February 2, 2023 Show with Dr. Sam Waldron on “How Then Should We Worship?”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:03

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

00:11

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

00:16

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:49

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

01:00

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

01:10

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

01:15

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:20

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this second day of February 2023.

01:30

I'm thrilled to have as a returning guest today my old friend Dr. Sam Waldron, president and professor of systematic theology at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky, and he's also the pastor at Grace Reform Baptist Church in Owensboro, Kentucky.

01:51

Today we are going to be discussing the theme of one of Dr. Waldron's books,

01:57

How Then Should We Worship, which is also the theme of an upcoming conference in Kentucky, and we are looking forward to discussing that as well, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

02:10

Sam Waldron. Thank you, Chris, it's good to be with you and good to talk about this important subject in our conference.

02:17

Well, first of all, tell our listeners about Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro. We have our mission to see men trained to serve the

02:34

Lord Jesus Christ and the world. Our vision is to raise up both serious

02:40

Christians and to train them for ministry in the church, but also, and in some ways primarily, our goal is to provide men with a normative theological curriculum that will prepare them for the

02:52

Christian ministry. We talk about ourselves as being confessional, we talk about ourselves as being accessible since our courses are available online and through Zoom across the world, and in fact, 20 % of our students are from outside the

03:12

United States, and we talk about ourselves as being affordable as well, and this allows men to stay out of debt, stay on their jobs, stay in their churches, and still get a good training for the ministry by men with advanced degrees in the areas where they're studying and where they're teaching.

03:33

And I'm also delighted that on your faculty, there is a man that is near and dear to my heart.

03:42

He's one of my pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Pastor John Miller, who is

03:49

Professor of Practical Theology, so I'm very delighted about that as well, and I think he's president of your board too, isn't he?

03:58

Well, actually, we're in a little bit of transition. We've just announced that John is going to be our vice president as of the first of the year and our academic dean, and I'm very, very thankful for that.

04:12

Since he's taking those positions, he's transitioning from chairman of the board to just an ordinary board member while he trains our new chairman to take that position, so I'm really thankful for all the help that John has given through the years, and his heart for the ministry.

04:33

We wouldn't be where we are today without his help and without his heart, so we're very thankful for him.

04:39

Yes, and the congregation at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania is very grateful for him as well, and he would have been with us today serving as my co -host as we interview you on this theme, but he is laboring for the gospel in Mexico right now, so he was unable to join us.

04:59

But if anybody wants more details on Grace Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky, go to cbtseminary .org,

05:11

cbtseminary .org. Now tell us about this exciting conference that you are having on the same theme,

05:21

How Then Should We Worship? Yes, we started Covenant Conference last year, and it was hosted by a church in Louisville, Kentucky.

05:32

This year it's going to be hosted in Louisville, Kentucky, again at Reformed Baptist Church of Louisville.

05:40

We're very thankful for Pastor Sevastio there. He's a member of our board and a fine pastor of a really good church up there.

05:52

One of our closest sister churches, and we're going to be hosting the conference at their facilities.

05:59

They'll be hosting the conference at their facilities this year, and Pastor Sevastio, who, as I said, is a fine preacher, is going to be preaching our opening sermon on the

06:10

Thursday of the conference, and we look forward to that conference. I want to invite everybody to come.

06:16

I think it's going to be well worthwhile. It'll be March 23 to 25, beginning on Thursday afternoon, going through Saturday morning, and since it's in Louisville, it's accessible from a lot of places by air or by car, and so we're thankful for that.

06:37

So the conference itself is being held in Louisville then? That's right.

06:44

That's right. The facilities of Reformed Baptist Church of Louisville allow us to accommodate about 350 guests, and so people who are thinking of coming should be signing up and registering even now because we hope to max that out this year if we can.

07:08

Well, just to whet the appetite of our listeners, the panel of speakers not only includes

07:14

Sam Waldron, my guest today, but also my dear friend dating back to 1996,

07:21

Conrad M. Bayway, who I have often said on this program and elsewhere, I believe, is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet

07:30

Earth, and they will be joined by the aforementioned

07:36

John Miller, my pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, my friend Dr.

07:42

Tom Nettles, who is a brilliant historian that I have had on this program many times,

07:49

Pastor Jim Sevastio, who you just heard mentioned, who is hosting the conference at the

07:54

Reformed Baptist Church of Louisville, Kentucky. I have not yet interviewed Pastor Sevastio, but I look forward to,

08:00

God willing, doing that in the near future. And Scott Annual, who I have interviewed on the program and look forward to having him back on the program.

08:10

Gotten to know him a little bit recently as he has joined the team at G3 Ministries, and I am going to be once again manning my exhibitor's booth for Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio at the next

08:24

G3 conference, the national conference in Atlanta, Georgia, this coming

08:29

September. So I am delighted about that as well. But if anybody wants more information about this, go to cbtseminary .org,

08:39

cbtseminary .org, and if you want to specifically find out about the conference, add forward slash covcon2023, that's

08:54

C -O -V for abbreviation for covenant, and con, C -O -N, abbreviation for conference, 2023 forward slash.

09:04

So add that to the cbtseminary .org for the direct page for the conference, and God willing, we'll be mentioning that again later on in the program.

09:15

Last but not least, we don't want to forget for you to tell us more about Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky, where you are a pastor.

09:26

Well, thank you, brother. And let me just mention, we're going to be talking today as we go on the program about the theme of our conference,

09:35

I don't want to forget to mention that, as how then should we worship. That's also the title of a book that finally came out this last year that is really important to me in terms of its subject.

09:48

But let me tell you a little bit about Grace Reformed Baptist Church. We're the replant of another small church that was out in the county, what we would say in Michigan, out in the sticks.

10:02

And in 2013, actually late 2012, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky was born.

10:09

I joined it a month or two later with some other folks. And we're really excited.

10:16

You said that I'm the pastor. Actually, I'm one of three pastors there, just to give my brothers in the ministry here their due,

10:26

Pastor Ben Carlson and Pastor Joe Wilson, our laborers with me in the ministry here.

10:33

We're really excited right now because we hope to be moving into a new facility come

10:41

April. We don't know the exact date yet, but God has enabled us to purchase and remodel an existing church building that's right in the heart of Owensboro and highly visible.

10:55

Anybody that knows Owensboro will know when I say it's at the corner of the Bypass and Frederica, just how visible it is.

11:02

And we're really thankful for the way God has worked all things together for good.

11:07

We hope to move into our new church building in around the 1st of April.

11:14

We're not dead sure yet how those things tend to go, but we're going to move in the 1st of April.

11:20

And we're just thankful that we'll be moving in with no debt whatsoever.

11:25

God has provided, well, it'll be about $1 .5 million by the time we get in from kind Christians, donors to the people in our church.

11:39

The seminary has helped raise money for the church as well. And so we're really thankful for what

11:44

God has done for us in this way. Praise God. Well, I'm going to give our email address right away if anybody has a question that they would like to ask of Dr.

11:56

Sam Waldron on worship. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

12:05

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

12:15

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

12:22

Well, first of all, I'd like to ask you, Dr. Waldron, why you were compelled to write a book on this theme.

12:30

Both you and I are fully aware that there are quite a number of books already available in print, not only written by men who have entered into eternity with Christ many years ago, perhaps even sometimes centuries ago, but also men who are still living, even from a theologically reformed perspective and even from a perspective of affirming the regulative principle of worship.

12:58

Why did you feel the need or think there is a need to have another volume on the shelves of Christians, on the shelves of their libraries at home, to delve once again into this topic?

13:16

Oh, that's a great question, Chris, and I have, I have a number of things

13:22

I'd like to say about it. Well, first of all, there's no more important subject in itself.

13:32

It's our highest calling as human beings to worship God. And so the subject itself is enormously important.

13:42

And the proper way of worshiping God then is important as well, as important as this theme is.

13:52

But I was led to write this book, first of all, by a sense that among reformed -ish or reformed writers and theologians, there was a drift away from what was known historically as the regulative principle.

14:13

I felt like that drift was visible among some Presbyterian writers.

14:19

I thought that that drift was visible in the neo -Calvinist, the new

14:24

Calvinist movement, some of whom actually, whether they know it or not, deliberately and directly reject the regulative principle of worship in favor of the normative principle.

14:38

And so on the one side, I saw that happening. On the other side,

14:45

I saw a reaction against that going in the direction of adopting views that I thought were unnecessary applications, illegitimate applications, really, of the regulative principle.

15:04

But I saw Reformed Brothers, Reformed Baptists going in the direction of non -instrumentalism, saying that the use of any musical instruments in worship is illegitimate.

15:16

I saw Reformed Brothers moving in the direction of exclusive psalmody. And I wanted to give my own witness against those movements.

15:27

I should say, as one of my fellow pastors said recently, we don't at Grace Reformed Baptist Church believe in exclusive psalmody, but we do believe in inclusive psalmody.

15:39

And that's one of the reasons Scott Adial is actually preaching at our conference this year, because he's done some great work on the psalms and how the psalms should be used in our worship and how we should sing the psalms.

15:51

But we're agreed that we're both inclusive psalmist and not exclusive psalmist.

15:57

And so we believe that non -inspired hymnody, as it's called by some people sometimes, may be used in worship as long as it is scriptural in its teaching and tone.

16:13

So I saw problems happening on both ends. And then

16:18

I was becoming convinced of a few principles that I even felt that they needed to be more widely understood in our own

16:30

Reformed Baptist community. I don't have any big criticisms of my brothers in the

16:35

Reformed Baptist community that will with me hold the regulative principle, but I did feel that there were some issues that could be helpfully addressed and more clearly understood even there.

16:47

So these are some of the reasons why I wrote my book. Now, even though I have addressed this issue on multiple occasions on my show,

16:57

I think it still bears repeating. If you could give us, for the sake of clarity, especially for those who may be new listeners to this program, they may be totally unfamiliar with the terms that you used, regulative principle and normative principle, if you could define and compare and contrast those two things.

17:17

Sure. Well, I think the best and most important statement of the regulative principle was found in Chapter 22 of the 1689

17:30

Baptist Confession, which at this point is identical to the Westminster Confession, only it's

17:38

Chapter 21 in the Westminster Confession. And here's the key statement.

17:45

The acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself and so limited by his own revealed will that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan under any visible representations or any other way not prescribed in the

18:06

Holy Scripture. That's the key language right there. If we are to worship God aright, what we do in worship as to its parts and elements has to be actually prescribed in the

18:19

Holy Scriptures. The normative principle says that while we must not do anything that God forbids or prohibits, we may do many things beyond what he prescribes.

18:34

And that's the fundamental difference. It's the difference between the Puritans and the

18:39

Anglicans in England in the 17th century. It's the difference between the

18:45

Lutherans who held basically the normative principle and the Reformed who held a much stricter view of worship on the continent.

18:54

And so this is the regulative principle. It's opposed to the normative principle.

19:00

It's opposed to the idea that as long as we don't do anything that the Bible prohibits, that the

19:08

Bible says is sinful or wrong, we may do practically anything we want in worship. And even when

19:15

I put it that way, your listeners should realize just how big a hole that opens up as for the proverbial hole that you can drive a truck through in terms of the distortions and perversions of worship that it allows.

19:34

Now just also for the sake of clarity, if you could let me know your personal positions on a couple of things.

19:45

As we've already mentioned, there are advocates of the regulative principle who believe that if you are going to be logically consistent and faithful to that principle, you must be an exclusive psalmist and you must believe in exclusive a cappella worship without the aid of musical instruments.

20:05

You've already made it clear you don't believe in those two requirements of the regulative principle or those two matters which some believe are requirements.

20:19

But how about choirs, quintets, quartets, duets, or special music by a single singer or even a musician?

20:33

There have been those throughout history who held to the regulative principle who even are opposed to those things.

20:40

So I was just wondering what your thoughts are on those matters. Oh, Chris, yeah, these are very debatable and disputable issues.

20:52

Let me start where I think the Bible starts. The key thing, the clear thing that the

21:03

Bible prescribes is that congregational singing be a part of worship.

21:15

And whatever we say about choirs and duets and trios and solos and all of that stuff, whatever we say about that, the key central thing that must not be compromised when it comes to the worship of the church with regard to singing is that there must be congregational singing, must be congregational.

21:39

The singing must be congregational. We must speak to ourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

21:46

And it's the whole congregation that is to sing. I'm personally not a big fan of choirs and so forth, and trios and solos and duets and so forth, as you said.

22:04

But I'm not going to say, and I don't think

22:09

I can say that the Bible clearly prohibits those things.

22:17

But, of course, what we need is an example of that or a precedent of some kind in Scripture.

22:25

And I don't see such a precedent in New Testament worship.

22:32

Yes, in Old Testament worship, there were priestly choirs. But now, of course, the point is that in the new covenant, the whole of the church is a royal priesthood.

22:44

But now, this would get into all sorts of debatable issues. One man leading the church, is he singing a solo?

22:54

No, he's not singing a solo, but he is leading the church. A choir that is used to lead the church in its congregational singing,

23:02

I don't want to contribute to, how can

23:08

I put this, a kind of persnickety view of the regular principle that says if another church thinks that there's some sort of biblical warrant for a choir or use for a solo or something sometime,

23:27

I don't want to condemn them as not believing in the regular principle. I think there's room for disagreement about what the

23:34

Bible does prescribe and so forth. But the key thing is congregational singing.

23:42

My big problem with a lot of what's going on today and the gospel teams and gospel bands that are used so widely is, frankly, they don't support or contribute to congregational singing.

23:58

They actually, I think, are contrary to it. There's a sense in which in some churches you go in and you don't know if you're supposed to be there singing as a congregation or if you're listening to some sort of concert.

24:12

And that's unfortunate. So I'm opposed to gospel teams either being and bands displayed so prominently or the music played so loudly that it actually is contrary to the great and central duty on this matter of congregational singing.

24:33

Yeah, it's interesting that you said that because I have been on some occasion in reformed churches that are playing the traditional music, classical

24:45

Christian music, using the great hymns of the faith, but the musical instruments are so loud

24:53

I can't even hear my own voice. Now, that may be of great benefit to those near me that they can't hear my voice, but I'm singing and it's as if I'm just feeling my mouth moving, but I don't even hear anything because the musical instruments are so explosively loud.

25:13

Well, you know, that's my own testimony too, Chris. I think, thankfully, I have not been in a lot of places where I thought these principles were being blatantly violated.

25:23

I have been in a couple of places like that. But the two things that stand out in my memory are a

25:30

Baptist church and then a reformed church where the organ was being played so loudly that I felt that it was a violation of the regulative principle.

25:41

Wow. And you said something moments ago that clarified your opening definition of the regulative principle.

25:53

Originally, you said that the regulative principle, and of course,

25:58

I'm paraphrasing here, is basically stating that we must use the

26:05

Holy Scriptures as our blueprint for worship. But isn't it even more specifically that we have to use the

26:13

New Testament as our blueprint of worship? And because the

26:18

New Testament does include some Old Testament practices, like the singing of psalms, we include that.

26:26

But when it's not repeated in the New Testament, we do not include it. Obviously, we'd be involved in all kinds of rituals that people could rightly charge us of being

26:37

Judaizers in some way. Sure. It's clear from the New Testament and from the

26:43

Bible that the commanded worship of the Old Testament and what is commanded in the

26:51

New Testament, there's a transition there, transformation that must be taken into account, and that the first place and the primary place we have to go to understand what

27:06

God has prescribed in worship is to the New Testament. Now, that has to be qualified.

27:14

I mean, some of the Ten Commandments are relevant to worship, of course, and in some ways, some might argue all of them are, but certainly some of them are, one through four, and perhaps the

27:30

Ninth Commandment as well, thou shalt not bear false witness, are relevant to worship and so forth, no doubt.

27:38

So we're not denying that the great moral principles stated in the Ten Commandments are relevant to New Testament worship.

27:46

But when we start talking about temple tabernacle worship, when we start talking about priesthood and sacrifice, then we have to talk about the abolition of those things, and we have to say it's not the

28:03

Old Testament in terms of its detailed ceremonial laws that governs

28:08

New Testament worship, it's the New Testament. Now, I recently had a student write me a paper arguing that there are things to be learned from the

28:19

Old Testament ceremonial law and the sacrificial system that may be helpful in ordering worship and liturgy and so forth, and that may be true, but it still is not the primary place, and we have to be very careful about how we use those kind of things, and I think there's actually many of the problems with Roman Catholicism and its worship and other highly liturgical places of worship is that there has been a tendency to want to try to emulate

28:57

Old Testament worship rather than realizing that now in the new age, those who worship

29:05

God, God is seeking those to worship Him, that must worship Him in spirit and truth, and John chapter 4 makes very plain some of the great distinctions between Old Testament worship and New Testament worship.

29:20

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break right now, and if you have a question for Dr.

29:26

Sam Waldron, please submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

29:37

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

29:46

Let's say you are in disagreement over your own church's approach to worship, and you'd rather not bring into the public consciousness your name and identity.

30:02

I could easily understand that. In fact, if you do disagree with your own church's approach to worship,

30:08

I would insist that you remain anonymous. I do not want to have only one side of the story present and have a church publicly identified and so on.

30:18

So we understand those reasons for remaining anonymous. You might even be the pastor, and you have come to disagree with the way that your own congregation is worshiping, maybe even disagree with your fellow elders over it.

30:32

Well, those are obvious reasons why you would possibly want to remain anonymous, but for those of you asking general questions about what the

30:41

Bible has to say, about what the confessions of faith have to say, about what my guest Sam Waldron personally believes, please include your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

30:53

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Dr. Sam Waldron and How Then Should We Worship?

31:15

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

31:25

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

31:38

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

31:51

And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

31:59

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

32:04

G3ISIR, that's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

32:12

Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

32:18

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

32:23

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

32:28

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

32:49

The Prince of Preachers Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Growing a beard is a habit most natural, scriptural, manly, and beneficial.

32:57

Grace and peace to all the Iron Sharpens Iron listeners. This is Tony with thestandardbeardcare .com.

33:03

That's right, thestandardbeardcare .com is a Christ -exalting, better -known, and simple name in beard care.

33:09

So if you have a beard, know a guy with a beard, or ladies, if you're married to a man with a beard, head over to thestandardbeardcare .com.

33:16

Check out the vast array of all -natural, handcrafted products to make that beard scriptural, manly, and beneficial.

33:24

When you do so, you will help to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. When you use the promo code IRON at checkout, you will receive free shipping to anywhere in the lower 48, and 10 % of your donations will go back to Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

33:39

So head over to thestandardbeardcare .com, where the standard is the standard.

33:59

Hi, I'm Brian McLaughlin, President of the SecureComm Group, and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

34:09

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

34:23

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

34:33

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

34:38

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

34:45

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network, whether it's a

34:53

Wi -Fi or a hardwire network. We'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

35:00

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates.

35:09

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

35:20

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

35:28

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

35:34

Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

35:50

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

36:01

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

36:08

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

36:21

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

36:27

Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

36:34

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

36:41

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com

36:55

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

37:05

Every Christian who's serious about the Reformed faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

37:14

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

37:21

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

37:33

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

37:44

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

38:02

Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

38:08

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. If you're near retirement or thinking about retiring, you probably have questions.

38:30

How do you make your savings last? How much should you take out and when? You're ready for retirement, but are your finances?

38:38

Art Amundsen, an Edward Jones financial advisor, can help you build a strategy to help make sure your finances keep up with your long -term needs.

38:47

Do what it takes to get there. Now it's time to make the most of retirement. Visit edwardjones .com,

38:54

that's edwardjones .com, or call 717 -258 -4688, 717 -258 -4688.

39:04

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are forever grateful for the generous financial support of Art Amundsen, Edward Jones financial advisor in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

39:16

Call 717 -258 -4688 today. Hello, my name is

39:23

Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

39:31

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

39:38

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

39:48

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

39:55

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

40:04

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

40:10

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

40:16

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

40:23

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keach's Catechism and the

40:29

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie Podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

40:39

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

40:49

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening. Welcome back. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is

40:56

Dr. Sam Waldron, President and Professor of Systematic Theology at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky, where he also serves as the pastor of Grace Reformed Baptist Church in that fine city.

41:14

We are discussing Dr. Waldron's new book, How Then Should We Worship?,

41:20

which is published by 10 of those. Interesting name for a publisher. And if you have any questions regarding this very important topic, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

41:34

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

41:41

We do have a listener. I usually only give the first names of listeners when they submit questions, but since this is a former sponsor of Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio, who moved out of the fine state of Pennsylvania to Forest, Virginia, the company that she and her husband owned and operated,

42:09

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, still sponsors this program, but this listener no longer owns that company.

42:18

It has been sold to different owners, but our listener in Forest, Virginia is

42:24

Patricia Jennings, wife of Todd Jennings, the former owners for many years of CVBBS .com,

42:32

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. And Patricia says, what does reverence and awe mean to you?

42:45

Are you there, Dr. Waldron? Yes, I'm here. That's a great question. There's a very good book.

42:54

I think it's by Daryl Hart, and I think the name of it is Worship with Reverence and Awe.

43:06

And this is an excellent question. I think you could respond to it in a number of ways, and I think there might be a number of appropriate responses to it.

43:18

One of the things I would like to say about it is it means that when we come into the place of the formal corporate worship of God, we have to recognize that God is there in a way that he is not in the world in general.

43:38

The Bible promises and speaks of a special, awesome, and gracious presence of God in the formal gatherings of his people.

43:48

It's there in Matthew 1820, which is talking about the church when it says, where two or three are gathered together in my name, there

43:56

I am in the midst. And Paul's interpretation of that passage can be found in 1

44:03

Corinthians 5, especially verses 3 to 5. And what he makes clear there is that the reason the assembly of the church is the place in which church discipline must be enacted is because it's there that Christ is especially present.

44:23

And so when we come into the special presence of God, it is, of course, necessary, legitimate, required that like Moses beside the burning bush, like Joshua in the presence of the captain of the host of the

44:41

Lord, we take our sandals off our feet and recognize the special presence of God.

44:48

And when we do that, some of the parts of worship necessarily flow out of that.

44:57

You know, I'm convinced, and I've not always been convinced,

45:02

I see it much more clearly that worship begins with an invocation and acknowledgement of the special presence of God.

45:15

And once that's acknowledged, there must be there must be the confession of our sins so that we draw near to God with clean hands and a clean heart.

45:25

So the public confession of sins follows from that. And so I think that worshipping

45:32

God with reverence and all, first of all, means the acknowledgement of his special presence in the gathered church, and then the appropriate responses to that, which are in the first place, adoration, the second place confession of sin, and the third place, thanksgiving and intercession and the offering of the spiritual sacrifices that compose the covenant worship.

45:59

That's a brief answer that could be expanded on in many different directions. But that's the first way

46:04

I think I would respond to this lady's questions.

46:10

Well, thank you so much, Patty. And guess what? You have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing,

46:18

How Then Should We Worship by Dr. Sam Waldron, compliments of 10 of those publishers.

46:26

And by the way, I want to let our listeners know that if you do not have the opportunity to win a copy of this book, we have been provided with a limited number of free copies to give away to listeners with questions today by the generosity of 10 of those publishing.

46:45

If you don't have a chance or an opportunity to win one of those books, I've got some more good news.

46:52

10 of those is offering a 50 % discount today during this interview, and I'm assuming until their operation of business hours is over.

47:07

But that's 10ofthose .com. 10ofthose .com is the website where you can go for the 50 % discount.

47:15

But Patty, you have a free copy coming to you. Just make sure that we receive your full mailing address in Forrest, Virginia.

47:23

And your former company, CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, will ship that book out to you at no charge to you or to us.

47:34

And don't be such a stranger, Patty. Keep those questions coming in. It's been a long time since we've heard from you.

47:40

We have an anonymous listener who says, I've been having some heated discussion about the kind of worship we experience in the church where I'm a member.

47:54

And I try to approach this with the greatest of respect to those who disagree with me, but tensions do at times get a bit high.

48:04

I was wondering how you respond to the claim that God has a different attitude towards worship in the

48:14

New Covenant. We are far more free to worship and be more creative than God permitted in the

48:21

Old Testament because we do not have God executing people like he did with Nadab and Abihu who burst into flame when they offered strange incense to the

48:34

Lord. Those kinds of things never happen today. So they assume, therefore, that since God does not execute people, he has a different mindset towards the freeness and liberty in our worship.

48:48

How do you respond? Well, that's a great question.

48:54

I think he's dealing with a common misunderstanding and misconception, which ought to be undermined, first of all, by the fact that the

49:07

God of the New Testament is not a different God than the God of the Old Testament. And we still read in the

49:14

New Testament that our God is a consuming fire. And this is what he was in Leviticus 10 with Nadab and Abihu.

49:26

And so, obviously, we don't have people bursting into flames.

49:32

But that didn't happen all the time with false worship in the Old Testament, did it? There were signal times.

49:40

There were significant times when God did punish those who violated the commands he had given in worship.

49:49

This was true with Cain in Genesis chapter four. It's true with Nadab and Abihu.

49:58

It's true when, was it

50:03

Perez? I think it was Perez. Put his hand on the ark to study it.

50:09

Uzzah. When they were getting it the wrong way. Yeah, that was Uzzah. Yeah, Uzzah, okay.

50:16

So, we don't have this happening all the time in the

50:22

Old Testament. And so, I think this notion, first of all, tends to say that somehow

50:31

God has changed. And that certainly is not true. Then we have to say that some of the clearest testimonies against false worship can be found in the

50:44

New Testament. Paul's great statement needs to be studied in Colossians 2, 20 to 23, where he explicitly condemns in the midst of many other important statements about worship.

50:59

Will worship, that is to say, worshiping God according to the dictates and requirements of one's own will, rather than, and according to the traditions of men, rather than according to the teaching of the

51:12

Holy Spirit. And so, God, I think, still requires, the principle is still the same, that God must be worshiped in a way that he prescribes, and we cannot add to his worship parts and elements that have no precedent in the word of God.

51:37

And so, that's the way I would begin to respond to a question like that.

51:45

Well, anonymous listener, please send me an email with your full name and mailing address, obviously this will remain private, so that CVBBS .com

51:57

can ship out to you a free copy of the book we are addressing, How Then Should We Worship?

52:03

And let me give you the subtitle, I've been failing to do that. The Regulative Principle and Required Parts of the

52:09

Church's Corporate Worship. Very important subtitle by our guest, Sam Waldron, and if you give us that full mailing address, we will ship out to you a free copy of that, and if you are a first -time questioner, you'll also get a free

52:24

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB. And I have a suggestion for you, since you are having disagreement with people in your own church about this issue,

52:38

I'm assuming it may include elders as well, why not go to 10ofthose .com

52:43

and order more copies for the 50 % discount so you can give out books to those with whom you are disagreeing at a less expensive price.

52:54

That's 10ofthose .com and you'll get 50 % off. We have to go to our midway break right now, please be patient with us folks, this is the break in the show that's always longer than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

53:08

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break because they air their own public service announcements, that's

53:15

Grace Life Radio, airs their own public service announcements and other things that localize geographically this program to Lake City, Florida, and while they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

53:28

Please use this time wisely, try to respond to as many of our advertisers as possible, write down the contact information given in the ad so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers, and please thank them for sponsoring this program, that will go a long way.

53:46

And send in your questions to Sam Waldron at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

53:55

Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages. Yeah, back together again.

54:11

James White of Alfenbega Ministries here, I'm very excited to announce that my long -time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

54:22

G3 National Conference, that's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

54:35

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

54:47

And there's more great news, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee, go to g3min .org,

54:57

that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR, that's

55:04

G3ISIR for the 30 % discount. Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all

55:11

Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

55:18

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

55:25

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

55:52

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

56:01

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

56:11

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

56:18

It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism, it is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

56:29

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

56:40

For details on the eight -volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

56:49

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

56:56

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the

57:01

Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.

57:27

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

57:32

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

57:41

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

57:46

NASB. This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast and the

57:52

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Glendale, Texas and the

58:01

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia and the

58:08

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Andrew Rapport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries and the

58:17

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Romaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee and the

58:26

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Christopher Cookston, pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon and the

58:37

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania and the

58:45

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

58:50

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

58:57

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

59:06

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

59:23

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

59:32

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

59:38

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

59:44

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

59:50

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

01:00:05

Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

01:00:22

King James Bible. This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

01:00:33

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

01:00:38

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

01:00:47

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

01:00:56

You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of 35 dollars or more.

01:01:04

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

01:01:11

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

01:01:38

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:01:48

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

01:01:56

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

01:02:02

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

01:02:07

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

01:02:22

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

01:02:30

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

01:02:38

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

01:02:47

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

01:03:12

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

01:03:20

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

01:03:28

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

01:03:39

That's why Truth Love Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

01:03:44

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

01:03:56

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:04:17

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:04:26

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:04:34

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:04:48

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

01:04:55

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:05:02

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:05:11

That's liyfc .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:05:28

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

01:05:38

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

01:05:45

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

01:05:51

Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

01:06:01

Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

01:06:10

Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

01:06:16

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

01:06:27

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

01:06:37

For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

01:06:45

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

01:07:14

SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.

01:07:21

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, closed -circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

01:07:35

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

01:07:45

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

01:07:50

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

01:07:57

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network, whether it's a

01:08:05

Wi -Fi or hardwire network. We'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

01:08:12

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners and their associates.

01:08:21

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

01:08:32

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

01:08:41

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

01:08:46

Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.

01:09:05

Charles Hedgens Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

01:09:13

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

01:09:21

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:09:28

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:09:40

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:09:46

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

01:09:53

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:10:02

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

01:10:08

And Solid Ground Christian Books not only brings back into print and publishes nothing but the finest in Christian literature dating back to the

01:10:17

Protestant Reformation and extending forward to our present day, including such modern -day authors as Dr.

01:10:23

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, they also carry books by other publishers, including those that have been written by our guest today,

01:10:33

Dr. Sam Waldron. And some of those books are Two Things You Must Do to be

01:10:39

Saved, How to Communicate Essential Gospel Truths to the Lost by Sam Waldron, and also

01:10:46

A Reformed Baptist Manifesto, The New Covenant Constitution of the Church, which

01:10:52

Dr. Waldron wrote with Dr. Richard Barcelos. To Be Continued, Tongues, Signs, Wonders, Are They Operative in the

01:11:01

Church Today? And also, there is a book that you should get a hold of written by Dr.

01:11:09

Waldron. In fact, one year at my Iron Sharpens Iron radio free pastor's luncheon, this book was given out to the pastors in attendance,

01:11:19

A Man as Priest in His Own Home. I'm sorry, Dr. Waldron, did you say something? No, sir.

01:11:27

I'm just back on right now. Okay. A Man as Priest in His Home, a

01:11:34

Preeminent Challenge Facing Every Christian Husband and Father. That's another book that Dr.

01:11:39

Waldron wrote with Benjamin Hoke. Well, if you want any of those books or if you want to see the very wide selection of other books that they carry, go to solid -ground -books .com,

01:11:52

purchase frequently, purchase generously. Always mention that you heard about this fine publishing ministry from Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

01:12:02

Before I return to Dr. Waldron and our conversation, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

01:12:08

First of all, if you really love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm urging you please to go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:12:17

click support, then click, click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

01:12:26

And if you prefer snail mail, sending in a physical check to a physical address, then there will be also a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:12:40

where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Also, if you want to advertise with us, whether it's your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, perhaps it's a private practice like a law firm or a medical firm, or just a special event that you want to promote, well, whatever the case may be, as long as whatever it is that you desire to advertise is compatible with what

01:13:05

I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign immediately because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

01:13:15

You don't have to believe exactly as I do, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what

01:13:21

I believe. So send me an email if that is the case with you to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:13:26

and put advertising in the subject line. I want to quickly remind you that I never want anybody listening to give their own church where they are a member less money than you're accustomed to giving your church every

01:13:41

Lord's Day in order to give Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a financial gift. Never do that.

01:13:46

In other words, never cut in to the money that you have set aside to give to your own church in order to bless us.

01:13:54

Please never do that. And also, if you're really struggling to survive financially, wait until you are back on your feet and more stable financially before you send us a gift.

01:14:02

There are two things that are very clear in the Bible about finances. You must provide for your church and your family.

01:14:09

Providing for my radio show is not a command, obviously. But if you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you do have extra money collecting interest in the bank, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, please share some of that money with us if you really love the show and you want us to stick around.

01:14:27

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click to donate now. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a

01:14:33

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky, well,

01:14:43

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of faithful churches, and I've helped many people in our audience in all parts of the world find churches that are biblically faithful.

01:14:53

Sometimes they're just a couple of minutes from where they live. And if that's the case with you, you are without a solid church home, please send me an email to chrisarns and at gmail .com

01:15:01

and put, I need a church in the subject line. Also, I want to mention, if you live anywhere near Milton, Florida, or you can travel to Milton, Florida, please put on your calendar the upcoming conference that's being held by our friends at First Love Ministries.

01:15:21

They're having their first annual Bible conference examining the new birth, and that includes such speakers as Pastor Joseph Jakowicz, the founder of First Love Ministries, which also operates

01:15:36

First Love Radio, who live streams this show every day. And there are many other speakers on that roster as well.

01:15:43

The time and dates will all be at firstloveministries .org, firstloveministries .org,

01:15:52

firstloveministries .org. And it's March 3rd through the 5th, by the way, in Milton, Florida.

01:15:59

I hope that as many of you will attend that as possible, and if you register, please mention that you heard about this on Chris Arnzen's program,

01:16:08

Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And now we are back with Dr. Sam Waldron, and we are discussing how then should we worship.

01:16:18

And if you have a question of your own, please submit it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:16:24

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

01:16:31

Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. Dr. Waldron, a previous questioner brought up how there is a conflict in his church about those, or between those who believe in the regulative principle and those that believe in a freer way to worship.

01:16:57

Those on the other side claiming that since we don't have God doing things like having violators of his worship commands burst into flame, as did

01:17:11

Nadab and Abihu for offering strange incense in the Old Testament, therefore we must have freer worship in the

01:17:18

New Testament, just because we believe in the regulative principle does not mean,

01:17:25

I'm sure you would agree, that there is no freedom at all in worship, as if we are somehow saddened that we are being stifled and held prisoner to something with an exaggerated form of strictness when we worship.

01:17:44

It's just that we have to be careful that it is biblical. Am I off base here? No, I think you're right.

01:17:51

That's something else that needs to be said. Look, the New Testament talks of the extensive ceremonial laws and civil laws under which

01:18:02

Israel was placed as a burden, as the kind of thing that was necessary for child training.

01:18:14

It is a burden. It is a vexation for adults to be placed under the kind of requirements that are intended to train children.

01:18:24

In some sense, Paul speaks in Galatians 4 of the church, having come to its majority and not being a minor child under a schoolmaster like Old Testament Israel was.

01:18:40

I think there's an element of truth in what you're saying. I certainly do. The requirements for worship are simple, and our worship is simpler.

01:18:52

It's not external, with all the laws that govern the externalities of Old Testament worship.

01:19:00

There's a simplicity about New Covenant worship that does mean, in some sense,

01:19:07

I think that there's a freedom about it. Let's not mistake what we mean by that.

01:19:12

It's a freedom under God's law. It's a freedom under the prescriptions for worship.

01:19:20

There are prescriptions for worship in the New Testament. The principle of what is commanded is required, and what is not commanded is forbidden, as G .I.

01:19:33

Williamson, is still basically true. We need to have not explicit commands, but we do need to have commands, examples, or precedents for things taking place in worship in the

01:19:48

New Testament Church, found in the New Testament, if we're going to practice those things in our worship.

01:19:58

There's another principle that may touch on what you're talking about, and that's the principle of the important distinction between the parts or elements of worship and the circumstances of worship.

01:20:15

Once more, the Confession is very helpful here. We should always read chapter 22 -1 in comparison with chapter 1, paragraph 6, which speaks of the sufficiency of Scripture, and in that way speaks of the regulative principle, when it says, "...the

01:20:38

whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life is either expressly set down, or necessarily contained in the

01:20:47

Holy Scriptures, onto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the

01:20:53

Spirit or traditions of men." But then you have this qualifying statement with regard to the sufficiency of Scripture, and in that way, with regard to the regulative principle, which is the sufficiency of Scripture applied to worship.

01:21:08

Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the

01:21:17

Word. And then there's this important statement, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God and government of the

01:21:28

Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the

01:21:37

Word, which are always to be observed. And so, yes, with regard to not the parts and elements, but with regard to the circumstances of worship, there is liberty to apply the parts of worship in ways that are culturally appropriate to the circumstances of the

01:22:02

Church that's involved. The confession makes a distinction, and we must make a distinction between the parts and the circumstances of worship.

01:22:13

Let me give you one illustration of where this becomes important. There are those who argue against the use of all musical accompaniment in worship, instrumental accompaniment in worship, because they say it's not a part of worship.

01:22:33

And I would grant their argument at this point. In the New Testament. In the

01:22:38

New Testament, that's right. Because the Old Testament accompaniments seem to have in some sense, a divine command behind them.

01:22:50

But that those Old Testament instrumentation, the Old Testament instrumentation used in worship, does seem to have been in one way, typical, and to have passed away just in the same way that priestly choirs have passed away.

01:23:05

But here's the distinction that's important. When we have said that musical accompaniment, instrumental accompaniment is no longer a part of worship, we have not yet settled the question whether it might be a circumstance of worship, whether there might be a place in ordering the congregational singing and applying the congregational singing for the use of a piano or guitar, or a few non -intrusive instruments to help the congregation sing in tune and so forth.

01:23:42

But you see, here's what we're saying. Those are circumstances. If churches do not have instruments, they're not sitting against the regulative principle.

01:23:53

There's no command that we use musical instruments. But if churches do have musical accompaniment,

01:24:00

I think there's good reason to think that that's a legitimate circumstance that may be used with reference to congregational singing.

01:24:09

Let me tell you why. The term psalm in the scripture actually is derived from, is related to the idea of twanging on some sort of musical instrument.

01:24:24

So, also, it's hard to believe that if instrumental accompaniment, an instrumental use of instruments in Old Testament temple worship was even required, that it is somehow for, even if it's not a part of worship, not somehow now forbidden.

01:24:46

That doesn't seem to make sense. There's nothing per se wrong or bad about musical accompaniment, and it would be hard to maintain that given the use of it in Old Testament temple worship.

01:25:01

Yes, it's no longer a part of worship, but it may be a circumstance of worship. We actually have a listener question that goes right along with what you were just saying, or at least it applies to what you were saying.

01:25:17

We have Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and Christian says, since the

01:25:27

Bible is completely silent about melodies, how do we know when a melody is a wrong kind of melody in a worship song and makes it more of a secular or worldly sounding song?

01:25:51

Well, I'm not sure I can give a complete answer to that, but let me say a couple of things. There is a difference, and an important difference, between performance music and congregational singing.

01:26:08

If a tune is so complicated, difficult, that only a professional musician can perform it, can do it, and it's too complicated for the ordinary

01:26:25

Christian in the pew to be able to sing that, then such a tune is inappropriate.

01:26:34

The key thing is, we go right back to our foundations here, congregational singing.

01:26:40

When we have congregational singing, we must have tunes, melodies, that the congregation can sing, and frankly, there's a lot of wonderful performance music out there, by a lot of groups with at least a reformed background, perspective in their music, but some of the things that we may enjoy listening to on the radio, we may enjoy listening to in the privacy of our own home, simply cannot be sung by congregations.

01:27:14

And so, that would be one thing, and you know, can I tell you that may vary in different countries, in different places, but I think that that is one principle.

01:27:29

I suppose another principle, and again, I said, I'm not giving a complete response here,

01:27:35

I'm not sure if I'm capable of one, but if a tune is so closely associated in the public mind with either risque or immoral ideas, or if it's so closely associated with some, you know, advertising ditty in the public mind, then to use a tune like that in worship is,

01:28:14

I think, demeaning to worship. Now, I understand there are some tunes that may have had origins, something like that, that now no longer conjure up the same ideas to the public mind, and I certainly am not denying that, but if something is clearly and presently either an advertising ditty, or if it's associated with something that is at least questionable or risque in its usage elsewhere, well, then

01:28:49

I think we need to avoid it. Now, there may be a lot of other things to say about that, but that's a couple of things

01:28:56

I'd like to say. You actually reminded me of a book that I read years ago, in fact,

01:29:03

I had the author on this program several times, Dr. T. David Gordon, he wrote a book called

01:29:09

Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns, and I remember during the interview, when somebody asked a similar or identical question from the audience, he said, well, imagine what your reaction would be if a loved one of yours died, and you are at the funeral parlor, while people are paying their respects, and someone who wants to pay tribute to your deceased loved one begins playing the kazoo, and how you would react to that frivolous sounding instrument and noise, because kazoo is typically thought of in an amusing and even comical sort of way, so therefore, it would be very inappropriate, unless for some reason, the loved one who has perished was a kazoo fanatic or something like that, that would be a very inappropriate thing to do in a worship service,

01:30:18

I mean, in a funeral service. Yeah, so it's a matter of propriety, isn't it?

01:30:26

But this does not mean that there are not wonderful worship hymns being written today.

01:30:32

Our church sings a number of the Getty hymns, as they're known, and I don't think we should do that to the exclusion of the great tradition of Reformed hymnody that's found in things like the

01:30:48

Trinity Hymnal and the Trinity Hymnal Baptist edition, but I certainly think that there is a place for the mixture of those things, so that we wisely combine old and new.

01:31:01

By the way, Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today by our guest,

01:31:12

Dr. Sam Waldron, How Then Should We Worship, The Regulative Principle and Required Parts of the

01:31:18

Church's Corporate Worship, and so please give us your full mailing address on Long Island so that CVBBS .com

01:31:26

can ship that free book out to you, and also I want to remind our listeners that our friends at 10 of those publishing who have published this book are offering a 50 % discount.

01:31:44

If any of you do not have the opportunity to win a free copy, suppose you're listening, for instance, to this program at a later date from the recordings on the archive of irontripandsironradio .com,

01:32:00

you're not listening live, and you want to order this book, they will give a 50 % discount by mentioning

01:32:07

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and also those of you who have won the book, perhaps you want to order more copies.

01:32:17

Well, I believe this is a limited time offer actually for today, so that you can clarify when you contact 10ofthose .com

01:32:28

to make your purchase. Let's see, we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says,

01:32:40

I'm assuming that you believe it is completely legitimate to go to a

01:32:45

Christian concert or even host a Christian concert at the church building where you serve that features music that is not necessarily conducive to congregational singing but is

01:33:01

God -honoring entertainment. I even know those who are strict observers of exclusive psalmody and a cappella worship who do make the distinction between concerts and special events such as that and the regular gathered corporate worship of God's people.

01:33:24

This is the crucial distinction, and yes, I agree that there are many things that are appropriate.

01:33:31

It's not that they're held in a church building, it's not even if that, although there would be certain limitations, that they're held on the

01:33:39

Lord's Day. The issue we're talking about here, the issue I insist on in my book, is the special presence of God and the corporate worship of God's people.

01:33:51

And this is the orbit, this is the place where the regulative principle applies.

01:34:00

And so, yes, I don't have a problem in principle with what this question, this questioner is asking.

01:34:10

I think I would go to a Christian concert and where things would be performed in song that couldn't be done in congregational singing.

01:34:21

I may get in trouble with this, but oh well.

01:34:29

Reformed Baptists get in trouble for anything. You know,

01:34:35

I think that there's some pretty good and orthodox rap music out there by some well -known rap musicians that have set

01:34:47

Christian doctrine to rap music. I would listen to such music.

01:34:53

I might even consider going to a concert performed by such people, but I would be entirely opposed to the use of rap music in worship because it's not congregational singing.

01:35:06

And I remember writing a blog about this.

01:35:16

It was like something from The Empty Chair because I had to leave a conference where I would have been on a panel discussion, and I listened to the panel discussion later, and I didn't think this distinction was being made clear enough, so I commented upon it from The Empty Chair and talked about rap music.

01:35:36

So, I guess if people know me well enough, they already know what I think about that. But I mean, that's performance music, as is a lot of the other things by popular

01:35:48

Christian musicians that really doesn't translate very well or at all into congregational singing.

01:35:56

In fact, I have had conversations with theologically reformed rappers or performers of hip -hop,

01:36:05

Christian hip -hop, who are very biblically saturating their lyrics and stand out against the backdrop of most rap or hip -hop and are much more

01:36:22

Christ -honoring, Christ -focused and biblical, and they agree with what you said.

01:36:28

Some of them, I'm saying, that I've had conversations with, that they themselves don't believe it should be in the regular corporate worship of a church, but rather than for special concerts and things like that.

01:36:41

Yeah. The key issue here is, again, the special presence of God in the church and the fact that God is pleased to regulate his church in a different way than life in general in the world is regulated.

01:36:58

All life in the world is under the moral law of God and the Ten Commandments and ought to abide by that and not to violate those things.

01:37:09

But within the boundaries of God's general laws, moral laws, there is great liberty.

01:37:16

The way he governs his church is much more restrictive. Now, one of the things

01:37:23

I try to answer in my book, Chris, is why is that the case? That's why

01:37:29

I opened the book with a chapter entitled Holy Church, in which I argue that the church is holy in a way that the rest of life, in a way that even other divine institutions, like the family and the church, are not holy.

01:37:46

And that it is because of this special holiness of the church that God is pleased to regulate what goes on in his church in a way that is different the way he regulates life in the rest of the world.

01:38:03

And I think that's one of the, you asked me some of the reasons why I wrote the book.

01:38:08

One of the reasons I wrote it is because I wanted to underscore this principle. It's not just the regular principle of worship, which says too little and says too much in some ways.

01:38:21

It's the regular, regulative principle of the church. And this regulative principle of the church applies not just to its corporate worship, the formal worship of the church.

01:38:31

It also applies, and this is suggested by the confession, to the government of the church.

01:38:37

We also do not have a right to add offices and our own ideas and our products of our own imagination to how the church is governed.

01:38:50

And so, that's why 1 -6 there are some issues related to the government and worship of the church that have circumstances related to them that have to be handled by the light of nature.

01:39:02

What it's implying there though is that the parts of church government are prescribed by God and we must not add to those parts either when it comes to the government of the church.

01:39:13

Well, we have to go to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question, send it in as soon as you can because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:39:22

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Sam Waldron after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:39:43

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

01:39:51

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

01:40:04

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

01:40:17

And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

01:40:25

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

01:40:33

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

01:40:38

Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

01:40:44

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

01:40:49

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor Booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

01:40:55

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

01:41:17

The Prince of Preachers, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, once said, growing a beard is a habit most natural, scriptural, manly, and beneficial.

01:41:25

Grace and peace to all the Iron Sharpens Iron listeners. This is Tony with thestandardbeardcare .com.

01:41:31

That's right, thestandardbeardcare .com is a Christ -exalting, better -known, and simple name in beard care.

01:41:37

So if you have a beard, know a guy with a beard, or ladies, if you're married to a man with a beard, head over to thestandardbeardcare .com.

01:41:44

Check out the vast array of all -natural, handcrafted products to make that beard scriptural, manly, and beneficial.

01:41:52

And when you do so, you will help to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. When you use the promo code IRON at checkout, you will receive free shipping to anywhere in the lower 48, and 10 % of your donations will go back to Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:42:07

So head over to thestandardbeardcare .com, where the standard is the standard.

01:42:40

Sticking with, or switching to, the NASB. NASB is my

01:43:11

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the

01:43:18

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the

01:43:27

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the

01:43:35

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the

01:43:43

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

01:43:49

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:43:55

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:44:04

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:44:15

Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

01:44:21

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

01:44:26

Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:44:36

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

01:44:45

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

01:44:52

Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

01:45:01

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

01:45:07

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

01:45:15

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:45:22

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

01:45:39

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:45:44

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

01:45:53

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:46:06

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:46:13

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:46:26

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:46:35

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:46:43

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

01:46:49

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:47:01

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

01:47:08

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

01:47:16

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

01:47:24

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

01:47:35

That's why Truth Love Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

01:47:41

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

01:47:53

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. I'm Dr.

01:48:06

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:48:16

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

01:48:24

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:48:41

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:48:48

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:48:57

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

01:49:04

that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:49:13

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:49:39

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

01:49:48

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

01:49:54

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

01:50:00

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

01:50:06

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

01:50:21

Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

01:50:38

King James Bible. This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

01:50:49

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

01:50:55

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

01:51:04

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

01:51:12

You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

01:51:20

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

01:51:27

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Puritan Reformed is a bible -believing kingdom -building devil -fighting church.

01:51:40

We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine in practice preserved in scripture alone.

01:51:46

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

01:51:53

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

01:52:06

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

01:52:12

Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

01:52:18

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

01:52:26

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. Puritanphx .com.

01:52:39

We here at Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio praise

01:52:53

God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the

01:53:01

American Gem Society, Jewels of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

01:53:08

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly for the purpose of according to your imagination and specifications,

01:53:19

Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step by step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.

01:53:35

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

01:53:43

From rough design to digital model, to photo realistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

01:53:59

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.

01:54:07

Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today.

01:54:13

Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,

01:54:20

Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:54:33

And don't forget folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering

01:54:39

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio 100 % of the profits from any sale made to an

01:54:45

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener of a piece of jewelry valued at $100 or more, whether it's a piece of jewelry they already have in stock at royaldiadem .com

01:54:56

or if you're having a custom design piece of jewelry like an engagement ring or turning your church logo or your seminary logo or your denomination logo into a piece of jewelry or anything else your imagination and creativity can conjure up, if you mention

01:55:12

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you will get this piece of jewelry not only masterfully created, but all the profits, 100 % of the profits will go to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for a limited time.

01:55:25

We don't know when they're going to pull the plug on that offer, so please go to royaldiadem .com as quickly as possible and always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arns and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:55:36

We have another anonymous listener, Dr. Waldron, who says, I know of very conservative churches, even reformed churches, that do not believe in women in leadership, commonly called complementarianism, who do, nonetheless, allow a woman to lead in worship because they do not view that in any way, shape, or form as a position of authority.

01:56:05

What is your position on that? Yeah, well, I certainly don't agree with women positions of leadership and worship.

01:56:17

Actually, the strongest argument for women not being pastors, not the only, but the strongest argument for women not being pastors, are the prohibitions of 1st

01:56:28

Timothy 2 and 1st Corinthians 14, that women should not speak or teach in worship.

01:56:40

And leading in the worship of congregational singing and so forth is, frankly, leadership.

01:56:49

And frequently, you find them reading the scriptures, you find them leading in prayer, and you find them doing all sorts of things that are undeniably leadership positions in the church and leadership positions in worship.

01:57:10

I cannot conscience it. We would not do it. I'm not saying that if someone has a well -organized and helpful gospel team up front, that a woman might not be one of them.

01:57:29

But I am saying that the leadership of that team, if it's to conform to scripture, must be male.

01:57:38

This is what I think 1st Corinthians 14 and 1st Timothy 2 clearly require.

01:57:45

And it's a great question, and it's very sad that there's so much fuzzy thinking on this.

01:57:52

And it's one of those areas where you see exegesis of 1st

01:57:58

Corinthians 14 and 1st Timothy 2 being proposed that are plainly the result of our cultural drift and not a fair treatment or a just treatment of what

01:58:09

Paul meant to say. So I'm a complementarian, and I think that that means that not only the offices of the church, but leadership and worship must be masculine.

01:58:22

And we are out of time. I want to make sure that our listeners have all the information that they need today.

01:58:29

First of all, for more details on Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary, go to cbtseminary .org.

01:58:38

You're also going to find out about the conference that is titled just as the book we've been addressing is,

01:58:46

How Then Should We Worship? And that conference is being held March 23rd through the 25th in Louisville, Kentucky.

01:58:55

And that information again is at cbtseminary .org. Also, do not forget about the offer that 10 of Those Publishing is offering, 50 % discount on the price of this book.

01:59:11

So go to 10ofthose .com. I do not know how long they are going to offer that to our listeners.

01:59:18

So I would advise you to go to that website as quickly as possible. And I just want to thank you so much,

01:59:26

Dr. Waldron. You have been a joy as you always are to interview. I look forward to your frequent return to this program.

01:59:34

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater