Papal Resignation

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. Whatever time it is wherever you are most of us woke up to the news this morning of an event that has not happened in almost 600 years and that is the resignation of the current bishop of Rome and I I was not overly surprised by that to be honest with you

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Ratzinger has said in the past that he believes the Pope can resign and It just strikes me as being consistent

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With his understanding of things that once you get to the point at 85 years of age where you just can't do this anymore

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Then you stop doing it But that hasn't happened. I've always thought that the way the

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Mormons do it is just silly I've always thought I just I don't think this is how Joseph Smith intended it to be if he'd even thought that far down the road,

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I don't know that I could give him that much credit, but The idea of you know being led by a doddering old man

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Which is what you absolutely require is going to happen 95 % of time because that's what happens to us

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When you when you have someone in place until the end of life, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense and so, you know, there's a lot of speculation and there's you know

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Does he have a terrible disease that's he may not even make it to the 28th of February and that's a possibility.

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I suppose Other people are speculating that some terrible scandals going on. I was like, yeah, you don't know anything about that The fact matter is he's resigned and as I read the statement here

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What struck me I mean we're talking about an unbiblical Office here a position that unfortunately in our world because you know again, it's a situation of well

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The enemy of my enemy is my friend and so You know those Roman Catholics, you know, they say good things about abortion and standing against homosexuality and they're fighting the

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HHS mandate and you know that all the warm fuzzy Ecumenical feelings that people get going.

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It's pretty easy. Just I go now Okay, so the so the Pope guy wears a funny hat and that I don't like people bound down and kissing your ring but it's really not that big of a deal is it and Yet as I was listening to Catholic radio on the way in there talking about our

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Papa the Holy Father the Vicar of Christ and all the rest of stuff and even in reading his statement about the

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Convoking of the the conclave to elect his successor and all the rest of stuff, though.

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I wondered what's he gonna do? I mean, what do you do when you're the retired Pope, you know?

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That's not something in that no one's ever had to think about for like again six centuries, but Even in his statement

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He says and now let us entrust the Holy Church the care of our Supreme Pastor our Lord Jesus Christ and implore his

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Holy Mother Mary so that she may assist the cardinal fathers their maternal with her maternal solicitude and electing a new supreme pundit

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That's just that you know, this is not worry about the Holy Spirit here, you know He can't quite pull it off on his own. We need we need

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Mary to get involved in selecting the next leader of the church Of course Mary on earth wasn't involved in that but anyways

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You know You got to remember we're dealing with a system here that has been Fundamentally compromised that it's at its core and that comes out very clearly in In this but all this is gonna do is it's gonna mean we're gonna hear the you know

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The I don't think it's gonna be a bat as bad as it was in 2005 with John Paul II and you know the dying, you know took a couple days type thing and and every

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Catholic apologist on the planet got his 10 minutes of fame on Fox News, you know

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People who just you know have don't have a serious bone in their body, you know selling selling pilgrimages to Jerusalem But they're on Fox News doing their thing and it's just like I don't think it's be quite as bad this time because you don't

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You know, he's only been Pope since 2005 Not nearly as quote -unquote beloved as John Paul II.

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He's not dead So you don't have all the mourning and the immediate moves for canonization and all that kind of stuff going on But I'm sure we'll still see some of these guys come coming on and talking about the constant faith of the church in 2 ,000 years and Union and the fact the matter is

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That's just just anyone who knows history goes really seriously, honestly

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But So that is what is going on with that. I don't have much to comment on beyond that, you know

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I heard the news just like everybody else. It's an unbiblical office. It's uh, you know But we've debated this subject over and over and over and over again

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And I I don't think there's anything to be gained by some of the folks that are running around today, you know doing their

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John Knox impersonations It's great that the Antichrist has been struck down and yeah, that doesn't really accomplish much either but it would be nice if it was a opportunity to point out

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To folks the unbiblical nature of the papacy if most folks had ever taken any time to actually think about it

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I was saying well, I was there the Bible has a Pope Well, that's true.

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But what what you know, how about a positive argument? That's That Peter You know the successors of Peter and all the rest of that stuff.

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But anyways, that's a a whole other issue now what I needed to get to today and what

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I'm going to get to today is to try to finish off the 2011

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Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society article by NT Wright. I did see an interesting email exchange

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Between NT Wright and someone who listened to our dialogue and a lot of folks focused in properly on the fact that You know the big question is and it remains the big question when you stand before God what is going to be your your final plea?

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What is that that real basis that? And and I understand That NT Wright is trying to stay within the categories that he himself has established by his study and all the rest that stuff but look,

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I Question the validity of a theological formulation that causes you to stutter and stammer at the graveside or at the bedside

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You know, I mean I'm not saying that that's the best place to have in -depth theological conversation

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But when it comes down to you know, the pastoral work What good is theology if it doesn't allow you to actually do that is the question so I want to get back to this but Jeff Downs forwarded me a link and I don't thank

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Jeff often enough for the fact He's a tremendous apologetic resource remains that way a good guy.

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He's one of our blog guys There's a lot of good blog guys. We've got up there they don't get to write as much as I wish that they could but We've got we've got some fine folks up there and Jeff sent me a link to an article that Discusses on the basis of certain of NT Wright's books his views on Christology and says no one ever talks about NT Wright's view as Christology well,

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I started looking at it. I was troubled and the funny thing was we did actually video the my side obviously of the

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Dialogue with NT Wright on Unbelievable, and I'm pretty certain that Justin gave us permission.

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I think we could even post that sound file on our website if we wanted to But be that as it may

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From the camera angle behind me. There would be something that's normally not there. It's still there I haven't moved it but I put a music stand behind because I was just running out of places around me to put books and stuff and On the

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The music stand behind me is NT Wright's Commentary in the interpreters

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Bible series on the book of Romans, and so I'm reading some of these quotes

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That have been put together in this in this article and If I interpret them within my tradition they sound really bad

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But I'm starting to realize you've you've you've really got to try to listen to NT Wright in his context to really know what he's saying

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And so I I think okay let's let's

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Turn around and let's look at what he says in his commentary on Romans on If you're looking at Romans, and you want to look at what someone says on the deity of Christ in the book of Romans Where are you gonna go?

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Well There's one primary text in In the book of Romans there are a couple others where the name

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Yahweh for example in Romans 10, but there's one primary

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Christological title passage in in Romans and that's

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Romans 9 5 and So I spin around and I turn to Romans 9 5 and I read

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Bishop Wright's comments on Romans 9 5 and What I discover is he believes that it is a

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Christological passage that is specifically teaching the deity of Christ Okay so With with rather strong arguments far more than you'd expect from a liberal so once again

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Years ago, and you all have heard well Maybe haven't but years ago, and and I have mentioned this to people when they they ask questions.

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You know About N .T. Wright, and I have said more than once I've said

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N .T. Wright giveth and N .T. Wright taketh away In other words you know

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I and the example that I used is His debate with Marcus Borg, I'm not sure

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I don't remember if John Dominic Crossan was involved, and I don't think he was he might event I don't remember But I again ironically from eight years ago

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I remember exactly where I was on the Sun Valley Parkway I could I could get within one mile one way or the other because it's a rather nondescript area out there some but I could get you within one mile one way or the other of where I was in the

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Sun Valley Parkway when N .T. Wright Said something I'm like wow

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I'm gonna have to remember that because it's really helpful to us And what it was is he was talking about we don't know what the order of the Gospels were we theorize about Matthew Mark and and Luke and the relationship between them and stuff like that, but we don't know it's just all a bunch of theories

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And I'm like yeah, that's exactly right and then like Five minutes later.

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He's arguing Lazarus didn't die Lazarus really didn't die because that messes up his idea of what resurrection is

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Lazarus didn't really die and there's Marcus Borg going, but Lord he stinketh You know so so you know you got that you got the ultra liberal

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Marcus Borg Going but Lord he sinketh, and you know so within five minutes N .T. Wright giveth, N .T.

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Wright taketh away it's just that's just the way it is and part of it is is because we

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I And a lot of other people tend to interpret every statement he makes within our paradigm rather than within his and I'm very sensitive to that because you know what?

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What's the majority argument against me? When it comes to reformed theology Taking what

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I've said and not interpreting with the context of what I've said But within the context of an Arminian worldview, and it makes it sound really silly

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So if I'm gonna be consistent Then I've got to bend over backwards and try to be fair and listen to the man in his own context

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And that's what I'm trying to do so here's what I'm gonna do Um Only spent three days on this and the response even to just going through this

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Jets article has been very interesting There's been a lot of people clearly a lot of people very clearly

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Who have been? Troubled by what N .T. Wright has said Attracted by some things he says repulsed by other things.

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He says I think that's pretty much all of our experience and Have just sort of put them off to the side and said man.

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I wish somebody Would simplify this stuff and explain this stuff. Well.

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I'm not looking at stopping my studies of anything else, but but I would be willing to work into my continued reading of Sahih Muslim and Malik's Muwatta and all that other stuff that I spend hours listening to on the bike and Then bring them into dividing lines,

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I would be willing to work into that The necessary N .T.

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Wright books That would hopefully allow me to at least interact With well in fact one of the things that was said let me see if I've still got it here on owns the phone

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Where did I have that at oh yeah? One of the N .T.

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Wright when he responded this fellow Said may I ask you one quick question. Do you base your

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Christian belief on scripture or on tradition boy? You know what one of the things that freaks people out is being on is for us to be on the receiving end of that challenge

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Because we are so used to giving it to somebody else. Let's face it What freaks us out is it freaks us out that someone's doing that to us?

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No question about it and one practical question listen to this is your car driven by fuel or by your foot on the pedal?

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I Think I know what he means by that That's that's he's that's his

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The final statement of justification is based upon the life lived That's what he's trying to explain there.

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I can guarantee you he's trying to explain that there We'll get more to that in the article here and one specific question relating to your heaven question.

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Have you read surprised by hope well again? Here I am I Don't know how many times we had a we had a

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Sort of Muslim to be a Mormon debate in channel on what was that Saturday night

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Saturday night? it wasn't really a debate it was just a discussion with the Mormon that came in and it was interesting, but One of the things that was somewhat frustrating is right at the beginning.

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I said um Tell you what Have you read letters to a

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Mormon elder or is it more of my brother? I've written two books on Mormonism spent a lot of time doing that a lot of research a lot you know and There have been a lot of Mormons have said you obviously spent a lot of time research, etc.

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Etc and a guy goes no All right, so there's an automatic Disadvantage that he has an automatic disadvantage for me because I'm gonna have to be repeating stuff that if he had read my books

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I wouldn't have to be repeating okay well same thing in this situation

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I can't talk about NT right if I haven't read NT right when NT right has written books on the subjects that we're talking about So surprised by hope is a book on resurrection heaven if I want to know what he thinks about How you get to heaven and what the nature of the resurrection is and what the basis you're standing for God is and he's written

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A book on it, then what do I need to do? I need to read the book basically and I have ways of doing that That allows me to proverbially kill two birds with one stone so what

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I have done is If you go to the ministry resource list now Unfortunately, what

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I didn't do was put a link to the ministry resource list on the blog All you got to do is search for ministry resource list on the blog and it will come up and that links all the same

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I'll try to do it after after the program But if you'll go to the ministry resource list, it's just an

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Amazon gift list is what it is But we started this I don't know how many years ago. It has been a huge blessing to me specifically

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But to the ministry as a whole In providing me with resources If you go to the ministry resource list,

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I have put a ton of NT Wright books on it and You'll notice that many of them.

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There's two listings One is the hardcopy one's the Kindle the Kindle is what

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I listen to and record But it is a whole lot easier to reference the actual paper edition because sometimes it has page numbers

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Sometimes it doesn't sometimes page numbers don't actually match and blah blah blah. So if you're gonna reference something

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It's good to have you know that there So it's real simple if y 'all want me to do this if y 'all want me to to roll this in I mean, it's spring time.

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It's getting getting towards spring time I'm looking at some big miles on the bike.

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I might have time to do it To roll roll the NT Wright reading marathon into the end of the end of the mix

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Then it's real simple if those books disappear off the ministry source list that means there's people out there want me to do it and if they don't then that means there ain't and You know

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Give I'll move on. Yeah, so if if the books stay up there and I don't get them

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After about a week or so, then I'll figure. Okie dokie. I mean it is Monday and It's an unusual day to have a dividing line

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So we probably have a diminished audience today because I only announced it what last night or something like that but if the books disappear and I end up with with them and the availability of doing the work, then

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I will I will do it and Otherwise, then we'll just go on from there. So that's what we'll do so look up the ministry is a resource list if that's what you want to do and We'll go from there.

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Yes, sir I was just gonna say the programs that you did in 2004

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I have tags so they're all in the shopping cart and they are tagged with either

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NT right or new perspectivism Oh, and they are They are title and they're titled properly like for instance this one dividing line

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January 11th 2003 new perspectivism and So if people want to go find what you did before, you know 10 years ago or so Yeah, do that easily long time ago.

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The question is would that Back then I was from the only resource

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I had from NC right was what st. Paul really said and There was more than one person.

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I've dialogued with in Fact where Oh Drat, it was somebody in channel.

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Oh is Johnny. Oh, I wish I had that reference Johnny redeemed

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No, not Johnny Johnny redeemed who wrote a paper on NC Wright's perspectives

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Put up a blog article and Unfortunately, it's on my other Mac and I don't have it here

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He posted it in channel. Maybe somebody has it in channel and if it pops up, I'll try to bring it up, but he contrasted

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What NT Wright said in response specifically to Justin Briarley?

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with a statement from what st. Paul really said from 1997 and And He agreed with me that there has been at least

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How we put it If NT Wright would say I haven't changed my views

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He would at least we would hope have to admit that he has changed his emphasis in in certain things because Justin basically

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Paraphrased What st. Paul really said and then he writes said well, I would avoid that false dichotomy There's a false dichotomy is in his own book.

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So there seems to be much more of a friendliness toward What we might consider

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Orthodox or orthodox reformed terminology or some emphases and things like that at least in our conversation than there was

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In 1997 so all all of that said let's get back to this Jets article or we're never going to get it done

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I'm I unfortunately didn't mark exactly where I was and Unfortunately because I've been studying so much stuff.

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It's really hard for me to remember exactly Where we were but I think the important thing is to dive into if you have the

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Jets article, it's page 57 I'm pretty sure I did read this paragraph

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In regards to God's covenant faithfulness, how is he to be faithful to those promises? Answered through the

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Messiah Jesus who has been the one and only faithful Israelite embodying God's covenant faithfulness and that's why by the way, he emphasizes that instead of Rendering the genitive phrase as it's normally rendered in most

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Bible translations faith in Jesus. It's the faithfulness of Jesus In other words, it's it's

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Jesus's Faithfulness That is in view not our faith in Jesus That is in view in a number of key texts in Paul and that you can see this here

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Through the Messiah Jesus who has been the one and only faithful Israelite embodying God's covenant faithfulness and hence evoking

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Through his death as an act of sheer divine grace the answering faith, which is the recognizable badge of renewed covenant people

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So sola fide faith alone in the Messiah is

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The recognizable badge of renewed covenant people the people who turn out to be the people

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God promised Abraham in the first place fulfillment of Genesis 15 Genesis 12 and 15 the people composed equally believing

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Gentiles and believing Jews because if you go back to the promise All the way back is it could not have been limited solely to the

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Jews Your your your siege will be as a sand of the sea and so on so forth

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This is the action the sin -bearing obedience the last Adam to the Israel vocation as in for instance,

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Isaiah 53 Through which God's faithfulness of the covenant generates that forgiveness of sins because of which there can now be a sin forgiven people

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What then does it mean within the law court setting for someone to be righteous simply this the court is found in their favor

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It means that they have been declared to be in the right so again, we're back to law court, but it is the it is the

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Jewish law court and Don't just automatically assume as I certainly did in the past that we're talking about the law court

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That we would immediately think of from Romans chapter 8 They have not been granted now.

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Here's where he differs. They have not been granted or imputed a righteousness

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Which belongs to someone else? the judge's righteousness

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Consists of his trying the case fairly in accordance with law Showing no favoritism punishing the wrongdoer and upholding the widow the orphan the defenseless so in in this law court

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The judge is righteous when he judges righteously Because of what

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Jesus has done. There is not a transfer of Righteousness to the individual

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When the court finds in favor of one of the two parties at law There is no sense in which their right righteous status carries any of these judge specific connotations

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Now again, if we limit ourselves solely to that Hebrew concept, okay but we can't limit ourselves to that Hebrew concept because the

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Bible goes beyond it and It's Paul himself who raises the issue of God as justifier and as Jesus as he who has died yea rather who was raised to life you now have a

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Well a parakletos in this in a in a judicial sense Not the

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Holy Spirit in this case, but you actually have a an intercessor and The issue is and here's where I think on one hand rights arguments help us to avoid

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Here's let me use this illustration. Let me see if this helps you. I Think sometimes we and I'm referring to those of us who hold to a historic reformed perspective.

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I think sometimes we get Faded Faded we fade in our our passionate holding to the fullness of God's truth

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Sometimes You You see this in the sense that we become imbalanced.

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We become we emphasize just one one aspect of things Rather than seeing the the harmony of all of God's truth

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For example, if you're constantly having to deal with Roman Catholics old -style Roman Catholics then you're gonna have a massive wall between justification and sanctification

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Because they conflate the two now you'll always say well, of course, they're connected because anyone who's justified will be saying like y 'all's make that but But because you sometimes are pulling one direction you tend to lose some balance and and maybe not emphasize the harmony of things so much one of the illustrations is we have a we have a book room at the back at at Phoenix reformed and We buy books.

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We don't make any money off We always joke about that we always spend more on the book room

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We actually actually, you know get back but we buy books for folks because we you know, we give them away to people and things like that and people forget to pay and it's just works that way and But there are no window coverings on the windows in the book room

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Rich is laughing because he's seen this now the the the Sun Oh Actually does get to some books over one side, but there but for some of the books the

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Sun never actually hits them directly But since there's no window coverings and this air is Arizona.

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It's still so bright That if the book sits there long enough its cover will begin to fade the colors will begin

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That's the Arizona Sun man. Let me tell you something Yeah especially if they're if they're you know if One part of its covered by another book and then you move it you can you can see that there has been fading Over time and I think if there's if there's a positive thing that I can bring from my reading of NT, right is that Thinking through the challenges he makes forces me to Revivify the colors of all of the gospel for example

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When we think of the law court in Romans 8 and we when we think of imputation of righteousness a beautiful truth that I believe in Firmly, and I don't think

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NT right does though. He says he gets to the same Conclusion, but by a different path well, that's the big issue.

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That's the big question Everybody goes like you can say that but explain how it works for crying out loud, okay?

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He says he gets there all right imputation beautiful truth but taken by itself

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Very difficult to defend If you take it by itself What is the absolutely necessary element of?

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Soteriology clear biblical teaching that Absolutely must be there to make any sense out of imputation at all union with Christ Union with Christ how can you imagine?

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this this righteous status Before God this positive righteousness the righteousness due to the death of Christ In other words all the aspects of the full righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us.

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Can you imagine that? Taken separately from our union with him

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It doesn't make any sense. Why do we have the right to because we're united with him?

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We have what he has We have the life that he has it is that union with him that that is the necessary do

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I dare use the term matrix and that obviously had a different theological meaning before a certain movie came out, but it is the necessary context and surrounding matrix

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That holds us all together otherwise. You've got just these disconnected concepts that just go floating around out there, and they don't have a

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Unified goal and direction obviously I think The the glorification the triune

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God is the fundamental matrix of all of this. This is what God has done to glorify himself That's why he chose to create.

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That's why he chose to have the fall and sin and redemption all of that stuff, but the point is when you

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Read a an italicized phrase like when the court finds in favor of one of the two parties at law There is no sense in which their righteous status carries any of these judge specific connotations

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I go beyond this and I think Paul went beyond this When he asks in Romans 8 who shall bring a charge against God's elect who are that elect?

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That's that's something else that I would love to have time to ask NT right about is How do you understand the elect and how do you understand these issues and and Paul's obviously talking about these things?

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And so how do you understand it? What's the context you places in? When Paul is talking about who is the one who condemns

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God is the one who justifies? Christ Jesus the one who died Yay, rather rose again.

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We're united with him So we have gone through we have we are considered to have died and have been raised to new life in union with Jesus Christ Well, what's the nature of that new life in Jesus Christ if it does not include the perfect righteousness?

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And where does that perfect righteousness come from if we have new life? before the father if We have a positive standing as if we have fulfilled all of the lot where'd it come from?

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It comes from our substitute or to use the language he used up here up above here Let me use

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NT Wright's own own language. It came from the one and only faithful Israelite Embodying God's covenant faithfulness.

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Well if he embodied it, dr And I am united with him Then how can the righteousness that is now mine be anything other than that which he wrought in his perfect life?

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see so that's why I Listen to this and and I go

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I hear what you're saying. I just don't think you're going far enough. I Don't think you're going far enough.

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I Think you're missing the fact that and it's very it was very clear to me in our conversation He sort of he does have the idea that pretty much everyone who disagrees with him

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You know, we just haven't listened closely enough and you're just doing your tradition thing and I I don't don't think that's case

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He goes on to say The righteousness which they have is their right standing in the law court now that the verdict has been announced in The same way when

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God is the God who made the covenant with Abraham declares that someone is a member of that covenant the covenant Faithfulness because of which

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God sends his own son to take upon him the sins of Israel and the world is not at all the Same thing as the covenant membership, which is demarcated by faith

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The righteousness which God has in this case is simply not the same thing as the righteousness covenant membership of those who have faith

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So he's making a distinction between God's covenant faithfulness and bringing about salvation and The announcement that someone is in the covenant and he says we are conflating those things

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Alright to think otherwise to insist that one needs righteousness in the sense of and I had this marked

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And I don't remember now if this actually came up. I Don't remember if I mentioned I haven't actually listened to it again

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Well, I started listening to it just to see how the edits turned out But I didn't haven't taken the time to relisten to the whole conversation But I had this marked as one of the things

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I wanted to bring up To think otherwise to insist that one needs righteousness in the sense of moral character or repute that's in quotes or Whatever comma let's say there's that bothers me or whatever.

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Our our concept is fairly straightforward nothing unclean enters into heaven be perfect even your father heaven is perfect and It's the the imputation of the righteousness of Christ is not moral character or repute

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It is his perfect standing which he himself Exemplified positively in his life and then of course provided in the sense of forgiveness in his death

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It is not only the forgiveness of the positive commission of sins, but also the forgiveness of the sins of the world It is also the forgiveness of the not having accomplished and done

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The positive commands of God that we do not do every single day love the Lord your God with our heart soul mind strength

35:30

We don't do that. We don't do that. So I'm concerned that Well, I'll be perfectly honest with you.

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I I believe that NT Wright has been so often on the barbed end of the

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Riposte that And this is this is human nature. Sometimes you stop listening to what the other side is actually saying

35:59

And I've seen a number of places. Here's one of them where it just seems that there is for someone who is

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So scrupulous in crossing t's and docking eyes um

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This is a place where he doesn't do that Uh another area that he has been accused of this many many many times and lots of examples given

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Is not really accurately representing what the reformers taught That's really not his area um

36:31

Monty's just mentioned in channel. Yeah, I know where the paper is, but he uh, if you can find his uh, his

36:37

Blog, he put up a blog article yesterday Last evening as I recall where he was contrasting uh

36:43

The 1997 statement and something else so if you can find his blog then that i'd be able to read that one little thing but I just don't have it in front of me because he

36:51

Gave me the link in channel, and I don't I don't have the logs in front of me So I go back to this statement to think otherwise to insist that one needs righteousness in the sense of moral character repute or whatever

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In order to stand unashamed before god and that lacking anyone's own Uh one must find some from somewhere or someone else

37:12

Shows that one is still thinking in medieval categories of justitia Rather than in biblical categories of law court and covenant

37:22

Now justitia, of course is latin term for righteousness And what he's saying is

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The reformers were very concerned about the medieval Discussions of what it means to be right before god and they were

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No question about that The question is Were those conversations?

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Unknown and irrelevant to the apostle paul and the early jews And I would say no they were not

37:53

Now the some of the medieval categories that the canonists had worked out and things like that surely but It is a a pretty wild accusation to say to uh the reformers that they

38:11

Were just asking the wrong questions that everybody had been wrong all the way back to augustine on this issue um

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Were there people who did not? in fact recognize the role of jewish

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Identity and things like that in the discussions of paul because all they were thinking about was Justitia.

38:33

Yes, that's true. No one's going to argue about that Uh, has there been a a helpful

38:40

Correction in recognizing that jews were not just were not just Thinking they could pull themselves up by the bootstraps line.

38:49

Like I said last week I never thought that I've always recognized the synergistic element of things and nt wright even even criticized the use of the term synergistic well

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Okay Synergistic does appear in the new testament and it's used positively Second corinthians 6 you are soon ergo.

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You are fellow workers with god So it is a biblical term But obviously that's not how

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I was referring to the term I'm talking about a cooperative effort between man and god bringing about man's salvation and More importantly,

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I think you can establish very clearly That this is what the apostle paul is speaking against in numerous texts

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The concept not of the of people saying I don't need any grace from god at all I can do it all myself.

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I can pull myself up by my bootstraps. No That's never been what i've been concerned about. I I only know a few true pelagians.

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What's that guy on youtube? There's some dude on youtube that's uh preaches open -air preaches on college campuses and he's a full -blown plagiarist and he says so Don't need god's grace.

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You can do it on your own I don't run into too many people like that. Not even the mormons do that I mean as as as horribly putrid bad

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New testament theology as it is even the book of mormon says Is by grace we're saved after all we can do

40:18

So there's there's still the necessity of grace there. Jesse morel. Thank you Um, I see all

40:24

I gotta do is wait 30 seconds then someone in channel will will pop it up Uh, no,

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I did not see the link. Oh, there it is monty came through for me Uh, see if I can get my thing over here bringing, uh, www .bringthebooks

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.org. Oh, it just Scrolled there. There we go. Double click it and brought it up.

40:45

Yes. Okay, uh, february 10th. Yeah, it was yesterday um And uh, yeah, here's here's the section

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See now i've completely lost lost I've been completely discombobulated as to where I was Well, it happens

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That's why everybody loves to listen to my program because they like this there and go well He just he's just chasing the rabbit right down that hole there um

41:08

It says delightfully right took issue with a comment made by briarley. Here is a transcript their exchange from the 2042 mark

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Justin briarley if I can try and try and spell this out and you will have to correct me Can we say that then then that justification that as far as paul was concerned?

41:24

Was about membership more than personal salvation if you like nt, right? That is precisely the either or that we have to avoid

41:33

Justin briarley says okay And he right says because the membership question is the membership in the family of abraham

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And the purpose of abraham's family was to undo the sin of adam

41:45

And then johnny says after hearing right marks on this point I cannot help but think back to his book what st

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Paul really said because right makes the same point in this book that he rejects in the interview He writes on page 119 quote

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In standard christian theological language justification wasn't so much about soteriology as about ecclesiology

42:03

Not so much about salvation as about the church And he says is it just me or does this comment from right's book sound virtually identical to the restatement made by briarley that right rejected um, yeah, that's the point

42:16

I really sense in especially this jets article um a

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Shift in emphasis. How's that a shift in emphasis? And it would be a positive shift in emphasis

42:35

In in that sense, but anyways back to the idea of eustachia It seems to me very clear that the the central core heart issues in regards to eustachia

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Are in paul and will be in every age as long as there are men

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Who contemplate their relationship to god rather than just their relationship to the nation of israel?

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And this is why I tried to bring in it didn't I didn't just didn't have time to To do it, but I tried to bring in what do

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I say to my muslim friends? Because this is you know, if you want to you want to get rid of medieval categories. Okay, let's talk to my muslim friends

43:19

How do they stand before god? How they stand before god any of you have seen me speak on islam, you know that I I almost always not always but I almost always finish with a a video or a picture from the

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The attack on the glasgow airport Where two men drove a jeep cherokee into the into the door and tried to explode it

43:41

It exploded only killed them, but it didn't kill anybody else. Thankfully, but And I I tell them, you know, these these guys were not down and outers.

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They were national health care physicians They were physicians. They're doctors And why do

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I show that because theology matters? There's the system of belief that they embraced gave them a holy god

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God's righteous law and the fact that they're sinners, but has denied to them a mediator

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And what's that all about eustachia? How many muslims in the world know the term eustachia almost none almost none at all

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But it's eustachia that drove that jeep into a door It's the issue of the righteousness of god.

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That is that is the key here That's what's so vital And so what i'm saying is our understanding of what paul's saying transcends

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The original context in which the things he was saying had meaning In other words, the gospel goes beyond just its original setting.

44:46

You've got to understand it there That's why some of these correctives are helpful in in in making sure that we remain balanced

44:53

But you can't just freeze it there and say that's all it's relevant to The gospel is meant to go out to the whole world and it's meant to similar example this is one of the things that uh, you know, if If uh,

45:10

I end up reading these other books one of the things i'm gonna be really really really really looking at um is the issue of his christology

45:22

And Because there's an area where if you want to talk trinity if you want to talk deity of christ

45:31

Then clearly you have the necessity to look at the biblical text and to allow it to speak

45:39

With a transcendent voice Which it almost seems sometimes Tom wright is not allowing it to do when it comes to justification and soteriology as a whole

45:52

Um, and that's that's that's a problem Um, so looking at the missed resource list, uh, we've got we got four of them down Got four of them down.

46:04

So we got let's see one two, three, four, five six seven eight nine ten

46:10

Ten uh Is that what i've got? Yeah, I think i've got uh,

46:15

I think there's 10 more there. Uh, so, uh Yeah, there's a go on the next. Where's the next page?

46:22

Page one of seven. There's not seven pages there. That's ridiculous Uh, no, it's page 101. There's only 10 items left there

46:29

How can there only be 10 items left there? Anyways, i'll check that later But uh, some have been picked up, uh, very very appreciated.

46:35

I saw uh, someone in channel mentioned that um much appreciate All right, i'm not i'm not going to get this done if I do not speed up and in fact at quarter till i'm not going to I have thus by drawing in the covenant anticipate the next point the law court in question is the covenantal one

46:50

In which god's promises to abraham are at stake The right standing of those in whose favor the court has found is at the same time the covenantal status

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They enjoy as members of abraham's true family Which includes among his privileges as I have insisted the assurance of sins forgiven

47:04

And of the promise that those whom god justified them. He also glorified now That's romans 8 sounds to me

47:11

That's the elect there So are we talking new covenant here? And can so can we bring in hebrews in the new covenant and everything new covenant involves including union and righteousness and the the heart and and all the rest of that stuff and Regeneration and and all those things that are part and parcel of our our understanding is that can we do that?

47:33

The law court setting in other words is not just one illustration among others. It is the Theologically apt and appropriate metaphor

47:40

Through which we see what has happened to god's covenant promises Well, if that's the case if it is the overriding just as the exile narrative becomes the overriding narrative in nt rights theology

47:52

If that's the case Can't we allow paul to expand it to its new covenant fulfillment in romans 8

48:00

With the intercessor in union with christ and all the things that go with it It seems to me to flatten out

48:09

To flatten out The fulfillment language in the new testament to emphasize the old testament narratives and paradigms to the point where they don't allow the

48:22

They don't allow the fulfillment to be greater than than the initial category is the promise I've seen that in regards to prophetic stuff in regards to messiah and things like that as well

48:32

Not with right but with others um The covenant was established in the first place in order to set the world, right?

48:40

This is how the language works and it works without equivocation in passage after passage throughout paul that for a biblically faithful christian is what counts we are and Again, we're not used to having this thrown our direction.

48:51

I think it causes us discomfort We are not at liberty to pick and choose in god's word

48:56

We are bound to search it all to study it all to make sure we interpret each Element in the light of the whole and the whole in the light of each element.

49:02

I couldn't have said it better myself What's uh, what's the terminology i've used for that for years tota scriptura and solo scriptura that's

49:13

I I like the way it's said Question is who's doing it? I have written about the relevant passages at length

49:20

Of course in various places a fairly complete list may be found in the bibliography of my work justification god's plan and paul's vision 2009

49:26

I've drawn attention repeatedly for instance to the single letter e in romans 329

49:32

I'm single letter word a That'd be ada In romans 329 which indicates that for paul though not for the current old perspective proponents

49:42

There is a close and unbreakable link between the between justification by faith and the inclusion of gentiles within god's people

49:50

Now I don't think that's fair I do not think that it is fair to say

49:57

That for someone such as myself and and I do not really want the terminology old perspectivist

50:07

For historically reformed interpreters of the text that the idea of justification by faith and the inclusion of gentiles in god's people

50:21

Are two completely separate things. I don't know how many times I even when

50:26

I lecture on islam And again those of you who've watched Those of you who've seen me do this

50:34

No, this is the case I will show a clip

50:40

Uh of people becoming muslims It's from down in sydney Uh, it's khalid yassin leading people and saying the shahada

50:50

And then I ask people you just watched people become muslims What was troubling about that to you?

50:58

What were what were what were things that were similar and different? And one of the things I ask is what the men that were passing out the gifts to people

51:04

What were they wearing they were wearing the same clothes that muhammad would have worn? the beginning of 7th century in arabia

51:11

And I ask people how many of you made your profession of faith in jesus christ in either biblical greek or biblical hebrew

51:19

And no one's ever said they did and yet to make your profession of faith in islam You have to say it in arabic

51:29

Even if you don't know what you're saying and so What I do is

51:35

I say we avoided this In acts 15 the reason christianity

51:42

Doesn't have these elements is because we avoided this in acts 15

51:50

Paul saw in galatians 2 the danger of having

51:57

A jewish christian church and a gentile christian church and you can go back Uh, i'm pretty certain that the lectures

52:05

I gave on uh on galatians 1 Back at d .l.

52:10

culliver's house back in the 1990s somewhere. I think we still

52:16

I think we have that galatians 1 6 through 9 that anathema one I think that's in the bookstore somewhere. I think it was

52:23

And what you're going to hear me long before i'd ever heard of nt. Wright Is talking about the fact that there is a danger

52:33

That the apostle paul sees that peter does not Of that division it's where you have justification

52:42

By faith being the curative To the idea of a divided church so I'm, sorry

52:54

Maybe he has talked with many people Where they're they don't see the link between justification by faith and the inclusion of gentiles in god's people.

53:04

I always have that's why I So often sort of cock my head and go When i'm reading nt.

53:10

Wright's criticisms of quote -unquote old perspectivists because Allegedly, that's me. I'm a geocentrist from his perspective, but um, that's not where I was coming from That's not how i've understood it

53:25

Uh, i've drawn attention to the difference between paul's phrase a righteousness from god to kayasuna ektheyu

53:30

And one nice thing about tom wright and myself We can exchange greek and understand each other.

53:36

He uses the same pronunciation system He doesn't use that stupid modern greek stuff uh, alan kirshner's gotten into using that modern greek silliness rather than the tried and true ways of Erasmian pronunciation and both nt right now use erasmian pronunciation and what oh now wait do

53:56

I hear Tradition. Yes, you do It's the only way you can pronounce it and differentiate words, that's why anyways, uh

54:05

Um We that that did come up, uh during the course of the conversation

54:12

Uh, i've drawn attention to the difference between paul's phrase a righteous from god to kayasuna ektheyu in philippians 3 9

54:18

Referring to the righteous status of the covenant member and the more usual to kayasuna They are the righteous of god himself in romans 1 17 3 21 to 26 10 3

54:25

And i've shown how these precise verbal distinctions are an exact index of exactly what paul wants to say.

54:31

Well We'd have to go through each one of those to discuss Exactly what he's saying about that.

54:39

Uh, but but I hadn't marked what came after this once again It is strange and even amusing To find people whose main claim is they are faithful to scripture is ready to twist and bend

54:50

Paul's actual and specific language to fit the traditional schemes With which they start especially when the precise meaning the words offers an excellent and coherent sense

55:00

Now whatever else you've you you say You've got to understand that from Anti -rights perspective disagree with him if you will be prepared to explain why?

55:14

Disagree with him if you will but from his perspective He is actually defending sola scriptura

55:20

And a biblical a biblicist position He has to because on some of these interpretations his

55:29

Interpretation is a theological novum. And by the way, by the way as we're obviously going to have to continue this in the future

55:37

Um as well as getting back to other issues that we need to address um

55:42

I did want to respond to Something that did come up in the program and that also comes up in his comments on this but when when he

55:54

Basically says look the reformers would have agreed with me That it's okay to be out on a limb with an interpretation

56:06

They would have agreed with me over against you traditionalists But the fact the matter is the reformers

56:14

While they were more than happy to disagree with rome's abuse of scripture Did not believe that they were coming up with an interpretation of scripture that no one else had ever seen

56:26

It is the constant refrain of the reformers to go back to the early church to find individuals

56:34

Who may have been a minority voice, but they were there That agreed with them in their reading of the text of scripture the idea that they would have defended the

56:45

Concept that well, okay. Um, well, for example, there's one place Uh, I believe it might be roman 7 -4 i'd have to look at I had it in my notes, uh on thursday

56:59

Where in the list of unique interpretations and readings from nt wright He actually takes one where he suggests a conjectural emendation a conjectural emendation is a change of the text

57:12

Where you have no Textual evidence to substantiate so you're going to change the greek text

57:19

And say it actually read this but there are no manuscripts to support that. So there's one place where even suggests that The reformers know the reformers did not come along and say.

57:29

Oh, well actually Uh, we're just coming up with all sorts of new stuff. We don't care what anybody believed before us

57:34

That's not what they were saying their biblicism Was not a biblicism that in essence said we are the first generation to have ever read the bible

57:45

Their biblicism made it the primary source of authority the the norma normata but it did not

57:53

Present the idea that no one before me has ever thought of the things that I am now thinking of That just simply isn't how it happened according to my clock.

58:02

You're early Really Well, pardon my clock. You're about 15 seconds early

58:09

Now and who knows what I could have said in that 15 seconds It may have been the thing that allowed people to understand what nc wright was saying who knows.

58:18

Oh just finish up. Okay. All right All right, folks, uh heading to charlotte on wednesday thursday night debate with michael brown

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Saturday debate, uh with shadid lewis, uh presenting papers rts ses

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See y 'all there. We'll see you next week. God bless We must contend for the faith that fathers fought for we need a new reformation day

59:24

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59:32

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59:40

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