Pastor vs. Moral Nihilist

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00:00

Well, I appreciate that. So when you say Lutheran, and you thought it meant to be a

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Christian, it meant you try to be a good person, do you know that that's not what the gospel teaches about how a person is a

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Christian? Well, like I said, there's different ways you can... I think it is possible to interpret the gospel in different ways for each person.

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So, you don't think God has the ability to speak clearly enough to get across a point? I think if he is real, he definitely has the ability to do that, but I think he has left open to interpretation in the gospel.

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So am I open to interpret your words in whatever way I please? Like if I just... if someone said, Hey, what did he say to you?

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Sorry, I'm Jeff by the way. What's your name? I'm Josh. If Josh. If somebody said, hey, what did Josh say to you just now?

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And I said, Josh just told me he's an alien and he's just visiting. That's my interpretation. Would I be able to do that?

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Would you want me to do that? No, well, I mean, but I think there are definitely different ways to interpret how you should live through Christ.

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While the words might be like concrete, then they just give you the guidelines how to live through Christ in different ways.

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Well, what if Jesus says, unless you believe I am, which is the name of the eternal

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God, you'll die in your sins. That's what he said. Do you believe him? I think you might die in your sins, but I don't know if I believe in hell.

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What if Jesus said there's a hell? When Jesus talked about hell, he was referring to a place in the city where there was always eternal flame.

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Gehenna. Yeah, exactly. That's what I've always interpreted hell as being, simply talking about that, like it's a bad place.

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However, I do not think an all -loving, all -powerful God would ever send someone to hell. What Jesus actually says, if something caused you to sin, your eye caused you to sin, pluck it out, throw it from you, cut off your hand, throw it from you, for it's better for you to enter life maimed than to spend essentially eternity in everlasting torment.

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So he believed in eternal life and eternal torment. Do you disagree with him? Yeah, I cannot fathom an all -loving

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God doing that to people. So you don't believe God is just? Not really, if he's condemning someone to eternal, eternal torture.

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Forgive me, I said that wrong. What I mean is, you believe that God is love, but you don't believe that he is just.

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That he's just, or a just God, or is angry with sin, you don't believe that? I don't think sentencing someone to eternity, like for all of time, to torture, can be just.

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Okay, so you don't really, what would you say in terms of what the Bible says about God's holiness?

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That he is holy and we are sinners. Do you think our sin is a big deal to God? Yeah, I think it does matter to him if we're real.

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However, I still cannot separate that from his all -powerful love. Like, love is the most powerful thing in this entire world.

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And God's love, if I was a Christian, I'm not anymore, but I would interpret that as being greater than all of the forces on this planet.

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Hate, no matter what. Justice, it trumps everything. God's love trumps everything. Who says? You now reject, and thank you for talking to me, but you reject scripture now.

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You reject God's revelation. You reject the message of Jesus. On what basis is love anything more than some kind of indigestion or excitable feeling?

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What is love? Well, I looked at scripture differently than you did. But you don't believe scripture anymore. So now that you've rejected

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God, what gives you the right to tell me love matters at all?

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Because love is a real thing. Who says? You? No, scientists have proven that there's definitely a temple in your brain.

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Oh, okay, Josh. So what you're saying is that there's chemical processes happening in the brain.

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So human beings who are the results of evolutionary processes that didn't have us in mind to get here, have chemicals going off in their brain.

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And those chemicals have some meaning? Yeah, of course they do. So chemical fizz happening, neurological responses, have some objective basis to them?

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Some moral basis to them? I think they have some basis. How about the chemical feelings that science can demonstrate through neurological responses that lead a person to rape and mutilate a child?

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What's wrong with those chemical responses? Why are you picking one chemical response over another? What do you mean, why am I picking one chemical response over another?

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Well, there's chemical responses happening neurologically that lead the man to rape, murder, and dismember the child.

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There's chemical responses happening there. You're saying that the chemical fizz that leads to feelings of love is the most important fizz there is.

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But I'm saying that the fizz that happened to murder and mutilate the child is also neurological fizz.

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You say this fizz is better. Why? Why is love better than accident violence? Why is the neurological response leading to feelings of love better than the feelings that led to dismembering a child?

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Remember, you rejected scripture. You don't believe we're specially made, created by God, you're not a Christian. So I would assume that means that now you've abandoned that world view and now you're accepting a naturalistic, materialist view of reality, which means that you and I are just random results of evolutionary processes.

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Your ancestors were bacteria. Yeah. And you're saying that this feeling coming from fizz is important?

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Yeah, I think all feelings are important because then they're put into action in the real world. That's what gives them the actual value.

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So the feeling that led to rape, how about that one? I think that's a bad feeling. Who says?

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We as a society do, but also personally, we all have the capacity to feel suffering and stuff and because that action causes suffering, that action is wrong.

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So? Do you eat animals? No. You don't eat animals? No, I think it's wrong.

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Okay, so you have decided that it's wrong to kill what?

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What is wrong to kill and hurt? Stuff that has the complex capacity to actually feel pain and suffering.

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That makes it immoral to cause harm to that thing. So the inflicting of harm is wrong? Yes. It's always wrong?

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Yeah, I think you should not inflict harm. You should avoid inflicting harm at any time. So what if a man rapes and mutilates a child, should we inflict harm on him?

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I think there should be some sort of penalty for that. What should the penalty be for it? Well, first off,

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I believe in restorative justice. I don't believe in the prison system because I think it only creates more crime society.

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Well, you and I are on the same page with that. I think we can strive to be better as humans than that. So I would seek some sort of restorative justice route.

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I'm not sure how that would look like. So you have no answer for, in terms of justice, what that would look like? Well, do you know what restorative justice is?

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Yeah, I know what it is. Well, then you know my answer. Well, when you say restorative justice, you believe that ultimately you can inflict some harm on somebody.

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You can essentially have something happen to them that leads to restoration.

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Some justice is enforced to lead to restoration of the human being, right?

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Yeah. But you don't have an answer in terms of... I'll be on redemption. Redemption? Where are you getting these categories?

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You're talking like a Christian. Well, yeah. Well, that's my Christian upbringing. Right, right. You can't abandon it.

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Yeah, Josh, here's the thing. Restorative justice is seeking a mediation between you and the party you have harmed. Talking to them, letting them know how it has impacted you.

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What about the man who raped and murdered several women and buried their bodies underground?

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He can't reconcile with them. Then he would reconcile with the community. So he reconciles.

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So there's no justice in terms of the victims. Perhaps. What I would say is this. What I would say is this.

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God has spoken to the issue of justice. And he says that if you kill another image -bearer of God unjustly, you deserve to die.

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I say kill the rapist, kill the murderer. Because that's justice. Objective justice that's outside of myself.

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And here's the thing, Josh. It's true whether I like it or not. It's true whether I feel it or not. It's God's own character and justice on display.

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But you believe now that you've evolved from lower bacterial forms in a universe that didn't have you in mind.

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And you evolved to get to this place through random mutations. So you're not any different than the dirt, the tree, the stool, the atoms that form those things and molecules that form those things together.

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You're not different from them. Why do you think you are? Because I have the capacity to feel. So if something feels, it has value?

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The capacity to suffer is why we should not cause harm. That's what I'm getting back to. Yeah, I think that is what gives it a lot of value.

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Or at least gives us and animals some amount of value. Is that they have the capacity to suffer. We all know because we can experience suffering that it is a hurtful thing to feel.

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So therefore it is wrong to cause suffering to things that can feel it. There's a lot of people that like to cause suffering.

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I'm aware of that. What's your argument with them? They're random results of evolution just like you. What makes you think you can tell them what to do?

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They like it. It makes them feel good. Like who are you talking about? Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin.

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They liked it. I think there's a lot of factors that contribute to people getting to that point in their life.

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But they like it. They're other random results of evolutionary process. Remember, you've abandoned Jesus now.

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You don't have image of God. You don't have ultimate value, beauty, meaning, purpose. You have random mutations now just spread out across the universe and they're all fizzing different chemical responses.

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You don't like to inflict pain and I appreciate that. And I think that's because you're in the image of God, you know. But they liked it.

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It made them feel good. And there's lots of people behind bars right now that like to inflict pain.

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What's your argument with them? Like I said before, there's a lot of factors that contribute to them getting to that point.

09:42

Preach the good news. Preach the good news to the rapist. What do you mean? Preach the good news of your world view to the rapist.

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Preach the good news to Hitler. Remember, you don't have Jesus anymore. So there's no ultimate purpose, value or meaning.

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You're a cosmic accident. Preach the good news of atheism to him. Okay, well like I'm saying, there are factors that contribute to them getting to that point.

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You address those factors first. What's wrong with the factors? Inequality in life.

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What now? Racism. Wait, wait, wait. You're acting like a Christian now. You're acting like those are image bearers of God and that we're all the same.

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Like racism, racism is a wicked abomination. But that's a Christian world view. Right?

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We all come from the same parents in the Christian world view. In your world view, it's random mutations. I don't know.

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Race is not a real construct at all in my world view or in any actual world view that's smart.

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Race is a social construct. No, but what I'm saying is that you're saying that we should all be seen as equals.

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But there are tribes of white people and black people and yellow people that think that their color tribe is more valuable than the other.

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So preach the good news to them. Tell them how we're all the same. Okay. I will. No, I'm asking you to tell me your position.

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Well, I would go to why they think that they are so different from each other. They say, our tribe is more important than yours.

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We want to kill you and eat you. Happens today. Still happens today. What's the basis of that though? Why do they think that way?

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Their position? Yes. Let's say they come from a different perspective than you.

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They weren't raised in a Christian background. They were raised, say, in a jungle where it was survival of the fittest.

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My tribe needs to overcome yours through might. Might for right. I would leave those people alone and let them do their own business.

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But what makes their morality different than yours or better than yours or worse than yours? I think all morality is objective.

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It's objective? Yes. Okay. So help me see that. I am a moral nihilist. Okay, hold on now.

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You said two opposing things. You said all morality is objective. That means it's true outside of me.

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Right? It's true anyways. Everyone's open to interpret it whatever way they want. But you said moral nihilism.

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Nihilism is the idea that there is no ultimate meaning or purpose or morality. Morality is a myth.

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Yeah, if morality is objective then there isn't really any purpose at all to morality if it's just some sort of myth. You think you mean subjective?

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Subjective. Yeah, objective means it's true anyways. Subjective is it's your feeling. Yeah, I believe in morally subjectivity and moral nihilism.

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Morals don't really exist. So you don't have an argument with Hitler? Solely because we make them. You said free Palestine on your shirt.

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Yes. But morality is subjective. So why wear the shirt? Yeah, someone would do this certainly. Because from my moral perspective the occupation by Israel in Palestine is wrong.

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Is it wrong to oppress other bags of protoplasm? Yes. Says who? Josh? I do, yes.

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I don't care what Josh says. I'm another bag of protoplasm. I fizz differently than you. Well that's unfortunate. I'm sorry you have that view.

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Do you see how your position has no moral punch to it? Because it's subjective.

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It's your feelings. It's your emotions. I would once again go back to the point of suffering but like I said I'm a moral nihilist so I know that it doesn't really matter.

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So why are you standing here? Because you're not a moral nihilist. You're made in the image of God, Josh. You know the truth.

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You know Jesus is who he says he is. You know his word is true. You've abandoned him. And now you live in this world of just mishmash, chaos.

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By the way, Josh, I believe you. By the way, you said something that really resonated with me. You said the prison system you think is unjust.

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I believe that. Putting image bearers of God behind cages is unjust. But see, I have a basis as a

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Christian to believe that because I have an objective standard. You just said there is no morality that matters. So what's the justification for blocking someone up when there is no justification in this world?

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I don't agree with it. I think it's wicked. I think taking image bearers of God and putting them into a cage is wicked. I believe in God's law that says if somebody steals they have to pay it back.

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If somebody murders and rapes, they die. Well, I disagree with that.

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I think we can always seek better as humans. Well, remember that you're a moral nihilist. There is no standards at all.

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You've given them all up. So your disagreement is a moot point, right? It doesn't matter. Not really. It is.

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I can still think that there are some things that are bad. You can never fully detach yourself once you have that moral view in your life at one point.

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You can never fully detach yourself from completely believing in moral law. But that's your position, Josh. Josh, that's your position.

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You said there is no meaning. Yeah, there isn't. So why are you standing here? Because you know it's not true,

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Josh. Josh, I love you. And you know that what you're saying makes no sense. I'm not trying to get one over on you.

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I care about you. We just met, but you're in the image of God. You know the story of Jesus. By the way,

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I want to say this. This is so important, Josh. I said, what does it mean to be a Christian? I wasn't trying to get you in a corner and trap you.

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I was trying to say, did he even understand what it meant? And when you said try to be a good person, it sounds like you are a product, and I don't mean that offensively, of a cultural idea of Christianity.

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But what you had was not the gospel. See, the Bible doesn't teach that I'm saved or right with God through my good deeds, my works, my obedience.

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It's solely through what Christ did to save me. I turn to him in faith and he redeems me.

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He acquits me. He gives me salvation and eternal life as a gift. Josh, you never knew him.

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I don't mean that to offend you. I mean that I want you to know him. And I want you to think about something. By the way, the free

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Palestine, I understand what you're saying. I understand that you have feelings of moral indignation over one group of people oppressing another.

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That's what you feel. But Josh, when you abandoned Jesus, you gave that up. I disagree with that.

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I think you find human reasoning for things. Josh, but human reasoning... Well, let me ask you this way. Just take this as a very loving probe, okay?

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When you say human reasoning, laws of logic, what are they?

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In atheism, what are they, Josh? Nothing, really. They're just stuff we make up. Did you just see it? Josh, please tell me you saw that.

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Please. Think about what you just said. You said, when I asked you about, like, morality and everything, you said, it's just human reasoning.

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And then when I said to you, but what are laws of logic? And you said, yeah, we just make it up. Do you see the circle you've gotten yourself into?

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Yes, but you cannot detach yourself from that circle when you've already entered it in the first place because from the moment you were born, you were told there is some sort of morality in this world.

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It isn't really true, but you have that view from the moment Why are you wearing this shirt? Because it's impossible to detach myself from that view, though.

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It isn't true. How about this? I'll wear a shirt that says, enslave Palestine. Now, I don't agree with that, but your position, you just said, is that there's no real distinction between the two.

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It doesn't really matter. Enslave Palestine, free Palestine. You know God, Josh. You know

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Him. You do. You know Him. You turned away from Him and now you've grabbed a hold of stuff that's not going to help you.

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It's not helping you, Josh. I believe that deep down you know the God that I'm talking about. You feel this passionate about this issue of free

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Palestine because you're in the image of God and you know that it's wrong to oppress other image -bearers of God. You haven't been able to shake your

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Christianity loose completely. Of course not. But you never knew Christ truly to begin with and that's why we're here today.

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It's not to win debates. It's not to fight with you. It's to tell you this. Listen, the message of Jesus isn't what you thought, Josh. It wasn't about you somehow knowing about this guy named

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Jesus who did these things and you've got to be a better person to climb your way to Him. It's that He came to save sinners.

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He is holy and you said something in the beginning, Josh. I'll just say this last thing. I don't want to dominate the conversation, but you said the idea of hell.

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I can't accept the idea of eternal punishment, but to think about two things. One, is you already gave up moral judgments.

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You said it doesn't matter so there is nothing wrong with someone spending eternity punished because there is no moral judgments. Yeah. Subjectively.

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Yeah, exactly. So it's subjective. Two, here's the thing. Here's the thing you're missing. You never caught the idea that God is not just love.

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He is. I think better than you think He is, but He's also just and He's holy and we are sinners and we've offended

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Him and we hate Him. We run away from Him. We construct these complicated world views that are just a mess and we don't want the knowledge of God and so that we don't know how holy

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God is. So when we hear of His eternal punishment we think that seems excessive but that just shows that we don't understand

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His holiness and the gravity of our sin and that's what you need to know. The message of Jesus is about the love and justice of God.

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He satisfies what we deserve for our sins and He gives us a righteousness that we don't deserve and it's a gift,

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Josh. The call of the Gospel is to turn from your sin to trust in Him to be saved now.

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I don't want you to think, Josh, that it was about climbing to Jesus for salvation. That wasn't it.

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But Josh, I want you to know Him and I believe from the moment you walked up here you came up and I so appreciated that you did, man because you came up and you actually acted like something matters in this world and I respect that but I just want you to consider that you've gone through this.

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You've grabbed a hold of a position now where nothing does matter but you didn't act like that and you're not acting like it,

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Josh, with this t -shirt. You can know Christ, Josh. Can I give you my number?

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No, thank you. Sorry. Well, I'm Jeff. Nice. Nice to meet you. Hail Satan. Hail Satan.