Becoming Better Theologians (part 36)

Father in heaven, we are just so thankful as we look around us this morning and even think about the unexpected warmth that father as We just enjoy this time of the year

We just praise you for that and would just would praise you for bringing us here together this morning to look to your word

To discuss things to think about what your word tells us about you about ourselves about what we

Ought to believe and how we ought to think father. I pray that you would bless our time in Christ's name. Amen well,

I Don't know about you guys how many of you Spend any time during the

Christmas season shopping almost nobody.

Okay good Because I I have this thing, you know, like I always like to surprise my wife every year and And One year as a matter of fact,

I had something sent to a friend's house because it was too big to arrive at our house without my wife knowing what it was and so I I Had a sent to my friend's house and I took the we had a minivan back then and I took the minivan to work

And my wife just kind of goes I go. Yeah, I think I'm gonna take the van to work tonight I was working graveyard shift and she just kind of goes

Then I came home in the morning and I had this huge thing, you know, and I thought I was pretty cool and She goes oh, you know, she was excited and everything

And then she goes now your gift is in The extra room which I never go in and she had like one up me because all these shelves were all these bookshelves

Library quality bookshelves were up there and they were installed that I hadn't even noticed. So Totally aware.

Well, anyway this morning I'm going to talk for just a minute about something called the perfect Or find the perfect gift

Find the perfect gift org And I mentioned this I saw this character. I record a

TV show every week and I watched it and I Saw this man, his name's Donald Whirl.

Anybody know who Donald Whirl is? He's the

Cardinal Roman Catholic Church in Washington DC So he was talking about this

This website and find the perfect gift which seems appropriate right at Christmas And I think this is the

Orthodox Day for Christmas, but I digress And so I went to this website

And so what I thought we'd do for a few minutes here this morning is talk about what is on this website and compare it

With what the Bible says and I and I think this will be pretty interactive. Let's listen to first this question and Again, this is from all this is the entire

What we believe their statement of faith as it were from find the perfect gift org Number one question.

I mean these are all in question and answer format. So I think it's kind of nice number one Most important thing you need to know.

Why do I need to confess my sins to a priest? Let's see.

Listen, he says I'm gonna skip some of it he says but when the Lord Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon his apostles in the upper room and Conferred on them the power to forgive sins in his name

When he said whose sins you forgive they are forgiven whose sins you retain they are retained He bestowed one of the most sublime gifts upon his church

Are we how we respond to something like that? Is that how do we respond to that?

What's that with horror It's like somebody taking a chainsaw to you.

No, it's What do you say to that is that right Why isn't it right?

Hebrews tells us we have one high priest when he said Okay, and the

Hebrews is all about the superiority of Christ and how the Levitical priesthood has been done away with And Pam rightly says

I think that there's a certain sense in which the Roman Catholic Church Tries to continue the

Levitical priesthood that sort of ceremonial representation What else?

We're priests Okay, first Timothy 2 5 tells us there's one mediator between God and men

So in other words, here's the idea of the Roman Catholic Church. You go to the confession booth and The priest hears your confession and then what happens he gives you an assignment little homework

You know Ten our fathers ten, you know, and I think there there must be some kind of sliding scale depending on how serious the

Sin is, you know, then you go on your way and he forgives you Listen to see he goes on to say through the grace of ordination

The priest is able to act in the person of Christ not in his own name when he absolves sin and the verse for that is

It must be somewhere in Tobit because I'm not really or Bell the dragon I'm not really

Familiar that and and that's something this thing is Six pages long and I think what you'll find is there isn't a whole lot of scripture here.

In fact bordering on none When he absolves sin You know the in Latin what do they say when they absolve you of your sin, what's the phrase

How many of you know Latin I don't either but here's one I do know and it and because I've kind of changed it a little bit

Our priest will say if he speaks Latin he will say what Brian Brian has no idea.

Okay, he'll say tae absolvo, which means I forgive you tae being you and absolvo being

I Forgive you and I I've resolved or I've changed that to may absolvo.

I forgive myself I Mean that's kind of I don't know.

But anyway What where would we get the idea that a priest or anybody else has the power to?

absolve Or act in the place of God, and I don't think we would see that Yeah I mean that the priests had their own sins to deal with and they couldn't do anything more than act as a representative and and really

Just kind of ceremonially clean someone. So so this idea of you know him giving you and how does he know?

How does he know exactly how many our fathers, you know, God says I I mean, it's just absurd but listen, he says

The sacrament of confession. It's a sacrament according to the Roman Catholic Church confirms our forgiveness by God and assures if as Assures us of his love and see here's what

I say. I say, you know what assures us of the love of God That we're still breathing is one.

I mean, I mean, I don't think you have to go any further than what the cross of Christ You want evidence of the love of God?

No greater or no love greater Love hath no man than he laid down his life for another that's what

Christ did in our place Then he says confession reconciles us not only to God but also to his church

The communion of which is diminished by every sin that we commit I mean,

I think you know the interesting thing there is I think there's some validity to that and Let me just put it this way when somebody in the body is in sin, does that damage the church?

How does it damage the church? okay, so if we're to be ambassadors for Christ as Peggy said and we're to Bring Christ to the world and we're in sin.

Then we diminish the witness of Christ to the world. That's true, right? What else in what other ways

Okay, because we're one body when one part of the body is suffering the body suffers when one party of the

When one part of the body is in sin, then in some sense we all suffer

It's like I would compare it to kind of like an infection, you know You might have an infection on your little toe it is go

Well, it's only my little toe, but when you're walking and you start, you know, I mean it impacts everything So, yeah,

Charlie, oh

That that is so good. Charlie said when you're secretly harboring sin, what does it do?

You withdraw from the presence of people who would convict you you don't want to be around other Saints, you know first John talks about what that Christians love to be around other

Christians Why is that? because we all share in the joy of Christ and we all value our forgiveness and we all are of one mind and Toward one goal we press toward one goal and so when someone is in sin and they really don't want to be discovered then they withdraw from that because just by being around other

Christians, what do you do? You feel guilty You feel like you know,

I don't know like a fourth -class Christian tenderfoot Christian to put it in Boy Scout terms

So that was number one number two is Jesus really present and of course, they mean they're in the communion.

They just didn't put that I mean Is Jesus really present? Let's say he says

Catholics believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is the source of all grace and occurred in time only once Any problems with that But I kind of like that.

That's that's pretty good probably but then You have to keep reading by instituting the sacrament of the

Holy Eucharist during the Last Supper, however, however Christ commissioned his apostles and their successors to represent the one sacrifice in a sacramental way as a result, we believe that Christ's sacrifice is truly made present at every

Mass and hence Christ himself is truly present under the appearance of Bread and wine and the appearances of bread and wine

You know, it's interesting because what what doesn't that really say it it really would diminish the sufficiency of Christ but mark

Okay Great point. I mean really the church takes the place of God the church becomes the agency through which

Grace and mercy are dispensed. That's true But I want to read this one more time and then

I'll make a final comment As a result, we believe that Christ's sacrifice is truly made present every

Mass and hence Christ himself is truly present Under the appearances of bread and wine

That's really not what they believe That's not Transfiguration that is or transfiguration.

That's not transubstantiation That's consubstantiation. That's kind of a Lutheran idea there that there's a real sense in which

Christ is present in The the bread and the wine but transubstantiation, which is the

Catholic doctrine Says what? that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ and You know, so it's not this

Kind of almost symbolic the way it's written here And number three is communion reserved to Catholics Is communion reserved to Catholics?

And again, they're talking about the Eucharist he says Jesus listen, let's open our

Bibles to John chapter 6 Jesus was not speaking metaphorically when he repeatedly emphasized that my body is true food and my blood is true drink and Hence, the church has reserved the reception of Holy Communion to Christians Etc, etc, etc.

Let's look at John chapter 6 as I open to my

Bible upside down. I'm just reminded, you know, it's amazing is how quickly children learn things

You know January our granddaughter will sit there and she will actually open books and she knows when they're upside down She can't read or anything up.

But you know, even when they don't have pictures you just go. How do they know? It's kind of weird John chapter 6 and Jesus says here that well, let's start in verse.

Let's start in verse 41 so the Jews grumbled about him because he said

I am the bread that came down from heaven They said is this not Jesus the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know.

How does he now say I have come down from heaven? Jesus answered them do not grumble among yourselves

No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day

Let's go down to verse 48. I Am the bread of life your father ate the manna in the wilderness and they died

This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat of it and not die

I am the living bread that came down from heaven If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh

The Jews then disputed amongst among themselves saying how can this man give us his flesh to eat?

So Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood

You have no life in you Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day

For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him as The Living Father sent me and I live because the

Father so whoever feeds on me He will also live because of me This is the bread that came down from heaven

Not like the bread that the father's ate and died whoever feeds on this bread will live forever

Okay to go back to what he said Jesus was not speaking metaphorically when he repeatedly emphasized that my body is true food.

This gets back to the transubstantiation, but what else is this with this What other issues might we have here if he doesn't speak metaphorically?

What verse is that? Okay, verse 63 is the spirit who gives life the flesh is no help at all

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life, but there are some of you do not believe For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe and Who it was who would betray him and he said this is why

I told you then that no one can come to me Unless it is granted him by the Father After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him now when we say metaphorically, what do you know?

Let's just get down to the basics. What does it mean to speak metaphorically Steve?

symbolism So he's saying that Jesus wasn't merely talking about symbols. He wasn't saying that symbolically

I am the bread of life he meant If you don't if you're not speaking metaphorically, then you're speaking literally

So when he says unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood You'll not have eternal life

Can you imagine why the Jews who were listening to it might have been shocked Cannibalism let's go back to what they said here and I'll get to you a second

Daniel Jesus when this was not speaking metaphorically Well, then I don't doubt that they were pretty shocked

Daniel I mean it would it it really would have been shocking especially if he wasn't speaking metaphorically and you know

I've spoken to Catholic apologists about this and I say you need to tell me that He wasn't speaking metaphorically.

I say no and I go well then What are the what are the disciples do do they just attack him

I mean If you say this the only way to heaven is to you know, eat of my flesh and drink of my blood

What happens when his flesh? Well, thankfully the well the priest wouldn't be there just yet It doesn't make any sense at all

But it but it's a a way of explaining their doctrine. Yes Yeah, if this is what was supposed to be instituted then surely the

Apostle Paul the Apostle Peter somebody must have written that down so that we could understand exactly how we're to do that or By what how that all takes place?

I mean, you know, you said the exact words incantation, you know when I was I Grew up in the

Mormon Church and when I was a priest We didn't have to wear any holy vestments by the way

But when I was a priest at the age of 16, we would every week we would pray over the sacraments

We had bread and we had water water bread and water and We had to tear the bread up and you know all that stuff

But when we prayed we had a specific prayer that we had to pray and if you missed one word on that You had to do it all over again

In fact, you know the guy next to you was supposed to make sure that you read it, right? And you know then sometimes maybe it was kind of iffy and you look up at the bishop or somebody else and they'd give you the kind of or you know and It is some guys that took them five or six times.

I mean it could get pretty long So at least they have that, you know, but they didn't teach the real presence, but listen to this

The church has reserved the reception of Holy Communion to Christians. Listen who believe in the real presence

Then he says this is an act of charity And Because basically to summarize it it's an act of charity to To restrict it in this way because otherwise you would take partake of it in an unworthy manner and bring condemnation on you on yourself and Listen, he says since communion implies not only union with Christ and the

Blessed Sacrament But also union with his mystical body the church it is reserved

To Christians who are in union with the church that Jesus founded and with all the church's teachings

Which would seem to imply and he does say that not even all Catholics can necessarily receive

Holy Communion I'll refrain further comment on that.

I just think of some people in Congress who've been told they shouldn't take communion Probably not the comments

Yep, well, they don't

They don't they don't address justification this doctor doctor rent it's a doctrine and it's a document so it's a doctor rent

So I I'm really not gonna get into justification, but I think we'll see how they deal with different subjects

I think it'll become pretty obvious as we move along here the number four Oh Steve. Go ahead That's an excellent point

You know if he wasn't speaking metaphorically there and then was he when he said I am the door You know, what do you you know?

What do you mean, you know grab my right arm and twist it and then you know push me out of the way It's just foolishness

And number four, why are infants baptized? The answer

Catholics believe that baptism was instituted by Christ. Well, that's true Let's just stop there.

Nope. Wait, not only for adults, but also for children so they can receive listen The gift of supernatural life in the ordinary

I Was about to go to the next page in the ordinary sacramental way You can receive the gift of supernatural life

Having a little water sprinkling Then they go on and they say parents and godparents profess the faith on behalf of their children until the their children can make their own profession

So you get baptized? That's how you receive Eternal life.

I'll never forget and one of the reasons why I so Never want to go to another

Roman Catholic funeral again, and I was at Steve's mom's funeral and was a very it was a sad affair because The Roman Catholic priest up there was just he was just kind of I'll just say he was blathering and I I told

Steve later I don't even think the guy really believed what he said, and then he said this He said that Steve's mom and feel free to correct me if I have any of this wrong but he said we know she's in heaven because she was baptized and Because she performed and he went on to list some good works.

She she was part of this Sewing circle or knitting circle. I might have some of that But but it was those kind of things and she was baptized that was the he and that's that's what he's saying here

So they can receive this the gift of supernatural life Well, maybe but they don't really they don't like to talk about purgatory, that's a good question because you know

Why do you go to purgatory? We'll get to that. I mean, they don't talk about purgatory, but we'll get there at number five

Why can't women be become priests? Now there's an obvious answer to this

What's the obvious answer? Because the Bible says so I mean we just look at first Timothy chapter 2

It's about verse 10, you know, we and we get there but but listen this Catholics believe that Christ was not bound to the limitations of his surrounding culture again.

I give a hearty. Amen to that Why because he's the creator of the world and he can do what he wants

But listen, he says and that and that therefore his appointment of the twelve apostles all men was a free and deliberate choice.

I Agree that I don't really think it goes far enough, but I agree with that the church has therefore taught through the centuries that she has

She being the church has no right to ordain women as priests bishops successors of the

Apostles and the priests who are their cooperators Stand in the place of Christ as bridegroom of the church and share in the fatherhood in the order of grace

That's I guess why they want you to call them father or whatever But I mean stand in the place of Christ as bridegroom

I mean take a step down and just say you're the best man or something, but you know

Then the second the second point they say here is in no way However, is this exclusion of the priesthood to men to be understood as a sign of masculine superiority to which the ladies say?

Amen Especially since listen the greatest human creature the masterpiece of divine grace is the

Blessed Virgin Mary greatest human creature

You know and I guess You can't really say Jesus Contradicted that when he said John the Baptist was the greatest born of women because oh wait you could say that Well, I guess you have a problem there anyway number six

What is with and I like the way this is phrased. This is very You know Academic what is with celibacy in the priesthood

The Latin right church well, I had to fake you know I had to really study this to figure out what that meant What is the

Latin right? Rite not RIG HT. What is the Latin right church?

See you guys didn't know either It means the church at Rome I mean I and it only becomes clear when you sort of listen everything they actually oh yeah here

It is later on in the paragraph. He says while Eastern right churches have elected to ordain married men to the priesthood

The Latin Church, so the Church of Rome is how we are to understand that the Roman Church has chosen to continue to the ancient practice

That's a typo the ancient practice of ordaining the priesthood only or to the priesthood only unmarried

Men a practice that many scholars believe has its origins in apostolic times

Well, I mean there's no evidence that many scholars believe. What does the Bible teach? Yeah, the

Peter had a mother -in -law where he got her. I don't know It's adopted mother -in -law,

I think Celibacy is a powerful witness of undivided love for Christ in a singular way to exercise paternity in order of grace

You know to just make it as plain and simple as I can without going into great detail because we are a mixed audience

It's unnatural. It's just unnatural. You know I have unbelieving friends who? You know on one side or the other either they're you know appalled by what's going on in the

Roman Catholic Church, or they you know just think that we're all the same and so they They you know it's scandal after scandal after scandal.

I'm like. What do you expect when you ask people to do? What is? Opposite their creative This is not what they were created to do you're telling them to be something other than what

God created them to be It says the Latin Church the Roman Catholic Church has continued to treasure a priestly celibacy as a particular gift of the

Lord and An impetus to pastoral charity they don't say whether that means you know we are to feel sorry for them and therefore give them

Money or whether I I think it really I like this Think of it this way an impetus to pastoral charity in other words whatever money the pastors die with goes

To the charitable organization of their choice the church That's probably more accurate because really that the doctrine didn't come into being till about 1 ,000

AD and it's something entirely made up now Doctrinal questions will move real quickly here question number one you pray to the

Saints why? Why do they pray to the Saints? Catholics believe that the family of God resides not only on earth, but also in heaven in the community of the

Saints I Agree Then It gets a little sketchy as we can ask another person to pray for us to God We can also ask the

Saints in heaven to pray for us Again, there's something missing.

It's called Scripture. What's the scriptural authority for that? It goes on to say it is not idolatry since a

Catholic never adores the Saints But simply venerates them and asks for their intercession before the throne of God What's another word for intercession?

Mediation So if I was to say we have more than one intercessor You can say well, that's different than mediator, and I would say no.

It's not what is an intercessor someone who stands before? Someone else on your behalf

What is a mediator someone who stands before someone else in your behalf? There's one mediator between God and man the man

Christ Jesus That's right Number two or the second doctrinal question what yes

Where do scripture and tradition enter into the faith life? Where do scripture and tradition enter of the faith life?

They say here Christ promised to send his spirit upon the church Sure, which he did at the Feast of Pentecost true and Catholics believe that the spirit continues to guide the church into a deeper awareness of the full truth of the gospel

I Mean as things have as time has gone along.

I think we could argue that we've developed You know more systematized way of understanding the scripture. I guess you could say that that's true as a result

The deposit of the faith left to the church by Christ can be found in the sacred scriptures. Amen But I'm not done and in The unbroken oral teaching from the time of the

Apostles also called the apostolic tradition Unbroken oral teaching you know some

Sunday, I'm gonna really have to tear apart the Council of Orange and Present it how many have ever heard of the

Council of Orange? Brian what do you know about the Council of Orange? It's a it's an amazing document.

I think it's from the 6th century and you read it in his go

That really sounds pretty reformed. I mean it's We wouldn't probably have too many problems with it

And it is the exact opposite of what the Roman Catholic Church teaches day and yet they would say that that was a council

You know and what how do they defend that Brian, by the way, you have any idea? I just like to pick on Brian because he's the resident

Roman Catholic a former Roman Catholic Okay so it's kind of like the

You know a little soft shoe a little song and dance Only the church.

Yes, okay So they let's see, where was

I over here? Yep, just a second Unbroken oral tradition for the time of the

Apostles and it's interesting too because if you follow timelines there are different Roman Catholic timelines for the or different lines of Popes so it goes from Peter and then as you get down to about the fifth or sixth name

There are different names and you go. Wait a minute These are both Roman Catholic sources and they don't agree with each other

Charlie Okay, two two points first is about Lazarus and the rich man talks about the gulf fixed between Abraham's bosom and Hell I guess we could say and now what what are we to make about that?

What kind of lessons can we learn from that? I With regard to praying to Saints and whatever

Because what what does the rich man say to He asks for yeah, if yeah, if he if somebody could be sent back to and And the answer is you know that they have

Moses and the prophets right and they and they don't believe them So they wouldn't believe even if somebody was raised from the dead.

I mean, they're they're just not going to believe And so what what can we learn about that I Think basically here's what

I would say. I I personally believe it's a it's a parable So, I don't think everything is perfectly analogous but in any event here's what we would know we would we would know that there's

That there's no Possibility of going from hell to heaven we wouldn't understand that but I think there are just too many problems with that Analogy but the second one about Praying to the

Saints. Oh if the Saints could hear our prayers If they could and we have no scriptural evidence that they could but if they could would they not hear some sinful requests some sinful

Confessions some sinful actions, you know, would you help me overcome this sin or that sin or the other thing?

Well while they're taking in those things then what happens to them? You know, I mean Ostensibly we think well now they they are

Exposed to sin and so they would be ejected from heaven. I mean, there are so many issues with this praying the

Saints not only you know is it not found in the Bible and we could also argue and I think rightfully so that if we were to look at the pagan world as it existed at the time of Constantine when

Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire And what he did was they very nicely took the idolatry the pagan worldview and they transposed it on to Christianity so praying to the

Saints really was praying to the lesser gods and they just transferred all that But yeah,

I think on both parts. You're right I think the the whole idea of praying to the Saints not only is it not found in the Bible But it opens up a whole can of worms

What would we expect these Saints to do? And of course the idea is that they would then intercede for us Well again, we get back to first Timothy 2 5 the fact that there's only one mediator for us, but we also would wind up with a situation where they're exposed to sin and you know, how could that be and All kinds of issues

Pam and that's really a great point, you know talking about necromancy

The witch of Endor, you know all these kind of things What is the difference between trying to pray to someone who is dead and trying to contact the world of the dead?

And you know, I I think it it does open all kinds of problems, you know, well, it's your intent.

Your intent is good well, who knows what you're gonna wind up doing, you know, and And if the

Saints trust the Eucharist there now anyway, all right, so Let's move on here

Well, this is quite bad I have to read this anyway at number three, is there a connection between faith and works

Listen faith is the foundation of our spiritual life. Perfect. Stop. Oh wait, and and the necessary condition for salvation

Okay however Catholics believe that good works performed through the power of grace informing our free choices are

An integral element of the Christian life it is in this context through the gift of gratuitous grace

May I ask what grace is not gratuitous? there are Good works can be called meritorious.

I don't even know, you know What what level of good works do you have to reach to get into heaven?

Well, you know according I'm just trying to figure out perfection is the biblical answer I'm trying to figure out what the

Roman Catholic answer is I have no idea But you know it all goes in that if you earn enough during your life

Then you get into heaven and you know If you have extra then that goes in the Treasury of Merit Number four need to move fast now number four.

Is there a place of intersection between faith and science? Now this is interesting.

There is no conflict. This is their answer. There is no conflict between true faith and true science Yeah, I'd rather have it say there's no conflict between the

Bible and true science, but that's fine But then they say since truth is one

Since truth is one and legitimate claims of truth cannot be in conflict. Okay? When there seems to be a conflict between faith and science

This is where I think it falls off a cliff Either our understanding of the faith is inaccurate or our understanding of of science is inaccurate or both

In an age that is increasingly cynical about our capacity to know any truth through human reason the church vigorously defends the proper autonomy of reason and Its capacity to discover truth okay, our

They strenuously defend our objective to our ability to reason

But then they say, you know going back up just a little bit it says That if there seems to be a conflict either our understanding of the faith is inaccurate or our understanding of science is inaccurate

Well, that's our ability to reason right? I I just didn't like that at all

You know, they're saying we're cynical. We seem to think that we don't have the capacity to understand understand the truth

And then they're saying well, you know what there appears to be conflict. We might be wrong about our faith and about science. I Think that that seems like we don't have an ability to discover the truth

There five does hell exist Yes They say hell is the consequence

Listen of mortal sin when it is not repentant of before death Mortal and venal.

I don't exactly know what the difference is But you know choosing not to go to church when you can that's a mortal sin.

I don't know if you know that or not so no more staying home to watch Patriot Games as Result it does not reflect an injustice or cruelty on the part of God, but the proof of his respect for our own free choices

That's what hell is How about you know, I mean? So there's hell everybody's suffering for eternity and You know, they're all walking around going.

Well, at least God respects us enough to give us our it's just the

No mention of the holiness of God his justice his hatred of sin none of that number six, how do

I honor other religions? Catholics believe that there is once one

God and Jesus is the Son of God Good Other religions may continue to contain seeds of truth.

You know what? Okay, because Satan Counterfeits the truth, right? But they do not reflect the supernatural revelation that culminated in the coming of Jesus Christ.

Okay good Only God is able to judge souls. However, and To know if someone has truly followed him in good conscience according to his or her lights

I'm Earl once having a Christian tell me that they weren't sure whether or not a Jehovah Witness was in heaven

Because they as far as this person knew they were faithful to the light that God gave them.

Yeah. Oh, that's really That's rough Yeah, I mean

Romans 1 says what that all men are without excuse just by virtue of general revelation. There's enough for them

To be convicted of their sinfulness They say here. No one is excluded from the possibility of salvation

In fact, since we believe that every person is made in the luck in the image and likeness of God Everyone is endowed with an intrinsic human dignity true.

That must be honored whatever his or her beliefs are but there's nothing in there about Sin or about sin nature or anything else just really bad

Is abortion always wrong? Taking innocent life is never justified for this reason.

We believe abortion is immoral in all circumstances. I'm like, okay, how about just Bible thou shalt not commit murder

Are all forms of contraception wrong? Now this is kind of interesting listen to this and this might kind of shock you a little bit a little jolt of caffeine

I'm gonna go quickly since contraception is the deliberate exclusion of the possibility of generating new life and Thereby does not respect the nature of a married couple's love as cooperating with God's creative will we believe that it is always immoral?

But I think it gets even worse Here I'll skip over a natural planning there was something here

Oh, yeah, is in vitro fertilization against church teaching In vitro fertilization is the deliberate exclusion of the in unitive dimension of spousal love from the conception of a human being

It constitutes a grave violation of the moral law The act is rendered even more serious when in the case now,

I agree with this surplus embryos must be aborted I think that's alright, but I mean the idea that in vitro fertilization is always

Wrong and sinful. I don't know. I have a question about that. You know I'll never forget Jerry rag

We were in a premarital counseling class. We're sitting in on it and Young man who was 18 raises hand he said you know what is the

Grace Community Church teach about? Birth control and Jerry said well we teach exactly what the

Bible does The young man said well, what's that? We don't we don't teach it then he said but if you're going to be married and by the way

They do discuss the rhythm method in case I If you're going to be married you need to be prepared for what?

children If you're on the rhythm method you need to be prepared for what? children

Yeah Okay now forms a

Premarital sexual relations the gift of sexuality is to be used only in the context of matrimony very good

Now this is kind of interesting one number 10. It's a good question right it's expensive.

What's wrong with cohabitation? And they just get they just it is pretty good, but I mean it's not perfect because it's not scriptural

But but yeah, it does get to the root of the nature or root of the issue now. This is an interesting What is what does the church teach about divorce?

Texts about the permanence of marriage and everything and then it says this remarriage after a civil divorce is always

Inadmissible unless a process of a gnomon has concluded that a valid bond was not for was not formed previously

How do you get it annulled break out your checkbook? That's how you get it annulled

And how do I make sense of homosexual behavior now if you know anything about the

Bible I Shouldn't put it that way Where am

I to go in the Bible to say listen? This is this is how we get to where we are in the world today

How the world views homosexuality and everything else where will we go? Romans 1 there's no mention of the

Bible here. He just says How do

I make sense of homosexual behavior, well, it's sinful people doing sinful things is the correct answer But he says homosexual activity cannot express this dual intention of sexual intimacy is always immoral, right?

their Homosexuals are exhorted to strive with God's grace to live the virtue of chastity and pursue healthy and wholesome relationships with others

I know but that's not that's just not you know Why doesn't the church allow gay marriage marriage as an institution created not by a man, but by God true now

Real quickly just the last three questions, and you just have to go What does the church's stand on immigration?

I would say the church's stand on immigration ought to be the same as what it is on birth control Which is nothing but instead they have this

The gospel demands that every person now listen to that again the gospel What is the gospel the good news about Jesus Christ that Jesus Christ second person the

Trinity has come? Lived a perfect life in the place of sinners died in the place of sinners been resurrected on the third day the gospel

Demands that every person whether or not they are legally documented be treated with the dignity which is theirs and with compassion for their well -being

Well, that's not the gospel The Bible would say as an image bearer every person should be treated with dignity and that is right

But that has nothing to do with the gospel Does the church have a teaching on capital punishment, but I'll just shorten it they say yes

The the state can practice capital punishment, but listen The culture of death that characterizes our society today warrants and even more warrants and even more

Cautious approach to capital punishment since it may further contribute to a culture that already fails to appreciate the profound dignity of every human life

It's kind of kind of missing the point and this is the last question and this is just It's social justice part of the church's teaching

The church has always understood that part of her mission is to advance the welfare of humanity in her teachings on social justice

They going to explain seven themes of social justice have been articulated notice at seven Themes of social justice have been articulated by the

United States Conference of Catholic bishops that provide a Glimpse of the richness and depth of this crucial dimension of the church's ministry and teaching now

You know what? You can go to the Old Testament. You can show that We're to take care of the poor were to take care of the widows and orphans

And I think all those principles are true today. We certainly would see that in James even But part of the church's mission is social justice

You know reforming the world making the world more fair World's never gonna be fair but what

I What I mostly wanted to bring out this morning is just a look at this and think through a few things

You're gonna have a website titled What does it receive the perfect gift or find the birth find the perfect gift?

org Find the perfect gift I'm reading all that and you know, what's missing.

This is their statement of belief. What is missing? salvation the gospel

What's the perfect gift? The perfect gift is salvation It's available through Jesus Christ.

This is all about Christmas allegedly Yeah, there's no mention of the gospel

No presentation of the gospel You know all these rights and other things are explained but no mention of the gospel

And this is the world and by the way in which we live, you know, this you have Catholic friends

Catholic family Some of you were saved Catholics yourselves this is

What they're immersed in this is kind of their outreach to Lapsed Catholics to get them back in the fold what

Catholics need what Roman Catholics need is the gospel They need the Bible and that is what is sorely missing in this whole thing.

We need a closing prayer father in heaven Lord we

We have been made recipients of your love your kindness your mercy And not just your common grace by which you give us all good things but your

Specific grace by which you cause us to be born again father,

I would pray for Any who are here this morning who are not saved Lord that you would open their eyes

To the truth that the Bible contains everything that we need to know pertaining to life and godliness

That you have revealed yourself to us in scriptures that we might know you the one true living

God Father I'd pray that you would make us Not people who are satisfied when we hear someone say that they're a

Christian or someone say that they're a Roman Catholic and they're perfectly Content but that we would challenge them to know

What the Bible says that they might know that they can know that they can know that they belong to you

And not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches Father make us ambassadors for your grace.