by faith. We trust by faith that he is here
52:54: He is with us. We trust that by faith in one day. We won't have to trust it by faith We're gonna have we're gonna trust it by sight, right?
53:02: Right, like we're gonna see with our eyes and so like every day This is a gathering that anticipates like an eschatological gathering in the future.
53:09: And so I just just so many things you could say I mean about Why he would
53:15: Do that, but those are a few Yeah, yeah, you know obviously
53:23: It's a huge but you know for me for a long time I didn't really take church seriously Until honestly,
53:30: I mean really just you know, maybe I don't know five or six years ago Maybe maybe a little longer than that.
53:36: I can't exactly remember but then it's really remarkable to see kind of the difference in my life now,
53:42: I think a part of that is just due to the fact that you know, I think generally if you're not taking going to church on sunday, seriously, it can be a
53:53: Generally a safe bet to assume that you're probably not really taking much of anything seriously You know in the christian faith at all or when it comes to worshiping god or obeying god
54:04: You're probably not really taking much of anything seriously, but then it is remarkable to see just how
54:10: Um how much truly valuing coming together on sunday
54:17: Can really do to You know help you grow spiritually in an exponential kind of way
54:26: Well, yeah, I mean I think for me just in terms of my own personal testimony I I grew up in a christian home and then when
54:32: I you know Went to college it's like all right This thing's my own now and you know, I didn't darken the doors of church for years
54:37: I went to churches to basically see like where the cute girls were and if I could find any so it's just like well forget this right and so that showed what
54:45: I was after but I mean like the thing is like when I There was a point in my life where it's like there has to be like a transition like I Say i'm a christ follower.
54:54: I need to obey him right and I think at this point in my life is where I Really became a christian.
55:00: I surrendered to his lordship. But the first thing that I thought was Like the very first thing that came to my mind was okay.
55:07: I have to obey god Like not not in order to earn my salvation, but out of gratitude and obedience for him saving me
55:13: I have to like there's no such thing. It's just this Disobedient christian. It's like I don't know anything.
55:18: The bible says I don't know anything the bible says, but I know it says to go to church
55:24: Don't forsake the assembling of the saints. I knew he was 25. I have to go to church I can't forsake the assemblage saints.
55:30: It's like i'm looking around. It's like I don't know what a good church is So it's like well I'm, just going to go to a bad church until I can figure out what a good church is
55:36: Because I have to obey god and like he's just going to have show me what a good church is And so I and I start reading the bible to figure out what a good church is but like the first Step of obedience for me was
55:46: I gotta go to church, right? And like that step of obedience has pushed me in so many ways. It's made me other centered.
55:52: It's made me others focus it Makes me aware of the real problems that like how are you going to bear someone's burden and so fulfill the law of christ?
56:00: If you don't like you're not a part of their life How are you going to encourage one another as you see the day drawing near if if you're not?
56:07: Have some sort of regular mechanism to be around them and ask them, you know How are you doing? And then they say, you know, i'm fine.
56:13: And then you say really, you know Oh, you weren't supposed to you weren't supposed to ask another question you're supposed to say oh good.
56:23: All right. See you later Yeah, well, so how are you going to ask those intrusive questions if you you know You don't have a good occasion an opportunity to do so But I mean the whole point though is just to say hey, we're singing to one another
56:33: Like and we're encouraging one another uh, and like like there's This body that's like being equipped by church leaders to build itself up together and love and this is like god's blessing to us that we get to Be to have a family that's supposed to be more important than our our earthly family to us and like And I mean
56:56: I can't tell you how encouraging it is just to you know To see the testimony of lives of your friends like in your faith family who were gathered together on the lord's day committed to the faith
57:08: Now who you know? Have plenty of other things that are important to do but this day we set aside to to be devoted to god
57:16: And that I mean that's a testimony. It's an encouragement this opportunity to be equipped and everything else But yeah,
57:21: I mean I think just taking that one step and saying hey i'm gonna run with it you know for me like that was
57:29: You know, the first step of my christian life is just to say every every time doors open i'm gonna be there right and you know unless i'm sick or You know, maybe a vacation
57:42: I take once every two years or something But I mean i'm gonna be there, you know, I can't and that's been a tremendous source of blessing and encouragement and growth for me but anyways, you you mentioned, uh, you know being sick or or Or going on vacation, you know once every you know
58:03: Two two years or whatever. So You're trying to stir the wrong pot um so You know, obviously there's plenty of people who are
58:15: Who I think you know faithfully attend church on a regular basis, but then there are um, you know
58:23: There are times where they can't they can't be there on sunday for whatever reason and it's not just like hey
58:29: My son had travel ball so we couldn't make it or you know, I was fishing or or hey, you know sunday's nfl day
58:37: What it's not an it's not a person like that it's a person who regular who regularly attends who genuinely values uh the the sunday gathering, but then you know, they get sick one week or whatever so so When when they have to miss they say to themselves, you know what i'm just gonna
58:55: I can't be there in person But i'm gonna watch maybe maybe my church offers a live stream.
59:01: I'm gonna watch that live stream um, you know Is that kind of does that kind of fall into the same category that we're talking about when we're talking about online church or?
59:12: Is you know biblically do you think that there's a distinction? um between the two those two different scenarios
59:22: I mean, I uh I don't think You know, I think churches that do offer live stream and things like that have to be very vigilant that they are
59:33: Clarifying what it is that they're doing in a way that is clear and um, and so um like The acceptability of that is is not dependent upon like the attitude of the person doing it
59:52: Or the motive of the person doing it or anything else. I think we just have to be very clear that if you watch a either a live showing of a church gathering
01:00:04: That you are not a part of right Or if you're watching a like a replay later of a gathering that you're not a part of we just have to be very clear
01:00:14: That you missed that gathering Okay, right You now is it better?
01:00:20: Is it better if you're sick? Like, you know if you have people who are sick and like would it be better for them to I catch a replay of the service.
01:00:34: Yes Did were they there? No, not in any metaphysical way or not in any literal way or not in any like uh analogical way they're not there right that we don't need to take words and like, um pervert them beyond Do violence to their very meaning they're not there you're not a part of this gathering
01:00:57: But is it like a like it would it be a good thing to say hey, I don't want to Get behind in the teaching right?
01:01:06: So paul says, you know for three years I labored to present to you the whole counsel of god and so if you miss part of that like shepherding that was
01:01:14: Like your pastor is you're supposed to obey your leader submit to them for the keeping watch over yourselves As those who are going to give an account and you're supposed to submit to yourself to your pastor's teaching
01:01:24: You might want to know what it actually is and if there's some situation that came up like Let's say legitimately like you're saying a legitimate reason why you had to miss part of that instruction.
01:01:35: It seems to me you might want to Catch up on it, right? And so there's been times i've been sick even as a pastor
01:01:44: In a team of churches with teams of pastors and yeah, I listened to the message afterwards But I don't think
01:01:49: I went there to church and i'm not pretending I did, you know, so I'm not pretending I was there in the ip address or something like that I wasn't you know,
01:01:58: I was not there. I literally wasn't there, you know but I still like I made the best of a bad situation and Like Still wanted to keep up with what what was going on So that if that makes sense, yeah, is that what you're asking?
01:02:15: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that that answers it pretty soundly overall um so I guess the the last question will will end with is, you know, how should we
01:02:29: Uh, like like we said all throughout this episode. There's plenty. This is really kind of Given rise in an extremely concerning Way at an alarming rate
01:02:41: Uh online church and the acceptability of it even to the point where you said earlier
01:02:48: You know all the all the people that you were in school with were saying hey, you you know what the line is um once they start violating uh
01:02:59: Our ability to share the gospel our ability to meet together and worship the lord that that's where we say
01:03:06: You know, here's our line and you can't you can't go past this um with without us putting up a fight, but then
01:03:14: Uh 2020 comes around and and really it seems like a lot of those people are nowhere to be found now
01:03:22: Right when the going gets tough, so it seems like it's grown in popularity online church to such a lot an alarming
01:03:30: Degree, so in light of that, how should we? view these churches that are that are um either accepting of You know people who?
01:03:44: Who are watching only on the live stream and and never actually trying to come to the end person gathering?
01:03:50: Or people that are actively churches that are actively encouraging um
01:03:56: Online, you know quote unquote membership Well, yeah, I mean
01:04:01: I think to tie it to the overall um To tie that answer to the overall, uh, you know question that you know is online church uh, the ecclesiastical equivalent of um
01:04:16: Transgender male. I mean, I think what? like the the issue is if you just like we're living in a relativistic society right now that Basically, you know is at every single conceivable level trying to do violence to the plain meaning of words
01:04:32: Okay And so like the idea of online church, that's an oxymoron, you know, that's an inherent contradiction.
01:04:39: It's not a thing, right? it's just like that's like you're um Um, like basically it's oxymoron like same difference or something like that.
01:04:48: I mean you're a word that has an inherent contradiction and in In in the very meaning just like transgender male is inherent contradiction
01:04:58: And I mean you can take a man and you can put him You know give him like breast surgery and you know put him on that dress or whatever
01:05:06: And put on some lipstick to him and he's still going to look like an ugly man Like he's gonna I mean he's not going to look like a woman no matter what you think he's not
01:05:15: You know, it's not going to work and and so like the the issue is like what makes a man a man is not
01:05:22: Like just putting some plastic in his chest right Like that's not what makes a man a man, but what makes a church a church
01:05:32: Is that it is an assembly that's what it makes a church a church and so you can you know, you can
01:05:39: You can call it an assembly all you want. You can say. Hey, i'm glad you're here with us or whatever else
01:05:44: It's not an assembly by any meaning of the word assembly and that's what makes a church church.
01:05:49: And so that being said though then like your question then is like well, what do we make of the like the fact that they're
01:05:56: Churches who are doing this and I do think that 2020 2021 have been revealing for the body of christ the bible says that They went out from us because they are not of us, but they left that it might become plain
01:06:09: That they are not of us like the whole 10 Hebrews 10 25 is not neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some
01:06:17: But encouraging one another all the more as you see the day drawing near that that's in the context of a warning passage so,
01:06:25: I mean that's like in the context of Like if you want to know I could just read through the context of hebrews 10, right?
01:06:33: And one of the things you're going to see is that as you read through hebrews 10, right
01:06:40: That like you're in the middle of a warning passage that is basically telling us let us hold fast, you know in verse 23
01:06:46: Let's hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering for he who is promised is faithful and let us consider how
01:06:52: To stir up one another to love and good works not neglecting to meet together as the habit of some But then what is the next verse hebrews 10 26 for if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of truth
01:07:02: There no longer remains a sacrifice or sin But a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries
01:07:09: The adversaries anyone who has set aside the law of moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses How much worse punishment do you think will be?
01:07:16: Deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the son of god profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified And outraged the spirit of grace.
01:07:22: Here's the thing like I mean like these are not trivial issues as far as that goes now, I mean just um
01:07:31: What what I think um, let me just uh, take a step back for a second and say hey look, you know if if Like if you're in the middle of a black plague
01:07:42: Where half of europe is going to die? And there's bodies literally piling up in the streets And like you can identify who they are and you know people who are dead because like half your family's dead
01:07:53: Right in the ditch on the side of the road and there's nowhere to put them like look like I think everyone would say well
01:08:02: You that's the situation or you're being chased by the romans or everything else like You flee to the mountains, right?
01:08:09: and so like you're given permission by god in the cases of like extreme providence to Temporarily Not meet
01:08:20: In order to keep from dying. Okay Yeah All right temporarily now, but here's the thing like here's the thing, right?
01:08:28: so I I don't you know, just relate to your question, I don't fault churches who basically just Were sold a bill of goods and were you know told millions and millions of people were going to die and they thought hey like This is weird the nba canceled the season whatever else like this is strange, right?
01:08:47: I don't know what's going on Like let's wait and see temporarily, right? And let's make the best of a bad situation let's stream
01:08:57: You know singing and In a sermon, you know and you know
01:09:06: Whatever I I don't fault particularly those kind of people but I mean if at a certain point
01:09:11: When it becomes absolutely clear and if it's not absolutely clear right now, I don't know what it will be That like this is not what you said.
01:09:20: It was right And we're not in that situation and we're fleeing but no one really seems to be pursuing and we're in a different kind of situation like, you know at a certain point like somewhere along the path between you know um then and now you know almost
01:09:39: You know for as long as it's been going on right at some point Along the line preferably towards the front end of things like I And I don't know when the exact point is and i'm not going to pretend like i'm the definitive answer on that at some point though it should be clear to anyone with half a brain that um
01:10:00: That you know, you know if you can go to a blm rally and you can't go to church That tells me to some level of how serious you're taking
01:10:09: This thing right, right If you can go to walmart, you can go to a liquor store You can't go to church that tells me something about the makeup and constitution of your faith
01:10:17: And and I think like for many people this like this has been a defining moment to help us to see like who
01:10:24: Really is committed to god and who isn't right right as far as that goes and which churches out there are really
01:10:32: Going to obey god even when it costs them something and what church is out there which are just basically, you know um businesses that are you know more pragmatic in their orientation and so I don't know if that's
01:10:46: Direct enough, but yeah. Yeah. No, no, that's good Uh, well that that's all the questions
01:10:52: I have on the topic Uh, is there anything else that you wanted to say that that maybe we didn't cover?
01:10:58: um throughout the episode I think we probably um We could probably go on for hours and hours and hours, but at some point you just say all right enough is enough
01:11:08: Yeah, we definitely could keep going on for hours and we we have before in conversation just the two of us
01:11:16: Um, well, okay. Well, this has been the uh, the first episode of bible bash
01:11:22: We really do hope that you've been encouraged that you've been blessed through our discussion