Sye Ten Bruggencate, Jeff Durbin, & Luke Pierson

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There you go, all right so we're here with side 10 Bruggen Kate in Milton, Florida for the

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Herald Society and So, what's up sigh? How's it going? Good man.

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Good to see you brothers again. That's right Just a few weeks ago in Arizona and keeping it warm. That's right. Yeah More weeks will be in Calgary.

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Yeah, excellent. Hopefully it'll be warm then. Yeah, so I want to talk to you just about the defense of the faith apologetics and I wanted to do it in light of Error we all make and have made and that is

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Arrogance haughtiness pride and so just talk for a second about somebody's

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To somebody that's coming up. They're just now saying picking up Presuppositional apologetics by Bonson always ready pushing the antithesis or reading some

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Vance Hill and they're realizing The nuclear strength of this apologetic, right? And so that tends to initially breed

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An excitement like man. God is amazing. Jesus is mighty and powerful, but it may

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Breed the initial stages of a person that locked people's heads off, right? So talk to that person

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They're just saying wow, like Jesus is mighty. He's powerful. He does have all authority He is he is the foundation of all reasoning, right?

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But what do we what do we want to say to them when it comes to how we? Like I said the tendency is that through your whole life if you've been using bad apologetics

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You've been beaten down and beaten down and you finally have the relief of a nice biblical powerful apologetic and you want to return the favor

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Yeah, you know you want to beat them down, you know in response to what's been happening to you most of your life

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But the best thing I mean happens to all of us too You're in that situation where you can annihilate them what you have to remember and what

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I try to picture is that is us That's good because I remember one of my first debates

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I was listening to a friend of mine before was published He was high five me was fist bump me So you're nailing this guy and I let him because it was a relief to finally see a biblical apologetic

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But at the end of that debate I said, this is not funny Hmm, I said that guy is going to hell if not for the grace of God and that guy is you and me so that's one thing to keep us in check is to realize that that's us and if they

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Can't see that if they can't tone down because of that. That's a problem So you do you see a you see a connection between the reformed apologetic which is presuppositional apologetics

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Covenantal apologetics or whatever someone wants to call it and reform theology. Absolutely just the grace of God is what separates the unbeliever from the believer and so We should be focusing on allowing our

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Calvinism to take root within us Yeah, as we go and reach people, so we're trusting the sovereignty of God to bring them but acknowledging all the way that look

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I have to recognize that it's God's spirit. That's gonna accomplish this and not me, right? Okay, and then of course the big objection is well if it's

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God that does it what are you guys doing on the right? Yeah, why are you witnessing to people why you're praying for people if it's

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God you get that objection all the time This is how I respond. I say you believe that God knows everything, right?

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Yes, I do you believe that God knows if you're gonna have a full stomach tonight. Yes, I do Why do you eat?

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Yeah. Yeah. Why do you eat because that's the means by which God fills your stomach Why do I witness to people because God can't condescends to use worms like us

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To save people he doesn't have to do that He can fill my stomach miraculously, but the normal ways that he does it is by the means of my eating

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He can save people miraculously But the normal means by which he does it is by his servants and that's what we have to represent him

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Not that we're gonna see all these converts but to do in a way that honors him and he'll take care of you know The ends.

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Yeah, that was a great sign allergy Thank you Jeff ten

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Durbin Durbin cake. All right, so how describe for people how presuppositional apologetics has

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Sanctified you as a Christian because I think that's what's most important is that and I know you and I have similar

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Testimonies to how this changed our minds and everything, but someone's just listening and they're saying okay So I use the Bible to witness to people

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I use God's Word as my foundation But how is that first and foremost changed your life as a believer?

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You know, it's interesting you put it that way because it was life -changing And it's about ten years ago now that I first by the grace of God was shown this apologetic

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And what I don't share a lot is that two years prior to that? I started creating this website and it was also a point -and -click website, but it was evidential

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And then I started using some of these arguments with my Christian brothers and sisters. They loved them I'd use them out in the street.

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I use them with my friends who are unbelievers. I get them shoved down my throat Oh, I didn't know why I thought that was so weird and I found out later

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Christians love them because they're Christians Unbelievers didn't love them because they're not Christians and it never affected my faith

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You know I had a strong faith then it affected my desire to share my faith and I shelved the project for about two years

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And then you know a lot of us started after hearing the Bonson Stein debate Yeah, I didn't even know what happened then but I knew it was something different and for me.

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It's just It's just such a relief that you can go there and you know God has commanded us to share our faith to defend our faith

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What a relief it is to know that he's equipped us and I said, you know When I know when people get this apologetic is not when they can win arguments not even when they can argue better It's when they love

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God more because he's equipped us to obey his command to defend our faith You know just by talking about him and not lying about him anymore and all

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Christians could do it That's why there's no office of apologist. There's no office of love your neighbor is either. We're all supposed to be able to do it

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That's right. And so that's what's the big discovery for me is that anybody can do this, you know it changed my life because It's I'm not intimidated to talk to anybody about about Christ to share my faith because it's a powerful power

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That's why it comes with a warning do this with gentleness and respect and I tell people you go to Walmart and you buy a

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Nerf Ball, there's not a lot of warnings on it. You buy a gun you get paid Why did you know why are we given a warning with this apologetic to do with gentleness and respect because you're not talking about the

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Complexity of the eye you're destroying world Because you start with Christ. Amen as Lord set apart

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Christ is Lord. That's always be prepared people leave that part of the verse off so often. Okay, so what comes first?

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theology or philosophy Well theology is the foundation of everything without God you can't even make sense of philosophy and one thing is very interesting because I thought you're gonna ask me what comes first theology or the

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Apologetic because one thing that James White always said is that your theology dictates your apologetic Mm -hmm, and you know the interesting thing with me

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Hmm It was the exact opposite because I grew up in a church where I should have understood Reformed theology and I never did

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It wasn't and thankfully Pentecostal Dutch Reformed RCA But thankfully through this apologetic

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I learned and you know Of course if it's a bad apologetic, it's not gonna work that way. Yeah, but it's a biblical apologetic I learned the authority of Scripture and Then I learned what

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Reformed theology was and then you can explain like I used to think that young earth creationists were cuckoo You asked me, you know 10 12 years ago.

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I thought they were nuts Thankfully and by the grace of God I count myself in that group now and I could defend it strongly and biblically

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Biblically with Christians and with non -christians they go on the authority of his word People aren't embarrassed to share the word of God in public because our

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Bible says a snake talked a donkey talked But they don't realize that that's what closes mouths. You know, we've seen it on the street.

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You quote a scripture verse That's what closes mouth. Yeah Biblically, that's right So so talk to us about the end scene in debating

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Delahunty .com debating Delahunty .com That's not it's called debating Delahunty.

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You could find it I Know you don't like to talk about it, but I want to hear you talk about it

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Well, I I was on the road I was in England for a couple weeks and then I did a conference in Delaware And then

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I did this debate and I was exhausted and that's what I attribute it to but in the last scene of debating

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Delahunty I was preaching a sermon at a church the day after the debate and Well, as you can see in the film,

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I got kind of emotional. Yeah, and I you know, we're big guys Yeah in my household. That's just something that guys do is breaking down So I choked up a little bit and of course

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I attribute it to being tired But it's a you know, it's very dear to my heart Yeah the topic about the sovereignty and the greatness of God Yeah, and I can remember at the end of that church service

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I turned to Marcus who directed and filmed the film I said do not use that scene I haven't said that to him about any other scene

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I said do not use that scene and he sends me the final product and he finishes the film with that very scene

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Seeing me dabbing away tears. I'm glad he did though You know in retrospect I am as well because I saw it and I thought

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I'm really pleased with how that turned out But at the time I thought Well, but I think it shows that you're not just interested in just demolishing someone's world you're interested in their soul

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And I thought that was great. I love that. So well, that's what Marcus said. He said I made you likable Yeah, so he performed a near miracle

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Well, okay so that Okay, so let's maybe help help bring this out because somebody can fall off the wrong side on either side somebody gonna be either a

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Jerk, or they can be a pile of jello Right, and so they in but but there really truly is a righteous line to walk where you have an element where you're supposed to confront the ungodly the wicked arguments people who are coming against Christ and his lordship and Against it in a way that's not like a like a pile of jello.

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You're you're calling to repentance You're confronting people who are railing against Jesus Christ. You're supposed to be able to confront that but in the other hand you you also

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Have to be the kind of person that is Gentle and respectful where necessary.

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So there's there's a con we talked about this at dinner. There's a context where You're on the street at a college campus and somebody is

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Railing on Christ they're they're denigrating the the Word of God. What would have you there's a context for that?

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Were you supposed to call out and breathe down fire? Right, right But then there's another context with the guy who's sitting next to you that's asking genuine questions and maybe even challenging you

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You know, but he's just sitting next to you at a coffee shop So talk about that the proper sort of understanding of a balance and and what are we supposed to do?

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We're confronted with each different scenario. I think it would be nice to have a cookie -cutter Response is it when this happens do this?

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Yeah, but as you know, you never know and the people that you meet sometimes the people that are the most wicked

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You know railing against God the most I think, you know, of course salvation is from the Holy Spirit But I think those people are closer because they have a reason to be angry with God Yeah, see if they're just indifferent if I'm you know arguing for the spongebob is being

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God They laugh and they walk but the fact that they're angry means that they have a problem with God So what

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I try to do is, you know, it depends of course on the situation but I try to Talk to them in a way that gives them a

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Certain amount of respect because for instance I was at Good Friday One guy was saying you guys are crazy.

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You believe that a donkey talking this guy was spitting He was furious, you know, you believe that a man who was dead came back to life and I said to the guy

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You know what? I get it. I said, I know you think I'm crazy. I said I get that I said if you don't start with God, that is crazy

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Oh, and people are afraid to agree with people who are getting angry with him So I try to diffuse it.

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I said if you don't start with God, that is crazy I said but you would admit that the God who breathed the universe into existence can make a donkey talk, right?

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Just yeah, I said so you don't have a problem miracles. You have a problem with the God of miracles Mm -hmm

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I said the problem is when you have a problem with the God of miracles You can't even make sense of your objection and then I got to the apologetic and the situation just you know

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And so I more often than not and the more that I do this the more I try to do that with the person on The street

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I tried to reason with him, but there are people who are just not reasonable and yeah You just take that by a case -by -case scenario, but I don't get that very often, you know

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Thankfully by the I think helping it helps being a big guy. Yeah It's just that you know

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It's funny because there is a couple situations even in how to answer the fool that people from the crew without people are gonna get

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Physical with me, you know in that altercation that I had after that debate The fellow it's not on in the film, but he pats me on the stomach and he goes into the kitchen

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He says I'll be right back two of the guys in the crew thought he was going to get a knife Well, yeah, and they followed him in there and I it was the furthest thing from my mind

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And I think until something happens, I'll probably be that naive. Yeah, you know, I don't want to be but So I tried to defuse those situations, but at some point yeah, you have to call them to repentance and I think there's people who are probably a lot better at doing that than I am and First and I think you know, there's even a place for righteous mockery

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But I would like to be far more Sanctified before I engage in that and I think I probably made the error in engaging in it too much of my youth

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But I think the older I get the more I think that you know, we have to give them This is the analogy I give there's an airplane going along there in that airplane and you're shooting that airplane down You're filling it full of holes if you're a jerk, even if they've been a jerk towards you

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They're not coming to your runway for the gospel. You know, they're ditching it like Hindu like Scientology You know, so we have to be kind so that they come to us and that's the very interesting thing

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I don't know. I don't want to go on and on but when that person has trouble in his life Yeah, who's he going to he's not going to the guy who's talked to him about the complexity of the eye for six hours

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He's going to the guy who spoke the truth to him And that's what this apologetic does and you see it more often than not that when they have tragedy in their life

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They don't go to the guy who they debated They go to the guy says, you know that God exists you need to repent because they know that he was speaking truth

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So, what's the what's the end goal in an apologetics? Encounter.

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What am I? What am I trying to get to every single time? It's it's a it's a call to repentance and faith right to turn to Christ, right?

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So so our apologetic has to be wrapped up in our evangelism

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Absolutely, there's no separation dichotomy between the two some people make the mistake of calling apologetics pre evangelism, right?

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Yeah, and people would ask me early on in my apologetic ministry How do you get from this to the gospel, right?

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And you know, I thought if they're asking me that question, I'm doing it wrong. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, if they have to ask how to get to the gospel from this

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I'm doing it wrong. Yeah So now I realize that a proper biblical apologetic is part of the gospel.

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Yeah, it's part of evangelism So I say for instance when I am deconstructing their ability to know anything without God I saying you're sinning

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You're not giving God glory with every thought in your head with every word you speak That's simple because the gospel is that Jesus Christ came to die.

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It came died to save sinners. Yeah, I'm not a sinner Well, I'm exposing that they are sinners and I can give them the answer and you're showing them how they're sinning

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Right right now in their appeal to logic and their appeal to science, whatever it had not not starting with God Not having him as the reference point of all their thinking.

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Yeah, they're they're in sin right now They're an image -bearer of God who is at war with him and let me show you how and now right from your sin to trust

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In Christ because I love the analogy. I believe it's very comfort to now Do you stop someone on the street and say, you know, I'm gonna give you a triple bypass surgery

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I'm gonna do it for free. Come with me get your hands off me you freak But if you say, you know, this guy just came from the doctor

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He has three plugged arteries gonna be dead in a week without surgery can't afford it. You stop me say I'm a world -famous surgeon

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I like to do this surgery and I like to do it for free. He'll embrace you That's what we do with this apologetic is point out their condition so that the good news makes sense

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The good news makes no sense without the bad. That's right So we're trying to find where as we're talking to them we can highlight the rebellion

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We can highlight the knowledge of God that they're exhibiting as they're talking to you And then that's what we're pointing to touching and calling a repentance of faith and we're demolishing the unbelieving position

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We're showing the futility of abandoning God and calling to repentance rather than saying

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Let's let's put out on the table all of the different parts and pieces of things that you say Cause you to not believe in God or the lack of evidence for God or whatever.

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We're pointing out from the very beginning No, I reject that There's not enough evidence for God in your life because you are displaying that you know him in These ways and you need to turn from sin, you know what

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I ask them sometimes when they say there's not enough evidence for God I say which evidence could convince you of the

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God who says you already have enough evidence Yeah, what could their answer be? There could be no evidence.

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It's logically impossible But you know and one thing that this apologetic does it does not focus on the sinfulness of man

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It focuses on the glory of God And I think if you shine that light to the unbeliever, they can't help but see their sinfulness now, you know, like I said,

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I love The living waters ministry, but one thing that they'll do and I think there's a little bit difference They'll go say have you ever stolen anything?

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What does that make you makes you a thief focuses on the sinfulness of man? Sure. That's the law You know, it shines it upon them, but I say

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I don't say have you ever stolen anything? I said, why is stealing wrong? Because God is not a thief And when you steal you're lying about your creator because we're created to imitate him

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And then you see the countenance of these people changes not just calling them thieves and liars It's saying no God is so good.

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And when you do that, you're misrepresenting your creator And you know, I think that's what this apologetic does as well

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It does not assume that they don't know that God exists It talks about it and you know, the interesting thing is, you know, who's really good who gets this really quick is women

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Because they don't need to win the argument You know, I teach at a men's conference and they go home. They tell their husband or the husbands tell their wives

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Yeah, it's just about you know, believing the authority of Scripture. Everyone knows that God exists the woman gets it So she goes out in the street talking to someone.

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Yeah, you really do know that God exists. No, I don't ma 'am Well, the Bible says you do I'll pray for you You know have a nice day and the guy has to win that argument

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Mm -hmm, you know, it's nice to have the philosophical argument for the philosophy student but the thing is the Thing that the person the person who puts his head in his pillow is not gonna remember the guy about that philosophical argument with him

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He's gonna remember the person who spoke the truth So I had one other question we talked about this at dinner whose kingdom are we building

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I think it's been a hot topic lately, especially on social media A lot of people apparently are more interested in building their own kingdom our

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Christ Kingdom. We talked a bit about the yeah So I just wanted to get your take on that. That's what we've been talking about Yeah, I thought you're going another direction with that.

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No, but that's the thing about this apologetic Yeah Is that there are a lot of ministries that have been involved in doing this apologetic a different way doing apologetics a different way

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And then you approach them you get, you know, some guy from Canada coming down or you know from Arizona explaining this to them yeah, you know, it's really powerful stuff, but you know, we're gonna keep doing it this way and You know what?

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I heard it said is that a lot of these ministries are more interested in their kingdom Than in the kingdom.

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Yeah, and what they don't understand is that you know, we could care less what happens to our own Respective ministry, of course, we want

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God to bless it, right, but it's not about us being better than them It's about us speaking the truth.

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And if that ministry takes the truth and takes off with it, we praise God. Yeah and I think I Don't know that there's just a mentality

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You know in America a lot of building their own kingdom Yeah, rather than glorifying

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God and you know, he building his kingdom through us Yeah, wait, I'll tell us you talked about the difference between Canadians and Americans Remind me

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I forgot See, I don't want to disparage Americans because Canadians have their own things.

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We have an inferiority complex, you know, you can't carry guns But you talk to any Canadian and and they'll say well, you know, did you know that Peter Jennings was an

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American? Do you know that Michael J Fox and they'll go, you know, we're Shatner's they'll say we have an inferiority complex

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But the one big difference is that Americans live vicariously They live through people that live through their children to live through their sports heroes

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They even live through their pastor. See one thing that that you will never see on a Canadian car is my son is an honor student

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Hmm, they'll laugh you off the street really, but there's people living through their children Yeah, you won't see somebody lining up eight hours for a signature from Dale Earnhardt jr

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Wearing all his stuff because they live through their sports hero But the dangers they also live through their pastors and even sadly to say through their apologies you go out you win an argument with Somebody oh you cream that guy.

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Yeah. No, I didn't God did through me. That's the danger I say, you know what the beauty of this apologetic is you glorify

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God, but when you go out there you're gonna win arguments Yeah, you know what the danger of this apologetic is you're gonna win arguments

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Yeah, and you're gonna think it's you right and that's why I bring them to Luke 17. We're unworthy servants We're just doing our duty.

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Yeah, so but hopefully with this apologetically glorify God and it takes off like wildfire All right brothers