Have You Not Read - S1:E9

Sunnyside Baptist Church

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Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification

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Of the Saints. I'm Dylan Hamilton and with me is Michael Durham David Kassem Andrew Hudson Before we dig into our topic.

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We humbly ask for you to rate review and share the podcast. Thank you and Today we're starting out with a question from our audience

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Which actually our audience is whoever goes in and ask a question on our website

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Which can be found in the show notes after the show the first question is how should one understand the man

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Paul refers to as One was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words 2nd

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Corinthians 12 2 through 4 you take a shot Michael sure, so reading the text will be helpful here and It is interesting to go ahead and read chapter 11 and so on But we'll just start with verse 1 in 2nd

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Corinthians 12. It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast I will come to visions and revelations of the

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Lord I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago whether in the body

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I do not know or whether out of the body I do not know God knows such a one was caught up to the third heaven

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And I know such a man whether in the body or out of the body. I do not know God knows how he was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words

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Which is which it is not lawful for a man to utter of such a one. I will boast

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Yet of myself. I will not boast except in my infirmities for though I might desire to boast

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I will not be a fool for I will speak the truth But I refrain lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears

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From me and then Paul goes on to talk about the thorn in the flesh another famous passage about Paul he's already said that he'd rather talk about his infirmities and his weaknesses and How the

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Lord has been dealing with Paul in his life I think that the key word in this passage is not necessarily, you know, who is this man and And Third heaven and and so on.

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This is all very interesting. But why does he even bring it up? I mean that that's the real question here and I think the key word both in the latter part of 2nd

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Corinthians 11 and Here throughout 2nd Corinthians 12 is boasting. So who's boasting?

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Why is Paul compelled to boast but not boast? Why all the boasting what can we what can we see from the text any ideas?

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Well, there is a Just because I take it and the alternate view from you that Paul is actually speaking of himself

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Where he has before gone in and says if anyone has any reason to you know, glory or anyone do it

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It would be me a Hebrew of the Hebrews this this but all these things I count as rubbish, right? So he has the suffering for Christ and the thing and things that he is in enduring

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But he's boasting of its infirmities. Then he talks about more of his infirmities and the things that The the messenger of Satan that that's buffeting his flesh

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So he's talking about before this and after this about himself and what God is doing in him and why?

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So it feels like feels like did I actually say that I did it looks like Appears that Paul is maintaining the same context

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He's talking about himself But what God is doing in him if anybody has any reason to boast it'd be

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Paul But he doesn't because who am I I'm no one except what Christ has made me. Here's another example of what

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Christ has made Isn't it timestamp though? Like can we can we kind of verify? 14 years ago, right?

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There's something very specific here, isn't there? Yeah, so here's here's where I'm coming from when

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Paul says in the text Verse 5 After you know all the things that happened to this man first five pieces of such a one

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I will boast Yet of myself. I will not boast Now I'm just trying to roll with Paul's audience and Are they gonna pick up on some sort of subtle maneuver here where Paul is in engaging with some

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Subtle satire kind of poking at those who would boast about their special experiences and Trying to get at something and but he really is him, but it's but he's saying it in this way.

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I don't know I don't know. It's very possible. They're that sophisticated and so on and If it is

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Paul Great, if it's somebody that Paul sat down and had some hummus with that's great

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But why does he bring it up? He's bringing it up because he's trying to model for the folks there in Corinth That we should not be running around boasting about our special spiritual

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Experiences or shall we say here are all my credentials? Right, didn't

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Jesus teach us a different way. How did Jesus deal with his disciples when they were arguing? Who is the greatest?

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What did he do that happened more than once so What do you what do you remember about Jesus dealing with his disciples

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When they're trying to push those credentials and experiences, what did he do? he described to them who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, which is

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The least of these a servant He put a child in the midst of them.

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He said don't let anyone call you rabbi or leader Don't take on those fancy names.

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Don't let anyone call you Padre Pope Right Yeah, don't let anybody call you that you're a brother, right so he had he was always pushing against his disciples were getting really fat heads because they were casting out demons and they were healing people in the name of Jesus and they were

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Preaching with authority and seeing amazing things happened and and they were they were taking up these spiritual

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Experiences and comparing themselves with each other and saying oh which one is the greatest and Jesus is saying you're totally missing it here

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So Paul is doing that very same Pastoral maneuver here in Corinth and if you go back and you check what's going on at the end of 2nd

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Corinthians 10 And you keep on reading all the way through 2nd Corinthians 11. Here's the heart of Paul This is why he even brings it up.

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And again, is it Paul? I don't know Do we have to know I don't think so But obviously

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Paul knows about this amazing spiritual experience that trumps everybody else's boast in Corinth Like nobody can get even close to this

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So if we need to boast here, I've got a trump card that nobody can beat But why are we even doing that?

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we should be boasting about our weaknesses and our infirmities and show show how needy we are and how dependent we are on God and He's trying to move them away from those who are boasting

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Big time in themselves and the reason why for that is in at the beginning of 2nd Corinthians 11

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He says oh that you would bear with me in a little folly which is his Talking about boasting and indeed you do bear with me

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For I am jealous for you with Godly jealousy For I have betrothed you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste

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Virgin to Christ But I fear less somehow as the serpent deceived

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Eve by his craftiness So your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ his concern is that Satan will deceive

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The bride of the second Adam just as he did with the first Adam Now verse 4 for if he who comes preaches another

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Jesus whom we have not preached or if you receive a different spirit Which you have not received Or a different gospel, which you have not accepted.

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You may well put up with it How how are they being convinced to believe in a different Jesus in a different gospel and receive a different spirit than before Because these guys coming in with this false message have credentials and spiritual experiences and they're boasting in themselves

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Rather than boasting in the Lord and I think that's why that's what lays in the background of why

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Paul even brings this thing up I was in the spirit and received my PhD Using that instead of Instead of giving what was received

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Without any sort of boast it the focus Gets changed from Christ to me, right?

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Exactly. Okay I mean if this was an experience that Paul had 14 years earlier if it is indeed

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Paul which is the the view that I take based upon the foreign after He is modeling for them saying that look

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I had this 14 years ago, and I didn't mention it once Because it's that's not what gives me credibility.

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It's Christ is the focus here and if indeed the

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Corinthians are being led astray by those who have these experiences and I know

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I We know we know the story of the you know, the little boy who you died and went to heaven

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He wrote a book and started a movement. I mean, there's those things are It's almost a byword now

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So it's happening today So Paul comes in with this talking about he's glorying his infirmities

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He has these you know, all of these things that have happened to him, but we glory in Christ We glory in Christ and by the way, you know 14 years ago.

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I had this but you heard me mention it No, because if that's not the issue Here's the issue.

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Let's talk more about the thorn in the flesh. So Andrew What do you think about people?

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basing their Their spiritual pontifications based upon their own personal experiences

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Well, that's kind of my background. I grew up in a charismatic Church. I was going to say How else would you get on Sid Roth's show?

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To sell your how to break soul ties and generational curses if it wasn't for all these

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Experiences that you can share with others for the audience that cannot see what's happening Everyone in the room cringed at that It's happening every single week and there's a new set of or a new batch of teaching for people to purchase to now

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Get to the next level or to get what they want or to be free from Addictions because of a a soul tie that happened three generations ago

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Andrew I'm glad that you have a facility with all this because I don't know if I had had the stomach to catch up on all the

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That just sounds awful. It is it is I Used I used to preach monthly once a month at a at a charismatic group and they called themselves a church

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You know, there's a lot of people there they were just trying to get some kind of stability in their life and And it was a mess.

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It was just a mess up there and I would go and preach monthly but the the spirit in the room It was the most oppressive place

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I've ever been And I wanted to I wanted to help but it was very difficult to be there

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It was full of something else other than the spirit Yeah, it was full of Their worship was like that they came for their worship experience which was the music that they were blaring through their little metal building and it was

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Overwhelming it was so loud. You couldn't hear yourself think You know Jesus culture wailing repeated mantras, you know, it was very

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Eastern Pantheistic kind of approach Did that type of charismata look like what was described in the

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Book of Corinthians Mm -hmm about how to do how the gifts and workings of the

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Holy Spirit how they are to button be done in order No, it wasn't orderly. It wasn't orderly and even in this very small group.

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They kept on having fractures and divisions Because everybody needed their spotlight and they weren't getting enough spotlight and it was it was very tragic and the health of it was very clear when you saw

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There was a young girl who was a part of the group and she died just suddenly and they never actually found out the reason for her death and the the church and The group there and then the funeral afterwards and so on it just had no way of Handling it.

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Well, they just they didn't and I can imagine Paul just Praying and laboring for the

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Corinthian Church trying to ground them in the word and not in Experiences, but there are a lot of Artistic people that were drawn to this church.

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I find so like in school. I always found that kids that were Creative in any sort of way or gifted in that way were extremely drawn and especially musically creative.

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They're extremely drawn to charismatic movements or things that I saw were really lifting up their gifting as something higher than the rest of the gifting and in the room and I I've noticed that as well like even with some of my writers groups where kids were like that and like they wanted churches that would

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Vaunt like poetry or create some sort of creative out output with words and I Never had that attraction to it and maybe it's because I wasn't as good as words with words as they were but I see people being drawn to places where they're gifting is

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Vaunted at least a little bit. Yeah, there really was a hunger for the spotlight

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Hmm and and then whatever and they everyone was trying to find their particular niche and Then to emphasize the need to have that, you know put up front because again, if you're if your spirituality if your religious experience if if everything is based upon your

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Experiences if your faith is based upon your experiences, then you have to pursue as many experiences as you possibly can

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And that's it. That's it. Isn't is it exhausting? What's next? What's next?

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Yeah, what's next? Constantly. Yes the dopamine hits well, and that's the thing and of course these folks were you know, struggling with the after -effects of going through a life of addicted to drugs and So they were struggling with all kinds of things but there was just such a sharp contrast between what they were doing it, you know, the first 45 minutes to an hour of the

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Get -together versus what I was doing when I got up there to read the Bible and then

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Exposite the text and try to apply it under the authority of Christ There was it was such a sharp

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Contrast it. It's um, it's like Paul Walsh heard a youth conference kind of a thing where They're doing this whole emotional

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Ramping up kind of a thing and they're just going nuts and then he gets up there to you know

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Preach the gospel and you know, and basically advance the fear of the Lord upon everyone and it's so disjointed

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It's just very disjointed So there's of course, we know some of the things are going on and in the life of Corinth So obviously

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Paul's wanting to ground them in something other than boasting and spiritual experiences And again,

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I think it's interesting point that David brings up about You know, this was not brought up for 14 years, let's say like it never got mentioned, okay

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And then all of a sudden Paul trots it out. And I think the point is well made There's always somebody else who could trump your

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Spiritual experience. Well, what then do they get to define what the gospel is now and what the truth is now?

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Come on on that note What does it mean For being whether in the body or whether out of the body and it's mentioned basically twice

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Is that death? Because it it does say caught up Now is this a catching up in spirit or this person died and then returned?

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So because yeah, well, it was stoned and they thought he was dead, right? so Whether in the body or out of the body, he doesn't even know

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And he says it more than once and there's all sorts of things that are just you can't hardly define it's

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When you think about what what Paul describes here we see similarities with the experience of John the

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Apostle Who was caught up to the third heaven not the sky

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Not the sphere of the stars but into the throne room of God into the presence of God that the very same place where Christ ascended and was taken from his disciples and Hidden by the

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Shekinah glory cloud and entered into the throne room of heaven. Well what

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Paul describes here is something that we get to see in detail when we read a relation and At first we read that John is on the

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Isle of Patmos and He sees he hears Christ and then he sees Christ and we could say that John has some sense about Himself that he's in the body

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Okay Who knows what happens when he goes to the throne room of heaven and all sorts of?

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Very interesting things start happening. Is John aware of his body at some of these points maybe at some points

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Maybe not at other points. So who knows it's intentionally vague Because that was the actual experience.

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It was vague. Okay, so I think I think that's what it it's it's hard to explain I think it's part of what

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Paul is saying. Do we have a reformed version of this where there's boasting and the camp with credentials and I Am of so -and -so when so -and -so baptized me or trained me or taught me we remember that from early in Corinthians, right there was a controversy and schisms about following persons based on various experiences and so on and This is a this is a great temptation to believers, you know

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I was there at Shepherds conference when XYZ went down you know or I've been to all the t4gs or I've been

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I've been to The conferences that are way more holy than t4g

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And it's and so on So there's there's that there's I read the

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Institutes every year, you know those kinds of things I'm I'm more more familiar with so on and so forth.

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So That kind of bragging and then this is a part of it and I and I'm totally not digging at David But the main reading of this has been

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Paul. This is Paul saying that it's it's Paul, but not saying it's Paul Which okay

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But I don't know if there is room for a humble brag When he's trying to a note, but he is modeling not to boast about experiences and he is saying bear with me with a little

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Folly, so I'm still okay with that reading if it is Paul, but at the same time there is the humble brag pitfall

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In reform camp, is there not where? there's discussion going on maybe some pastoral application needing to be made and all of a sudden someone drops a

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You know $10 word to sum up the situation or they

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Mentioned by the by. Oh, this was in this obscure passage of this obscure Puritan That I read five years ago and still remember, you know,

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I'm not bragging but I'm bragging Kind of thing. So yeah, we're tempted to do that and that can make conversations kind of insufferable especially for folks who come in to groups and they and they want to fellowship with followers of Jesus and they can't keep up with the

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You know with the with the lore the references. Yeah, exactly What's this paradise he's caught up into Well, he says in parallel you think about the way that the

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Hebrew mind works So he says in verse 3 such a one was caught up into the third heaven

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Okay, and then in verse 4 how he was caught up into paradox So with the

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Hebrew parallelism, just the just the natural way of writing the natural way of expressing oneself

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I would say that whatever the third heaven is is the paradise and vice versa and if we've already identified the third heaven as Heaven proper in terms of being with God in his presence

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What John experienced what the Saints experience upon death as Paul has already

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Paul says elsewhere he desires This blessing of being absent from the body and present with the

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Lord, I mean, that's a good thing But that would be what?

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He's talking about caught up into paradise in Him saying heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter there were some inexpressible words uttered

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Around John and John was gonna write him down and then he was said no you can't write that down So to me this is a similar experience to that of the

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Apostle John Was it is it too far out there to say that this guy that he knows is

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John or is it? It's the timeline way way off That would blow so many people's mind overlap of churches

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During this minute time in ministry as far as the locations of the churches. Yes, so the question so it's it's interesting when you read the

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Narrative of the book of Revelation John is on the Isle of Patmos Okay, the tradition is that he was exiled there by Caesar because of the sudden surge of opposition to Christians and So on but when you look at Patmos in relationship to the churches of Asia Minor very close proximity there it wouldn't be out of Out of the realm of possibility that John was there on the

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Isle of Patmos. Maybe preaching the gospel He's there on the Lord's Day. Was he hoping to Be a part of a service together and break bread with believers.

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I mean we don't Do we have any clear vector about how why he's there, right?

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So it's just been held in the last hundred and fifty years that Revelation was, you know written in the reign of Diocletian You know in the 90s and so on however, you know, it could be that it was written during the realm of Nero or maybe even

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What 14 years prior to 2nd Corinthians? That's that.

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I think that's uh, I don't know. I don't know. Does anybody have that theory? That's pretty exciting I don't have the like timeline.

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Yeah, I need I need a timeline of Yeah, we're talking like maybe 40 ad right at that point, right?

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Like is it I think Corinthians are written in the 50s so Well, and even even if like say he gets this account from John right

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John may not have written it down Right away, right. It could have been later that he penned it or sure. Yeah, sure

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And so who knows that sure some of this does fit John Pretty well, but I as far as the dating and the you know

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It's 14 years ago and so on and so forth when it is the more credentialed you are and the more highbrow elite

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Bible scholar you are The more fashionable it is to push all of the dates of all the writings of Scripture Farther and farther out later and later and later that's just the trend and the there are a few counter proposals to that like Richard Bauckham and so on who find reasons to Propose that these things are written earlier

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But greatly the trend is to push it all late I'm I'm convinced that everything in the

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New Testament was written prior to 80 70 the motivation is usually to account for prophecy

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It's whether you're looking at Daniel. It's it's all written written late.

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Why because it's accurate How could that be? There's Deutero Isaiah? Are you sure because yeah, it's it's too accurate to be biblical because it's talks about Cyrus, right?

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so If it's written early, that means it's true Because prophecy came true if it's written late then you can discount it so that that the motivation is

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To undermine the biblical text. It's not the Word of God, but it contains the Word of God when we say it's inspired

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We mean it's that it's it's it's really an inspiring work. I just want us smack the guy in the face that's actually not what it says, but That would be illegal so I think

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Karl Barth was a sad individual who really did want to believe the gospel, but not really You know who called

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Bart's favorite preacher was Martin Lloyd -Jones Really? Yeah, very spoke very very high about Martin Lloyd -Jones

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Love to visit love to hear him preach did not repent and believe though Karl FH Henry once asked

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Karl Barth In an interview whether he believed that the tomb was empty where Jesus's body had been laid

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In other words, was there an actual physical resurrection? Yeah with physical resurrection Yeah a bodily resurrection that Jesus actually died.

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He was actually lived in the tomb He actually rose from the dead and Karl Barth considered the question to be nonsensical. What does that have to do with anything?

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Hmm an empty tombs not the issue, right? Yeah, it's about encountering

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I beg to differ it's about encountering the Word of God in these collected myths Yeah, the empty tomb is the issue.

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It's the core issue Yeah, exactly boasting of oneself is antithetical to John's ministry of decrease and Christ's increase

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I must decrease he must increase Puffing up oneself is the opposite of that.

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Yeah, that's that's a good point I mean, that's isn't everything in the gospel and how it works out we see in the

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New Testament Designed to strip us of boasting I mean it did when you read

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Romans 3 so that no man may boast Jesus tells his disciples You are to be the least in the kingdom of heaven

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Tells all his followers take up your cross You die to yourself Take up your cross and follow me the

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Paul counting all of his credentials as a dunghill and Just time time after time

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It's about stripping away all those Prefixes suffixes initials and Everything that we would throw around our names

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So that there's no name, but the name of Christ written on our foreheads in our hands Amen to that gives you a different kind of context when you think of being a kingdom of priests as well

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Whereas a worldly King would have all these suffixes and prefixes. I Think it it allows us to redefine

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Through the Bible our preconceptions of what a king is as well. Well, we have

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Ran out of time for this question for today So we're gonna go around the horn and we're gonna say what we're thankful for Michael short.

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We'll start with you well, I am thankful for The the truth time and again that I have to keep on applying to myself, but that We the

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God does not get tired of our praying He doesn't get wore out from hearing from us that because of the the full robust nature of Christ's redemption

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That we can come boldly persistently That we coming that we come humbly but Asking for everything that we need because that's exactly what we were instructed to do and That it folds into this boasting thing wherein we are

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Not to be boasting about our own strength But we are to be depending on the strength of the

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Lord that Christian maturity is not Becoming more independent but becoming more

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Dependent and so just thankful for the gift of prayer Thankful to come to my

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Heavenly Father again and again know that I can just lay everything out and it's specific nature

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Well, I am I'm thankful for our Wednesday night prayer meeting.

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I drove about four hours yesterday after Flying about three three legs

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And getting up around 4 a .m yesterday, so Backing up. It was a long day and driving in and All I wanted to do and I admit it all

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I wanted to do was get Get home and go

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Go straight home and yeah, it's about Oh 515 or so when everybody's gathering here getting ready to break bread quite quite literally and And My daughter text me and says hey, we're going to we're going to church.

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What are you gonna be here in time? It's like I don't know if I'm gonna be there be there in time. It says, okay. Well you you can meet us there and I'm like,

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I'm looking at the GPS. I'm like, and I'm just I'm just dragging I mean, I'm running on on, you know caffeine and hope at this point and I was like, no, it's alright

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I I would like to I'd like to go and then I show up and Everyone's glad to see me and I have been gone for two weeks because I got caught in an ice storm and I couldn't get home the same snow storm that you guys had up here and I got to see you got to see everybody and all of the

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I Guess the tiredness sort of you know Abated for a bit and we just got to You know,

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I I'd missed I'd missed the meals like oh, that's okay, you know After after prayer time and and and fellowship time

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Jana would not let me get out of here without taking some enchiladas So she's just forcing these on me and I tore into those things.

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I was so hungry last night But it was just I was fed. I was

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I was I was fed with fellowship. I was fed with Seeing my family and I was I was fed literally and it was just it was just a reminder

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This was it was good, it was good, even though I had a long day It was a kind of tired workday where you you know

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You're satisfied you're tired after a long day where you actually were working and traveling and doing doing the things you've been called to do and but you know, you kind of long and for bed and It was it was really nice So I'm very thankful for our

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Wednesday with their prayer time very thankful for all the people that Prepare food and I'm thankful for my family

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Encouraging me to make a little pit stop on the way home to see our church family.

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I am thankful That I don't have to worry about what tomorrow holds

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We see Jesus telling us Not to be worried about such things but to prioritize to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all the things that As he puts it the

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Gentiles worry about you know, I'm so worried about that type of stuff but He puts into proper perspective the role of food the usefulness for clothing and and drink that it

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I Don't have to worry about such things and that is a comfort. Amen. I'm thankful to God for His adding to us at all times

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Even when it's just things like bringing home a set of chickens and Adding a coop to the yard and stuff like that.

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He plays no zero some games. He's only adding to us and Refining us and when he even when he takes away in the case of Loss or losing someone or a miscarriage or something like that it's always adding some refinement to you and your family and it also adds to The love that you learn to express to the ones that you do have

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So I'm very very thankful to his adding out of the abundance of his kindness to our households.

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It's very Reassuring comforting but it's also just a magnification of his character and you learn and And you get to see how he is and it lets you know how you need to be so I'm very thankful for that We are also very thankful for all of our listeners who tune in week to week

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We appreciate your listening to this content and we ask that you please rate share and review and we hope you'll join us again