Trail Talk: Branding, Ideology, and Evangelicalism

Conversations That Matter

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Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the conversations that matter podcast. This is a trail talk edition

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I am in the beautiful Shongunk Mountains near my house And I've been cooped up in my office the last few days

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So I thought when I got up this morning and saw how beautiful it was. I would take a few hours and come here

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I love coming here and do some hiking and walking and resting and praying and reading and all of that so As I was doing this

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I thought to myself you know, I've been mulling over this idea of brand and how to understand the evangelical landscape through an understanding of brand

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And I think it's a fairly original thought. I haven't heard anyone else talk about this and I for me It's really helped me understand.

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I think what's happening right now in Evangelicalism and I've gotten questions about this about why

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Certain organizations. Why is there friction? It seems like between you know, g3 and Christian nationalists

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That's one of the latest ones But there have been other situations where it seems like certain groups won't talk to other groups.

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There's no cross -pollination. There's There's there's just there's an insularity and it seems like this would be a time when everyone should be working together

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Our threats have never been more Great at least I don't say never but in our generation our lifetime

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Whoever's listening, you know The threats against Christianity in general have never been greater and yet the fragmentation has never been more and it's kind of a weird

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Situation wouldn't you think and I think that's what a lot of people are asking about So I want to share with you a thought on this and see what you have to say if you have comments if you have

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Questions, please put them in the info section or the comment section and that will greatly help me because I might actually write about this we'll see

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I want to start off with just an understanding of brand and fashion, so I've come to understand

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Contrary to the way that I think the world should work but realizing how the world actually works.

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That's Many people including myself tend to respond very positively to certain things and not positively to other things not necessarily based fully upon whether We are in agreement, but also because of something called fashion

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And and brand is a I guess you could say a symbolic rallying point for certain fashions and so You know, why do

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I wear the shirt that I'm wearing now? Why do I listen to the people? I listen to why why do

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I associate with certain people and not with other people? Why do I like certain music? Why there's all these things that all these questions that I think can be somewhat answered when we understand brand and fashion

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And so I see it this way Let's think about it from a business angle

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Angle when you are Trying to sell clothes. Let's say and there's certain styles of clothes that you have you have to in order to sell those clothes

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You have to be particular you have to set yourself apart from other styles and You do that by branding that our store

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Has this brand and we sell this style and the kinds of people you want to be like come here and buy clothes here

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That's branding and and we understand this I think in the business world you have to With competition show that your product is superior, but not just that it's superior but that you know, you are

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The people who frequent your in your shop are the kinds of people that are good people the the people you want to be like the cool people and this is this has been going on obviously for a long time, but I think people need to realize that Even Even business brands having branding in business and so forth.

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There's something somewhat modern about that Now we have it in other arenas.

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It's not just businesses. It's ministries. It's churches, which is what we'll talk about today It's everything everything's got an icon.

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Everything has a brand and I don't think that's all wrong, by the way But it's just it's the world we live in. So how did we get here?

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well, one of the things I think that contributed to this is that During the

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Industrial Revolution, but really for the last few hundred years people have been moving from agrarian rural areas to more urban settings and in that process of Moving a lot of social bonds were broken

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Organic communities were destroyed Roger Scruton talks about this time being a time when people were expressing themselves in art in very lonely ways because they were surrounded by all these people you would think that they they would have more opportunity to be engaged in social

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Activities and yet this was a time when they felt the most detached the obligations and the security that came with living in a place for Centuries or or at least decades with the same families in the same area ties to the land that was all wiped away and so people were in a situation moving to the cities where they no longer were required to get along with their their neighbors and And family members and they didn't have to marry into the same families and things like that So they were free to associate with whoever they would choose to associate with now this created a situation where You had superficial relationships with co -workers perhaps and you had relationships with With people that you had shared interests, you know, maybe a hobby club of some kind and I think

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I mean you think of like Carnegie's book how to win friends and influence people a lot of the attraction to various people was predicated on a personality that could even be projected and So, you know, this is all new this is in world history

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This is a new phenomenon and people are arranging themselves differently than they did before this urbanization took place

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Now I think this is crucial to understanding where we are now because not only did urbanization happened and Urbanization just so people know this isn't about just rural rural moving to the cities

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It's moving to cities and mega megatropolis or megalopolis is whatever you call it

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I mean huge cities cities on a scale that has never been We've never seen cities this big so so that's what's going on and that's been going on for a while quite some time so So people are in these urban areas and now they have technology now they can communicate quickly they are

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They don't really have Silence and reflection because they're constantly interrupted.

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We have cell phones now, of course there's distraction all around us and things that are stimulating us and getting our attention and so we're constantly in this we basically have mega megatropolis or Metropolis in our pocket all the time.

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We have the city is with us even in rural areas I mean, I I'm using my phone to record this right now.

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I have it on Do not disturb but I have it with me and most people don't put it on do not disturb.

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So they're they're reachable 24 -7 So we have all this connectivity, but but so much of it is superficial.

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It's mediated through barriers. It's right now you're even watching this or listening to this probably on a device with a flat surface and I'm not really there with you

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I'm not seeing your reaction but You're given the impression at least that it might feel in a way like I am like and so You know, this is there's blessings to this obviously,

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I wouldn't be recording something like this if I didn't think that but there's also downsides to this and people

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I think Who had had these communities fractured who are stimulated and and distracted all the time by superficial things?

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tend to There tends to be a sense of a lack of depth and a lack of rootedness and a need for belonging and a need for stability and a need for leadership because all these things have been destroyed and So what do they do?

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They rally around certain things They need a new rallying point and that happens to be at least one of the things is brand loyalty

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Instead of region or family loyalty. There's brand loyalty and there's security in being part of the brand and So I think if we start off with this understanding

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Then a lot of what's happened in the last few years in evangelicalism starts to make more sense

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And I just challenge people I know there's gonna be some who will be sensitive to this and I'm trying my best to be as as Nice as I can

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I really want to just explain this as best I can and not I'm not trying to whack anyone But I will say this the latest controversy in this vein that that made me sparked me into thinking this is the controversy between g3 and Christian nationalism and I don't want to go into the details of that.

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That's not the point of this that I want to get behind that and ask another question What broadly is going on in evangelicalism that could?

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Saying accusing anyone in particular, but what what could be something that would motivate?

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let's say a Sensitivity to one's brand being encroached upon if you if you think of g3 as a brand, right?

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And I think of let me pick an organization that I really I admire and I follow for a long time Let's pick them, you know,

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John MacArthur grace to you shepherds conference master seminary all that stuff There are people we call them

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MacArthur rights who build their lives around this They I mean everything is about John MacArthur and it's bigger than a man at that point.

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It's not even about the man it's about this industry that's built up around him and you

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Can you can assess whether or not you're gonna get along with someone based upon whether or not?

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They also are part of that brand and wear that that label on their sleeve. Do they listen to John MacArthur?

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Do they like, you know, Getty music or whatever? If do they also attend these conferences if they were gonna go to seminary wouldn't they go to masters, right?

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That's the kind of stuff it provides security. It's provides like you think well,

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I have something in common with this person We're part of the same. We have this we wear the same shirt. We wear the same kind of people we identify with one another, right?

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So so that's what maybe that'll give a better window into what I'm thinking of when I say brand and I apply it to ministry

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In fact churches today. Well, they don't have steeples or gothic arches or Crosses as much as they do now brand icons that they make and and they think this is purposeful

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They're intentionally trying not to look like a church and look more like a business Because everything's going that direction

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So so anyway That's what's going on broadly speaking now in to pick this just recent example if you were if you had a major ministry and a brand and You were trying to build that brand you're trying to expand in all these new places.

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You're trying to build apps and and and have conferences and workshops and Church networks and whatever else, you know,

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I don't know all the stuff that Everyone who has this ability to do it is trying to do

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Because let's just face it. There's a vacuum of leadership. There's a demand for leadership and there's just not

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There there's not the Supply and so if you can supply that if you or at least even give the impression that you can supply that Not only is there money to be made there, but there's there's influence to and that's not all bad.

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By the way That's not all bad. That's just a description of the situation that we're in and I think we should be aware of it now

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Currently Just think with me about this for a moment. See if you think what I'm saying is true

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Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho and that whole brand is growing by leaps and bounds people are moving there.

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They have new Organizations popping up over there. They are and they've been ostracized by just about every other major evangelical

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Institution there really isn't much cross -pollination going on there. There's there's not a lot of like Cooperation in with them and other major groups

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Like like g3 for example and and by the way If someone wants to fact -check me and say John there was this one time when they did like I'm not saying that it doesn't happen

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At all or never happened. I don't know but in general there there are some there's walls there.

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There's obviously There's obviously a barrier and this is how branding works some people shop at some stores some people shop at other stores

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So you have some speakers at these conferences some speakers at those conferences Some people attend those conferences and some people don't that's just how it works.

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All right. So again that that's just a description But let's say that this this

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Doug Wilson's brand is growing and the reason for it is because there has been such a lack of Leadership and and Wilson seems to show a spine sometimes and so that attracts people

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I think it's really not much more complicated than that to be quite honest. Yeah, they're sure there's other things but that's that's really what you need today

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More than anything else. And so his brand let's say and he may not even think of it as a brand But let's just say we call it what it is.

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There's an industry around him that's gaining a lot of followers and This threatens the other brands, right?

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Think about it from again clothing stores Like if people if more people are going into Old Navy then

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Aeropostale has a problem and they've got to button down the hatches they got to figure out how they're gonna deal with this and So you look for others, you know, if you see that let's say

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There's another ministry or another Store or something that's going under you you're thinking of ways.

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Well, how do I get those people to come to me and how do I? Show that we're superior to this this other store this other this other brand and in Christianity That's very delicate because you don't want to be seen as too mean that's a very hard thing to do

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So you can only attack things that aren't able to defend themselves as well and if you attack something that's too big or if you

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Or if you say something that's too mean it is and it's it's a secondary theological matter because again remember

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I just I said We have bigger threats now than we've ever had to Christianity in general. So if you end up fighting

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People who are under those same threats and you could cooperate, but you don't cooperate it looks bad

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So you you have to go after things that are actually, you know quote -unquote gospel issues or heresy or you know, really really important and preferably from against people who can't

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Damage your brand that much. They don't have the power to do it and I'm I'm thinking about this way from from a business angle and then applying it to the

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Evangelical world seems to make a lot of sense to me It at least makes more sense of what we're seeing because frankly

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I was having a hard time I was I was like, wait a minute We're all like who's cares whose kingdom is built because we're all trying to build

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God's kingdom here Who cares who gets the glory or credit like if this podcast if you're listening to goes away

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Let let my name decrease and his increase right? That's not how it works with branding though So anyway getting back to this discussion on on the

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Christian nationalism debate and all that You have this brand that's being built the Moscow brand and in theonomies part of that I suppose post -millennial ism is definitely part of that Presbyterianism to some extent as part of this and How do you

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If people are being attracted to this brand which and again, I think it comes down to strength I don't think it's those things.

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I think people are adopting those things But I think that I don't think that's the first thing that's Propelling them into adopting these things.

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It's just like Students who want to be like their teachers, right? They have an admiration and then they adopt certain ways that their teacher communicates or whatever.

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So So anyway, I think that's what's happening there and not saying that people who adopt these theologies don't have these convictions

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I'm just saying I think on a broad level that explains better why people are

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Jumping especially young men to this post -millennial position Without even studying it in depth.

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They've but they've heard someone they admire express it in articulate ways. Okay, so So that's what's happening.

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And that's how most of the world works. It's fashion. It's identity It's brand that used to be mostly in families and regions and so forth

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And now again, it's more in branding than it is those things so If someone's cutting in on your your audience or they're a threat in that way

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You have to build walls. You have to keep your audience and try to prevent them from From getting your members and and you know, even just thinking about this

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This has been public but you have like desiring God just had Joe Rigney leave and not desiring God But the Bethlehem Baptist seminary the seminary connected to the church

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You had Jared Longshore Lee founders ministries both Baptists, but they both went where to Moscow to Idaho So this is happening in real time now

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Because there's Because brands tend to draw these rigid lines

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I think this is the reason that they function often as ideologies and I mean something fairly specific by that ideologies are simple precepts that that explain everything that give you the key to understanding everything and and and so everything gets kind of flattened and And this works well with brands because you can it doesn't there's not a lot of on the front and understanding

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You need to have to accept an ideology you just have to understand a few basic things and then you're part of the group and You're able to distinguish yourself from everyone who's not part of that ideology

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And so So people do this all the time like I the MacArthurite thing is basically

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I think turning John MacArthur almost into this abstraction It's it's not he's not even a man anymore. It's an ideology.

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I Think that there is and I'm just gonna say This is hard for me to articulate.

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I see it, but it's hard for me to say it. There is this sort of Ecclesiastical ideology and I've run into this in many places

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That looks at the church as almost I Guess an abstraction that everything is about the church

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That our identity should be wrapped up in the church if the church is open We should be at the church. We should filter all our social activities through the church

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We should filter our life decisions through church leadership, right? It's the local church and the local church becomes it's you could it's easy to do this to make it an ideology to make it

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Something. Yeah, it is important obviously, but that's not everything That's not everything about us that makes us who we are that confers identity.

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That's important for us to focus on It's one thing but but when it's inflated and it's given so much

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Preference that you get The ultimate end of this I suppose would be a cult. So yeah, that's that's the extreme form.

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But But there is this ideological kind of Ecclesiastical ideology that I've noticed and I Think I've just I've sensed this and I could definitely pull some

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I could have we pull some examples I don't want to do that. I just want I'm more so trying to give everyone a

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Framework rather than the specific examples because I really don't want to get into the weeds into a fight on this if I can avoid it

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So Let me say it this way I've seen people connected to some of these conservative ministries that are not

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Moscow conservative Christian ministries adopt elements of this specifically making

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The the church into an ideology Now by the way, there's conservative elements that make the family into an ideology, too

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I think that that's the danger if you're in like a family integrated church you just gotta be careful that you don't go too far into that and make the family everything and everything's filtered the family and the husband or the father is the one who makes all decisions and like if you

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You can get pretty and get pretty weird So again, I'm not saying don't go to I'm not knocking family integration and I'm not knocking the local church

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I'm just saying when those things are made into abstractions or ideologies They they lose their purpose and the people who end up doing it become more narrow combative

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And they're not the kind of people. I generally like to hang out with just put it that way Because it's like you have to be like totally on their team on this issue and or else like you're missing like everything

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You're just not You they can't even work with you so anyway, I see that as one of the driving influence and In order to I think with Moscow and Ida and Doug Wilson's project in Idaho If you want to call it that whatever you want to call it, whatever that is that industry that's built up around Doug Wilson.

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I think They have a little bit more that of a

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Like their view on Christian engagement is a little broader

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They Actually, it may be a lot broader than than the ideal ideologues when it comes to ecclesiology and It's much more holistic.

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There's much more. I mean you have the classical Christian school movement kind of coming out of there you have

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Political even cross -politic I think was one of the first shows that they had on their app you have

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All this stuff happening there. That's beyond now now There's there's pitfalls for everything so there might even be some pitfalls in this which isn't for this particular podcast this isn't

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I'm not trying to just praise Moscow or anything like that just so people know I'm just trying to explain it but there there is a broad a broader emphasis that they have and Part of that has played into the

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Christian nationalism debate They published even Wolfe's book can impressed it and They've been comfortable adopting the label

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Christian nationalist and they've had major media go there to talk about Christian nationalism. And so This I think is a weak point in the minds of some especially those who have the brand

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Let's get back to branding of I'm about the local church. I'm about ecclesiology. It's all about the local church and elders and those people over there

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Aren't There's other distinctions between them, but I'm just saying this is one distinction and I think it came out here that they're

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They're getting getting into these other areas and it's threatening the integrity of the local church It's because because that's what we should be focused on not

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Not building a Christian culture or anything like that. We should be building churches not cultures and and so I Think that you see this in the secular world

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But I think you see this in the church where if you have competition like that you tend to draw hard lines you tend to Proclaim your authority and and you you become loud there's

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There's really and talking about in the secular world. There's little room for truth or nuance when this happens and It all becomes like a rallying point of You know, let's let's we're about our brand and that's about it.

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It's very it's a great it can be aggressive and And this is how businesses

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Compete with one another It's this is how secular politics also works it's it's personalities and brand and This is actually took me longer than I care to admit to grasp this even in politics because I thought it should all be about Truth and I'm like, well, it's all about truth though.

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Like we're all committed to that, right and You know, it's it's actually been fairly recently that I finally

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I mean, it's been over time I've had experiences where I realized it wasn't but you know, it's fairly recently where I've really just become so I guess red -pilled on this to Borrow a phrase a popular phrase right now

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And see it in every area. That's been a fairly recent thing for me. I Still tend to go back to like well, it should all be about the truth and It's that's just not the way often the world works

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It's about who you associate with it's about brand it's about fashion and You have to mark your territory you have to make sure that You're seen in a certain way.

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So you project this image of yourself and your company or you know your ministry in the in As the case may be and You draw sharp distinction distinctions between yourself and others even when it's not maybe necessary or it's it's not needed and That that's

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I think for me what's explained a lot of what I've seen now over the course of now years

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Because there's a bunch of things. I I didn't understand. I didn't know how to even articulate it to you

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I want to say two years ago three years ago when the woke stuff was happening.

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I I didn't understand why Certain ministries were failing to take hard stands and name names

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Like I thought we should all be about truth Why aren't they doing this and then only to see some people start to name some names that were

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Acceptable to name after the tilling had been done and you know, like Russell Moore Beth Moore David French, you know people that had been

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So exposed that it became safe to name them Because you knew that there's gonna be a large group of people who would

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Agree with you if you did that and you'd gain support it might even be to your advantage That That that didn't make sense to me at first.

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I thought well, they're just saying they're compromising the gospel. They're saying lies over here They're they're leading sheep astray.

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Like let's let's go shoot the wolves. Let's at least warn the sheep Right and and and there were people who did do that But there were also those who did not and I couldn't figure it out.

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I couldn't figure it out and Then the more you get into I think the evangelical world the more you realize that Like most other things there's a business element to this and and you just have to be aware of that it's just the way the world works, that's how that's how it is and It takes a lot of integrity a lot of strength endurance

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Honesty transparency to be in even that world and to to do so in a way that's

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Not self -serving that's not that's about truth That has a wider vision than just your denomination or your organization or your missions agency or whatever

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It's it takes a special kind of person that God's equipped to be in leadership positions in those organizations

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And in most of these organizations We we tend to have people who are managers, right?

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Like this thing of business managers, and so they're managing a brand there. They have to manage image

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They have to project image. They have to Beat competition

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They all of these things are necessary things in order to run Major ministries and the higher the levels you get the more this becomes prevalent

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So, you know it should Christians be in major ministries Yeah I mean I think you can be I think you just got to be very aware of this kind of thing and very careful of it and Just realize

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God brings the increase and it's not your strategies aren't the things that are going to grow your ministries

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Not saying don't strategize but just you know realize that the increase is gonna come from the

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Lord so so these thoughts are not quite complete, but it's incomprehensive, but it is

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I think a start to understanding some of this and and perhaps

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I'm just applying something that's already been known in the business world to something in The Christian ministry world the evangelical world and if so, then that's you know, that's fine, but I wanted everyone

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To hear this so that I could get feedback So if you have feedback about if you think I'm totally wrong that I'm just I'm I'm out in left field

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Let me know. I'd love to hear that. I I'm about about the truth. I want to know what's actually

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Explains what we've seen the last few years. Some of you don't know exactly what I'm talking about in every way Those who have been podcast listeners for a while, you know exactly what

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I'm talking about Why ministries have behaved the way that they behave? I think that this might go a long way to Understanding some of it and and and to bring it to a close that the real test that I would ask is if it's good

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For the kingdom, would you be okay with people going somewhere else associating with others being part of a different brand?

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That's the test to find out if you're part of a brand in a way If if it's good for even on the local church level

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You could say is it good for the kingdom of God for them to go to this other church if it is then you know You might be disappointed, but you should be for it.

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It shouldn't be something that makes you bitter or makes you you know jaded or makes you jealous or Makes you insecure or makes you want to you know, sure up the brand

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Because it's about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God isn't a brand. So So have your brands that's fine, you know, even in ministries, you know, you can have a you know certain like style or whatever

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You know, these people congregate here and we do this kind of thing, but just realize that that doesn't replace

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The actual invisible church. It doesn't replace local community. It doesn't replace family. It doesn't replace

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All the things that God has given us In organic ways. In fact, what it should do is it should support those things

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It should help us love those things more and if it's not doing that then it really hasn't no business existing

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Ministries for ministry's sake Don't don't have a point to them right there.

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They serve a purpose and that purpose is to assist churches to assist families to insist individual

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Christians and as the case may be to Disciple people who might even run for politics and need to know how to guide a country with just laws

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That's where the Christian nationalism debate all comes in So anyway, I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you enjoyed trail talk because I sure do this is just beautiful There's some great lookouts that I guess

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I guess they're coming up so you don't get to see them today I'll have to do another trail talk. So you get to see the lookouts, but This is a beautiful day in the forest to say the least