Don't Talk To The Police

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified

00:10

Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles. It's the same idea. It's the same end.

00:15

I would say, what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust? In the cosmic picture, none.

00:21

There's no problem. In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr.

00:28

President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.

00:47

I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar.

00:56

He is a powerful savior, and the gospel is not a suggestion.

01:02

It is a command. Reverend Moller, don't you sympathize with that?

01:12

I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

01:27

Thresh on an amazing adventure. We will explore the spiritual abyss.

01:33

You have not experienced this before. All right, hey, so let's say, first of all, welcome everybody to Apology Radio, and as you can all see from the title that we've placed up there,

02:14

Don't Talk to the Police. A few people already making comments. You really created a fire.

02:19

Just everyone, we want you just to give the benefit of the doubt and understand that there's, of course, nuance to this.

02:29

Well, the title, just like of anything, like a book, when you read the title of a book, you don't just go, oh,

02:35

I read that. I read that book. No, you read the title of it. Right. This is the meat of what's happening.

02:43

Welcome to the meat. Welcome to the show, everybody. There's more to be said, of course, but yes, but I want to say that I stand behind the title in terms of its fundamental premise and substance there is

02:56

Don't Talk to the Police, and I want to say to everybody out there who's like, so you're saying that you hate the police?

03:03

You're saying that you're an anarchist? The answer is no. We believe that all of civil government ordained by God, that you have people that are meant to wield the sword and not wield it in vain.

03:14

Of course, we want to have people who are involved in law enforcement. We want a criminal justice system.

03:19

Of course, of course, of course. But we believe that you shouldn't talk to the police because of Scripture.

03:26

Now, if that's whetting your appetite and piquing your curiosity, welcome to Apology Radio.

03:33

We're going to get into the text of the Word of God today. We're actually going to get even into the constitutional amendments.

03:40

We're going to talk about the Fourth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment and how it was the biblical worldview that gave the world that incredible blessing of the

03:49

Fourth and the Fifth Amendment. You've heard about things like the right to remain silent. Well, isn't it a lovely and amazing thing that it wasn't secularism, humanism, atheism, agnosticism that gave the world those amazing benefits?

04:03

It was Jesus. It was the lawmaker, the lawgiver.

04:09

It is the God of the Bible that gave us that wonderful, lovely thing that says you have the right to remain silent.

04:16

It wasn't secularism that gave us that. It was actually biblical principles, biblical law that says you have the right to remain silent.

04:25

And that would be included in the Great Commission, would it not? It absolutely would. Teach people to do what?

04:30

Obey. Obey who? Obey the God of the Bible. All. All. Exactly. Everything.

04:36

So, we want to get back to a rigorous biblical worldview, world and life view, the kind of world and life view that infects every area of the world with blessing and goodness and justice and peace and all those things.

04:50

And believe it or not, an abandonment of biblical law is what gets us into the place today where you have people like what happened yesterday at the

05:00

Phoenix City Council Chambers. Oh, man. People were going, bananas.

05:06

That was great. Bananas. Because of unjust police officers. Yeah. Now, we want to just say any police officer that pulls a gun on somebody for a child, for stealing a doll, or anything like that at all, when you have circumstances that do not require you pulling a weapon, that's a real problem and you should lose your job.

05:31

You should not be a cop. But it really starts beneath that. So, we can talk about what happened in Phoenix recently, the injustice.

05:39

We could talk about pulling a gun on a mother with a baby and children in the car over the issue of theft.

05:45

But, you know, really, in order to solve the problem, you've got to go beneath it.

05:50

You've got to get to the foundational principles that really are codified, thankfully, in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments and really get us carried out into issues where we start talking about the right to remain silent.

06:01

But what gives you the basis for those standards of justice? And I want to say, believe it or not, it's biblical law.

06:08

It was the two to three independent witnesses. A couple things. I'll just throw this out and, I guess, let's just start, right?

06:16

So, a couple verses here. You're probably all familiar with these. It runs from the

06:22

Old Testament to the New Testament. So, I want to just say this for those of you guys that want to say we need to unhitch from the

06:29

Old Testament and Old Covenant law. This is something that's repeated post -cross, post -resurrection, post -ascension of Jesus.

06:35

So, this is repeated after Christ has ascended and seated on his throne. New Covenant, in effect, all that stuff.

06:43

So, a couple things. So, you're all familiar with this one. Matthew 18, there's a Lord Jesus. Verse 16,

06:49

Jesus, when he talks about church discipline, he says, do what? You go to him privately first.

06:56

But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you so that, and here's

07:02

Jesus quoting the law of God. By the mouth of two or three witnesses, every fact may be confirmed.

07:08

Now, what's that coming from? That's coming from the judicial law. This is a law for judges and the judicial system.

07:15

Now, this is so critical. Man, does this ever need to be said. Man, this gets missed a lot.

07:21

Because people will oftentimes say, okay, two or three witnesses, that means that if two or three people say something, that means it's true.

07:27

No, no, no, no. The judicial standard is that you cannot receive an accusation against a person, period.

07:34

It's not even allowed to be admitted unless it's two to three independent witnesses.

07:40

That's two to three independent lines of evidence, witness, or testimony. Now, does it mean that every time you have two or three people saying something, it means it's true?

07:49

And there are actually, there are even pastors that are ignorant of that. They assume that because two or three people say something, that means it's true.

07:57

No, it has to be two to three independent witnesses. You could have one person influencing two or three other people, and they're just buying that person's story and regurgitating it.

08:09

God's standard is two to three independent lines of witness. So, you don't want the collaboration going on, right, those sorts of things.

08:20

So, that was from Jesus, Matthew 18. But that's, of course, coming from Deuteronomy 19, verse 15.

08:26

And here's what it is. It says, It means you need to have those two to three independent lines of witness to actually bring charges against somebody.

08:44

It's actually repeated again in 2 Corinthians 13, 1. This is the

08:49

Apostle Paul. He says, This is the third time I'm coming to you. Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

08:55

And then, of course, in 1 Timothy 5, 19, the Apostle Paul says, It's repeated again in Hebrews 10, verse 28.

09:08

So, here's the point. It runs through and through Scripture. This is what God wants us to hold on to. Now, what you see in Scripture, and I'll shut up here.

09:16

You guys feel free to jump in. What you see in Scripture is that that standard runs into interpersonal relationships, and it runs into the judicial realm.

09:26

And so, this is just a biblical principle and standard that God expects us to apply really universally.

09:34

And what is glorious is that when you have the

09:39

Christian church really thriving and growing in and around the time of the

09:44

Reformation, you also had some pretty brutal moments of government oppression.

09:51

And you had Christians, and we can't do a whole thing today on today's show about this. I think we've done a show about this sometime in the past.

09:59

Maybe I'll try to put a link to it somewhere in here. Just give the history of this. So, just a quick rundown.

10:05

You had an instance where, even in the English government, you had people being brought up on charges, police forces going out into the streets, and literally just going and ransacking people's homes, searching and seizing property, looking for evidence for crimes.

10:22

You had people being brought up even in the West. In the Western tradition, there was a moment where people were even being brought up on charges, and they didn't even know what they were being charged with, because what was being read to them in court was in a different language, like in Latin.

10:36

And so, they don't even know what's being said, and they're being asked to swear on the basis of charges.

10:43

They don't even know what's being said to them. And so, you had Christians who had experienced a really dramatic form of government oppression and injustice, and Christians learned from that, went back to the word of God, the law of God, and they started saying things like, wait a second,

11:03

God's judicial law here, the general equity of this law, says you've got to have two to three independent witnesses, which means this, that no one's even supposed to receive an accusation unless it's on the basis of these two or three witnesses, which means this,

11:15

I, as a person who's being accused, I don't have to offer any help.

11:21

I have the right, biblical law gives me the right before God against self -incrimination.

11:28

Here's the point, in God's law, if somebody's guilty, then you, the court doesn't need this person's help to get to show it, because you have witnesses and evidences and testimony that demonstrate their guilt, right?

11:45

Without question, because you have these independent witnesses. So in biblical law, there is no requirement on the part of the accused to help the accuser.

11:54

And if you want to say, hmm, where would I see that happening? I would say, how about the trial of Jesus?

12:01

The trial of Jesus, you have witnesses being brought forth against Jesus, but what's wrong?

12:07

Here's all these witnesses, and their testimonies are not matching up, so they're not ultimately counting as legitimate witnesses, but they're firing off.

12:16

But people are accusing Jesus during his trials, and here's the lawgiver himself, Jesus. Here's God in the flesh at this horrible mockery of a trial and justice, and you have people who are lying in court about Jesus, and what is the accused doing as the lawgiver?

12:32

What's he doing? Saying nothing, right? He's not helping them. He's not giving them any assistance.

12:38

Why? Because he has the right, according to God, against self -incrimination, and if these people are going to lie about him, feel free to lie.

12:45

I'm not helping you. I'm not giving you any assistance. You're a liar. God knows the truth. I know the truth. I don't have to give you any assistance.

12:52

So there's an example of Jesus even in this mockery of a court trial, and he's not offering any assistance there, and there's a good example.

13:04

No self -incrimination. So here's how that moves into where we're at today. When you have our amendments,

13:10

Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and you get into issues like the right against self -incrimination, the right to remain silent, that comes from biblical law.

13:18

Why? Because the principle is you need your witnesses, two to three independent lines of witness and testimony, and no one's supposed to even receive the accusation unless it's on the basis of those evidences and witnesses, which means that I have the right against self -incrimination.

13:31

If you think you have evidence against me, that's your job to produce it. That's what everyone has a right to.

13:38

So that leads us into issues like we have today, which we're going to talk a lot about today. You've got police walking up to people randomly on the street and saying things like,

13:48

And you almost look arrogant today when you say to a police officer who says to you, Well, you become one of those people that just doesn't want to cooperate.

14:04

So then you look like you're not cooperating, but the point is you wouldn't be not cooperating if they weren't illegally asking you for your

14:12

ID. They're not allowed to instigate a situation to make it as though you're not cooperating.

14:20

That's not legal, and that's not how it works. And unfortunately, in a way, there's a sub -law, like a social law, that says that is how it works.

14:35

If you go in to be interrogated or interviewed by the police, you don't need a lawyer.

14:43

You just need to clear it up. And if you're innocent, then you're innocent, and it'll be found out.

14:48

But I think at this point, we're all a little bit tired of hearing that because there's been so many people that have been obviously wrongly accused.

15:00

And then, of course, you see situations. It always stinks when it happens, like in your own city. But obviously, that Phoenix PD officer pulling a gun on a family.

15:21

We're pre -evidence and independent testimony. We're pre -everything at that point.

15:28

At that point, you are a law unto yourself where you decide who gets to have a gun pulled on them and who doesn't earn that.

15:39

I don't know. Can I just say one thing real fast? Somebody watching right now live said,

15:44

I'm sure Jesus would just say comply. Really? Is that what you would tell the apostles when they were told, strictly told, do not preach in his name anymore?

15:57

They were given a legal command. Stop preaching in Jesus' name. This is early on in the book of Acts.

16:03

Peter, John, they're told, stop preaching in Jesus' name. And they go out, and they continue to preach.

16:08

They're brought back again, and they say, didn't we tell you to stop preaching in his name and bring his blood upon us?

16:13

And what's Peter say? He says, we must obey God rather than men.

16:19

And they take a beating for Jesus, and they go away from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

16:26

And what they do? They disobeyed the civil magistrates. They disobeyed what was commanded of them, and they continue to preach

16:32

Christ. And so, no, that's not true. Jesus wouldn't say just submit.

16:39

Not if it's contradicting God's law. Not if it's contradicting biblical standards of justice and righteousness.

16:45

Wrong. Now, if you're talking about silly things like carry my baggage, like the

16:51

Roman law of the day, like, you know, you got to carry my bags, like, you know, a mile. And Jesus said, just go with them two miles.

16:57

Like, stupid little laws like that. You know, Jesus, like, you know, carry the Roman soldier's bags.

17:03

If he commandeers you to carry his stuff, what's the big deal about carrying a Roman soldier's bags for him?

17:09

Go the second mile. That kind of stuff, sure, submit to that kind of, you know, silly stuff.

17:14

It's not a matter of injustice. But when you're talking about God's law being violated, human beings, image bearers of God being violated, their rights being violated, then you must obey

17:27

God rather than men. And this does impact us. It does actually affect us in dramatic ways.

17:34

Give me an example. Go ahead and play this now, guys. You guys feel free to jump in, stop me whenever you want. Here's a good example of this actually impacting us.

17:42

This is us. You can find this video. It's under abusive cop, pastor shuts down officer.

17:48

It's on Apologia Studios channel, and it's us outside of the abortion mill in Tempe.

17:56

Now, you need to know that the Tempe police and some attorneys in Tempe have actually coordinated and tried to work together to shut down our ministry outside of the abortion mill.

18:09

You need to know this, that we have government employees, agencies, working together to try to shut down the work of Apologia Church in saving the lives of these children and preaching the gospel outside the abortion mill.

18:21

We have one Christian brother who had his property stolen by the governments, stolen by the governments, and he was ultimately charged with a crime.

18:30

What was the crime? It's that he used amplification. He used amplification outside of a

18:35

Planned Parenthood to get his voice over to them. He used it in a public area. He used it the way he was supposed to use it.

18:42

It has already been agreed upon by the Supreme Court and by a federal court of appeals that we are allowed to use amplification as part of our free speech rights.

18:54

We're on a public sidewalk. We're using it exactly the way we're supposed to, but the local government actually violated his rights, stole his property, and charged him with a crime for doing what?

19:05

Amplifying his voice so the women could hear it far away. They didn't have a testing device.

19:11

No, they didn't. They were supposed to. You could say, well, disturbing the peace is a law, but you have to test.

19:18

You have to be able to test and show that someone is going over a certain decibel level for them to be breaking a law that includes loudness.

19:27

And he wasn't saying mean and hateful things. He wasn't trying to incite a riot.

19:33

He was simply trying to save the lives of our pre -born neighbors. That's right. By the way, we saved a child this morning at a

19:39

KCA Women's Center, so we did save a child this morning. So that work is very, very vital, very necessary, and I wanted to say that we knew this was going to happen.

19:47

We knew Tempe PD was working against us and is working against us to this day.

19:54

They are. Thankfully, by God's grace, we have inside information, people who are on the inside of Tempe that tell us everything that goes on in there, and we know about private meetings that have been had.

20:04

We know about conversations that have taken place to try to get me arrested. We've had conversations happening about coming to my house to pick me up, all those different things.

20:14

And they couldn't do it, because we're the ones that are within the bounds of the law. But we knew that they were going to come and try to arrest us or cause problems for us, so we went prepared.

20:25

We went with the law. We went with the Supreme Court ruling, Federal Court of Appeals ruling.

20:31

This is just ironclad. It's just no way around it. You had to protect yourself from the person whose job it is to uphold the law and protect the citizens.

20:41

Right, exactly. So they're supposed to uphold these rights that we have, and we knew they were coming to violate them.

20:48

So we were prepared this day. We were live -streaming when this happened, and we had all the stuff in our hands.

20:54

We had the city rules in terms of noise ordinances. We had the Federal Court of Appeals, Supreme Court, all that stuff.

21:01

We had it all in our hands. Police showed up. I'm going to go ahead and play it for you guys so you guys can hear some of the conversation and why it is important to know the law,

21:09

God's law, how that affects today's law that's still hanging by a thread, and how I think we can respond to it.

21:15

I got to see. I need my

21:23

ID. So he walks up to me. I don't know him. He doesn't know me. He walks up, says, can

21:29

I talk to you for a moment? Sure. And he says, can I have your ID? Now, question.

21:35

Why do you need somebody's ID that you've just met? Would it be weird for me to walk up to a stranger on the street and say, excuse me, may

21:43

I have your ID, please? What right do I have to ask for someone's ID? And then someone says, oh, no, no, this is a police officer.

21:51

Okay, fantastic. So it's a person that's supposed to enforce what? The law, which means that a police officer should know better than anybody else that there are laws against unlawful search and seizure.

22:03

In order for you to get information from me, to get things from me, you have to have suspicion of a crime that I have committed and I'm in the process of committing or am about to commit.

22:17

So police officers really don't have any place asking somebody for their identification unless, of course, there is a crime that they suspect they have articulable suspicion of a crime that has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

22:33

So when he walks up and he says, ID, please, the question is, what law have I broken?

22:39

Right. It's a fair question. What law have I broken? Because what happens is you give your

22:44

ID, they don't charge you with anything, but they do write your name down.

22:50

They make a record. Exactly. And so if it happens five more times, then all of a sudden we have a troublemaker on our hands.

22:57

Do you want to know, do you want to know the best, I'm so glad you said that. The best part of this conversation right now is when people say, just give him the

23:05

ID. You know what happened in court? They're not just looking at your name and then being like, forget about that. You know what happened in court with Stephen?

23:11

We were in court with Stephen. And you know what they did? What the attorney pulled, because she wanted the worst punishment for Stephen, she wanted him to be punished to be made an example of.

23:22

What she pulled in her closing statement in terms of your honor, you need to punish him harshly.

23:28

She pulled this out. She said, we have a record of all these street checks where we got

23:35

Stephen's ID, and it was a, it was. We gave him a warning. It was a long history.

23:41

That's right. Exactly. Not breaking the law. They don't have to put that in there. It was a long history. And they brought up, she brought up every date and every example of where Stephen, cause he's a, he's just such a sweet man.

23:52

He just gave over his ID. Now I know that when they come with these street checks, they're not just going, just checking your name.

23:59

They're making a police record. And when he's asking for my identification, he's going to make a police record.

24:08

Jeff Durbin is going down there as he was talked to, and we gave him a warning. And then the next time they come back, they go, oh, look, lo and behold.

24:16

You've had warnings before. We've already warned you a bunch of times about this. So let's go ahead and throw some cuffs on him and let's arrest him.

24:22

We're talking about. That's illegal activity.

24:34

Sound amplification is illegal? Yeah, I can show you. Disturbing somebody's peace.

24:44

Yeah, that's been ruled on. No, don't, don't give me the law.

24:49

Just if I could get your name would be great. Is that, is that just not rich?

24:56

Just so just rich. Don't, don't give me the law. Just give me your name. This is why this matters when we say don't talk to the police because we need to uphold standards of justice that go beyond this momentary conflict on the streets.

25:17

There's something that has to rule over this police officer and myself. There's something that we both have to be standing on that is ultimately above us both as a standard.

25:27

Because in these momentary conflicts, whether it's a situation where a cop is pulling a gun on somebody because they think they stole something from a store, whatever the case may be, we need justice, law that is above us, that that protects us.

25:47

And in a case like this, you have this police officer outside of the abortion mill who is actually abusing his authority in his position.

25:56

Because I had not committed a crime. We were not committing a crime. But somebody from the neighborhood says we don't like what we're hearing.

26:04

But what's been ruled on already by the Supreme Court and the Federal Court of Appeals is that you cannot shut down free speech because A.

26:12

you can hear it or B. you don't like the message. So there's no use of having free speech if people are going to be able to say you're disrupting my peace because I don't want to hear it or I don't like your message.

26:26

So the Supreme Court, Federal Court of Appeals has already said in terms of justice, free speech means free speech.

26:31

If you're in public like this and you're utilizing your free speech, then you're fine.

26:38

Now, of course, it's different. I can't walk into somebody's front yard in their private neighborhood, stand on their property, and start screaming into their window and say free speech.

26:47

It's like there's a context to that. You're in somebody's neighborhood on their property, big difference.

26:53

But if you're in public, in the public square, free speech. And so this police officer says just give me your

26:59

ID. So some people have seen this video and they're saying, Jeff, why don't you just give him your ID? And the answer I think we've already answered is because I didn't violate the law.

27:06

He's abusing his authority and his power, and it's an issue of justice. It's an issue of justice.

27:13

I want to know why, and this is where we kind of need to reinvestigate our thinking on this.

27:21

And I get that there are people who are anti -cop that are instantly disrespectful to police officers, that are just instantly jumped down the throat.

27:33

You know what I mean? I'm not advocating for that. But we do need to rethink the idea that you're the troublemaker in this situation.

27:41

Because you actually didn't break any laws. It would be one thing even if they had brought a decibel reader out there and said, hey, you're this and this over the whatever.

27:53

They had brought you any indication that you had done something wrong. But I think the problem is that because he's a police officer, because he's in a position of authority that deserves a level of respect and he has a difficult job, a difficult, dangerous job, that you're automatically the troublemaker in the situation.

28:15

But his job is not to comparatively, compared to himself, point out who all the troublemakers are in the world.

28:26

And it's certainly not, well, if you're not a cop, then you're at fault. But I think that it's unfortunate we see a video like this and we instantly think, well, why is

28:39

Jeff causing problems? But our point is you weren't causing any problems. You weren't violating the law.

28:45

You weren't being rude to him by not giving him your ID because it's not polite to give someone your

28:51

ID. That's not a nicety that we observe in our culture. I'm not just handing it over to people.

28:58

So we need to rethink, I'm not saying you need to be anti -cop. This is not about cop versus Jeff Durbin.

29:07

You really need to be able to look at this situation and say, is Jeff really doing anything wrong?

29:13

You're not doing anything wrong, so what is this interaction accomplishing? I was just going to say, there was already a situation, too, with the

29:25

Tempe Police Department, remember, where the same thing happened. They asked for your ID. You said no because you hadn't committed a crime.

29:33

You were there for that. They lied to you and said you've been accused of a crime, so you gave them your

29:38

ID, but they lied. They didn't have anything. That's behind all this.

29:43

You already have an incident where they've given you a warning illegally, where they lied to you. This would just be, like you said, another example.

29:49

Right. Pastor Luke was there for that. We were outside of the Tempe Planned Parenthood when it was further up north.

29:55

There was an abusive police officer who was there. He had been there a number of times trying to abuse members of Apologia Church.

30:03

That is just a fact. He was abusive. He came on this one morning, this one lovely morning, where there were no witnesses there except for Pastor Luke and myself.

30:14

They asked for my ID. I said, have I committed a crime? They said no. I said, if I'm not being accused of a crime,

30:21

I don't really want to make a record. I don't want to give you my ID. No, thank you, though. I appreciate what you guys do.

30:28

What happened after that is this cop got in my face and basically threatened me and said, if you don't give up your

30:33

ID, what did he say? He said he was going to hurt me? It was something physical.

30:39

I don't remember. He definitely made some sort of threat. He made a threat to me, and then he was saying he was going to take me to jail.

30:44

I said, okay, so you are accusing me of a crime. He said, yes, I'm accusing you of a crime. I said, okay, based upon that,

30:50

I'll give you my ID because you're accusing me of a crime. I give them my ID. They make a street record.

30:56

I was like, okay, so what crime am I being accused of? He was like, nothing. I gave them my

31:01

ID. They just wanted to make the record. We've had this experience before where police officers are abusing their authority.

31:09

This man was actually quite pleasant. He was a good man. I'll go ahead and play.

31:14

I actually felt bad for him. You can see later on.

31:19

It was clear that he was doing what his superior was forcing him to do. You could tell he was like,

31:26

I think he may have even said, I don't really want to do this. I'm sorry. He had to do it. When I said,

31:31

I don't have to give you my ID, he said, I can ask you, but you don't have to give it to me. He even knew the law.

31:36

He can ask for it all he wants, but I don't have to give it to him. I'm just asking why you need my name.

31:42

I told you why. Are you arresting me or charging me with a crime? Not at this point.

31:49

The state law of Arizona says you can't ask for my ID unless I'm being charged with a crime. I am in the process of investigating a crime.

31:58

Okay. You just ignored that. So there you go, right there. In terms of biblical law, I'm in the process of investigating the crime, so he takes me as the supposedly guilty party, and he says,

32:08

I'm in the process of investigating a crime, so I need you to help me investigate. Biblical law says what?

32:14

No. Because if I'm truly guilty, you don't need my assistance.

32:21

Right? Like, if I've committed a crime, there's evidence, there's eyewitnesses, there's DNA, there's video camera footage, whatever the case may be, you don't need my assistance.

32:32

If I'm the guilty party, then I don't have to self -incriminate because you already have the evidence and witness.

32:37

So that's what's so peculiar about what he says is law enforcement, where he says I'm in the process of investigating a crime, but I'm supposedly the guilty party.

32:48

So I'm supposed to self -incriminate, and you might want to say, okay, so biblical law, I can see, would be opposed to that sort of interaction.

32:56

But how about our current law? Are we protected in that way? Well, Fourth Amendment.

33:02

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

33:11

Shall not be violated. And no warrant shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

33:24

What's the point there? You've got to have a warrant. How do you get a warrant? You have a judge who receives evidence, witness, and testimony and based upon proof the judge says because of this proof

33:39

I think the person could be guilty so I'm going to issue a warrant from the bench that you now have permission to take from that person their houses, papers, effects, search, all that stuff.

33:50

But what's the process there? There's a judicial process that protects justice, preserves justice where somebody makes an accusation law enforcement goes

34:02

I think that Joy's guilty I think that she did something, I think I have proof so the law enforcement has to go to a judge and the judge has to go is this cop being vindictive?

34:14

Is this a setup? Is this really just? So the judge says go ahead and give me the evidence where's the witness, where's the evidence?

34:23

Based upon all of that evidence and that witness I think maybe Joy we should bring her in for this

34:29

So here's the warrant issued and now I got pulled over one time and a cop asked for my

34:39

ID just because my car and basic appearance matched the description of someone they were looking for Really?

34:50

I mean I gave him my ID but he also by the time he took my

34:59

ID was fairly certain because of my numerous very indicating tattoos that I was not the person they were looking for but I mean

35:13

So the point is in terms of searches and seizures very

35:19

Christian law in front of you right here in this fourth amendment comes from the biblical law against self -incrimination against warrantless searches and seizures you need two to three independent witnesses all those things so when a police officer on the street walks up to the accused and says you start answering some questions right now for me we say don't talk to the police if that cop had said

35:44

I'm going to need you to follow me to the police department and we're going to need to sit down and interview

35:49

I would be like no here's what you need to do say it respectfully you need to go and present your evidence and witness before a judge that is what they have to do that's the law we're not causing any trouble it's what you have to do to work within the confines of the law the issue is that we have had people who who are for whatever nice reason very compliant and have thought

36:19

I can make it easier I can make it the cops day a little bit easier by just going in and clearing this up and sometimes there's no problem but sometimes there is and like famous cases like the

36:38

Central Park Five it seems like we have a documentary coming out every six months about someone that walked into an interview room completely sure they were just here to clear it up and then they end up confessing to something that they didn't do that it will later come out through the proper evidence, eyewitness, all that once it finally gets to that stage that it should have been there in the beginning according to God's law you find the vindication they're innocent, all those things because it was lost at the beginning it's happening at the tail end because what we say today in modern criminal justice theory is like let's get them and we'll work it out let's grab them and let's work it out whereas biblical law doesn't even allow that to get started it says no no if I'm guilty then there are channels to figure that out and it doesn't require a channel of me assisting you and so when we say don't talk to the police we're saying biblical law would say against self -incrimination and we're saying that our fourth and fifth amendments protect against that sort of a thing so don't talk to the police and by the way some people

37:56

I'm seeing some stuff in the comments we're not saying that if a cop pulls you over don't talk to him we're not saying we're speaking more in the instance of like in an interview interrogation situation you don't need to divulge any more information than you need to so I'm not saying if a police officer pulls you over for a traffic violation you turn your head the opposite way and pretend he's not there

38:26

I got you for speeding here's all you need to say don't give any more details just say

38:34

ID, insurance I'd like to go ahead and sign my ticket please if he says hey where are you going you can say respectfully

38:40

I really appreciate you but that's really none of your business that's really none of your business there's no need to unnecessarily clear things up at all just give the information that you're supposed to give remember in Australia we saw what this looks like in an unjust society remember we were waiting for somebody and the cops were literally walking up and down the street and just grabbing people they thought looked shady and they were like doing like full pat -downs and like questioning them and they didn't do anything they were just walking down the sidewalk we asked the guy and he was like I just was walking he said they do this to me all the time because he had tattoos and he looked like a drug dealer and I totally forgot about that the point is they just stopped him and so some people say like well if he looks like he's up to no good maybe he's up to no good but that's not how the law works

39:39

God's law does not allow you to treat people like that up to no good isn't even a violation of the law you need to be able to prove crime!

39:48

want to talk about the Central Park 5 here's a group of kids that appear to be up to no good and there were kids in the park that night that were attacking people and robbing people but even in that instance

40:02

I mean you're talking about the difference between I mean a physical assault is an awful thing but it's not the same charge as a brutal rape and assault and robbing someone is one charge but it's completely different from a brutal rape and assault it's not just like I just feel like we are misunderstanding a lot here we need to really rethink before we go to that I was just going to tell what happened to me yesterday real quick because that's going to get me here so hang on to it you guys need to hear this this will irk you when you say it doesn't matter it matters it really does matter it will matter to you especially when you look like our friends over here that just walked in all tatted up and everything else believe it or not it will matter then if you care about other image bearers of God if you meet the basic description of a suspect it will matter to you that's exactly right so Luke's going to tell you his story right now about going to the

41:05

Hoover Dam so the fourth amendment came from the Christian worldview it came from biblical standards of law and justice that's where it came from so praise

41:16

God for his law and the fourth amendment the fifth amendment I'm going to read it to you it says you're like I don't know what that means well here is what it is nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation so it's a lot packed in there but so much in terms of I don't have to help you if you're accusing me or you suspect me of a crime

42:13

I don't need to participate in this whole process of you trying to figure it out as a matter of fact

42:19

I can keep my mouth shut the entire time through an entire court proceeding and just have my lawyer do all the talking

42:24

I'm saying nothing I'm saying nothing, why? because I'm innocent I'm saying nothing if you've got proof, if you've got evidence and you're witnesses then you prove it but I don't have to assist you and that's according to God's law and his principles of justice and thank

42:41

God it's in our fourth and fifth amendment so yesterday I was driving back from Nevada and my wife has never seen the

42:51

Hoover Dam or as home school woodpeckers would call it the Hoover Darn stole it from Babylon Bee, my favorite but I was like it used to be like you used to have to drive over it but now they have that big fancy bridge so you can bypass it a lot quicker but I was like well let's just drive over it and come back into Arizona it's right there on the border because you've never seen it so we drive down and they now have this checkpoint for everybody and so you pull up and again this one is like big picture whatever, it's not that big of a deal but there's a principle to all of this so you have to roll down all your windows so they can look into your car doesn't matter who you are there's no bomb sniffing dogs around there's no reason if you're going to the dam you have to put your windows down so I do that and then he's like Ian you're going to need to pull over there because I had my truck

43:47

I was like really upset the assumption of guilt

43:54

I had the same conversation with Matthew when we went because I had never been and so when we were coming back

44:00

I did the same thing and he was like you know I work here so I'm all about this topic and I was just going on and on and he was like can we just enjoy the dam please of course my wife's like just calm down and I was like this is ridiculous anyways

44:18

I pull over I get out, I unlock my truck I had to turn my truck off because I had to get my key out and all this, you know, it's super hot so I come, he looks, all that and then

44:29

I close it up and then he goes do you have any weapons or any firearms now here's where it matters none of your business here's why it matters

44:37

I was driving back into Arizona my gun which is on me right now was locked in my console it was locked up in there this brings up a whole other discussion

44:47

I told him no because I'm like I'm not going to get into this I just want to go see this stupid Hoover Darn and leave but if I had been coming the other way if I had been coming from Arizona into Nevada, guess what, my gun would have been out of my hip and I don't know what would have happened the moment

45:03

I get out of my truck and I'm on Nevada side and I have my gun on me, I don't know what would have happened I could have gotten in serious trouble so that's why it matters anyways it brings up a whole other discussion well it is they're searching cars without a warrant that's the key thing over and over and over and over again you want to talk about how many people go see the

45:28

Hoover Dam every day you're talking about that amount every single day of unwarranted searches and yeah they're not allowed to dig through anything but they make you roll your windows down and they're allowed to look into your car and ask questions and you're just going chances are with your family to look at this thing that is patriotic and a part of America's history and all this stuff and you are paying for it and again if I was sitting in my truck if I wouldn't have had to get out to open the back up and I had my gun on me there's no issues but the fact that they make me get out of my truck to open up the back, then all of a sudden there's a potential crime being committed it's all in the name of just protecting us from someone blowing up the

46:17

Hoover Dam which I admit would be horrible and awful and it would affect a lot of things but the assumption is that you were going to blow up the

46:25

Hoover Dam right so what we can't say is because crimes have been committed in the past therefore all of society and culture needs to be treated as though they were guilty ahead of time and we will find out if they're innocent so it's the presumption of guilt and then we will go through a process of discovering whether you're innocent whereas actually biblical law would say it's the presumption of innocence always until we can prove guilt so that's very important the presumption of innocence it came from biblical law even if you want to reject biblical law our current law says that that's right, presumption of innocence nobody really acts like that I'm actually curious what you think about this because I knew this was going to come up so you lied about having a gun

47:14

I knew that question would come up and then someone else said, well Christians shouldn't have guns that one's laughable but the first one,

47:21

I am curious what your thoughts are on that so I want to say that to everybody who wants to get into the gun debate and discussion and biblical law surrounding weapons, we've done plenty of shows on this,

47:32

I would encourage you to go and google search an episode that we did called Guns, Dr.

47:38

Greg Bonson and Lady Bits Guns, Dr. Greg we were bold, weren't we then?

47:44

Guns, Dr. Greg Bonson and Lady Bits it's from 3 -19 of 2013 man, we've been doing this for a long time so that's an entire show we did on what the biblical worldview would teach about weapons

47:55

I want to just say that if you believe that Christians should not own weapons and guns and those sorts of things,

48:03

I want to say that your understanding of the biblical worldview is very very, very lacking and I want to say that you are going to come face to face with a lot of just grand difficulties in scripture in terms of weapons and God telling his people to get weapons, gather weapons, to use weapons to defend the innocent with weapons and it's not just police forces and government agencies, it's individuals being called to do such things and so I want to say abandon liberalism and liberal idiocy and let's get ourselves back to the word of God as the foundation so that's in terms of weapons go listen to some of those episodes listen to the biblical argumentation, go to the text themselves and think about it so that's a great episode

48:51

I think, but the next question is if you do have examples in scripture of heroes people who are called heroes in the

49:00

Bible people who do not give all the information to law enforcement that would lead to injustice or to hurting other people, there are instances in scripture where we are even given examples and praise to people who actually resist tyrannical government authorities,

49:20

I do not believe that the officers had any right to ask you those questions were you threatening somebody?

49:26

did you appear to be threatening somebody? did they have a right to assume your guilt? I may have had a mean look on my face yeah

49:32

I know that but did they have the right to assume your guilt and also what right did they have so here's the point our amendments, 4th amendment says what?

49:43

secure in their persons houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated right, so in other words in order for the police officers and law enforcement to get into Pastor Luke's vehicle and to do the examination and ask those questions, what according to the 4th amendment did they need?

50:02

probable cause, what did they need? supported by oath or affirmation and you needed essentially a warrant, so to ask the questions of Pastor Luke there should have been an assumption of I have evidence of guilt and this is why he needs to be searched, and that should go through the proper channels to get a warrant to search his things and to ask those questions technically speaking,

50:24

Pastor Luke shouldn't have been stopped but if he is stopped, Pastor Luke according to the law of God and our law and our country, should have been able to just smile and say

50:33

I don't answer any questions do you have a warrant? God bless you, like that's really it, like do you have any weapons on you?

50:43

God bless you sir yeah, and I know we've talked a lot about this, the reciprocity of, because I have a concealed carry permit first of all you know, but in order when

50:55

I was going into Nevada, I was like just in case because I don't know what the laws are here, you know in California I know they have like the most asinine laws where you have to have the gun locked up in a separate container, in the trunk separate from the ammo, it's like why even have it at that point, but you know

51:09

I think Nevada is way looser than California so I was like just for the heck of it, just in case I'm just going to lock it up in the center thing it's not easy to get to, you know,

51:17

I wasn't carrying it, you know, so it's just like I'm not even going to, I'm not going to play this game so no,

51:23

I wouldn't consider that I'm not going to lie So, let's see here I think we're running out of time

51:29

Yeah, I know, we didn't even get to the Central Park 5 Alright, so Okay, let's just do a burst on the

51:35

Central Park 5 You want to do that? You think that's good? That's fine Should we do a throwback and play the clip from the old

51:41

Apology Radio episode? Yeah, sorry Somebody said we lost all credibility because we justified breaking the 10th commandment by justifying lying,

51:49

I just, whatever You're going to have a hard time Yeah, I can't with that, reading scripture in terms of well, we've done plenty of episodes on that time -wise here

52:01

Yeah, we don't have to get into it Also, we wouldn't identify ourselves as lunatic sovereign citizens either

52:09

We would identify ourselves as Christians who hold the biblical standards of justice and law, and that's what we would want to appeal to is

52:17

God's standards of justice and righteousness We think image bearers of God should be treated with respect and dignity and love and protection, justice matters to God I think that one of the failures of Western Christianity and the current time that we live in is that we have abandoned, really, the biblical worldview in terms of God's concern for justice, and if you want to know what that looks like,

52:43

God's concern for justice just read Psalm 119 and another passage

52:49

I would encourage you to go read to see God's concern for justice with his people is Isaiah chapter 1 and 2, he actually chastises his people because of their lack of concern for justice and the innocent

53:02

Don't read the comments Don't read the comments I can't

53:07

Just move on I'm going to stop reading the comments The word kill is ratzak and the semantic domain of the word is murder and by the way

53:18

I hope this is helpful to you Go to that passage where God says you shall not kill, and I want you to note that within a few verses of God saying you shall not kill, he tells you to kill somebody who does kill somebody

53:30

Why? Because the semantic domain of the word is murder It's the unjustified taking of innocent human life with malice of forethought, that is what

53:40

God says, you shall not murder, and he does tell the justice system to actually execute somebody who does take somebody's innocent life

53:53

So, alright What are we doing here? We're going to do just a quick burst on the Ok, so There's a show out and it is called

54:05

When They See Us We talked a little bit about this last week We did talk just a bit about it last week and really the point was this in talking about it is that we as Christians ought to have an answer that is meaningful that is rigorous that is coherent, that is biblical for the world when these discussions are happening because when the world is decrying injustice, we want to say on what basis, by what standard do you call that injustice

54:39

Right? First and foremost, if you don't have Jesus, how do you call anything unjust? If you don't have

54:46

God as the ultimate, as the principium, as the reference point, how do you know anything is not just?

54:52

If all we are is bags of biological stuff floating through space, then nothing is unjust

54:57

So the first thing we need to say as Christians is we need to say to the world, why are you decrying things as though there was such a thing as justice?

55:04

You are in the image of God, aren't you? You do know the God that I'm talking about You're reflecting

55:10

Him right now in all this concern for justice, but watch Western Christianity has abandoned the world in such a way as to pretend like Jesus doesn't have all authority in the world today so that when we have all these issues of injustice around us, like these films like When They See Us, Christians in the

55:27

West today oftentimes don't even have a response to say here's how that could have been solved but isn't it amazing that if you would have gone back in our history not very long ago to say our first Supreme Court justice,

55:39

John Jay and you would have asked John Jay the Christian, the missionary, the evangelist this first Supreme Court justice if you would have said

55:48

Dr. Jay what do we look to for justice in our court system?

55:55

He would have said, oh I've quoted from it right here, Leviticus Deuteronomy, right here

56:02

Exodus, right here I've been quoting from it in everything that I'm doing in my legal briefs like that's what

56:07

I'm doing, our first Supreme Court justice would have done that. Now they had answers, our Christian forbearers had answers, men and women, they would have pointed to the law of God as the standard of justice today when we have shows like When They See Us, we have to as Christians start engaging in this conversation in a meaningful way with God's law because it's what gave us all the blessings and goodness in terms of justice around us today that we have today

56:37

Joy, can you give everyone just a quick summary of When They See Us just give a burst if someone wants to see it.

56:44

I haven't seen When They See Us, but I know I've listened to quite a bit of stuff about Central Park 5 over the years and seen documentaries and stuff like that, but basically in April of 1989

57:00

I think, oh yeah, I think I remember thinking I would be about like one month old when this had happened but there was reports of a pack of boys running around Central Park in New York City and they were terrorizing people and I do,

57:22

I mean I do legitimately mean terrorizing people, they were knocking people out, they were assaulting people, robbing people there were people that were hospitalized due to their injuries the big thing that happened is that at about 1 .30am

57:43

the next morning so early the next morning so as the police are responding basically to this event they find a woman that's been brutally assaulted and raped, they take her to the hospital, she's in a coma for 12 days, she doesn't have memory even when she wakes up of the event that happened and so obviously because of, it was already the police were already taking it very seriously but because of the raised seriousness due to this woman's assault and sexual assault they put more pressure on the people that they had coming in to interrogate, they had brought in, basically at that point they said here is the profile of the boy here are the ages, here is the race of the 30 boys that were running around Central Park allegedly doing these things and so let's bring some people in they brought people in, they interrogated them namely 5 5 boys 5 young African American boys, some of them, most of them under the age of 16

58:58

I think all but one they were interrogated without any legal representation of course and also without their parents which was illegal

59:11

I believe at the time it was 16 like if you were 16 the police could question you obviously that's changed from then until now but so they were illegally interrogated essentially and then so that would have been so the following day it was

59:33

April 19th, the day that they were causing trouble and attacking people on the 20th they started doing interrogations and on the 21st they started recording interrogations and in those interrogations 5 boys confessed none of them ever said

59:53

I raped that woman but they did they indicated that people they were with did do it and it was because they were told that if they gave information to the police that they would be allowed to go and the cops started saying so and so this is what's crazy talking about corroborating stories none of their stories corroborated at all you're talking about they gave their testimony of the event is different members of the group actually committing the rape different locations completely different accounts and a lot of the boys didn't even know each other they didn't meet until they had been arrested one of them only came to be there for his friend and he ended up in jail so when they started saying so and so said that you did it then that's when they started saying oh no at that point it became a matter of here you go they were attempting to comply because they thought they could clear it up because they were innocent because I know we have some mixed feelings about this but in case you were wondering someone was actually convicted of it with DNA evidence and their own confession so these boys absolutely did not do it and I know that people have opinions about them having actually committed crimes that night that was never proven because they were indicted and taken to trial and charged for something they didn't do so if you're really for justice and you really think that they should have received justice for any robberies they may have committed the police also would have had to prove that they were in Central Park at the time they would have had to prove that they were doing that evidence evidence evidence you don't just get to put a bunch of black boys in jail because they fit that profile and someone needed to go down for it no that's not the standard of justice that we follow

01:02:16

God hates that yeah there's he has his word on what happens when someone is falsely accused of crimes and it's not good he's not he

01:02:35

God is infinitely just he and so he hates injustice what you have now is you have a documentary about it some another people there like I said people have a complaint it is it just hush like if you have if you have a complaint about the fact that their potential crimes in Central Park that evening are not discussed in the film you can hush

01:03:02

I'm going to try to say that in a nice way because the this

01:03:09

Netflix series is not about what they did they also could have been the police could have attempted to investigate those crimes but they didn't then they coerced the boys into admitting something that they didn't do then those boys went to jail until they were men most of them and then by the time the man who actually did it confessed and DNA evidence tied it to him the he couldn't be convicted because of statute of limitations so the guy who actually did it was never actually charged with because there's only murder is the only crime you can commit where there's not a statute of limitations so after a certain amount of years pass if you rape someone then you can no longer be charged he confessed a bunch of rapes to that guy he was a serial rapist when he came to Christ that's why he confessed can

01:04:15

I throw a couple scriptures at this in terms of why we should care give you

01:04:22

Proverbs 17 15 he who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous both of them are like an abomination to the

01:04:34

Lord so does this matter to God he says it's an abomination to condemn the righteous to condemn the righteous that's why we should really really care when we're putting people up on charges right we better be darn sure there's a homeschool version darn sure that it is true hush so you better be sure but here's why because God says it's an abomination to condemn the just right to condemn the righteous condemning the innocent is an abomination to God stay far away from a false accusation do not kill the innocent or the just for I will not acquit the guilty exodus 23 7

01:05:21

I mean you can go on and on and on Proverbs 18 5 showing partiality to the wicked is not good nor is depriving the innocent of justice don't deprive the innocent of justice here's the thing western

01:05:32

Christianity we have lost our grip on this central theme in scripture

01:05:37

God is just his throne is established on justice

01:05:43

God cares about justice he hates injustice why is it humanists atheists secularists today are the ones producing all the content on injustice and how they're decrying injustice and they're the ones that are with the loudest voices when you see like some perverse situation where a police officer abuses some guy on the street right and why is it the secularists are the only ones that are standing up saying hey like this is unjust and this is not right why is that it ought to be

01:06:18

God's people who meek and mild and all the rest are the ones that are speaking righteousness into culture and society and if you say really is that really the role of the church

01:06:29

I would say how about we just look I don't know in one place that Jesus taught us like the Sermon on the

01:06:35

Mount where he says the meek shall inherit the earth that's by the way God's people we're gonna inherit the earth and then he says that you are the salt of the earth salt of the earth the light of the world salt is a preservative it stops things from spoil and decay light it dispels darkness so he says you the church the people of God you're the salt you preserve the world and you light up the darkness that's the role of the people of God in the world so yeah we're supposed to have something to say about these things and when you see these instances where you've got like you know the central park five they got what 54 million is that they were ultimately awarded yeah there were two settlements

01:07:16

I think somewhere around 60 million and one was a few million right so and here's the point look

01:07:26

I'm sure there's a million details that can be talked about with you know when they see us in the central park five and all the rest here's our point with it is that we ought to be the ones speaking

01:07:34

God's standards into that situation saying here's what would have preserved those boys if I could go back in time to those boys using

01:07:43

God's law and our justice system we currently have as the standard

01:07:48

I would have said into their ears the whole time say nothing say nothing nothing literally close your mouth say nothing had been there right like the law requires them to right

01:08:00

I bet they would have said say nothing say nothing except for the one say no boys dad told him the lie he was afraid he threatened the dad right and so then you have you and this is this is this is how we solve the problem of the corrupt interrogation say nothing say nothing if you're guilty if the person is truly guilty no one needs their help right right so you don't need self incrimination like added to it if you're guilty it's going to get proven because there's witnesses and evidence outside of you that's going to go right to you

01:08:36

DNA evidence you've got eyewitnesses you've got video camera footage you've got all the rest so here's the thing if if you're concerned with justice in society you're going to catch the bad guy if they're truly guilty according to God's standards you're going to get the means to get the person found out you don't need their help so when you get these little boys rounded up by the police departments it should actually be no problem for Christians to be able to say the advice to the boys should have been say nothing say nothing well and the reason why the arbitrary standard doesn't work is because at the time obviously it was in New York City there was a racial element and a kid element yes and so you're talking about an entire city slash nation that absolutely knew these boys did it right because they confessed right right but the point is that so our point our point is that this is not our opinion it's not our opinion there even if and you know it's it's a shame ultimately

01:09:43

God has justice if you don't trust that then you will have an issue with even

01:09:49

God's justice here on this earth at times right because you won't always get it the way that you want it or you won't always immediately this this poor woman had to wait she like still suffers permanent damage from the attack she almost died and she had to wait until this man confessed to get justice and even then there was no legal justice especially not according to God's law there's no justice yeah our point here is that it's not it's not our opinion whether or not they were guilty or innocent right our our opinion is that they didn't meet the standards for evidence or testimony and in fact the evidence and testimony that they did receive pointed towards their innocence right not their guilt right and their fourth men rights was violated yeah fourth and fifth and biblical law underneath it is don't receive an accusation unless it's on the basis of two to three independent lines of evidence right witnesses well and then that being said

01:10:51

I hope that it logically follows that if those independent lines of witness and evidence lead to the person's innocence right you don't force them to make them that's right that's right exactly yes that's right it's not just like oh any two to three lines will do any two to three exactly that was one of the things

01:11:08

I want to make the beginning is like just because two or three people say something doesn't mean it's true you just need that as a standard also biblical law says the assumption of innocence always assumption of innocence until there is proof of guilt assume innocence assume innocence that's

01:11:23

God's standard if you don't like it you have to take it up with scripture because that's what God teaches us assume innocence until there is proof of guilt and speaking of delicious things like the law of God let's say thank you to ash

01:11:37

Mattson we love you so much look at her her so delicious she made this thing by hand and it is lovely

01:11:45

I think she used your I think she used I think you were the inspiration for this well thank you

01:11:52

I think you were no this doesn't look this looks like you I would say the right color yeah I could see your eyes

01:11:57

I could see your face there that's you that's you although that beard you're bearding it's not that long anymore no it used to be so delicious ash thank you so much we love you thank you for this amazing gift we're going to put it up in the studio as soon as the show's over we're going to go put it up and and it'll be there forever forever yeah that's right all right hey thank you guys all so much for watching today

01:12:22

I hope this was a blessing to you all hope it was an encouragement go back listen again

01:12:28

I'm sure more can be said we've done lots of shows on these discussions in much more detail all right guys so I'm Jeff they call me the ninja that's

01:12:38

Luke the bear peace out we're Calvinist thank you that's joy the girl go get more at apologyastudios .com

01:12:45

listen guys if this has been a blessing to you guys if our ministry is a blessing to you at all go to apologyastudios .com

01:12:51

partner with us in our ministry sign up for all access you get every TV show every after show

01:12:56

Apology Academy by the way Dr. White is doing another class tonight yes he is on church history so if you guys want to learn about church history from Dr.

01:13:04

James White Pastor James you guys can get it at all access at apologyastudios .com you got to sign up he's doing another one tonight so go over there sign up right now partner with us in this ministry guys all that God is doing through our ministry

01:13:17

God is doing through all of us working together in this ministry so sign up for all access guys